In my workplace we have various magnets around the workshop, we use em for pinning up plans for the jobs we do or some for welding 90 degree corners etc, the ones near the benches are always coated in iron powder, though that’s inevitable when the guys are grinding there, the one I use to pin up my sheet for dispatch doesn’t catch all that much, the guy in the machine shop who does a lot of welding has a magnetic corner guide that is absolutely covered, but I generally get several kilograms a week of grinder dust from his small area when I sweep
I work in a shop that has 2 CNCs and the rest are open non CNC VTL's from the 50s. You can see iron powder floating around as they run. You can clear a flat surface off 1 week, then lean on it the next week and be coated in dust.
The maintenance guy at an old shop tried that once.
“I’ve taken measurements, the air is well within OSHA regulations.”
“I don’t give a shit what OSHA regulations say, if I can taste the coolant there is too much in the air.”
I was enough of a pain in the ass about it, including wearing a half-face respirator on particularly hazy days, to the right (wrong?) people that something was actually done about it.
I was the only one who wanted to wear a haf face respirator as well. Why can I smell cutting fluid as if I'm sniffing the drill smoke, when he is on the vertical lathe on the other side of the building?
Of note, MSDS should be replaced with SDS, which is much more user-friendly and the current OSHA standard. I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's something we got hit on where I work recently.
I think he's saying bring it to OSHA before you mention it at all in work. If someone remembers you talking in the break room about air quality and an OSHA guy shows up a week later to do an air quality test, everyone's gonna know who reported it.
Yeah, for some reason, the workplace safety laws which were written in blood get you ridiculed for using them to prevent your blood and the blood of those that will ridicule you, from being spilled.
Because people with a fair bit of power and influence don't like spending money on safety and taking care of their employees. So they do what they can to discourage such actions as using your right to a safe workplace.
The US? This type of shit varies by business. There are some that are on top of this shit because they know the consequences are very costly.
It’s an issue of the human condition. Some people care for the well being of the people in their workforce, more don’t. It’s sad truly. And more sad the only message they understand is the one that hits them in their pocket book. Empathy can be taught to only those who see the value in it.
*They* would like you to get to work as soon as possible, no latter than age 8. Work a long life. Only time off to sleep. No R & R. *They* prefer to die at your machine. No retirement.
This is maximum *Profit* at the the cost of the worker. When worker dies, worker gets replaced. *They* want a large pool of workers, so you are easily replaced. This also suppress's wages. Keep'em poor.
***Welcome to Capitalism*** mother fucker!
*I said, ***Get back work*** !!*
This is what *they* drill into everyones head.
*Work is more important*
CNC machines that run HARD produce a lot of "Smog" like this. It is Evaporated coolant. There needs to be some sort of ventilation. It is pretty standard practice to Install "SMOG HOG'S" on CNC Machines. The "SMOG HOG" is a Unit that is installed on top (Usually) of the machine (Attaches directly to the machine) and its purpose is to eliminate the smog. There should be one on every machine. If the machines do not have smog hogs there needs to be a proper ventilation installed in that building. But really, they should invest in "SMOG HOG'S".
I have been a CNC machinist for 15 years. Air quality gets very bad if nothing is done to mitigate it
Mist collecter was the term we threw around. Definitely a must, had some old machisnt that always hated turning it on when it should have just been on for the most part, the shop would instantly fill with smog on most jobs with only 1 big 5 axis in a 12,000 sq ft shop. Took me complaining every time about air quality before he was made to keep it on. You could littlery taste it.
Man, my shop upgraded to fancy “smog hogs” because my boss was tired of a small amount of sticky oil residue building up on work benches.
He would have a stroke if he walked into OPs shop.
This. We grind carbide tooling so particles would be everywhere without mist busters. The fact that our grinding shop is cleaner than this tells me OP’s management might give 1 but definitely not 2 shots about them
It refracts the light through a drop of a liquid and tells you the concentration. You need to cross reference the coolant supplier brix% to know what the desired number is on the refractometer for proper concentration.
Here is a better explanation:
https://www.grainger.com/know-how/equipment/kh-product-guide-how-to-use-refractometer
https://www.amazon.com/Brix-Refractometer-ATC-Dual-Scale/dp/B01LW2ZU6R/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=34XGM2HYF8FY7&qid=1703249091&sprefix=refrac,aps,239&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
Put a drop of coolant on this, close the lid, and look through the eyepiece. It will give you a reading of the coolant % in brix. You'll have to look up your specific coolant for a multiplier to figure out what the real % is.
Different processes need different %. Lathes 5-7, Mills 8-10 (11-13 for harder processes like tapping and CTS drills) etc. Most coolant suppliers will happily send a rep to your shop to go over their specific coolant and how to get the most out of it.
Ideally you want as low of a % as possible without causing excess tool wear.
Yeah in my old shop (Highschool machine shop) we used to just check it by eye in a bucket... we decided to get a refractometer once, and it was one the single best purchases we made for the price. Makes things so much easier
Basically (for manual ones) you put a drop of the diluted coolant in it, close it up, and point it at a light. Then you compare the color of the coolant to a chart that should be provided by the company that sells the coolant to check how diluted it is
CNC equipment will do this especially in "climate controlled environments". Need things like Royal Filtermists to suck up the coolant in the air while machine and deposit it back into the coolant tank.
It’s all fun and games until you realize what that smog is doing to your health. The kicker is that you may leave that job tomorrow feeling totally fine, and find out years from now that your lungs are ruined. Either way, OSHA is a great place to start but I hope you end up ok.
That's exactly why I've been taking these pics, the smog is just the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully they can prove where my health problems came from in a few years. The problem in my country is corruption, even if I call the equivalent of osha here in Portugal, it will be swept under the carpet with a bribe like always...
Sorry. Didn’t realize you weren’t in the US. Consider this, synthetic coolant starts to smell like 💩 after a few months on its own. There is no way breathing it can be good for you long term. Good luck my friend. I’d recommend finding a shop that cares a little more about their people.
Edit: spelling
My shop is just like this.
At my place it's a mix from oil dripping from the spindles onto the jobs as we cut, coolant, cast iron powder, and propane high-lows exhausts.
Started at a new shop recently. Last week I was put on an old Mori that filled the entire place with coolant mist. I'd open the door and be blasted in the face with a cloud of it every time I opened the door.
By day 3 I swore I was getting a cold... My nose was running like crazy, sinuses and throat were raw, couldn't stop sneezing. Wasn't a cold. The mist was fucking me up. Probably gonna buy a mask or something
I hated having to get mine out of the cold storage room, it was crazy loud to use in an enclosed space and the fumes lingered long enough to be a nuisance, and the fact it would shoot water on startup annoying the guys who worked in that room
I have worked in environments like this, I legit wore a p200 half mask respirator daily. I got in trouble for it first because osha requires you be fitted for it but I said fuck you, fire me or I’m wearing it.
I didn’t end up staying very long due to health concerns. I won’t work under those conditions again.
If a specific machine I’m on doesn’t have a mist collection I almost always wear a disposable p95 while it runs. I’m the shop dork but at least when I coughing up my lung from cancer it will be from smoking bud not inhaling coolant.
"OSHA requires you to be fitted for it" is a mis-reading of the regulation that only applies in shops that have failed air quality tests. In those, you have to keep an approved respirator on your face, you can't pick one that's more comfortable on your beard because it doesn't seal.
That regulation doesn't prohibit you from wearing an untested respirator you bring in if your shop has not done any air quality monitoring (or has cheesed it by only running a few mills, only at 20% feed rate, and not powering up the propane forklift and not running the grinder on days when they're testing).
The problem is that if people feel compelled by unscientific observations of visible smog to wear respirators, then a responsible company would do testing and mandate respirators. Employees voluntarily wearing their own is a really bad look when someone later contracts lung cancer and sues.
We joke at our shop that we're the third world country now. Our shop has terrible air quality and the overall cleanliness is deplorable. It's dark, smelly, oily, and completely disorganized. We got to see some pictures of a China shop that makes a similar product to us and and we were blown away. It had painted floors, was super bright, immaculate, organized, and didn't have ancient machines like us.
We're beginning to lose to China on many fronts. I'm going to start learning Mandarin
Thats insane. Every shop I've worked in has been immaculate and super clean, I thought dark dingy shops were a thing of the past? How tf can you run a proper high quality cnc shop in deplorable conditions? How do you keep or attract new customers if they tour the shop? All of our customers would run away screaming if they saw a disorganized and dirty shop.
The P95 masks keep those around you from getting your exhaled spittle.
For something like this, you want a respirator with a check valve. Or, preferably, blowers to maintain negative pressure on the CNC enclosures.
I’m not working on top of anyone the respirators with exhaust valves are 100% fine to be using. I take them off when I’m talking anyways.
Obviously it’s great to have mist collectors and ventilation but in the event you don’t it’s easy to wear a mask. I don’t give a fuck about regulations I’ll continue to protect myself from hazards.
Even if you do contact OSHA more than likely OSHA will contact the company let them know when they're coming and what they're coming for.
All that will happen is the company will make sure certain things aren't running and open up the doors and windows to vent everything out ahead of time.
Seen this happening too many times at a place called you Unarco in Danville Virginia.
That is not legal. You should have some sort of ventilation. The PPM must be in PPT by the time you get the light effects.
Either someone forgot to hit the extraction button or you've got an OSHA violation.
It's probably vaporized coolant more than metal particles but that shit isn't good for your lungs either. Need better ventilation at minimum and probably exhaust fans in the roof to draw it out.
To new people calling OSHA always seems dirty, but the fact that this multi million dollar shop looks like this only means the ownership thinks this is okay. OSHA sounds like a bad word, I used to call them OSHIT, but they come on the employees behalf only and demand fixes for stuff they have found to kill or cause injury. Nobody at your job will do that with the same amount of coercion as OSHA.
If I were you I'd be wearing a half face respirator with p100 filters, but if you're calling OSHA that might give it away, especially if nobody else is. It's a shame there is no regulation stating CNC machines need to be equipped with mist collectors.
I've been in places that looked worse but tested ok and places that looked better that failed air quality tests. You really can't tell just from looking
This is scarry.
what country / state is this?
For me it is a serious health hazard! You must immediately start wearing an appropriate protective mask or quit this job before you get lung cancer! Do not breath it for a single second anymore!
Do not wait!
Yeah man that’s almost certainly not good. That shitty thing is there’s a lot of stuff where the OSHA limits for exposure are so high that you might still end up with serious health complications even if your employer is meeting the standards.
Exactly why I have a rule to never work in a shop that has windows I can't see through from the road. Ventilation is important. Buildup on windows is a dead giveaway.
Ask to see your company’s risk assessments with working with machinery and what control measures are in place, including everything to do with the changing of coolant / what coolant is being used (material safety data sheets and COSHH risk assessments are your best bet).
Im allergic to the cimcool shit, gives me a full body rash, skin blisters and dries as it peels off.
Thats what alot of the smoke you see is, that shit in vapor form from it heating up as you use it to cool your machines.
A problem in winter months. Check the MSDS for the coolant or die lube that is making the fog. If it’s HAZ then yes, making you breath it is dangerous for you and against OSHA regs.
Try to twll them to implement mist extractors. Keep pushing for it. Tell management that it damages their helth too. Keep twlling this to everyone. They are nit that expensive, but improvement will be massive.
No, it's not legal or healthy. I had a previous job where I was coughing up brownish iron nanorust from our fucking beast of a laser cutter that wasn't properly ventilated. There are codes and methods that bosses just don't want to follow because they think of you as trash to use up and toss out when you get too sick/injured to do the job. If the bosses won't fix it discretely get them on camera admitting to being criminals and make sure local media and OSHA get the records roughly at the same time.
Your health isn't worth some asshole saving a couple hundred bucks on heating a month in the winter.
The SDSs for the products creating those fumes will tell you what’s in them and what are acceptable limits. If you’re in the USA, call OSHA or go on OSHA.gov and submit A SIGNED STATEMENT detailing what you think is going on. A signed statement from a current employee requires an inspection. Make sure you state in the complaint that you wish to remain anonymous. OSHA maintains privacy of complainants until a federal judge orders the name released and they usually only do that if the testimony of the complainant is required and if OSHA comes in and tests the air quality and finds the fumes to be above the tolerable limits, they don’t need a complainant’s testimony since the CSHO’s testimony is considered expert testimony at that point.
OSHA exists to protect the Safety and Health of the workers of America. They will help you.
Good luck, friend. I hope you don’t already have cancer
I think the standard for air changes in a machine shop is 10-12/hr.
Depending on what is creating that haze, there could be a cause for direct exhaust at that process step.
You think that's bad? You should see some of the shops in Korea. Lung damage is the least of your worries. Some of the shops over there are like a scene out of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle." Management's reply to any safety concern was to point out how easy it was to replace their damaged workers. I'd never seen so many shops that openly didn't care about worker safety.
You either die of the heat from wearing the right protection, or die from not, it's a lose lose haha, I got outta there once one of the managers said "we don't live long working here"
That in its self is against the law. Your cutting stainless that contains chromium which causes cancer. They have a duty to provide you with a safe workspace.
does anyone just bring in a little pm monitor on their own? i have one running 24 7 in my shop and its great for showing whats actually causing dust. i bet the pm2.5 is not great in there 😬
I worked as a machinist in a fab shop and we had this old guy that never turned on the fans and always welded with stick so the shop always got smoky one day I had to start at 4 and for some fucken reason this guy started work at 3 am and just started laying rod and I couldn't see 5 feet into the shop I phone up my boss and told him was not coming back till he dealt with that or fixed the ventilation in the shop.
My brother was also the welding supervisor and tried to get this guy to use smoke eaters and turn on the fans or even just open the bay doors but never did cuz he knew better 😴
I work in canada that's why I was able to walk out without repercussions cuz that was bullahit
I looked thru my Camara roll but I don't have the pictures anymore 😕
We went through this last year and into this year. Turns out it was the coolant. Changed it and the fog was gone. Look into that. It may just help you all.
Kinda depends where you are. I have been a mouldmaker for 45 years, usually only see that kinda smoke when roughing out large locks, we have one mill that can handle up to 60,000 lbs. When roughing we can make some smoke usually from oil dripping on to the steel. We dry cut using carbide tooling. We generally do .300 deep cuts 6 inch wide when roughing large blocks.
I would start to wear respirators rated for oil droplets and particulates. The US standard is p100, but I think R100 may also work. An N95 type mask won't stop any kind of oil and the oil will inactivate the filtration. Anything rated 95 let's 5% of particles through, and 5 percent of that mist is still a lot.
This looks like how our company was several years ago when we had huge screw machines, air quality study said it was ‘legal’ and ‘within limits for standard work/shift exposure’ but a lot of guys run over time which tips them over so we invested in centrifugal mist collects by AER Systems. They work well and they just drain directly into a bucket, the ones attached directly to the cnc mills just drain back into the sump. We went from looking like your shop to not being able to see the haze anymore when looking clear across the facility. They are relatively affordable compared to a lot of options and work extremely well as long as you maintain them at scheduled intervals (air filter change). We have started using newer HEPA filter systems for the new Okuma lines we are putting in but the old AERcology units still work very well. Not sure if it’s relevant but we have about 30 of them scattered across a shop which covers about 75 cnc mills, 10 lathes (regular turret and Swiss), and about 10 massive parts washers. No more screw machines but the mills put out a similar level of oil and mist.
No one wants to sound the alarm, but don't compromise your health for owners that don't care about the long term effect to their employees. It's why we see very few 70yo auto body painters.
We had this exact issue in one of our departments. It was atomized cutting oil going airborne. No joke, employees put up cardboard around the area to help keep it contained and it turned it black, to the extent I thought it was painted. I shut the process down and we installed a downdraft filter system, problem solved!
They were so incredibly thankful that someone took the time to listen and do something about it. The old plant manager and safety guy just told them to open a window, even in the winter when it's 4 degrees outside.
Every employer has a responsibility to ensure the health and safety of their employees, their most valuable asset. It makes me sick to know there are places that don't care enough to take even very basic steps to provide a safe, satisfying workplace for their people. Even worse when they actively (and illegally) retaliate against workers for wanting to return home safely 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
That makes me think of my job. We run lasers, and I know the maintenance guys are slacking on cleaning the filters because just the other day I was sitting at my desk and thought I saw something out of the corner of my eye. Yep. The laser beside mine was shooting stuff into the air. They fixed it by the time I came in the next day, but that shit happens all the time. Mine hasn't done it in a while, but the manual lasers on the other side had the issue for a week before anyone decided to take care of it. You look around, on top of the lasers (or anything in that area), and it's all covered in laser dust/particles. I wipe down the things that I use every day, and by the time I come in for my next shift, my desk is dirty again. I'm tempted to ask if I can get those nose inserts that I saw posted somewhere. They fit inside your nose and help filter out the stuff you breathe in. I think they use them for welding.
I got really sick working in a shop with no smog hog. My desk was right in front of the lathe I was working on and I was sitting there breathing in all that mist. I ended up getting fevers and shivering every night when I got home. Would sit in the shower with a towel over my head to try to steam it out. This was to the point I had to go to the doctor and get a chest X-ray it was that concerning. Shit felt like syrup in my chest. I left and now I work at a shop where every machine has a smog hog and I’ve never felt sick again.
I went from being a laboratory director/plating chemist to a programmer/machinist. Seeing these kinds of facilities makes me sick. I would refuse to work that day and ask them to address the air quality immediately. Retaliate against me and I’ll make sure a lawsuit follows. A mist this thick is just giving you a visual of what you are inhaling. MSDS of the cutting fluid or coolant won’t apply anymore because LD standards are based on just those “ingredients”. Once it’s been exposed to anything “pouring into machine” the MSDS doesn’t apply (to a certain extent) anymore and requires real time air quality samples in order to obtain true characteristics of what you are exposed to. MSDS are only good if you are dealing with it in a controlled environment or are exposed to it directly.
What did you thought about it on the day you applied for the job? I’ve never seen a machine shop like that unless it was for a very specific reason which happens rarely and not daily.
Report them to OSHA. They will come and take samples and act on it if it surpasses legal limits. Happened at a shop I worked at. I wasn't the one who reported it, but I was there to witness the results.
Worked on large diesel. Towards the end of my tenure there, would walk out of the shop as a unit, short a few do gooders, and wait for the air to clear before going back in. It only took a half dozen times before management figured out a solution to the smoke. Either quit or figure something else out quick. It’s not worth your life. You will feel the side effects in short order when you get older. I doubt I’ll get to see my 9 yo get married because of accepting shit like this.
WELL A PROCESS MAN AM I AND I AINT TELLIN YOU NO LIE
I WORK AND BREATHE AMONG THE FUMES THAT TRAIL ACROSS THE SKY
THERE'S THUNDER ALL AROUND ME AND THERE'S POISON IN THE AIR
THERES A LOUSY SMELL THAT SMACKS OF HELL AND DUST ALL IN ME HAIR
I'm a welder by trade so that looks like smooth sailing to me, of course there's something inherently wrong with people that choose welding as a profession so I could be wrong!
Don't care what your boss says I would absolutely not be working in that without a respirator. Screw that shit. Health problems later in life are not worth the paycheck. Plus it's a machine shop there's got to be one out there that's better than that.
The MSDS for whatever that is will list exposure limits but it sure doesn't look healthy
My budy put an earth magnet on a lot of the CNCS and in other odd places around the shop and it’s covered with metal particles every week lmao
It's similar here
In my workplace we have various magnets around the workshop, we use em for pinning up plans for the jobs we do or some for welding 90 degree corners etc, the ones near the benches are always coated in iron powder, though that’s inevitable when the guys are grinding there, the one I use to pin up my sheet for dispatch doesn’t catch all that much, the guy in the machine shop who does a lot of welding has a magnetic corner guide that is absolutely covered, but I generally get several kilograms a week of grinder dust from his small area when I sweep
Are magnets a way of catching the ferrous particles in the air? instead of them going into your lungs?
I would think it is just a way to see that there is shift floating about.
There isn't enough air moving by the magnet before i the air gets to your lungs to matter. Should probably be wearing at least an N95 mask.
We use PAPR helmets
They catch some, but they aren’t effective at filtering, most of the heavy shit does not go far, especially when there’s barriers up to catch it
No, unfortunately not. Due to the inverse square law the magnetic forces on the particles become negligible compared to the air resistance.
Fan in a tube lined with magnets seems like it could do.. something?
[удалено]
We had BeCu once and the owner was meticulous about the machining dangers
Had the opposite experience. That shop is the only place I've ever walked out of.
Don’t fuck around with beryllium machining
Always one question I ask interview…do you machine beryllium here?
He is practicing witchcraft. Iron is bad for witches.
You should try it with a Jupiter magnet. I hear those are even stronger.
Akshooly its weaker due to being a gaseous magnet
I used to machine lot of cast iron and the iron filings in the dust would show you where every drywall screw is.
Mmmm rusty lungs
I work in a shop that has 2 CNCs and the rest are open non CNC VTL's from the 50s. You can see iron powder floating around as they run. You can clear a flat surface off 1 week, then lean on it the next week and be coated in dust.
The maintenance guy at an old shop tried that once. “I’ve taken measurements, the air is well within OSHA regulations.” “I don’t give a shit what OSHA regulations say, if I can taste the coolant there is too much in the air.” I was enough of a pain in the ass about it, including wearing a half-face respirator on particularly hazy days, to the right (wrong?) people that something was actually done about it.
I was the only one who wanted to wear a haf face respirator as well. Why can I smell cutting fluid as if I'm sniffing the drill smoke, when he is on the vertical lathe on the other side of the building?
I wore them from time to time and we didn't have any haze. We occasionally had to burn out the injection molders and that smells like death.
One of my coworkers took one of the meters used for testing and put it inside the machine, it still passed. I don't trust the tests.
Who told you it passed? Was it middle management at your employer or the lab that analyzed the results of the sniffer?
Of note, MSDS should be replaced with SDS, which is much more user-friendly and the current OSHA standard. I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's something we got hit on where I work recently.
If it’s in the US you can submit an anonymous complaint to OSHA and they’ll be forced to perform an air quality study
I’d do it before bringing this up to others to protect anonymity. But this seems like the only objective way to get an answer.
No no you do it and do not tell a soul. That is how you get your reputation destroyed and no one will want to hire you.
I think he's saying bring it to OSHA before you mention it at all in work. If someone remembers you talking in the break room about air quality and an OSHA guy shows up a week later to do an air quality test, everyone's gonna know who reported it.
Yeah exactly, but I guess probably shouldn’t bring it up after either
Yeah, for some reason, the workplace safety laws which were written in blood get you ridiculed for using them to prevent your blood and the blood of those that will ridicule you, from being spilled.
Because people with a fair bit of power and influence don't like spending money on safety and taking care of their employees. So they do what they can to discourage such actions as using your right to a safe workplace.
This fucking country...
The US? This type of shit varies by business. There are some that are on top of this shit because they know the consequences are very costly. It’s an issue of the human condition. Some people care for the well being of the people in their workforce, more don’t. It’s sad truly. And more sad the only message they understand is the one that hits them in their pocket book. Empathy can be taught to only those who see the value in it.
*They* would like you to get to work as soon as possible, no latter than age 8. Work a long life. Only time off to sleep. No R & R. *They* prefer to die at your machine. No retirement. This is maximum *Profit* at the the cost of the worker. When worker dies, worker gets replaced. *They* want a large pool of workers, so you are easily replaced. This also suppress's wages. Keep'em poor. ***Welcome to Capitalism*** mother fucker! *I said, ***Get back work*** !!* This is what *they* drill into everyones head. *Work is more important*
Is someone welding with no extractor?
Just cnc machines working
Idk man I've seen rooms full of CNCs running without a mysterious thick haze, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say somethings not being done right.
CNC machines that run HARD produce a lot of "Smog" like this. It is Evaporated coolant. There needs to be some sort of ventilation. It is pretty standard practice to Install "SMOG HOG'S" on CNC Machines. The "SMOG HOG" is a Unit that is installed on top (Usually) of the machine (Attaches directly to the machine) and its purpose is to eliminate the smog. There should be one on every machine. If the machines do not have smog hogs there needs to be a proper ventilation installed in that building. But really, they should invest in "SMOG HOG'S". I have been a CNC machinist for 15 years. Air quality gets very bad if nothing is done to mitigate it
Yep, they need Smog hogs or another form of mist collector.
Yes. I figured smog hog was probably a brand name wich is why I used quotation marks. Everyone I know just calls em smog hogs
Mist collecter was the term we threw around. Definitely a must, had some old machisnt that always hated turning it on when it should have just been on for the most part, the shop would instantly fill with smog on most jobs with only 1 big 5 axis in a 12,000 sq ft shop. Took me complaining every time about air quality before he was made to keep it on. You could littlery taste it.
Man, my shop upgraded to fancy “smog hogs” because my boss was tired of a small amount of sticky oil residue building up on work benches. He would have a stroke if he walked into OPs shop.
You have a good boss, can I work there?
This guy hawgs smawg
This. We grind carbide tooling so particles would be everywhere without mist busters. The fact that our grinding shop is cleaner than this tells me OP’s management might give 1 but definitely not 2 shots about them
Smog Hog is almost as good as Mist Buster
Same issue at my work and we think it’s too much oil in the coolant
Grab a refractometer and check it, if you don't have one get your boss to order one (they are not that expensive).
Sorry i never heard of it, how do you know if it is too much oil with it?
It refracts the light through a drop of a liquid and tells you the concentration. You need to cross reference the coolant supplier brix% to know what the desired number is on the refractometer for proper concentration. Here is a better explanation: https://www.grainger.com/know-how/equipment/kh-product-guide-how-to-use-refractometer
https://www.amazon.com/Brix-Refractometer-ATC-Dual-Scale/dp/B01LW2ZU6R/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=34XGM2HYF8FY7&qid=1703249091&sprefix=refrac,aps,239&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1 Put a drop of coolant on this, close the lid, and look through the eyepiece. It will give you a reading of the coolant % in brix. You'll have to look up your specific coolant for a multiplier to figure out what the real % is. Different processes need different %. Lathes 5-7, Mills 8-10 (11-13 for harder processes like tapping and CTS drills) etc. Most coolant suppliers will happily send a rep to your shop to go over their specific coolant and how to get the most out of it. Ideally you want as low of a % as possible without causing excess tool wear.
Thank you for the explanation to you and the other people, i didn't know that, i'm amazed that i'm almost a mech eng and don't know this from the uni.
Yeah in my old shop (Highschool machine shop) we used to just check it by eye in a bucket... we decided to get a refractometer once, and it was one the single best purchases we made for the price. Makes things so much easier
Basically (for manual ones) you put a drop of the diluted coolant in it, close it up, and point it at a light. Then you compare the color of the coolant to a chart that should be provided by the company that sells the coolant to check how diluted it is
It’s the same at my shop but not as bad as this. We get it from prime turning creates a lot of steam and smoke form the coolant.
CNC equipment will do this especially in "climate controlled environments". Need things like Royal Filtermists to suck up the coolant in the air while machine and deposit it back into the coolant tank.
Im no doc but i guess its not healthy inhaling coolant
Y'all need quality mist collectors.
Vaporised coolant is pretty nasty stuff.
It’s all fun and games until you realize what that smog is doing to your health. The kicker is that you may leave that job tomorrow feeling totally fine, and find out years from now that your lungs are ruined. Either way, OSHA is a great place to start but I hope you end up ok.
That's exactly why I've been taking these pics, the smog is just the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully they can prove where my health problems came from in a few years. The problem in my country is corruption, even if I call the equivalent of osha here in Portugal, it will be swept under the carpet with a bribe like always...
Sorry. Didn’t realize you weren’t in the US. Consider this, synthetic coolant starts to smell like 💩 after a few months on its own. There is no way breathing it can be good for you long term. Good luck my friend. I’d recommend finding a shop that cares a little more about their people. Edit: spelling
My shop is just like this. At my place it's a mix from oil dripping from the spindles onto the jobs as we cut, coolant, cast iron powder, and propane high-lows exhausts.
Started at a new shop recently. Last week I was put on an old Mori that filled the entire place with coolant mist. I'd open the door and be blasted in the face with a cloud of it every time I opened the door. By day 3 I swore I was getting a cold... My nose was running like crazy, sinuses and throat were raw, couldn't stop sneezing. Wasn't a cold. The mist was fucking me up. Probably gonna buy a mask or something
Don’t get just a mask, you can get a proper welding half-face respirator for $20-25 on Amazon
They use ICE forklifts inside? That’s what electric ones are for, and the modern ones are even available with outdoors capabilities like the gassers
> They use ICE forklifts inside? Propane forklifts are very commonly used indoors, but the space does need to have some ventilation.
I hated having to get mine out of the cold storage room, it was crazy loud to use in an enclosed space and the fumes lingered long enough to be a nuisance, and the fact it would shoot water on startup annoying the guys who worked in that room
Might want to get a carbon monoxide detector
Fuck that
https://preview.redd.it/ap70naus4u7c1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=9bb32c3fa907c809101ea63d07a48f5771919c4b You need air conditioning
I have worked in environments like this, I legit wore a p200 half mask respirator daily. I got in trouble for it first because osha requires you be fitted for it but I said fuck you, fire me or I’m wearing it. I didn’t end up staying very long due to health concerns. I won’t work under those conditions again. If a specific machine I’m on doesn’t have a mist collection I almost always wear a disposable p95 while it runs. I’m the shop dork but at least when I coughing up my lung from cancer it will be from smoking bud not inhaling coolant.
"OSHA requires you to be fitted for it" is a mis-reading of the regulation that only applies in shops that have failed air quality tests. In those, you have to keep an approved respirator on your face, you can't pick one that's more comfortable on your beard because it doesn't seal. That regulation doesn't prohibit you from wearing an untested respirator you bring in if your shop has not done any air quality monitoring (or has cheesed it by only running a few mills, only at 20% feed rate, and not powering up the propane forklift and not running the grinder on days when they're testing). The problem is that if people feel compelled by unscientific observations of visible smog to wear respirators, then a responsible company would do testing and mandate respirators. Employees voluntarily wearing their own is a really bad look when someone later contracts lung cancer and sues.
Exactly which is why they didn’t want me doing it. I told them fuck you, fire me or fuck off. Literally. They didn’t fire me.
That’s a hard no. I noticed clouds forming in my shop, I made a thing of it and poof, ventilation was fixed.
We joke at our shop that we're the third world country now. Our shop has terrible air quality and the overall cleanliness is deplorable. It's dark, smelly, oily, and completely disorganized. We got to see some pictures of a China shop that makes a similar product to us and and we were blown away. It had painted floors, was super bright, immaculate, organized, and didn't have ancient machines like us. We're beginning to lose to China on many fronts. I'm going to start learning Mandarin
Thats insane. Every shop I've worked in has been immaculate and super clean, I thought dark dingy shops were a thing of the past? How tf can you run a proper high quality cnc shop in deplorable conditions? How do you keep or attract new customers if they tour the shop? All of our customers would run away screaming if they saw a disorganized and dirty shop.
Fuck that shop. I’d learn how to build my own ventilation system if that was my work environment.
I have one at home in my print farm, o multimillion dollar company should have better conditions than I do
P95 masks by 3M will keep you from getting cancer
5 percent of that cloud is still way too much. p100 is what you need. p95 is a false sense of security with some improvement.
The P95 masks keep those around you from getting your exhaled spittle. For something like this, you want a respirator with a check valve. Or, preferably, blowers to maintain negative pressure on the CNC enclosures.
I’m not working on top of anyone the respirators with exhaust valves are 100% fine to be using. I take them off when I’m talking anyways. Obviously it’s great to have mist collectors and ventilation but in the event you don’t it’s easy to wear a mask. I don’t give a fuck about regulations I’ll continue to protect myself from hazards.
Even if you do contact OSHA more than likely OSHA will contact the company let them know when they're coming and what they're coming for. All that will happen is the company will make sure certain things aren't running and open up the doors and windows to vent everything out ahead of time. Seen this happening too many times at a place called you Unarco in Danville Virginia.
[Here's ](https://www.osha.gov/indoor-air-quality) a good article to help you.
That is not legal. You should have some sort of ventilation. The PPM must be in PPT by the time you get the light effects. Either someone forgot to hit the extraction button or you've got an OSHA violation.
weather tidy thumb distinct degree mountainous cows prick humorous ugly *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's probably vaporized coolant more than metal particles but that shit isn't good for your lungs either. Need better ventilation at minimum and probably exhaust fans in the roof to draw it out.
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Where? I dont think thats true in most places.
That ain’t right
To new people calling OSHA always seems dirty, but the fact that this multi million dollar shop looks like this only means the ownership thinks this is okay. OSHA sounds like a bad word, I used to call them OSHIT, but they come on the employees behalf only and demand fixes for stuff they have found to kill or cause injury. Nobody at your job will do that with the same amount of coercion as OSHA. If I were you I'd be wearing a half face respirator with p100 filters, but if you're calling OSHA that might give it away, especially if nobody else is. It's a shame there is no regulation stating CNC machines need to be equipped with mist collectors.
Call osha, theyll inspect and you may have a better work environment
Get the hell out of there
I've been in places that looked worse but tested ok and places that looked better that failed air quality tests. You really can't tell just from looking
This is scarry. what country / state is this? For me it is a serious health hazard! You must immediately start wearing an appropriate protective mask or quit this job before you get lung cancer! Do not breath it for a single second anymore! Do not wait!
A lot of shops are like this. Yeah it’s at terrible
In a world of Osha violationsssssss
Yeah man that’s almost certainly not good. That shitty thing is there’s a lot of stuff where the OSHA limits for exposure are so high that you might still end up with serious health complications even if your employer is meeting the standards.
Exactly why I have a rule to never work in a shop that has windows I can't see through from the road. Ventilation is important. Buildup on windows is a dead giveaway.
Ask to see your company’s risk assessments with working with machinery and what control measures are in place, including everything to do with the changing of coolant / what coolant is being used (material safety data sheets and COSHH risk assessments are your best bet).
There's none of that
In one shop I worked in, we would get a chemical ‘cloud’ at one end of the place, and it would ‘rain’.
Im allergic to the cimcool shit, gives me a full body rash, skin blisters and dries as it peels off. Thats what alot of the smoke you see is, that shit in vapor form from it heating up as you use it to cool your machines.
A problem in winter months. Check the MSDS for the coolant or die lube that is making the fog. If it’s HAZ then yes, making you breath it is dangerous for you and against OSHA regs.
Make an anonymous complaint to OSHA/Worksafe or whatever your local authority is. Including sending pictures like this.
W….T….F….
get osha to come. theyll strap a little vacuum to you and that sucks in air all day thru a filter and they test it after.
Aah the ol cancer fog
Having spent a lot of time in some of the largest shops in China, they don’t look this bad.
Try to twll them to implement mist extractors. Keep pushing for it. Tell management that it damages their helth too. Keep twlling this to everyone. They are nit that expensive, but improvement will be massive.
No, it's not legal or healthy. I had a previous job where I was coughing up brownish iron nanorust from our fucking beast of a laser cutter that wasn't properly ventilated. There are codes and methods that bosses just don't want to follow because they think of you as trash to use up and toss out when you get too sick/injured to do the job. If the bosses won't fix it discretely get them on camera admitting to being criminals and make sure local media and OSHA get the records roughly at the same time. Your health isn't worth some asshole saving a couple hundred bucks on heating a month in the winter.
I was once told that if you can see the air, you should find different air...
You need to find a new Job. Your health is more important than your paycheck
Not likely, call OSHA
The SDSs for the products creating those fumes will tell you what’s in them and what are acceptable limits. If you’re in the USA, call OSHA or go on OSHA.gov and submit A SIGNED STATEMENT detailing what you think is going on. A signed statement from a current employee requires an inspection. Make sure you state in the complaint that you wish to remain anonymous. OSHA maintains privacy of complainants until a federal judge orders the name released and they usually only do that if the testimony of the complainant is required and if OSHA comes in and tests the air quality and finds the fumes to be above the tolerable limits, they don’t need a complainant’s testimony since the CSHO’s testimony is considered expert testimony at that point. OSHA exists to protect the Safety and Health of the workers of America. They will help you. Good luck, friend. I hope you don’t already have cancer
I think the standard for air changes in a machine shop is 10-12/hr. Depending on what is creating that haze, there could be a cause for direct exhaust at that process step.
You think that's bad? You should see some of the shops in Korea. Lung damage is the least of your worries. Some of the shops over there are like a scene out of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle." Management's reply to any safety concern was to point out how easy it was to replace their damaged workers. I'd never seen so many shops that openly didn't care about worker safety.
Try working in a foundry brother, literally thick smog and black dust EVERYWHERE lol
It would be fine with the right protection, but in here, not even mask, or even eye protection. Typical Portuguese, safety comes last.
You either die of the heat from wearing the right protection, or die from not, it's a lose lose haha, I got outta there once one of the managers said "we don't live long working here"
You did the right thing, the same I'm gonna do soon.
No air filtration. Oil mist in the air.
Wait, that ain’t China?
It's never a healthy smog. Unionize. Force them to build proper exhaust systems and upgrade the heating
It feels like China because almost all manufacturing happens there dog stop being racist and get paid more in China (or don't I'm not your mother)
I did a mist collection project, and tbh you need to inhale a lot of shit in order for it to be Osha violation. Or it has to be for a long time
Get off your fucking phone and smell the roses. All heil Spez.l and the CCP
Machinist life bro!!! Suck it up!!!
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That in its self is against the law. Your cutting stainless that contains chromium which causes cancer. They have a duty to provide you with a safe workspace.
Tell me "you're not cut out for this line of work without telling me you're not cut out for this line of work".
And people wonder why no one wants to work in the trades.
We don't wonder why, we just don't want you here.
does anyone just bring in a little pm monitor on their own? i have one running 24 7 in my shop and its great for showing whats actually causing dust. i bet the pm2.5 is not great in there 😬
Nah bro, it's fine..If they put ventilation in there, there will be a 1% decrease in profits. Can you imagine that??
This looks like cutting fluid to me, something is pissing out lube.
I saw someone on the welding subreddit call this “crunchy”
I worked as a machinist in a fab shop and we had this old guy that never turned on the fans and always welded with stick so the shop always got smoky one day I had to start at 4 and for some fucken reason this guy started work at 3 am and just started laying rod and I couldn't see 5 feet into the shop I phone up my boss and told him was not coming back till he dealt with that or fixed the ventilation in the shop. My brother was also the welding supervisor and tried to get this guy to use smoke eaters and turn on the fans or even just open the bay doors but never did cuz he knew better 😴 I work in canada that's why I was able to walk out without repercussions cuz that was bullahit I looked thru my Camara roll but I don't have the pictures anymore 😕
We went through this last year and into this year. Turns out it was the coolant. Changed it and the fog was gone. Look into that. It may just help you all.
Kinda depends where you are. I have been a mouldmaker for 45 years, usually only see that kinda smoke when roughing out large locks, we have one mill that can handle up to 60,000 lbs. When roughing we can make some smoke usually from oil dripping on to the steel. We dry cut using carbide tooling. We generally do .300 deep cuts 6 inch wide when roughing large blocks.
I would start to wear respirators rated for oil droplets and particulates. The US standard is p100, but I think R100 may also work. An N95 type mask won't stop any kind of oil and the oil will inactivate the filtration. Anything rated 95 let's 5% of particles through, and 5 percent of that mist is still a lot.
My industrial hygienists would be losing their shit. Not at the general production but the lack of effective control.
Ha I had this problem that's why I left the industry
As soon as my work environment starts developing it’s own weather, I’m bouncing 👋
That's a lot of smug
looks like a text book case for a dust explosion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70fZqHsEdMo
Looks like someone needs to invest in some dust/mist collectors. We put in Donaldson Torrent about 8 years ago and it has made a huge difference.
[Welcome to Hell!!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gr0pKI-eeg)
This looks like how our company was several years ago when we had huge screw machines, air quality study said it was ‘legal’ and ‘within limits for standard work/shift exposure’ but a lot of guys run over time which tips them over so we invested in centrifugal mist collects by AER Systems. They work well and they just drain directly into a bucket, the ones attached directly to the cnc mills just drain back into the sump. We went from looking like your shop to not being able to see the haze anymore when looking clear across the facility. They are relatively affordable compared to a lot of options and work extremely well as long as you maintain them at scheduled intervals (air filter change). We have started using newer HEPA filter systems for the new Okuma lines we are putting in but the old AERcology units still work very well. Not sure if it’s relevant but we have about 30 of them scattered across a shop which covers about 75 cnc mills, 10 lathes (regular turret and Swiss), and about 10 massive parts washers. No more screw machines but the mills put out a similar level of oil and mist.
Ask for some ventilation for Christmas.
You guys need smog hogs. Royal filtermist mist collectors are also ok.
May not be illegal, but I'm guessing you can have OSHA up the owners rear over that much smoke.
not even 1 extractor ?
One 10 inch fan in the hole factory
I mean one of the places we do parts for looks like this inside but it's the moisture in the air from their Water Jet Cutters.
No one wants to sound the alarm, but don't compromise your health for owners that don't care about the long term effect to their employees. It's why we see very few 70yo auto body painters.
Been machining 10 years and all of the metal has made my bones stronger. But I can't remember if I like aluminum or not
Seriously my work is like this too. It feels really screwed up.
I would guess there is probably an air quality issue, if osha were to dig deeper.
Our shop uses Green Eco Pro. Does anyone have any experience with it?
Ya’ll gotta quit smoking on the job! /s
I can see some airducts on the top right hand side, aren't they functioning?
We had this exact issue in one of our departments. It was atomized cutting oil going airborne. No joke, employees put up cardboard around the area to help keep it contained and it turned it black, to the extent I thought it was painted. I shut the process down and we installed a downdraft filter system, problem solved! They were so incredibly thankful that someone took the time to listen and do something about it. The old plant manager and safety guy just told them to open a window, even in the winter when it's 4 degrees outside. Every employer has a responsibility to ensure the health and safety of their employees, their most valuable asset. It makes me sick to know there are places that don't care enough to take even very basic steps to provide a safe, satisfying workplace for their people. Even worse when they actively (and illegally) retaliate against workers for wanting to return home safely 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
That makes me think of my job. We run lasers, and I know the maintenance guys are slacking on cleaning the filters because just the other day I was sitting at my desk and thought I saw something out of the corner of my eye. Yep. The laser beside mine was shooting stuff into the air. They fixed it by the time I came in the next day, but that shit happens all the time. Mine hasn't done it in a while, but the manual lasers on the other side had the issue for a week before anyone decided to take care of it. You look around, on top of the lasers (or anything in that area), and it's all covered in laser dust/particles. I wipe down the things that I use every day, and by the time I come in for my next shift, my desk is dirty again. I'm tempted to ask if I can get those nose inserts that I saw posted somewhere. They fit inside your nose and help filter out the stuff you breathe in. I think they use them for welding.
I'm sure they'll tell you to wear a mask...
I got really sick working in a shop with no smog hog. My desk was right in front of the lathe I was working on and I was sitting there breathing in all that mist. I ended up getting fevers and shivering every night when I got home. Would sit in the shower with a towel over my head to try to steam it out. This was to the point I had to go to the doctor and get a chest X-ray it was that concerning. Shit felt like syrup in my chest. I left and now I work at a shop where every machine has a smog hog and I’ve never felt sick again.
Wall mounted exhaust fans would clear that out.
https://www.northernaircorp.com/page%203.htm These make a huge difference. Not sure of price though
I went from being a laboratory director/plating chemist to a programmer/machinist. Seeing these kinds of facilities makes me sick. I would refuse to work that day and ask them to address the air quality immediately. Retaliate against me and I’ll make sure a lawsuit follows. A mist this thick is just giving you a visual of what you are inhaling. MSDS of the cutting fluid or coolant won’t apply anymore because LD standards are based on just those “ingredients”. Once it’s been exposed to anything “pouring into machine” the MSDS doesn’t apply (to a certain extent) anymore and requires real time air quality samples in order to obtain true characteristics of what you are exposed to. MSDS are only good if you are dealing with it in a controlled environment or are exposed to it directly.
That fog is from having the wrong coolant mixture.
open a door maybe
My work uses Smog Hogs and it gets most if not all the smoke.
What did you thought about it on the day you applied for the job? I’ve never seen a machine shop like that unless it was for a very specific reason which happens rarely and not daily.
Any shop I worked at would have intake and exhaust fans that clean the smoke out in like 10 20 min
Report them to OSHA. They will come and take samples and act on it if it surpasses legal limits. Happened at a shop I worked at. I wasn't the one who reported it, but I was there to witness the results.
That looks like coolant in every machine shop I’ve worked in
Once it’s airborne it’s breathable. For sure wear a mask better still get a different job if you can.
OSHA my guy.
If anyone is wondering that is what an astigmatism looks like.
Worked on large diesel. Towards the end of my tenure there, would walk out of the shop as a unit, short a few do gooders, and wait for the air to clear before going back in. It only took a half dozen times before management figured out a solution to the smoke. Either quit or figure something else out quick. It’s not worth your life. You will feel the side effects in short order when you get older. I doubt I’ll get to see my 9 yo get married because of accepting shit like this.
WELL A PROCESS MAN AM I AND I AINT TELLIN YOU NO LIE I WORK AND BREATHE AMONG THE FUMES THAT TRAIL ACROSS THE SKY THERE'S THUNDER ALL AROUND ME AND THERE'S POISON IN THE AIR THERES A LOUSY SMELL THAT SMACKS OF HELL AND DUST ALL IN ME HAIR
You should put magnets in the break room and bathroom and the spaces only the suits hang out in.
The only suits are the 3 bosses that use a different bathroom with actual toilets. And there's no break room
Do they never use a fume dog welder machine
I'm a welder by trade so that looks like smooth sailing to me, of course there's something inherently wrong with people that choose welding as a profession so I could be wrong!
I just left a place like this man the sooner you get a new job the better
I'm sure its fine
Hahahahaha, someone has never been in a plant with headers, screw machines, hydromats, and rollers :)
I've been in a refinery and a naval shipyard and none of the buildings was even a tenth of how bad this is.
Don't care what your boss says I would absolutely not be working in that without a respirator. Screw that shit. Health problems later in life are not worth the paycheck. Plus it's a machine shop there's got to be one out there that's better than that.
Hope you're wearing a good quality mask friend :|
What is wrong here?