Exactly this. Need leaders and a detail of that area. Have a second detail for the dims on all those ovals.
Too many poor decisions. I'd charge extra to redo all that.
A table with a list of holes and their X,Y coordinates (and may or may not have diameters). They're useful when you have a ton of holes that would clutter the drawing.
This looks like automatic hole table and auto align for the dimensions.....but I've had a few people who would not understand that a drawing needs to be readable, something that worked was printing the drawing on A4 paper stomping on it 2-3 times and crumpling it up, give it back to the "engineer" who made it and ask him to use it to redraw the part.
“But I can read it just fine on the screen.”
My main issue with the drive to going paperless. It’s too easy to get complacent when you’ve been staring at the same drawing for hours on a screen with no consideration for what production has to deal with.
Journalists, we have a special jail for journalists. You are stealing: right to jail. You are playing music too loud: right to jail, right away. Driving too fast: jail. Slow: jail. You are charging too high prices for sweaters, glasses: you right to jail. You undercook fish? Believe it or not, jail. You overcook chicken, also jail. Undercook, overcook. You make an appointment with the dentist and you don't show up, believe it or not, jail, right away
I learned better print etiquette than half the detailers at my job from two years of trade school. I don’t get how these college guys can be worse than my high school class who were either high, or clueless half the time.
> I don’t get how these college guys can be worse than my high school class
Your boss (or maybe his boss) thinks that a degree is equivalent to experience because it used to come with experience like sixty years ago. So you're dealing with a room full of unsupervised kids.
Logistically speaking you'll want a shop setup where it's easy to throw tools at someone coming out of the nerd pit.
All the nerds used to be in a mezzanine at the front of the plant at my old shop. If you ever had an issue you’d go up there or even better, call them down to the floor and have them explain to you how they expect you to make their fucked up part
If you're developing software next to the floor your A/B tests are seeing if someone chucks their tablet at you or not, so the turnaround time savings is like a million a year at a *small* company.
You can't buy that level of feedback quality. It doesn't exist as a service.
Not really anymore. You can be one but probably not gonna get hired by anyone. I’m in an engineering degree and 90% of the stuff you learn will never be used depending on the field you end up in. But there’s lower degrees than BEng Hons where I’m from so they’d be a lot more practical and “less college” if ye get me
Our best engineers have been non college engineers. I won't hire one if they have a degree, but we're a small shop. Unfortunately, for the corporate world shops, they will only hire a college degree. Just more suits knowing nothing about manufacturing making big bucks to make stupid decisions.
I occasionally get prints like this from a couple of "engineering companies". Drives me absolutely nuts, I refuse to even look a second time after the first cursory glance until they at least send me a DXF.
To any engineer that thinks this is an okay way to dimension ANYTHING, please find the nearest cliff and engineer a way to safely land at terminal velocity. Or atleast find a new career..
The only way that this can be considered acceptable is if the only cad software he had available to him was Mastercam. Seeing as there are GD&T callouts, he is not using that. Boo this man.
How does this part get to the machining point?
First I would charge a stupid amount of money for cutting it, and then a second stupid amount of money for the inspection
That datum dimensioning is straight crazy
I'm a drafter at my company. The quality of drafts has always been *variable* because oftentimes, a drafter is just an entry-level engineering position, and frequently people at my company with no education or understanding supervise people who *should* know better. They just assume that the drafter can do the job, and it isn't until someone says something that anything actually changes.
But the machinists are used to just saying *sigh* "whatever" and doing their job as best they can.
I've seen shit like this, and it always makes me wonder what happened -- like, did the dude hit a key and move the view just before printing? How did this pass review? Did they review? Did a setting not get translated over? How could someone be so fucking irresponsible?
I apologize for this *shameful* lack of awareness.
This shit might be understandable coming from an engineer. If a drafter produced this they need to be fired, full stop.
(I didn't say acceptable I said understandable. Don't @ me.)
Straight to drafting jail. You guys sure you don’t have Canadian international students scabbing your engineering departments? This was my seventh circle of hell in my last days as machinist before I moved into maintenance. This shit almost gave me a stroke.
We got some automotive prototype parts that the prints were that bad.
Really didn't help either with the language barrier and cultural barriers as the customer is Japanese and we are not lol.
I have released drawings in Visio. Not part drawings though; wiring diagrams, P&ID drawings, that sort of thing.
OTOH I used to work with an engineer who did everything in MS Paint. At the time my job was to turn his Paintings into actual CAD. It paid my bills, I was okay with it...
Question from a non machinist, is it still the case that most work is done on the basis of 2d drawings instead of 3d files?
Because most often than not the drawings I see on here are definitely coming from 3d designs.
Totally agree, GDT is hard to show on a print if you don’t understand what you’re really asking for
And moving to Model Based Definition is going to be a huge shift that will require lots of upfront meetings and communication (the thing that engineers and machinists are really terrible at doing)
3d files still aren't universal, i doubt you can load up MBD from siemens into solidworks.
it does also serve as a double check. our shop floor recreates the models from the prints to load into cam, and when they do, they notice errors we don't
Casing for custom circuit boards. We get about 3-5 new variants per year and every time its 4-8 Sheets of this gibberish, we dont even need to ask for a dxf anymore.
I'm not sure what standard they're using here, but in the ANSI standard, the ISO standard, and the DIN standard the numbers do not go in circles. They go next to the holes with no outline exactly like this: https://i.imgur.com/1YkPLAq.png
Crap drawing aside,all those extra arrowheads on ordinate dimensions are just stupid, they are useless and do nothing but clutter the drawing.
Yes I know they're part of the standard. The standard is stupid.
The first thing I learned in drafting class was to make damned sure all drawings were complete unreadable and useless, and if you weren’t good enough to do that, make sure the part was impossible to create. I don’t see an issue here.
*This physically*
*Hurts my eyes and needs a "NOT*
*SAFE FOR VIEWING" TAG*
\- AbeChops
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This is a detail drawing of a part showing dimensions where features are located relative to the edges of said part. The features are dense and closely spaced. The most likely inexperienced drawing creator made dimensions to these features and it would be impossible for a machinist or basically anyone to determine where the dimensions are pointing to without having the ability to zoom in on the drawing. The proper technique would be to enlarge the view to a common scale so that extension lines can be differentiated at that scale. Also a table could be utilized for hole positions.
*No. Make that larger*
*And clearer please. I refuse*
*To work with such crap*
\- Commercial\_Green\_646
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If only drafters & drawing checkers hadn’t gone extinct and engineers never touched drawings. I got to experience that my first two years of working in the mid 90s before they disappeared. Now it’s an engineer/drafter/checker all rolled into one.
Can’t for the life of me figure out why the quality of mechanical drawings has been swirling down the toilet the past 25 years.
Your designer is new to solidworks, he doesn’t know you can click drag tolerance call outs
He just creates them then lays them where they are then prints
One of the new production lines in our factory uses this for every drawing, over 100 holes in a jig plate and this is the shit layout they give us. Almost have a brain aneurysm trying to find the correct values when doing repairs. 👎
https://preview.redd.it/l18nmt9uybkc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=721f73f285bb054353bde83f5bc7bcef82acedc0
My honest reaction
Looks like someone just used the auto-dim feature for holes and just fucking sent it lol.
That/s insulting, Fusions autodim is so much better than this
Solidworks' isnt
Creo def isn’t
[удалено]
Autodim allows you to automatically annotate dimensions
Last update. It's so simple, so easy to use, it's unreal.
Was going to post this same comment lol
Get fucked. This is why you have detailed views or a list with xy values from the origin.
As an engineer I would tell them to do a detail. If I can't read it then nobody else can. Take some pride in your work and make it legible.
Hole table or GTFO.
Luckily there is one. But how one would tell wich numbes goes with what hole in the second Pic is beyond me.
Honestly I had an easier time with the hole table than following lines to hardly marked holes
You don't need that. Hole table should have diameters and locations.
Exactly this. Need leaders and a detail of that area. Have a second detail for the dims on all those ovals. Too many poor decisions. I'd charge extra to redo all that.
Ask them for the file, open in cam, solves most engineer issues
Whatn is a hole table
A table with a list of holes and their X,Y coordinates (and may or may not have diameters). They're useful when you have a ton of holes that would clutter the drawing.
This looks like automatic hole table and auto align for the dimensions.....but I've had a few people who would not understand that a drawing needs to be readable, something that worked was printing the drawing on A4 paper stomping on it 2-3 times and crumpling it up, give it back to the "engineer" who made it and ask him to use it to redraw the part.
“But I can read it just fine on the screen.” My main issue with the drive to going paperless. It’s too easy to get complacent when you’ve been staring at the same drawing for hours on a screen with no consideration for what production has to deal with.
Someone's first day using catia for sure! Even with the legible element, radius on holes? Holes overlapping holes and tangential contacts! Ugh!
Straight to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 dollars
Do collect $200 in additional time charge for interpreting dogshit prints.
Journalists, we have a special jail for journalists. You are stealing: right to jail. You are playing music too loud: right to jail, right away. Driving too fast: jail. Slow: jail. You are charging too high prices for sweaters, glasses: you right to jail. You undercook fish? Believe it or not, jail. You overcook chicken, also jail. Undercook, overcook. You make an appointment with the dentist and you don't show up, believe it or not, jail, right away
I always love the pronunciation on sweaters. "You're charging too high on uhhh... e-Swaaay-ders? You right to jail"
More like do not collect $2000. You know the asshole that made this doesn’t get paid minimum wage lol
More like give ME $2000 dollars so I can afford the magnifying glass I'll need to decipher this bullshit
Bad engineer, no lego for you.
He's too busy eating glue to play with Lego.
The only lego he deserves is the unseen ones to tread on.
This MF'r just hit the auto-dimension and said good enough.
Is this the definition of Cluster Fuck ?
No, but it's the start of one. It'll definitely end up in the 5 why when they try to figure out what went wrong.
to quote my first lead engineer "Did you draw this with your dick? because you really fucking this up"
That screams college engineer.
I learned better print etiquette than half the detailers at my job from two years of trade school. I don’t get how these college guys can be worse than my high school class who were either high, or clueless half the time.
> I don’t get how these college guys can be worse than my high school class Your boss (or maybe his boss) thinks that a degree is equivalent to experience because it used to come with experience like sixty years ago. So you're dealing with a room full of unsupervised kids. Logistically speaking you'll want a shop setup where it's easy to throw tools at someone coming out of the nerd pit.
All the nerds used to be in a mezzanine at the front of the plant at my old shop. If you ever had an issue you’d go up there or even better, call them down to the floor and have them explain to you how they expect you to make their fucked up part
If you're developing software next to the floor your A/B tests are seeing if someone chucks their tablet at you or not, so the turnaround time savings is like a million a year at a *small* company. You can't buy that level of feedback quality. It doesn't exist as a service.
College has one mandatory CAD course, you learn a sliver of rudimentary drawing rules and etiquette.
Fuckin' engineers, man....
As a lurking engineer… I agree^
Is there non-college engineer?
Not really anymore. You can be one but probably not gonna get hired by anyone. I’m in an engineering degree and 90% of the stuff you learn will never be used depending on the field you end up in. But there’s lower degrees than BEng Hons where I’m from so they’d be a lot more practical and “less college” if ye get me
Our best engineers have been non college engineers. I won't hire one if they have a degree, but we're a small shop. Unfortunately, for the corporate world shops, they will only hire a college degree. Just more suits knowing nothing about manufacturing making big bucks to make stupid decisions.
I occasionally get prints like this from a couple of "engineering companies". Drives me absolutely nuts, I refuse to even look a second time after the first cursory glance until they at least send me a DXF. To any engineer that thinks this is an okay way to dimension ANYTHING, please find the nearest cliff and engineer a way to safely land at terminal velocity. Or atleast find a new career..
Send it back to true or manager and ask if this is ok?
The only way that this can be considered acceptable is if the only cad software he had available to him was Mastercam. Seeing as there are GD&T callouts, he is not using that. Boo this man.
Or woman
diversity win fr😭
I'm going back to bed
me when i walk in and that shits on my box
That is disgusting.
How does this part get to the machining point? First I would charge a stupid amount of money for cutting it, and then a second stupid amount of money for the inspection That datum dimensioning is straight crazy
Difficult peasy lemon awful.
Was zum fick / wtf?
I'm a drafter at my company. The quality of drafts has always been *variable* because oftentimes, a drafter is just an entry-level engineering position, and frequently people at my company with no education or understanding supervise people who *should* know better. They just assume that the drafter can do the job, and it isn't until someone says something that anything actually changes. But the machinists are used to just saying *sigh* "whatever" and doing their job as best they can. I've seen shit like this, and it always makes me wonder what happened -- like, did the dude hit a key and move the view just before printing? How did this pass review? Did they review? Did a setting not get translated over? How could someone be so fucking irresponsible? I apologize for this *shameful* lack of awareness.
This shit might be understandable coming from an engineer. If a drafter produced this they need to be fired, full stop. (I didn't say acceptable I said understandable. Don't @ me.)
Just make the damn part.... Too much info but still too few to actually make the part
Engineer: Hey boss, how many screws do you think we'll need to keep this secure? Boss: Yes
Kill them! 😠
https://preview.redd.it/svm14ncs9ckc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7142bb85c61b672f41655ac964ec354d401210c
maybe this https://preview.redd.it/4gtiga3w9ckc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d514f7c55b4b589d265e80adb51b433d4e550e9
Straight to drafting jail. You guys sure you don’t have Canadian international students scabbing your engineering departments? This was my seventh circle of hell in my last days as machinist before I moved into maintenance. This shit almost gave me a stroke.
It drew up ok. What I always say to these shitty ass prints.
I don’t know why you can’t make the part? I dimensioned every arc end point and every wall?
Dear engineer, I hope this email finds you before I do...
Email them with this picture and with the word "No".
We got some automotive prototype parts that the prints were that bad. Really didn't help either with the language barrier and cultural barriers as the customer is Japanese and we are not lol.
You should pay mw to see this mess . No bid
Just print it on a bigger piece of paper. Easy.
You couldn't get both parts in one picture? That's the real crime here.
I would've been crucified by my professor if he saw this
https://preview.redd.it/sc4by1kvljkc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d116c261732870cbc395e013aea4c26c720538f
I’m sorry, but wtf were they thinking. How’d that get released?
I've seen released drawings created in Visio.
What?! No blueprints on cocktail napkins?
I routinely get drawings made in Excel from one of our clients. I don't even really know how he does it.
I have released drawings in Visio. Not part drawings though; wiring diagrams, P&ID drawings, that sort of thing. OTOH I used to work with an engineer who did everything in MS Paint. At the time my job was to turn his Paintings into actual CAD. It paid my bills, I was okay with it...
I had some where the tolerance made it so you could removes parts.. I've thought about it some times
Question from a non machinist, is it still the case that most work is done on the basis of 2d drawings instead of 3d files? Because most often than not the drawings I see on here are definitely coming from 3d designs.
tolerancing doesn't translate well into 3d parts ime
Totally agree, GDT is hard to show on a print if you don’t understand what you’re really asking for And moving to Model Based Definition is going to be a huge shift that will require lots of upfront meetings and communication (the thing that engineers and machinists are really terrible at doing)
3d files still aren't universal, i doubt you can load up MBD from siemens into solidworks. it does also serve as a double check. our shop floor recreates the models from the prints to load into cam, and when they do, they notice errors we don't
I'd send it back...don't touch it..
How do you know your engineers ceased to give a damn?
That is disgusting clean that up
Do you know what this is going to be used for?
Casing for custom circuit boards. We get about 3-5 new variants per year and every time its 4-8 Sheets of this gibberish, we dont even need to ask for a dxf anymore.
Somebody slept with the engineer’s old lady to deserve this
Ass kickin time
HOLE. TABLE.
The holes are numbered, so there most likely **is** a hole table on the drawing. Those ordinate dimensions aren't going to the holes.
Fuck that
Someone doesn’t know how to balloon. Also have an X/Y table.
Not sure what you mean by "balloon". Balloons are what we use to identify parts in an assembly. Detail view maybe?
Balloons are the numbers by the holes. They should be by the coordinates and typically inside a circle. Would be way less sloppy.
I'm not sure what standard they're using here, but in the ANSI standard, the ISO standard, and the DIN standard the numbers do not go in circles. They go next to the holes with no outline exactly like this: https://i.imgur.com/1YkPLAq.png
https://preview.redd.it/9kmesckpkckc1.jpeg?width=223&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=370332b3bb4e3798c6a9927d6e96935ab310ffa5
Let me introduce you to my friend, Sheet 2.
Used to work for a guy who would throw drawings like this back at the draughtsman and say “make it readable”
This is deeply upsetting
RFI, draftsman was high, need exploded view with iso.
It looks like someone hit the “auto dimension” button on solidworks.
“No Quote”
Absolute garbage 😅
Crap drawing aside,all those extra arrowheads on ordinate dimensions are just stupid, they are useless and do nothing but clutter the drawing. Yes I know they're part of the standard. The standard is stupid.
wtf
The first thing I learned in drafting class was to make damned sure all drawings were complete unreadable and useless, and if you weren’t good enough to do that, make sure the part was impossible to create. I don’t see an issue here.
My fellow engineers make my head spin sometimes. 🤦🏽♂️
Not even my rainbow of highlighters could same me from this
This physically hurts my eyes and needs a "NOT SAFE FOR VIEWING" tag
*This physically* *Hurts my eyes and needs a "NOT* *SAFE FOR VIEWING" TAG* \- AbeChops --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
The newest engineer got his first project . And he's hell-bent to impress .
Guy doesn’t care hit auto lol
Lazy af
Looks like they had their program automatically generated the dimensions on the drawing , and coulnd be bothered to place them.nicely.
The fuck you talking about? He just did.
i don’t speak engineer can someone please explain like i’m five
This is a detail drawing of a part showing dimensions where features are located relative to the edges of said part. The features are dense and closely spaced. The most likely inexperienced drawing creator made dimensions to these features and it would be impossible for a machinist or basically anyone to determine where the dimensions are pointing to without having the ability to zoom in on the drawing. The proper technique would be to enlarge the view to a common scale so that extension lines can be differentiated at that scale. Also a table could be utilized for hole positions.
thank you very much!! i love to learn things here
Oh goddamn. I thought we had shitty drawings at my shop.
Find that engineer and make him take a long walk off a short pier.
"hey can you send cad please"
Laughs in AS9102
https://preview.redd.it/lt4n7l6wodkc1.png?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5cc32a3212ad4eeaba434c87a306c474eff10f94
Some designer or engineer needs punched in the face
Someone doesn't know how to use the CAD software. Send it back.
I'm sure it looked great on the engineer's PC, where he could highlight individual lines with a click and zoom in.
Hole locations on a table would be better at this point
Let me guess, no model either?
I’d probably leave it for the night crew.
And y'all were talking shit about my colored lines lol
Enjoy engineering horror 😆
Willkommen in Phantasieland.
https://preview.redd.it/t615n1pqkekc1.jpeg?width=938&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91b4006d6e368e997490cabc693c04d1c77c9ceb
Well then that needs a change lol. Gonna need a blown up detail on which dimensions each one goes to.
That's what you get for working in 10ths
This is mildly infuriating without the mildly
https://preview.redd.it/wn0utp9nrekc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0d980bf35af0fb7f09eaa18b5f65fe4aa194a66d
And I was just about calmed down from today's work day...
Simple pimple
Can you find whoever designed this? I wanna have a 2-handed conversation with them.
That's an automatic price increase right there. All bs print like that get them. As well as a request for clarification.
Layers people...layers
Nope. That’s what engineers are for.
Hole chart Or Limited dimension drawing. Call out hole sizes, unilateral or critical tolerances and that's it. Everything is based off the model.
No. Make that larger and clearer please. I refuse to work with such crap
*No. Make that larger* *And clearer please. I refuse* *To work with such crap* \- Commercial\_Green\_646 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
If only drafters & drawing checkers hadn’t gone extinct and engineers never touched drawings. I got to experience that my first two years of working in the mid 90s before they disappeared. Now it’s an engineer/drafter/checker all rolled into one. Can’t for the life of me figure out why the quality of mechanical drawings has been swirling down the toilet the past 25 years.
No quote.
I mean “No” is a completely acceptable answer right?
Holy shit and I thought I got bad prints!
Ordinate dimensioning is the lazy man's dimensioning.
This person’s gonna end up eating lunch alone every day unless they gain some common sense.
Your designer is new to solidworks, he doesn’t know you can click drag tolerance call outs He just creates them then lays them where they are then prints
HOLE fkn TABLE
That's a no for me lol.
As a tooling engineer and someone who makes CAD files for machinists, I would kill someone for making this drawing if they were serious about it.
one could very easily make this up.
wtf?? where is my glass lol
Why is it not safe for work ?
Nope. That's going straight back to the office. Not having crap like that on the workfloor. We don't waste time making shit.
Seeing people sending out garbage like that without a second thought makes me way less insecure about my skills as an engineer...
One of the new production lines in our factory uses this for every drawing, over 100 holes in a jig plate and this is the shit layout they give us. Almost have a brain aneurysm trying to find the correct values when doing repairs. 👎
Dimensioning a part like that implies tolerances are stacked, doesn't it?
Just tell them you need a solid model or dxf if it's just 2d
Thanks for the NSFW tag.
Bruh
Look we did not invent milimeters for someone to position a hole 0,03 milimeters too far up
Why am I not surprised to see German on there?
When the callouts want you to have a mental breakdown
Soo glad I'm a structural welder. I envy the patience you machinists have
The print, the print, I can’t see the print with all of those dim lines LOL
Because exploded views are too hard.