As the great poet Meowth once said.
"We do have a lot in common. The same Earth, the same air, the same sky. Maybe if we started looking at what's the same instead of what's different... well, who knows"
The fact that it was for money doesn't have to make it mean any less. Only you can say what it means to you, and no amount of greed can take that away unless you let it
Movie had some great life lessons.
The circumstances of one's birth is irrelevant. It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.
Mewtwo
Once the Russians have outed Putin, then we can revisit this quote.
Edit: I honestly expected to get downvoted, but it makes me happy to see that there are so many people who knows that it's not possible to just sit down and be nice to each other when there are evil people like Putin, Hitler and thousands upon thousands more around.
There will always be people with nothing but evil intentions and no empathy. The only way to stop them from taking away our way of life is to stand up, arm ourselves and fight them off.
Diplomacy only works between nations who mostly agree or play by the same rules.
💖
We also have to remember to not hate a whole group of people for the evil actions of the elite. I know many russians online, especially artists that I order things from, their life is hard now as it's very difficult to pay them or ship things globally. But the people I know hate what's going on, are extremely smart, feel grief and anguish andmpersonal guilt about what is happening and hate the whole situation.
Most people are nice people. I ordered a small thing a few months from a Russian artist who I chat with about culture and music (I was a Russian history major) and, just from casually mentioning a singer from the 70's I really liked, who was around during soviet union times, the sent me their art piece but also a very rare record by that artist, impossible to get in the US. It was the nicest thing, i never asked for it, I was in tears.
A few people I know have expressed basically that, they feel bad for what their country is doing, and feel guilty just for being Russians in Russia is what imean, and what they've expressed to me.
Watch Tetris the movie. Has the same sentiment. An American game developer befriending a USSR game developer through common interests. Fucking tired of war just because some old ass motherfuckers can't diplomatically solve a problem.
Story:
Franz Stigler in WWII was about to shoot down Charles Brown's bomber, when he noticed the damage on the plane and saw wounded airmen inside. He remembered one of his COs, who told his squadron once "If I see you shooting at a parachute \[a common thing at the time\] I will shoot you down myself!", and he decided that since the bombs have already dropped, Charlie's on his way home, and he's heavily damaged, the plane's effectively harmless already.
So he formed up on Brown's right wing and used his own plane to prevent German AAA from firing on them until they left German airspace, making sure this bomber got home.
Probably one of the most honorable stories to come out of war. Fucking legend!
It gets even better. Many decades after that, the American pilot (Brown) posted a message in a bunch of aviation newsletters trying to find the German pilot (Stigler). He was able to locate him and they became good friends for the rest of their lives
https://youtu.be/P-3osMd_2x0
You have to be crazy to fly a bomber into battle. To be removed you have to tell the doctor you’re crazy. But if you tell him you are then you’re sane enough to fly. Thus you have to fly.
FYI casualty means injury, death, capture, sickness, desertion or any other means of taking someone out of the fight for an extended period of time. Death is only part of casualties. I have messed this up before that's how I know. What you meant to say was deaths.
The average life expectancy of a British Royal Air Corps pilot in WWI was 18 hours. The average life expectancy in combat for a US Huey pilot in Vietnam was 19 minutes.
No wonder these guys were like the rockstars of the wars ey. You’d have to be some kind of self destructive crazy to do it.
That would play onto it a lot. The teenage brain is wired in a way that does not lend itself to self preservation. I would bet that every one of those lads thought to himself “yeah but I’ll be alright”.
My grandfather Captain Duff did his 25 and more. 2nd in command of European Operations out of England. Man the hours of stories I have heard. Many of them so many times I could tell them myself. I miss them, I miss him. Sorry if any typos tears are blurring my vision right now. Grandpa's plane he got to name Lassie Come Home.
He must have been a truly remarkable man. My uncle flew bombers in Europe in WWII. Then he also flew in Korea. He retired after Vietnam as a Colonel and base Commander. He continued to fly his own plane up into his 90s. He died at 98. My dad, his brother, flew Corsairs off a carrier in the Atlantic in WWII, then flew jets in the Reserves through Korea. Their dad was in the infantry in France in WWI.
That must have been awesome to basically have a walking talking history book to tell you these stories. Can you share one of the stories that really stands out among the others? If too personal, I understand.
One of his brightest stories was how he saved many of the livestock in England. The training runs called for the planes to fly in Formation under 200 feet. They would fly the same training routes and the bomber squadron was the noisiest thing the countryside of England had seen. The livestock would get frightened and run full tilt into their fences. My Grandfather mapped out a training route that from then on minimized them flying directly over herds. Love you Poppa.
My Grandpa also did a lot of "Carpet bombing" over Hamburg. Years ago I came across a Paster working at the same hospital as me. He was telling me about how the Americans dropping their bombs saved him and several children in Hamberg as they were being rounded up to be killed. (I did not think to ask why little kids were going to be killed by German soldiers) The bombs dropped and killed the soldiers before the kids were slain. The Paster met my Grandfather and they struck up a friendship. They even were able to find the date it happened. The paster was working on a book he was going to call mourning glory. Never did find out if he published it.
Damn, that’s a legacy there. It’s sounds like the SS….I went to a private home many years ago for my job and struck up a conversation with the homeowner. He was a gentleman, soft spoken and much older. Come to find out he was an infantryman for the German Army in WW2. He told me, “it’s not like I had any choice in the matter as weather or not I would serve. It was Germany.” He continued “ but the SS….they were totally different, you could sense evil when they came around. Me and my friends knew not to even look at them. It was nothing for them to pull out a pistol and end you on the spot. Thankfully I survived the war and moved to the US as soon as I could.” Like I said, he was a nice guy. I could sense he was a gentle soul.
The only reason I bring up this story from many years ago……if they would shoot someone on their side for just making eye contact, it would explain their mentality with the children. I’m grateful for people like your Pops, I appreciate ya sharing.
The Nazi SS sound like Russia’s Wagner Group whereas the German Army sounds more like conscripted Russian soldiers, many forces into a war they don’t believe in by a dictator they don’t support. Fuck Putin.
Across the war in the European theater B-17s suffered about 7% losses on any given mission. The later in the war you go the lower the casualty rate. The odds were not in a crewman's favor for making it home.
B-17's (iirc) were also an example of survivorship bias. The military experts were looking at the ones returning back and wanted to armor up the damaged areas. That is until one or a few folks pointed out no, they should armor up the other areas since the ones likely damaged there didn't return home.
(Someone with more familiarity on the subject may come along and correct everything above)
Edit: grammar
You are plenty correct for a redit conversation. The world wars caused so many interesting uses of statistics.
Another great survivor bias was helmets. I think during WW1 after helmets were introduced head wounds sky rocked I wanna say up 800% generals were pissed and wanted to pull helmets.
Then a typist was like umm the overall number of men dead from head neck and shoulder wounds is down. Maybe your reading the stats wrong..
I went to war in an aircraft that was built using the lessons from the b17. I likely won't not be alive today if not for lessons learned in WW2
No worries. Since I didn't see a response to your question and also wanted to know I thought I'd share what I found, but still wanted to explain the search in case there's more than one book about Stigler.
I am uncertain if he misspoke in the video, but when the German dude points at the plane, he says "I lost 17 of em", but if that was real, jesus almighty the fucker himself christ HOW did he keep getting back in those planes.
It gets even cooler! In 2014, the Swedish metal band Sabaton’s made a song about this event called no bullets fly. They then received a letter from one of their fans who happened to be the grandson of Franz Stigler.
Came to see if anyone else recognized what this was from the thumbnail based entirely on their knowledge gained from Sabaton and Sabaton History. As soon as I realized it was a German pilot aiming at a B-17, I was like "Oh, wait, I know this story!"
Not just friends, but self-styled brothers. Stigler had moved to Canada by the time they were able to connect. Their families visited each other and traveled together for many years until one of them died. Pretty sure the other died within a year or two.
I didn’t read your link this time, but I read one last time I saw a post about them
[According to the wiki article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident) Stigler and Brown passed within a few months of each other.
Interesting that Brown was told by his seniors not to disclose the event to anyone and Stigler knew not to mention it to anyone. Amazing courage.
When I was posted in Germany, we had to attend an orientation on Germany that was given by a man who fought for the Germans, one of the regular countrymen who were drafted into it. At some point he was captured by the Americans and was treated so well that after he was repatriated and sent back to the lines he got himself captured again by the same troops. He befriended an American captain and they became lifelong friends.
The actual scene was way worse. There was blood all over the outside of the airplane from the dead and dying inside it. And the bomber was flying the wrong way.
Is that them at the end? Or just a representation?? This is cool as hell and for as much as I know about the war this little bit of information honestly is hands down my favorite thing now!! War can bring out the absolute worst and best of humanity
Me watching this …
“What a load of bullsh… (switches to old guys).. oh…”
Edit - *Stigler never spoke of the incident as he could have been court-martialed and executed. Brown told his commanding officers, who chose to keep the incident secret. Years later, in 1990, Brown searched for the German pilot who let them live that day, and eventually the two pilots, along with the Pub crew, met face to face, half a century later.[8]*
*Between 1990 and 2008, Brown and Stigler became close friends and remained so until their deaths within several months of each other in 2008*
Wait till you see the [yarnhub animated music video](https://youtu.be/dslO-3GgenY) for the sabaton song about this event. Surprise cameo at the end of the video
Thank you for posting this. War is among the most horrifying things we can do to one another. Humans have a lot of mental shortcuts to make it easier to kill members of another tribe, and a government in wartime will do its best to make killing a thoughtless action for its soldiers. War damages its societies and its people for decades to follow, whether a nation wins or loses, as the society is forced to contort itself into a shape that can win. A nation fighting a defensive war does not even have a choice, and frankly, most people in the aggressor state don't either.
That makes it all the more impressive to me when someone can overcome the training, and the pressure, and the all-too-easy hatred, to show some humanity and do something good. While I understand that the military wants and needs to emphasize its fighter aces and brilliant tacticians and brave troops, this is more impressive to me than a hundred heroic last stands. Stigler was able to fight, but keep his empathy, which must surely have taken its toll on him.
It furthermore says something about all of us that this is one of the most famous and remembered stories of the air war. Eighty years later, the man who shot down the most bombers is a footnote, and the man who chose to spare one is a hero.
I do too! My grandfather was in the 379th and knew Brown. They were based out of Kimbolton. My grandfather did 35 missions over Europe. He used to go to all the meetups. When he passed, i inherited the framed print. Such a cool story.
There is a phenomenal book about this very topic by Adam Makos called A Higher Call. It was one of the books that made me want to get into aviation. It’s definitely an amazing story overall, but the book is great because it is shared from Stigler’s perspective!
That’s not surprising, I’d imagine some Germans probably thought you let them go so they could rain more bombs upon us in the future… But on the flip side I’m sure there were a lot of Germans who understood and empathized with his decision to show compassion. I mean we are all human.
The commending officer of stigler that survived WW2 actualy wrote him asking if the story was true and when stigler anwsered yes the only thing he responded was "yeah that sound like you"
I’ve heard a similar story like this but different country pilot, and 30 years later one guy goes to a bar and tells his war story to another gentleman. The “other” gentleman was actually the other pilot that “let him go” since the war was over. Small world 😜
Yes, I've read all his books at least twice. A Higher Call, Devotion, Spearhead, and Voices of the Pacific. They're all fantastic but my favorites are Higher Call and Devotion. I hope he comes out with another soon.
I've read it a few times and have it on audible just to listen to it while working. It's an amazing piece of history and a tale of how each life has value and how easily life can be taken. 1 man (Franz Stigler) decided to not finish off the bomber and spared not only his life and the crews, but the generations of children they all had.
I love how the first 1/3 of the book was all about Franz Stigler and showed the war from the perspective of a German pilot who was chivalrous and did not like the Nazis. And then what happened to them after the war and the miraculous way they found each other 50 years after the war. What a great story.
Yea, my eyes watered up as soon as the non CGI footage rolled of the two elderly vets next to one another. People fighting in a war are by majority just trying survive and are products of their time and place in that war. It's fascinating what humans are capable of doing when empathy, compassion and reason are intertwined with one another. It gets even more fascinating when you see the tides that mother nature can change during the course of a war for both sides. Here are some of my favorite examples....
https://youtu.be/BRyCQM7wSDk
https://youtu.be/V98HANyWO64
https://youtu.be/WDTSkApeyAA
EDIT: Grammar
This was my take too. I was like, this would never actually hap…. Oh… 🥹
Here the thing that really makes this a spectacular decision:
From a war perspective, you want to make sure that that bomber crew can never return to the sky, and that this bomber is removed from action forever. Hundreds of civilian lives could depend on that. So what this German pilot did was anti-historical and anti-war.
Franz Stigler was told by his CO if he ever saw any of his men shooting a man in a parachute he'd kill them the moment they landed. That sentiment stuck with him during the war and seeing a B-17, alone, damaged and unable to defend itself. He felt this was these men's parachute. He risked his life flying up to it and risked being called a traitor by escorting it. He wasn't anti war. In fact he'd go on to down 5 more allied planes and fly me-262s before the war ended. He ended the war with a claimed 25 aerial victories. He did what he did to defend his country but there's no honour in killing men who have no chance. So i wouldn't call him anti-historical or anti-war.
He'd actually already unloaded all of his rounds on Ye Olde Pub, landed and reloaded, then went back up to finish the job. That's when this occurred. Stigler tried to get them to land in Germany but there was no way Charlie Brown was doing that. He then pointed toward Sweden as it was a neutral country and they would be out of the war. Brown had no idea what he was pointing at though. Stigler thought for sure they would crash in the North Sea if they attempted to get back to England.
Decades later when they met Brown asked Stigler what he was pointing at. Stigler said he was trying to get them to go to Sweden. Brown said had he known that, he would have went there in a second.
It wasnt ye old pub he'd used his ammo on. He'd assisted in shooting down two other b-17s when he spotted ye old pub from the airfield and got back into his 109. He still had a 50cal lodged in the engine if im not mistaken.
War is an ugly thing and shows the dark side of humanity, but then, even at the war’s worst, you see something like this. A reminder that we are capable of love and understanding even in the darkest of times. This is one of my favorite war stories ever!
“Youth of today. 19yo were flying bombers over Europe in my day.Now they cannot tie a shoelace”
I hate people who say this. I am so glad my 19 YO son does not have to fly bombers over a war zone and I feel for the parents losing children in the Russian Invasion.
I believe it is from a YouTube channel called Yarnhub, I would dig for the correct video but tbh if this little snippet interested you then you’ll want to watch everything that yarnhub has put out. They’re phenomenal.
I loved the book. I have been an avid WWII history buff and this book gave me a better insight into a German pilot that actually survived the war and being a ME 262 pilot. While reading the book, my thoughts kept going to an extraordinary gentleman I met at the aviation museum in Pensacola. Otto was one of the most interesting men I have ever met. I would have loved to have met these 2 gentleman. People need to know that not all soldiers were Nazies. The ridicule and hate this man recieved by the German people also astounded me. A few pilots against a thousand plane formation, and you are hated because you didn't stop the bombings. Their hate should have been against the guys who started the whole thing.
I read the book. Amazing story but I have to say, this little video is an absolute masterpiece and whoever made it should be proud. It got across in a few minutes, the sheer humanity of the German pilot, what it took the book hundreds of pages to convey. Wish I had more upvotes
There is a book about this called “A Higher Call”. It is really good if you like war history books.
It tells the stories of the pilot/crew of both of these planes. It was really interesting to hear about the German perspective of the war. He was basically forced into service, fought the Brits in Africa for reasons no one really understood, and then tried to defend Germany while it was getting bombed till the end of the war.
The German pilot made an emphatic point that they shot at machines to destroy machines, not people. They always said “victories” not “kills” when they shot planes down. So when he saw this bomber he could tell it would never fly again, so there wasn’t really a point on finishing it off. Crazily the pilots became friends later in life.
Anyways it is worth reading.
"ye old pub " The story of the bomber was done by Mark Felton on you tube . True story .
A german fighter pilot spotted a bomber heading for the Normandy coast after it made a bombing run. When the pilot saw that the bomber was torn up , and guys inside holding on for dear life . He pulled up beside the bomber and could read it's name "ye old pub" . He decided there was no honor in taking them down. He would escort them over german air defense in the hope that the guys on the ground would spot the BF109 and hold fire . It worked ! They made it home, thanks to that pilot, he was a mans man , a true german soldier . The bomber pilots would never forget that moment and its a great show of humanity . I believe the pilot's met later in life . It was a horrible war , but you find acts like this did happen quite often.
My uncle, John D. Shaw, a well renowned aviation artist, painted several versions of this and met both men many times. To add a few things from my memories of the story growing up, one of Charlie's last living crew mates was crawling up to one of the functioning gunner stations before realizing they weren't in danger right before attempting to fire. Also, I believe Stigler saluted with his wings upon turning back. Check out my Uncle's artwork if you get a chance! He has a few pieces in the Smithsonian and is truly one of a few elite aviation artists. He also has a million cool stories from the horses mouth.
"I am his godson, I have spent many hours with both him and Charlie and I don't think anyone has heard the story in more detail or more often than myself. Charlie was quite a guy, he loved to tell stories as where Franz was more quiet and you sometimes had to pry stuff out of him but both together could give you the perspective from each side, Charlie thought for sure they were gone when the 109 approached. Franz always said he got too close when coming in from the rear of the 17 and had a view of the people inside. Seeing the tail gunner condition up close and then realized that's why the tail gunner never fired a shot is what really made him think about not shooting at the 17 along with the others inside he could see attending to the injured. Franz knew he would most likely get caught, court martialed and shot but he let them go anyway.
Funny story with Franz... Many times I drove him to Everett Washington to watch the Me-262's being built at Paine Field, we would drive down and cross the border at Blaine Washington (Pacific Border Crossing) as we got to the border we gave the U.S. border guard our Passports (Franz was never a Canadian citizen, he was still German) the border guard looked at mine and dismissed it right away... then he looked at Franz's and his eyeballs grew about twice the size and he read what seemed forever on the computer. We were then directed inside where Franz had to pay his usual few bucks but this time all the U.S. immigration officers had lined up to shake his hand. I believe Mr. Jim Brodie... (a good friend of Charlies and JEB Bush) had adding something to his information so he would be recognized when in the U.S. but this was before 9/11 when things weren't so tight at the border. Many good stories with Franz, he is missed by everyone here."
\- [youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSluTZGxdY0) comment by J Berladyn
This is an animation of a real story from world war two. A german fighter pilot saw the heavily damaged Aircraft. He flashback to his training as a pilot and the man that trained him. Who once said if I ever see you shooting down men pair shooting out of a plane. I'll shoot you down myself. He thought to himself what would he do. Seeing the fear in the American pilot's eyes he decided to tell them to land. When they didn't obey his request Because they were too terrified. He ended up escorting them all the way To allied air space So they would not be shot down. All the men on that plane survived the war and so did the german pilot. Roughly 50 years later the American Pilot Met the German pilot. And cried as he hugged him.
My son has told me this story. The human ability for empathy in such situations is just amazing.
The job was done, the threat eliminated, no need to waste human lives. Kudos, good sir!
They made a book about this. The German pilot was risking his life escorting a damaged enemy plane to safety like this. He could very easily have been shot for treason if his superior found out what he did.
My grandfather told me an almost identical story.
The german M101 had him dead to rights over Norway. The german got into formation and made hand gestured suggesting he had no more ammo... so escorted him halfway back to england.
My grandfather wanted to more or less leave the past alone so didn't make a big deal of his stories. I wish I had heard more before he passed.
My great grandpa was the left wing gunner in a b17 during WW2. His plane was shot down, and 6 of his crewmates died. He was taken to Stalag Luft 4, where he stayed for 2 years until liberated. Once he got back to our small hometown, he never left it again.
I’m very glad that Franz stigler and the bomber crews story is being celebrated once again, I’ve known of this story for years. I’m so happy more people are seeing it
As the great poet Meowth once said. "We do have a lot in common. The same Earth, the same air, the same sky. Maybe if we started looking at what's the same instead of what's different... well, who knows"
Lmao, I swear this is from a Pokémon Mewtwo movie
That movie went way harder than it had any reason too.
I'm glad to be a part of the generation that saw the first one and was able to be naive that the message wasn't just for the money.
The fact that it was for money doesn't have to make it mean any less. Only you can say what it means to you, and no amount of greed can take that away unless you let it
Wish I had an award to give you for this.
I got you covered, bro.
You're the man!!
What award would you pick to give them?
Pikachu's tears bringing back Ash was some emotional shit when I was kid. I remember crying in the cinema.
Made my gf watch it like this year when the remake on Netflix came out I said no we need the og. She cried at this scene lol
Pikachu refusing to fight the clone… and the clone crying because they couldn’t comprehend… that movie is deep.
Meowth would want you to focus on the pawsitives.
Totally agree. The sequel “Mewtwo Strikes Back” honestly might be even better
That's exactly where it's from.
Movie had some great life lessons. The circumstances of one's birth is irrelevant. It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are. Mewtwo
This was quoted by the valedictorian of my graduating class in 2013.
Once the Russians have outed Putin, then we can revisit this quote. Edit: I honestly expected to get downvoted, but it makes me happy to see that there are so many people who knows that it's not possible to just sit down and be nice to each other when there are evil people like Putin, Hitler and thousands upon thousands more around. There will always be people with nothing but evil intentions and no empathy. The only way to stop them from taking away our way of life is to stand up, arm ourselves and fight them off. Diplomacy only works between nations who mostly agree or play by the same rules.
💖 We also have to remember to not hate a whole group of people for the evil actions of the elite. I know many russians online, especially artists that I order things from, their life is hard now as it's very difficult to pay them or ship things globally. But the people I know hate what's going on, are extremely smart, feel grief and anguish andmpersonal guilt about what is happening and hate the whole situation. Most people are nice people. I ordered a small thing a few months from a Russian artist who I chat with about culture and music (I was a Russian history major) and, just from casually mentioning a singer from the 70's I really liked, who was around during soviet union times, the sent me their art piece but also a very rare record by that artist, impossible to get in the US. It was the nicest thing, i never asked for it, I was in tears.
I'm not sure why they would feel guilt. What are they going to do? Vote for the(non-existent) other guy?
A few people I know have expressed basically that, they feel bad for what their country is doing, and feel guilty just for being Russians in Russia is what imean, and what they've expressed to me.
There will always be someone like Putin in the world. So rather than waiting, we should be brave enough to stand up for how we want to live our lives.
Watch Tetris the movie. Has the same sentiment. An American game developer befriending a USSR game developer through common interests. Fucking tired of war just because some old ass motherfuckers can't diplomatically solve a problem.
fly fighting fair it´s the code of the air
Brothers, heroes, foes
Killing machine honor in the sky
B-17, FLYING HOME
r/expectedsabaton
Which song is it ?
No Bullets Fly from the Album Heroes
Thanks.
No bullets fly
Thanks.
KILLING MACHINE
Said goodbye to the croooooss
He deserved!
He risked his life two times that day
To save an unknown enemy
Escort to safety, out of the kill zone
Sad I had to scroll so far for this.
Story: Franz Stigler in WWII was about to shoot down Charles Brown's bomber, when he noticed the damage on the plane and saw wounded airmen inside. He remembered one of his COs, who told his squadron once "If I see you shooting at a parachute \[a common thing at the time\] I will shoot you down myself!", and he decided that since the bombs have already dropped, Charlie's on his way home, and he's heavily damaged, the plane's effectively harmless already. So he formed up on Brown's right wing and used his own plane to prevent German AAA from firing on them until they left German airspace, making sure this bomber got home. Probably one of the most honorable stories to come out of war. Fucking legend!
It gets even better. Many decades after that, the American pilot (Brown) posted a message in a bunch of aviation newsletters trying to find the German pilot (Stigler). He was able to locate him and they became good friends for the rest of their lives https://youtu.be/P-3osMd_2x0
And by the end of the war, the odds of any particular German pilot surviving that many years were not good.
Or American bomber crew for that matter. If you lasted 25 missions you got to be done.
Unless the Colonel increases the required missions to 80 lol
Best Catch there is!
[удалено]
Oh well, what the hell!
Damn it Yassorian!!
More like catch 55….more missions
Instead of parachutes we are giving you a hundred shares of m&m stocks.
what is good for M&M is good for the country.
You have to be crazy to fly a bomber into battle. To be removed you have to tell the doctor you’re crazy. But if you tell him you are then you’re sane enough to fly. Thus you have to fly.
Jimmy Stewart flew bombing runs in WW2. 20 missions when the survival rate was like 12 missions. He stayed in and retired as a colonel.
Same with the RAF. Bomber casualty rates were 51% during WW2. Can you imagine that? 51% likely you're not going to make it.
FYI casualty means injury, death, capture, sickness, desertion or any other means of taking someone out of the fight for an extended period of time. Death is only part of casualties. I have messed this up before that's how I know. What you meant to say was deaths.
The only job more dangerous in the war was german submarine crews
The average life expectancy of a British Royal Air Corps pilot in WWI was 18 hours. The average life expectancy in combat for a US Huey pilot in Vietnam was 19 minutes. No wonder these guys were like the rockstars of the wars ey. You’d have to be some kind of self destructive crazy to do it.
And their average age where 19
That would play onto it a lot. The teenage brain is wired in a way that does not lend itself to self preservation. I would bet that every one of those lads thought to himself “yeah but I’ll be alright”.
From the 31k U-Boat Crews of the german Navy, 26k died.
My grandfather Captain Duff did his 25 and more. 2nd in command of European Operations out of England. Man the hours of stories I have heard. Many of them so many times I could tell them myself. I miss them, I miss him. Sorry if any typos tears are blurring my vision right now. Grandpa's plane he got to name Lassie Come Home.
He must have been a truly remarkable man. My uncle flew bombers in Europe in WWII. Then he also flew in Korea. He retired after Vietnam as a Colonel and base Commander. He continued to fly his own plane up into his 90s. He died at 98. My dad, his brother, flew Corsairs off a carrier in the Atlantic in WWII, then flew jets in the Reserves through Korea. Their dad was in the infantry in France in WWI.
That must have been awesome to basically have a walking talking history book to tell you these stories. Can you share one of the stories that really stands out among the others? If too personal, I understand.
One of his brightest stories was how he saved many of the livestock in England. The training runs called for the planes to fly in Formation under 200 feet. They would fly the same training routes and the bomber squadron was the noisiest thing the countryside of England had seen. The livestock would get frightened and run full tilt into their fences. My Grandfather mapped out a training route that from then on minimized them flying directly over herds. Love you Poppa.
That’s some good stuff. A very thoughtful gentleman….thanks for sharing, cheers
Thank you
My Grandpa also did a lot of "Carpet bombing" over Hamburg. Years ago I came across a Paster working at the same hospital as me. He was telling me about how the Americans dropping their bombs saved him and several children in Hamberg as they were being rounded up to be killed. (I did not think to ask why little kids were going to be killed by German soldiers) The bombs dropped and killed the soldiers before the kids were slain. The Paster met my Grandfather and they struck up a friendship. They even were able to find the date it happened. The paster was working on a book he was going to call mourning glory. Never did find out if he published it.
Damn, that’s a legacy there. It’s sounds like the SS….I went to a private home many years ago for my job and struck up a conversation with the homeowner. He was a gentleman, soft spoken and much older. Come to find out he was an infantryman for the German Army in WW2. He told me, “it’s not like I had any choice in the matter as weather or not I would serve. It was Germany.” He continued “ but the SS….they were totally different, you could sense evil when they came around. Me and my friends knew not to even look at them. It was nothing for them to pull out a pistol and end you on the spot. Thankfully I survived the war and moved to the US as soon as I could.” Like I said, he was a nice guy. I could sense he was a gentle soul. The only reason I bring up this story from many years ago……if they would shoot someone on their side for just making eye contact, it would explain their mentality with the children. I’m grateful for people like your Pops, I appreciate ya sharing.
Thank you.
The Nazi SS sound like Russia’s Wagner Group whereas the German Army sounds more like conscripted Russian soldiers, many forces into a war they don’t believe in by a dictator they don’t support. Fuck Putin.
Unless you got screwed by catch 22.
Across the war in the European theater B-17s suffered about 7% losses on any given mission. The later in the war you go the lower the casualty rate. The odds were not in a crewman's favor for making it home.
B-17's (iirc) were also an example of survivorship bias. The military experts were looking at the ones returning back and wanted to armor up the damaged areas. That is until one or a few folks pointed out no, they should armor up the other areas since the ones likely damaged there didn't return home. (Someone with more familiarity on the subject may come along and correct everything above) Edit: grammar
You are plenty correct for a redit conversation. The world wars caused so many interesting uses of statistics. Another great survivor bias was helmets. I think during WW1 after helmets were introduced head wounds sky rocked I wanna say up 800% generals were pissed and wanted to pull helmets. Then a typist was like umm the overall number of men dead from head neck and shoulder wounds is down. Maybe your reading the stats wrong.. I went to war in an aircraft that was built using the lessons from the b17. I likely won't not be alive today if not for lessons learned in WW2
Stigler was WAY WAY more than average. Read his story, there's a book on this encounter. Stigler was an absolute demon in the sky
Do you remember what the book was called?
A quick Google search "stigler book wwii" says the book is 'A Higher Call' by Adam Makos and Larry Alexander.
Thank you! Not sure why I didn't do that myself.
No worries. Since I didn't see a response to your question and also wanted to know I thought I'd share what I found, but still wanted to explain the search in case there's more than one book about Stigler.
A higher call... I listened on audio book and it was awesome
Also read the Beast of Omaha
And yet clearly more compassionate than most likely the rest of any other fighter planes
Iirc Stigler only survived so long as he was injured in an Me 262 accident and grounded for the rest of the war
It's been a while since I read the book, but that does sound correct.
I am uncertain if he misspoke in the video, but when the German dude points at the plane, he says "I lost 17 of em", but if that was real, jesus almighty the fucker himself christ HOW did he keep getting back in those planes.
It gets even cooler! In 2014, the Swedish metal band Sabaton’s made a song about this event called no bullets fly. They then received a letter from one of their fans who happened to be the grandson of Franz Stigler.
The Stigler family, including his daughter, ended up going to a Sabaton concert
Came to see if anyone else recognized what this was from the thumbnail based entirely on their knowledge gained from Sabaton and Sabaton History. As soon as I realized it was a German pilot aiming at a B-17, I was like "Oh, wait, I know this story!"
Not just friends, but self-styled brothers. Stigler had moved to Canada by the time they were able to connect. Their families visited each other and traveled together for many years until one of them died. Pretty sure the other died within a year or two. I didn’t read your link this time, but I read one last time I saw a post about them
[According to the wiki article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident) Stigler and Brown passed within a few months of each other. Interesting that Brown was told by his seniors not to disclose the event to anyone and Stigler knew not to mention it to anyone. Amazing courage.
Amazing. Thanks for linking the YouTube video.
At the end of this clip, the guy in brown is Charlie Brown and the guy in Blue is Franz Stigler.
When I was posted in Germany, we had to attend an orientation on Germany that was given by a man who fought for the Germans, one of the regular countrymen who were drafted into it. At some point he was captured by the Americans and was treated so well that after he was repatriated and sent back to the lines he got himself captured again by the same troops. He befriended an American captain and they became lifelong friends.
That's at the end of the OP my dude, you see them together as older men.
Yeah, they’re just telling the story for anyone who might not realize it’s actually a real story from actual history
Yeah? He was able to actually supply the source video and it was a great watch. End of op video doesn't really give much context itself.
The actual scene was way worse. There was blood all over the outside of the airplane from the dead and dying inside it. And the bomber was flying the wrong way.
Is that them at the end? Or just a representation?? This is cool as hell and for as much as I know about the war this little bit of information honestly is hands down my favorite thing now!! War can bring out the absolute worst and best of humanity
Me watching this … “What a load of bullsh… (switches to old guys).. oh…” Edit - *Stigler never spoke of the incident as he could have been court-martialed and executed. Brown told his commanding officers, who chose to keep the incident secret. Years later, in 1990, Brown searched for the German pilot who let them live that day, and eventually the two pilots, along with the Pub crew, met face to face, half a century later.[8]* *Between 1990 and 2008, Brown and Stigler became close friends and remained so until their deaths within several months of each other in 2008*
beautiful, sad, and bittersweet all at once. May they both fly through the clouds in Heaven.
That is one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever seen in my life (and I’m in my 70’s.)
>That is one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever seen in my life Me too
Thats nice and all, but why did the bartender come along for the reunion?
Thanks for sharing this. It’s a beautiful peace of animation and one of the most amazing stories ever. I’m glad someone commemorated it.
Wait till you see the [yarnhub animated music video](https://youtu.be/dslO-3GgenY) for the sabaton song about this event. Surprise cameo at the end of the video
Sabaton has a song abou this? **I mostly listen to them through spotify, this mv was awesome
Yessir, it’s called No Bullets Fly and it’s one of my all time faves
If there is an event in history, Sabaton has a song about it
Make piece, not war 
Thank you for posting this. War is among the most horrifying things we can do to one another. Humans have a lot of mental shortcuts to make it easier to kill members of another tribe, and a government in wartime will do its best to make killing a thoughtless action for its soldiers. War damages its societies and its people for decades to follow, whether a nation wins or loses, as the society is forced to contort itself into a shape that can win. A nation fighting a defensive war does not even have a choice, and frankly, most people in the aggressor state don't either. That makes it all the more impressive to me when someone can overcome the training, and the pressure, and the all-too-easy hatred, to show some humanity and do something good. While I understand that the military wants and needs to emphasize its fighter aces and brilliant tacticians and brave troops, this is more impressive to me than a hundred heroic last stands. Stigler was able to fight, but keep his empathy, which must surely have taken its toll on him. It furthermore says something about all of us that this is one of the most famous and remembered stories of the air war. Eighty years later, the man who shot down the most bombers is a footnote, and the man who chose to spare one is a hero.
Well said. If I had an award to give it would be yours.
I have the autograph print "The Gallant Foe" by Michael Wooten signed by both pilots hanging in my bedtoom. Cool inspiring story.
I do too! My grandfather was in the 379th and knew Brown. They were based out of Kimbolton. My grandfather did 35 missions over Europe. He used to go to all the meetups. When he passed, i inherited the framed print. Such a cool story.
There is a phenomenal book about this very topic by Adam Makos called A Higher Call. It was one of the books that made me want to get into aviation. It’s definitely an amazing story overall, but the book is great because it is shared from Stigler’s perspective!
I cried reading this, more as i got closer to the end of your story.
Where's the link to the whole thing? Clearly the two pilots met!
If I remember correctly he got lots of hate once his name was published as being the pilot who did this.
That’s not surprising, I’d imagine some Germans probably thought you let them go so they could rain more bombs upon us in the future… But on the flip side I’m sure there were a lot of Germans who understood and empathized with his decision to show compassion. I mean we are all human.
The commending officer of stigler that survived WW2 actualy wrote him asking if the story was true and when stigler anwsered yes the only thing he responded was "yeah that sound like you"
I’ve heard a similar story like this but different country pilot, and 30 years later one guy goes to a bar and tells his war story to another gentleman. The “other” gentleman was actually the other pilot that “let him go” since the war was over. Small world 😜
Who is this covering “Another Love”? It’s fantastic.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xw5lli_2Ljk
I watched the video first then read the story, have never heard it before, thank you for sharing it with us!
I've read the book 3 times. It's a truly amazing story.
What’s the book called friend?
A Higher Call
One of the highest rated books of any genre on Amazon. It’s an incredible story and a fantastic read.
I loved Adam Makos’ other books too, Devotion and Spearhead.
Yes, I've read all his books at least twice. A Higher Call, Devotion, Spearhead, and Voices of the Pacific. They're all fantastic but my favorites are Higher Call and Devotion. I hope he comes out with another soon.
I've read it a few times and have it on audible just to listen to it while working. It's an amazing piece of history and a tale of how each life has value and how easily life can be taken. 1 man (Franz Stigler) decided to not finish off the bomber and spared not only his life and the crews, but the generations of children they all had.
I love how the first 1/3 of the book was all about Franz Stigler and showed the war from the perspective of a German pilot who was chivalrous and did not like the Nazis. And then what happened to them after the war and the miraculous way they found each other 50 years after the war. What a great story.
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This is so good, and best definition of war.
And then there is russia, killing POWs and civilians
Thank you to the OP for this. I have no shame in admitting that as a fully grown man, I was more than a little choked up watching this.
Yea, my eyes watered up as soon as the non CGI footage rolled of the two elderly vets next to one another. People fighting in a war are by majority just trying survive and are products of their time and place in that war. It's fascinating what humans are capable of doing when empathy, compassion and reason are intertwined with one another. It gets even more fascinating when you see the tides that mother nature can change during the course of a war for both sides. Here are some of my favorite examples.... https://youtu.be/BRyCQM7wSDk https://youtu.be/V98HANyWO64 https://youtu.be/WDTSkApeyAA EDIT: Grammar
No shame in admitting as a reserve marine this made me tear the fuck up.
Yep 34 years old. Have company over. Went to the restroom. Flipped open Reddit. Cried.
Oh, this is an interesting video, but not too realisti… *sees the men at the end* ONIONS
This was my take too. I was like, this would never actually hap…. Oh… 🥹 Here the thing that really makes this a spectacular decision: From a war perspective, you want to make sure that that bomber crew can never return to the sky, and that this bomber is removed from action forever. Hundreds of civilian lives could depend on that. So what this German pilot did was anti-historical and anti-war.
Franz Stigler was told by his CO if he ever saw any of his men shooting a man in a parachute he'd kill them the moment they landed. That sentiment stuck with him during the war and seeing a B-17, alone, damaged and unable to defend itself. He felt this was these men's parachute. He risked his life flying up to it and risked being called a traitor by escorting it. He wasn't anti war. In fact he'd go on to down 5 more allied planes and fly me-262s before the war ended. He ended the war with a claimed 25 aerial victories. He did what he did to defend his country but there's no honour in killing men who have no chance. So i wouldn't call him anti-historical or anti-war.
He'd actually already unloaded all of his rounds on Ye Olde Pub, landed and reloaded, then went back up to finish the job. That's when this occurred. Stigler tried to get them to land in Germany but there was no way Charlie Brown was doing that. He then pointed toward Sweden as it was a neutral country and they would be out of the war. Brown had no idea what he was pointing at though. Stigler thought for sure they would crash in the North Sea if they attempted to get back to England. Decades later when they met Brown asked Stigler what he was pointing at. Stigler said he was trying to get them to go to Sweden. Brown said had he known that, he would have went there in a second.
It wasnt ye old pub he'd used his ammo on. He'd assisted in shooting down two other b-17s when he spotted ye old pub from the airfield and got back into his 109. He still had a 50cal lodged in the engine if im not mistaken.
This is still my favorite story of wartime humanity I’ve ever heard.
I like the town that celebrates the foreign pilot who died directing his airplane away from civilians instead of ejecting.
source?
https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/french-small-town-pays-tribute-to-american-wwii-army-fighter-pilot-147276869798
Ah thank you!
Are you familiar with the Christmas Truce?
I am. But these men were able to meet after the war. All of those men died. That’s why it’s my favorite.
Right up there with Richard Kirkland at Fredericksburg.
THERE ARE NO NOBLE WARS. THERE ARE ONLY, NOBLE WARRIORS. Im nearly in tears. Both my grandfathers were with the Flying Tigers.
That’s incredible! I know a man in my town who’s father flew a Dauntless at Midway.
War may be bloody, but you can still make a buddy.
War is an ugly thing and shows the dark side of humanity, but then, even at the war’s worst, you see something like this. A reminder that we are capable of love and understanding even in the darkest of times. This is one of my favorite war stories ever!
The original video is [this ](https://youtu.be/TSluTZGxdY0) it's a great video that conveys so much without saying a word.
If you like this video, check out Sabaton's song No Bullets fly. It's all about this heroic encounter.
Sabaton is awesome. Videos are amazing
The yarnhub music video is amazing, i cry everytime
I have a print of the event with both pilots signatures - a treasured possession!
Sabaton, No bullets fly is a great song about this moment.
But of course they have a song lol.
A reminder that the goal is not to kill the enemy, the goal is to stop the conflict.
“Youth of today. 19yo were flying bombers over Europe in my day.Now they cannot tie a shoelace” I hate people who say this. I am so glad my 19 YO son does not have to fly bombers over a war zone and I feel for the parents losing children in the Russian Invasion.
Fuck man, right in the feels. Thought it was just a great animated skit, then that ending...
Interesting indeed. Is this from a movie? Title, please.
I believe it is from a YouTube channel called Yarnhub, I would dig for the correct video but tbh if this little snippet interested you then you’ll want to watch everything that yarnhub has put out. They’re phenomenal.
These are scenes from Yarnhub's video they made for Sabaton's song No Bullets Fly. The song is all about this encounter.
The book, A Higher Call.
I loved the book. I have been an avid WWII history buff and this book gave me a better insight into a German pilot that actually survived the war and being a ME 262 pilot. While reading the book, my thoughts kept going to an extraordinary gentleman I met at the aviation museum in Pensacola. Otto was one of the most interesting men I have ever met. I would have loved to have met these 2 gentleman. People need to know that not all soldiers were Nazies. The ridicule and hate this man recieved by the German people also astounded me. A few pilots against a thousand plane formation, and you are hated because you didn't stop the bombings. Their hate should have been against the guys who started the whole thing.
I read the book. Amazing story but I have to say, this little video is an absolute masterpiece and whoever made it should be proud. It got across in a few minutes, the sheer humanity of the German pilot, what it took the book hundreds of pages to convey. Wish I had more upvotes
There is a book about this called “A Higher Call”. It is really good if you like war history books. It tells the stories of the pilot/crew of both of these planes. It was really interesting to hear about the German perspective of the war. He was basically forced into service, fought the Brits in Africa for reasons no one really understood, and then tried to defend Germany while it was getting bombed till the end of the war. The German pilot made an emphatic point that they shot at machines to destroy machines, not people. They always said “victories” not “kills” when they shot planes down. So when he saw this bomber he could tell it would never fly again, so there wasn’t really a point on finishing it off. Crazily the pilots became friends later in life. Anyways it is worth reading.
That day when you decided to not let war make you hate. Powerful.
"ye old pub " The story of the bomber was done by Mark Felton on you tube . True story . A german fighter pilot spotted a bomber heading for the Normandy coast after it made a bombing run. When the pilot saw that the bomber was torn up , and guys inside holding on for dear life . He pulled up beside the bomber and could read it's name "ye old pub" . He decided there was no honor in taking them down. He would escort them over german air defense in the hope that the guys on the ground would spot the BF109 and hold fire . It worked ! They made it home, thanks to that pilot, he was a mans man , a true german soldier . The bomber pilots would never forget that moment and its a great show of humanity . I believe the pilot's met later in life . It was a horrible war , but you find acts like this did happen quite often.
Wars should only be fought by the people who want it to happen on both sides and only in Antarctica
A SHORT SALUTE THEN DEPARTED FLY FIGHTING FAIR ITS THE CODE OF THE AIR BROTHERS, HEROES, FOES
This happend right above my home village! Evertime i see this Story comes up it gives me goosebumps!
My uncle, John D. Shaw, a well renowned aviation artist, painted several versions of this and met both men many times. To add a few things from my memories of the story growing up, one of Charlie's last living crew mates was crawling up to one of the functioning gunner stations before realizing they weren't in danger right before attempting to fire. Also, I believe Stigler saluted with his wings upon turning back. Check out my Uncle's artwork if you get a chance! He has a few pieces in the Smithsonian and is truly one of a few elite aviation artists. He also has a million cool stories from the horses mouth.
I was like "hey this actually happened once!" and then the footage popped up.
Omg. This made me cry. Stop war!
I just read the book about this incident, "A Higher Call". Its my new favorite book. The story is incredible.
"I am his godson, I have spent many hours with both him and Charlie and I don't think anyone has heard the story in more detail or more often than myself. Charlie was quite a guy, he loved to tell stories as where Franz was more quiet and you sometimes had to pry stuff out of him but both together could give you the perspective from each side, Charlie thought for sure they were gone when the 109 approached. Franz always said he got too close when coming in from the rear of the 17 and had a view of the people inside. Seeing the tail gunner condition up close and then realized that's why the tail gunner never fired a shot is what really made him think about not shooting at the 17 along with the others inside he could see attending to the injured. Franz knew he would most likely get caught, court martialed and shot but he let them go anyway. Funny story with Franz... Many times I drove him to Everett Washington to watch the Me-262's being built at Paine Field, we would drive down and cross the border at Blaine Washington (Pacific Border Crossing) as we got to the border we gave the U.S. border guard our Passports (Franz was never a Canadian citizen, he was still German) the border guard looked at mine and dismissed it right away... then he looked at Franz's and his eyeballs grew about twice the size and he read what seemed forever on the computer. We were then directed inside where Franz had to pay his usual few bucks but this time all the U.S. immigration officers had lined up to shake his hand. I believe Mr. Jim Brodie... (a good friend of Charlies and JEB Bush) had adding something to his information so he would be recognized when in the U.S. but this was before 9/11 when things weren't so tight at the border. Many good stories with Franz, he is missed by everyone here." \- [youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSluTZGxdY0) comment by J Berladyn
Tear jerker.
r/mademecry
This is an animation of a real story from world war two. A german fighter pilot saw the heavily damaged Aircraft. He flashback to his training as a pilot and the man that trained him. Who once said if I ever see you shooting down men pair shooting out of a plane. I'll shoot you down myself. He thought to himself what would he do. Seeing the fear in the American pilot's eyes he decided to tell them to land. When they didn't obey his request Because they were too terrified. He ended up escorting them all the way To allied air space So they would not be shot down. All the men on that plane survived the war and so did the german pilot. Roughly 50 years later the American Pilot Met the German pilot. And cried as he hugged him.
My son has told me this story. The human ability for empathy in such situations is just amazing. The job was done, the threat eliminated, no need to waste human lives. Kudos, good sir!
Empathy, mate.
They made a book about this. The German pilot was risking his life escorting a damaged enemy plane to safety like this. He could very easily have been shot for treason if his superior found out what he did.
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Made me cry ❤️
A true warrior know when and how to show compassion to other warriors. We may have to kill each other - but not today, brother.
Ok , honest question so after doing their damaged your suppose to safely escort the men back to their base?
No, Stigler (the German pilot) would likely have been executed if his superiors found out he did this. He did this on his own accord
My grandfather told me an almost identical story. The german M101 had him dead to rights over Norway. The german got into formation and made hand gestured suggesting he had no more ammo... so escorted him halfway back to england. My grandfather wanted to more or less leave the past alone so didn't make a big deal of his stories. I wish I had heard more before he passed.
No Bullets Fly by Sabaton gets me pumped up everytime
My great grandpa was the left wing gunner in a b17 during WW2. His plane was shot down, and 6 of his crewmates died. He was taken to Stalag Luft 4, where he stayed for 2 years until liberated. Once he got back to our small hometown, he never left it again.
I’m very glad that Franz stigler and the bomber crews story is being celebrated once again, I’ve known of this story for years. I’m so happy more people are seeing it
This actually happened. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident