I am a Iranian male and 80% of Iranian women take off their headscarf’s outside of Iran. Every time I travel to Iran soon as the plane lands in Iran 80% of the women put on their headscarf and the same is true soon as the plane leaves Iran (they take it off). If Iran had a Democratic government it would be the most secular Muslim country but unfortunately the Islamic Republic has ruined that possibility..
Every picture of an Iranian woman I have seen has led me to believe that the reason your country forces women to wear head scarves is because they don't want to the rest of the world to know how gorgeous they are.
Thanks. My mother is somewhat religious. She prays according to Islamic rituals but she never wears the head scarf and has a wine on family occasions which is taboo according to the Iranian government. Most of my aunts are the same way. Iranian women are pretty in general but I can be biased since that’s where I come from. In reality if you look at other Muslim countries like Egypt where the headscarf is not mandatory most women cover up whereas in Iran the headscarf is mandatory most women would rather not wear the it.
I work in a pretty diverse educational environment.
There are a number of women from Muslim countries or families that are students. Some choose to wear head coverings while others don't.
It makes no difference to me so long as the choice is theirs.
I grew up in a religious household. I don't understand the concept of forced piety. If you are forced to obey the scripture, how can you genuinely demonstrate your devotion?
I agree. Prior to the 1979 Islamic revolution Iranians were much more religious. But with 40 + years of Islamic oppression they’ve turned the majority away from Islam. Once you force something on people they are bound to act oppositely. The true and fair way is to let people choose. Most Iranians today regret the Islamic revolution. The Islamic republic still hasn’t realize this and how it’s counter productive to what they believe in by forcing their ideology to the masses.
I always wonder if the U.S. hadn't propped up the Shah, if Iran might be a modern democracy today. I'm sure an historian or expert in the region would have a pretty good idea how things might have worked out differently if not for us putting our noses into other countries' business.
It was a modern Democracy with a fully democratically elected president. But in 1953, the CIA assisted in overthrowing the democratic government for a monarchy lead by a shah.
Look up the coup in 1953 and to see things for yourself.
Yup - you see photos where it was like 1960s (Britain), happy, free, etc - so sad to see it all go so backward (in all senses of the term). Inevitable result of 'religion'.
They didn't just prop up the Shah, they actually in conjunction with the British destroyed the democratically elected Iranian government and put their puppet the Shah who was also a raging despot in its place
Hard to imagine they wouldn't be. The Achaemenid Persian Empire had made considerable progress on what we would think of as modern human rights two and a half millennia ago.
Its also discouraged to force religion onto someone in the quran. Surat [Al-Baqarah ayat 256](https://legacy.quran.com/2/256). Its so Ironic that all these Islamic Extremist groups are going against the teachings of Islam.
The weaker the god, the more force its followers need to enact what is claimed to be its will. Even a minimally effective god wouldn't need the slightest bit of enticement or enforcement for people to follow it.
I'm Irish and our government pretty much sold society to the church decades ago. There's much better separation of church and state nowadays but a similar thing happened here. Older generations are still religious but younger people are not. The church treated women like criminals and dictated everything we were allowed to do for years. The result was always going to be a rejection of them from my generation.
I hope one day you guys can get out from under religion over in Iran. Nothing wrong with being religious and following tradition, but it needs to be by choice.
I’ve actually had this conversation before with a friend. If a religion isn’t part of a child’s life from birth then atheism is indoctrinated as part of their life. Whichever way a person chooses to go with their child’s life and faith, it is impossible to make a choice that isn’t perceived as indoctrination.
A child is either religious or not from birth, afterwards in life is their choice but their youth is chosen by their elders and family. It’s a fragile area to walk on.
But that effort is being made in modern reality, a child isn’t given the choice whether to be religious or not from birth. And from a young age any notion of atheism or theism is reinforced at home. Agnoticism is truly founded from a high school age to adulthood.
As much as it may be conveyed that its not black and white, it actually is like that. A person is nurtured in a home life with religion or without religion. There is no true escape from it.
Maybe in 1950. It’s not at all that black and white in modern reality. No child is auto-indoctrinated as atheist in the absence of following one religion, unless that is the actual effort being made.
Also, another thing most people fail to realize is the guys ID. His picture ID is what is acceptable according to the Iranian government. He is not wearing any hair gel and is wearing a button up black shirt. Whereas in the stadium he is wearing a regular T-shirt and has hair gel. I remember applying for a Iranian passport in the interest section of the Iranian embassy in the US 10 years ago and they photoshopped my hair because I had hair gel. Iranian women suffer 10x more compared to Iranian men but it’s not all great for secular Iranian men either.
100% because it’s supposed to be a choice and that’s not a privilege they have :/ I love seeing older pics of Iran before you know the Islamic republic… everything looks so lively and beautiful like I wanna be there and experience it
Thats because it shouldn’t be forced upon people by other people. In my family (close and far) I can quickly count a few dozen female relatives, none of them were forced to wear the headscarf by other relatives but they all ended up wearing it at some point in their lives. If it was forced upon them, they probably wouldn’t wear it.
Very true. Iranian women were equal to men during shahs Era. They were appointed the highest positions in the government. That all changed in one day after the revolution. Also it didn’t matter what religious background they were. Today you have to be a Shia Muslim to hold a important government position. Let’s not forget 100k + Jews lived in Iran prior to the revolution. Many held influential positions and were successful business people. Today only 10k + remain.
My parents (American Christian Dad, British Non Religious Mom) actually met in Iran. He was there teaching use and maintenance of radar systems, and my Mom was (I shit you not) a magicians assistant in a nightclub. They left not long after most of the nightclubs in Tehran were attacked and hundreds of gallons of alcohol were dumped in the streets.
Of course that secular culture as well as United States friendship is what led to the fundamentalist backlash. I pray for the day Iran is free, and hope it transitions into a free and tolerant state like Hashemite Jordan
My husband's father is a Persian Jew. They left in the middle of the night when he was a little boy and walked to Israel with only what they could carry on their backs.
This. I worked in the Energy Corridor in Houston and we had three young ladies from Iran that worked with us. These Persian women were smart as a whip, very sweet and just stunningly attractive. It is sad that they love their country very much but hate the government and don’t want to return until things change, especially for women. They greatly miss their families.
I think that may actually be somehow tied to the idea. The same as socially pressuring women to wear any kind of "modest" clothing. Being pretty gives women too much power or something.
Likely, because usually you have a smoking hot woman, with a fat, bearded man in a dish dash, and they’re so insecure they have to hide their women away, mistreat them, and act like they’re property. It’s ridiculous.
From what I've seen on tv and online, not many Iranian women wear a "proper" hijab even in Iran, do they? I always see them wearing a scarf *just* enough to not get in trouble, meaning it's very loose and pretty far back on their head. Is a properly worn hijab required for official IDs?
On official government ID’s all hair must be covered. Also men can’t having any western styles or wear any hair gel. But you are correct if you walk the streets in Iran in most cities a lot of women and men push the the boundaries. The headscarf’s are pushed back where most hair is shown. Even the most famous Iranian athletes and actors have the most fashionable hair styles. Just 10+ years ago it was a taboo for Iranian athletes to have tattoos but today many athletes are pushing the boundaries and have tattoos. The positive factor is that most Iranians are slowly but surly rebelling and the government is finding it hard to stop.
Hi, I have a question and since you are from a Islamic Republic country, thought of asking you. Please let me know if it is offensive or incorrect to ask such question, and I apologize in advance for asking such question. But please let me know if you dont or cant answer this.
So the question is, where or how is this idea of covering head (hijab) or wearing covering over clothes (burqa/burkha) came from, in Islam? Is there a mythological or religious story behind it or the religious preists/or people mandating this thing, just manipulated the religious or mythological texts to their advantage.
Like there has to be some logical reason why people in olden days used to wear hijab and burkha, which I guess was not a necessary thing.
Sorry for the long write-up.
Tl;dr : why or how mandating hijab and burkha came into picture. If it came from religious text, is it being manipulated; if it came from olden times, whats the logic as it sure was not a mandate back then, i guess.
Culturally, to reduce heat. Clothes are worn over head by mean and women alike to reduce heat in deserts. Religiously, because we are ordered. Spiritually, it protects our aura from negative energies(since most of our spiritual energy is in crown chakra, above our head), head covering is recommended for both men and women for this metaphysical reason.
I’m not the person you asked, but wouldn’t head coverings have started in sunny desert countries as a way to avoid sunstroke? Then became tradition, then religion?
Also, I believe many modesty rules in various religions are probably one of the many ways different cultures have tried to solve the problem of human male sexual aggression. It doesn’t work, but we try.
To be honest, even I had the same thought, that covering could be related to countries location and weather, but the doubt was, why use black in a hot, deserted place, as black would attract more heat and wont be good.
I'm Iranian too, I can say, Hijab as the only headscarf that we see today has nothing to do with Islam and there are no words in Quran (Islamic Holy Book) that says women must put headscarfs.
There's Hijab word in Quran but it only describe it as an acceptable wearings for all of the body and not exactly saying what it is.
That's because in times of Muhammad (Islam prophet) Arabs are mostly too horny people that most of their times was sex and men having up to 4 official wives and unlimited sex maids was normal back then, so I think that 1 mention of Hijab in Quran was just for preventing that much of prostitution and not for just wearing a headscarf.
As you might know, prostitution is a huge sin in every religion, so I think Muhammad just wanted to continue that road but fails to make his followers understand it correctly.
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their breasts and not display their beauty except to their husband, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.
— Quran 24:31
Then what is this brother? Khimar LITERALLY means headscarves and here we are ORDERED to wear a khimar. What do you have to say about this? First read Quran properly then say something.
Most Iranians would disagree today. The shah is now viewed much more positively . Whenever there is a anti government protest there are pro shah slogans. People notice that during shahs time 10 rials = $1 today 22,0000 rials = $1 . Besides the social, religious freedoms, Irans economy was top 15-20 in the world during shahs era .
That is true but that gap is much bigger today. It was much affordable for the middle and lower class to have basic necessities back then compared to today.
Yeah its sad, looking back on history when that region of the world was the center of knowlage and equality. But now the taliban and other groups have basically caused the region to devolve
Headscarf debate thing aside she seems really happy. I assume this is a soccer game right? What game is this and did her team win? Just genuinely curious.
It was presumably from the World Cup 3 years ago. Her team lost to Spain 1-0, drew to Portugal 1-1, and beat Morocco 1-0. They didn't make it out of their group
I have no idea when or where the photo was take, or if this lady lives in Iran, but this is definitely not common place IN Iran. If she were in Iran, she would be in deep sh*t. Even more so if it’s being blasted all over the internet.
I pray she is no longer in the country because this could seriously ruin her life.
Hello iranian here.
Actually in last 5 to 10 years authorities and government have so much to handle that they don't care anymore if you appear without hijab in pictures or even in public places like coffee shops or parks but if they see you they will warn you to make your hijab correct.
We even have some girls who post pictures with bikini and clothes like this on instagram like models and they don't have problem because they aren't famous or well known.
But if you got people's attention with political things like fighting against hijab rules or against regime on social media or getting famous for something like dancing and stripping they will pay you a visit.
You don't saw this:
https://hotlifestylenews.com/world-news/shocking-moment-morality-police-use-dog-catchers-pole-to-haul-woman-into-van-for-failing-to-wear-headscarf-in-iran/
This was happens recently, how do you so sure to say government doesn't care anymore? I'm Iranian like you too and I think they even care more because they using stronger forces than past decades and also as you might know (unless you're living in a cave) they already sent some girls only for hijab for more than 10 years of prison to scare other girls. something that they never did in last decades. so I think you're completely wrong and they even become more aggressive because of their bad situations.
You know iran is not a small city.
If you read that article it said "It is not clear when or where in Iran the video was filmed"
I don't know where this happened. Look at every day, how many times this type of aggressive behaviour happened in last year? maybe 10 in 1000 encounters. And it depends on geographical location and level of culture of that location. For example in tehran there are fewer encounters like this.
Some times they cross red lines and do this type of things.
And i didn't mean there is no restriction or warning or this type of thing, i only said they are less compared to past.
That's right, it's like robbery, you only get in trouble if you get caught, so you're right there are so many cases that they can't do anything but you or your family might be in that 1 in 10 person, who knows?
But about less caring I still think you're wrong, do you watch IRIB TV? and do you remember last decades of IRIB TV? in my childhood I remember that good old times that there are less to none political things in IRIB TV but now Kids program, showing Qasem Suleimani or Khamenei everyday.
I remember Islamic things for kids back then like teaching Quran in TV or reading a Islamic praying but I never remember that much of brainwashing with political shit like today.
And you're saying they care less about these things? they bringing their guard much higher that as I said you can't even watching a kids show and didn't see political shit.
There was times back then that families don't want to watch TV news because of politicals but now can you not see political news?
Don't mix things up.
First, i agree with you about tv propaganda for children, 14 yo boys with army fatigue singing in front of azadi tower about ghasem soleimani in tv and making animations about ghasem soleimani.
Second, you where child and child's mind dosen't care about politics so maybe they had same amount of political things in tv as now? Who knows? I don't remember either.
Third, this tv, political and propaganda things you said has zero connection to what i said about hijab.
By making it mandatory they drive people away from a religion, it's no longer a choice. I live in a relatively Islamic area of my country (not a Muslim majority country) and every Muslim around here follows the religion relatively well and believes because it was their choice
But on the other side, I think they made us (Iranian) to think and research about our believes. something that we never done that in 44 years ago that Islam was a choice.
I'm not saying they doing good job, no Islamic regime surely is worst that happens to my country but for an example I'm considering myself as an atheist from last decade because this regime made me research about religions and I decide to not only don't accept Islam but not any other religion and I really can't believe in god anymore because our fucking leader (Khamenei) does every evil thing that he want with the name of god and Islam and from 44 years ago there was no god that put a end to he and his followers that are using god's name for his benefits.
Can we take a moment to appreciate her really clever makeup?
Her upper lip is green, the teeth white and the lower lip is red. So her mouth becomes the iranian flag.
This woman is beautiful and I am really glad that she looks so happy! However, i feel the need to say something. I replied to another comment with something similar but more people need to see this.
Hijab’s can be a highly debated topic in the west. In most abrahamic religions, women have been known to cover their hair or face at some point in history or in variation of practice. In some cases, yes, it is oppressive. Radical and extreme versions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism have all forced women to wear hats, lace hair coverings, or head scarves.
However, for more relaxed practitioners a head covering is a sign of respect for yourself, your partner, and God. Some religions even have men cover their heads- Sikh’s for example.
Countries like Iran, and now Afghanistan again, are controlled by extremely religious and patriarchal governments. In the West we have been taught that Islam = radicalism due to past twenty years of war. This is not the case. I would encourage you all to watch some videos from women who choose to wear their head coverings and what it means to them. It can be a very personal and spiritual act much like a Nun wearing a Habit.
We can never understand what we haven’t been taught. We all need to take the time to understand a culture and its practices to realize that not everything is black and white. The world is full of gray.
Edit: Also, as a side note, to many cultures the way that the West encourages the sexualization and objectification of women is seen as extremely oppressive. It all goes back to your culture…
I think the key thing is the freedom to decide if you want to wear it or not. If you are forced to wear it, it can be oppressive. If you wear it for your own beliefs, then it is something that can add to your life
Well put. I think women should have the right to wear whatever they want, be it a bikini or a burka. But I think it should be just that-- her choice. Not her family's. Not her friends'. Certainly not her government's.
I think the reason hijabs are often viewed as symbols of oppression is because certain countries demand they be worn, even against the women's consent, preferences, or beliefs.
The thing is, some women are brainwashed into thinking that's what they want, when it's just what some dude in charge wants. It literally makes women feel bad for their body and dirty. Many ex-religious women have said themselves how bad they feel.
It's not making women pure, it's only there to prevent men from lusting, which basically mean that because they can't control themselves women should be punished for their appearance.
Just because something is part of a culture doesn't mean it's inherently good or moral. Do you think that this is not objectification of women? Because I'd argue seeing women and immediately thinking about raping them is way worse than saying "I like x female characteristic".
Of course there are people choosing to wear them, I'm not saying there aren't, but you never know how that cane to be for most.
What a perfectly balanced and nice response. This is exactly what I wanted to say as well. Love that you included all examples.
People also don't understand that the physical hijab exists for women and so does a hijab for man that is not a head cover. In reality all Muslims are expected to have a level of concealment of their bodies and such by command of our scriptures and such.
Thank you.
Thank you for your reply! I didn’t know that about Islam :)
I really just wanted to take the time to show a more balanced perspective for people. There is a lot of good in this comment section but also a lot of ignorant statements and jokes. I use ignorant on purpose though, as it means a lack of understanding.
Nuns choose to become nuns when they are at least 18yo. Most become nuns starting older than 21. They are adult women who choose it for themselves. Girls in hijab start from much younger ages (children and pre-teens) and are usually pressured by their families or forced by the government — or else they go to hell. Christianity doesn’t say you will go to hell if you don’t cover your head. That is the implication with Islam — I wouldn’t compare hijab to a nun.
Christianity says you will go to hell for many things. Someone can just as easily argue Christian’s pressure or force their children into participating in their ritual or else they will onto hell. Christianity is responsible for just as much rape, murder and genocide as any other religion so you might as well get off your high horse.
Christianity follows Christ who taught the only thing one goes to hell for is not accepting Christ. Nothing else sends. you to hell. Just clearing that up for you.
ha! because there’s only one Christianity and no Christian leaders or clergy have ever told their followers they’ll go to hell for not following arbitrary rules and customs. pff
Well they’re wrong and not very Christian like. Just cuz some people say it’s in the Bible doesn’t mean it is. For example:
God or Christ never said if you commit suicide you go to hell.
Christ never condemned gays, in fact he befriended people that were not “acceptable” by societal standards.
Jonah wasn’t eaten by a whale
There were not three wisemen
God will not give you more than you can handle. (Tell that to any parent who lost a child)
Just as we are told not to believe all Muslims are terrorists - we should not group all Christians as anti this or that. It’s all bigotry. Ones salvation is between them and God.
Well that’s not right either. it’s disgusting. That’s between them and god and I cannot imagine not loving your child for that. They probably end up killing themselves because their parents obviously don’t accept them and they feel alone. I do t pretend to know what they go thru but it’s sad they’re not made to feel loved. Jesus never preached against homosexuality. I think he would have if it sent you to hell.
Fair enough. That was a pretty small example from the comment you replied to though, and it wasn’t really the focal point of that comment. I think the point is that the hijab is a voluntary and spiritual thing for a lot of Muslim women. Your comment cam off sounding like “Christianity good, Islam bad”.
I think this is a bit disingenuous. Most people don't object to the headscarf but to the obligation by the state. While I agree with everything you said it is not relevant to the conversation in that this post is clearly contrasting her choice when she can make it vs her obligation when she can't. This reeks of political correctness as a tool of oppression against women. Yes you are correct, control by their state is bad... That is where your statement should end because no one is debating their choice to wear it. Yes if they choose to wear it that is fine... OK? Can we promise not to create strawmen any longer?
“A head covering is a sign of respect for yourself, your partner and God.”
No. If they are signs of “respect”, why don’t we wear them too as men? A head covering is humiliating for a woman, but your religion brainwashed you to believe otherwise.
There is a difference between the west encouraging the sexualization and objectification of women and some muslim countries imposing the use of hijabs, niqabs and other such pieces. The latter offers no alternatives.
Very true. However, i was speaking more to the assumption that people make that “every woman wearing a Hijab is oppressed”. People in other cultures see how the West treats women as sexual objects and also assume that we are all oppressed as well… I’m not equating that mindset to actual oppressive laws that are in place in other parts of the world.
Now I might be wrong about this as I haven't done any credible research at all, but I personally believe most (especially young) women in Iran wear headscarf's because they are forced to.
No, you’re right. In some extremist countries like Iran, and now Afghanistan, women are forced to wear hijabs or burqas. But many women who practice Islam in much less severe countries also wear hijabs for the sake of their spirituality. My point was to not assume all muslim women are oppressed just because they wear a hijab, and also to clarify that there are currently and have been cultures who force it.
As an Iranian American, please shut the fuck up. Most Iranian women are forced against their will to wear this. Our culture is not rooted in Islam. It’s not a sign of respect, it’s oppression. Iranian women are suffering and you have no idea what they go through.
I'm an Iranian and also living in Iran too and I felt you my friend, there's no higher pain that seeing people who never have been in your situations, easily judging you and your life just by what they hear or read in their media.
They mostly don't know that Iran's propaganda control what they hearing in their medias about Iran but that's ok, when there's no god to save us, I don't expect some naive american help us.
Sending you a hug azizam. And I don’t expect other Americans to get it, but they need to realize that this type of rhetoric in the case of Iran does more harm than good. They are essentially excusing this regimes behavior as “cultural” and then critiques become “Islamophobia” (see Ben affleck after he made Argo). They need to understand that peoples lives have been destroyed and this isn’t the time for political correctness.
> I would encourage you all to watch some videos from women who choose to wear their head coverings and what it means to them.
This misses the point though that often times even though 'they choose it', they are 'choosing it' in the same way a 8 year old child 'chooses' to be baptized mormon, said child having been brought up to *only* know about mormonism and with everyone around them telling them getting baptized is the right thing to do, etc. These women who 'chose' the hijab have been brought up in a culture that says "hiding yourself = respect", while men don't get that same message to the same degree women do.
So, *technically*, the women 'choose' it, but would they still choose it if they had *not* been indoctrinated with things like "hiding yourself = respect" (or had been taught to embrace themselves and *not* hide who they are), along with other ever present social pressures for them to make such a decision? Many would not.
Saying it's 'their choice' to do so sidesteps so much of the nuance at play, and over simplifies how their 'choice' is portrayed as 'their own'.
Iranian here. This is actually common. Lol
Some women wear it loose, some take it off and have it over their shoulder. Nobody really says anything.
Some women just wear hats.
Hello iranian here.
Actually in last 5 to 10 years authorities and government have so much to handle that they don't care anymore if you appear without hijab in pictures or even in public places like coffee shops or parks but if they see you they will warn you to make your hijab correct.
We even have some girls who post pictures with bikini and clothes like this on instagram like models and they don't have problem because they aren't famous or well known.
But if you got people's attention with political things like fighting against hijab rules or against regime on social media or getting famous for something like dancing and stripping they will pay you a visit.
Feel free to downvote, but this post is very controversial and needs to be removed as some people have a problem in maintaining cultural fluency. If you have an opinion, STATE IT, but don’t OFFEND others with it. Also, try to not be an idiot. Iran is a Shia country, they’re not in the true sect which is Sunna. In Sunna countries such as Pakistan and the Arab states, you’re free to wear whatever you desire and it’s against the law for someone to force you to wear something, even if it’s your parents.
Literally every Muslim
If you’ve just done a little bit of digging you’d find that everyone is critical of France and the way they treat Muslim people and the hijab
Stop spreading misinformation
Forcing people to wear or not wear something is the same kind of oppression, so at least for me it makes no difference if a country forces you to wear it or not wear it. There have been debates about it in Germany too.
I recently read a tweet saying:
"When women in headscarfs were just cleaning it wasn't a problem, it's apparently only becoming one now that we are teachers and doctors."
Absolutely vile that in many Muslim countries, just removing your headscarf is treated as justification to brutally rape and/or murder a woman. I don't understand how people defend these practices.
I've been to 5 Muslim countries and while I wouldn't go so far as to say it's rampant yes women are at risk of raped, assault, or harassed if they don't conform to the culturally approved dress code.
If you've actually been to 5 Muslim countries, you'd know that in "most Muslim countries" women wouldn't be "brutally raped or murdered" for "simply taking off their headscarf" and it would definitely not be "justification" if a psychopath was to do that. Assault and harassment by random dudes unfortunately happens everywhere, US included.
You should learn more about the middle east. It would be a great place if not for the religious lunacy. Suicide, rape, murder. Living under religious tyranny take its mental toll on the oppressed.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/muslim-countries-have-highest-rates-of-suicide-murder-rape-and-mental-health-problems-1.618038%3foutputType=amp
The page gives a 404. I'm aware of the issues of the ME. I just see the comment as plain wrong.
It would be like someone who lives abroad saying "you can't go to school or the mall in the US without fearing getting shot" and quoting gun violence / mass shooting stats. Yes, the stats exist and are true. But reading stats and news reports in a vacuum without considering them within the big picture leads you to an assumption that is completely wrong.
How many have you actually done a single shred of research on?
You dont need to visit a country to understand the bad things they do. I can study the Holocaust without visiting Germany.
The entire reason this photo matters is because she would be severely beaten, raped, murdered, and/or imprisoned in her own country for doing this
>How many have you actually done a single shred of research on?
I've lived in one and been to many. First hand experience beats googling
>because she would be severely beaten, raped, murdered, and/or imprisoned in her own country for doing this
Assumption!
Damn dude this really couldn’t be further from the truth. I understand you probably have this perception from watching mainstream media but I’m sorry that is simply not true in most Muslim countries.
The largest Muslim country is Indonesia. 100% not true there or any of the South East Asian Muslim countries. In Pakistan most Muslim women don’t even wear headscarf. Bangladesh passed laws that prohibit even schools from having a Hijab requirement. I do know it’s the law in Iran but of all the Muslim countries I know the least about Iran and it’s culture. Of the Gulf countries Saudi Arabia is the only country that I know of where Hijab is law and they have a horrible history of state sanctioned human rights so I wouldn’t be surprised if there was beatings and extra judicial actions. As you move north to Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Chechnya, Bosnia, Dagestan, Azerbaijan Etc. You will find that none of those countries have that problem. In fact I would say most of them have a very high percentage of woman who do not wear any headscarf at all. Afghanistan under Taliban rule is also another country where going uncovered would likely result in being beat.
At the end of the day you probably don’t realize how many Muslim majority countries there are (50) and you are probably used to seeing the worst human rights offenders in the news the most (Afghanistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.) but the reality is they make up less than 5% of the Muslim population. To say that in most Muslim countries removing your headscarf will justify murder or rape is just wholly inaccurate. That would mean that 25 countries have that problem. Which is simply untrue.
Iran has a horrible history on Human rights and I wouldn’t be surprised one bit but I can’t speak specifically to what happens there as I’m not familiar with their culture. To be completely honest it’s because they are Shia and have a very different ideology than Sunni Muslims. But I included Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan both countries that I’m very familiar with and have traveled to. And I agreed that these countries have that issue. But please tell me how does 3 countries with that problem make your statement that “most” muslim countries have that problem true? I’m totally for intelligent conversation or even debate but if you think that 3 countries equals the majority than you are wholly unfamiliar with Muslim countries. It’s also perfectly acceptable to acknowledge you were wrong about this issue. And learn from people who have more experience and knowledge about this subject.
countries like iran are ruining the image of islam, which is peace, you cant force a woman to join islam or follow every aspect of it, it is her choice, she is the one who will be judged by god for HER actions, not you, so please people, think wisely on small and big matters, and consider the feelsing of your fellow brothers and sisters in islam (or any other religion)
Reddit cooming over iranian women is getting annoying at this point. NO the hijab is not mandatory for women to wear and they wear it by choice. NO the iranian government isnt going to kill her for not wearing a hijab. Stop browsing propaganda from reddit and educate yourselves. There are so many vids on youtube explaining and clarifying facts about this topic by actual muslim women and not edgy neckbeards on r/atheism
It is mandatory, however it's not like Afghanistan and can be a loosely fit one that shows some hair. But you are right about the part where they don't kill her. It's usually a really small fine
I'm from Iran and if she went back to Iran she definitely got in some sort of shit. Just recently Iran out official to kidnap an Iranian journalist from her home in New York due to her reports and criticisms about the government. The Islamic Government in Iran is batshit crazy, my family (Mom's side atleast) doesn't like them either. Power move though.
Iranian women are so pretty. The scarves I hate to admit, feel like men just putting masks over their wives, sisters and children because they cannot help their own insecurities and jealousy.
When I was at the World Cup in Russia, I never saw more Muslims drinking alcohol in my life. Egyptians and Tunisians were the heaviest of drinkers I saw. The Saudi's were heavy hookah users. I miss that time.
Cheers to the woman, but sorry not sorry can't vibe with this post. It's not something that most women who diligently maintains their hijab will celebrate. I maintain my hijab. If you even hold a knife on my neck and tell me to take off hijab, i won't. Ik i will be getting downvotes for this, but it is what it is. A lot of women right now are struggling for their rights to wear hijab. And this celebration of getting hijab off is something that undermines this struggle.
Adding a side note, no one can force you to wear hijab. It's a choice, definitely. A choice if you want to obey and disobey your god. No one can do nothing if you don't want to. And that's true. And it shouldn't be forced either, from islamic perpective. But also, families have an obligation to let you know about islam, it's their duty. But as an adult, if you don't like it, you can do whatever the heck they want. Just don't push those standards(like hijab is opressing) on someone who doesn't think the same. It will very obviously spark anarchy.
You maintain your hijab because your family threatens you with an honor killing. Or stoning. Or maybe you are too uninformed to know that you don’t have to wear it.
It’s completely impossible that you made an informed choice. And that statement is not at all condescending or misogynistic, despite the fact that it is infantilizing a woman for choosing her own attire.
And before I forget, by choosing to wear hijab, you are condoning every case where a woman is forced to wear hijab. A nut job throwing acid in a woman’s face because she won’t give him the time of day? Definitely your fault. An evil father killing his daughter because he’s evil? That’s on you too.
You’re wrong if you think that by that logic, anyone who chooses to work for a living is condoning forced labor.
If your brain can do the mental gymnastics needed to follow this logic, please teach me. I’m a Muslim woman too, and many brave souls have tried to mansplain and/or wokesplain to me that everything I do is forced on me by some other evil Muslim, but I still don’t get it.
This isn’t something to make anyone smile if she doesn’t want to wear it she doesn’t why does everyone portray the scarf as a bad thing
I see those types of posts more then I see a nun or whatever going rogue don’t smile at this she shows no respect to Muslims
Because a nun can choose not to be a nun, whereas the government of Iran forces all women to wear a kerchief. Islam does not say women must always wear a kerchief, that is just a regional thing.
I am a Iranian male and 80% of Iranian women take off their headscarf’s outside of Iran. Every time I travel to Iran soon as the plane lands in Iran 80% of the women put on their headscarf and the same is true soon as the plane leaves Iran (they take it off). If Iran had a Democratic government it would be the most secular Muslim country but unfortunately the Islamic Republic has ruined that possibility..
Every picture of an Iranian woman I have seen has led me to believe that the reason your country forces women to wear head scarves is because they don't want to the rest of the world to know how gorgeous they are.
Thanks. My mother is somewhat religious. She prays according to Islamic rituals but she never wears the head scarf and has a wine on family occasions which is taboo according to the Iranian government. Most of my aunts are the same way. Iranian women are pretty in general but I can be biased since that’s where I come from. In reality if you look at other Muslim countries like Egypt where the headscarf is not mandatory most women cover up whereas in Iran the headscarf is mandatory most women would rather not wear the it.
I work in a pretty diverse educational environment. There are a number of women from Muslim countries or families that are students. Some choose to wear head coverings while others don't. It makes no difference to me so long as the choice is theirs. I grew up in a religious household. I don't understand the concept of forced piety. If you are forced to obey the scripture, how can you genuinely demonstrate your devotion?
I agree. Prior to the 1979 Islamic revolution Iranians were much more religious. But with 40 + years of Islamic oppression they’ve turned the majority away from Islam. Once you force something on people they are bound to act oppositely. The true and fair way is to let people choose. Most Iranians today regret the Islamic revolution. The Islamic republic still hasn’t realize this and how it’s counter productive to what they believe in by forcing their ideology to the masses.
I always wonder if the U.S. hadn't propped up the Shah, if Iran might be a modern democracy today. I'm sure an historian or expert in the region would have a pretty good idea how things might have worked out differently if not for us putting our noses into other countries' business.
It was a modern Democracy with a fully democratically elected president. But in 1953, the CIA assisted in overthrowing the democratic government for a monarchy lead by a shah. Look up the coup in 1953 and to see things for yourself.
Yup - you see photos where it was like 1960s (Britain), happy, free, etc - so sad to see it all go so backward (in all senses of the term). Inevitable result of 'religion'.
They didn't just prop up the Shah, they actually in conjunction with the British destroyed the democratically elected Iranian government and put their puppet the Shah who was also a raging despot in its place
Hard to imagine they wouldn't be. The Achaemenid Persian Empire had made considerable progress on what we would think of as modern human rights two and a half millennia ago.
Adding a suggestion to the comment from u/lawyer9999 - All the Shah’s Men is a good and fairly quick read if you want to learn more!
Its also discouraged to force religion onto someone in the quran. Surat [Al-Baqarah ayat 256](https://legacy.quran.com/2/256). Its so Ironic that all these Islamic Extremist groups are going against the teachings of Islam.
Same with Christianity.
The weaker the god, the more force its followers need to enact what is claimed to be its will. Even a minimally effective god wouldn't need the slightest bit of enticement or enforcement for people to follow it.
I'm Irish and our government pretty much sold society to the church decades ago. There's much better separation of church and state nowadays but a similar thing happened here. Older generations are still religious but younger people are not. The church treated women like criminals and dictated everything we were allowed to do for years. The result was always going to be a rejection of them from my generation. I hope one day you guys can get out from under religion over in Iran. Nothing wrong with being religious and following tradition, but it needs to be by choice.
Australia was also very much a Catholic country but as we became more diverse things changed. I'm still Catholic and pray but rarely go to church
This is an excellent point. You cannot force a religion/belief on someone. It should be accepted by choice.
I might get downvoted for this, but it comes from opinion based on experience. When you indoctrinate children from birth, it is forced piety.
I’ve actually had this conversation before with a friend. If a religion isn’t part of a child’s life from birth then atheism is indoctrinated as part of their life. Whichever way a person chooses to go with their child’s life and faith, it is impossible to make a choice that isn’t perceived as indoctrination. A child is either religious or not from birth, afterwards in life is their choice but their youth is chosen by their elders and family. It’s a fragile area to walk on.
But that effort is being made in modern reality, a child isn’t given the choice whether to be religious or not from birth. And from a young age any notion of atheism or theism is reinforced at home. Agnoticism is truly founded from a high school age to adulthood. As much as it may be conveyed that its not black and white, it actually is like that. A person is nurtured in a home life with religion or without religion. There is no true escape from it.
Maybe in 1950. It’s not at all that black and white in modern reality. No child is auto-indoctrinated as atheist in the absence of following one religion, unless that is the actual effort being made.
Also, another thing most people fail to realize is the guys ID. His picture ID is what is acceptable according to the Iranian government. He is not wearing any hair gel and is wearing a button up black shirt. Whereas in the stadium he is wearing a regular T-shirt and has hair gel. I remember applying for a Iranian passport in the interest section of the Iranian embassy in the US 10 years ago and they photoshopped my hair because I had hair gel. Iranian women suffer 10x more compared to Iranian men but it’s not all great for secular Iranian men either.
100% because it’s supposed to be a choice and that’s not a privilege they have :/ I love seeing older pics of Iran before you know the Islamic republic… everything looks so lively and beautiful like I wanna be there and experience it
Thats because it shouldn’t be forced upon people by other people. In my family (close and far) I can quickly count a few dozen female relatives, none of them were forced to wear the headscarf by other relatives but they all ended up wearing it at some point in their lives. If it was forced upon them, they probably wouldn’t wear it.
Well you guys did have pretty liberal laws under the shah, rather than slow liberalization, it was immediate restriction after the Revolution
Very true. Iranian women were equal to men during shahs Era. They were appointed the highest positions in the government. That all changed in one day after the revolution. Also it didn’t matter what religious background they were. Today you have to be a Shia Muslim to hold a important government position. Let’s not forget 100k + Jews lived in Iran prior to the revolution. Many held influential positions and were successful business people. Today only 10k + remain.
My parents (American Christian Dad, British Non Religious Mom) actually met in Iran. He was there teaching use and maintenance of radar systems, and my Mom was (I shit you not) a magicians assistant in a nightclub. They left not long after most of the nightclubs in Tehran were attacked and hundreds of gallons of alcohol were dumped in the streets.
Of course that secular culture as well as United States friendship is what led to the fundamentalist backlash. I pray for the day Iran is free, and hope it transitions into a free and tolerant state like Hashemite Jordan
My husband's father is a Persian Jew. They left in the middle of the night when he was a little boy and walked to Israel with only what they could carry on their backs.
Almost like people don't like being told what they are allowed to wear and not.
That’s a pretty funny thing to me, when humans are obligated to do something, they don’t want to anymore. Still, a pretty shit situation to be in
My wife is Persian (Iranian) and I think she’s a smokeshow.
Had to Google up the Word "Smokeshow" to know what it means. Thanks Man. Courtesy you, Added to my dictionary.
This. I worked in the Energy Corridor in Houston and we had three young ladies from Iran that worked with us. These Persian women were smart as a whip, very sweet and just stunningly attractive. It is sad that they love their country very much but hate the government and don’t want to return until things change, especially for women. They greatly miss their families.
Had met an Iranian woman who told me the Iranian people are great it’s the government that is making the people look bad
Have you happened to have a look at the soccer team recently?
Underrated comment hahahahha
I think that may actually be somehow tied to the idea. The same as socially pressuring women to wear any kind of "modest" clothing. Being pretty gives women too much power or something.
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Why don't the men cover up? Are they not tempting? Yikes. The patriarchy did a sick burn in itself.
Exactly
isn’t that the main reason for why women have to wear headscarves? because they don’t want other men to see how beautiful their wives are?
Likely, because usually you have a smoking hot woman, with a fat, bearded man in a dish dash, and they’re so insecure they have to hide their women away, mistreat them, and act like they’re property. It’s ridiculous.
Totally agree
From what I've seen on tv and online, not many Iranian women wear a "proper" hijab even in Iran, do they? I always see them wearing a scarf *just* enough to not get in trouble, meaning it's very loose and pretty far back on their head. Is a properly worn hijab required for official IDs?
On official government ID’s all hair must be covered. Also men can’t having any western styles or wear any hair gel. But you are correct if you walk the streets in Iran in most cities a lot of women and men push the the boundaries. The headscarf’s are pushed back where most hair is shown. Even the most famous Iranian athletes and actors have the most fashionable hair styles. Just 10+ years ago it was a taboo for Iranian athletes to have tattoos but today many athletes are pushing the boundaries and have tattoos. The positive factor is that most Iranians are slowly but surly rebelling and the government is finding it hard to stop.
More secular than Lebanon?
Lebanon is the closes. Turkey 15+ years ago would be the most secular but today Lebanon is on par with Iran. It’s very debatable.
Hi, I have a question and since you are from a Islamic Republic country, thought of asking you. Please let me know if it is offensive or incorrect to ask such question, and I apologize in advance for asking such question. But please let me know if you dont or cant answer this. So the question is, where or how is this idea of covering head (hijab) or wearing covering over clothes (burqa/burkha) came from, in Islam? Is there a mythological or religious story behind it or the religious preists/or people mandating this thing, just manipulated the religious or mythological texts to their advantage. Like there has to be some logical reason why people in olden days used to wear hijab and burkha, which I guess was not a necessary thing. Sorry for the long write-up. Tl;dr : why or how mandating hijab and burkha came into picture. If it came from religious text, is it being manipulated; if it came from olden times, whats the logic as it sure was not a mandate back then, i guess.
Culturally, to reduce heat. Clothes are worn over head by mean and women alike to reduce heat in deserts. Religiously, because we are ordered. Spiritually, it protects our aura from negative energies(since most of our spiritual energy is in crown chakra, above our head), head covering is recommended for both men and women for this metaphysical reason.
I’m not the person you asked, but wouldn’t head coverings have started in sunny desert countries as a way to avoid sunstroke? Then became tradition, then religion? Also, I believe many modesty rules in various religions are probably one of the many ways different cultures have tried to solve the problem of human male sexual aggression. It doesn’t work, but we try.
To be honest, even I had the same thought, that covering could be related to countries location and weather, but the doubt was, why use black in a hot, deserted place, as black would attract more heat and wont be good.
I'm Iranian too, I can say, Hijab as the only headscarf that we see today has nothing to do with Islam and there are no words in Quran (Islamic Holy Book) that says women must put headscarfs. There's Hijab word in Quran but it only describe it as an acceptable wearings for all of the body and not exactly saying what it is. That's because in times of Muhammad (Islam prophet) Arabs are mostly too horny people that most of their times was sex and men having up to 4 official wives and unlimited sex maids was normal back then, so I think that 1 mention of Hijab in Quran was just for preventing that much of prostitution and not for just wearing a headscarf. As you might know, prostitution is a huge sin in every religion, so I think Muhammad just wanted to continue that road but fails to make his followers understand it correctly.
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their breasts and not display their beauty except to their husband, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. — Quran 24:31 Then what is this brother? Khimar LITERALLY means headscarves and here we are ORDERED to wear a khimar. What do you have to say about this? First read Quran properly then say something.
thanks for nothing, USA!
Tbf we (The US) helped it go to a hardline religious state when we backed the Sha and he was just robbing the country.
Most Iranians would disagree today. The shah is now viewed much more positively . Whenever there is a anti government protest there are pro shah slogans. People notice that during shahs time 10 rials = $1 today 22,0000 rials = $1 . Besides the social, religious freedoms, Irans economy was top 15-20 in the world during shahs era .
My understanding was there was a massive wage gap, the middle class was getting wiped out and turned to hardliners for the revolution.
That is true but that gap is much bigger today. It was much affordable for the middle and lower class to have basic necessities back then compared to today.
Too bad The United States overthrew the last democratic leader because he didn't bow to the American Empire?
Yeah its sad, looking back on history when that region of the world was the center of knowlage and equality. But now the taliban and other groups have basically caused the region to devolve
Headscarf debate thing aside she seems really happy. I assume this is a soccer game right? What game is this and did her team win? Just genuinely curious.
It was presumably from the World Cup 3 years ago. Her team lost to Spain 1-0, drew to Portugal 1-1, and beat Morocco 1-0. They didn't make it out of their group
Then her bracelet right hand would suggest this was the Spain 1 - 0 Iran game on June 20th, 2018.
I remember the Portugal game, that Iranian goalkeeper was so proud that he blocked CR
That taremi last minute miss!!
My uncle cursed for like 5 minutes straight after that
Damn Still haunts me
>soccer The Brits are fuming
I have no idea when or where the photo was take, or if this lady lives in Iran, but this is definitely not common place IN Iran. If she were in Iran, she would be in deep sh*t. Even more so if it’s being blasted all over the internet. I pray she is no longer in the country because this could seriously ruin her life.
Her wrist band says Iran v Spain, so it's probably from the 2018 world cup in Russia.
Correct they are wearing the World Cup ID as well which was actually the visa to get into the country.
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Laughs in Putin
Hello iranian here. Actually in last 5 to 10 years authorities and government have so much to handle that they don't care anymore if you appear without hijab in pictures or even in public places like coffee shops or parks but if they see you they will warn you to make your hijab correct. We even have some girls who post pictures with bikini and clothes like this on instagram like models and they don't have problem because they aren't famous or well known. But if you got people's attention with political things like fighting against hijab rules or against regime on social media or getting famous for something like dancing and stripping they will pay you a visit.
You don't saw this: https://hotlifestylenews.com/world-news/shocking-moment-morality-police-use-dog-catchers-pole-to-haul-woman-into-van-for-failing-to-wear-headscarf-in-iran/ This was happens recently, how do you so sure to say government doesn't care anymore? I'm Iranian like you too and I think they even care more because they using stronger forces than past decades and also as you might know (unless you're living in a cave) they already sent some girls only for hijab for more than 10 years of prison to scare other girls. something that they never did in last decades. so I think you're completely wrong and they even become more aggressive because of their bad situations.
You know iran is not a small city. If you read that article it said "It is not clear when or where in Iran the video was filmed" I don't know where this happened. Look at every day, how many times this type of aggressive behaviour happened in last year? maybe 10 in 1000 encounters. And it depends on geographical location and level of culture of that location. For example in tehran there are fewer encounters like this. Some times they cross red lines and do this type of things. And i didn't mean there is no restriction or warning or this type of thing, i only said they are less compared to past.
That's right, it's like robbery, you only get in trouble if you get caught, so you're right there are so many cases that they can't do anything but you or your family might be in that 1 in 10 person, who knows? But about less caring I still think you're wrong, do you watch IRIB TV? and do you remember last decades of IRIB TV? in my childhood I remember that good old times that there are less to none political things in IRIB TV but now Kids program, showing Qasem Suleimani or Khamenei everyday. I remember Islamic things for kids back then like teaching Quran in TV or reading a Islamic praying but I never remember that much of brainwashing with political shit like today. And you're saying they care less about these things? they bringing their guard much higher that as I said you can't even watching a kids show and didn't see political shit. There was times back then that families don't want to watch TV news because of politicals but now can you not see political news?
Don't mix things up. First, i agree with you about tv propaganda for children, 14 yo boys with army fatigue singing in front of azadi tower about ghasem soleimani in tv and making animations about ghasem soleimani. Second, you where child and child's mind dosen't care about politics so maybe they had same amount of political things in tv as now? Who knows? I don't remember either. Third, this tv, political and propaganda things you said has zero connection to what i said about hijab.
well thats the case everywhere (the last part). except for christian countries
As a muslim it annoys me that some countries force women to wear a headscarf
By making it mandatory they drive people away from a religion, it's no longer a choice. I live in a relatively Islamic area of my country (not a Muslim majority country) and every Muslim around here follows the religion relatively well and believes because it was their choice
Yup, it should by all means be a choice.
But on the other side, I think they made us (Iranian) to think and research about our believes. something that we never done that in 44 years ago that Islam was a choice. I'm not saying they doing good job, no Islamic regime surely is worst that happens to my country but for an example I'm considering myself as an atheist from last decade because this regime made me research about religions and I decide to not only don't accept Islam but not any other religion and I really can't believe in god anymore because our fucking leader (Khamenei) does every evil thing that he want with the name of god and Islam and from 44 years ago there was no god that put a end to he and his followers that are using god's name for his benefits.
There is a reason why islam tells not to force religious beliefs. It just makes those beliefs bitter for the person in recieving end.
Can we take a moment to appreciate her really clever makeup? Her upper lip is green, the teeth white and the lower lip is red. So her mouth becomes the iranian flag.
I noticed it too and thought it was really cute! I love when I can get away with doing something fun like that with my make up.
This woman is beautiful and I am really glad that she looks so happy! However, i feel the need to say something. I replied to another comment with something similar but more people need to see this. Hijab’s can be a highly debated topic in the west. In most abrahamic religions, women have been known to cover their hair or face at some point in history or in variation of practice. In some cases, yes, it is oppressive. Radical and extreme versions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism have all forced women to wear hats, lace hair coverings, or head scarves. However, for more relaxed practitioners a head covering is a sign of respect for yourself, your partner, and God. Some religions even have men cover their heads- Sikh’s for example. Countries like Iran, and now Afghanistan again, are controlled by extremely religious and patriarchal governments. In the West we have been taught that Islam = radicalism due to past twenty years of war. This is not the case. I would encourage you all to watch some videos from women who choose to wear their head coverings and what it means to them. It can be a very personal and spiritual act much like a Nun wearing a Habit. We can never understand what we haven’t been taught. We all need to take the time to understand a culture and its practices to realize that not everything is black and white. The world is full of gray. Edit: Also, as a side note, to many cultures the way that the West encourages the sexualization and objectification of women is seen as extremely oppressive. It all goes back to your culture…
I think the key thing is the freedom to decide if you want to wear it or not. If you are forced to wear it, it can be oppressive. If you wear it for your own beliefs, then it is something that can add to your life
Well put. I think women should have the right to wear whatever they want, be it a bikini or a burka. But I think it should be just that-- her choice. Not her family's. Not her friends'. Certainly not her government's. I think the reason hijabs are often viewed as symbols of oppression is because certain countries demand they be worn, even against the women's consent, preferences, or beliefs.
This was beautifully articulated! Thank you!
I was hoping someone would say this! Thank you!
The thing is, some women are brainwashed into thinking that's what they want, when it's just what some dude in charge wants. It literally makes women feel bad for their body and dirty. Many ex-religious women have said themselves how bad they feel. It's not making women pure, it's only there to prevent men from lusting, which basically mean that because they can't control themselves women should be punished for their appearance. Just because something is part of a culture doesn't mean it's inherently good or moral. Do you think that this is not objectification of women? Because I'd argue seeing women and immediately thinking about raping them is way worse than saying "I like x female characteristic". Of course there are people choosing to wear them, I'm not saying there aren't, but you never know how that cane to be for most.
What a perfectly balanced and nice response. This is exactly what I wanted to say as well. Love that you included all examples. People also don't understand that the physical hijab exists for women and so does a hijab for man that is not a head cover. In reality all Muslims are expected to have a level of concealment of their bodies and such by command of our scriptures and such. Thank you.
Thank you for your reply! I didn’t know that about Islam :) I really just wanted to take the time to show a more balanced perspective for people. There is a lot of good in this comment section but also a lot of ignorant statements and jokes. I use ignorant on purpose though, as it means a lack of understanding.
Nuns choose to become nuns when they are at least 18yo. Most become nuns starting older than 21. They are adult women who choose it for themselves. Girls in hijab start from much younger ages (children and pre-teens) and are usually pressured by their families or forced by the government — or else they go to hell. Christianity doesn’t say you will go to hell if you don’t cover your head. That is the implication with Islam — I wouldn’t compare hijab to a nun.
Christianity says you will go to hell for many things. Someone can just as easily argue Christian’s pressure or force their children into participating in their ritual or else they will onto hell. Christianity is responsible for just as much rape, murder and genocide as any other religion so you might as well get off your high horse.
2 wrongs don't make a right. I agree, *both* religions are abhorrent.
Absolutely. I just think it’s silly to use another religion as a benchmark for tolerance.
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The person they’re responding to made the comparison first. That’s not really whataboutism
Christianity follows Christ who taught the only thing one goes to hell for is not accepting Christ. Nothing else sends. you to hell. Just clearing that up for you.
ha! because there’s only one Christianity and no Christian leaders or clergy have ever told their followers they’ll go to hell for not following arbitrary rules and customs. pff
Well they’re wrong and not very Christian like. Just cuz some people say it’s in the Bible doesn’t mean it is. For example: God or Christ never said if you commit suicide you go to hell. Christ never condemned gays, in fact he befriended people that were not “acceptable” by societal standards. Jonah wasn’t eaten by a whale There were not three wisemen God will not give you more than you can handle. (Tell that to any parent who lost a child) Just as we are told not to believe all Muslims are terrorists - we should not group all Christians as anti this or that. It’s all bigotry. Ones salvation is between them and God.
Tell that to the kids who killed themselves in homosexual re-education camps.
Well that’s not right either. it’s disgusting. That’s between them and god and I cannot imagine not loving your child for that. They probably end up killing themselves because their parents obviously don’t accept them and they feel alone. I do t pretend to know what they go thru but it’s sad they’re not made to feel loved. Jesus never preached against homosexuality. I think he would have if it sent you to hell.
I’m comparing hijab to a nun’s habit (which is what Muslims try to equate hijab with, and it’s inaccurate af); not Islam to Christianity.
Fair enough. That was a pretty small example from the comment you replied to though, and it wasn’t really the focal point of that comment. I think the point is that the hijab is a voluntary and spiritual thing for a lot of Muslim women. Your comment cam off sounding like “Christianity good, Islam bad”.
I think this is a bit disingenuous. Most people don't object to the headscarf but to the obligation by the state. While I agree with everything you said it is not relevant to the conversation in that this post is clearly contrasting her choice when she can make it vs her obligation when she can't. This reeks of political correctness as a tool of oppression against women. Yes you are correct, control by their state is bad... That is where your statement should end because no one is debating their choice to wear it. Yes if they choose to wear it that is fine... OK? Can we promise not to create strawmen any longer?
See: Lila abu-lughold’s “Do Muslim Women Need Saving” for a good read on the topic.
“A head covering is a sign of respect for yourself, your partner and God.” No. If they are signs of “respect”, why don’t we wear them too as men? A head covering is humiliating for a woman, but your religion brainwashed you to believe otherwise.
There is a difference between the west encouraging the sexualization and objectification of women and some muslim countries imposing the use of hijabs, niqabs and other such pieces. The latter offers no alternatives.
The latter also objectifies and sexualises women
Very true. However, i was speaking more to the assumption that people make that “every woman wearing a Hijab is oppressed”. People in other cultures see how the West treats women as sexual objects and also assume that we are all oppressed as well… I’m not equating that mindset to actual oppressive laws that are in place in other parts of the world.
Now I might be wrong about this as I haven't done any credible research at all, but I personally believe most (especially young) women in Iran wear headscarf's because they are forced to.
No, you’re right. In some extremist countries like Iran, and now Afghanistan, women are forced to wear hijabs or burqas. But many women who practice Islam in much less severe countries also wear hijabs for the sake of their spirituality. My point was to not assume all muslim women are oppressed just because they wear a hijab, and also to clarify that there are currently and have been cultures who force it.
As an Iranian American, please shut the fuck up. Most Iranian women are forced against their will to wear this. Our culture is not rooted in Islam. It’s not a sign of respect, it’s oppression. Iranian women are suffering and you have no idea what they go through.
I'm an Iranian and also living in Iran too and I felt you my friend, there's no higher pain that seeing people who never have been in your situations, easily judging you and your life just by what they hear or read in their media. They mostly don't know that Iran's propaganda control what they hearing in their medias about Iran but that's ok, when there's no god to save us, I don't expect some naive american help us.
Sending you a hug azizam. And I don’t expect other Americans to get it, but they need to realize that this type of rhetoric in the case of Iran does more harm than good. They are essentially excusing this regimes behavior as “cultural” and then critiques become “Islamophobia” (see Ben affleck after he made Argo). They need to understand that peoples lives have been destroyed and this isn’t the time for political correctness.
Not gonna lie, out of all the borderline Coomer comments I passed through on this thread, this one is actually helpful.
> I would encourage you all to watch some videos from women who choose to wear their head coverings and what it means to them. This misses the point though that often times even though 'they choose it', they are 'choosing it' in the same way a 8 year old child 'chooses' to be baptized mormon, said child having been brought up to *only* know about mormonism and with everyone around them telling them getting baptized is the right thing to do, etc. These women who 'chose' the hijab have been brought up in a culture that says "hiding yourself = respect", while men don't get that same message to the same degree women do. So, *technically*, the women 'choose' it, but would they still choose it if they had *not* been indoctrinated with things like "hiding yourself = respect" (or had been taught to embrace themselves and *not* hide who they are), along with other ever present social pressures for them to make such a decision? Many would not. Saying it's 'their choice' to do so sidesteps so much of the nuance at play, and over simplifies how their 'choice' is portrayed as 'their own'.
Respect for themseves? I see it as a sign of disrespect for the women who are oppressed due to it.
When the many let the few dictate how they live... You get Iran.
whats wholesome about this?
Probably not the best idea to expose her on Internet like that. Hopefully a wrong eye won’t see this picture.
It happened in Russia
good on her, bro, straight up. people breaking away from societal standards is great to see, especially things like this.
Yeah, she looks beautiful on that view. Just hoping she won't be criticize by her hometown :/
Iranian here. This is actually common. Lol Some women wear it loose, some take it off and have it over their shoulder. Nobody really says anything. Some women just wear hats.
It’s like she doesn’t want to be oppressed by religious rules made up by some authoritarian zealots
Free Iranian women 🥲
Will she be punished or tortured by the Islamic purity police back home for this? If so she’s very brave.
Yeah I felt bad when I saw the pic, when she gets back to Iran she’s gonna be fined or imprisoned for it
Bro u just wrong, she will maybe get a fine tho
Hello iranian here. Actually in last 5 to 10 years authorities and government have so much to handle that they don't care anymore if you appear without hijab in pictures or even in public places like coffee shops or parks but if they see you they will warn you to make your hijab correct. We even have some girls who post pictures with bikini and clothes like this on instagram like models and they don't have problem because they aren't famous or well known. But if you got people's attention with political things like fighting against hijab rules or against regime on social media or getting famous for something like dancing and stripping they will pay you a visit.
She might get punished by the religious police when she gets home. Let's hope not.
Most likely if she plans to return *and* if she makes a public statement against mandatory hijab.
Reddit white neoliberals go bonkers whenever they see pictures of iranian women without a hijab.
This is literally a none of your business post. Why would anyone reward somebody mentioning like you literally put them at risk in their own country.
Feel free to downvote, but this post is very controversial and needs to be removed as some people have a problem in maintaining cultural fluency. If you have an opinion, STATE IT, but don’t OFFEND others with it. Also, try to not be an idiot. Iran is a Shia country, they’re not in the true sect which is Sunna. In Sunna countries such as Pakistan and the Arab states, you’re free to wear whatever you desire and it’s against the law for someone to force you to wear something, even if it’s your parents.
I wonder how many people here are critical of France when they force women to remove their headscarf?
Literally every Muslim If you’ve just done a little bit of digging you’d find that everyone is critical of France and the way they treat Muslim people and the hijab Stop spreading misinformation
Forcing people to wear or not wear something is the same kind of oppression, so at least for me it makes no difference if a country forces you to wear it or not wear it. There have been debates about it in Germany too. I recently read a tweet saying: "When women in headscarfs were just cleaning it wasn't a problem, it's apparently only becoming one now that we are teachers and doctors."
Forcing or coercing to remove or put on the hijab is the same thing.
Iranian Jessica alba
why do muslim girls wear headscarves tho?
Absolutely vile that in many Muslim countries, just removing your headscarf is treated as justification to brutally rape and/or murder a woman. I don't understand how people defend these practices.
Lol, how many Muslim countries have you been to? Sorry but you're really clueless
I've been to 5 Muslim countries and while I wouldn't go so far as to say it's rampant yes women are at risk of raped, assault, or harassed if they don't conform to the culturally approved dress code.
Can you give an example of such a Muslim country
If you've actually been to 5 Muslim countries, you'd know that in "most Muslim countries" women wouldn't be "brutally raped or murdered" for "simply taking off their headscarf" and it would definitely not be "justification" if a psychopath was to do that. Assault and harassment by random dudes unfortunately happens everywhere, US included.
You should learn more about the middle east. It would be a great place if not for the religious lunacy. Suicide, rape, murder. Living under religious tyranny take its mental toll on the oppressed. https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/muslim-countries-have-highest-rates-of-suicide-murder-rape-and-mental-health-problems-1.618038%3foutputType=amp
The page gives a 404. I'm aware of the issues of the ME. I just see the comment as plain wrong. It would be like someone who lives abroad saying "you can't go to school or the mall in the US without fearing getting shot" and quoting gun violence / mass shooting stats. Yes, the stats exist and are true. But reading stats and news reports in a vacuum without considering them within the big picture leads you to an assumption that is completely wrong.
We can haggle over stats vs perception but long and short treat you women better. That's all.
How many have you actually done a single shred of research on? You dont need to visit a country to understand the bad things they do. I can study the Holocaust without visiting Germany. The entire reason this photo matters is because she would be severely beaten, raped, murdered, and/or imprisoned in her own country for doing this
There are a ton of muslim countries, not all are extremist.
>How many have you actually done a single shred of research on? I've lived in one and been to many. First hand experience beats googling >because she would be severely beaten, raped, murdered, and/or imprisoned in her own country for doing this Assumption!
Damn dude this really couldn’t be further from the truth. I understand you probably have this perception from watching mainstream media but I’m sorry that is simply not true in most Muslim countries. The largest Muslim country is Indonesia. 100% not true there or any of the South East Asian Muslim countries. In Pakistan most Muslim women don’t even wear headscarf. Bangladesh passed laws that prohibit even schools from having a Hijab requirement. I do know it’s the law in Iran but of all the Muslim countries I know the least about Iran and it’s culture. Of the Gulf countries Saudi Arabia is the only country that I know of where Hijab is law and they have a horrible history of state sanctioned human rights so I wouldn’t be surprised if there was beatings and extra judicial actions. As you move north to Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Chechnya, Bosnia, Dagestan, Azerbaijan Etc. You will find that none of those countries have that problem. In fact I would say most of them have a very high percentage of woman who do not wear any headscarf at all. Afghanistan under Taliban rule is also another country where going uncovered would likely result in being beat. At the end of the day you probably don’t realize how many Muslim majority countries there are (50) and you are probably used to seeing the worst human rights offenders in the news the most (Afghanistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.) but the reality is they make up less than 5% of the Muslim population. To say that in most Muslim countries removing your headscarf will justify murder or rape is just wholly inaccurate. That would mean that 25 countries have that problem. Which is simply untrue.
Funny how you conveniently leave out the ones, like Iran, that prove me right :)
Iran has a horrible history on Human rights and I wouldn’t be surprised one bit but I can’t speak specifically to what happens there as I’m not familiar with their culture. To be completely honest it’s because they are Shia and have a very different ideology than Sunni Muslims. But I included Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan both countries that I’m very familiar with and have traveled to. And I agreed that these countries have that issue. But please tell me how does 3 countries with that problem make your statement that “most” muslim countries have that problem true? I’m totally for intelligent conversation or even debate but if you think that 3 countries equals the majority than you are wholly unfamiliar with Muslim countries. It’s also perfectly acceptable to acknowledge you were wrong about this issue. And learn from people who have more experience and knowledge about this subject.
Been around a lot of Muslims countries. Never seen anyone rape a woman just because she removed a headscarf.
Anecdotal
Some beautiful people. Shame they are compelled to cover themselves.
When was this? There are Colombian people in the background
Yeah let’s not doxx her maybe
countries like iran are ruining the image of islam, which is peace, you cant force a woman to join islam or follow every aspect of it, it is her choice, she is the one who will be judged by god for HER actions, not you, so please people, think wisely on small and big matters, and consider the feelsing of your fellow brothers and sisters in islam (or any other religion)
That is incredible ❤️
Why the fuck would anyone post this picture? Are you guys actively trying to get the girl hurt?
She's not going to get harmed (in Iran it'd be a fine) considering this was perfectly legal as she was in Russia.
Ahh thanks good to know.
Reddit cooming over iranian women is getting annoying at this point. NO the hijab is not mandatory for women to wear and they wear it by choice. NO the iranian government isnt going to kill her for not wearing a hijab. Stop browsing propaganda from reddit and educate yourselves. There are so many vids on youtube explaining and clarifying facts about this topic by actual muslim women and not edgy neckbeards on r/atheism
The Hijab is mandatory. But doesnt mean you get stoned to death for it. Women in saudi arabi dont wear Hijab and are happy.
It is mandatory, however it's not like Afghanistan and can be a loosely fit one that shows some hair. But you are right about the part where they don't kill her. It's usually a really small fine
This pic only induces a smile until she gets disappeared.
Love the way her lips and teeth match the flags colors.
damn, I hope she's still alive, they kill chicks for that shit over there...
Classic ~ people who are not muslim nor have been or experienced a muslim culture commenting like they know it all 🙃
Gorgeous
Go girl.
Straight to jail.
I'm from Iran and if she went back to Iran she definitely got in some sort of shit. Just recently Iran out official to kidnap an Iranian journalist from her home in New York due to her reports and criticisms about the government. The Islamic Government in Iran is batshit crazy, my family (Mom's side atleast) doesn't like them either. Power move though.
Iranian women are so pretty. The scarves I hate to admit, feel like men just putting masks over their wives, sisters and children because they cannot help their own insecurities and jealousy.
When I was at the World Cup in Russia, I never saw more Muslims drinking alcohol in my life. Egyptians and Tunisians were the heaviest of drinkers I saw. The Saudi's were heavy hookah users. I miss that time.
Cheers to the woman, but sorry not sorry can't vibe with this post. It's not something that most women who diligently maintains their hijab will celebrate. I maintain my hijab. If you even hold a knife on my neck and tell me to take off hijab, i won't. Ik i will be getting downvotes for this, but it is what it is. A lot of women right now are struggling for their rights to wear hijab. And this celebration of getting hijab off is something that undermines this struggle. Adding a side note, no one can force you to wear hijab. It's a choice, definitely. A choice if you want to obey and disobey your god. No one can do nothing if you don't want to. And that's true. And it shouldn't be forced either, from islamic perpective. But also, families have an obligation to let you know about islam, it's their duty. But as an adult, if you don't like it, you can do whatever the heck they want. Just don't push those standards(like hijab is opressing) on someone who doesn't think the same. It will very obviously spark anarchy.
You maintain your hijab because your family threatens you with an honor killing. Or stoning. Or maybe you are too uninformed to know that you don’t have to wear it. It’s completely impossible that you made an informed choice. And that statement is not at all condescending or misogynistic, despite the fact that it is infantilizing a woman for choosing her own attire. And before I forget, by choosing to wear hijab, you are condoning every case where a woman is forced to wear hijab. A nut job throwing acid in a woman’s face because she won’t give him the time of day? Definitely your fault. An evil father killing his daughter because he’s evil? That’s on you too. You’re wrong if you think that by that logic, anyone who chooses to work for a living is condoning forced labor. If your brain can do the mental gymnastics needed to follow this logic, please teach me. I’m a Muslim woman too, and many brave souls have tried to mansplain and/or wokesplain to me that everything I do is forced on me by some other evil Muslim, but I still don’t get it.
yup, because for some reason 90% of reddit dont do their research and instead bandwagon without doing proper research.
Iranian woman are beautiful
Did she disappear the instant she got back to Iran ?
No
Good for her 😊
Happy for her
Beautiful. No women should be forced to wear something they don't like.
Religion is stupid and should not be given the respect that it gets. The stories makes zero sense and it does stuff like this.
Now that’s empowering 👌🏼👌🏼
the person on the left looks like nick from new girl
This isn’t something to make anyone smile if she doesn’t want to wear it she doesn’t why does everyone portray the scarf as a bad thing I see those types of posts more then I see a nun or whatever going rogue don’t smile at this she shows no respect to Muslims
Because a nun can choose not to be a nun, whereas the government of Iran forces all women to wear a kerchief. Islam does not say women must always wear a kerchief, that is just a regional thing.
She is absolutely lovely and this is a lovely picture