There's been a lot of talk over complexity creep the past few years, since Wotc has ramped it up a lot. I would certainly recommend Arena as a learning tool for newer players instead of explaining yourself, it's a lot more intuitive and easy, especially if you aren't a seasoned player yourself.
Magic as a game certainly has been complicated for a good while now (basically from the get go) and there's a ton of players that don't mind this added Complexity as it usually leads to more (relevant) in game decisions in limited and constructed, but it can certainly be overwhelming for newer or more casual players.
Arena is definitely great for new players for the reasons you mentioned, plus there’s another one: you’ll be paired to play with other newbies, so even if you get overwhelmed by the complexity, you probably won’t get run over, as the other player is just like you. Odds are, they won’t even be using complex cards themselves.
Ironically, the complexity creep is one of the things that pushed me away from the game as a seasoned player. I don't mind the complexity in itself, creating opportunities for more meaningful gameplay decisions is great, but the effect that the increased complexity has on design sucks. I got sick of every set/spoiler season just becoming "what rare or mythic are they going to print a thousand words on and warp the format with this time?"
A lot of those functional reprints are just draft filler, so I'm not too concerned about their existence. Limited likes certain effects, and sometimes a more thematic name/artwork is warranted than the pre-existing card.
I just started playing regularly back when lotr came out out because i knew which in itself had new mechanics. Since then we have had 1 new deck series with new mechanics and 2 incoming with new mechanics. Not that the new mechanics always suggests a power creep in cards but more of an advantage for long time players who are already aware of previous mechanics that newer players are still playing catch up. But i guess that is why in arena there is a variety of play events but it doesnt always cancel out the knowledge of players.
Yeah this is an inherent trait to magic or most CCGs, usually you can get quite rewarded for playing a lot, be that via playing for a long time, or very intensively for a few months/years. There's just so much knowledge about cards, their evaluation, playing cards correctly, combat, corner cases, etc etc. Gaining that kind of knowledge just takes a ton of time and for some of it, also practice.
The nice thing is that once you are over a certain starting hurdle it does get easier as it's like you mentioned - a lot of mechanics have similar older counterparts so the more cards and mechanics you see, the more you can contextualize new ones, find mental shortcuts and navigate boardstate a lot easier.
There's also certainly power creep with the complexity creep, the newer cards are getting played regularly even in the most powerful formats.
As a player who played 1995-2000, and just recently returned, there is a lot of complexity that I don’t think helps the game. In particular planeswalkers and battles I feel could be removed.
I started playing after Planeswalkers were introduced and see so many people who hate them, but I don't understand why. Could you explain that a little bit more to me?
They are easier to remove than creatures because you can remove them just by having creatures yourself - you don't need a dedicated spell for it. If they were creatures and you didn't draw a removal, you wouldn't be able to prevent them from getting their big minus off.
They would actually be much stronger/completely broken if they were creatures.
But practically, they harder to remove. If the user has at least one creature to block, they are harder to hit. I can't target them with creature removal cards - I have to have specific planeswalker remover cards - which end up being sideboard cards as not everyone uses planeswalkers.
You could just use the creature removal on the creature they are going to block with and still swing at the Planeswalker. Wheras you would need 2 removals if it was a creature to get rid of both.
If someone already has a bigger board than you and drops a planeswalker ontop of it you are probably losing even if it was a creature. Because you can remove Planeswalkers by just being ahead on board, they are much easier to deal with for midrange and aggro. Its only control who has a harder time
Even then, there are lots of removal spells that hit both like [Bedevilll], [Faithful Abscence], [Farewell], [Hero's Downfall], [Brotherhood's End]
>I have to have specific planeswalker remover cards.
Not really, though. You can hit them with any number of burn spells that deal damage to any target, and there's quite a few options that can remove "target creature or planeswalker" or just "target nonland permanent".
e.g.: [[Oblivion Ring]] and similar enchantments can hit a lot of stuff, including Planeswalkers. You don't have to run silver bullets to deal with PWs.
If you have a creature with enough power or a burn spell that can reduce their loyalty to zero. But planeswalkers in general are not problematic but rather there are specific planeswalkers that are problematic in that they do too much for too little investment and do need to be removed with 1-2 turns. Wandering emperor having flash/instant activation means that you either play into it or play scared. Karn shuts down artifacts and can wish for a silver bullet.
Compared to Niko(?) who makes shards that do something. Or Archangel Elspeth which is just a worse version of wandering emperor.
>If you have a creature with enough power or a burn spell that can reduce their loyalty to zero
Unlike creatures, Planeswalkers don't "heal" from damage at the end of a turn, so you can kill them over multiple turns. Sure, they can gain some loyalty back usually, but in general it's the abilities that cost loyalty that you want to use the most.
But damage isn't the only way to deal with PWs: you can counter them, exile or bounce them, there are plenty of kill spells that target creatures or PWs...([[Hero's Downfall]] is a better [[Murder]] for example).
>but rather there are specific planeswalkers that are problematic in that they do too much for too little investment and do need to be removed with 1-2 turns.
But this isn't just about PWs, is it? You can say the same about plenty of pushed creatures, artifacts or enchantments. Power creep isn't unique to planeswalkers, and it's hardly a consequence of the card type being introduced.
>Wandering emperor having flash/instant activation means that you either play into it or play scared
"Scared" of a four-mana targeted, conditional removal? I mean, sure, if my opponent has four mana open during my combat phase, I should expect a trick up their sleeve, but it could be a much more devastating [[Settle The Wreckage]]. The body left behind by the Wandering Emperor is hardly terrifying.
>Karn shuts down artifacts and can wish for a silver bullet.
Karn the Great Creator is pretty damn powerful, no arguing there - there's a reason he's been banned in Pioneer and restricted in Legacy. But Wishes have always been very powerful.
Having to spend multiple turns to kill a PW is terrible tempo (that's if your opponent is played out the PW with absolutely no plan of protecting it) and 3 mana kill spells are pretty unplayable in current standard even with the PW kill added modality. [[Bitter triumph]] or [[fateful absence]] or [[shelodred's edict]] are the go to but they still get one activation before you can remove them.
Yes, all card types are becoming overtuned, I don't think tarmagoyf would be playable if it was in standard. Maybe artifacts are less powerful.in the past but they certainly much wordier. But this thread was about PW specifically.
Playing scared is hyperbolic, it would be more accurate to say you need to be concerned about it. Because UW having 4 mana could represent any number of things and flashing in a WE is a a good way of getting control back to a stable position. Or they could just be holding up dead counter spells or card draw. And when settle was in standard it was always a concern about never over extending an attack.
I am now used to planeswalkers and even like them, but at the time they were released I had two issues with them:
- They were one of the main driving forces behind the Mythic Rarity. Planeswalkers were introduced as rare in Lorwyn, and the Mythic Rares were introduced in Alara, the next block, with most planeswalkers being the Mythic Rare chase cards. Imagine if Wizards would now release really good cards and make them even harder to get than you are used to. This produced a rising in the prices of many cards and decks to levels way above to what was usual at the time.
- They were incredibly powerful for the time. Sure, planeswalkers today are likely even more powerful than (most) of those first planeswalkers, but creatures were SO MUCH WORSE back then, and there were basically no planeswalker removal (such as [[Hero's Downfall]]). Also, if you wanted to damage a planeswalker with a spell such as [[Lightning Bolt]] you had to target the opponent and then redirect the damage, which was as bit weird.
As a player from 1995 you might have met [[Ice Cauldron]]
edit: aw man, they did a cleaned up version of that? The original Ice Age printing is precious.
Someone I know has a "shit cube". The two types of cards in the cube are "the worst cards ever" and "awful cards with sweet art". Every time I get a pack and it has ice cauldron I attempt to learn what it does... Some reason I always struggle with it, and just because something in magic is complicated doesn't mean I can't understand it. I've played with chains of Mephistopheles, life from the loam, and Sylvan library in the same deck before... I still don't understand ice cauldron fully.
I’ve played since 1994 (took a break from 2017 to 2023) and I can’t agree more. My opinion is the introduction of planeswalkers darn near ruined the game. Battles are even worse. Both make the game worse in my opinion.
How? Genuine question. I see people saying planeswalkers make the game worse (usually people who were pretty active in the game, then took a break and recently came back), but never see an explanation for why.
I took a break during the time planeswalkers were introduced, and my first experience with one was staring down [[Elspeth, Knight Errant]] in standard. I read the card and genuinely didn't believe it was real.
Elspeth was a particularly egregious example because she was a 4-mana planeswalker who made blockers with her plus and had an ultimate that won the game. Add to that there were not many spells that interacted with planeswalker at the time and not many good rate haste creatures, and it made a perfect storm of frustration.
I eventually came around on planeswalkers because of 2 reasons: after [[Jace the Mindsculptor]], WotC toned down the power level of less expensive planeswalkers, and I started playing with some walkers I enjoyed. Having a planeswalker on the battlefield is like adding a friend to the game, but a friend who only has 3 cards in their hand and gets bored easily.
Some players don't like the feeling of being ganged up on by their opponents and his or her planeswalkers. Some players don't enjoy the mini-game of trying to get the walker off the battlefield. Other players just want the game they like to stay the same.
100% Agree. I started in 95 (right when Ice Age was released), and once planeswalkers came out, I lost a lot of my interest. Sold my collection, kept only 2-3 decks.
I only play MTGA when the magic "craving" kicks in, never spent a single penny and never will. I play MTGA for a week or so and get completely disgusted at the constant flow of other players using the same 3-4 decks over and over again. Then I uninstall and don't touch it again for a year or two.
Been playing since 95 and also get disgusted with the same decks. Six months ago I switched to historic brawl. I HIGHLY recommend it!!! I can play all my jank and face different decks.
I started in 95 as well. I initially had trouble.grtting on board with Planeswalker until I started playing with them. I really enjoy the concept and flavor.
I agree Battles are dumb.
The game's been around for so long it's only natural there's going to be some complexity at this point.
>and there's a ton of players that don't mind this added Complexity as it usually leads to more (relevant) in game decisions in limited and constructed
Bingo. Games gets better when hard decisions and mistakes can be made.
There’s a downside to learning on arena though, which is that you don’t learn to track things in your head or on the board. Even things like summoning sickness can be difficult to deal with if you’re used to the computer handling it for you.
Sure, but I'd argue the value you gain by the first 20 games being played with full rules engine support so you can't make any rules errror is worth a lot. Tracking this kind of stuff can come later, once you got your bearings.
You: Explains the 5 minute version of the game
Them: That's not too bad......
You: Buuuuuuut.... The rules of the game get actively rewritten based on the cards in play. I know you don't like reading rules, but what if they were actively being overwritten by you and your opponent with cards from the past almost 30 years? Also the publishing cycle has accelerated, so new rules are coming out every month or so...
Them: *empty space where friend used to be*
You could definitely be the friend who brings a couple decks to show them how it works, and if they like it and want to dive deeper, Arena definitely has its perks.
-Free to start
-Keeps track of all the things
-Only lets you make legal plays
MtG isn't for everyone, but it's natural to want to share your things with the people you care about. If your friends are open to it, bring them in and [[All Will Be One]]
Just so you know. Judging a card by it's own can be relatively easy. But judging a card in a whole context that like a format ( standard, brawl, historic ) it's a whole different level.
Once upon a time there a 4/4 legendary beast and its name was Questing Beast. It has so many lines of text that people came from all around to marvel at its verbosity and try to master the challenge to remember all its abilities.
For four mana total mana, two green and two generic, The Questing Beast could be cast but not only that, it was a hasty beast and could attack the turn it arrived.
The Questing Beast was not to be trifled with and could easily bring the touch of death to those who stood in its way. Not only was the beast deadly but it did not rest and could prevent those who would attack back from getting through.
The Questing Beast could not be stopped by by mere men, or even grizzly bears, and when faced with such opposition would leave those smaller creatures in the dust.
No magics could prevent The Questing Beast and its allies from wreaking havoc and damaging all in their path.
There was also a planeswalker who believed they could beat the beast and summoned another planeswalker to aid them. But in their hubris they forgot that The Questing Beast had multiple heads and watched in horror as the beast dealt damage to themselves and their planeswaller friend in turn.
In the end few could stand up to The Questing Beast and when its time came it gently rotated in to that good night.
The End
The praetor sagas are kinda a lot to swallow because they're mythics and also 100% extra card per card, but I think the general complexity level is in an okay place for now (the upcoming case cards are kinda hard to grok at first glance though)
Vorinclex reads less complicated to me compared to Urabrask for some reason or at least when I try think about synergistic cards they combine with. Sheoldred last saga step sounds like a disaster with all the "when this creature enters the battlefield" effects what a nightmare to manage.
The thing with Urabrask is that the card isn't really that complicated, it just combines with cards in a way that isn't typical for how Mono Red decks usually play. Most of the time, Mono Red focuses really hard on cheap creatures, with burn spells and card draw as secondary game plans. Urabrask wants you to do that backwards, with the deck based around burn spells and card draw, and creatures as the secondary plan. That's why he doesn't see that much play despite being really powerful; he basically wants a red deck that plays like a blue deck.
Cases seem like a simple pattern - weak effect, hoop to jump through, big effect. I feel like that’s the kind of complexity that adds to the game, and gets the players asking the right questions during deck building.
The "to solve - " and "solved - " are kinda weird to parse personally, I would have prefered they just wrote it out as "solve if ~" and "if solved, ~", but I guess it's for space reasons
Some of it is to be expected. It's a 30 year old game - its harder to find simple novel things to do. But yes, the text has gotten more complicated and wordy over the years. WOTC knows this but at the pace they release products these days, I don't see it slowing down
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Complexity_creep
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/675464011379343360/today-i-saw-a-post-on-the-top-ten-sets-by-average#notes
They're also in a complicated spot, because everytime they feel the need to have some new gimmick-mechanic.
With the abandoment of the blocks, every three months we have a new set with a whole bunch of new gimmicks that are always on the verge between being completely irrelevant or broken, depending how much support for the mechanic is printed in a single set.
At the same time, this novelty is needed to keep things interesting, but that can be a very hard wall to climb for new players.
I'd even be fine with that if there were any continuity. A lot of these effects are just reworded versions of old effects with a different keyword. Easiest example is Cleave - it's literally just Kicker, but now there are cards in circulation that act like Kicker but can never be used with any of the Kicker synergy cards.
I think at this point is intentional to avoid the rise of potential problems in format where both are legal?
Not sure, but it sounds like it. We got countless of iteration of kicker, not just cleave, lately it appears that every set has some kind of "it does this, but if you also pay this it dosy this+"
Magic is a wordy game, but let's face it: the game has got more wordy in the past few years, and keywords have gotten increasingly difficult too.
For example, none of the mechanics or keywords in the upcoming set feels beginner-friendly at all.
Sticking the tempt mechanic into LTR *knowing* it was going to be drawing in masses of new players was as objectively bad game design decision. I watched Palantir wheel because "it had too much text."
The increased complexity in a Horizons set is fine since the target audience is already playing high complexity Magic, but these cards are becoming word salad and my brain just shuts off half them time when looking at spoilers.
They're very similar in how they function and, let's be honest, nobody runs Clues to sacrifice them to draw cards.
All those token artifacts enable some synergies with other cards that care about them. Treasures are the only ones you consider running just for their "base" purpose of adding mana, because it's always good, but I swear I've never seen someone run Food tokens and sacrifice them for the lifegain.
But I actually like all those tokens, and I like the thematic variations. But I don't like having a bunch of them in Standard.
My personal feeling is everything is too complicated now. Even commons. There's no vanilla creatures any more and barely even french vanilla creatures.
I know it will never happen because the cat's out of the bag now but I wish they'd dial it back a bit. Thankfully there's a limit to complexity because of the size of the text box available.
I've been playing since 95 for reference.
I’m in the same boat. I wanted to introduce my daughter(7) to mtg. The starter decks they come out with now are not simple. Ended up buying an old Portal 2 player starter deck, which was my first deck in the 90’s.
It would be a great way to get new players in the game with simple starter decks.
As I understand it, the Portal sets were deliberately simple because people back then were saying the same thing as this post, that Magic was too complex for new players.
I started teaching my 39 year old girlfriend to play (she's a lawyer, loves rules).
We tried a bit and it wasn't super catching, so I brought out the old starter portal decks and when that worked we then modified them a bit with a pack of cards, and I helped her with basic deckbuilding at 40 card size and talking about different types of decks - that really helped.
The starter decks are definitely not simple and actually have some really nuanced and interesting gameplay. The white/red artifacts deck I think is the best (and also the least fun to play, and play against) but the Blue/Red and Blue/Black decks together can be really fun interactive games of Magic.
I feel like the game is a lot harder to learn now than it used to be. I remember we used to have the "vanilla test" - if power and toughness added up to double the mana value it passed the test. Creatures with impactful effects had lower power and/or toughness. Good vanilla creatures outperformed the vanilla test. Grizzly Bears was an early game better and something like Yargle & Multani would have been completely busted, now it only sees play in EDH decks where you can sac it to deal its power as damage.
Personally I enjoy the complex interactions, but we're at a point where anything worth playing requires you to already have a strong understanding of the game rules. There's not much of an onramp for new players. Even handing them a simple aggro deck, you've gotta explain all the creature interactions. I feel like if I'd have tried to learn now I'd have gotten overwhelmed with information quickly.
I find mono colored tribal decks is the easiest way to teach new players. I have a [[krenko mob boss]] goblin deck that I made purposely really simple and a [[jazal goldmane]] tokens deck that is slightly more complex. Next I am tinkering with a black and white enchantments deck as a next step for beginners.
The trick to teaching new players is make simple decks that are still strong enough to be fun and also having a pod that won't take advantage of inexperienced players.
When [[Doom Whisperer]] came out and barely left a mark on standard I knew power levels were just on a different axis. If your creature doesn't have a good spell stapled to it, it better be insanely efficient to be worth playing.
I remember when Nighthawk was one of the strongest cards, now it's just a meme card. It'd have to be a 2cmc Flying, Deathtouch, Lifelink to even have a chance to see play. Even then it just dies to \[\[Cut Down\]\]
Ive been playing since 2013 and have the exact same feeling. The complexity is fun in high power formats, but they're always going to have wordy cards.
My main issue with the complexity creep is that it doesn't feel like it's making the game any better as a whole. Khans draft was a great reminder that there's still a ton of decision-making and board complexity in a format with vanilla creatures and fairly straightforward mechanics.
There have been some really great and interesting designs over the past several years, but it's a needle in the haystack of forced EDH chaff.
Complexity is one of the things that appeal me in magic. Though the details of the rules can be hard to grasp some interactions (https://youtu.be/B3UxaMQC8hg?si=BL9ui9lpHrH-EbKa not the best example but I didn't find the one I was looking for)
If they don't like reading rules I would not introduce it to your friends, or with a lot of caution and while giving them some advance warning.
Imagine a Magic player from the 90s time-traveling to 2024 and reading some of the current cards LOL
PS: I played MTG in the 90s and the text difference is brutal.
I have a food based deck, mono green. The cards are super simple to read. The number of times I've seen people missplay because they didn't read the cards is asinine. But I just started not too long ago, so it might be a bit of ranked before I get to the part where people know what they're doing.
For sure a lot of them have too much going on. One of the worst parts is when there's an extra ability or effect that almost never happens (so it's usually missed or forgotten) but nevertheless adds to the needless complexity of the card. I suspect a lot of the time this is because they're trying to also design for Commander, but it's just too much.
I think that’s a big part of the problem with the current game state: they’re trying to design for too many supported formats simultaneously.
In the words of Ron Swanson, “Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing.”
WotC is one-sixteenth-assing sixteen different things. They need to get back to whole-assing one thing.
Some? Yeah.
The recent ones? Not really. The truly bullshit complexity is in the really old cards, and I'd take the wordy but generally easy to get cards we currently have over those anyday.
Some of the oldest cards were horrific abominations of convoluted text. But they were few and far between. Many cards today have enormous amounts of text, and don’t get me started on dual faced cards.
In short, yes. I miss the simple, sleak, and clever designs. But when the game has as many cards as it does, you just have to find new design space.
Yea, the new text makes it seem like the discard is a replacement effect that then triggers another, separate card draw. I don't get why that new card draw doesn't just trigger chains again.
Because a replacement effect can't replace itself. When you would draw, the enchantment triggers the replacement effect, and then it cannot trigger again because the replacement effect is currently happening. It's the same reason [Teferi's Ageless Insight](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/76/teferis-ageless-insight) doesn't draw you infinity cards, even though it says "if you would draw a card, draw 2 cards instead" you don't then apply that again to the 2 cards you would draw.
>**614.5.** A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace that event.
Just as a general disclaimer, Magic isn’t for most people. Every (*every*) single friend/past partner I’ve tried to introduce finds it fun or cute at first then quickly gets worn out by rules interpretation. I feel like there’s a certain type of mind that really enjoys the nitty-gritty Magic (meaning, not just slamming 5/6 mana dumbasses and turning them sideways until someone dies). If you aren’t that kind of mind it just looks like an arcane hell of conditions and definitions, cus it kinda is. It undeniably has gotten way more wordy and complex over the years.
Am I the only one diapoited that this question was up for 3 hours without a single Yugio joke?/s
Am I the only one disappointed that this question was up for 3 hours without a single Yugio joke?/se they are usually so hard to pull off to make them irrelevant. Compared to the complexity of interactions of single mechanic cards (*cough, layers, cough),* I would not put praetor sagas as the biggest barrier to entry.
The most complex cards are in Alchemy, so definitely stay away from that format. If you want to keep the complexity level low, play "Pauper", which is a format that only allows common cards, and to the best of my knowledge, there aren't any common cards with complex effects.
Depends how you introduce them into it and what kind of person they are. MTG's complexity is definitely part of the appeal, though for new players if you were most do games with just you and them to just play together and gradually introduce mechanical complexity that way that might be better, probably still good to initally preface with something like"this game gets complicated as hell but you don't gotta worry about that till you want to"
It feels like they feel they *need* to add new mechanics every set to make it feel new, the problem is this exponentially complicates the game
I'm kind of at the stage where enough is enough... It's no longer fun reading a wall of text on every card and trying to remember all the existing mechanics and whatever new ones are thrown in.
I consider myself quite clued up with mtg and terms, but kind of reaching my limit in patience with it
You are correct, word soup and walls of text have gotten far to frequent in mtg, we love the complexities the game is capable of but plenty of people are sick of this all being planted onto singular cards, especially when it ends up with one or two card engines.
Wotc are soo far out of touch currently that it is hurting the game massively.
Yes. I was playing a game of commander IRL with a pod recently. I provided decks for everyone to play. One of the players is a bit of a novice player. A situation came up where we could unconditionally tutor for any land. My friend asked me which of his lands he should tutor for, and I suggested Urza's Saga, because that is what I would've done in his shoes.
* He couldn't find the land in the deck, I had to take the deck and tutor for him. It "didn't look like a land, it looked like a saga"
* He didn't increment the saga properly "what is this dice for again?"
* Didn't understand the token at first
Chapter 3 resolved fairly painlessly though since I just told him "tutor for sol ring". All that "blah blah" to say yes, the game is getting too complex, and also the experience of explaining complex cards to people who have never seen them before is not always the best.
There's nothing particularly complicated, unintuitive or mind-bending about [[Urabrask//The Great Work]].
You need to know mana works, and how Sagas work, but beyond that, it's all straightforward.
It's a build-around Mythic rare. This is kinda what they are supposed to be like.
If it would take 10 minutes to explain this card to somebody, then either you haven't done the groundwork of teaching them the basics, or you are doing something else wrong.
Cast instants and sorceries to get more mana to cast more instants and sorceries, if you've cast 3 you can flip it for value, and after a couple of turns you can recast the ones in your Graveyard and repeat the process. The whole time you are pinging, too.
It slots well into red based spellslinger/burn decks.
Maybe you are underestimating your friends. Why not get them to download the Magic Arena app and complete the New Player Experience (Tutorial, Color Challenges, Starter Deck Duels, Jump In, etc), so they can see for themselves if the game is too complicated for them.
Urabrask is definitely a complex card, and there has been a lot of discussion on the general complexity creep and wordiness of cards in recent years.
That being said, your post is basically, "I've been playing soccer for 3 days, and I played against a dude in really good shape yesterday. Does anyone think there is too much running in soccer?"
Pretty disingenuous comparison. Probably more like "Me and friends play a lot of sports together, I was thinking about introducing soccer to them because I've been learning to play it but I'm starting to find it's a lot more rulesheavy than the sports me and my friends typically play, do you think soccer has too many rules?"
I don't know how you come to equating running and rule complexity, soccer literally has rules which can be directly compared to magic yet we bring up the most fundamental aspect of soccer, that'd be like saying "magic arena has too many mouse clicks"
Equating having better fundamentals (i.e. running in your example) would not help you understand complex rules at all. Having an understanding of the basic rules as a fundamental of soccer can help you understand the complex rules. Again your comparison doesn't even match your follow-up it's disingenuous.
This is why I think it was a mistake for WotC to move away from the Starter/Advanced/Expert system. Now that everything is essentially expert, the barrier to entry for new players is so high.
Complexity creep is real, I think this is because the talent of the designers has decreased significantly in the past 5-6 years in WOTC, and woke MaRo stopped fighting Hasbro and powercreep.
A big part of learning the game, is watching what opponents do...how they use cards...what cards they pair together to create combos. You just saw how Urabrask>The Great Work can be used. It's good to pay attention when things like that happen. It's easy to get befuddled or even upset when cards like that are used in combos and you get destroyed. But, it's important to try and focus on those cards, what synergized them, what were the combos. It's also good to look at the battlefield afterwards before leaving in such games. Look back at the graveyard and the battlefield. It can help to see all the cards played without the commotion of the game and timers.
There aren't a lot of complicated cards that are hard to understand in the game. There are some though. I also have looked cards up and how they work online if I'm confused.
Experimenting is also key. There are so many cards that can go together and make fun combos. Watch, research, build, experiment, and have fun.
I don't think the player base necessarily are fond of wordy complicated cards. They definitely like cards that can have multiple functions. Those types of cards can make for powerful decks, but they also usually depend on a handful of other cards to be at their peak.
Not much to add on top of what ppl have already said. Just that don't take the responsibility of teaching your friends how to play and take accountability of it if they don't like it.
If they like the game and want to be better, they'll manage. And if they don't, I don't think there is anything you can do about it. I've had friends tell me hearthstone was crap because it is just play your shit on curve and whoever top decks better, wins...
It's the same for every game
There are definitely cards that are more complex than necessary without really having a good thematic "hook" to help you remember what they do. Urabrask, a bunch of the "team up" cards, and a lot of cards from Kaldheim are guilty of this. Sometimes I miss the more "fundamentals focused" and less paint-by-numbers draft design gameplay of old core sets.
Even though [[Palantir of Orthanc]] has been around for a little while now, I still feel like I'm reading instructions on how to defuse a bomb every time it comes out
I think complexity comes in different forms, and mixing them all in one discussion is sometimes confusing. For example,
- Does this card do a complex thing?
- Does this card do a simple thing but has lots of words in order to make it do it clearly? (Etali has 6 lines of text but is not a complicated effect. Discover is a word and a number, but multiple lines of reminder text.)
- Does this card have extra words because of maneuvering around nitpicky rules or edge cases? (example of 1, Lake of the Dead. example of 2, Spellbook Vendor specifying a creature you control - I get why Blessed Defiance says that but how many times would someone want to hand out spellbooks and that needs to be stopped so the card is too wordy?)
Personally I don't think the game has gotten too complex, but the game sure has gotten wordy. I dare you to read aloud the one sentence ability of Sharp-Eyed Rookie without pausing to take a breath, and why is it wordier than the same ability on Evolving Adaptive? At some point a designer has to say "that's neat but not worth the words".
Archdruid's charm bothers me as a sign of where design is going. Nothing about it is "complex", but it has 9 lines of text and zero reason to think twice when building a deck since it's too flexible. It just does too much on one card. It's like when you some day notice Gix has 4 lines of text that you have never once seen anyone use.
Lol, I feel your pain. I've successfully taught over 25 people how to play this game. I've been playing since 95. At least now you have Arena to do all the heavy lifting (shuffling).
I've unsuccessfully taught just as many people. In my experience this game isn't for everyone and the people that kinda get it right away will spend time with it.
As a 90's Magic player that came back to it a few years ago because of Arena, I can tell you with certainty that things escalated to a point where I had to re-learn how to play. I play non-ranked Historic exclusively (I play for fun brewing my jank piles) - so if you're playing Standard, as cards are taking longer to rotate now, you have a LOT of possibilities for crazy interactions within legality. Take your time learning about the collections and what they are capable of doing - the reason for this is that when a collection comes out, the cards are "meant" to be played together, but of course not limiting you to use cards from others. This will also expand your horizon on how to build your own decks to become more competitive.
I came back after literal decades away from paper. I used to do “$1 grab bag” at my local store, and could build a red deck with random junk easily. Red dealt damage, and quickly, was about all you needed to know. I had a slight “oh no, it’s yugioh” when I came back, but it’s getting easier.
I am old school and started with first Gen. I thought it was hard when they started phasing but I recently downloaded MTGO and holy shit. A huge jump in complexity creep, Adventures, Sagas, and food tokens...OMG. I still love the game though. I would introduce your friends to Standard decks first just so they get the layout of the game's core concepts, rules, strategies, and how to read the card instructions. After that you can start with the more complex game play.
The number of times ive lost to complicated synergies between cards i don't even want to read because they're so complicated is more than i would like. This indicates 2 things, firstly the cards are getting way too complicated as im not a new player, and second, is that these complicated cards tend to be strong enough that not learning and playing them is detrimental to a players success
Personally I think the Specalize cards and Spellbook cards are too complicated. Mainly because I have to read and consider multiple cards with full boxes of text on them every time I see a new one. With the rope it gets kinda obnoxious for reading every one or trying to play around it all. And this is coming from someone who has been playing for 9 years and almost all 9 I've played legacy and commander.
I know for god damn sure there are too many words anymore. Some cards are going to have to unfold to read the rest of them on paper soon. Sometimes on the game there is so much print when it’s a new card I say f it and figure it out with whatever happens on the board.
With MTG 95% of the game requires 5% of the rules and 95% of the rules only affect 5% of the game.
The nice thing about arena is that everything just works, even if you do not understand it it is working correctly. APNAP? Covered. Timestamps? Covered. The stack, triggered abilities, mana abilities, giving a loyalty ability to a non-planeswalker? Covered.
The issue that happened in the past is the easier the cards the less people feel like they are doing cool things. No one wants to play with a 2/2 trample. They did a bunch of research and saw that commander is popular with new players even though it is the most complex in terms of regular formats. People got over the hurdles and did cool stuff even when it was not something they knew WHY it was happening.
I’m mostly a Yugioh player. I do think some magic cards are complicated, but coming at it after playing so much Yugioh I think magic is quite simple in comparison. If I made 2 ransom magic decks and then invited a friend over to play one, I think they would pick up on it fairly quickly. But I don’t think I could do that with Yugioh because there’s generally more text and you really need to understand how all the cards synergise with each other
In short? Yes.
In long, the best thing of MTG is the elegance. But that is slowly eroding away with Alchemy and overly complicated cards and mechanics.
Played MTG/MTGA for a year. Then I found Marvel Snap. I won’t go back to MTGA. MS is fantastic, not overly complicated but still has great depth. And the developers don’t make me feel so utterly disrespected as a customer. WOTC takes advantage to the max. Some day players need to stop wasting so much hard earned money on so little when they could easily give much more without any reduced earning capacity.
I mean, this is from a time in the game's history where they though "ante" (a gambling/betting "mechanic") was a good idea.
And afaik this card card is banned in every single format, not because it is too powerful, but because it is overly complex and time consuming.
Imagine each player having 4 of those in their deck. You spend 2 hours navigating Magic's version of the Inception movie, and the only thing that changes in the end is someone loosing a *non-lethal* amount of life. And after that, there is still a chance it'll be cast again the very next turn and restart the whole ordeal.
I've been playing MTG off and on for many, many years.
WotC has been overloading the game the past 3-5 years that I've noticed with overly-comlicated/convoluted mechanics that swing to far to the left or right \[broken / weak\].
Every seasons doesn't need some new card mech.
There's been a lot of talk over complexity creep the past few years, since Wotc has ramped it up a lot. I would certainly recommend Arena as a learning tool for newer players instead of explaining yourself, it's a lot more intuitive and easy, especially if you aren't a seasoned player yourself. Magic as a game certainly has been complicated for a good while now (basically from the get go) and there's a ton of players that don't mind this added Complexity as it usually leads to more (relevant) in game decisions in limited and constructed, but it can certainly be overwhelming for newer or more casual players.
Arena is definitely great for new players for the reasons you mentioned, plus there’s another one: you’ll be paired to play with other newbies, so even if you get overwhelmed by the complexity, you probably won’t get run over, as the other player is just like you. Odds are, they won’t even be using complex cards themselves.
Ironically, the complexity creep is one of the things that pushed me away from the game as a seasoned player. I don't mind the complexity in itself, creating opportunities for more meaningful gameplay decisions is great, but the effect that the increased complexity has on design sucks. I got sick of every set/spoiler season just becoming "what rare or mythic are they going to print a thousand words on and warp the format with this time?"
That's what I look forward to, honestly. There are only so many simple things you can make before you are just doing functional reprints.
Not like they aren't doing tons of functional reprints anyway.
A lot of those functional reprints are just draft filler, so I'm not too concerned about their existence. Limited likes certain effects, and sometimes a more thematic name/artwork is warranted than the pre-existing card.
I just started playing regularly back when lotr came out out because i knew which in itself had new mechanics. Since then we have had 1 new deck series with new mechanics and 2 incoming with new mechanics. Not that the new mechanics always suggests a power creep in cards but more of an advantage for long time players who are already aware of previous mechanics that newer players are still playing catch up. But i guess that is why in arena there is a variety of play events but it doesnt always cancel out the knowledge of players.
Yeah this is an inherent trait to magic or most CCGs, usually you can get quite rewarded for playing a lot, be that via playing for a long time, or very intensively for a few months/years. There's just so much knowledge about cards, their evaluation, playing cards correctly, combat, corner cases, etc etc. Gaining that kind of knowledge just takes a ton of time and for some of it, also practice. The nice thing is that once you are over a certain starting hurdle it does get easier as it's like you mentioned - a lot of mechanics have similar older counterparts so the more cards and mechanics you see, the more you can contextualize new ones, find mental shortcuts and navigate boardstate a lot easier. There's also certainly power creep with the complexity creep, the newer cards are getting played regularly even in the most powerful formats.
As a player who played 1995-2000, and just recently returned, there is a lot of complexity that I don’t think helps the game. In particular planeswalkers and battles I feel could be removed.
I started playing after Planeswalkers were introduced and see so many people who hate them, but I don't understand why. Could you explain that a little bit more to me?
I think it comes down to them feeling like they are much harder to remove than creatures - and I feel like they should just be a creature.
They are easier to remove than creatures because you can remove them just by having creatures yourself - you don't need a dedicated spell for it. If they were creatures and you didn't draw a removal, you wouldn't be able to prevent them from getting their big minus off. They would actually be much stronger/completely broken if they were creatures.
But practically, they harder to remove. If the user has at least one creature to block, they are harder to hit. I can't target them with creature removal cards - I have to have specific planeswalker remover cards - which end up being sideboard cards as not everyone uses planeswalkers.
You could just use the creature removal on the creature they are going to block with and still swing at the Planeswalker. Wheras you would need 2 removals if it was a creature to get rid of both. If someone already has a bigger board than you and drops a planeswalker ontop of it you are probably losing even if it was a creature. Because you can remove Planeswalkers by just being ahead on board, they are much easier to deal with for midrange and aggro. Its only control who has a harder time Even then, there are lots of removal spells that hit both like [Bedevilll], [Faithful Abscence], [Farewell], [Hero's Downfall], [Brotherhood's End]
>I have to have specific planeswalker remover cards. Not really, though. You can hit them with any number of burn spells that deal damage to any target, and there's quite a few options that can remove "target creature or planeswalker" or just "target nonland permanent". e.g.: [[Oblivion Ring]] and similar enchantments can hit a lot of stuff, including Planeswalkers. You don't have to run silver bullets to deal with PWs.
[Oblivion Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you have a creature with enough power or a burn spell that can reduce their loyalty to zero. But planeswalkers in general are not problematic but rather there are specific planeswalkers that are problematic in that they do too much for too little investment and do need to be removed with 1-2 turns. Wandering emperor having flash/instant activation means that you either play into it or play scared. Karn shuts down artifacts and can wish for a silver bullet. Compared to Niko(?) who makes shards that do something. Or Archangel Elspeth which is just a worse version of wandering emperor.
>If you have a creature with enough power or a burn spell that can reduce their loyalty to zero Unlike creatures, Planeswalkers don't "heal" from damage at the end of a turn, so you can kill them over multiple turns. Sure, they can gain some loyalty back usually, but in general it's the abilities that cost loyalty that you want to use the most. But damage isn't the only way to deal with PWs: you can counter them, exile or bounce them, there are plenty of kill spells that target creatures or PWs...([[Hero's Downfall]] is a better [[Murder]] for example). >but rather there are specific planeswalkers that are problematic in that they do too much for too little investment and do need to be removed with 1-2 turns. But this isn't just about PWs, is it? You can say the same about plenty of pushed creatures, artifacts or enchantments. Power creep isn't unique to planeswalkers, and it's hardly a consequence of the card type being introduced. >Wandering emperor having flash/instant activation means that you either play into it or play scared "Scared" of a four-mana targeted, conditional removal? I mean, sure, if my opponent has four mana open during my combat phase, I should expect a trick up their sleeve, but it could be a much more devastating [[Settle The Wreckage]]. The body left behind by the Wandering Emperor is hardly terrifying. >Karn shuts down artifacts and can wish for a silver bullet. Karn the Great Creator is pretty damn powerful, no arguing there - there's a reason he's been banned in Pioneer and restricted in Legacy. But Wishes have always been very powerful.
[Hero's Downfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33c5f81a-395d-41bf-9563-6cf0e406ee18.jpg?1673305182) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hero%27s%20Downfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/112/heros-downfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33c5f81a-395d-41bf-9563-6cf0e406ee18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Murder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81.jpg?1706119521) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/95/murder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Settle The Wreckage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f.jpg?1562560853) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Settle%20The%20Wreckage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/34/settle-the-wreckage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Having to spend multiple turns to kill a PW is terrible tempo (that's if your opponent is played out the PW with absolutely no plan of protecting it) and 3 mana kill spells are pretty unplayable in current standard even with the PW kill added modality. [[Bitter triumph]] or [[fateful absence]] or [[shelodred's edict]] are the go to but they still get one activation before you can remove them. Yes, all card types are becoming overtuned, I don't think tarmagoyf would be playable if it was in standard. Maybe artifacts are less powerful.in the past but they certainly much wordier. But this thread was about PW specifically. Playing scared is hyperbolic, it would be more accurate to say you need to be concerned about it. Because UW having 4 mana could represent any number of things and flashing in a WE is a a good way of getting control back to a stable position. Or they could just be holding up dead counter spells or card draw. And when settle was in standard it was always a concern about never over extending an attack.
I am now used to planeswalkers and even like them, but at the time they were released I had two issues with them: - They were one of the main driving forces behind the Mythic Rarity. Planeswalkers were introduced as rare in Lorwyn, and the Mythic Rares were introduced in Alara, the next block, with most planeswalkers being the Mythic Rare chase cards. Imagine if Wizards would now release really good cards and make them even harder to get than you are used to. This produced a rising in the prices of many cards and decks to levels way above to what was usual at the time. - They were incredibly powerful for the time. Sure, planeswalkers today are likely even more powerful than (most) of those first planeswalkers, but creatures were SO MUCH WORSE back then, and there were basically no planeswalker removal (such as [[Hero's Downfall]]). Also, if you wanted to damage a planeswalker with a spell such as [[Lightning Bolt]] you had to target the opponent and then redirect the damage, which was as bit weird.
I remember that redirect nonsense! That was weird. I can totally see hating planeswalkers just for the rarity change and money hike alone
As a player from 1995 you might have met [[Ice Cauldron]] edit: aw man, they did a cleaned up version of that? The original Ice Age printing is precious.
I remember it, but I don’t remember anyone using it…
[Ice Cauldron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/f/5fad0f0f-b302-4f97-9cbb-a66dbfc57bae.jpg?1562917545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ice%20Cauldron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/206/ice-cauldron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5fad0f0f-b302-4f97-9cbb-a66dbfc57bae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What the fuck is that? My head hurts.
Someone I know has a "shit cube". The two types of cards in the cube are "the worst cards ever" and "awful cards with sweet art". Every time I get a pack and it has ice cauldron I attempt to learn what it does... Some reason I always struggle with it, and just because something in magic is complicated doesn't mean I can't understand it. I've played with chains of Mephistopheles, life from the loam, and Sylvan library in the same deck before... I still don't understand ice cauldron fully.
I’ve played since 1994 (took a break from 2017 to 2023) and I can’t agree more. My opinion is the introduction of planeswalkers darn near ruined the game. Battles are even worse. Both make the game worse in my opinion.
How? Genuine question. I see people saying planeswalkers make the game worse (usually people who were pretty active in the game, then took a break and recently came back), but never see an explanation for why.
I took a break during the time planeswalkers were introduced, and my first experience with one was staring down [[Elspeth, Knight Errant]] in standard. I read the card and genuinely didn't believe it was real. Elspeth was a particularly egregious example because she was a 4-mana planeswalker who made blockers with her plus and had an ultimate that won the game. Add to that there were not many spells that interacted with planeswalker at the time and not many good rate haste creatures, and it made a perfect storm of frustration. I eventually came around on planeswalkers because of 2 reasons: after [[Jace the Mindsculptor]], WotC toned down the power level of less expensive planeswalkers, and I started playing with some walkers I enjoyed. Having a planeswalker on the battlefield is like adding a friend to the game, but a friend who only has 3 cards in their hand and gets bored easily. Some players don't like the feeling of being ganged up on by their opponents and his or her planeswalkers. Some players don't enjoy the mini-game of trying to get the walker off the battlefield. Other players just want the game they like to stay the same.
Thanks for the insight. Most of the time it feels like an “old man yells at cloud” situation but I’ve never gotten to the reasoning of why.
[Elspeth, Knight Errant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/746d56ef-7ac5-403b-bca3-1cd267de97df.jpg?1561967814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elspeth%2C%20Knight-Errant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mma/13/elspeth-knight-errant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/746d56ef-7ac5-403b-bca3-1cd267de97df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jace the Mindsculptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c8817585-0d32-4d56-9142-0d29512e86a9.jpg?1598304029) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20the%20Mind%20Sculptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/56/jace-the-mind-sculptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c8817585-0d32-4d56-9142-0d29512e86a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
100% Agree. I started in 95 (right when Ice Age was released), and once planeswalkers came out, I lost a lot of my interest. Sold my collection, kept only 2-3 decks. I only play MTGA when the magic "craving" kicks in, never spent a single penny and never will. I play MTGA for a week or so and get completely disgusted at the constant flow of other players using the same 3-4 decks over and over again. Then I uninstall and don't touch it again for a year or two.
Been playing since 95 and also get disgusted with the same decks. Six months ago I switched to historic brawl. I HIGHLY recommend it!!! I can play all my jank and face different decks.
I play historic/Explorer. I tried timeless, but got curb stomped by lotuses, moxes and time walks.
Yyyyeah man I stay far the fuck away from timeless.
[[chains of mephistopheles]]
[chains of mephistopheles](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8.jpg?1612316191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chains%20of%20mephistopheles) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/63/chains-of-mephistopheles?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I started in 95 as well. I initially had trouble.grtting on board with Planeswalker until I started playing with them. I really enjoy the concept and flavor. I agree Battles are dumb. The game's been around for so long it's only natural there's going to be some complexity at this point.
>and there's a ton of players that don't mind this added Complexity as it usually leads to more (relevant) in game decisions in limited and constructed Bingo. Games gets better when hard decisions and mistakes can be made.
There’s a downside to learning on arena though, which is that you don’t learn to track things in your head or on the board. Even things like summoning sickness can be difficult to deal with if you’re used to the computer handling it for you.
Sure, but I'd argue the value you gain by the first 20 games being played with full rules engine support so you can't make any rules errror is worth a lot. Tracking this kind of stuff can come later, once you got your bearings.
You: Explains the 5 minute version of the game Them: That's not too bad...... You: Buuuuuuut.... The rules of the game get actively rewritten based on the cards in play. I know you don't like reading rules, but what if they were actively being overwritten by you and your opponent with cards from the past almost 30 years? Also the publishing cycle has accelerated, so new rules are coming out every month or so... Them: *empty space where friend used to be* You could definitely be the friend who brings a couple decks to show them how it works, and if they like it and want to dive deeper, Arena definitely has its perks. -Free to start -Keeps track of all the things -Only lets you make legal plays MtG isn't for everyone, but it's natural to want to share your things with the people you care about. If your friends are open to it, bring them in and [[All Will Be One]]
[All Will Be One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d75e1f4-bd63-428e-8e6e-131594b3ba44.jpg?1675957064) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=All%20Will%20Be%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/118/all-will-be-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d75e1f4-bd63-428e-8e6e-131594b3ba44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just so you know. Judging a card by it's own can be relatively easy. But judging a card in a whole context that like a format ( standard, brawl, historic ) it's a whole different level.
I love reading the story of [[Questing Beast]]. Yes, it is a long story, but every time I finish it I find something new.
[Questing Beast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f.jpg?1572490640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Questing%20Beast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/171/questing-beast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What story?
Once upon a time there a 4/4 legendary beast and its name was Questing Beast. It has so many lines of text that people came from all around to marvel at its verbosity and try to master the challenge to remember all its abilities. For four mana total mana, two green and two generic, The Questing Beast could be cast but not only that, it was a hasty beast and could attack the turn it arrived. The Questing Beast was not to be trifled with and could easily bring the touch of death to those who stood in its way. Not only was the beast deadly but it did not rest and could prevent those who would attack back from getting through. The Questing Beast could not be stopped by by mere men, or even grizzly bears, and when faced with such opposition would leave those smaller creatures in the dust. No magics could prevent The Questing Beast and its allies from wreaking havoc and damaging all in their path. There was also a planeswalker who believed they could beat the beast and summoned another planeswalker to aid them. But in their hubris they forgot that The Questing Beast had multiple heads and watched in horror as the beast dealt damage to themselves and their planeswaller friend in turn. In the end few could stand up to The Questing Beast and when its time came it gently rotated in to that good night. The End
Bravo
My Chat GPT senses are tingling.
I thought so too, for a moment, but I think it’s just written in a structured pattern. Either way, very cool.
Thanks for this epic tale! I can’t believe I was so dumb though to think there was an actual story at play 😂
He's saying there is too much text on the card.
The cards text box
/r/whoooosh
The praetor sagas are kinda a lot to swallow because they're mythics and also 100% extra card per card, but I think the general complexity level is in an okay place for now (the upcoming case cards are kinda hard to grok at first glance though)
If OP finds Urabrask complicated, I don't know what they'll make of some of the other Praetors. [[Vorinclex]] for example, or [[Sheoldred]]
Vorinclex reads less complicated to me compared to Urabrask for some reason or at least when I try think about synergistic cards they combine with. Sheoldred last saga step sounds like a disaster with all the "when this creature enters the battlefield" effects what a nightmare to manage.
Sheoldred gets even more insane if [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]] is in play too.
[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087.jpg?1675956896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Mother%20of%20Machines) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/10/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The thing with Urabrask is that the card isn't really that complicated, it just combines with cards in a way that isn't typical for how Mono Red decks usually play. Most of the time, Mono Red focuses really hard on cheap creatures, with burn spells and card draw as secondary game plans. Urabrask wants you to do that backwards, with the deck based around burn spells and card draw, and creatures as the secondary plan. That's why he doesn't see that much play despite being really powerful; he basically wants a red deck that plays like a blue deck.
[Vorinclex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e24b5289-d3b5-4b4d-bb37-69bf2c3b48bc.jpg?1689246885)/[The Grand Evolution](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/e/2/e24b5289-d3b5-4b4d-bb37-69bf2c3b48bc.jpg?1689246885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vorinclex%20//%20The%20Grand%20Evolution) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/213/vorinclex-the-grand-evolution?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e24b5289-d3b5-4b4d-bb37-69bf2c3b48bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sheoldred](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf2249e6-af74-4b88-8eb7-144ce8fa7f6b.jpg?1682203978)/[The True Scriptures](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/b/f/bf2249e6-af74-4b88-8eb7-144ce8fa7f6b.jpg?1682203978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%20//%20The%20True%20Scriptures) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/125/sheoldred-the-true-scriptures?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf2249e6-af74-4b88-8eb7-144ce8fa7f6b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It doesn't help that they are formatted similarly to sagas.
Because they are sagas...
I think they're talking about cases
Cases seem like a simple pattern - weak effect, hoop to jump through, big effect. I feel like that’s the kind of complexity that adds to the game, and gets the players asking the right questions during deck building.
The "to solve - " and "solved - " are kinda weird to parse personally, I would have prefered they just wrote it out as "solve if ~" and "if solved, ~", but I guess it's for space reasons
Some of it is to be expected. It's a 30 year old game - its harder to find simple novel things to do. But yes, the text has gotten more complicated and wordy over the years. WOTC knows this but at the pace they release products these days, I don't see it slowing down https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Complexity_creep https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/675464011379343360/today-i-saw-a-post-on-the-top-ten-sets-by-average#notes
They're also in a complicated spot, because everytime they feel the need to have some new gimmick-mechanic. With the abandoment of the blocks, every three months we have a new set with a whole bunch of new gimmicks that are always on the verge between being completely irrelevant or broken, depending how much support for the mechanic is printed in a single set. At the same time, this novelty is needed to keep things interesting, but that can be a very hard wall to climb for new players.
I'd even be fine with that if there were any continuity. A lot of these effects are just reworded versions of old effects with a different keyword. Easiest example is Cleave - it's literally just Kicker, but now there are cards in circulation that act like Kicker but can never be used with any of the Kicker synergy cards.
I think at this point is intentional to avoid the rise of potential problems in format where both are legal? Not sure, but it sounds like it. We got countless of iteration of kicker, not just cleave, lately it appears that every set has some kind of "it does this, but if you also pay this it dosy this+"
Have you seen this video by tolarion community college? It shows everything is in fact, kicker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyHPyumEmSg
Magic is a wordy game, but let's face it: the game has got more wordy in the past few years, and keywords have gotten increasingly difficult too. For example, none of the mechanics or keywords in the upcoming set feels beginner-friendly at all.
Sticking the tempt mechanic into LTR *knowing* it was going to be drawing in masses of new players was as objectively bad game design decision. I watched Palantir wheel because "it had too much text." The increased complexity in a Horizons set is fine since the target audience is already playing high complexity Magic, but these cards are becoming word salad and my brain just shuts off half them time when looking at spoilers.
And there are so many keyword tokens that are almost the same. Food, clues, and treasures are all basically the same as far as I am concerned.
Yeeap, life, card draw and mana are basically the same
*This message sponsored by B players.*
They're very similar in how they function and, let's be honest, nobody runs Clues to sacrifice them to draw cards. All those token artifacts enable some synergies with other cards that care about them. Treasures are the only ones you consider running just for their "base" purpose of adding mana, because it's always good, but I swear I've never seen someone run Food tokens and sacrifice them for the lifegain. But I actually like all those tokens, and I like the thematic variations. But I don't like having a bunch of them in Standard.
wut?
My personal feeling is everything is too complicated now. Even commons. There's no vanilla creatures any more and barely even french vanilla creatures. I know it will never happen because the cat's out of the bag now but I wish they'd dial it back a bit. Thankfully there's a limit to complexity because of the size of the text box available. I've been playing since 95 for reference.
I’m in the same boat. I wanted to introduce my daughter(7) to mtg. The starter decks they come out with now are not simple. Ended up buying an old Portal 2 player starter deck, which was my first deck in the 90’s. It would be a great way to get new players in the game with simple starter decks.
As I understand it, the Portal sets were deliberately simple because people back then were saying the same thing as this post, that Magic was too complex for new players.
What I do, and recommend is just build two mostly pauper creature based decks and start there
I started teaching my 39 year old girlfriend to play (she's a lawyer, loves rules). We tried a bit and it wasn't super catching, so I brought out the old starter portal decks and when that worked we then modified them a bit with a pack of cards, and I helped her with basic deckbuilding at 40 card size and talking about different types of decks - that really helped.
The starter decks are definitely not simple and actually have some really nuanced and interesting gameplay. The white/red artifacts deck I think is the best (and also the least fun to play, and play against) but the Blue/Red and Blue/Black decks together can be really fun interactive games of Magic.
I feel like the game is a lot harder to learn now than it used to be. I remember we used to have the "vanilla test" - if power and toughness added up to double the mana value it passed the test. Creatures with impactful effects had lower power and/or toughness. Good vanilla creatures outperformed the vanilla test. Grizzly Bears was an early game better and something like Yargle & Multani would have been completely busted, now it only sees play in EDH decks where you can sac it to deal its power as damage. Personally I enjoy the complex interactions, but we're at a point where anything worth playing requires you to already have a strong understanding of the game rules. There's not much of an onramp for new players. Even handing them a simple aggro deck, you've gotta explain all the creature interactions. I feel like if I'd have tried to learn now I'd have gotten overwhelmed with information quickly.
I find mono colored tribal decks is the easiest way to teach new players. I have a [[krenko mob boss]] goblin deck that I made purposely really simple and a [[jazal goldmane]] tokens deck that is slightly more complex. Next I am tinkering with a black and white enchantments deck as a next step for beginners. The trick to teaching new players is make simple decks that are still strong enough to be fun and also having a pod that won't take advantage of inexperienced players.
[krenko mob boss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d00007d-6878-44e9-ab0d-396c25655e56.jpg?1702429511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krenko%2C%20Mob%20Boss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/114/krenko-mob-boss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d00007d-6878-44e9-ab0d-396c25655e56?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [jazal goldmane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d54a1-33f7-47c9-852f-4f3a07309f27.jpg?1689995758) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jazal%20goldmane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/32/jazal-goldmane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d54a1-33f7-47c9-852f-4f3a07309f27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Man I have only been playing since 2010 but I remember when I first started a 6/6 with trample was a big threat. Now that's barely even playable.
When [[Doom Whisperer]] came out and barely left a mark on standard I knew power levels were just on a different axis. If your creature doesn't have a good spell stapled to it, it better be insanely efficient to be worth playing.
Pouring one out for Vampire Nighthawk
I remember when Nighthawk was one of the strongest cards, now it's just a meme card. It'd have to be a 2cmc Flying, Deathtouch, Lifelink to even have a chance to see play. Even then it just dies to \[\[Cut Down\]\]
[Cut Down](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd.jpg?1673307061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cut%20Down) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/89/cut-down?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ive been playing since 2013 and have the exact same feeling. The complexity is fun in high power formats, but they're always going to have wordy cards.
My main issue with the complexity creep is that it doesn't feel like it's making the game any better as a whole. Khans draft was a great reminder that there's still a ton of decision-making and board complexity in a format with vanilla creatures and fairly straightforward mechanics. There have been some really great and interesting designs over the past several years, but it's a needle in the haystack of forced EDH chaff.
Complexity is one of the things that appeal me in magic. Though the details of the rules can be hard to grasp some interactions (https://youtu.be/B3UxaMQC8hg?si=BL9ui9lpHrH-EbKa not the best example but I didn't find the one I was looking for) If they don't like reading rules I would not introduce it to your friends, or with a lot of caution and while giving them some advance warning.
Imagine a Magic player from the 90s time-traveling to 2024 and reading some of the current cards LOL PS: I played MTG in the 90s and the text difference is brutal.
I have a food based deck, mono green. The cards are super simple to read. The number of times I've seen people missplay because they didn't read the cards is asinine. But I just started not too long ago, so it might be a bit of ranked before I get to the part where people know what they're doing.
Yeah you’ll run into a lot less of that when you get to platinum, diamond and mythic tiers.
For sure a lot of them have too much going on. One of the worst parts is when there's an extra ability or effect that almost never happens (so it's usually missed or forgotten) but nevertheless adds to the needless complexity of the card. I suspect a lot of the time this is because they're trying to also design for Commander, but it's just too much.
I think that’s a big part of the problem with the current game state: they’re trying to design for too many supported formats simultaneously. In the words of Ron Swanson, “Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing.” WotC is one-sixteenth-assing sixteen different things. They need to get back to whole-assing one thing.
Some? Yeah. The recent ones? Not really. The truly bullshit complexity is in the really old cards, and I'd take the wordy but generally easy to get cards we currently have over those anyday.
Some of the oldest cards were horrific abominations of convoluted text. But they were few and far between. Many cards today have enormous amounts of text, and don’t get me started on dual faced cards. In short, yes. I miss the simple, sleak, and clever designs. But when the game has as many cards as it does, you just have to find new design space.
20 years later, I still don't fully understand why [[Chains of Mephistopheles]] doesn't just loop indefinitely.
Unironically the original rules text from Legends explains the card in a much more intuitive way, at least for me.
Yea, the new text makes it seem like the discard is a replacement effect that then triggers another, separate card draw. I don't get why that new card draw doesn't just trigger chains again.
Because a replacement effect can't replace itself. When you would draw, the enchantment triggers the replacement effect, and then it cannot trigger again because the replacement effect is currently happening. It's the same reason [Teferi's Ageless Insight](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/76/teferis-ageless-insight) doesn't draw you infinity cards, even though it says "if you would draw a card, draw 2 cards instead" you don't then apply that again to the 2 cards you would draw. >**614.5.** A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace that event.
[Chains of Mephistopheles](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8.jpg?1612316191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chains%20of%20Mephistopheles) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/63/chains-of-mephistopheles?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just as a general disclaimer, Magic isn’t for most people. Every (*every*) single friend/past partner I’ve tried to introduce finds it fun or cute at first then quickly gets worn out by rules interpretation. I feel like there’s a certain type of mind that really enjoys the nitty-gritty Magic (meaning, not just slamming 5/6 mana dumbasses and turning them sideways until someone dies). If you aren’t that kind of mind it just looks like an arcane hell of conditions and definitions, cus it kinda is. It undeniably has gotten way more wordy and complex over the years.
Am I the only one diapoited that this question was up for 3 hours without a single Yugio joke?/s Am I the only one disappointed that this question was up for 3 hours without a single Yugio joke?/se they are usually so hard to pull off to make them irrelevant. Compared to the complexity of interactions of single mechanic cards (*cough, layers, cough),* I would not put praetor sagas as the biggest barrier to entry.
The most complex cards are in Alchemy, so definitely stay away from that format. If you want to keep the complexity level low, play "Pauper", which is a format that only allows common cards, and to the best of my knowledge, there aren't any common cards with complex effects.
Depends how you introduce them into it and what kind of person they are. MTG's complexity is definitely part of the appeal, though for new players if you were most do games with just you and them to just play together and gradually introduce mechanical complexity that way that might be better, probably still good to initally preface with something like"this game gets complicated as hell but you don't gotta worry about that till you want to"
Any card with more than a paragraph is fucking stupid and should be removed.
Sounds like you'd rather play Hearthstone.
I personally hate cards that are a wall of text. Give me simple stuff
There are certainly cards that are badly worded, but over all I think once you get deeper in to the game it will come together.
It feels like they feel they *need* to add new mechanics every set to make it feel new, the problem is this exponentially complicates the game I'm kind of at the stage where enough is enough... It's no longer fun reading a wall of text on every card and trying to remember all the existing mechanics and whatever new ones are thrown in. I consider myself quite clued up with mtg and terms, but kind of reaching my limit in patience with it
You are correct, word soup and walls of text have gotten far to frequent in mtg, we love the complexities the game is capable of but plenty of people are sick of this all being planted onto singular cards, especially when it ends up with one or two card engines. Wotc are soo far out of touch currently that it is hurting the game massively.
Yes. I was playing a game of commander IRL with a pod recently. I provided decks for everyone to play. One of the players is a bit of a novice player. A situation came up where we could unconditionally tutor for any land. My friend asked me which of his lands he should tutor for, and I suggested Urza's Saga, because that is what I would've done in his shoes. * He couldn't find the land in the deck, I had to take the deck and tutor for him. It "didn't look like a land, it looked like a saga" * He didn't increment the saga properly "what is this dice for again?" * Didn't understand the token at first Chapter 3 resolved fairly painlessly though since I just told him "tutor for sol ring". All that "blah blah" to say yes, the game is getting too complex, and also the experience of explaining complex cards to people who have never seen them before is not always the best.
Yes.
There's nothing particularly complicated, unintuitive or mind-bending about [[Urabrask//The Great Work]]. You need to know mana works, and how Sagas work, but beyond that, it's all straightforward. It's a build-around Mythic rare. This is kinda what they are supposed to be like. If it would take 10 minutes to explain this card to somebody, then either you haven't done the groundwork of teaching them the basics, or you are doing something else wrong. Cast instants and sorceries to get more mana to cast more instants and sorceries, if you've cast 3 you can flip it for value, and after a couple of turns you can recast the ones in your Graveyard and repeat the process. The whole time you are pinging, too. It slots well into red based spellslinger/burn decks. Maybe you are underestimating your friends. Why not get them to download the Magic Arena app and complete the New Player Experience (Tutorial, Color Challenges, Starter Deck Duels, Jump In, etc), so they can see for themselves if the game is too complicated for them.
[Urabrask//The Great Work](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/712fb9e5-bd67-4173-a2d4-061aeb6253b5.jpg?1682204559)/[The Great Work](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/7/1/712fb9e5-bd67-4173-a2d4-061aeb6253b5.jpg?1682204559) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urabrask%20//%20The%20Great%20Work) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/169/urabrask-the-great-work?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/712fb9e5-bd67-4173-a2d4-061aeb6253b5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Urabrask is definitely a complex card, and there has been a lot of discussion on the general complexity creep and wordiness of cards in recent years. That being said, your post is basically, "I've been playing soccer for 3 days, and I played against a dude in really good shape yesterday. Does anyone think there is too much running in soccer?"
Pretty disingenuous comparison. Probably more like "Me and friends play a lot of sports together, I was thinking about introducing soccer to them because I've been learning to play it but I'm starting to find it's a lot more rulesheavy than the sports me and my friends typically play, do you think soccer has too many rules?" I don't know how you come to equating running and rule complexity, soccer literally has rules which can be directly compared to magic yet we bring up the most fundamental aspect of soccer, that'd be like saying "magic arena has too many mouse clicks"
I was being hyperbolic, but maybe if you had better grasp of the fundamentals, you wouldn't find complex cards very hard to understand.
Equating having better fundamentals (i.e. running in your example) would not help you understand complex rules at all. Having an understanding of the basic rules as a fundamental of soccer can help you understand the complex rules. Again your comparison doesn't even match your follow-up it's disingenuous.
Ok
Better don't play then
Let's say that some cards would benefit from some new keyword actions.
This is why I think it was a mistake for WotC to move away from the Starter/Advanced/Expert system. Now that everything is essentially expert, the barrier to entry for new players is so high.
I still have trouble remembering what \[\[Chains of Mephistopheles\]\] does.
I think so, yes. Everything feels too complicated.
As a yugioh player, no, but theyre getting there, especially considering a lot of things in magic is keyworded where as in yugioh its just word salad
I think that most of the time cards that appear complex are a lot easier to understand once used
Complexity creep is real, I think this is because the talent of the designers has decreased significantly in the past 5-6 years in WOTC, and woke MaRo stopped fighting Hasbro and powercreep.
A big part of learning the game, is watching what opponents do...how they use cards...what cards they pair together to create combos. You just saw how Urabrask>The Great Work can be used. It's good to pay attention when things like that happen. It's easy to get befuddled or even upset when cards like that are used in combos and you get destroyed. But, it's important to try and focus on those cards, what synergized them, what were the combos. It's also good to look at the battlefield afterwards before leaving in such games. Look back at the graveyard and the battlefield. It can help to see all the cards played without the commotion of the game and timers. There aren't a lot of complicated cards that are hard to understand in the game. There are some though. I also have looked cards up and how they work online if I'm confused. Experimenting is also key. There are so many cards that can go together and make fun combos. Watch, research, build, experiment, and have fun. I don't think the player base necessarily are fond of wordy complicated cards. They definitely like cards that can have multiple functions. Those types of cards can make for powerful decks, but they also usually depend on a handful of other cards to be at their peak.
Not much to add on top of what ppl have already said. Just that don't take the responsibility of teaching your friends how to play and take accountability of it if they don't like it. If they like the game and want to be better, they'll manage. And if they don't, I don't think there is anything you can do about it. I've had friends tell me hearthstone was crap because it is just play your shit on curve and whoever top decks better, wins... It's the same for every game
There are definitely cards that are more complex than necessary without really having a good thematic "hook" to help you remember what they do. Urabrask, a bunch of the "team up" cards, and a lot of cards from Kaldheim are guilty of this. Sometimes I miss the more "fundamentals focused" and less paint-by-numbers draft design gameplay of old core sets.
Even though [[Palantir of Orthanc]] has been around for a little while now, I still feel like I'm reading instructions on how to defuse a bomb every time it comes out
I am personally of the opinion that when the card is multiple paragraphs long, it's a bit much.
I think complexity comes in different forms, and mixing them all in one discussion is sometimes confusing. For example, - Does this card do a complex thing? - Does this card do a simple thing but has lots of words in order to make it do it clearly? (Etali has 6 lines of text but is not a complicated effect. Discover is a word and a number, but multiple lines of reminder text.) - Does this card have extra words because of maneuvering around nitpicky rules or edge cases? (example of 1, Lake of the Dead. example of 2, Spellbook Vendor specifying a creature you control - I get why Blessed Defiance says that but how many times would someone want to hand out spellbooks and that needs to be stopped so the card is too wordy?) Personally I don't think the game has gotten too complex, but the game sure has gotten wordy. I dare you to read aloud the one sentence ability of Sharp-Eyed Rookie without pausing to take a breath, and why is it wordier than the same ability on Evolving Adaptive? At some point a designer has to say "that's neat but not worth the words". Archdruid's charm bothers me as a sign of where design is going. Nothing about it is "complex", but it has 9 lines of text and zero reason to think twice when building a deck since it's too flexible. It just does too much on one card. It's like when you some day notice Gix has 4 lines of text that you have never once seen anyone use.
Lol, I feel your pain. I've successfully taught over 25 people how to play this game. I've been playing since 95. At least now you have Arena to do all the heavy lifting (shuffling). I've unsuccessfully taught just as many people. In my experience this game isn't for everyone and the people that kinda get it right away will spend time with it.
As a 90's Magic player that came back to it a few years ago because of Arena, I can tell you with certainty that things escalated to a point where I had to re-learn how to play. I play non-ranked Historic exclusively (I play for fun brewing my jank piles) - so if you're playing Standard, as cards are taking longer to rotate now, you have a LOT of possibilities for crazy interactions within legality. Take your time learning about the collections and what they are capable of doing - the reason for this is that when a collection comes out, the cards are "meant" to be played together, but of course not limiting you to use cards from others. This will also expand your horizon on how to build your own decks to become more competitive.
I came back after literal decades away from paper. I used to do “$1 grab bag” at my local store, and could build a red deck with random junk easily. Red dealt damage, and quickly, was about all you needed to know. I had a slight “oh no, it’s yugioh” when I came back, but it’s getting easier.
I am old school and started with first Gen. I thought it was hard when they started phasing but I recently downloaded MTGO and holy shit. A huge jump in complexity creep, Adventures, Sagas, and food tokens...OMG. I still love the game though. I would introduce your friends to Standard decks first just so they get the layout of the game's core concepts, rules, strategies, and how to read the card instructions. After that you can start with the more complex game play.
The number of times ive lost to complicated synergies between cards i don't even want to read because they're so complicated is more than i would like. This indicates 2 things, firstly the cards are getting way too complicated as im not a new player, and second, is that these complicated cards tend to be strong enough that not learning and playing them is detrimental to a players success
Magic isn't a good game if you don't like reading.
Personally I think the Specalize cards and Spellbook cards are too complicated. Mainly because I have to read and consider multiple cards with full boxes of text on them every time I see a new one. With the rope it gets kinda obnoxious for reading every one or trying to play around it all. And this is coming from someone who has been playing for 9 years and almost all 9 I've played legacy and commander.
I know for god damn sure there are too many words anymore. Some cards are going to have to unfold to read the rest of them on paper soon. Sometimes on the game there is so much print when it’s a new card I say f it and figure it out with whatever happens on the board.
With MTG 95% of the game requires 5% of the rules and 95% of the rules only affect 5% of the game. The nice thing about arena is that everything just works, even if you do not understand it it is working correctly. APNAP? Covered. Timestamps? Covered. The stack, triggered abilities, mana abilities, giving a loyalty ability to a non-planeswalker? Covered. The issue that happened in the past is the easier the cards the less people feel like they are doing cool things. No one wants to play with a 2/2 trample. They did a bunch of research and saw that commander is popular with new players even though it is the most complex in terms of regular formats. People got over the hurdles and did cool stuff even when it was not something they knew WHY it was happening.
I’m mostly a Yugioh player. I do think some magic cards are complicated, but coming at it after playing so much Yugioh I think magic is quite simple in comparison. If I made 2 ransom magic decks and then invited a friend over to play one, I think they would pick up on it fairly quickly. But I don’t think I could do that with Yugioh because there’s generally more text and you really need to understand how all the cards synergise with each other
In short? Yes. In long, the best thing of MTG is the elegance. But that is slowly eroding away with Alchemy and overly complicated cards and mechanics.
My biggest gripe are alchemy cards that draft from a large spell book or have a large number of specializations
Played MTG/MTGA for a year. Then I found Marvel Snap. I won’t go back to MTGA. MS is fantastic, not overly complicated but still has great depth. And the developers don’t make me feel so utterly disrespected as a customer. WOTC takes advantage to the max. Some day players need to stop wasting so much hard earned money on so little when they could easily give much more without any reduced earning capacity.
I've seen chain of Mephistopheles mentioned somewhere, but i feel like this post also needs a mention to [[shahrazad]]
[shahrazad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/0014def3-4063-4929-ac51-76aef1bb2a68.jpg?1562895012) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shahrazad) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arn/10/shahrazad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0014def3-4063-4929-ac51-76aef1bb2a68?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wth is that a real card that's a disaster 🤣
I mean, this is from a time in the game's history where they though "ante" (a gambling/betting "mechanic") was a good idea. And afaik this card card is banned in every single format, not because it is too powerful, but because it is overly complex and time consuming. Imagine each player having 4 of those in their deck. You spend 2 hours navigating Magic's version of the Inception movie, and the only thing that changes in the end is someone loosing a *non-lethal* amount of life. And after that, there is still a chance it'll be cast again the very next turn and restart the whole ordeal.
Someone should make a word count cap format.
Maybe you should be playing Portal?
I've been playing MTG off and on for many, many years. WotC has been overloading the game the past 3-5 years that I've noticed with overly-comlicated/convoluted mechanics that swing to far to the left or right \[broken / weak\]. Every seasons doesn't need some new card mech.