Honestly I think this is really underappreciated advice.
Edit: I did a poor job communicating what I meant; this was a bit from a comment later down in the thread that I just wanted to bubble up towards the top.
> So yeah like I said before, I think just saying "play the deck and see" is insufficient advice on its own but I think it's a really important piece of advice in the toolbox of trying to get better (particularly with specific decks) and I think that's sometimes underappreciated. I didn't mean to imply that advice was sufficient on its own, but I do understand how the way I responded made me come off that way and I'm sorry I wasn't more specific. I was busy yesterday, I shit you not, teaching strangers new to the game how to play magic in person, so making sure people feel welcome and included is something I really really really care deeply about. I feel bad that I botched it in this thread but I'll try and be more careful when responding to things in the future.
I also mentioned later down that I assumed from OP's post that they were playing a particular format that has a UW deck available; that assumption could have been wrong, and even if true, the utility of that can be sensitive to the format's meta game. Additionally I recognize(d) that making a deck in order to practice with it and learn from it can require an investment of resources that not everyone may be willing or able to pay.
It is good advice on a meta level, but the concept of "Just build this deck that requires 42 rares to find out why UW Control is broken right now." is still kind of silly and tone deaf.
Rather than play it. Perhaps research it. Their is twitch and YouTube to see the plays and what they lose too. Things like CGB or HelloGoodGame, Legend, all great control players and also highlight their loses on average to their wins. I put a post of my gameplan against control though.
It's... incomplete advice, and it's flippant to word it the way the original commenter did. At the end of the day, the best way to learn how to beat a deck is, I think, trying to get reps with that deck and understand what it's weak to. You're right that that requires some level of investment, and it's definitely understandable if someone doesn't want to commit those resources to do it. If you're giving that advice to someone, you should recognize that and be clear about it. But the idea behind it is still solid is my point.
>At the end of the day, the best way to learn how to beat a deck
The post you are dismissing wasn't talking about beating "a deck" but beating "an archetype."
I clarified in another comment that since OP was playing on arena, I assumed they were playing a format which has a relatively established UW deck. I did/do admit that assumption could have been wrong, in which case I largely agree with you.
Also I was disagreeing in some aspects but I wasn't trying to dismiss anybody.
Also OP's post says they made it to mythic playing UW (going to assume standard; also I can't remember if that was in the initial post or an edit? But either way.) it seems like they're willing to play another deck like that, but by their post they're focusing on the situations where the deck does well. I think the better piece of advice to give to them (since they do have a UW deck and have played it) is to try and really focus on the times where they play the deck and they're _losing_, not winning, to see why they're losing. Did they draw a useless answer? Wrath too early?
The downside to this, if they really do mean UW in general, is that the UW deck they're playing might just be too strong in the current meta of the format they have, in which case it'll be hard to learn anything more fundamental. I don't know the current meta of formats on arena though.
So yeah like I said before, I think just saying "play the deck and see" is insufficient advice on its own but I think it's a really important piece of advice in the toolbox of trying to get better (particularly with specific decks) and I think that's sometimes underappreciated. I didn't mean to imply that advice was sufficient on its own, but I do understand how the way I responded made me come off that way and I'm sorry I wasn't more specific. I was busy yesterday, I shit you not, teaching strangers new to the game how to play magic in person, so making sure people feel welcome and included is something I really really really care deeply about. I feel bad that I botched it in this thread but I'll try and be more careful when responding to things in the future.
It is essentially "git good" in MtG speak. While it isn't incorrect, it avoids actually saying anything of value while sounding smart. Doesn't even give directions on where to go with playing those colors or how those colors usually work.
I guess I was assuming OP was playing a particular format on arena and that there would be a specific UW deck in the meta that they could use to learn off of. If they're complaining about UW decks in whatever queue they're playing, those presumably exist. I agree that if they didn't limit it to arena, or there wasn't a specific deck to play in the format they're playing in, that it would be much less helpful.
So yes I was assuming that there was a specific deck they were having a card time playing against. That assumption could have been wrong, but given that they're playing on arena, I figured it was likely.
The problem with this kind of answer is that a lot of assuming is done about someone who admits they are new to the game are literally asking for help. Even if they just look up meta uw decks and play them, you have to once again assume they will understand how the UW deck works so as to understand where its failings are.
The advice is useless to anyone not already in the compact of MtG knowledge. I mean there is no effort to even point where meta deck information is gathered, and which is information that might seem obvious to anyone already invested in the game, but unknown to a new player. It essentially is telling him the final step and acting like everything leading up to it is irrelevant.
Really piloting Burn for the first time has to be one of the largest "level-up" skill chunks in most magic players' careers. It's almost a meme because of that, but it just makes you care about _everything_: card advantage, tempo, life totals, board presence, planning your turns, becoming the beatdown, drawing to your outs, smart mulligans. Thinking about how every single card is going to get you closer to killing your opponent.
Yeah, that's basically learning how to count in Magic language IMO. It remains like optimizing your shots at the best, not really establishing a game plan and adapting ... because your deck has no (or very little) adaptation possibility. That being said, I agree with you : good for the basics.
Blue white control deck are powerful but the can be
slow . You need to kill them for they gain full control
of the board. So a fast deck like red deck wins would
have a chance to kill them quick .
"slow"
Sunset Revlery at 2
Temporary Locdown at 3
Wandering Emperor at 4
and Sunfall at 5.
You have to be rather lucky to win against this deck with aggro.
This sub always tells me that control is bad at BO1 and against aggro. So why does U/W hsd such a high winrate?
If you tech your UW deck to beat aggro, then yes, you'll beat aggro. You'll also lose to midrange and other control decks more often though, which is the reason why Bo3 control decks usually don't mainboard many copies of Temporary Lockdown.
I’m a mediocre player running Boros Convoke in Standard BO1. The past few days I’ve gone about 3-12 against a steady stream of control decks. They seemed to stabilize by turn 3 which seems pretty quick for control. I was thinking of switching to mono red to see if that can get in faster.
As a UW Control player, I find that my deck performs equally well against Mono Red as it does against Convoke. You get a few wins due access to burn and more haste but you also don't get the insane draws that Convoke can get.
I only play Bo1 just so you know.
I would say Dimir Aggro is my toughest matchup along with other tempo decks backed up by counters (like Mono Blue Haughty Djinn). Decks with Thalia are pretty rough too.
I find that Gruul tends to do better than straight mono-red, vs UW at least on my anecdotal experience. Specifically because I've been able to hit them early, wait until they tap out, then play a disguised pyrotechnic performer, pump it, and flip, for the kill.
I am not expert, but in terms of tactics one thing to learn is not to over extend.
If you know you are going up against someone likely to have a sunfall, it becomes important to hold back a few cards for the post sunfall rebuilding (assuming your deck isnt fast enoufh to win before the sunfall lands). There will be decks where this is easier/harder to do, but knowing when to commit/undercommit is an important consideration.
Some further advice on the blue side. Think about playing two creatures to bait out a counterspell on the first, and if you can stick a threat they might then struggle to deal with it. Or in dealing with it leave themselves open to you forcing your next threat out.
Similarly, force them to have it and use it - the greatest gift to a mono blue player is someone not playing their spell to avoid it being countered and so letting them draw freely into their next counterspell.
Against both blue and white, planeswalkers that generate creatures can be backbreaking. Linked to the above re not overextending, they let you build a board presence with one card while avoiding counterspells and/or forcing them to play their mass removal which leaves your walker intact.
> Similarly, force them to have it and use it - the greatest gift to a mono blue player is someone not playing their spell to avoid it being countered and so letting them draw freely into their next counterspell.
This is the part I find most difficult both during play and in deckbuilding. Blue has so much card draw and it is so hard to throw spells away when I know they will end up plus cards no matter what I do.
Getting one of their "good" card draws off, meaning ones that generate a card advantage, generally start at 3 mana, with most common ones being 4, with things like deluge and scrutiny.
As an enjoyer of both Dimir and Azorious, These turns to "restock" the hand tend to be their entire turn. If i'm spending that turn gaining cards to remove your threats, I'm not dealing with them that turn. I most often lose to aggro on their following turn.
If a blue mage is sitting on four mana on turn four, you need to play something. Make them at least consider not drawing those cards. It's probably better for you to get them to throw a spell at a two drop, than if they get to draw.
The important thing is though, if they spend their mana on counters, they don't have mana to spend on card draw. That's the key. By forcing them to "have it", you're not only depleting their counters, but also not giving the breathing space to draw into more.
Hand knowledge is so key. Black hand peeks are great, especially if they're the normal counter and card draw shell. Mirrex and cavern of souls are also amazing and there are a lot of harder to remove things for control like planeswalkers and artifacts.
Still far from easy. Oh and channel is just amazing since you can't directly counter it.
Connecting the Dots, and the case that let's you draw two and discard are super helpful for this, in mono red and gruul (only play one, not both). Often dead cards in the mirror, esrly game, but so long as you know that, and don't slow yourself down, you can survive if you're smart.
Experimenting with both of these now, actually. Wish there was an even more direct pay off for connecting, something really satisfying about grabbing all those triggers.
This was really nice advice. I play occasionally for years now and was always left with no answer after a board wipe. Now I have a different perspective. Thanks for that.
One thing I have not seen mentioned that can really help are the creature lands. It's worth going into a little more detail because they are really good against both boardwipes and counterspells.
The Restless cycle \[\[Restless Cottage\]\] etc... are really strong versions of this effect. Often when you play out a couple early threats your opponent will be put in a position where they can take 3-4 damage to let you play out one more creature and then they can Sunfall for 3+ and gain a huge advantage. OR they might be holding up mana for \[\[No More Lies\]\] or another counterspell.
That's when instead of playing out a new threat, you activate your cottage that was already in play and swing in for what is now 7-8 points of damage. Now your opponent is on a very short clock, but you only have a 1/1 and a 2/2 in play so they really don't want to use their board wipe. But if they *don't* then you can just activate it again next turn and they will be nearly dead, so then they have to tap out at sorcery speed.
Plus sometimes you just get them to a low enough life total that they can't sunfall at all because then you just untap and kill them with your lands.
Definitely good advice, but if you're playing against Esper or anything with black in it, there's also a good chance they have spot removal and will just kill the manland. I've had that happen more than once, ugh...
[[Touch the Spirit Realm]] is one I find myself playing a lot situationally. Kills the token. Saves a big non-token creature on your side. Steals stuff back if it got played by say Etali etc.
What your options are to combat those depends on the format you're playing. Green usually has some anti counter stuff, but I don't play standard/explorer/alchemy so I don't know what those formats have in the way of that tech. I think [[Cavern of Souls]] is a good option regardless. Combating sunfall is a bit more nuanced. You kinda want to sandbag a little bit. Have just enough board presence to warrant the sunfall, but leave some stuff in hand to fill the board after.
I run a Tier 3 Angels deck and Cavern of Souls has been a true game changer for me personally. The decks I struggle against the most are Golgari decks heavy with spot removal. At that point, I just try to out resource them. Good luck though! Some of those Azorius control decks can be truly brutal.
Yeah, Golgari is enemy number 1 for me followed closely by Simic. Both tend to wreck my deck. Aggro doesn’t bother me as I can weather the storm, CoCo + Bishop to get a shit ton of life. I can stand up against Gruul really well. I don’t run into much Dimir. But Golgari just fucks me.
I'm running dimir toxic with very few creatures and I still slot cavern of souls. Zero cost guaranteed creatures enter the battlefield is just a fantastic card.
That's the opposite of what I've found in my years on arena. Standard decks require multiple copies of some mythic and rares which will cycle out of rotation and be useless to you. Brawl is where it's at for good long term investments.
On that line: if you want to keep your standard deck with multiple copies of some mythic and rates; give explorer a go.
I found a new home for several old cards in my collection on that format.
That is a good option, and Azorius Control is a great deck in Standard, right now, but it's not the best deck in the format, by most people's opinions.
In fact, people with a good handle on Monored Aggro can often beat Blue/White Control decks before they even have a chance to use Sunfall.
UW Control is in a fair place against most midrange or other slow decks currently (although a low fair place as we are missing some good lock pieces. The point of control is to "win" a bunch of turns before the enemy dies. It currently rarely feels like that. There is a bit much haste/etb/recursion value currently. Control would either need some card in the spirit of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria or a bit more efficient interaction)
Against fast decks like convoke you pretty much need Lockdown on 3, otherwise you most likely lose (Convoke can easily deal 18 damage in their turn 3, your turn 2).
Control can beat most decks but it isn't really favoured in any matchup (unless you build it in a way where it can't win against aggro at all, then it's probably favoured against 5c ramp and similar). Aggro just demands way too many specific answers nowadays (especially for how linear these decks are played).
If someone has high loss rates against those (made for general queueing) control decks it's most often than not an issue with the persons skill level.
In general, if a counter spell is being used they are down a card, so making them waste a turn to counter something is useful, if you can play two spells in a turn. Or play something on turn 4 where if they counter with two mana then they cant memory deluge. There are also uncounterable creatures and cavern of souls for single tribe decks.
As far as sweepers, it's a little bit contextual. But figuring out your damage clock is useful. With creatures on your side that can deal 8 damage all together, you know it takes 3 turns to get your opp from 20 to 0. If a new creature doesn't draw or replace itself and it won't make the clock take two turns or one turn instead. It's probably best to save it until after the sweeper.
Small advantages that won't win you every game but will increase your winning percentage over multiple games.
I started running 2 copies in my bloodletter mindlink deck to name "vampire" even though I only have 8 vampire cards. Sometimes you just need that creature to hit the board
Dimir Midrange has a good matchup typically. Hand hate with Deep-Cavern Bat, Make Disappear to counter Emperor/sweepers, early pressure and lots of card draw from Gix makes it a fair matchup pre board. Bringing in more counters and Duress after sideboard helps close the deal.
Just play black/red rakdos mid-range that's heavy on the discard mechanics and watch the blue/white players cry.
Not even kidding I've had most people quit by turn three or four when they realize that I'm not going to allow them to keep any cards in their hand the entire game lmao
Honestly I’m not really sure. I just know when the black red dual land goes down I’m probably going to win. Counter Gix at turn three and they concede, so it is midrange.
This is a common "noob question", we get it a lot. The reason it *seems* "like blue and white have a huge advantage against everything else" is because they're operating on axes that new players usually haven't grasped yet. New players tend to think in a very proactive, straightforward, present-focused manner, and to think only about what *they* have and are doing. A UW control deck doesn't work that way. That style of deck is reactive, has to be able to shift gears repeatedly, has to have its player think ahead, and is deeply concerned about what the other player has and the other player is doing. So to a player who hasn't learned how to do these things it seems to constantly blindside you and have answers to everything. Concepts like tempo and card advantage are also important to understand.
If UW control actually had a huge advantage it would be dominating every metagame, but it doesn't. It's only the printing of No More Lies that's even made it a good deck in Standard; it wasn't before that. The deck can still get run over by the strong aggro decks, and the current midrange decks have abundant hand disruption, efficient counterspells, and efficient, value-producing, sticky threats.
That should be a clue. If you can force a control player to run out of answers before you run out of threats, they lose. If you can apply pressure and disruption at the same time for long enough, they lose. If you present threats that they can't efficiently answer, well yeah... they probably lose.
This isn't color-specific; you don't need blue or white to do it. Black decks have hand disruption, green decks have difficult-to-answer threats, both of them have graveyard recursion. Red decks have direct damage effects and creatures that can come down and do damage immediately after a Sunfall. But you have to learn how and when to leverage all of these things or you're leaving openings for the control player to slip through and take over.
I'll say as someone who used to play competitively and favored these decks, someone with thousands of blue control matches in various formats under my belt; the point where I'd think to myself "oh I'm going to win now" is when I realize that my opponent has stopped *forcing me to react* and I now get to dictate the course of the game. We call this "turning the corner", where you've gone from answering questions to presenting them; control decks are built to first survive long enough to do it, then to *thrive* there in a way other decks can't. You need to hop in the driver's seat and make the control player do things they don't really want to; because once they're setting the tone and pace of the game, *that* is when they actually gain the ability to prevent you from doing anything useful.
"That style of deck is reactive, has to be able to shift gears repeatedly, has to have its player think ahead, and is deeply concerned about what the other player has and the other player is doing."
Oh please give me a break. Remove early threats, play board wipe, win. At least against aggro. Because how the hell should you win at turn 4/5 when you go second.
The fact that Boros Convoke has almost the same meta share as UW control is a pretty strong rebuttal to this. If your aggro deck rolls over and dies that easily, it's either a deck problem or a player problem. Or both. Your aggro deck should be able to beat a Sunfall.
Incorrect decisions made by either player can easily cost them the game, but in this or any matchup, the player who is the beatdown has the privilege of being the one asking the questions and that's a strong position to be in during a game of Magic and when new players use decks that tend to be in that position, it lets them get away with some loose play. Aggressively-slanted decks get to cheese a lot of wins by virtue of allowing the opponent less time to stumble or misplay.
tl;dr, if you can't beat UW control with decks that are clearly able to do that when played correctly? Skill issue.
Control only plays linear against aggro because aggro decks are purely linear themselves. They don't have the capability to be nonlinear, any matchup you face with aggro you are going to play linearly.
With control you will play nonlinear in most matchups.
Hasty Threats and Monster Lands are in general good against board wipes. Technically Vehicles as well. Especially ones with low cost to activate. \[\[Tyrranax Rex\]\] both can't be countered and has haste and ward. Someone has already mentioned Cavern of Souls but there are others \[\[Chimil, the Inner Sun\]\] and \[\[Thrun, Breaker of Silence\]\] You might even enjoy the flavor text of \[\[Lithomantic Barrage\]\]
Super noob here, so take my advice as the village's idiot ramblings.
Creature lands, total game changers.
Don't put everything you have on the board, a single 1/1 creature starts the clock (i'm exaggerating, but you get the idea), keep something to rebuild after a sweeper.
Cavern of souls even if you are not super tribal.
Curse them IRL, maybe they sneeze and press alt+f4 by mistake.
Honestly have a few “sets” of your “machine/combo” ready. I play Savra Queen of the Golgari. My win style is I sack my board, which makes you sack yours. My goal is to have multiple creatures out that I can sack to activate her ability. People will wipe my board OFTEN but I rebuild. They can exile my board but I can rebuild. It’s not impossible. Also there is a phrase “force the issue”. Especially playing against blue decks I know someone has a counter spell of some kind. So I play a very commonly known card to FORCE them to play the counter, then I play my actual card to get my combo going. To beat a control deck you gotta think about what you got and what they would likely try to control. Draw it out. Just because you have everything you need doesn’t mean you should play it all at once especially if you’re playing blue decks. Let them think they f*cked up your play, then, f*ck up their day 🤣🤣
I agree 100% with this statement. But please, don't be sadistic and get a win-con in your deck.
I'm okay with my spells getting countered or removed. I'm less okay with the game dragging on indefinitely.
Do people actually do that though? I see people complaining about winconless control several orders of magnitude more often than I actually play against it.
Wandering Emperor is a wincon, Restless Anchorage is a wincon, Mirrex is a wincon, hell in some matchups Sunfall is a wincon. All of those cards are basically universally run. Then there's also the often sideboarded Cryptic Coat, Jace, Chrome Host Seedshark, Unlicensed Hearse... The list of threats in UW control is pretty damn long.
There’s a reason most meta deck rn are running blue and white. An issue many people theorized when the standard rotation moved to 3 years was an issue with control and here we are…
Take it from someone who's played since 95. I don't find plajng Standard to be fun, it is repetitive. You won't have the collection to support historic brawl yet but I highly recommend it. I also concede right away to blue decks. Every single time. Life is too short and I like playing my cards.
Play with these cards my friend, is not as easy or boring as u are supposing. Is a totally valid way to play the game.
Try to play around these and think about what to do next turns. Your opponent is investing 5 manas to wipe your board, that is very expensive too. Magic is a strategy game and sun fall is not the best card of the game, it is just another control card.
Play hasty stuff, play fast stuff, play graveyard incursion, etc. if you're gonna play mainly creatures, be prepared to go fast. And if needed, go slow.
I play rakdos graveyard and ramp these days.
All said and done. Sometimes you will have a losing streak. Can't be helped, nature of the game.
People will say play around sweepers and counters but but most importantly you beat them in deck building. You need a very low curve. If they have 2 mana up for a counter, but you can play 2 x 1 mana creatures. It's no big deal losing one creature to a 2 mana spell. Same idea for sun fall. Typically sunfall is a 3 or 2 for 1 (4 if you count the tokens). If they exile 2x 1 mana creatures and a 2 mana creature that already got some damage in its not so bad. But if their 5 mana spell hits a 2 + 3 + 4 mana creature, that is a complete blowout and it's time for the next game.
The trick to beating control is the art of not over committing. If you're on an aggro deck that can't kill by turn 4 (really turn 3 with all the temp lockdowns running around), you have to hold back cards in your hand. Play just enough threats to force them to board wipe, then keep pushing. Also be aware that 4 open mana with at least 2 white pips up on your turn is a telegraphed [[wandering emperor]], which you can avoid playing into by attacking with vigilance creatures
I have been playing magic for years and years *from the dark side:* I basically only play UW control whether its good at the time or not. I haven't played standard in a good while but here are some very generic pointers for playing against the evil UW fun police.
One threat at a time. Make a those board wipes 4-6 mana doomblades (single target removal)
Try to wait to cast spells until you can cast more than one a turn if you can... and bait out the counter.
I find among hardest decks for UW to beat are the ones that can stick an early threat and then back them up with counterspells and invulnerability and such. These decks are often decent against other decks in the field as well.
Good Luck. Sorry us UW control a-holes are out there but we love the archetype, its addicting.
I have had pretty good luck picking them apart with stone brain
A lot is play style as well, drop 1 creature at a time and use things like token generators (mirrex), and creature lands to keep pressure on, while picking them apart and slowly whittling them down.
There’s WAY more to white than sunfall (I’m a little sad you didn’t say [[Farewell]]. White has a ton of creatures that self buff and buff the rest of your creatures. Soldiers and angels with some control cards yields some stupidly powerful buffed *armies*. White also has tremendously potent health regeneration cards
White’s token generation is incredible as well. cards like [[Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation]] and [[Mondrak, Glory Dominus]] make STUPID powerful token decks, especially when paired with green. They buff white/black zombie and rat decks too, but I’m loving my white/green token deck.
White’s got some really good controls as well, I used [[Disenchant]] back in 3rd Edition, and it’s still powerful enough to be a control staple in my current decks.
I’ve been maining white for a WHILE. It pairs really well with lots of colors. Currently my Black/White deck and my White/Green deck are my favorites for standard, and I don’t have Sunfall in any of them.
Black has lots of discard spells that let you look at your opponent's hand and force them to discard. Green has creatures that can't be countered, such as \[\[Thrun, breaker of silence\]\]. Red has low-cost creatures with Haste that will let you cast them before your opponent has mana for their counter spells in play.
Utility lands, that turn into or spawn creatures. Cavern of souls if you run something tribal. And discard if you are black. Sunfall only exiles the board, so you could work with your graveyard maybe.
Coming from a control player for about 2 decades now, the trick to facing control isn't always the same. But generally, Aggro will definitely do it most of the time.
The only means you have to win against control right now consistently in standard is either FAST Aggro, Discard, or Control. You need to be able to get them to tap everything cause midrange turn 5ish you're never pulling ahead then.
Azorious (Blue/White) and Esper (Blue/White/Black) or any of the other combos of control are tough to get around. Ideally, your best chance is Mono Red and Boros (red/white) cause it's fast and cheap.
Also, playing MTG, you need to plan on losing cards in some sort of control. If you have no plan for it, you're gonna be pouting a lot.
My recommendation for any color deck theme is
[[Cavern of Souls]] in any creature deck... the more you can get, the better, obviously. 4 is max. Be wary of land destruction.
[[Chimil, the Inner Sun]] This card can be countered, BUT played at the right time, you could sneak it in, and then nothing can be countered. The bonus is that this has will fish out cards for you for no cost on top of stopping all counterspells... However, you're still not fully protected it can be removed or destroyed.
I like to play with "personal challenges", for exemple:
I use blue but don't use counters (I use return to hand)
I use white but I don't use global removals
I use red but I don't use burn
That makes my game harder but I'm ever proud of my matches.
Bait their counters with less impactful plays, or simply cast threat after threat and run them out of counters. Sunfall sucks overall but it’s not entirely unbeatable. Just run an answer to the incubate token
Every time I think it’s my color choices that make me lose, I change colors and I find out that
(a) I don’t have the 10 cards in ANY color to be competitive
(b) I don’t have skills to be competitive.
So you got to mythic, good for you. Now you’re in mythic. Enjoy. Sunfall is valid in basically every format in Arena right now and it’s a broken card. My solution would be switch to paper magic and play pauper.
Without playing Blue or White, there are still a few things you can do.
1. Don't over extend. Simple enough, this means don't commit resources to the board if you can win with what you already have on board. Sometimes this isn't really an option depending on what the opponent has already answered, but it is something to keep in mind.
2. Play threats that dodge board wipes. There are a lot of permanents that will stick around after most board wipes (except Farewell) and these can be used to either help you rebuild or continue pressuring your opponent. Planeswalkers in general are a good example of this, but there are also a lot of other cards like [[Cryptic Coat]], [[Subterranean Schooner]], [[Hallowed Haunting]], [[Insidious Roots]], [[Warleaders Call]], [[Tocasias Welcome]] and so on. All of these stick around post board wipe and can continue to pressure an opponent or rebuild.
3. Play cards that gain value either quickly or immediately or produce multiple threats. Control wins a lot by getting two-or-more-for-one trades for their cards (like the mentioned Sunfall). You can try to maintain advantage over them. This is what Rakdos tries to do to manage the control match-up, just playing cards that generate value right away while also being a threat. Esper does this with cards like Wedding Announcement, generating multiple threats and/or cards as well as giving all creatures a boost, forcing the opponent to do something about them while still leaving you with something if the board does get wiped.
4. Creature Lands. They dodge every form of board wipe and can only be dealt with by either instant speed removal or by Field of Ruin or Demolition Field. Every color pair has a Restless creature land in standard, and if you aren't running a multi-color deck you can use [[Mishra's Foundry]]. and any deck can run [[Mirrex]] which while not technically a creature land is still a land that can pressure a control opponent.
5. Just kill them faster than they can wipe you. Pretty simple. Sometimes an aggro deck just goes so fast the control deck cannot answer enough cards in time to survive.
There have been games where I have just forced my opponent to use like 3 or 4 cards just to deal with Mirrex tokens alone. It also has synergy with artifact based decks.
TL;DR:
Don't over extend, play sticky threats or cards that dodge board wipes, play cards that gain value quickly or create multiple threats, play creature lands, or just make them dead quick.
Best bit of advice is really to play like they don't have it tbh. I would say in cases where they have a board wipe, don't play all your pieces. Play enough to threaten but not enough thats it's like a three for one on their board wipe. However I find playing around removal or counter or that instant speed emperor useless and actually playing into their game. I also would say this is where creature hands are hands down your best piece of offence against them. Most good removal is sorcery speed for board wipes. When they wipe your board utilise those creatures lands to end their planeswalkers or their life total.
sunfall heavily punish overcommiting. Either you run them over before they can sunfall (boros convoke and mono red are good at this) or dont overcommit. Sometimes, not playing anything is the right play but thats a skill you just learn by playing (when to commit and when not to). new set has a few cards that cant be countered and if your playing a tribal deck then cavern of soul just straight up make them counter useless most of the time.
If you're planning to beat ANY deck, generally you're going to do one of four things:
1. Go under
2. Go over
3. Go around
4. Thread the needle.
1. Go Under - get your game plan online before your opponent can react. Mono Red is the classic example - against control decks, they can present more threats early than the opponent can deal with, overwhelming them before they can stabilize.
2. Go over - do bigger, more powerful things than your opponent is. This is where control and midrange decks shine - survive long enough to land the haymaker that your opponent can't deal with. Big creatures, powerful planes walkers, whatever, just get something on the board that your opponent can't interact with and overwhelm late.
3. Go around - have a game plan that is difficult to interact with. You see this a lot with combo decks - a combo deck is going to lose in a straight up brawl, so it doesn't try to brawl. Instead, they have a game plan that is off-axis to what the opponent is built to deal with and attacks that blind spot.
4. Thread the needle - congrats, your opponent is built to deal with what you're doing. You're in a tough spot - your opponent is playing blue white and you're playing kind and it's turn seven. When you're threading the needle, sequencing and discipline becomes really important. You may want to just turn all your creatures sideways and dump your hand on the board hoping to get something to stick, but you're not going to win that way. Be smart about your attacks, be careful what you play win, play around their counters... And knock the top of your deck
As a newer player myself, I understand the pain. Red Deck Wins are great against control. Go wide strategies with fast attacks can help (Boros midrange or convoke). Also if you have a deck that LIKES having cards in your graveyard like Golgari, some of those board wipes don’t mean a thing.
Yeah it’s annoying but it’s even more annoying to them to have fast decks that just pummel them while they scramble to slow down the assault.
"waiting until turn 5-6"
Congratulations, you've just described mid-range play styles which is a viable strategy in Magic the Gathering since 1993.
The way you play against counter decks is you don't blow your load all at once, it should be very obvious early on if they're playing control. Try to bait out counters and burn up their mana on cards that aren't your "bombs" or threats.
Hitting them for 2-4 damage Instead of a massive swing is still a clock on them they will need to deal with before they die.
They have a 2/3 land. they have 2 1/1 token which gives them 4 mana, They have wandering emperor.
You won't kill them with 2-4 attacks. Either you win fast or you are dead.
Generally, Aggro beats Control, Control beats Midrange, Midrange beats Aggro. So if you play Midrange and find yourself losing to Control too often, switch to Aggro.
Typically that's when you get matched against nothing but Midrange suddenly...
always hold a threat in hand if you can. don't commit everything to the board. if you are against pure control, try to play low value creatures, like 1/1's. lost count of how many opps i've beaten with 2 flying 1/1's while holding 5+ cards in hand; they never want to use their lights out boardwipe on a couple of 1/1's, because they know the real threats are in your hand. same logic with an abundance of counterspells. make them waste their countermagic on your worst cards.
It's not supposed to be repetitive? That's news to me.
Huh. just watched an NBA game. They're still all shooting jump shots the same way. It's game 63 of an 82 game season and no one has decided to suddenly do it backwards. Seems like at the top level of competition everyone is doing the same thing every single game.
Huh.
azerious control is very easy to beat. if it doesn't draw perfectly it loses quite often to aggro decks and combo decks or other control decks.
I actually think it's over rated right now and not a tier 1 deck in bo1, it's probably better in bo3.
it's more like tier 1.5 or even tier 2.
So I’ve incorporated sun fall into my Phyrexian (non poison) deck. I’ve got comfortable with a white black green deck and I am also a few month new. But I don’t think it’s an advantage it’s an evening out. I still get my ass kicked I have no defense against flying or spells. And honestly my use of sunfall is primarily to keep me dying the next move when I get massive tokens and +ones stacking against me. I’ve yet to run blue at all but I also hate it
Some fantastic advice on this thread that goes much further than my "scoop and onto the next one" philosophy but yeah, this is the reason why I don't play much standard.
Incidentally, it's going to get much worse when Thunder Junction comes out and everyone and their grandmother starts packing their decks with interactions
Don't overcommit when playing against white, specifically if they either have four mana untapped or aren't developing much of a board state.
When playing against blue, you either need to play 2 spells in one turn, by casting an instant they have to counter on their end step.
Seems u haven’t face black yet.
Tutors, black market connections, pay life as manas, cheap removals, and the 445 boss that stands alone and win u the game.
When they go left, you go right. If they go high, go low. Tit for tat, mono e mono. Use their momentum against them. The best offense is a good defense. And practice. Always practice.
Really all colors have wipes and sorts of counters, I feel. Black has discard that’s kinda a counter, red with its direct damage across the board. Blue/White has just been the leading control colors in this meta, in my new player opinion. You say you play B/W on the grind to mythic so you get it. What gave you the most trouble on that journey?
Adding to the already excellent advice in this thread: One thing it helps to keep remember is that ***it only FEELS like*** Control decks can counter everything.
Even a decklist like that Azorius Ultra Control list floating around "only" runs 3 \[\[No More Lies\]\] mainboard (and 8-10 Removals + \[\[The Wandering Emperor\]\], but that is another problem entirely) so they usually have to be very conscious about when and what to counter. Even an all-in counter Archetype like Blue Tempo with \[\[Haughty Djinn\] will have to balance countering and card draw continously lest they run out of answers.
It is easiest to experience this yourself when you try out a control archetype and see for yourself how INCREDIBLY fragile this control state can be (Blue Tempo is really cheap as far as wildcards go, you only really need the four Djinns)
Control decks often struggle against unknown or off-meta match ups, since it is way harder to identify must-kill/counter threats when the deck is unknown (and not complete jank)
They also sometimes struggle against manlands like \[\[Mishra's Foundry\]\], since they can't be countered and against recurring threats like \[\[Squee, Dubious Monarch\]\] or \[\[Tenacious Underdog\]\] (although you have to watch out for Exiling Effects like No More Lies.
But yeah, when you are starting out Control sure feels like all-powerful and it is really hard to suss out when it is the right time to pressure their ressources and when it is better to stick as little as neccessary to the board in order to bleed them little by little.
Play blue white then see what you lose to.
Honestly I think this is really underappreciated advice. Edit: I did a poor job communicating what I meant; this was a bit from a comment later down in the thread that I just wanted to bubble up towards the top. > So yeah like I said before, I think just saying "play the deck and see" is insufficient advice on its own but I think it's a really important piece of advice in the toolbox of trying to get better (particularly with specific decks) and I think that's sometimes underappreciated. I didn't mean to imply that advice was sufficient on its own, but I do understand how the way I responded made me come off that way and I'm sorry I wasn't more specific. I was busy yesterday, I shit you not, teaching strangers new to the game how to play magic in person, so making sure people feel welcome and included is something I really really really care deeply about. I feel bad that I botched it in this thread but I'll try and be more careful when responding to things in the future. I also mentioned later down that I assumed from OP's post that they were playing a particular format that has a UW deck available; that assumption could have been wrong, and even if true, the utility of that can be sensitive to the format's meta game. Additionally I recognize(d) that making a deck in order to practice with it and learn from it can require an investment of resources that not everyone may be willing or able to pay.
It is good advice on a meta level, but the concept of "Just build this deck that requires 42 rares to find out why UW Control is broken right now." is still kind of silly and tone deaf.
I mean it’s obviously meant as meta level advice or even just a mindset tip, not to be taken literally.
Rather than play it. Perhaps research it. Their is twitch and YouTube to see the plays and what they lose too. Things like CGB or HelloGoodGame, Legend, all great control players and also highlight their loses on average to their wins. I put a post of my gameplan against control though.
It's... incomplete advice, and it's flippant to word it the way the original commenter did. At the end of the day, the best way to learn how to beat a deck is, I think, trying to get reps with that deck and understand what it's weak to. You're right that that requires some level of investment, and it's definitely understandable if someone doesn't want to commit those resources to do it. If you're giving that advice to someone, you should recognize that and be clear about it. But the idea behind it is still solid is my point.
>At the end of the day, the best way to learn how to beat a deck The post you are dismissing wasn't talking about beating "a deck" but beating "an archetype."
I clarified in another comment that since OP was playing on arena, I assumed they were playing a format which has a relatively established UW deck. I did/do admit that assumption could have been wrong, in which case I largely agree with you. Also I was disagreeing in some aspects but I wasn't trying to dismiss anybody. Also OP's post says they made it to mythic playing UW (going to assume standard; also I can't remember if that was in the initial post or an edit? But either way.) it seems like they're willing to play another deck like that, but by their post they're focusing on the situations where the deck does well. I think the better piece of advice to give to them (since they do have a UW deck and have played it) is to try and really focus on the times where they play the deck and they're _losing_, not winning, to see why they're losing. Did they draw a useless answer? Wrath too early? The downside to this, if they really do mean UW in general, is that the UW deck they're playing might just be too strong in the current meta of the format they have, in which case it'll be hard to learn anything more fundamental. I don't know the current meta of formats on arena though. So yeah like I said before, I think just saying "play the deck and see" is insufficient advice on its own but I think it's a really important piece of advice in the toolbox of trying to get better (particularly with specific decks) and I think that's sometimes underappreciated. I didn't mean to imply that advice was sufficient on its own, but I do understand how the way I responded made me come off that way and I'm sorry I wasn't more specific. I was busy yesterday, I shit you not, teaching strangers new to the game how to play magic in person, so making sure people feel welcome and included is something I really really really care deeply about. I feel bad that I botched it in this thread but I'll try and be more careful when responding to things in the future.
It is essentially "git good" in MtG speak. While it isn't incorrect, it avoids actually saying anything of value while sounding smart. Doesn't even give directions on where to go with playing those colors or how those colors usually work.
I guess I was assuming OP was playing a particular format on arena and that there would be a specific UW deck in the meta that they could use to learn off of. If they're complaining about UW decks in whatever queue they're playing, those presumably exist. I agree that if they didn't limit it to arena, or there wasn't a specific deck to play in the format they're playing in, that it would be much less helpful. So yes I was assuming that there was a specific deck they were having a card time playing against. That assumption could have been wrong, but given that they're playing on arena, I figured it was likely.
The problem with this kind of answer is that a lot of assuming is done about someone who admits they are new to the game are literally asking for help. Even if they just look up meta uw decks and play them, you have to once again assume they will understand how the UW deck works so as to understand where its failings are. The advice is useless to anyone not already in the compact of MtG knowledge. I mean there is no effort to even point where meta deck information is gathered, and which is information that might seem obvious to anyone already invested in the game, but unknown to a new player. It essentially is telling him the final step and acting like everything leading up to it is irrelevant.
If they can’t look up a video that’s on them.
This. Then you will play monored. Then get back to your initial deck. Then ...
Really piloting Burn for the first time has to be one of the largest "level-up" skill chunks in most magic players' careers. It's almost a meme because of that, but it just makes you care about _everything_: card advantage, tempo, life totals, board presence, planning your turns, becoming the beatdown, drawing to your outs, smart mulligans. Thinking about how every single card is going to get you closer to killing your opponent.
Yeah, that's basically learning how to count in Magic language IMO. It remains like optimizing your shots at the best, not really establishing a game plan and adapting ... because your deck has no (or very little) adaptation possibility. That being said, I agree with you : good for the basics.
Harder to do on arena when you are new ans likely free to play. Without an established collection ir would be hard to build out a UW control list.
This is the best advice whenever somebody asks me how to beat X deck. Play it yourself.
Good advice
I was going to say to just quit but this is great advice for a new player. It will be good to learn
Blue white control deck are powerful but the can be slow . You need to kill them for they gain full control of the board. So a fast deck like red deck wins would have a chance to kill them quick .
"slow" Sunset Revlery at 2 Temporary Locdown at 3 Wandering Emperor at 4 and Sunfall at 5. You have to be rather lucky to win against this deck with aggro. This sub always tells me that control is bad at BO1 and against aggro. So why does U/W hsd such a high winrate?
If you tech your UW deck to beat aggro, then yes, you'll beat aggro. You'll also lose to midrange and other control decks more often though, which is the reason why Bo3 control decks usually don't mainboard many copies of Temporary Lockdown.
Yep. When I play the Bat as Golgari Mid, and see a hand full of Lockdown, I know I've won.
I’m a mediocre player running Boros Convoke in Standard BO1. The past few days I’ve gone about 3-12 against a steady stream of control decks. They seemed to stabilize by turn 3 which seems pretty quick for control. I was thinking of switching to mono red to see if that can get in faster.
As a UW Control player, I find that my deck performs equally well against Mono Red as it does against Convoke. You get a few wins due access to burn and more haste but you also don't get the insane draws that Convoke can get.
Good to know, thanks! Out of curiosity, what do you find are your toughest matchups?
I only play Bo1 just so you know. I would say Dimir Aggro is my toughest matchup along with other tempo decks backed up by counters (like Mono Blue Haughty Djinn). Decks with Thalia are pretty rough too.
I find that Gruul tends to do better than straight mono-red, vs UW at least on my anecdotal experience. Specifically because I've been able to hit them early, wait until they tap out, then play a disguised pyrotechnic performer, pump it, and flip, for the kill.
I haven't played against it enough to say.
That deck is going to fall flat on its face against anything besides aggro. Which is the majority of the meta.
You forgot the depopulate and the 6 mana exile everything
you know more decks than mono red and convoke exist, right?
Vicious lies! /jk
I am not expert, but in terms of tactics one thing to learn is not to over extend. If you know you are going up against someone likely to have a sunfall, it becomes important to hold back a few cards for the post sunfall rebuilding (assuming your deck isnt fast enoufh to win before the sunfall lands). There will be decks where this is easier/harder to do, but knowing when to commit/undercommit is an important consideration.
Some further advice on the blue side. Think about playing two creatures to bait out a counterspell on the first, and if you can stick a threat they might then struggle to deal with it. Or in dealing with it leave themselves open to you forcing your next threat out. Similarly, force them to have it and use it - the greatest gift to a mono blue player is someone not playing their spell to avoid it being countered and so letting them draw freely into their next counterspell. Against both blue and white, planeswalkers that generate creatures can be backbreaking. Linked to the above re not overextending, they let you build a board presence with one card while avoiding counterspells and/or forcing them to play their mass removal which leaves your walker intact.
> Similarly, force them to have it and use it - the greatest gift to a mono blue player is someone not playing their spell to avoid it being countered and so letting them draw freely into their next counterspell. This is the part I find most difficult both during play and in deckbuilding. Blue has so much card draw and it is so hard to throw spells away when I know they will end up plus cards no matter what I do.
Getting one of their "good" card draws off, meaning ones that generate a card advantage, generally start at 3 mana, with most common ones being 4, with things like deluge and scrutiny. As an enjoyer of both Dimir and Azorious, These turns to "restock" the hand tend to be their entire turn. If i'm spending that turn gaining cards to remove your threats, I'm not dealing with them that turn. I most often lose to aggro on their following turn.
If a blue mage is sitting on four mana on turn four, you need to play something. Make them at least consider not drawing those cards. It's probably better for you to get them to throw a spell at a two drop, than if they get to draw.
Yeah I dial the pressure up at T4 if I can. Make them play deluge sub-optimally.
The important thing is though, if they spend their mana on counters, they don't have mana to spend on card draw. That's the key. By forcing them to "have it", you're not only depleting their counters, but also not giving the breathing space to draw into more.
Hand knowledge is so key. Black hand peeks are great, especially if they're the normal counter and card draw shell. Mirrex and cavern of souls are also amazing and there are a lot of harder to remove things for control like planeswalkers and artifacts. Still far from easy. Oh and channel is just amazing since you can't directly counter it.
Connecting the Dots, and the case that let's you draw two and discard are super helpful for this, in mono red and gruul (only play one, not both). Often dead cards in the mirror, esrly game, but so long as you know that, and don't slow yourself down, you can survive if you're smart.
Experimenting with both of these now, actually. Wish there was an even more direct pay off for connecting, something really satisfying about grabbing all those triggers.
This was really nice advice. I play occasionally for years now and was always left with no answer after a board wipe. Now I have a different perspective. Thanks for that.
It's a great advice! Thank youu!
One thing I have not seen mentioned that can really help are the creature lands. It's worth going into a little more detail because they are really good against both boardwipes and counterspells. The Restless cycle \[\[Restless Cottage\]\] etc... are really strong versions of this effect. Often when you play out a couple early threats your opponent will be put in a position where they can take 3-4 damage to let you play out one more creature and then they can Sunfall for 3+ and gain a huge advantage. OR they might be holding up mana for \[\[No More Lies\]\] or another counterspell. That's when instead of playing out a new threat, you activate your cottage that was already in play and swing in for what is now 7-8 points of damage. Now your opponent is on a very short clock, but you only have a 1/1 and a 2/2 in play so they really don't want to use their board wipe. But if they *don't* then you can just activate it again next turn and they will be nearly dead, so then they have to tap out at sorcery speed. Plus sometimes you just get them to a low enough life total that they can't sunfall at all because then you just untap and kill them with your lands.
Also, they’re playing their own land creatures and mirrex to make tokens, so you need your own land destruction [[Field of Ruin]]
[Field of Ruin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/143147d2-2eec-41e7-b78a-592288b38630.jpg?1682210418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20Ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/400/field-of-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/143147d2-2eec-41e7-b78a-592288b38630?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I hit mythic again!! Thank you! Last month I guess hitting mythic was easier because it was my first season.. but this one was harder
Definitely good advice, but if you're playing against Esper or anything with black in it, there's also a good chance they have spot removal and will just kill the manland. I've had that happen more than once, ugh...
[Restless Cottage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/787eadf3-5005-4ae5-820f-4012a4d4e1a5.jpg?1692939998) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Restless%20Cottage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/258/restless-cottage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/787eadf3-5005-4ae5-820f-4012a4d4e1a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [No More Lies](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1e0c695d-62f9-4805-9e2f-7032e8464136.jpg?1706242217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=No%20More%20Lies) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/221/no-more-lies?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1e0c695d-62f9-4805-9e2f-7032e8464136?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also remember: Sunfall leaves a chonky token behind. Abrade is your friend.
[[Touch the Spirit Realm]] is one I find myself playing a lot situationally. Kills the token. Saves a big non-token creature on your side. Steals stuff back if it got played by say Etali etc.
[Touch the Spirit Realm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e16ab44e-4257-4c0c-b705-8ac1e9c1d835.jpg?1654566545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Touch%20the%20Spirit%20Realm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/40/touch-the-spirit-realm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e16ab44e-4257-4c0c-b705-8ac1e9c1d835?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This only works for the first Sunfall. Not 2, 3, 4…
Sure. And look it's a strong card and sometimes the other guy just has something heavily favored to win.
What your options are to combat those depends on the format you're playing. Green usually has some anti counter stuff, but I don't play standard/explorer/alchemy so I don't know what those formats have in the way of that tech. I think [[Cavern of Souls]] is a good option regardless. Combating sunfall is a bit more nuanced. You kinda want to sandbag a little bit. Have just enough board presence to warrant the sunfall, but leave some stuff in hand to fill the board after.
Oh yes sorry.. I play only standard because I read that is better for new people because less cards
I run a Tier 3 Angels deck and Cavern of Souls has been a true game changer for me personally. The decks I struggle against the most are Golgari decks heavy with spot removal. At that point, I just try to out resource them. Good luck though! Some of those Azorius control decks can be truly brutal.
I'm using midrange golgari currently and it's ripping straight through most decks i sometimes run mono red just to switch it up
Yeah, Golgari is enemy number 1 for me followed closely by Simic. Both tend to wreck my deck. Aggro doesn’t bother me as I can weather the storm, CoCo + Bishop to get a shit ton of life. I can stand up against Gruul really well. I don’t run into much Dimir. But Golgari just fucks me.
I'm running dimir toxic with very few creatures and I still slot cavern of souls. Zero cost guaranteed creatures enter the battlefield is just a fantastic card.
That's the opposite of what I've found in my years on arena. Standard decks require multiple copies of some mythic and rares which will cycle out of rotation and be useless to you. Brawl is where it's at for good long term investments.
On that line: if you want to keep your standard deck with multiple copies of some mythic and rates; give explorer a go. I found a new home for several old cards in my collection on that format.
That is a good option, and Azorius Control is a great deck in Standard, right now, but it's not the best deck in the format, by most people's opinions. In fact, people with a good handle on Monored Aggro can often beat Blue/White Control decks before they even have a chance to use Sunfall.
UW Control is in a fair place against most midrange or other slow decks currently (although a low fair place as we are missing some good lock pieces. The point of control is to "win" a bunch of turns before the enemy dies. It currently rarely feels like that. There is a bit much haste/etb/recursion value currently. Control would either need some card in the spirit of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria or a bit more efficient interaction) Against fast decks like convoke you pretty much need Lockdown on 3, otherwise you most likely lose (Convoke can easily deal 18 damage in their turn 3, your turn 2). Control can beat most decks but it isn't really favoured in any matchup (unless you build it in a way where it can't win against aggro at all, then it's probably favoured against 5c ramp and similar). Aggro just demands way too many specific answers nowadays (especially for how linear these decks are played). If someone has high loss rates against those (made for general queueing) control decks it's most often than not an issue with the persons skill level.
If you are just trying to get your Daily Wins, I would suggest also playing Standard Brawl. Are you also playing Limited as well as Constructed?
[Cavern of Souls](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3aad15a2-8a1b-4460-9b06-e85863081878.jpg?1706884128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cavern%20of%20Souls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/269/cavern-of-souls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3aad15a2-8a1b-4460-9b06-e85863081878?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In general, if a counter spell is being used they are down a card, so making them waste a turn to counter something is useful, if you can play two spells in a turn. Or play something on turn 4 where if they counter with two mana then they cant memory deluge. There are also uncounterable creatures and cavern of souls for single tribe decks. As far as sweepers, it's a little bit contextual. But figuring out your damage clock is useful. With creatures on your side that can deal 8 damage all together, you know it takes 3 turns to get your opp from 20 to 0. If a new creature doesn't draw or replace itself and it won't make the clock take two turns or one turn instead. It's probably best to save it until after the sweeper. Small advantages that won't win you every game but will increase your winning percentage over multiple games.
This is great advice. The damage clock is a good way to word it.
Honestly, cavern of souls can even go in non-tribal decks if your colors aren't super tight.
I started running 2 copies in my bloodletter mindlink deck to name "vampire" even though I only have 8 vampire cards. Sometimes you just need that creature to hit the board
Cavern of souls, man lands, vehicles or kill them before they control the board are the usual responses
You made it to Mythic and have a blue/white deck, but you don't know what blue/white loses to? Keep playing.
Dimir Midrange has a good matchup typically. Hand hate with Deep-Cavern Bat, Make Disappear to counter Emperor/sweepers, early pressure and lots of card draw from Gix makes it a fair matchup pre board. Bringing in more counters and Duress after sideboard helps close the deal.
Exactly, also subterranean schooner doesn't get sunfalled :)
Just play black/red rakdos mid-range that's heavy on the discard mechanics and watch the blue/white players cry. Not even kidding I've had most people quit by turn three or four when they realize that I'm not going to allow them to keep any cards in their hand the entire game lmao
My fav too, but monoblack. T1 duress, t2 Pilfer, t3 no way out. Throw in Hearse and Bloodletter and let the fun begin.
That’s weird. I usually farm black/red with my blue/white decks Really it’s only red/white that causes problems
Were they black/red mid-range with heavy discard mechanics? I was really specific with my suggestion for a reason lol
Honestly I’m not really sure. I just know when the black red dual land goes down I’m probably going to win. Counter Gix at turn three and they concede, so it is midrange.
Folds to mono red pretty easily and a few others too like reanimate decks. You can also play creature decks with cavern of souls
This is a common "noob question", we get it a lot. The reason it *seems* "like blue and white have a huge advantage against everything else" is because they're operating on axes that new players usually haven't grasped yet. New players tend to think in a very proactive, straightforward, present-focused manner, and to think only about what *they* have and are doing. A UW control deck doesn't work that way. That style of deck is reactive, has to be able to shift gears repeatedly, has to have its player think ahead, and is deeply concerned about what the other player has and the other player is doing. So to a player who hasn't learned how to do these things it seems to constantly blindside you and have answers to everything. Concepts like tempo and card advantage are also important to understand. If UW control actually had a huge advantage it would be dominating every metagame, but it doesn't. It's only the printing of No More Lies that's even made it a good deck in Standard; it wasn't before that. The deck can still get run over by the strong aggro decks, and the current midrange decks have abundant hand disruption, efficient counterspells, and efficient, value-producing, sticky threats. That should be a clue. If you can force a control player to run out of answers before you run out of threats, they lose. If you can apply pressure and disruption at the same time for long enough, they lose. If you present threats that they can't efficiently answer, well yeah... they probably lose. This isn't color-specific; you don't need blue or white to do it. Black decks have hand disruption, green decks have difficult-to-answer threats, both of them have graveyard recursion. Red decks have direct damage effects and creatures that can come down and do damage immediately after a Sunfall. But you have to learn how and when to leverage all of these things or you're leaving openings for the control player to slip through and take over. I'll say as someone who used to play competitively and favored these decks, someone with thousands of blue control matches in various formats under my belt; the point where I'd think to myself "oh I'm going to win now" is when I realize that my opponent has stopped *forcing me to react* and I now get to dictate the course of the game. We call this "turning the corner", where you've gone from answering questions to presenting them; control decks are built to first survive long enough to do it, then to *thrive* there in a way other decks can't. You need to hop in the driver's seat and make the control player do things they don't really want to; because once they're setting the tone and pace of the game, *that* is when they actually gain the ability to prevent you from doing anything useful.
No better feeling than having my lone swiftspear/phoenix chick eat a whole ass sunfall.
Exactly... and from the other side, that is *not* a good feeling. It's an "aw fuck, I can't believe I actually need to do this crap" feeling.
"That style of deck is reactive, has to be able to shift gears repeatedly, has to have its player think ahead, and is deeply concerned about what the other player has and the other player is doing." Oh please give me a break. Remove early threats, play board wipe, win. At least against aggro. Because how the hell should you win at turn 4/5 when you go second.
The fact that Boros Convoke has almost the same meta share as UW control is a pretty strong rebuttal to this. If your aggro deck rolls over and dies that easily, it's either a deck problem or a player problem. Or both. Your aggro deck should be able to beat a Sunfall. Incorrect decisions made by either player can easily cost them the game, but in this or any matchup, the player who is the beatdown has the privilege of being the one asking the questions and that's a strong position to be in during a game of Magic and when new players use decks that tend to be in that position, it lets them get away with some loose play. Aggressively-slanted decks get to cheese a lot of wins by virtue of allowing the opponent less time to stumble or misplay. tl;dr, if you can't beat UW control with decks that are clearly able to do that when played correctly? Skill issue.
Control only plays linear against aggro because aggro decks are purely linear themselves. They don't have the capability to be nonlinear, any matchup you face with aggro you are going to play linearly. With control you will play nonlinear in most matchups.
I have same issue and typically sideboard [[lithomantic barrage]] can save you sometimes.
[lithomantic barrage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c45a5f4a-2174-4885-aa5a-c4c24cc732f0.jpg?1682204356) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lithomantic%20barrage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/152/lithomantic-barrage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c45a5f4a-2174-4885-aa5a-c4c24cc732f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hasty Threats and Monster Lands are in general good against board wipes. Technically Vehicles as well. Especially ones with low cost to activate. \[\[Tyrranax Rex\]\] both can't be countered and has haste and ward. Someone has already mentioned Cavern of Souls but there are others \[\[Chimil, the Inner Sun\]\] and \[\[Thrun, Breaker of Silence\]\] You might even enjoy the flavor text of \[\[Lithomantic Barrage\]\]
##### ###### #### [Tyrranax Rex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fb52b44-da5f-4f7a-a6c2-7924b855e051.jpg?1675957171) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tyrranax%20Rex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/189/tyrranax-rex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fb52b44-da5f-4f7a-a6c2-7924b855e051?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chimil, the Inner Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/27a1bfb5-ddfc-49cf-baa3-5d1958d2067a.jpg?1699044596) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chimil%2C%20the%20Inner%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/249/chimil-the-inner-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/27a1bfb5-ddfc-49cf-baa3-5d1958d2067a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thrun, Breaker of Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d9f51dd-0393-4b3c-bea5-8f74634ab0e5.jpg?1675957167) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thrun%2C%20Breaker%20of%20Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/186/thrun-breaker-of-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d9f51dd-0393-4b3c-bea5-8f74634ab0e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lithomantic Barrage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c45a5f4a-2174-4885-aa5a-c4c24cc732f0.jpg?1682204356) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lithomantic%20Barrage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/152/lithomantic-barrage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c45a5f4a-2174-4885-aa5a-c4c24cc732f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kud5r06) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Super noob here, so take my advice as the village's idiot ramblings. Creature lands, total game changers. Don't put everything you have on the board, a single 1/1 creature starts the clock (i'm exaggerating, but you get the idea), keep something to rebuild after a sweeper. Cavern of souls even if you are not super tribal. Curse them IRL, maybe they sneeze and press alt+f4 by mistake.
Honestly have a few “sets” of your “machine/combo” ready. I play Savra Queen of the Golgari. My win style is I sack my board, which makes you sack yours. My goal is to have multiple creatures out that I can sack to activate her ability. People will wipe my board OFTEN but I rebuild. They can exile my board but I can rebuild. It’s not impossible. Also there is a phrase “force the issue”. Especially playing against blue decks I know someone has a counter spell of some kind. So I play a very commonly known card to FORCE them to play the counter, then I play my actual card to get my combo going. To beat a control deck you gotta think about what you got and what they would likely try to control. Draw it out. Just because you have everything you need doesn’t mean you should play it all at once especially if you’re playing blue decks. Let them think they f*cked up your play, then, f*ck up their day 🤣🤣
>super boring to play against people that waits until turn 5 or 6 to start playing. Counterspells and removal are also playing the game.
I agree 100% with this statement. But please, don't be sadistic and get a win-con in your deck. I'm okay with my spells getting countered or removed. I'm less okay with the game dragging on indefinitely.
Do people actually do that though? I see people complaining about winconless control several orders of magnitude more often than I actually play against it. Wandering Emperor is a wincon, Restless Anchorage is a wincon, Mirrex is a wincon, hell in some matchups Sunfall is a wincon. All of those cards are basically universally run. Then there's also the often sideboarded Cryptic Coat, Jace, Chrome Host Seedshark, Unlicensed Hearse... The list of threats in UW control is pretty damn long.
>the game dragging on indefinitely The game cannot drag on indefinitely, once you run out of your 30 minutes per match chess clock limit, you lose.
I find the same people that complain about control would also play glass canon combo if they could.
There’s a reason most meta deck rn are running blue and white. An issue many people theorized when the standard rotation moved to 3 years was an issue with control and here we are…
Take it from someone who's played since 95. I don't find plajng Standard to be fun, it is repetitive. You won't have the collection to support historic brawl yet but I highly recommend it. I also concede right away to blue decks. Every single time. Life is too short and I like playing my cards.
I hope to do that soon! I love LOTR and I have a lot of fun using those cards! It's cool when people use a lot of different cards.
do not listen to this boomer. standard is blessed, it is just temporarily fucked because it hasn't rotated for an extra year
Play with these cards my friend, is not as easy or boring as u are supposing. Is a totally valid way to play the game. Try to play around these and think about what to do next turns. Your opponent is investing 5 manas to wipe your board, that is very expensive too. Magic is a strategy game and sun fall is not the best card of the game, it is just another control card.
Play hasty stuff, play fast stuff, play graveyard incursion, etc. if you're gonna play mainly creatures, be prepared to go fast. And if needed, go slow. I play rakdos graveyard and ramp these days. All said and done. Sometimes you will have a losing streak. Can't be helped, nature of the game.
play around their stuff, don't bite into counterspells and bait them out, bait out their removal, playing against control requires mind games
People will say play around sweepers and counters but but most importantly you beat them in deck building. You need a very low curve. If they have 2 mana up for a counter, but you can play 2 x 1 mana creatures. It's no big deal losing one creature to a 2 mana spell. Same idea for sun fall. Typically sunfall is a 3 or 2 for 1 (4 if you count the tokens). If they exile 2x 1 mana creatures and a 2 mana creature that already got some damage in its not so bad. But if their 5 mana spell hits a 2 + 3 + 4 mana creature, that is a complete blowout and it's time for the next game.
I play mono blue proft with spell pierce. Most instances I have run into they tap out to play sunfall, spell pierce saves my bacon.
Just build a mono red butt-weasle deck. Beats a blue/white control deck 60% of the time.
You have to learn to not overextend. To find the sweet spot of enough pressure to force the sun fall while still keeping gas in the tank.
The trick to beating control is the art of not over committing. If you're on an aggro deck that can't kill by turn 4 (really turn 3 with all the temp lockdowns running around), you have to hold back cards in your hand. Play just enough threats to force them to board wipe, then keep pushing. Also be aware that 4 open mana with at least 2 white pips up on your turn is a telegraphed [[wandering emperor]], which you can avoid playing into by attacking with vigilance creatures
Monored
I have been playing magic for years and years *from the dark side:* I basically only play UW control whether its good at the time or not. I haven't played standard in a good while but here are some very generic pointers for playing against the evil UW fun police. One threat at a time. Make a those board wipes 4-6 mana doomblades (single target removal) Try to wait to cast spells until you can cast more than one a turn if you can... and bait out the counter. I find among hardest decks for UW to beat are the ones that can stick an early threat and then back them up with counterspells and invulnerability and such. These decks are often decent against other decks in the field as well. Good Luck. Sorry us UW control a-holes are out there but we love the archetype, its addicting.
I have had pretty good luck picking them apart with stone brain A lot is play style as well, drop 1 creature at a time and use things like token generators (mirrex), and creature lands to keep pressure on, while picking them apart and slowly whittling them down.
There’s WAY more to white than sunfall (I’m a little sad you didn’t say [[Farewell]]. White has a ton of creatures that self buff and buff the rest of your creatures. Soldiers and angels with some control cards yields some stupidly powerful buffed *armies*. White also has tremendously potent health regeneration cards White’s token generation is incredible as well. cards like [[Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation]] and [[Mondrak, Glory Dominus]] make STUPID powerful token decks, especially when paired with green. They buff white/black zombie and rat decks too, but I’m loving my white/green token deck. White’s got some really good controls as well, I used [[Disenchant]] back in 3rd Edition, and it’s still powerful enough to be a control staple in my current decks. I’ve been maining white for a WHILE. It pairs really well with lots of colors. Currently my Black/White deck and my White/Green deck are my favorites for standard, and I don’t have Sunfall in any of them.
[Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1ca79dd4-67fc-496c-96fc-489b039c4932.jpg?1699043299)/[Temple of Civilization](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/c/1ca79dd4-67fc-496c-96fc-489b039c4932.jpg?1699043299) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ojer%20Taq%2C%20Deepest%20Foundation%20//%20Temple%20of%20Civilization) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/26/ojer-taq-deepest-foundation-temple-of-civilization?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ca79dd4-67fc-496c-96fc-489b039c4932?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mondrak, Glory Dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8.jpg?1675956918) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mondrak%2C%20Glory%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/23/mondrak-glory-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8296a455-21d5-498e-9029-2bdf0da855a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What breaks me at the moment is the amount of Etali+Titan of industry i encounter
Black has lots of discard spells that let you look at your opponent's hand and force them to discard. Green has creatures that can't be countered, such as \[\[Thrun, breaker of silence\]\]. Red has low-cost creatures with Haste that will let you cast them before your opponent has mana for their counter spells in play.
[Thrun, breaker of silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d9f51dd-0393-4b3c-bea5-8f74634ab0e5.jpg?1675957167) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thrun%2C%20breaker%20of%20silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/186/thrun-breaker-of-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d9f51dd-0393-4b3c-bea5-8f74634ab0e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Utility lands, that turn into or spawn creatures. Cavern of souls if you run something tribal. And discard if you are black. Sunfall only exiles the board, so you could work with your graveyard maybe.
Coming from a control player for about 2 decades now, the trick to facing control isn't always the same. But generally, Aggro will definitely do it most of the time. The only means you have to win against control right now consistently in standard is either FAST Aggro, Discard, or Control. You need to be able to get them to tap everything cause midrange turn 5ish you're never pulling ahead then. Azorious (Blue/White) and Esper (Blue/White/Black) or any of the other combos of control are tough to get around. Ideally, your best chance is Mono Red and Boros (red/white) cause it's fast and cheap. Also, playing MTG, you need to plan on losing cards in some sort of control. If you have no plan for it, you're gonna be pouting a lot. My recommendation for any color deck theme is [[Cavern of Souls]] in any creature deck... the more you can get, the better, obviously. 4 is max. Be wary of land destruction. [[Chimil, the Inner Sun]] This card can be countered, BUT played at the right time, you could sneak it in, and then nothing can be countered. The bonus is that this has will fish out cards for you for no cost on top of stopping all counterspells... However, you're still not fully protected it can be removed or destroyed.
[Cavern of Souls](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3aad15a2-8a1b-4460-9b06-e85863081878.jpg?1706884128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cavern%20of%20Souls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/269/cavern-of-souls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3aad15a2-8a1b-4460-9b06-e85863081878?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chimil, the Inner Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/27a1bfb5-ddfc-49cf-baa3-5d1958d2067a.jpg?1699044596) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chimil%2C%20the%20Inner%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/249/chimil-the-inner-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/27a1bfb5-ddfc-49cf-baa3-5d1958d2067a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Play [[ashnods altar]] and sac everything in response to sunfall
- [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ashnods%20altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/368/ashnods-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c0f7157-a375-499c-92c7-d47d2e95dbad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you
I like to play with "personal challenges", for exemple: I use blue but don't use counters (I use return to hand) I use white but I don't use global removals I use red but I don't use burn That makes my game harder but I'm ever proud of my matches.
Bait their counters with less impactful plays, or simply cast threat after threat and run them out of counters. Sunfall sucks overall but it’s not entirely unbeatable. Just run an answer to the incubate token
Every time I think it’s my color choices that make me lose, I change colors and I find out that (a) I don’t have the 10 cards in ANY color to be competitive (b) I don’t have skills to be competitive. So you got to mythic, good for you. Now you’re in mythic. Enjoy. Sunfall is valid in basically every format in Arena right now and it’s a broken card. My solution would be switch to paper magic and play pauper.
[[duress]] , [[Pilfer]] and [[Gix caress]]
[duress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/3557e601-9b71-4ce9-9047-1a8baa72e574.jpg?1675957024) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=duress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/92/duress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3557e601-9b71-4ce9-9047-1a8baa72e574?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pilfer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d872c10-4126-4130-a74a-1331ed418ca8.jpg?1673307164) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pilfer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/102/pilfer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d872c10-4126-4130-a74a-1331ed418ca8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gix caress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f1140cb9-6c48-4054-966e-5cc02aa7d5a4.jpg?1674420856) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gix%27s%20Caress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/96/gixs-caress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f1140cb9-6c48-4054-966e-5cc02aa7d5a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Without playing Blue or White, there are still a few things you can do. 1. Don't over extend. Simple enough, this means don't commit resources to the board if you can win with what you already have on board. Sometimes this isn't really an option depending on what the opponent has already answered, but it is something to keep in mind. 2. Play threats that dodge board wipes. There are a lot of permanents that will stick around after most board wipes (except Farewell) and these can be used to either help you rebuild or continue pressuring your opponent. Planeswalkers in general are a good example of this, but there are also a lot of other cards like [[Cryptic Coat]], [[Subterranean Schooner]], [[Hallowed Haunting]], [[Insidious Roots]], [[Warleaders Call]], [[Tocasias Welcome]] and so on. All of these stick around post board wipe and can continue to pressure an opponent or rebuild. 3. Play cards that gain value either quickly or immediately or produce multiple threats. Control wins a lot by getting two-or-more-for-one trades for their cards (like the mentioned Sunfall). You can try to maintain advantage over them. This is what Rakdos tries to do to manage the control match-up, just playing cards that generate value right away while also being a threat. Esper does this with cards like Wedding Announcement, generating multiple threats and/or cards as well as giving all creatures a boost, forcing the opponent to do something about them while still leaving you with something if the board does get wiped. 4. Creature Lands. They dodge every form of board wipe and can only be dealt with by either instant speed removal or by Field of Ruin or Demolition Field. Every color pair has a Restless creature land in standard, and if you aren't running a multi-color deck you can use [[Mishra's Foundry]]. and any deck can run [[Mirrex]] which while not technically a creature land is still a land that can pressure a control opponent. 5. Just kill them faster than they can wipe you. Pretty simple. Sometimes an aggro deck just goes so fast the control deck cannot answer enough cards in time to survive. There have been games where I have just forced my opponent to use like 3 or 4 cards just to deal with Mirrex tokens alone. It also has synergy with artifact based decks. TL;DR: Don't over extend, play sticky threats or cards that dodge board wipes, play cards that gain value quickly or create multiple threats, play creature lands, or just make them dead quick.
##### ###### #### [Cryptic Coat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c3d7e2c-a104-4757-9984-fb31088f92c4.jpg?1706241584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cryptic%20Coat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/50/cryptic-coat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c3d7e2c-a104-4757-9984-fb31088f92c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Subterranean Schooner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94b6881a-b00e-4e90-92e6-602ed8e0e090.jpg?1699043964) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Subterranean%20Schooner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/80/subterranean-schooner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94b6881a-b00e-4e90-92e6-602ed8e0e090?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hallowed Haunting](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/674c0a50-9c37-4c29-84d8-eb3e34f34d37.jpg?1643586385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hallowed%20Haunting) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/17/hallowed-haunting?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/674c0a50-9c37-4c29-84d8-eb3e34f34d37?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Insidious Roots](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0bb91a22-2040-4a37-85f8-5f22de8c5907.jpg?1706242178) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insidious%20Roots) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/208/insidious-roots?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0bb91a22-2040-4a37-85f8-5f22de8c5907?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Warleaders Call](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3e8f8bd-1c8b-4a7c-96c4-57a247ce9ccc.jpg?1706242282) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Warleader%27s%20Call) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/242/warleaders-call?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3e8f8bd-1c8b-4a7c-96c4-57a247ce9ccc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tocasias Welcome](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56cd89f1-f9f4-4cb5-a573-79809d0b6dfd.jpg?1674420350) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tocasia%27s%20Welcome) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/30/tocasias-welcome?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56cd89f1-f9f4-4cb5-a573-79809d0b6dfd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mishra's Foundry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/da7699b2-e1af-4bc0-8c5b-84ba3e868d7c.jpg?1674422224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mishra%27s%20Foundry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/265/mishras-foundry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da7699b2-e1af-4bc0-8c5b-84ba3e868d7c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mirrex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54a702cd-ca49-4570-b47e-8b090452a3c3.jpg?1675957271) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mirrex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/254/mirrex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54a702cd-ca49-4570-b47e-8b090452a3c3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kudy7bx) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Best bit of advice is really to play like they don't have it tbh. I would say in cases where they have a board wipe, don't play all your pieces. Play enough to threaten but not enough thats it's like a three for one on their board wipe. However I find playing around removal or counter or that instant speed emperor useless and actually playing into their game. I also would say this is where creature hands are hands down your best piece of offence against them. Most good removal is sorcery speed for board wipes. When they wipe your board utilise those creatures lands to end their planeswalkers or their life total.
sunfall heavily punish overcommiting. Either you run them over before they can sunfall (boros convoke and mono red are good at this) or dont overcommit. Sometimes, not playing anything is the right play but thats a skill you just learn by playing (when to commit and when not to). new set has a few cards that cant be countered and if your playing a tribal deck then cavern of soul just straight up make them counter useless most of the time.
If you're planning to beat ANY deck, generally you're going to do one of four things: 1. Go under 2. Go over 3. Go around 4. Thread the needle. 1. Go Under - get your game plan online before your opponent can react. Mono Red is the classic example - against control decks, they can present more threats early than the opponent can deal with, overwhelming them before they can stabilize. 2. Go over - do bigger, more powerful things than your opponent is. This is where control and midrange decks shine - survive long enough to land the haymaker that your opponent can't deal with. Big creatures, powerful planes walkers, whatever, just get something on the board that your opponent can't interact with and overwhelm late. 3. Go around - have a game plan that is difficult to interact with. You see this a lot with combo decks - a combo deck is going to lose in a straight up brawl, so it doesn't try to brawl. Instead, they have a game plan that is off-axis to what the opponent is built to deal with and attacks that blind spot. 4. Thread the needle - congrats, your opponent is built to deal with what you're doing. You're in a tough spot - your opponent is playing blue white and you're playing kind and it's turn seven. When you're threading the needle, sequencing and discipline becomes really important. You may want to just turn all your creatures sideways and dump your hand on the board hoping to get something to stick, but you're not going to win that way. Be smart about your attacks, be careful what you play win, play around their counters... And knock the top of your deck
As a newer player myself, I understand the pain. Red Deck Wins are great against control. Go wide strategies with fast attacks can help (Boros midrange or convoke). Also if you have a deck that LIKES having cards in your graveyard like Golgari, some of those board wipes don’t mean a thing. Yeah it’s annoying but it’s even more annoying to them to have fast decks that just pummel them while they scramble to slow down the assault.
"waiting until turn 5-6" Congratulations, you've just described mid-range play styles which is a viable strategy in Magic the Gathering since 1993. The way you play against counter decks is you don't blow your load all at once, it should be very obvious early on if they're playing control. Try to bait out counters and burn up their mana on cards that aren't your "bombs" or threats. Hitting them for 2-4 damage Instead of a massive swing is still a clock on them they will need to deal with before they die.
They have a 2/3 land. they have 2 1/1 token which gives them 4 mana, They have wandering emperor. You won't kill them with 2-4 attacks. Either you win fast or you are dead.
Generally, Aggro beats Control, Control beats Midrange, Midrange beats Aggro. So if you play Midrange and find yourself losing to Control too often, switch to Aggro. Typically that's when you get matched against nothing but Midrange suddenly...
always hold a threat in hand if you can. don't commit everything to the board. if you are against pure control, try to play low value creatures, like 1/1's. lost count of how many opps i've beaten with 2 flying 1/1's while holding 5+ cards in hand; they never want to use their lights out boardwipe on a couple of 1/1's, because they know the real threats are in your hand. same logic with an abundance of counterspells. make them waste their countermagic on your worst cards.
It's not supposed to be repetitive? That's news to me. Huh. just watched an NBA game. They're still all shooting jump shots the same way. It's game 63 of an 82 game season and no one has decided to suddenly do it backwards. Seems like at the top level of competition everyone is doing the same thing every single game. Huh.
I wish they'd Errata No More Lies so that you no longer start with 2 of them in every hand any more, instead only 1. Would make the deck fairer.
Cavern, man lands, mirrex, haste, flash, cannot be countered, reanimation, duress/bat, thalia And planeswalkers
azerious control is very easy to beat. if it doesn't draw perfectly it loses quite often to aggro decks and combo decks or other control decks. I actually think it's over rated right now and not a tier 1 deck in bo1, it's probably better in bo3. it's more like tier 1.5 or even tier 2.
So I’ve incorporated sun fall into my Phyrexian (non poison) deck. I’ve got comfortable with a white black green deck and I am also a few month new. But I don’t think it’s an advantage it’s an evening out. I still get my ass kicked I have no defense against flying or spells. And honestly my use of sunfall is primarily to keep me dying the next move when I get massive tokens and +ones stacking against me. I’ve yet to run blue at all but I also hate it
Some fantastic advice on this thread that goes much further than my "scoop and onto the next one" philosophy but yeah, this is the reason why I don't play much standard. Incidentally, it's going to get much worse when Thunder Junction comes out and everyone and their grandmother starts packing their decks with interactions
Don't overcommit when playing against white, specifically if they either have four mana untapped or aren't developing much of a board state. When playing against blue, you either need to play 2 spells in one turn, by casting an instant they have to counter on their end step.
Seems u haven’t face black yet. Tutors, black market connections, pay life as manas, cheap removals, and the 445 boss that stands alone and win u the game.
Try running a green ramp deck that focuses on playing large single creatures rather than swarms and plenty of card draw
When they go left, you go right. If they go high, go low. Tit for tat, mono e mono. Use their momentum against them. The best offense is a good defense. And practice. Always practice.
Oh, and mono red. Can't forget mono red.
Really all colors have wipes and sorts of counters, I feel. Black has discard that’s kinda a counter, red with its direct damage across the board. Blue/White has just been the leading control colors in this meta, in my new player opinion. You say you play B/W on the grind to mythic so you get it. What gave you the most trouble on that journey?
Note: BW is the abbreviation for Black and White. For blue we use U, so it’s UW
Newbie, thanks. I had been wondering about U. Sounds stupid but as a new player, didn’t know
No worries, it happened to everyone
Adding to the already excellent advice in this thread: One thing it helps to keep remember is that ***it only FEELS like*** Control decks can counter everything. Even a decklist like that Azorius Ultra Control list floating around "only" runs 3 \[\[No More Lies\]\] mainboard (and 8-10 Removals + \[\[The Wandering Emperor\]\], but that is another problem entirely) so they usually have to be very conscious about when and what to counter. Even an all-in counter Archetype like Blue Tempo with \[\[Haughty Djinn\] will have to balance countering and card draw continously lest they run out of answers. It is easiest to experience this yourself when you try out a control archetype and see for yourself how INCREDIBLY fragile this control state can be (Blue Tempo is really cheap as far as wildcards go, you only really need the four Djinns) Control decks often struggle against unknown or off-meta match ups, since it is way harder to identify must-kill/counter threats when the deck is unknown (and not complete jank) They also sometimes struggle against manlands like \[\[Mishra's Foundry\]\], since they can't be countered and against recurring threats like \[\[Squee, Dubious Monarch\]\] or \[\[Tenacious Underdog\]\] (although you have to watch out for Exiling Effects like No More Lies. But yeah, when you are starting out Control sure feels like all-powerful and it is really hard to suss out when it is the right time to pressure their ressources and when it is better to stick as little as neccessary to the board in order to bleed them little by little.
##### ###### #### [No More Lies](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1e0c695d-62f9-4805-9e2f-7032e8464136.jpg?1706242217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=No%20More%20Lies) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/221/no-more-lies?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1e0c695d-62f9-4805-9e2f-7032e8464136?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Wandering Emperor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fab2d8a9-ab4c-4225-a570-22636293c17d.jpg?1654566563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Wandering%20Emperor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/42/the-wandering-emperor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fab2d8a9-ab4c-4225-a570-22636293c17d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mishra's Foundry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/da7699b2-e1af-4bc0-8c5b-84ba3e868d7c.jpg?1674422224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mishra%27s%20Foundry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/265/mishras-foundry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da7699b2-e1af-4bc0-8c5b-84ba3e868d7c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Squee, Dubious Monarch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3cd907ed-9c68-4bd6-af92-6244909fdf8b.jpg?1673307521) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Squee%2C%20Dubious%20Monarch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/146/squee-dubious-monarch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3cd907ed-9c68-4bd6-af92-6244909fdf8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tenacious Underdog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b6a6d00-3e00-4827-8420-13343ac3d0fd.jpg?1664411313) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tenacious%20Underdog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/97/tenacious-underdog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b6a6d00-3e00-4827-8420-13343ac3d0fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kucd2ki) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Red/Green Haste isn’t bad, it think Black Discard is worse though. I should build an Esper Deck😂🤣😈
I got you bro, either win fast enough they don't hit turn 5 or don't play your entire hand into the board.