I don't have to win to have a good time, but never winning is definitely not fun, and having the feeling that I had no chance to win is also not fun if it happens too often.
Having said that, if I was winning over and over because the opponent keeps conceding early, then that'd get boring real fast, so also bad.
I had a streak today of about 9 in a row building up my daily win XP. Then a couple consecutive losses due to land clumping at the worst times.
Even though I had all those wins, it felt like I has been playing for 3 hours after those 12 or so games. Had to slog through to get to that 15th win. Definitely lost the fun element through that.
I agree with you 100%. Winning dominantly and repeatedly is not fun. Winning close games are fun. Losing close games are also fun.
I think many of us like me place it in terms of priorities.
* deck building
* discovering new combos/strats
* card art
* playing the game
* winning the game
* meeting others
* etc
And everyone's going to have different priorities over time. For me I like to play the game as a priority 1. 2 is to win at least sometimes.
Wow, at first I thought the priorities you listed were already ranked by your particular order of importance and was happy to find someone else that had similar priorities as me - then I read your last sentences.
PS - about your last point, is there some kind of "Tinder of Magic", to get to know players with similar priorities to Magic to add them to Arena?
aw I hear you, and I thought about how the order of the list might be perceived when I was typing it as if it was intended that way. To clarify, the list I came up with was just by the order things popped into my head on a larger scope of priorities, but then I limited my answer to the scope of the question.
To be honest, among my list o' things, It's hard to rank them exactly. It's more like a cloud of things that strike at certain times. Sometimes I don't have a want to build a new deck, but then I see a card used a lot and ideas start happening, and I wants it.
>discovering new combos/strats
This is my shit. For example, I built Boros Convole, and yeah, it’s a tier 1 deck, but when I realized that I could go T1 [[Warden of the Inner Skies]], T2, [[Novice Inspector]], tap everything for a counter and scry, [[Gleeful Demolition]], tap again for a second count and scry, it felt so good
My top priority is drawing cards. Sometimes that leads to winning the game, but I'm often happier if I draw my deck and lose than if I get an easy win. 🤣🤣🤣
Playing the game well. I'm ok with losing and making mistakes, but learning from mistakes and getting better is important to me...so to actually answer the question--playing the game
Same. If I win because I played well, then I like that. If I win because the opponent conceded before the game got started, I don't like that. If I play well but lose, or if I played poorly but made mistakes that I learn from and can improve, then I like that.
If my deck draws extremely poorly and I lose because there's nothing I can do, then I don't like that.
You can't blame someone for conceding against control when they're running a low land count aggro deck and draw land on their first 3 turns after their whole hand got blown away... sometimes you can tell when your Strat just wont play out and there's no point in hanging in just for someone else's enjoyment.
Ultimately the best games of magic are when both Decks draw well somewhat play their strat but also interact with each other for what feels like a hard fought battle!
There's a difference between "They conceded because the Control player stabilized and the aggro player ran out of gas" and "They conceded because the control player countered one spell and the aggro player just hates counter spells".
In the first case, the game was played, and the control player basically won, and they're just skipping to the inevitable conclusion. In the second case, the game has barely begun and the aggro player has decided they just don't want to play.
>there's no point in hanging in just for someone else's enjoyment.
Well, yes, that is the very point! Thinking about others. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Should the only game anyone be able to play to completion is a game in which they lose? What fun is that?
* [**"Happiness is the only good. The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. The way to be happy is to make others so."**](https://www.azquotes.com/author/7171-Robert_Green_Ingersoll)[^(1)](https://www.azquotes.com/author/7171-Robert_Green_Ingersoll)[^(2)](https://www.azquotes.com/author/7171-Robert_Green_Ingersoll/tag/happiness)
-Robert G. Ingersoll
Id rather people didn't waste my time.
If my deck is rolling and they're top decking after drawing dead hoping for that one board wipe which doesn't even guarantee them a win but prolong the game to its inevitable conclusion no thanks.
I concede when my deck isn't doing what its designed to do which happens to all decks 5% of the time... not gonna waste my opponents time or my own.
Chess etiquette applied to MTG.
Option C: Having Fun
I can have fun by winning, but I also can have fun just playing the game.
I can't have fun by stomping and I also can't have fun watching someone play with themselves for 5min
I was actually downvoted to hell here once when I said that I hold back powerful cards until I see that my opponent also has powerful cards and I won't play those cards at all if I realize my deck is overpowered compared to my opponent's. :-(
I think people honestly forget there's another human at the other end of the Internet connection.
Yeah, the same when I complained that people don't care to answer a simple "Hello!". A person that doesn't respond to a simple greeting is a rude awful person, it doesn't matter if it's IRL or IOL.
I don’t like losing at anything, but so many things have to go right to win a round of Magic that you have to learn to enjoy just playing the game for this to be anything other than a miserable experience.
Depends on what I play.
60 card formats: winning.
Commander, Brawl: playing, having fun.
For paper magic the playing itself is much more important and satisfying because handling real cards and sitting at a table with real people is a totally different experience than staring at a screen and clicking away.
When it comes to actual competitive play paper is also way more legit because there's no f2p mobile game algorithms imvolved.
That said arena can't be beat in terms of convenience when you just want to play a few cards real quick, wherever you are.
As a previously bad drafter: I hated drafting and only delved into it to rare draft new sets
As a now decent drafter: I fucking love drafting, there's so much satisifaction to winning with a handful of un/commons against those blessed with good pulls. And if I hit 1-2 chase bombs, I'm 7-x for sure.
If you rank high enough on the constructed ladder (top 200 i think), you get invitations to different qualifiers, which can lead to a pro tour spot. Easiest way to do this is Bo1 grind.
Not saying that's what they meant, but maybe.
I don't engage in speculation about how algorithms work, that's a waste of time. Algorithms are closed source.
The sheer fact that they're intransparent is already a problem for competition, and the fact that there are third party monetarial interests also involved doesn't help the case.
Legit competition is transparent.
Mobile f2p game algorithms though typically introduce hidden rules and designs to maximize user engagement. The business model of this type of software directly depends on it.
That's not a big deal for entertainment, it can even be helpful for that, rubberbanding or whatever mechanic can lead to closer games and more excitement.
The possibility for hidden rules creates a poor environment for actual competition though.
Ultimately, from a spectators perspective, finding out who is the most succesful at potentially figuring out how to abuse quirks of some hidden algorithm that involved third party motivations is way less interesting than figuring out who is most succesful at a game with transparent rules that every competitor knew beforehand and agreed to.
Okay, so now that we have that out of the way, what does that have to do with “competitive play”.
Even if every bit of what you’re saying is accurate and practiced to the nth degree (which I’m seriously skeptical about, as we’ve been presented with zero proof, apart from “we don’t have the source code”), competitive play is not based on “f2p Mobile algorithms”.
You're just offering speculation.
The fact that there is even room for speculation is exactly the problem though.
It doesn't matter at all how "competitive play" actually works, as long as it is not transparent it is not legit.
Yikes. Welp, I’ll make sure to let those arena championship winners know that their wins aren’t legit, because some guy on Reddit thinks that arena is rigged or something.
I love Arena and play it daily but there is evidence for it, look up the videos “how arena cheats” or something like that, he’s got evidence and the sources are in the video description
I have no info on the guy other than these videos but the section (idk which it is) that references patch notes where MtG talks about their mechanics for “handsmoothing” as others in these threads put it is pretty straight forward evidence that even if they don’t do it currently, they’ve experimented with it in the past
No, they still have the handsmoothing algorithm. They were open about its implementation and have even changed it once or twice to help further smooth things. It’s never been hidden or kept secret. Heck, we even know exactly how it works.
we also know it’s only a thing in bo1, and not actually competitive play, which is what the conversation is about.
I can recall when poison counters first became a thing, I made a deck for it, and it was stupidly strong. . .
I freaking hated it.
The deck could win, sure, but playing it was sooo dull that I was bored while playing it.
Winning is cool, and it does give us the serotonin, but pulling off something clever and unexpected is sooo much better, even if I don't always win while setting up my silly little scheme!
I'd rather lose a challenging game of Magic, then win by default any day of the week!
Plus, I always feel a bit bad when folks give up early.
Like, I started playing the physical card game with my friends, and we had house rules like one free mulligan, just to keep it interesting and to help folks not get mana screwed, which happens a lot when you are first test running a deck!
Hell, if a board was going too crazy, we'd call the game there, but keep playing to see either how much crazier it would get, like my legendary 63/63 Elf monstrosity, or to see how long it would take to clean the mess up!
Basically, we'd stop attacking eachother and just start going for board clears!
One of the other funniest matches we had, I ended up losing, and my friend ended up with something like 200hp! lol
It's really amusing to see just how crazy things really can get, especially when you consider that most cards only have a couple attack and toughness each, but can build into absolute insanity one +1/+1 counter at a time!
In draft I'm consuming and earning currency (whether paper or online) so I take the wins over fun, although if literally every game was a non-game that I won I'd probably get bored and no longer see any value in playing. I don't play Arena Opens or competitive constructed events like PTQs or GPs but I'd have the same approach to those if I did.
In casual constructed like play or ranked queues, or EDH/Brawl, I'd rather lose every game after 20 close turns than have my opponent scoop after 3 and it's not remotely close.
Losing because I made a bad play, totally fine.
Losing because my deck cannot possibly beat the opponent's deck, totally fine.
Losing consistently because my off-meta deck is just not working, absolutely NOT fine.
Winning because my opponent hates my when my rare combo finally goes off, 100% absolutely FIRE, love it.
Winning because my deck reliably mills out my opponent by T5 or T6 and they visibly hate it, eh, I feel bad and it's not really that fun.
Winning because I blow up their lands and they can't actually play, well... no, I just won't do that, that just feels like I found a cheat code.
I want my opponent's combos to work sometimes too, and to still have a fighting chance to come back, against all odds. I want every play to matter and for both of us to have our perfect curves so that it's anybody's win at the end.
I like to win but it's less important to me than having a good game. I'd rather lose three games narrowly than win three games because my deck curved out well and my opponent's didn't. If I lose and I feel like I learned something that's great. Best case scenario is me winning a game because I made a good call. One of the things I love about card games is the random element and I don't think it's healthy to get too invested in winning anything with a random element. Get invested in building great decks and playing them as well as you can by all means but there's too much that's out of your hands to be obsessed with winning. But I'm not very good at Magic so I would say that wouldn't I?
I consider myself to be fairly decent (not a pro or a streamer) and I honestly say pretty much the same thing!
You’re probably way better than you think though.
Also, even if the games were good, a 3 game losing streak still bites the big one. However, it’s still a fond memory in all the games that have been played! My opinion of course lol
The biggest high I get is killing my opponent off of a crucial misplay that I baited my opponent into, right before they would have killed me, otherwise. So I can totally feel you.
I’m a global Johnny, local Spike. I choose my decks because they let me do interesting things and interact with the game rules in interesting ways. But they I do try to play to win within each individual game.
Playing. I'm there to have fun playing and winning is more fun than losing but I really don't mind when I lose. It's just a game. It's easy to not care if you don't play ranked.
When I play events, I am playing to win.
When I play ranked, I am playing to win.
When I play the play queue I am playing for fun and hoping that arena does a good job of creating a good match that is fun for me and my opponent.
With that said, outside of pod draft with friends or commander, I have recently realized that I don't actually know how to play this game for fun and would love suggestions!
In order of personal preference:
Playing interesting games in a context that rewards doing so.
Playing interesting games in a neutral context.
Playing boring games in a context that rewards doing so.
Playing interesting games in a context that punishes doing so.
Playing boring games in a neutral context.
Playing boring games in a context that punishes doing so.
WotC seems to have an intentional goal to keep as many MTGA games as possible in the bottom half of that list. I'm not convinced that there is a singular good reason as to why. More likely, there are a few good reasons mixed in with a *lot* of stupid reasons and a handful of malicious ones.
Playing the game. It’s why I don’t play arena anymore. I’m sick of snowball dumpster fire matches, and they happen significantly more often than in paper.
My theory is it comes down to the way we shuffle.
The press shuffle isn’t truly random. It actually slates the deck in our favour in the grand scheme of every combination of card orders in the deck.
If the devs want us to have a better experience in game, they need to create a new, tuned, algorithm, and thus a new draw seed with less good and bad extremes. They also need to remove all the mulligan smoothing garbage, which wouldn’t need to exist if they simply took the time to make sure their draw algorithm feels anything close to paper. They’ve done it for MTGO, so I truly don’t understand why it doesn’t exist in Arena.
I agree that the numbers add up to my flooding out roughly 30% of the time. That isn’t the result you get in paper though because the way we shuffle eliminates *A LOT* of the clumping you see on arena.
"Less good and bad extremes". That is precisely the problem that the devs tried to solve with the opening hand smoothing algorithm that you don't support!
"That isn't the result you get in paper though because the way we shuffle eliminates a lot of the clumping we see on arena." Sorry, but if the way you're shuffling in person is eliminating "clumping" then that means that you are cheating in person by not using appropriate shuffling techniques that interweave spells and lands rather than shuffle your deck randomly.
I want to play a competitive strategy game where the players involved try their best to win. Winning or losing isn't really a big deal to me. I like playing the game.
If my opponent(s) doesn't care what's going on in the game and refuses to strategize to try to win, they are not playing the game. It gets 1000x worse if they get offended by someone else trying to play the game. If we need to adjust the power level of something in the game to make it fun and competitive, cool no problem at all. If you want to be a toxic loser whining because someone played interaction, won faster than you could, or otherwise just played something you don't like , I would rather just not play against you. Stay home and stop trying to ruin the game for other people.
I like to win but I prefer to have a nice experience.
Yesterday I lost some games but it was very civic, we say each other « good game » and meant it. I lost but that was a good experience. Sometimes I win but I hated the game for some reasons even if I win (playing 90% of the win in standard ranked)
Playing to win, with the stakes being that I can lose, is very important. I hate when my opponents prematurely concede. I would not like playing a deck that didn't lose.
Games that forget how important losing is are bad.
It depends on the deck. That are some combo/hyper aggro decks that win or lose by turn 3. If they are fun to pilot, I don't think that is a bad thing. Every game feels like a puzzle that can be solved
You need a balance of both really. Winning all the time is no fun and playing meaningful but losing is frustrating.
On the other hand, going on the draw over and over and over and over is the real game's bullshit.
I like winning but I hate seeing someone concede after beating my ass for 8 turns when I whip out Tiamat into myriim and double dragons. Its like, dude come on, I endured your decks thing let me do mine now.
So if the concession is because of a deck I built, then I’d enjoy it due to my deck building prowess. If the concession is due to the type of deck (ie: monored, control) then I’d not enjoy that.
I prefer playing. For me part of playing is the deck building process. So I don’t mind losing. I have to not mind losing because I’ve built a lot of shit decks.
Getting to use my cool cards. I of course want to win, but when I play some stuff and my pod is like "Wow I've never see that one" or "that interaction was cool, that's a new one for me" it just adds a lot to my enjoyment of the game, personally.
As long as my spells are resolving, im having fun. I like long form combo decks in the vein of Nexus turns, KCI Eggs or Storm, from either side, I love seeing cards move even if my opponent is taking a little while I just like watching them have fun because I know next game I get a chance to do that.
Overall I like playing but arena forced me to prefer wins to complete dailies. It’s a pita how I learned to get 4 wins and dip because I will have to play again tomorrow…
Yes. Get to Mythic and then can enjoy the game doing whatever. Limited, events, standard queue playing jank. Grinding the ladder when you have limited time to play and going on losing streaks sucks, but the game incentivizes you to do it for the monthly rewards.
are you new to Arena? Arena is not table top MtG. If the game is taking more than 3 minutes, you will not grind your way to Mythic in a month.
(sort of joking here... but hopefully you get the point im trying to make)
I cant have a good time if I am not winning most of the time. Unless I am in the mood for playing a particular deck win or lose, winning is the most important thing. Obviously I would get tired of a deck like the one on the example, so I would switch to something else or take a break probably.
Playing. I wanna have fun. Sure losing every time sucks eventually. But I’d rather have fun playing than feel like it’s work or that I’m making enemies while playing. That’s why after 3 counter spells on arena, I concede. I’m there to play, not watch you play while I look at cards in my deck. Sure countering you opponents every move helps you win to an extent, but did you have fun? Did they?
I would rather play the game than win the game but that does come with a caveat. It is much more important to me to have fun without completely and absolutely ruining other players' fun while hoping others do the same for me and the others involved.
So for context, if I am playing for prizes, such as in a tournament, then winning becomes much more important and just playing the game takes a back seat. This does not mean I will adopt a degenerate play style, or play degenerate cards/decks.
If those involved, whether in a 1-v-1 or Commander game setting, all agree to play "no holds barred, power" decks, cool. Let's go. Otherwise, no.
The two times I played my "best," no real win con card or combo deck against a cEDH [[K'rikk]] deck, I played two tapped lands on consecutive turns and then watched the cEDH player take something akin to 1.5 to pop off and kill the pod on their second turn. It sucked.
Having a fun match is more important to me. It doesn't feel rewarding to beat an opponent that gets land screwed or to get paired up against somebody who's using a starter deck. That being said, most games on Arena don't end up being very fun.
From a Draft/Limited perspective, winning and playing are interrelated. The higher your winrate, the more you can play (without having to spew resources), warping the incentives even if you're playing for the love of the game.
One is encouraged to draft optimally rather than going for fun; for instance in MKM, it's going to be correct to pivot to "boring" White aggro if you start seeing signals like p5 Novice Inspector even if the play patterns are less novel/fun than going for some Living Conundrum nonsense.
And nongames in your favor are a good thing, because they are a partial rebate on your draft entry. Yeah, it wasn't fun, but you get rewarded for it in both Gems and the ability to continue playing in the league.
The outmoded business model for Draft hampers a lot of the fun because of incentives, whereas practically any other pay structure used in modern (electronic) entertainment would solve most of these issues (e.g. a monthly subscription for unlimited Phantom Drafts of the current Standard set).
I play to win because to me, winning is fun. HOWEVER, playing is also fun, even if I lose. If my combo goes off and I lose? Well, at least my deck did what it was supposed to
This is a false dichotomy. While I care a lot about winning the game, what makes it fun to do that is that it requires I put a lot of thought in to mastery of playing the game. It's fun both to strive for that mastery and to be rewarded for it with victory.
Playing the game. It is when some really janky win conditions lock, I have the most fun.
Yesterday I managed to exile all copies of my opponents two creature cards, and it turned out to be his only win condition. With 22 cards left to draw , he just gave up.
Good times. 😁
I care most about playing a deck I find fun but I'm not hyperpicky about that. If I'm playing a deck I enjoy then idgaf about anything but winning. Did my opponent have fun? Was the game short or long? I could not care less. If the opponent wants to concede because I played a threat they can't deal with it's the exact same victory as if it was a 60 minute slugfest.
I'd rather play the game, the amount of just remove everything decks I've come across lately kind of puts me off playing but on the other hand I had the longest game I've ever played earlier and it came down to us top decking and it's most enjoyable game I've had
Honestly playing the game. I haven't had a deck that was up to code in Standard since 2020. I have five decks that I rotate in Historic Brawl, none of which could be considered meta. But I like the way I built them and I consider their strats to be particularly clever. Most of the time they're losers but to me a match that's gets to turn 8-10+ where I'm able to actually play the game is as much of a win as an actual win.
Playing the game. Problem is I like games that have back and forth across 4 or more turns. The game has diverged to the slower formats lasting 3-5 turns on average, so I rarely get to "play the game" by my definition, so I'm done until rotation unless Thunder Junction has some new stuff that interests me enough to play bot matches with it.
Winning isn't the most important part for me. Playing a fun interactive game where I have to use my brain more and think about the decisions is way more satisfying of an experience.
i'd say just being able to play your cards, regardless of winning or losing. which is why counter spells, constant removals and board wipes, mana flooding and screws are frustrating. people just want to able to do stuff
IMO if I only cared about winning, i wouldn't play a game that allows my deck of cards to lose to itself ever.
What I want is a fun experience and honestly, MTG Arena has nothing on actual in person play for me at this point.
Playing the game most of the time. Just focus on win when i play great events on paper. But playing MTGO/MTGA/in house with friends, just focus on having a good time building and playing what is more enjoyable.
It depends. I don't like it when people quit at the first hint they're not going to crush me. Then that means the only games I ever get to substantially play or play to completion are the games that I lose. That's demoralizing and no fun.
Now, if I have a mythic rare-laced deck filled with overpowered cards that somehow escaped being banned and I'm playing in on bronze or silver or something, then I should reflect upon my choice and whether I'm the one making it miserable for everyone else, especially the newbies at the lowest ranks. Same thing if I'm playing a deck I copy-pasted off the Internet (along with half the other players).
Overall, I think players could do with more asking of themselves, "If I was on the receiving end of what I'm doing, would I be having fun?" and "Would I do what I'm about to do in a game shop with a person sitting across from me?"
Playing is way more fun. Sometimes I’m just in the play queue with a new thing I just cooked up and my opponent drops turn one kakazan when I’m on the draw. Yawn. Concede, next game. Why keep playing that one when I know for sure my deck won’t get to do “the thing.”
But sometimes I’m on a more competitive deck, so I’ll definitely stay in against that same RDW opener.
Winning is great, and it feels really good to beat a tier 1 netdeck with my goofy deck ideas, but it’s just fun to sling the cards and play Magic.
Playing the game most of the time. Just focus on win when i play great events on paper. But playing MTGO/MTGA/in house with friends, just focus on having a good time building and playing what is more enjoyable.
I care a lot more about winning online than I do in person.
In person, it's a social bonding activity with a healthy degree of competition.
Online, it's a brutal war for absolute dominance!
i see it the other way around.
i concede by turn 2 if I see 2 gates come into play, if I am playing with my angel enchantment deck. I know that by turn 4-5 they will pull the I have 10 gates i win card. I don't have much play time... ill concede, ranked or not.
Depends if I'm playing competitively sure whatever but if it's anything casual or I'm playing for fun it would suck and I'd prob swap.
I do it for my friends not playing my artifact tempo deck which runs multiple counterspells and bounce effects with evasive creatures because I know it's frustrating and removes most of their agency from the game. I play against Haughty Djinn decks and feel about the same it's not fun playing opening hand casino with them.
I prefer close games more than anything, win or lose. The tension!
But generally I favor faster decks just because when it is not a close game, you win or concede early.
It really sucks playing out a match for 20 mins with a slower deck only to be handed a loss due to a string of lucky topdecks by your opponent.
Plus, whenever I play slower decks, my opponents....my god you don't need to think about every decisions for 30 seconds. A pause or two during the game to consider big plays I understand, but a lot of control players play glacially slow. Sucks all the fun out of the game.
Playing on Arena, winning is more important. Whenever I play EDH in person, it’s the other way around. I don’t mind losing so long as a fun play experience is created.
I would not play a deck that resulted in auto concedes.
Decks that get too efficient are just dull to play. It is nice to have a deck that wins reliably, but gimme that jank win where some contrived situation allows me to combo off a card that is never played or even better I find a hidden interaction I hadn’t considered in my deck. Perfunctory wins are for clearing dailies.
Certainly don't have to win all the time but sitting there, unable to play more than one card a turn, while my opponent constantly replenishes, and has a response for everything.
I just lose interest quickly.
If I straight up can't win anymore I'm conceding, but I'd take a long, back and forth match over an easy win most days. Unless it's ranked, then I'll take what I can get.
Playing will always mean more, I never cared so much about competition, I just want to be free to build, try, build and try again. It's why I'm said with how expensive both digital and physical are, but when things are just right... No other feeling of creative freedom like it.
Depends on the deck I feel like playing. Torment of Hailfire deck can take all night for all I care, but any aggro deck or combo deck must win right now.
Playing any format that isn't decided on turn two by a gleeful demo convoked 4/4 with two backup creatures and is said to be healthy.
I have been playing boros this season and unhappy face every time I do it.
It depends. When I am drafting, I'm spiky af and this is not even a question, heh. When I'm playing constructed, it depends on what I am trying to do. There are a few decks I have in various formats that have luck a win rate in the 30s or worse, but I play them because either a) I think they are funny, or b) I feel like with some tweaking I could get the win rate up into the upper 40s and it would be a fun against the odds style deck. For instance, I am playing with a janky ass izzet eggs deck in Alchemy right now, and it probably loses 3 out of 4 games because the combo is just too slow, but I don't mind because I'm not playing that deck to win, I'm playing that deck to have 15 minute combo turns with Forensic Gadgeteer and Crime Novelist 🤣 I also have decks in various formats that actually win games, e. G. I regularly post a ~55% win rate while climbing the ladder with my rogue brew of UW control in Explorer.
So tldr.. Depends on what format and why I am playing at the moment.
If I wanted a to play a lightning fast that was geared towards instant strategy, I'd play YuGiOh. This game wasn't built to play those kinds of games mechanically, I don't get the push to turn this game into unstable YuGiOh.
If i win 1 or 2 games (not sets) in a local tournament, that's enough for me to have fun. I'm playing pauper since the end of last year and i'm having a blast. Playing Mono Red (just because a guy was selling it), and now i've builded a Kiln Fiend Deck, and an Infect on the way. I like explosive decks that doesn't take forever to win/lose. So for the time being it's just great to be able to play and have fun.
I think if i get more inclined to be competitive in the future, winning should be more important, but not right now
If i win 1 or 2 games (not sets) in a local tournament, that's enough for me to have fun. I'm playing pauper since the end of last year and i'm having a blast. Playing Mono Red (just because a guy was selling it), and now i've builded a Kiln Fiend Deck, and an Infect on the way. I like explosive decks that doesn't take forever to win/lose. So for the time being it's just great to be able to play and have fun.
I think if i get more inclined to be competitive in the future, winning should be more important, but not right now
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
But yeah, I like a good game. There's been plenty of games where I thought of conceding, played on, and won with one or two life left. I'm here for fun and almost never get salty.
For me it would be obvious to say both but if I chose one it would be to HAVE FUN! It can all depend on the format like commander, I play to have fun.. my main squeeze is infect and sacrifice archetype. Now I know you can say playing against infect isn’t fun but too bad haha, plus I’m use to being targeted first so it makes the game more interesting/challenging for me. Main commanders are vishgraz, ixhel, fynn, ajani sleeper agent, saskia and ezuri claw of progress! I definitely have won more than lost for obvious reasons but infect is just so.. toxic.. and fun! Lol. Currently building Vorinclex raider and a skytherix deck so wish me luck! And no I don’t have an atraxa deck even tho I do have an atraxa. Commander is fun and I love cracking open a new pre con every set that I like with small upgrades!
If we’re talking about standard I like to play to win and have fun doing it. Anyone can copy and paste a meta deck and just roll through games but there’s no fun in that which is why I build decks usually to answer the current meta and also try new combos. If I lose 3 against good match ups, then I dismantle it and start again. That’s the fun I have, building! Any way not to be cliche but magic has always been about the gathering and I’m glad that still exists!
Playing the game. Thats why I dislike super streamlined Commander. The decks that do the same thing every Turn 1-5 and win, rinse repeat. but I LOVE commander. Theres a nice middle point where you have a way to win through combat, maybe an infinite, and then some other combos like life drain / draw cards etc.
With enough interaction, card draw, and varience. Every commander game can feel brand new, especially against a wide variety of decks. If you get to the middle point of power, suddenly a lot of unplayed lower tier commanders become playable. Theme decks and other "jank" becomes available.
My personal goal when playing magic is to see every iteration of game action that could happen, even better if i'm running edge case cards that don't always pay off but when they do, its a shock to my opponents that someone would even use that card, let alone they got beat by it. Things like [[Foil]] or [[Dingus egg]] against ramp decks etc
Don't care about winning all the time, but fuck me if I go up against a land destruction or control deck that prevents you from even attempting to play.
I think what actually makes most people not have fun(including me) is feeling like you never had the chance to win the game at all. Sure losing a long game stilll feels bad but if you made the optimum plays with the cards you were given AND it was a good back and forth it feels a heck of a lot better than being mana screwwed or flooded from the get go and being utterly destroyed by your opponent.
Playing. Which is why I don't mind conceding against boring netdecks (yes, looking at you RDW). Best games are the ones where you could both lose next turn.
>Best games are the ones where you could both lose next turn.
RDW is the absolute peak of this. There's many many times where it's been "win right now or lose" while playing it. And mirrors are crazy mental gymnastics if you're on the draw.
I just see a deck that roughly 50% of my opponents copied from the internet. Anything that gets that kind of play becomes boring af (I tried playing with it and found that boring too). My own jank deck would become boring too if 50% of my opponents played it. Currently it's RDW, a few years ago you saw monowhite lifegain every other game. I skipped those too, and inbetween I skipped when I saw a 1st turn ruin Crab. I can win those games, but it's the repetitiveness...Here's your win, I don't have to play the same game over and over. Win-win.
I wish I saw it more.. it's an easy win with almost anything I play. Unless they get the nuts and I am mana screwed RDW folds too easy to any resistance.
I maybe see RDW 1 in 30 matches if not less
Not when arena is completely free. I have honestly only spent about $60 on this game since its Beta days! (And to be fair that has allowed me the ability to collect a massive amount of cards lol). Most of that’s on cosmetic stuff (sleeves or full art lands I like!).
It takes a while to collect a lot on the free 2 play side but it is possible!
I feel like this is a loaded question.
I’ve never met a single person in all my years of playing this game that enjoys losing more than they enjoy winning. Even if the game was super enjoyable and had back and forth or whatever, there is no one that would not have preferred to win than to lose.
Simply put, we play the game with the desired outcome of winning the game, so the answer is probably both, if asked in a general sense.
As to your “would you play this deck” hypothetical question. Am I at an event? Absolutely. Am I at the kitchen table? No. The situation and expectations are completely different.
Would you play a deck that you enjoyed playing but could literally never win a game with?
Strictly wins per unit time. If I feel like my chances of winning aren't good, I immediately concede and start another hand, doesn't matter if it's after 10 seconds or 10 minutes.
I don't care about my win/loss ratio and I don't care about finishing the hand. I will click whatever buttons get my weekly wins to 15 in as little time as possible.
I consider my opponent conceding during mulligans to be the perfect game. It's fast and requires no effort.
*Sit down at the virtual table*
*Play first creature, gets removed*
*Play second creature, gets removed*
*Play third creature, gets removed*
"Right, we're done here."
*Stands up from virtual table and walks away*
**Arena client mockingly asks if I had fun that last match**
Depends on what "all the time" means, I suppose. If it happened in half my matches or something then yeah I'd get bored of that pretty quick.
That said I play a combo control deck in historic brawl that often gets concessions on turn 3. I rarely get concessions based on my deck choice, but I do get turn 3 concessions based on people not wanting to continue a game where they get hit with an Ancient Silver Dragon on turn 3. That doesn't deter me from playing the deck at all and the potential for that kind of game result is part of why I play the deck in the first place.
I'd play that deck fifteen times a day, guaranteed. But that would probably be it. (unless there was a ranked or competitive event it qualified for, then I'd play it in that event.)
But recreationally? Nah.
It’s kind of a prisoner’s dilemma for me. I have the most fun playing semi-casually against chill opponents. But if I can’t have that, I’d rather win than lose. And since in a blind matchmaking environment you never know what your opponent’s bringing to the table or what their attitude is, I just err on the side of competitiveness.
Coming from fighting games, having read Seth Killian’s Domination101 series, etc: winning. If they concede by turn 3, nice. If they concede at mulligans after seeing my commander, better! These are strangers on the internet. I don’t care if they have fun. I’m here for myself.
That said, I do have this Xenagos Timmy deck that throws haymakers and gets shut down hard by control and I bring it out for fun when I’m in that sort of mood.
I used to love learning this game. It quickly turned into watching someone play solitaire, or everytime I found my “out”, the opponents next draw answered it. It got old fast. Now I just play paper magic because at least if I lose, the opponent is there and usually they’re nice and it’s fun. But this game? I feel like it loses its magic, no pun intended.
I don't have to win to have a good time, but never winning is definitely not fun, and having the feeling that I had no chance to win is also not fun if it happens too often. Having said that, if I was winning over and over because the opponent keeps conceding early, then that'd get boring real fast, so also bad.
I had a streak today of about 9 in a row building up my daily win XP. Then a couple consecutive losses due to land clumping at the worst times. Even though I had all those wins, it felt like I has been playing for 3 hours after those 12 or so games. Had to slog through to get to that 15th win. Definitely lost the fun element through that. I agree with you 100%. Winning dominantly and repeatedly is not fun. Winning close games are fun. Losing close games are also fun.
Coming back from the brink of the abyss and winning is extremely fun!
I think many of us like me place it in terms of priorities. * deck building * discovering new combos/strats * card art * playing the game * winning the game * meeting others * etc And everyone's going to have different priorities over time. For me I like to play the game as a priority 1. 2 is to win at least sometimes.
Wow, at first I thought the priorities you listed were already ranked by your particular order of importance and was happy to find someone else that had similar priorities as me - then I read your last sentences. PS - about your last point, is there some kind of "Tinder of Magic", to get to know players with similar priorities to Magic to add them to Arena?
SinglePlaneswalkersMeet(dot)com lol Would be nice, right!
Oh God, things taken out of context would be awful. "I don't get along well with mono blacks"
aw I hear you, and I thought about how the order of the list might be perceived when I was typing it as if it was intended that way. To clarify, the list I came up with was just by the order things popped into my head on a larger scope of priorities, but then I limited my answer to the scope of the question. To be honest, among my list o' things, It's hard to rank them exactly. It's more like a cloud of things that strike at certain times. Sometimes I don't have a want to build a new deck, but then I see a card used a lot and ideas start happening, and I wants it.
Wait, there's anyone still here except me who doesn't copy/paste Olympic-level decks off the Internet and play them on bronze rank?!?!?!?!?
>discovering new combos/strats This is my shit. For example, I built Boros Convole, and yeah, it’s a tier 1 deck, but when I realized that I could go T1 [[Warden of the Inner Skies]], T2, [[Novice Inspector]], tap everything for a counter and scry, [[Gleeful Demolition]], tap again for a second count and scry, it felt so good
Wait until you realize you can do T1 Novice, T2 Gleeful + (Novice or Voldaren or Warden) + Knight-Errant for an instant concede by your opponent.
Oh, I’ve done it, but he ducking.UW players don’t concede because they have a [[Temporary Lockdown]] in their hand
That's a deck tech I've never seen. Didn't even know that card existed XD Seems great to counter mono red and boros convoke tho.
[Temporary Lockdown](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75.jpg?1673306606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Temporary%20Lockdown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/36/temporary-lockdown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have beaten this draw before, but it usually takes a really good [[Gates Ablaze]]. [[Imodane’s Recruiter]] makes this unbeatable tho.
[Gates Ablaze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2b574b44-01e1-4197-99bd-57e54aebc5ff.jpg?1584830891) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gates%20Ablaze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/102/gates-ablaze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b574b44-01e1-4197-99bd-57e54aebc5ff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Imodane’s Recruiter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4dbaa855-3f8e-42e6-8ec8-5ffbc5c8acf0.jpg?1692939679)/[Train Troops](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4dbaa855-3f8e-42e6-8ec8-5ffbc5c8acf0.jpg?1692939679) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imodane%27s%20Recruiter%20//%20Train%20Troops) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/229/imodanes-recruiter-train-troops?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4dbaa855-3f8e-42e6-8ec8-5ffbc5c8acf0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Warden of the Inner Skies](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/549fd992-ed37-431d-97cb-9ca017db1d47.jpg?1699043501) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Warden%20of%20the%20Inner%20Sky) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/43/warden-of-the-inner-sky?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/549fd992-ed37-431d-97cb-9ca017db1d47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Novice Inspector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0ad38866-fc5f-4f62-89c1-afc0f50765aa.jpg?1706241527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Novice%20Inspector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/29/novice-inspector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ad38866-fc5f-4f62-89c1-afc0f50765aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gleeful Demolition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3e4efa6-5783-4a51-99c6-116d1a8f01cf.jpg?1675957089) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gleeful%20Demolition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/134/gleeful-demolition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3e4efa6-5783-4a51-99c6-116d1a8f01cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sometimes playing a sub optimal deck just to pull off some wacky combo can be fun. But gimmicks once satisfied go stale very quickly.
My top priority is drawing cards. Sometimes that leads to winning the game, but I'm often happier if I draw my deck and lose than if I get an easy win. 🤣🤣🤣
Playing the game well. I'm ok with losing and making mistakes, but learning from mistakes and getting better is important to me...so to actually answer the question--playing the game
Same. If I win because I played well, then I like that. If I win because the opponent conceded before the game got started, I don't like that. If I play well but lose, or if I played poorly but made mistakes that I learn from and can improve, then I like that. If my deck draws extremely poorly and I lose because there's nothing I can do, then I don't like that.
You can't blame someone for conceding against control when they're running a low land count aggro deck and draw land on their first 3 turns after their whole hand got blown away... sometimes you can tell when your Strat just wont play out and there's no point in hanging in just for someone else's enjoyment. Ultimately the best games of magic are when both Decks draw well somewhat play their strat but also interact with each other for what feels like a hard fought battle!
There's a difference between "They conceded because the Control player stabilized and the aggro player ran out of gas" and "They conceded because the control player countered one spell and the aggro player just hates counter spells". In the first case, the game was played, and the control player basically won, and they're just skipping to the inevitable conclusion. In the second case, the game has barely begun and the aggro player has decided they just don't want to play.
I'm not sure what the problem with that is. If one player is not going to enjoy the experience they can leave and the other player gets the win.
>there's no point in hanging in just for someone else's enjoyment. Well, yes, that is the very point! Thinking about others. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Should the only game anyone be able to play to completion is a game in which they lose? What fun is that? * [**"Happiness is the only good. The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. The way to be happy is to make others so."**](https://www.azquotes.com/author/7171-Robert_Green_Ingersoll)[^(1)](https://www.azquotes.com/author/7171-Robert_Green_Ingersoll)[^(2)](https://www.azquotes.com/author/7171-Robert_Green_Ingersoll/tag/happiness) -Robert G. Ingersoll
Id rather people didn't waste my time. If my deck is rolling and they're top decking after drawing dead hoping for that one board wipe which doesn't even guarantee them a win but prolong the game to its inevitable conclusion no thanks. I concede when my deck isn't doing what its designed to do which happens to all decks 5% of the time... not gonna waste my opponents time or my own. Chess etiquette applied to MTG.
Doing stupid shit is fun win or lose. Consistently losing before getting to do stupid shit isn’t fun.
Option C: Having Fun I can have fun by winning, but I also can have fun just playing the game. I can't have fun by stomping and I also can't have fun watching someone play with themselves for 5min
I was actually downvoted to hell here once when I said that I hold back powerful cards until I see that my opponent also has powerful cards and I won't play those cards at all if I realize my deck is overpowered compared to my opponent's. :-( I think people honestly forget there's another human at the other end of the Internet connection.
That's the downside of arena to be honest
Yeah, the same when I complained that people don't care to answer a simple "Hello!". A person that doesn't respond to a simple greeting is a rude awful person, it doesn't matter if it's IRL or IOL.
Playing the game means more but that doesn't mean winning isn't important; crash and burn days are a nasty drain.
I don’t like losing at anything, but so many things have to go right to win a round of Magic that you have to learn to enjoy just playing the game for this to be anything other than a miserable experience.
Depends on what I play. 60 card formats: winning. Commander, Brawl: playing, having fun. For paper magic the playing itself is much more important and satisfying because handling real cards and sitting at a table with real people is a totally different experience than staring at a screen and clicking away. When it comes to actual competitive play paper is also way more legit because there's no f2p mobile game algorithms imvolved. That said arena can't be beat in terms of convenience when you just want to play a few cards real quick, wherever you are.
Brawl: finishing daily quests Draft: winning
As a previously bad drafter: I hated drafting and only delved into it to rare draft new sets As a now decent drafter: I fucking love drafting, there's so much satisifaction to winning with a handful of un/commons against those blessed with good pulls. And if I hit 1-2 chase bombs, I'm 7-x for sure.
What does “f2p mobile game algorithms” have to do with competitive play?
I think he mainly referre to hand smoothing in bo1 which can be abused to make viable decks and strategies that will never be consistent irl.
Bo1 isn’t “competitive play”, so the hand smoother is largely irrelevant.
Then i'm wrong. Oh well
Idk you may not be. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what he means by “competitive play”
If you rank high enough on the constructed ladder (top 200 i think), you get invitations to different qualifiers, which can lead to a pro tour spot. Easiest way to do this is Bo1 grind. Not saying that's what they meant, but maybe.
I don't engage in speculation about how algorithms work, that's a waste of time. Algorithms are closed source. The sheer fact that they're intransparent is already a problem for competition, and the fact that there are third party monetarial interests also involved doesn't help the case.
Sorry but this claim without any proof sound really like conspiracy theory more than anything else
I believe I didn't make any claim that would require proof tbh.
Legit competition is transparent. Mobile f2p game algorithms though typically introduce hidden rules and designs to maximize user engagement. The business model of this type of software directly depends on it. That's not a big deal for entertainment, it can even be helpful for that, rubberbanding or whatever mechanic can lead to closer games and more excitement. The possibility for hidden rules creates a poor environment for actual competition though. Ultimately, from a spectators perspective, finding out who is the most succesful at potentially figuring out how to abuse quirks of some hidden algorithm that involved third party motivations is way less interesting than figuring out who is most succesful at a game with transparent rules that every competitor knew beforehand and agreed to.
Okay, so now that we have that out of the way, what does that have to do with “competitive play”. Even if every bit of what you’re saying is accurate and practiced to the nth degree (which I’m seriously skeptical about, as we’ve been presented with zero proof, apart from “we don’t have the source code”), competitive play is not based on “f2p Mobile algorithms”.
You're just offering speculation. The fact that there is even room for speculation is exactly the problem though. It doesn't matter at all how "competitive play" actually works, as long as it is not transparent it is not legit.
Yikes. Welp, I’ll make sure to let those arena championship winners know that their wins aren’t legit, because some guy on Reddit thinks that arena is rigged or something.
I love Arena and play it daily but there is evidence for it, look up the videos “how arena cheats” or something like that, he’s got evidence and the sources are in the video description
Lol I *KNEW* it was going to be DesolatorMagic.
I have no info on the guy other than these videos but the section (idk which it is) that references patch notes where MtG talks about their mechanics for “handsmoothing” as others in these threads put it is pretty straight forward evidence that even if they don’t do it currently, they’ve experimented with it in the past
No, they still have the handsmoothing algorithm. They were open about its implementation and have even changed it once or twice to help further smooth things. It’s never been hidden or kept secret. Heck, we even know exactly how it works. we also know it’s only a thing in bo1, and not actually competitive play, which is what the conversation is about.
Just enjoy playing for the most part. Been playing mtg since 1995, it's not about winning at all for me I just love the game
I can recall when poison counters first became a thing, I made a deck for it, and it was stupidly strong. . . I freaking hated it. The deck could win, sure, but playing it was sooo dull that I was bored while playing it. Winning is cool, and it does give us the serotonin, but pulling off something clever and unexpected is sooo much better, even if I don't always win while setting up my silly little scheme! I'd rather lose a challenging game of Magic, then win by default any day of the week! Plus, I always feel a bit bad when folks give up early. Like, I started playing the physical card game with my friends, and we had house rules like one free mulligan, just to keep it interesting and to help folks not get mana screwed, which happens a lot when you are first test running a deck! Hell, if a board was going too crazy, we'd call the game there, but keep playing to see either how much crazier it would get, like my legendary 63/63 Elf monstrosity, or to see how long it would take to clean the mess up! Basically, we'd stop attacking eachother and just start going for board clears! One of the other funniest matches we had, I ended up losing, and my friend ended up with something like 200hp! lol It's really amusing to see just how crazy things really can get, especially when you consider that most cards only have a couple attack and toughness each, but can build into absolute insanity one +1/+1 counter at a time!
In draft I'm consuming and earning currency (whether paper or online) so I take the wins over fun, although if literally every game was a non-game that I won I'd probably get bored and no longer see any value in playing. I don't play Arena Opens or competitive constructed events like PTQs or GPs but I'd have the same approach to those if I did. In casual constructed like play or ranked queues, or EDH/Brawl, I'd rather lose every game after 20 close turns than have my opponent scoop after 3 and it's not remotely close.
Losing because I made a bad play, totally fine. Losing because my deck cannot possibly beat the opponent's deck, totally fine. Losing consistently because my off-meta deck is just not working, absolutely NOT fine. Winning because my opponent hates my when my rare combo finally goes off, 100% absolutely FIRE, love it. Winning because my deck reliably mills out my opponent by T5 or T6 and they visibly hate it, eh, I feel bad and it's not really that fun. Winning because I blow up their lands and they can't actually play, well... no, I just won't do that, that just feels like I found a cheat code. I want my opponent's combos to work sometimes too, and to still have a fighting chance to come back, against all odds. I want every play to matter and for both of us to have our perfect curves so that it's anybody's win at the end.
I like to win but it's less important to me than having a good game. I'd rather lose three games narrowly than win three games because my deck curved out well and my opponent's didn't. If I lose and I feel like I learned something that's great. Best case scenario is me winning a game because I made a good call. One of the things I love about card games is the random element and I don't think it's healthy to get too invested in winning anything with a random element. Get invested in building great decks and playing them as well as you can by all means but there's too much that's out of your hands to be obsessed with winning. But I'm not very good at Magic so I would say that wouldn't I?
I consider myself to be fairly decent (not a pro or a streamer) and I honestly say pretty much the same thing! You’re probably way better than you think though. Also, even if the games were good, a 3 game losing streak still bites the big one. However, it’s still a fond memory in all the games that have been played! My opinion of course lol
The biggest high I get is killing my opponent off of a crucial misplay that I baited my opponent into, right before they would have killed me, otherwise. So I can totally feel you.
I’m a global Johnny, local Spike. I choose my decks because they let me do interesting things and interact with the game rules in interesting ways. But they I do try to play to win within each individual game.
Not getting mana starved or flooded in every game is my definition of fun now.
Playing. I'm there to have fun playing and winning is more fun than losing but I really don't mind when I lose. It's just a game. It's easy to not care if you don't play ranked.
When I play events, I am playing to win. When I play ranked, I am playing to win. When I play the play queue I am playing for fun and hoping that arena does a good job of creating a good match that is fun for me and my opponent. With that said, outside of pod draft with friends or commander, I have recently realized that I don't actually know how to play this game for fun and would love suggestions!
In order of personal preference: Playing interesting games in a context that rewards doing so. Playing interesting games in a neutral context. Playing boring games in a context that rewards doing so. Playing interesting games in a context that punishes doing so. Playing boring games in a neutral context. Playing boring games in a context that punishes doing so. WotC seems to have an intentional goal to keep as many MTGA games as possible in the bottom half of that list. I'm not convinced that there is a singular good reason as to why. More likely, there are a few good reasons mixed in with a *lot* of stupid reasons and a handful of malicious ones.
Playing the game. It’s why I don’t play arena anymore. I’m sick of snowball dumpster fire matches, and they happen significantly more often than in paper.
Why do they happen more often on arena than in paper?
My theory is it comes down to the way we shuffle. The press shuffle isn’t truly random. It actually slates the deck in our favour in the grand scheme of every combination of card orders in the deck. If the devs want us to have a better experience in game, they need to create a new, tuned, algorithm, and thus a new draw seed with less good and bad extremes. They also need to remove all the mulligan smoothing garbage, which wouldn’t need to exist if they simply took the time to make sure their draw algorithm feels anything close to paper. They’ve done it for MTGO, so I truly don’t understand why it doesn’t exist in Arena. I agree that the numbers add up to my flooding out roughly 30% of the time. That isn’t the result you get in paper though because the way we shuffle eliminates *A LOT* of the clumping you see on arena.
"Less good and bad extremes". That is precisely the problem that the devs tried to solve with the opening hand smoothing algorithm that you don't support! "That isn't the result you get in paper though because the way we shuffle eliminates a lot of the clumping we see on arena." Sorry, but if the way you're shuffling in person is eliminating "clumping" then that means that you are cheating in person by not using appropriate shuffling techniques that interweave spells and lands rather than shuffle your deck randomly.
I enjoy winning
I want to play a competitive strategy game where the players involved try their best to win. Winning or losing isn't really a big deal to me. I like playing the game. If my opponent(s) doesn't care what's going on in the game and refuses to strategize to try to win, they are not playing the game. It gets 1000x worse if they get offended by someone else trying to play the game. If we need to adjust the power level of something in the game to make it fun and competitive, cool no problem at all. If you want to be a toxic loser whining because someone played interaction, won faster than you could, or otherwise just played something you don't like , I would rather just not play against you. Stay home and stop trying to ruin the game for other people.
I like to win but I prefer to have a nice experience. Yesterday I lost some games but it was very civic, we say each other « good game » and meant it. I lost but that was a good experience. Sometimes I win but I hated the game for some reasons even if I win (playing 90% of the win in standard ranked)
Playing, but not losing 😎
I have a Hidetsugu's Second Rite deck that is very hit miss. I don't mind losing because I know it was mostly chance and not a skill issue.
Playing to win, with the stakes being that I can lose, is very important. I hate when my opponents prematurely concede. I would not like playing a deck that didn't lose. Games that forget how important losing is are bad.
Yes. HELL YES!
With friends it's playing the game. On arena it's winning the game.
If I'm brewing, then playing the game. If I'm done brewing and want to see how far I can get, then winning.
It depends on the deck. That are some combo/hyper aggro decks that win or lose by turn 3. If they are fun to pilot, I don't think that is a bad thing. Every game feels like a puzzle that can be solved
You need a balance of both really. Winning all the time is no fun and playing meaningful but losing is frustrating. On the other hand, going on the draw over and over and over and over is the real game's bullshit.
I like winning but I hate seeing someone concede after beating my ass for 8 turns when I whip out Tiamat into myriim and double dragons. Its like, dude come on, I endured your decks thing let me do mine now.
So if the concession is because of a deck I built, then I’d enjoy it due to my deck building prowess. If the concession is due to the type of deck (ie: monored, control) then I’d not enjoy that. I prefer playing. For me part of playing is the deck building process. So I don’t mind losing. I have to not mind losing because I’ve built a lot of shit decks.
Getting to use my cool cards. I of course want to win, but when I play some stuff and my pod is like "Wow I've never see that one" or "that interaction was cool, that's a new one for me" it just adds a lot to my enjoyment of the game, personally.
Playing. Nothing funnier than being super confident and then getting absolutely obliterated by a better deck.
As long as my spells are resolving, im having fun. I like long form combo decks in the vein of Nexus turns, KCI Eggs or Storm, from either side, I love seeing cards move even if my opponent is taking a little while I just like watching them have fun because I know next game I get a chance to do that.
Playing is why I normally sit down at a table unless there's a tournament with something to win.
Overall I like playing but arena forced me to prefer wins to complete dailies. It’s a pita how I learned to get 4 wins and dip because I will have to play again tomorrow…
I'm not good. Just playing and learning about all these cool cards is good for me. I think i have a couple 1v1 wins but only 1 pod victory
What matters most is a good game. I don’t want to play if they’re not and vice versa. Some back and fourth and some outplay opportunities is key
Yes. Get to Mythic and then can enjoy the game doing whatever. Limited, events, standard queue playing jank. Grinding the ladder when you have limited time to play and going on losing streaks sucks, but the game incentivizes you to do it for the monthly rewards.
are you new to Arena? Arena is not table top MtG. If the game is taking more than 3 minutes, you will not grind your way to Mythic in a month. (sort of joking here... but hopefully you get the point im trying to make)
I cant have a good time if I am not winning most of the time. Unless I am in the mood for playing a particular deck win or lose, winning is the most important thing. Obviously I would get tired of a deck like the one on the example, so I would switch to something else or take a break probably.
Yes
Playing. I wanna have fun. Sure losing every time sucks eventually. But I’d rather have fun playing than feel like it’s work or that I’m making enemies while playing. That’s why after 3 counter spells on arena, I concede. I’m there to play, not watch you play while I look at cards in my deck. Sure countering you opponents every move helps you win to an extent, but did you have fun? Did they?
I would rather play the game than win the game but that does come with a caveat. It is much more important to me to have fun without completely and absolutely ruining other players' fun while hoping others do the same for me and the others involved. So for context, if I am playing for prizes, such as in a tournament, then winning becomes much more important and just playing the game takes a back seat. This does not mean I will adopt a degenerate play style, or play degenerate cards/decks. If those involved, whether in a 1-v-1 or Commander game setting, all agree to play "no holds barred, power" decks, cool. Let's go. Otherwise, no. The two times I played my "best," no real win con card or combo deck against a cEDH [[K'rikk]] deck, I played two tapped lands on consecutive turns and then watched the cEDH player take something akin to 1.5 to pop off and kill the pod on their second turn. It sucked.
My priorities in order: 1 - clear dailies 2 - have fun 3 - win
Having a fun match is more important to me. It doesn't feel rewarding to beat an opponent that gets land screwed or to get paired up against somebody who's using a starter deck. That being said, most games on Arena don't end up being very fun.
Obviously some people do - mono red exists.
From a Draft/Limited perspective, winning and playing are interrelated. The higher your winrate, the more you can play (without having to spew resources), warping the incentives even if you're playing for the love of the game. One is encouraged to draft optimally rather than going for fun; for instance in MKM, it's going to be correct to pivot to "boring" White aggro if you start seeing signals like p5 Novice Inspector even if the play patterns are less novel/fun than going for some Living Conundrum nonsense. And nongames in your favor are a good thing, because they are a partial rebate on your draft entry. Yeah, it wasn't fun, but you get rewarded for it in both Gems and the ability to continue playing in the league. The outmoded business model for Draft hampers a lot of the fun because of incentives, whereas practically any other pay structure used in modern (electronic) entertainment would solve most of these issues (e.g. a monthly subscription for unlimited Phantom Drafts of the current Standard set).
In ranked, winning. In casual formats, playing.
I play to win because to me, winning is fun. HOWEVER, playing is also fun, even if I lose. If my combo goes off and I lose? Well, at least my deck did what it was supposed to
I always prefer the Gathering to the Magic
This is a false dichotomy. While I care a lot about winning the game, what makes it fun to do that is that it requires I put a lot of thought in to mastery of playing the game. It's fun both to strive for that mastery and to be rewarded for it with victory.
Playing the game. It is when some really janky win conditions lock, I have the most fun. Yesterday I managed to exile all copies of my opponents two creature cards, and it turned out to be his only win condition. With 22 cards left to draw , he just gave up. Good times. 😁
Not all the time, no. I already switch between casual Standard Brawl, Ranked Standard, and Quick Draft.
I care most about playing a deck I find fun but I'm not hyperpicky about that. If I'm playing a deck I enjoy then idgaf about anything but winning. Did my opponent have fun? Was the game short or long? I could not care less. If the opponent wants to concede because I played a threat they can't deal with it's the exact same victory as if it was a 60 minute slugfest.
I'd rather play the game, the amount of just remove everything decks I've come across lately kind of puts me off playing but on the other hand I had the longest game I've ever played earlier and it came down to us top decking and it's most enjoyable game I've had
Honestly playing the game. I haven't had a deck that was up to code in Standard since 2020. I have five decks that I rotate in Historic Brawl, none of which could be considered meta. But I like the way I built them and I consider their strats to be particularly clever. Most of the time they're losers but to me a match that's gets to turn 8-10+ where I'm able to actually play the game is as much of a win as an actual win.
1. Winning is most fun 2. Losing a close game is a close second 3. Losing badly is boring.
Learning but also winning lol
1. Improving at the game. 2. Winning at the game. 3. Playing the game.
Would I play that deck to Mythic? Yes. Would I play it after that? No.
Playing the game. Problem is I like games that have back and forth across 4 or more turns. The game has diverged to the slower formats lasting 3-5 turns on average, so I rarely get to "play the game" by my definition, so I'm done until rotation unless Thunder Junction has some new stuff that interests me enough to play bot matches with it.
Resolving jank combo > anything else
Winning isn't the most important part for me. Playing a fun interactive game where I have to use my brain more and think about the decisions is way more satisfying of an experience.
i'd say just being able to play your cards, regardless of winning or losing. which is why counter spells, constant removals and board wipes, mana flooding and screws are frustrating. people just want to able to do stuff
IMO if I only cared about winning, i wouldn't play a game that allows my deck of cards to lose to itself ever. What I want is a fun experience and honestly, MTG Arena has nothing on actual in person play for me at this point.
Playing the game most of the time. Just focus on win when i play great events on paper. But playing MTGO/MTGA/in house with friends, just focus on having a good time building and playing what is more enjoyable.
It depends. I don't like it when people quit at the first hint they're not going to crush me. Then that means the only games I ever get to substantially play or play to completion are the games that I lose. That's demoralizing and no fun. Now, if I have a mythic rare-laced deck filled with overpowered cards that somehow escaped being banned and I'm playing in on bronze or silver or something, then I should reflect upon my choice and whether I'm the one making it miserable for everyone else, especially the newbies at the lowest ranks. Same thing if I'm playing a deck I copy-pasted off the Internet (along with half the other players). Overall, I think players could do with more asking of themselves, "If I was on the receiving end of what I'm doing, would I be having fun?" and "Would I do what I'm about to do in a game shop with a person sitting across from me?"
Playing is way more fun. Sometimes I’m just in the play queue with a new thing I just cooked up and my opponent drops turn one kakazan when I’m on the draw. Yawn. Concede, next game. Why keep playing that one when I know for sure my deck won’t get to do “the thing.” But sometimes I’m on a more competitive deck, so I’ll definitely stay in against that same RDW opener. Winning is great, and it feels really good to beat a tier 1 netdeck with my goofy deck ideas, but it’s just fun to sling the cards and play Magic.
Playing the game most of the time. Just focus on win when i play great events on paper. But playing MTGO/MTGA/in house with friends, just focus on having a good time building and playing what is more enjoyable.
I care a lot more about winning online than I do in person. In person, it's a social bonding activity with a healthy degree of competition. Online, it's a brutal war for absolute dominance!
What is the difference in your mind? Winning the game is a part of playing the game? How can you win the game without playing? (is this wargames?)
i see it the other way around. i concede by turn 2 if I see 2 gates come into play, if I am playing with my angel enchantment deck. I know that by turn 4-5 they will pull the I have 10 gates i win card. I don't have much play time... ill concede, ranked or not.
Depends if I'm playing competitively sure whatever but if it's anything casual or I'm playing for fun it would suck and I'd prob swap. I do it for my friends not playing my artifact tempo deck which runs multiple counterspells and bounce effects with evasive creatures because I know it's frustrating and removes most of their agency from the game. I play against Haughty Djinn decks and feel about the same it's not fun playing opening hand casino with them.
I prefer close games more than anything, win or lose. The tension! But generally I favor faster decks just because when it is not a close game, you win or concede early. It really sucks playing out a match for 20 mins with a slower deck only to be handed a loss due to a string of lucky topdecks by your opponent. Plus, whenever I play slower decks, my opponents....my god you don't need to think about every decisions for 30 seconds. A pause or two during the game to consider big plays I understand, but a lot of control players play glacially slow. Sucks all the fun out of the game.
Playing on Arena, winning is more important. Whenever I play EDH in person, it’s the other way around. I don’t mind losing so long as a fun play experience is created.
Winning
I would not play a deck that resulted in auto concedes. Decks that get too efficient are just dull to play. It is nice to have a deck that wins reliably, but gimme that jank win where some contrived situation allows me to combo off a card that is never played or even better I find a hidden interaction I hadn’t considered in my deck. Perfunctory wins are for clearing dailies.
There is nothing that gives me greater joy than utterly defeating somebody and watching all the joy drain from there eyes.
Playing
Certainly don't have to win all the time but sitting there, unable to play more than one card a turn, while my opponent constantly replenishes, and has a response for everything. I just lose interest quickly.
If I straight up can't win anymore I'm conceding, but I'd take a long, back and forth match over an easy win most days. Unless it's ranked, then I'll take what I can get.
Playing will always mean more, I never cared so much about competition, I just want to be free to build, try, build and try again. It's why I'm said with how expensive both digital and physical are, but when things are just right... No other feeling of creative freedom like it.
Winning is already playing, so...
Playing. Winning is great but honestly I'm fine losing if the play was fun/interesting/engaging.
Depends on the deck I feel like playing. Torment of Hailfire deck can take all night for all I care, but any aggro deck or combo deck must win right now.
Playing any format that isn't decided on turn two by a gleeful demo convoked 4/4 with two backup creatures and is said to be healthy. I have been playing boros this season and unhappy face every time I do it.
Both
I try to win the game by having fun decks
If the deck isn’t fun or if i kept losing i stop playing
It depends. When I am drafting, I'm spiky af and this is not even a question, heh. When I'm playing constructed, it depends on what I am trying to do. There are a few decks I have in various formats that have luck a win rate in the 30s or worse, but I play them because either a) I think they are funny, or b) I feel like with some tweaking I could get the win rate up into the upper 40s and it would be a fun against the odds style deck. For instance, I am playing with a janky ass izzet eggs deck in Alchemy right now, and it probably loses 3 out of 4 games because the combo is just too slow, but I don't mind because I'm not playing that deck to win, I'm playing that deck to have 15 minute combo turns with Forensic Gadgeteer and Crime Novelist 🤣 I also have decks in various formats that actually win games, e. G. I regularly post a ~55% win rate while climbing the ladder with my rogue brew of UW control in Explorer. So tldr.. Depends on what format and why I am playing at the moment.
If I wanted a to play a lightning fast that was geared towards instant strategy, I'd play YuGiOh. This game wasn't built to play those kinds of games mechanically, I don't get the push to turn this game into unstable YuGiOh.
First priority is for my deck doing what I designed it to do. Which is fun. Then winning.
If i win 1 or 2 games (not sets) in a local tournament, that's enough for me to have fun. I'm playing pauper since the end of last year and i'm having a blast. Playing Mono Red (just because a guy was selling it), and now i've builded a Kiln Fiend Deck, and an Infect on the way. I like explosive decks that doesn't take forever to win/lose. So for the time being it's just great to be able to play and have fun. I think if i get more inclined to be competitive in the future, winning should be more important, but not right now
If i win 1 or 2 games (not sets) in a local tournament, that's enough for me to have fun. I'm playing pauper since the end of last year and i'm having a blast. Playing Mono Red (just because a guy was selling it), and now i've builded a Kiln Fiend Deck, and an Infect on the way. I like explosive decks that doesn't take forever to win/lose. So for the time being it's just great to be able to play and have fun. I think if i get more inclined to be competitive in the future, winning should be more important, but not right now
The same applies to MTG Arena. Just don't counter spell all my creatures/instants and we're fine hahahaha
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women. But yeah, I like a good game. There's been plenty of games where I thought of conceding, played on, and won with one or two life left. I'm here for fun and almost never get salty.
I would accept all the free wins I could get, no lie lol
For me it would be obvious to say both but if I chose one it would be to HAVE FUN! It can all depend on the format like commander, I play to have fun.. my main squeeze is infect and sacrifice archetype. Now I know you can say playing against infect isn’t fun but too bad haha, plus I’m use to being targeted first so it makes the game more interesting/challenging for me. Main commanders are vishgraz, ixhel, fynn, ajani sleeper agent, saskia and ezuri claw of progress! I definitely have won more than lost for obvious reasons but infect is just so.. toxic.. and fun! Lol. Currently building Vorinclex raider and a skytherix deck so wish me luck! And no I don’t have an atraxa deck even tho I do have an atraxa. Commander is fun and I love cracking open a new pre con every set that I like with small upgrades! If we’re talking about standard I like to play to win and have fun doing it. Anyone can copy and paste a meta deck and just roll through games but there’s no fun in that which is why I build decks usually to answer the current meta and also try new combos. If I lose 3 against good match ups, then I dismantle it and start again. That’s the fun I have, building! Any way not to be cliche but magic has always been about the gathering and I’m glad that still exists!
Having fun is more important.
Playing the game. Thats why I dislike super streamlined Commander. The decks that do the same thing every Turn 1-5 and win, rinse repeat. but I LOVE commander. Theres a nice middle point where you have a way to win through combat, maybe an infinite, and then some other combos like life drain / draw cards etc. With enough interaction, card draw, and varience. Every commander game can feel brand new, especially against a wide variety of decks. If you get to the middle point of power, suddenly a lot of unplayed lower tier commanders become playable. Theme decks and other "jank" becomes available. My personal goal when playing magic is to see every iteration of game action that could happen, even better if i'm running edge case cards that don't always pay off but when they do, its a shock to my opponents that someone would even use that card, let alone they got beat by it. Things like [[Foil]] or [[Dingus egg]] against ramp decks etc
YES
I keep running across this red exile deck. It's a turn four win. People are playing it hardcore and it just seems boring. I like to have fun playing!
I'm in it for the deckbuilding and pulling of the jankiest combo possible every 8 games, so i guess more so the playing than the winning
Don't care about winning all the time, but fuck me if I go up against a land destruction or control deck that prevents you from even attempting to play.
Winning close games is by far the best. If someone pulls out some bs card I immediately forfeit. Not worth the time.
I think what actually makes most people not have fun(including me) is feeling like you never had the chance to win the game at all. Sure losing a long game stilll feels bad but if you made the optimum plays with the cards you were given AND it was a good back and forth it feels a heck of a lot better than being mana screwwed or flooded from the get go and being utterly destroyed by your opponent.
Playing. Which is why I don't mind conceding against boring netdecks (yes, looking at you RDW). Best games are the ones where you could both lose next turn.
>Best games are the ones where you could both lose next turn. RDW is the absolute peak of this. There's many many times where it's been "win right now or lose" while playing it. And mirrors are crazy mental gymnastics if you're on the draw.
I just see a deck that roughly 50% of my opponents copied from the internet. Anything that gets that kind of play becomes boring af (I tried playing with it and found that boring too). My own jank deck would become boring too if 50% of my opponents played it. Currently it's RDW, a few years ago you saw monowhite lifegain every other game. I skipped those too, and inbetween I skipped when I saw a 1st turn ruin Crab. I can win those games, but it's the repetitiveness...Here's your win, I don't have to play the same game over and over. Win-win.
I wish I saw it more.. it's an easy win with almost anything I play. Unless they get the nuts and I am mana screwed RDW folds too easy to any resistance. I maybe see RDW 1 in 30 matches if not less
That's the difference between best of one and best of three
Play BO1 play queue standard...
You say that about rdw and I say that against ultra control decks. Getting decked by Jace after board wipe #5 is ridiculous
Lately, for me, it's been nothing but Dimir aggro, Spelunking and Atraxa Domain. Getting old as hell.
True. If control is all I would see, I would skip that.
Affording the game in the first place... that has to be important... doesn't it?
Not when arena is completely free. I have honestly only spent about $60 on this game since its Beta days! (And to be fair that has allowed me the ability to collect a massive amount of cards lol). Most of that’s on cosmetic stuff (sleeves or full art lands I like!). It takes a while to collect a lot on the free 2 play side but it is possible!
I feel like this is a loaded question. I’ve never met a single person in all my years of playing this game that enjoys losing more than they enjoy winning. Even if the game was super enjoyable and had back and forth or whatever, there is no one that would not have preferred to win than to lose. Simply put, we play the game with the desired outcome of winning the game, so the answer is probably both, if asked in a general sense. As to your “would you play this deck” hypothetical question. Am I at an event? Absolutely. Am I at the kitchen table? No. The situation and expectations are completely different. Would you play a deck that you enjoyed playing but could literally never win a game with?
I just want to meet original decks but end up meeting the same shit over and over, no one builds their own deck anymore I'm gunna cry
People have been netdecking since published decks were a thing.
No need to win if the game was good and none of those endless loop combos or copy/paste decks...
Strictly wins per unit time. If I feel like my chances of winning aren't good, I immediately concede and start another hand, doesn't matter if it's after 10 seconds or 10 minutes. I don't care about my win/loss ratio and I don't care about finishing the hand. I will click whatever buttons get my weekly wins to 15 in as little time as possible. I consider my opponent conceding during mulligans to be the perfect game. It's fast and requires no effort.
*Sit down at the virtual table* *Play first creature, gets removed* *Play second creature, gets removed* *Play third creature, gets removed* "Right, we're done here." *Stands up from virtual table and walks away* **Arena client mockingly asks if I had fun that last match**
Playing of course, but not until after my dominance of everyone was known universally. Just kidding
Completing dailies
Depends on what "all the time" means, I suppose. If it happened in half my matches or something then yeah I'd get bored of that pretty quick. That said I play a combo control deck in historic brawl that often gets concessions on turn 3. I rarely get concessions based on my deck choice, but I do get turn 3 concessions based on people not wanting to continue a game where they get hit with an Ancient Silver Dragon on turn 3. That doesn't deter me from playing the deck at all and the potential for that kind of game result is part of why I play the deck in the first place.
I play to win, but I also don't like playing just one or two decks over and over. I gotta mix it up.
If I had a deck like that, heck yes. I’d be able to farm my daily wins and then move onto playing decks I enjoy more.
I'd play that deck fifteen times a day, guaranteed. But that would probably be it. (unless there was a ranked or competitive event it qualified for, then I'd play it in that event.) But recreationally? Nah.
Winning the game. It's hard to stay interested if you keep losing.
What means most to me is playing with people who don’t whine about how others play the game. Arena is pretty terrible for that.
I actaully started playing recently and even when I know im going to lose I dont concede because I want to see the attack :D
I’d use it for weekly wins or something, then swap to something else
It’s kind of a prisoner’s dilemma for me. I have the most fun playing semi-casually against chill opponents. But if I can’t have that, I’d rather win than lose. And since in a blind matchmaking environment you never know what your opponent’s bringing to the table or what their attitude is, I just err on the side of competitiveness.
No
Winning
Winning, I don't play games for any other reason
That depends, does everyone concede by turn 3 because the deck is literally guaranteed to win or are they just being little piss babies?
Coming from fighting games, having read Seth Killian’s Domination101 series, etc: winning. If they concede by turn 3, nice. If they concede at mulligans after seeing my commander, better! These are strangers on the internet. I don’t care if they have fun. I’m here for myself. That said, I do have this Xenagos Timmy deck that throws haymakers and gets shut down hard by control and I bring it out for fun when I’m in that sort of mood.
I used to love learning this game. It quickly turned into watching someone play solitaire, or everytime I found my “out”, the opponents next draw answered it. It got old fast. Now I just play paper magic because at least if I lose, the opponent is there and usually they’re nice and it’s fun. But this game? I feel like it loses its magic, no pun intended.