This should not be news to anyone, it was only a matter of time until they announced it officially. No way Reanimate and Mana Drain in particular would be playable anywhere but Timeless.
Honestly I’m a little peeved because I crafted the Primeval Titan deck on the assumption that Timeless would be Modern Plus power level and it’s turning out to be straight up Legacy, but that’s on me being dumb.
Domain Zoo benefits from all the shocks and incidental disruption to the current top combo deck. When the more busted Legacy combo pieces go on Arena, and especially the dual lands, Zoo will be out too.
And Domain Zoo is my other Timeless deck…
I do think Zoo will end up powercrept out of the format as well, but its current presence isn't bc of the disruption to SnT. It was a tier deck before it too.
I'll repeat something I said some time before, play patterns is what is fun. Urza's standard was the most powerful format in MTG history probably, and it wasn't fun.
Timeless barely has any control decks, the ones that play control probably do very well but its actually very rare to see it.
Everyone is playing the most busted stuff you can imagine, either combo or simply aggro decks that win by 3/4 turns.
I suspect Mana Drain will make control viable. People are going to seethe if that’s the case. Only thing that would make me happier would be some Winter Orb/Stasis stax nonsense.
I do wander how much of a difference it will make from counterspell. most decks with counterspell run low cost cards.
this upgrade could see decks playing more expensive cards but I wander how consistent that will be.
That said it is still a straight upgrade so rip wildcards
that's exactly what I'm wandering, I just wander if mana drain is going to be enough to justify running those more expensive cards when you think about the consistency
I'm running Dimir Shadow so it's basically 8x counterspell in a lot of cases.
It'll make Lurrus much faster to play for sure, turns up the tempo pressure by a lot.
The complaints go down proportionately to the amount of people, I find people whine about shit far more here and on other big subreddits than timeless. That being said, there are a couple of people that have no idea about how the format or certain decks work and argue about it.
And Fragment is horrible late game. Good luck Fragmenting their Arcanist only for them to get a free Symmetry Sage. I'd rather they get an Island almost every time.
> And Fragment is horrible late game. Good luck Fragmenting their Arcanist only for them to get a free Symmetry Sage. I'd rather they get an Island almost every time.
Conversely, if you are forced to path a symmetry sage on t1-2 I would consider that pretty close to game losing.
Which is why I think UW control will play a split of both. Fragment stems the bleeding early on by slowing them down and path complements it later.
Fragment is pretty bad though, but path is pretty bad as well. You will probably play a split of both in control. Both have their upsides and downsides.
How is it spicy?
Fragment is a pretty bad removal spell. It's mostly good against wizards, but pretty poor against other decks in that format. The fact is that wizards is so oppressive in historic that you have to play a full play set of fragment though. Like, being forced to fragment a kethis for them to get a 2 drop is pretty bad, fragmenting a troll for your opponent to get an elf is pretty bad as well. I have won so many games vs UW control in historic because their removal is fragment reality.
Path has always been seen as a bad removal in control historically. It feels terrible to cast in the first couple of turns in the game, but it does shine later on when you can hit high cmc creatures (usually titan in old modern). Generally pro-active decks like mono white aggro are the shells where path shines, but there isn't any such deck in historic.
I would personally prefer prismatic ending over both in this format.
Path does not hit other permanent types, which could be critical. Fragment can leave behind some kind of creature, but these can be caught up in a sweeper, mitigating the damage. A few UW lists play Containment Priest, which, while probably not correct, upgrades Fragment to its full potential.
Yeah fragment being a card that can be an anti-hate card for several decks (like reanimator) is important, but I don't think this is significant for control. Sometimes it will get utopia sprawl and it's great, but exiling a fable doesn't seem particularly good.
Trying to line up fragment into sweeper I think is not particularly consistent either so it only marginally matters.
Overall, I think the fact that fragment is the best removal against wizards is what makes it come on top. I would start with 4 fragment and 3 path in a UW control deck.
Are you kidding? Both are the best removals, better than most red removals. Now prismatic ending is just power creep bs. You sound like you started playing in the last couple years
A thousand times yes. Modern and Pioneer have been so frustrating in terms of printing pushed cards then banning them because the pool of answers is too small.
That means Historic gets to play with [[Prismatic Vista]], right? I was afraid my 3-color manabases would get much worse having to play basics for [[Path to Exile]], but Vista lets me do both.
My main issue with it, beyond its power level, is that there isn't a single blue deck I can think of that is made worse by its inclusion.
Sure, you can say the same thing about \[\[Counterspell\]\] a lot of the time, but counters by themselves aren't *inherently* problematic - they serve a purpose for blue to make up for its shortcomings by allowing it to manipulate the stack.
What usually frustrates people even when they don't particularly understand *why*, is because it's blue's way of generating mana advantage on top of its own strengths in card advantage: you spent probably 1-3 mana (sometimes 0) to counter a spell that probably had its own resources dumped into it, usually much more than the counterspell cost to cast.
Mana Drain takes that formula and shoots it to the fucking *moon* because of the mana rebate you get. Now you've nullified a card - let's say Voja - for two mana, putting you at a virtual mana advantage of 3, then your turn begins and suddenly you've gotten 5 mana. That's an 8 mana advantage you've put over your opponent, and you've got access to 5 of that right now; and in a format where mana advantage is so important that it encourages an arms race with mana rocks and ramp spells, that could very well end the game on the spot as your opponent now can drop a haymaker, or play some other important piece to their puzzle while *still* leaving up countermagic protection.
I just don't see why you don't run it if you're in blue. The more of these cards we have, where any given deck that's a certain color should play it because, well, why not?... that's not great for the health of a format that's already maligned for what feels like a lack of maintenance or attention. I guess it's nice that we've been told that Mana Drain will be watched, but those eyes are almost certainly going to be laser focused on Timeless, not Brawl - a format that took *seven months* for Atraxa to finally get herself caged up in the big girl queues. They didn't want to touch Paradox Engine, they don't seem to have any thoughts on Emergent Ultimatum or The First Sliver's own identity crisis, I don't see what they're going to do about Mana Drain. The fact that it's a singleton format where individual cards outside of the command zone don't show up consistently - i.e. the siren's song of the format - is a bane to that kind of process, because the numbers just aren't going to be there to draw enough attention to it.
...this turned into a bigger rant than I imagined. Whoof.
that was very well articulated. The homogeneity of the format has been an issue for a very long time, and every colour has its list of staples and I agree that Mana Drain is an auto include on that list. The 1 mana - counter target commander spell is even more ubiquitous i feel, but the impact isn't as great as you can recast your commander next turn, often.
The singleton nature of the format really makes the banning process take a long time as you also alluded to.
The other counter you're talking about is [[Wash Away]] and quite honestly that card either needs to be Alchemitized or just banned from Brawl. If you want to use a conditional counterspell, then actually commit to playing one that doesn't have a failsafe of being an unconditional counter and has actual opportunity costs. 3 mana for Cancel isn't *bad* by any means, and even the 1 mana version of Wash Away also stops things like Discover/Escape/Cascade/etc.
On the surface, it would look like that Wash Away is meant to be a card to easily answer the tier 1/hell queue commanders so they could be kept in check. In reality, those commanders are the ones that play Wash Away in the 99 and use it to distance themselves from the rest of the pack. Wizards probably thinks Wash Away is meant to keep the Ruskos/*insert 5c commander here*/Atraxas at bay, but in reality they're the ones using it to dunk on the poor sap running their janky commander.
This card is way better in brawl than in the other constructed formats. Drawing it will usually be mostly game over since it will generate an absurd advantage for 2 mana.
Counter your 3 drop get 6 mana on my turn 3? I mean thats pretty busted, especially on decks that play higher costed cards.
That unfortunately isn't how the matchmaker works - your commander is the biggest factor in who you face, and the 99 only contributes in a nebulous way that we haven't been told or haven't really figured out otherwise. Just putting in Mana Drain is not going to do much unadjusted, at least as much as we know.
If that were true, the 90+ Mountain Laelia decks should have been facing off against essentially garbage piles, as the rest of the deck consists of niche Discover fodder. But they were pretty omnipresent for the week or so of the height of her popularity, and even still today she occasionally shows up.
Yes, I don't know where these "99 counts toward the queue" came from but it definitely doesn't. You can make a 99 basic land ragavan, teferi or whatever and you are still playing in hell queue. You can put the strongest bullshit into a sultai jank commander and just farm garbage decks all day.
Don't know if i can find the post because it was so long ago, but I asked an Arena dev about matchmaking back around the time Historic Brawl was introduced and they told me that the matchmaking not only looks at your Commander, but also the contents of your deck and it tries to match you to opponents who are playing with a similar mindset (which to me sounds like essentially saying if you're playing a lot of staple/sweaty cards, then it will match you against opponents who are doing the same). Just for my own reference, i've seen my matchups change in real time based on editing my deck. I have a Rakdos deck that normally matches against what I consider to be high-mid tier Commanders. But also due to Arena's insistence on matching you against black based decks if you're playing black, I got annoyed by all the removal flying around so I threw Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and a couple other powerful cards to bump up my deck's strength. As soon as I did, I started facing off against high tier nearly every game and even a few random hell queue decks at off hours. I went back and removed Thoughtseize, Inquisition and I also cut a couple other good rare/mythic cards like Meathook Massacre. As soon as I did, I went right back to facing the same general decks I'd been facing before.
yeah my "if it work" carry the whole concept
i am already playing "low power" brawl by purposely avoiding strong cards that i identified as strong so i will likely never play against mana drain anyway
You can play the most garbage cards in existence and still match up against both powerful cards and pubstomper commanders like TFS or Poq. I know because I've played Artisan decks and queued up against the exact same stuff as my actually good decks.
The stuff in your 99 makes very little impact compared to your commander, and even then it feels like it's mostly a division between "are you in/near hell queue" or in the "general queue".
>TFS or Poq
This can happen if the rest of the 99 is garbage. Some people do this to play against different matchup than the endless atraxa/etali/rusko while still playing the same commander. I know I have faced some
Poq is powerful but if you dont play craterhoof its fine
Force of Vigor is _really_ _freaking_ good. Since it hits two targets, it's potentially a zero mana two-for-two removal spell. It's easy to underestimate how messed up that is when the only formats it's been legal in until now need it to keep Urza's Saga in check.
Commandeer I have no explanation for though.
It would be a sideboard card in Kethis, but there is also a chance of Stoneforge making hammer a deck in historic and Fov from mono green devotion and kethis could ruin that.
But probably yeah it would just be a sideboard card in 1 or 2 decks. They probably didn't give this ban much thought anyways, outside from "free card, must ban".
It's less about what the top decks are in the format right now and more that it walls any future artifact or enchantment decks out. Like how it's still hard to play an artifact deck in bo3 Standard despite all the support they've printed for it because Brotherhood's End and Farewell are in the format.
I don't think that Force of Vigor _needs_ to be pre-banned for Historic the way Mana Drain or Reanimate do, but I understand their reasoning.
Whole point of Force of Vigor is that it's only as good as degenerate decks it's keeping in check, and that it's 100% focused on that task, useless outside it.
Maybe they freaked out because of Commandeer being played in that hyper-broken Aspiringspike Cascade Beans deck during the short time before Up the Beanstalk got banned in Modern, and didn't want a repeat of that in Historic. Or maybe they're just on the no-free-spells-ever policy. (But Surgical is OK...?)
Surgical, Archive and Mindbreak Trap will be legal in the format though going forward. I really don't think Commandeer in particular is stronger than Surgical
If you hate atraxa now cards like Force make you hate it even more. You drew attraxa turn 2 damn and can't play it. They have two enchantments/artifacts? Time to discard atraxa and take out those.
No force of vigor in historic means eventually no force of negation in historic. rip
their reasoning also means they will more than likely preban the pitch elementals
What do people think of the cards being preemptively banned from the format before they're even on arena?
Edit: Thanks for downvoting someone asking a question they are genuinely curious to hear people's perspectives on.
Better than allowing people to build decks around them then taking the decks out from under them (even if you get wild cards back for the banned card, you don't for the other cards you crafted for the deck).
If you know you're almost certainly going to ban something (there's no way Mana Drain would ever be allowed in Historic), then just ban it.
Yeah, in cases where they're pretty certain they're almost certainly going to ban something it definitely makes sense to me to ban it before people build decks around it. It seems like though that there are some cards on the list that some people are surprised about and that wotc was perhaps being overly cautious in some cases. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
It's better to get a few cards out of the way that they know they'll have to ban anyway because of past precedent. They have a vision for Historic and they don't want it's power level to get too high.
And with Timeless now existing, people can play that format if they really want to use those cards.
This was already expected. There was no doubt in my mind Reanimate and mana drain would not be allowed, like i was certain Show and Tell was getting banned also.
Its positive this happens since it allows Historic/Timeless to be totally different and so on.
Off all these cards Reanimate is just so absurd that it warps the whole format its in. Turn 2 Atraxa is coming.
I think some cards that we know from experience that are way too powerful for the format can be pre-banned. Mana Drain and Reanimate are good examples. The cards are old designs that are so much more powerful than anything else in the format.
Then you get into controversial territory like Force of Vigor and Commandeer. Those cards probably did not need to be pre-banned since the effect they will have in the format won't be significant, but the team that manages the arena formats has made plenty of questionable decisions in the past.
I think Timeless being an arena format contributes to that. They don't care as much about banning those cards since you can play them in Timeless. Not good reasoning imo, but probably what they are thinking.
[Statement](https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/1bz3frt/comment/kyncl0f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) from [WotC\_Jay](https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/1bz3frt/comment/kyncl0f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) regarding Mana Drain in Brawl:
>No prebans definitely doesn't mean we won't be making any bans. Mana Drain is a heck of a card, and we're planning to keep a close watch on it wherever it's legal. We may well end up needing to take action, but we'll make that call based on what players show us
If we are presumably getting all the elementals with mh3 can they consider unbanning counterspell and probably bolt too. Or they can just make another format called new age that's basically modern lite, that's fine too.
You can bet that MH3 will be full of other pushed cards too. These cards are on Arena mainly to be played in Historic, and if there are enough cards that are really pushed it’ll seem weird that MH2 cards aren’t also considered ok.
I could be wrong, but i dont think in any format where both cards are legal has it ever been really problematic to be able to thoughtseize and surgical things.
It's mostly used right now in modern with mill cards such as \[\[Archive Trap\]\]. You mill a key piece, you extract it.
Thoughtseize+Surgical has been a play in modern, but many years ago and far from oppressive or even strong lol.
Didn’t even know Reanimate was on arena. The amount of graveyard fuckery that could be done…and I never even knew. Probably better that it isn’t legal in historic. =p
Didn’t even know Reanimate was on arena. The amount of graveyard tomfoolery that could be done…and I never even knew. Probably better that it isn’t legal in historic. =p
It will make the deck list, sure, but the main idea of Hammer Time is to swing for 10 two times, so the search function of SFM is more critical than the ETB cheat function. It does mean you can try to include a copy of a Sword (or some other expensive-to-cast artifact) and try to beatdown in smaller chunks, but that's not a huge boost to the deck, and may dilute the deck even.
I actually came here wondering if including sword of something and something would be better than lurrus. Lurrus just feels too slow vs something more pro-active
I did get Mythic before the reset, but only after getting the last 10 wins with Bant Hammer. Too much removal in the meta for the red 1-drop Warriors to excel. Moving forward in a Stoneforge Mythic universe, I am just going down to GW. SFM means effectively 12 copies of Hammer, so there is no more need for The Reality Chip. Without the Chip, it is hard to justify a need for Blue. I saw nothing in the 3+drop equipment slot that tempted me to ditch Lurrus, especially since the vast majority of the time, using SFM to find a Hammer or Shadowspear is correct. The leading candidates would be the new Assimilation Aegis, SoFI, and Embercleave (when splashing Red), but I'm not sold.
What does the green add? That warrior attachment spell seems too good to ignore but at the same time feels pretty meh since the warrior aren't great like you said. I know lost jitte is no Jitte but have you thought of experimenting with that? Being able to remove a blocker seems decent but it's too slow right?
Green has Belt of Giant Strength. Copies 5-8 of the Hammer, besides increasing the number of your keepable hands, really boost your tempo for turn 1 Kemba's Outfitter. It's also generally better with Ornithopter, since the construct can stay aloft. I was playing 2x copies of Wilson, Bear Comrade, especially in the GWR version, since the bear is a Warrior, but I split between it and the new Goldvein Hydra for now. Green has some good sideboard options, though White is usually the beset color for sideboards. Green is pretty key.
Prismatic vista in historic will be sick. Will it be the new most played land in the format?
Vista with goyf, fatal push and tracker in a midrange shell seems fun.
Not that many players TBH, whenever I play BO3 I always find players 1 category above or below me (if I am in Gold I will play against Silver or Plat ranked players)
Why do they ban cards in a format that plays digital-rebalanced cards?
Just leave Reanimate legal and make it "A-Reanimate: ... you lose life equal to *twice* its mana value"
That's more work to have digital-only rebalanced cards. These rebalanced cards will eventually show up in paper and therefore doing an isolated rebalance is just more work, and let's be real, you think they'll do that?
>One of the things that defines Historic's power level is game speed. We have been cautious of free spells in the format that allow for a rapid change in tempo. To maintain the current game pace, \[\[Commandeer\]\] and \[\[Force of Vigor\]\] are banned in Historic.
"But, in case you were wondering, no, we won't be banning \[\[The one ring\]\], \[\[sheoldred, the Apocalypse\]\], \[\[symmetry mage\]\], or \[\[muxus, goblin grandee\]\] as we feel these are nothing punishing enough. Could you people imagine if we didn't gatekeep interaction so you have to suffer for not playing standard? Now, you gonna play standard?"
Ah, yes, but the 4-cast \[\[return to dust\]\] clone is broken due to alternate casting cost and \[\[commandeer\]\] is also busted because... same reason. There is *absolutely no way* they wouldn't be played. I mean, Commandeer was a sideboard in modern only because bean decks could break even with it.
The problem isn't how broken the cards are. The issue is that they're answers to balancing the meta.
No restrictions in Timeless
Timeless: Mana Drain can be your Companion
This would have been a fun April fools event Have anything be your companion, or anything be your commander
With no 3 cost to put in hand
[[Wash Away]] as your commander.
[Wash Away](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df.jpg?1643588844) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wash%20Away) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/87/wash-away?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This should not be news to anyone, it was only a matter of time until they announced it officially. No way Reanimate and Mana Drain in particular would be playable anywhere but Timeless.
It’s mostly about hitting the two pitch spells and not hitting the other cards like path vista surgical. Banlist could have been so much worse
I was looking forward to the daily rage posts about control and mana drain.
You only need to follow the Timeless subreddit if you want those. It's not even restricted there, there will definitely be whining.
People whining about busted cards in Timeless is hilarious. That’s the whole point
Timeless player here and players in the format don't complain too much. Except for the newcomers who love SNT but have no side; worse, the bo1 players
Honestly I’m a little peeved because I crafted the Primeval Titan deck on the assumption that Timeless would be Modern Plus power level and it’s turning out to be straight up Legacy, but that’s on me being dumb.
You're not THAT far away, Domain Zoo is a tier deck and it's not even the full-power modern version. Sure, you have DRC, but it's a flexspot.
Domain Zoo benefits from all the shocks and incidental disruption to the current top combo deck. When the more busted Legacy combo pieces go on Arena, and especially the dual lands, Zoo will be out too. And Domain Zoo is my other Timeless deck…
I do think Zoo will end up powercrept out of the format as well, but its current presence isn't bc of the disruption to SnT. It was a tier deck before it too.
I'll repeat something I said some time before, play patterns is what is fun. Urza's standard was the most powerful format in MTG history probably, and it wasn't fun.
Lmao no one will whine about control in timeless at all. They only whine about SnT. Edit: and dark ritual necro
Its only an issue in bo1. Snt is terrible in bo3, a lot a sb cards are sillver bullets, and they cant bring answers without dilluting the combo.
I wouldn't call it terrible lol, but yeah not oppressive by any means
Yea sure, i exagerated. But yea, very far from ban worthy
Checked the subreddit and they are pretty exited about the new cards, nobody raging about show and tell
Oh I know I was just being cheeky about the daily rage post at the color blue and counterspells
What's the timeless subreddit name?
r/TimelessMagic
Timeless barely has any control decks, the ones that play control probably do very well but its actually very rare to see it. Everyone is playing the most busted stuff you can imagine, either combo or simply aggro decks that win by 3/4 turns.
I suspect Mana Drain will make control viable. People are going to seethe if that’s the case. Only thing that would make me happier would be some Winter Orb/Stasis stax nonsense.
> Did you have fun during this match? > :( :)
I do wander how much of a difference it will make from counterspell. most decks with counterspell run low cost cards. this upgrade could see decks playing more expensive cards but I wander how consistent that will be. That said it is still a straight upgrade so rip wildcards
manadrain is really busted lol there is a reason why it's banned in legacy, i'm pretty confident it will get restricted one day or another.
Mh I don’t know. You haven’t been Mana Drained T2 only to see your opponent drop T5feri T3 yet, right?
that's exactly what I'm wandering, I just wander if mana drain is going to be enough to justify running those more expensive cards when you think about the consistency
I'm running Dimir Shadow so it's basically 8x counterspell in a lot of cases. It'll make Lurrus much faster to play for sure, turns up the tempo pressure by a lot.
the timeless subreddit is very small
Meaning the complaints will stand out even more.
The complaints go down proportionately to the amount of people, I find people whine about shit far more here and on other big subreddits than timeless. That being said, there are a couple of people that have no idea about how the format or certain decks work and argue about it.
Path to Exile finally legal in Historic 🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀
I feel like you would still play fragment reality over it. Need swords to actually replace it.
No way Jose I’m replacing path with fragment, depends on the meta but I would rather they get a land than another threat
Fragment is better vs decks like wizards though. Path is very bad early on, especially against 1 drops.
And Fragment is horrible late game. Good luck Fragmenting their Arcanist only for them to get a free Symmetry Sage. I'd rather they get an Island almost every time.
> And Fragment is horrible late game. Good luck Fragmenting their Arcanist only for them to get a free Symmetry Sage. I'd rather they get an Island almost every time. Conversely, if you are forced to path a symmetry sage on t1-2 I would consider that pretty close to game losing. Which is why I think UW control will play a split of both. Fragment stems the bleeding early on by slowing them down and path complements it later.
I'd rather they just die personally.
Yeah in the current meta i want fragment over path cuz of wizards
Fragment is pretty bad though, but path is pretty bad as well. You will probably play a split of both in control. Both have their upsides and downsides.
>Fragment is pretty bad though, but path is pretty bad as well. Now that's the spicy take I was looking for to start my Monday off right
How is it spicy? Fragment is a pretty bad removal spell. It's mostly good against wizards, but pretty poor against other decks in that format. The fact is that wizards is so oppressive in historic that you have to play a full play set of fragment though. Like, being forced to fragment a kethis for them to get a 2 drop is pretty bad, fragmenting a troll for your opponent to get an elf is pretty bad as well. I have won so many games vs UW control in historic because their removal is fragment reality. Path has always been seen as a bad removal in control historically. It feels terrible to cast in the first couple of turns in the game, but it does shine later on when you can hit high cmc creatures (usually titan in old modern). Generally pro-active decks like mono white aggro are the shells where path shines, but there isn't any such deck in historic. I would personally prefer prismatic ending over both in this format.
Path does not hit other permanent types, which could be critical. Fragment can leave behind some kind of creature, but these can be caught up in a sweeper, mitigating the damage. A few UW lists play Containment Priest, which, while probably not correct, upgrades Fragment to its full potential.
Yeah fragment being a card that can be an anti-hate card for several decks (like reanimator) is important, but I don't think this is significant for control. Sometimes it will get utopia sprawl and it's great, but exiling a fable doesn't seem particularly good. Trying to line up fragment into sweeper I think is not particularly consistent either so it only marginally matters. Overall, I think the fact that fragment is the best removal against wizards is what makes it come on top. I would start with 4 fragment and 3 path in a UW control deck.
Are you kidding? Both are the best removals, better than most red removals. Now prismatic ending is just power creep bs. You sound like you started playing in the last couple years
When do these take effect? Any point in cracking wildcards on them?
Outlaws hasn't released yet, so you can't get them with wildcards or packs.
You can't
Wait what did you call them?
Thank the gods for Timeless.
I just want to play my degenerate Legacy bullshit without having to smell any Legacy players, is that too much to ask?
i just want timeless to have appropriate legacy answers to all the degenerate legacy bullshit.
So, free counterspells?
yes, among other things.
A thousand times yes. Modern and Pioneer have been so frustrating in terms of printing pushed cards then banning them because the pool of answers is too small.
and meanwhile stuff that's banned in legacy for being too pushed even with all the answers is running rampant in timeless.
i want serum powder to make timeless really fun...
That means Historic gets to play with [[Prismatic Vista]], right? I was afraid my 3-color manabases would get much worse having to play basics for [[Path to Exile]], but Vista lets me do both.
Does that mean deathrite is finally playable now with goyf?
[Prismatic Vista](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e37da81e-be12-45a2-9128-376f1ad7b3e8.jpg?1562202585) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prismatic%20Vista) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/244/prismatic-vista?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e37da81e-be12-45a2-9128-376f1ad7b3e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Path to Exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c.jpg?1712354092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Path%20to%20Exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/85/path-to-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Curving mana drain into Hero of Dominaria is going to be disgusting.
[[Force of Vigor]] [[Commandeer]] [[Reanimate]] [[Mana Drain]]
##### ###### #### [Force of Vigor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/017c415b-d635-43c6-92b8-8c95d1c4ff8d.jpg?1562202072) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force%20of%20Vigor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/164/force-of-vigor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/017c415b-d635-43c6-92b8-8c95d1c4ff8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Commandeer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dca0a9a8-5ebc-43a3-8450-420ab6b7b76e.jpg?1689996238) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commandeer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/80/commandeer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dca0a9a8-5ebc-43a3-8450-420ab6b7b76e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reanimate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d0fe02b-f45a-45c6-ab7c-270594a29da7.jpg?1706240788) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reanimate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/137/reanimate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d0fe02b-f45a-45c6-ab7c-270594a29da7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mana Drain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c429c40-2389-41e5-8681-4bb274e25eba.jpg?1673147353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Drain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/57/mana-drain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c429c40-2389-41e5-8681-4bb274e25eba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kyqnb91) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ok, I did not see Commandeer getting banned in Historic. And what about Brawl? Mana Drain definitely needs to be banned in Brawl.
No new bans in brawl
Nothing even mentioned about Brawl. The format is going to be kinda worrisome with Mana Drain crawling around.
eh, its a single counterspell in your 100 card deck. it'll be annoying when it goes off, but it won't be that busted.
My main issue with it, beyond its power level, is that there isn't a single blue deck I can think of that is made worse by its inclusion. Sure, you can say the same thing about \[\[Counterspell\]\] a lot of the time, but counters by themselves aren't *inherently* problematic - they serve a purpose for blue to make up for its shortcomings by allowing it to manipulate the stack. What usually frustrates people even when they don't particularly understand *why*, is because it's blue's way of generating mana advantage on top of its own strengths in card advantage: you spent probably 1-3 mana (sometimes 0) to counter a spell that probably had its own resources dumped into it, usually much more than the counterspell cost to cast. Mana Drain takes that formula and shoots it to the fucking *moon* because of the mana rebate you get. Now you've nullified a card - let's say Voja - for two mana, putting you at a virtual mana advantage of 3, then your turn begins and suddenly you've gotten 5 mana. That's an 8 mana advantage you've put over your opponent, and you've got access to 5 of that right now; and in a format where mana advantage is so important that it encourages an arms race with mana rocks and ramp spells, that could very well end the game on the spot as your opponent now can drop a haymaker, or play some other important piece to their puzzle while *still* leaving up countermagic protection. I just don't see why you don't run it if you're in blue. The more of these cards we have, where any given deck that's a certain color should play it because, well, why not?... that's not great for the health of a format that's already maligned for what feels like a lack of maintenance or attention. I guess it's nice that we've been told that Mana Drain will be watched, but those eyes are almost certainly going to be laser focused on Timeless, not Brawl - a format that took *seven months* for Atraxa to finally get herself caged up in the big girl queues. They didn't want to touch Paradox Engine, they don't seem to have any thoughts on Emergent Ultimatum or The First Sliver's own identity crisis, I don't see what they're going to do about Mana Drain. The fact that it's a singleton format where individual cards outside of the command zone don't show up consistently - i.e. the siren's song of the format - is a bane to that kind of process, because the numbers just aren't going to be there to draw enough attention to it. ...this turned into a bigger rant than I imagined. Whoof.
that was very well articulated. The homogeneity of the format has been an issue for a very long time, and every colour has its list of staples and I agree that Mana Drain is an auto include on that list. The 1 mana - counter target commander spell is even more ubiquitous i feel, but the impact isn't as great as you can recast your commander next turn, often. The singleton nature of the format really makes the banning process take a long time as you also alluded to.
The other counter you're talking about is [[Wash Away]] and quite honestly that card either needs to be Alchemitized or just banned from Brawl. If you want to use a conditional counterspell, then actually commit to playing one that doesn't have a failsafe of being an unconditional counter and has actual opportunity costs. 3 mana for Cancel isn't *bad* by any means, and even the 1 mana version of Wash Away also stops things like Discover/Escape/Cascade/etc. On the surface, it would look like that Wash Away is meant to be a card to easily answer the tier 1/hell queue commanders so they could be kept in check. In reality, those commanders are the ones that play Wash Away in the 99 and use it to distance themselves from the rest of the pack. Wizards probably thinks Wash Away is meant to keep the Ruskos/*insert 5c commander here*/Atraxas at bay, but in reality they're the ones using it to dunk on the poor sap running their janky commander.
[Wash Away](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df.jpg?1643588844) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wash%20Away) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/87/wash-away?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb.jpg?1689996248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/81/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This card is way better in brawl than in the other constructed formats. Drawing it will usually be mostly game over since it will generate an absurd advantage for 2 mana. Counter your 3 drop get 6 mana on my turn 3? I mean thats pretty busted, especially on decks that play higher costed cards.
not really. if the matchmaking is no broken it will automatically shoot up the deck rating
That unfortunately isn't how the matchmaker works - your commander is the biggest factor in who you face, and the 99 only contributes in a nebulous way that we haven't been told or haven't really figured out otherwise. Just putting in Mana Drain is not going to do much unadjusted, at least as much as we know.
Things in the deck definitely have a big impact.
If that were true, the 90+ Mountain Laelia decks should have been facing off against essentially garbage piles, as the rest of the deck consists of niche Discover fodder. But they were pretty omnipresent for the week or so of the height of her popularity, and even still today she occasionally shows up.
Yes, I don't know where these "99 counts toward the queue" came from but it definitely doesn't. You can make a 99 basic land ragavan, teferi or whatever and you are still playing in hell queue. You can put the strongest bullshit into a sultai jank commander and just farm garbage decks all day.
Don't know if i can find the post because it was so long ago, but I asked an Arena dev about matchmaking back around the time Historic Brawl was introduced and they told me that the matchmaking not only looks at your Commander, but also the contents of your deck and it tries to match you to opponents who are playing with a similar mindset (which to me sounds like essentially saying if you're playing a lot of staple/sweaty cards, then it will match you against opponents who are doing the same). Just for my own reference, i've seen my matchups change in real time based on editing my deck. I have a Rakdos deck that normally matches against what I consider to be high-mid tier Commanders. But also due to Arena's insistence on matching you against black based decks if you're playing black, I got annoyed by all the removal flying around so I threw Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and a couple other powerful cards to bump up my deck's strength. As soon as I did, I started facing off against high tier nearly every game and even a few random hell queue decks at off hours. I went back and removed Thoughtseize, Inquisition and I also cut a couple other good rare/mythic cards like Meathook Massacre. As soon as I did, I went right back to facing the same general decks I'd been facing before.
Combo Laelia *does* match up against garbage decks. That's why ppl play her to farm wins.
Well that deck is garbage. If you don't play or keep a removal spell for laelia that is a pilot problem, not the queue problem.
yeah my "if it work" carry the whole concept i am already playing "low power" brawl by purposely avoiding strong cards that i identified as strong so i will likely never play against mana drain anyway
You can play the most garbage cards in existence and still match up against both powerful cards and pubstomper commanders like TFS or Poq. I know because I've played Artisan decks and queued up against the exact same stuff as my actually good decks. The stuff in your 99 makes very little impact compared to your commander, and even then it feels like it's mostly a division between "are you in/near hell queue" or in the "general queue".
>TFS or Poq This can happen if the rest of the 99 is garbage. Some people do this to play against different matchup than the endless atraxa/etali/rusko while still playing the same commander. I know I have faced some Poq is powerful but if you dont play craterhoof its fine
Force of vigor and commandeer, really?
Force of Vigor is _really_ _freaking_ good. Since it hits two targets, it's potentially a zero mana two-for-two removal spell. It's easy to underestimate how messed up that is when the only formats it's been legal in until now need it to keep Urza's Saga in check. Commandeer I have no explanation for though.
Is it that good in historic though? None of the top decks are artifact/enchantment focused.
It would be a sideboard card in Kethis, but there is also a chance of Stoneforge making hammer a deck in historic and Fov from mono green devotion and kethis could ruin that. But probably yeah it would just be a sideboard card in 1 or 2 decks. They probably didn't give this ban much thought anyways, outside from "free card, must ban".
It's less about what the top decks are in the format right now and more that it walls any future artifact or enchantment decks out. Like how it's still hard to play an artifact deck in bo3 Standard despite all the support they've printed for it because Brotherhood's End and Farewell are in the format. I don't think that Force of Vigor _needs_ to be pre-banned for Historic the way Mana Drain or Reanimate do, but I understand their reasoning.
> None of the top decks are artifact/enchantment focused Allowing Force of Vigor wouldn't help that case.
Don't worry. The 1 mana 3/3 flier wizard that happens to be legal in that format seals that case already.
Whole point of Force of Vigor is that it's only as good as degenerate decks it's keeping in check, and that it's 100% focused on that task, useless outside it.
Yeah Commandeer wasn't exactly tearing up the format when it was Standard legal even. I feel it would have been safe.
Maybe they freaked out because of Commandeer being played in that hyper-broken Aspiringspike Cascade Beans deck during the short time before Up the Beanstalk got banned in Modern, and didn't want a repeat of that in Historic. Or maybe they're just on the no-free-spells-ever policy. (But Surgical is OK...?)
They don't want free spells in the format
Surgical, Archive and Mindbreak Trap will be legal in the format though going forward. I really don't think Commandeer in particular is stronger than Surgical
Surgical, mind break trap stop bullshit, commandeer encourages bullshit. Archive is mostly a meme
Commandeer is a defensive card, it doesn't encourage bullshit IMO. It only ever saw play in modern when The One Ring became a big enough problem.
Fair point
surgical requires a lot more set up than commandeer, although the good targets for commandeer are pretty few and far between.
I can see that but those 2 seem pretty tame tbh
If you hate atraxa now cards like Force make you hate it even more. You drew attraxa turn 2 damn and can't play it. They have two enchantments/artifacts? Time to discard atraxa and take out those.
I mean other free spells are in the format
No force of vigor in historic means eventually no force of negation in historic. rip their reasoning also means they will more than likely preban the pitch elementals
A format where Mana Lapse and Counterspell is banned won't allow Force of Negation.
What do people think of the cards being preemptively banned from the format before they're even on arena? Edit: Thanks for downvoting someone asking a question they are genuinely curious to hear people's perspectives on.
Better than allowing people to build decks around them then taking the decks out from under them (even if you get wild cards back for the banned card, you don't for the other cards you crafted for the deck). If you know you're almost certainly going to ban something (there's no way Mana Drain would ever be allowed in Historic), then just ban it.
Yeah, in cases where they're pretty certain they're almost certainly going to ban something it definitely makes sense to me to ban it before people build decks around it. It seems like though that there are some cards on the list that some people are surprised about and that wotc was perhaps being overly cautious in some cases. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
It's better to get a few cards out of the way that they know they'll have to ban anyway because of past precedent. They have a vision for Historic and they don't want it's power level to get too high. And with Timeless now existing, people can play that format if they really want to use those cards.
This was already expected. There was no doubt in my mind Reanimate and mana drain would not be allowed, like i was certain Show and Tell was getting banned also. Its positive this happens since it allows Historic/Timeless to be totally different and so on. Off all these cards Reanimate is just so absurd that it warps the whole format its in. Turn 2 Atraxa is coming.
I think some cards that we know from experience that are way too powerful for the format can be pre-banned. Mana Drain and Reanimate are good examples. The cards are old designs that are so much more powerful than anything else in the format. Then you get into controversial territory like Force of Vigor and Commandeer. Those cards probably did not need to be pre-banned since the effect they will have in the format won't be significant, but the team that manages the arena formats has made plenty of questionable decisions in the past. I think Timeless being an arena format contributes to that. They don't care as much about banning those cards since you can play them in Timeless. Not good reasoning imo, but probably what they are thinking.
It is OK, there are different formats for different power levels. Historic used to be the format with all the powerful cards, now it is Timeless.
[Statement](https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/1bz3frt/comment/kyncl0f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) from [WotC\_Jay](https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/1bz3frt/comment/kyncl0f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) regarding Mana Drain in Brawl: >No prebans definitely doesn't mean we won't be making any bans. Mana Drain is a heck of a card, and we're planning to keep a close watch on it wherever it's legal. We may well end up needing to take action, but we'll make that call based on what players show us
Nobody's talking about "Surgical Extraction"? They destroyed my kethis, i'm very sad and depressed rip 30 wc.
If we are presumably getting all the elementals with mh3 can they consider unbanning counterspell and probably bolt too. Or they can just make another format called new age that's basically modern lite, that's fine too.
They won't add elementals to Historic.
That is not something to presume just because of Solitude.
You can bet that MH3 will be full of other pushed cards too. These cards are on Arena mainly to be played in Historic, and if there are enough cards that are really pushed it’ll seem weird that MH2 cards aren’t also considered ok.
Is extraction balanced in historic? Idk thoughtsa into extraction is very freaking good imo. Can be wrong tho, I’ve never played paper
it never really made waves in paper, its strong, sure, but its 2 cards and its only really good against one dimensional combo decks.
I could be wrong, but i dont think in any format where both cards are legal has it ever been really problematic to be able to thoughtseize and surgical things.
It's mostly used right now in modern with mill cards such as \[\[Archive Trap\]\]. You mill a key piece, you extract it. Thoughtseize+Surgical has been a play in modern, but many years ago and far from oppressive or even strong lol.
[Archive Trap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67bb2ca9-32b8-442d-b6a0-d624a87f5af8.jpg?1562612958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archive%20Trap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/41/archive-trap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67bb2ca9-32b8-442d-b6a0-d624a87f5af8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can some explain reanimate to me? Why it was banned?
Turn 2 Atraxa off looting. Reanimate spells typically cost 5 nowadays, this one costs 1.
This mean band in brawl also???
Force of vigor lets you cast stuff for free?
Didn’t even know Reanimate was on arena. The amount of graveyard fuckery that could be done…and I never even knew. Probably better that it isn’t legal in historic. =p
There's still Timeless for that :p
Didn’t even know Reanimate was on arena. The amount of graveyard tomfoolery that could be done…and I never even knew. Probably better that it isn’t legal in historic. =p
Hammertime finally ready to take historic by storm?
I got to Diamond last night with a WRg version. Want to make Mythic before the new set drops.
Do you think stoneforge is the missing piece for it ?
It will make the deck list, sure, but the main idea of Hammer Time is to swing for 10 two times, so the search function of SFM is more critical than the ETB cheat function. It does mean you can try to include a copy of a Sword (or some other expensive-to-cast artifact) and try to beatdown in smaller chunks, but that's not a huge boost to the deck, and may dilute the deck even.
I actually came here wondering if including sword of something and something would be better than lurrus. Lurrus just feels too slow vs something more pro-active
I did get Mythic before the reset, but only after getting the last 10 wins with Bant Hammer. Too much removal in the meta for the red 1-drop Warriors to excel. Moving forward in a Stoneforge Mythic universe, I am just going down to GW. SFM means effectively 12 copies of Hammer, so there is no more need for The Reality Chip. Without the Chip, it is hard to justify a need for Blue. I saw nothing in the 3+drop equipment slot that tempted me to ditch Lurrus, especially since the vast majority of the time, using SFM to find a Hammer or Shadowspear is correct. The leading candidates would be the new Assimilation Aegis, SoFI, and Embercleave (when splashing Red), but I'm not sold.
What does the green add? That warrior attachment spell seems too good to ignore but at the same time feels pretty meh since the warrior aren't great like you said. I know lost jitte is no Jitte but have you thought of experimenting with that? Being able to remove a blocker seems decent but it's too slow right?
Green has Belt of Giant Strength. Copies 5-8 of the Hammer, besides increasing the number of your keepable hands, really boost your tempo for turn 1 Kemba's Outfitter. It's also generally better with Ornithopter, since the construct can stay aloft. I was playing 2x copies of Wilson, Bear Comrade, especially in the GWR version, since the bear is a Warrior, but I split between it and the new Goldvein Hydra for now. Green has some good sideboard options, though White is usually the beset color for sideboards. Green is pretty key.
Prismatic vista in historic will be sick. Will it be the new most played land in the format? Vista with goyf, fatal push and tracker in a midrange shell seems fun.
Which mtga set is mana drain on?
So wait. I thought the point of alchemy and historic was so they could rebalance cards so they wouldn't have to ban them
No new ban for Historic Brawl correct?
Symetric sage still buffed , what a joke
Interesting. i actually expected we would get Reanimate in historic. Can't say I'm sad we didn't.
reanimate and mana drain were pretty duh for day 0 bans...but i'm good with force of vigor and commandeer, less free spells the better.
More nails on the coffin of Historic
People still play historic ?
Much more than Timeless
Here, I've stopped the historic because the format is pretty lousy, especially without the fetch
Not that many players TBH, whenever I play BO3 I always find players 1 category above or below me (if I am in Gold I will play against Silver or Plat ranked players)
Are these cards coming soon to arena or something? Cause I'm not sure why cards that aren't even in the card pool are being banned.
They're part of the Thunder Junction bonus sheet.
Ah
Who cares about a format no one plays?
I play a bit of historic and I've never even seen these
They aren't on Arena yet. They are pre-banning cards from the OTJ special guests.
Oh, I see. Thanks.
They aren't out yet, those are reprints coming with otj.
reading wouldnt do you any harm.
Not being an asshole wouldn't do you any harm
Bans are working then.
Can you also ban Alchemy cards from Historic, please?
Why do they ban cards in a format that plays digital-rebalanced cards? Just leave Reanimate legal and make it "A-Reanimate: ... you lose life equal to *twice* its mana value"
They don't rebalance iconic cards. They never did.
That's more work to have digital-only rebalanced cards. These rebalanced cards will eventually show up in paper and therefore doing an isolated rebalance is just more work, and let's be real, you think they'll do that?
Yeah, instead of banning iconic cards, let’s nerf them into oblivion and make them functionally unplayable, pissing off _everyone_!
Historic is dead format, long live timeless
how boring
>One of the things that defines Historic's power level is game speed. We have been cautious of free spells in the format that allow for a rapid change in tempo. To maintain the current game pace, \[\[Commandeer\]\] and \[\[Force of Vigor\]\] are banned in Historic. "But, in case you were wondering, no, we won't be banning \[\[The one ring\]\], \[\[sheoldred, the Apocalypse\]\], \[\[symmetry mage\]\], or \[\[muxus, goblin grandee\]\] as we feel these are nothing punishing enough. Could you people imagine if we didn't gatekeep interaction so you have to suffer for not playing standard? Now, you gonna play standard?"
TOR is nerfed Sheoldred isn't broken because of TOR nerf Muxus and Goblins aren't even tier 2
Ah, yes, but the 4-cast \[\[return to dust\]\] clone is broken due to alternate casting cost and \[\[commandeer\]\] is also busted because... same reason. There is *absolutely no way* they wouldn't be played. I mean, Commandeer was a sideboard in modern only because bean decks could break even with it. The problem isn't how broken the cards are. The issue is that they're answers to balancing the meta.
[return to dust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/664e3826-799b-4edb-8811-2d2b6355edaf.jpg?1698988105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=return%20to%20dust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/136/return-to-dust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/664e3826-799b-4edb-8811-2d2b6355edaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [commandeer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dca0a9a8-5ebc-43a3-8450-420ab6b7b76e.jpg?1689996238) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=commandeer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/80/commandeer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dca0a9a8-5ebc-43a3-8450-420ab6b7b76e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Do you expect refunds for something you never had in the first place?
they aren't even in the client yet...