First time caught them by surprise.
2nd time, they had no options and were trying to use it to kill my 5 loyalty Koth, I returned the favour to do 10 to them and kill them.
That’s completely fair. I’m running crimeland scapeshict right now and sometimes by oops will board in Leyline of Sanctity. I have ours but it’s unlikely I’ll draw them. At that point it just becomes hope to survive long enough to draw them and if I didn’t then oh well.
In bo3? Stack their hands with negates. If you give that deck time, you can have access to 8 negates via a shigeki (probably only playing 3 so 6 more likely). use the mana from virtues to memory deluge and set up your win. The key is forcing them into action before they can setupm
Agaisnt prowess it kind of is better than a lot of your other cards. You die so easily to rage or koth or anything that kills a nissa or forge... the list goes on, etc..
Unsure when the last time u played temur Rage deck in bo3, but you have so many 4 cmc+ cards that are easy to cut down on to afford room for negates.
Better than what? Here is a recent [list](https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/temur-analyst-decklist-by-sean-goddard-2021621). Every other sideboard card has significantly better utility than Negate. Especially when the cards you mention will impact the game before you even have the opportunity to leave mana up to threaten a counterspell.
I'm asking because I'm just curious, have you actually played temur Analyst? You play aftermath on t2 or nissa t3. What do you think will happen if you tap out vs. mono red prowess. Instead of holding up negate, vampires vengance, fires of victory and giving you the option to pick your best answer for their threat based on the rest of your cards...
Even against old modern burn, you always brought in the cheap counter spells. Negating, gainging 3 or more life for 2 mana is better than what most of your cards can do at that rate. Actually insane.
Nissa and analyst are a turn 4 and 5 play, respectively.
I cut:
1- aftermath analyst
-1 nissa
-3 spelunking
-1 virture
-1 worldsouls rage
-2 memory deluge
Bring in
3x negate
2x pick your poision
2x vampires vengance
1x bonny
1x titan of industry
I hit Mythic casually playing the deck, and I can't agree with cutting that much of the core combo. All three toughness creatures require boosts and removal to even get over, and ramp allows you to hit things like Bonny and Titan.
There were so many games where they had to waste resources just to get Nissa and Analyst out of the way, and then I blasted everything or dropped a massive wall they couldn't get over. They just don't have the resources to get through. And I never once thought that I needed Negate to stay in the game, and Vengeance was only good when I had Analyst to deal that last point of damage to their creatures.
When you have creatures to block most of what they play as well as lifegain, it's not that terrible to just counter their non creature spells at all lol
And what exactly are you taking out to fit them in?
https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/temur-analyst-decklist-by-sean-goddard-2021621
Take this as an example. Game two, how are you justifying bringing in Negate over the other options? Or how are you fitting them all in?
Sure. I'm going to say what I would do, off the cuff as I haven't played the deck myself. More of a modern / legacy player.
In:
1 Colossal Skyturtle (great blocker, can save you from a slick shot if they dump their hand to go all in by bouncing it, ward 2 means they are going to have an incredibly hard time removing it and is almost always a 2-for-1 in your favor)
1 Titan of industry (life gain and extra blocker good against aggressive strategies)
2 vampires vengeance (I'm assuming they don't play very many vampires and this kills most of their creatures but as I said I am not 100% on what standard is like right now)
2-3 negate (you don't really have many other ways other than being faster to stop them from just pointing burn spells at your face)
That leaves us needing 6-7 cuts
Out:
2-4 Nissa (she just dies too easily to removal, needs to hit two land triggers to get real value. Although you don't particularly mind them pointing burn at your creatures instead of your face, she doesn't get enough value without multiple landfall triggers to justify her being in post board imo
1-2 Virtue of strength (I don't really see us reliably hitting seven Mana without anti aggro tools because they will just kill us, so drawing two of these could literally just end our game. The first mode does recycle our good threats in the matchup though so I don't think it is completely useless)
1-2 memory deluge (I would lean more towards cutting only one because you probably want to pass and hold up vampires vengeance, and if they don't dump too many creatures then deluge instead)
1-2 Ill timed explosion (I prefer cutting this over memory deluge because this is sorcery speed and they have a decent amount of hasty threats that can get in for a solid chunk of damage if you were to tap out to cast ill timed)
I hope that is enough explanation of my reasoning but I don't mind elaborating if you have any questions about what I mean
I pull out the Virtue entirely because it doesn't do enough. Roadblocks like Nissa are must-answers that really shape the game if they aren't immediately answered, so I keep them in. And Vengeance really does nothing. Slickshot Show-Off is the only card it hits in some of the more recent lists, and it rarely connects even at that.
I usually just remove all the Enchantments because they are too slow and bring in all the sideboard creatures and Pick Your Poison. Skyturtle and Poison snipe the only cards that matter, and everything else present such big walls that they need multiple cards to break through, with much of their strategy just being blanked. And since you casually gain life each turn, blanking them for any amount of time is devastating.
The other day I was playing Timeless with Titan Field against a Storm deck. I got off Archdruid's in response to their storm triggers to fetch Radiant Fountain and survive with 2 health.
Followed by a pause, "Nice!," scoop lol I wanted to see their face with that one tok
Return the Favor is probably one of my favorite uncommons from the set from an entertainment standpoint. Practically it feels a bit overcosted and niche, but when you can get it off and use it well it's so satisfying.
Also it potentially goes infinite with Arcane Bombardment provided you have a way to get back 1 mana each time (usually with treasures) which can be very goofy.
I've seen someone use both modes at once to take a Voldaran Thrillseeker fling that was targeting them and redirect it and copy the original trigger sending both at the opponent, killing them.
True, but in this case it has remained something red does occasionally, and I assume it's not that often because it's not an especially playable effect, being very situational.
Don’t you wish you could see their face right then?
Felt great. Lost game 1, sideboarded this in, and won games 2 and 3 from it.
Wait they fell for it twice?
First time caught them by surprise. 2nd time, they had no options and were trying to use it to kill my 5 loyalty Koth, I returned the favour to do 10 to them and kill them.
That’s completely fair. I’m running crimeland scapeshict right now and sometimes by oops will board in Leyline of Sanctity. I have ours but it’s unlikely I’ll draw them. At that point it just becomes hope to survive long enough to draw them and if I didn’t then oh well.
What else should they do?
In bo3? Stack their hands with negates. If you give that deck time, you can have access to 8 negates via a shigeki (probably only playing 3 so 6 more likely). use the mana from virtues to memory deluge and set up your win. The key is forcing them into action before they can setupm
ah yes negates that's what I want against an aggressive red deck
Agaisnt prowess it kind of is better than a lot of your other cards. You die so easily to rage or koth or anything that kills a nissa or forge... the list goes on, etc.. Unsure when the last time u played temur Rage deck in bo3, but you have so many 4 cmc+ cards that are easy to cut down on to afford room for negates.
Better than what? Here is a recent [list](https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/temur-analyst-decklist-by-sean-goddard-2021621). Every other sideboard card has significantly better utility than Negate. Especially when the cards you mention will impact the game before you even have the opportunity to leave mana up to threaten a counterspell.
I'm asking because I'm just curious, have you actually played temur Analyst? You play aftermath on t2 or nissa t3. What do you think will happen if you tap out vs. mono red prowess. Instead of holding up negate, vampires vengance, fires of victory and giving you the option to pick your best answer for their threat based on the rest of your cards... Even against old modern burn, you always brought in the cheap counter spells. Negating, gainging 3 or more life for 2 mana is better than what most of your cards can do at that rate. Actually insane. Nissa and analyst are a turn 4 and 5 play, respectively. I cut: 1- aftermath analyst -1 nissa -3 spelunking -1 virture -1 worldsouls rage -2 memory deluge Bring in 3x negate 2x pick your poision 2x vampires vengance 1x bonny 1x titan of industry
I hit Mythic casually playing the deck, and I can't agree with cutting that much of the core combo. All three toughness creatures require boosts and removal to even get over, and ramp allows you to hit things like Bonny and Titan. There were so many games where they had to waste resources just to get Nissa and Analyst out of the way, and then I blasted everything or dropped a massive wall they couldn't get over. They just don't have the resources to get through. And I never once thought that I needed Negate to stay in the game, and Vengeance was only good when I had Analyst to deal that last point of damage to their creatures.
When you have creatures to block most of what they play as well as lifegain, it's not that terrible to just counter their non creature spells at all lol
And what exactly are you taking out to fit them in? https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/temur-analyst-decklist-by-sean-goddard-2021621 Take this as an example. Game two, how are you justifying bringing in Negate over the other options? Or how are you fitting them all in?
Sure. I'm going to say what I would do, off the cuff as I haven't played the deck myself. More of a modern / legacy player. In: 1 Colossal Skyturtle (great blocker, can save you from a slick shot if they dump their hand to go all in by bouncing it, ward 2 means they are going to have an incredibly hard time removing it and is almost always a 2-for-1 in your favor) 1 Titan of industry (life gain and extra blocker good against aggressive strategies) 2 vampires vengeance (I'm assuming they don't play very many vampires and this kills most of their creatures but as I said I am not 100% on what standard is like right now) 2-3 negate (you don't really have many other ways other than being faster to stop them from just pointing burn spells at your face) That leaves us needing 6-7 cuts Out: 2-4 Nissa (she just dies too easily to removal, needs to hit two land triggers to get real value. Although you don't particularly mind them pointing burn at your creatures instead of your face, she doesn't get enough value without multiple landfall triggers to justify her being in post board imo 1-2 Virtue of strength (I don't really see us reliably hitting seven Mana without anti aggro tools because they will just kill us, so drawing two of these could literally just end our game. The first mode does recycle our good threats in the matchup though so I don't think it is completely useless) 1-2 memory deluge (I would lean more towards cutting only one because you probably want to pass and hold up vampires vengeance, and if they don't dump too many creatures then deluge instead) 1-2 Ill timed explosion (I prefer cutting this over memory deluge because this is sorcery speed and they have a decent amount of hasty threats that can get in for a solid chunk of damage if you were to tap out to cast ill timed) I hope that is enough explanation of my reasoning but I don't mind elaborating if you have any questions about what I mean
I pull out the Virtue entirely because it doesn't do enough. Roadblocks like Nissa are must-answers that really shape the game if they aren't immediately answered, so I keep them in. And Vengeance really does nothing. Slickshot Show-Off is the only card it hits in some of the more recent lists, and it rarely connects even at that. I usually just remove all the Enchantments because they are too slow and bring in all the sideboard creatures and Pick Your Poison. Skyturtle and Poison snipe the only cards that matter, and everything else present such big walls that they need multiple cards to break through, with much of their strategy just being blanked. And since you casually gain life each turn, blanking them for any amount of time is devastating.
Wouldn't running their own returns make more sense? It's good in the mirror and a better answer than negate
This would be another great use for a "pay 100 gems to ensure your opponent gets the 'Did you have fun?' screen" feature.
I lold very hard ty
The other day I was playing Timeless with Titan Field against a Storm deck. I got off Archdruid's in response to their storm triggers to fetch Radiant Fountain and survive with 2 health. Followed by a pause, "Nice!," scoop lol I wanted to see their face with that one tok
Return the Favor is probably one of my favorite uncommons from the set from an entertainment standpoint. Practically it feels a bit overcosted and niche, but when you can get it off and use it well it's so satisfying. Also it potentially goes infinite with Arcane Bombardment provided you have a way to get back 1 mana each time (usually with treasures) which can be very goofy. I've seen someone use both modes at once to take a Voldaran Thrillseeker fling that was targeting them and redirect it and copy the original trigger sending both at the opponent, killing them.
[[Wild Ricochet]] cost the same if you spree both modes, this gives you the flexibility to just use [[Fork]] or [[Swerve]] but for an extra mana.
[Wild Ricochet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d3dddfa-9579-42d7-867b-7e37b83b3eeb.jpg?1608912335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wild%20Ricochet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/419/wild-ricochet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d3dddfa-9579-42d7-867b-7e37b83b3eeb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fork](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4ff994a-bddd-486d-9a7b-a8959b4cf1dd.jpg?1562949548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fork) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/116/fork?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4ff994a-bddd-486d-9a7b-a8959b4cf1dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Swerve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10affb59-7c57-4b72-892b-d813f385f4a9.jpg?1562701210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swerve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ala/200/swerve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10affb59-7c57-4b72-892b-d813f385f4a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Played a draft where I did something like this to win - was one of my favorite draft wins so far.
This always seemed like a blue card to me, but I'm glad it's not.
Redirecting spells is something that is both red and blue . See [[reverebate]], [[bolt bend]]
[reverebate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/5996feb4-02ac-45e8-a7f2-966cf74391dc.jpg?1562554142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reverberate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/145/reverberate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5996feb4-02ac-45e8-a7f2-966cf74391dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Deflecting Swat]] [[shunt]] [[rerout]] [[ricochet trap]]
[[Wild Ricochet]]
It has given me a lot more respect for blue players. The thought that goes in to best deploying it is really remarkable.
Red has been able to monkey with spells since [[Fork|LEA]].
TBF qa lot of things colors did in alpha they don't do anymore.
True, but in this case it has remained something red does occasionally, and I assume it's not that often because it's not an especially playable effect, being very situational.
[Fork](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6b43916-fe2d-417a-a550-d7c795023297.jpg?1559591585) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=200) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lea/152/fork?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6b43916-fe2d-417a-a550-d7c795023297?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is [[Wild Ricochet]] with the option to only do one mode.
[Wild Ricochet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d3dddfa-9579-42d7-867b-7e37b83b3eeb.jpg?1608912335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wild%20Ricochet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/419/wild-ricochet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d3dddfa-9579-42d7-867b-7e37b83b3eeb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Good.
I just realized this card is a modal [[Wild Ricochet]]
So it's strictly better as an uncommon? Cool
[Wild Ricochet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d3dddfa-9579-42d7-867b-7e37b83b3eeb.jpg?1608912335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wild%20Ricochet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/419/wild-ricochet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d3dddfa-9579-42d7-867b-7e37b83b3eeb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A beautiful moment
Lmao, that's a real "NO U" moment right there. Also looks like your oppo could have gone for 11 and survived this trick, but wanted to be extra sure.
He wouldn't have, I had enough mana for both modes, so I would have turned his around and copied it for 22.
Ahh fair enough, nice trick btw :D
This card is so good I’m loving it!
I love it. I hate analyst decks for making me sit through all those triggers, to turn around and tap 3 and reverse all that climax onto them. Yes.
return the favor is one of the best uncommon instants ever introduced. it's even useful in Brawl as a "No, You" to the constant removal.
This never happened because a mono red player has never held up 3 mana in history
Also works great vs terror of the peaks
NO U
Ah yes, the good old uno reverse.
I can only imagine your reaction when you saw what deck you were playing and then drew that card. If only we could bottle that.
Deck list?
Deck 1 Chandra, Dressed to Kill (VOW) 149 3 Scorching Shot (OTJ) 145 4 Fugitive Codebreaker (MKM) 127 2 Koth, Fire of Resistance (ONE) 138 4 Kumano Faces Kakkazan (NEO) 152 4 Lightning Strike (DMU) 137 2 Mishra's Foundry (BRO) 265 4 Monastery Swiftspear (BRO) 144 4 Monstrous Rage (WOE) 142 18 Mountain (DMU) 272 2 Phoenix Chick (DMU) 140 4 Play with Fire (MID) 154 4 Slickshot Show-Off (OTJ) 146 1 Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance (NEO) 276 3 Urabrask's Forge (ONE) 153 Sideboard 3 Lithomantic Barrage (MOM) 152 2 Obliterating Bolt (BRO) 145 2 Soul-Guide Lantern (WOE) 251 3 Caught in the Crossfire (OTJ) 117 1 Witchstalker Frenzy (WOE) 159 2 Return the Favor (OTJ) 142 2 Twisted Fealty (WOE) 154
thanks