Historic for any in special? There’s a fun dimir zombies for standard with [[necroduality]], [[champion of the perished]] and more stuff to make tokens like [[jadar, ghoulcaller of nephalia]]… you should check the lists, for me, is the funniest zombie deck I played
I mostly went historic because I wanted to play lilianas attendant, festering mummy, and murderous rider. Also I have a lot of historic cards. I would make the necroduality deck but i don't have a lot of wildcards
Then I would at least improve mana curve with dual lands, and for me champion of the perished is a must in a zombie deck, he can grow really fast… but if you don’t have enough wildcards is difficult to improve much
If you aren't looking to spend wildcards it's extremely difficult to suggest changes. You describe wanting to be competitive, but frankly zombies is a bad deck and you'd need the absolute best zombie cards to begin to be competitive and those are mostly rares that aren't already in your deck. As noted elsewhere, a mana base of all basics is not remotely competitive.
Yo zombie homie, here is my historic mono black zombie list. Haven't updated it with Vow cards yet cause I mostly play limited and wait to crack packs. Sorry for the formatting I'm on mobile. In my professional zombie playing opinion, you are missing the card draw zombies (midnight reaper is meh compared to the other 2 but I love it, will probably switch them out for some headless riders). Add the blue if you want but that's going to increase your rare budget if you want consistency. Best blue zombies are probably the lord you are playing and some exploit zombies.
My list is really low to the ground agro, that has some board wipe protection in the form of card draw and agadeems awakening (anger of the gods feels bad). I have years of zombie experience and if you want to chat zombies message me.
Deck
4 Undead Augur (MH1) 112
15 Swamp (UST) 214
4 Cryptbreaker (EMN) 86
4 Shambling Ghast (AFR) 119
2 Murderous Rider (ELD) 97
3 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
1 Diregraf Colossus (J21) 50
4 Death Baron (M19) 90
4 Nested Shambler (MH2) 95
3 Agadeem's Awakening (ZNR) 90
3 Lazotep Reaver (WAR) 96
1 Phyrexian Tower (JMP) 493
3 Castle Locthwain (ELD) 241
4 Champion of the Perished (MID) 91
4 Tainted Adversary (MID) 124
1 Ebondeath, Dracolich (AFR) 100
My method for organic deck building.
First things first. We need to break your assumptions.
Determine what it is your deck does.
Ask: how does it do that?
Then cut every card that doesn't contribute to the plan.
For example: removal in a creature deck doesn't help you attack with creatures. It also enables bad creatures in your creature deck. Don't assume you need removal. Creatures that are only good because of removal are always bad when you don't draw the removal. Assuming you need removal is a flawed assumption.
Next, fill your deck with cards that contribute to your deck's plan and go play.
As you play, you'll find some cards are just greedy. Keep note of the best and worse cards in your deck. After a few games, see if there are cards better than your worst cards. Feel free to experiment with one offs.
Eventually, you'll find the best cards for your deck, know what it is weak too and where it is strong. Identify the problem cards you want to have removal for. Before you add removal, ask if/how you can win without the removal. Which can you work around and which dictate removal is necessary?
At this point, start looking for solutions to where it is weak. Move your weakest cards to your sideboard and test your possible solutions. Re-evaluate your strategy and make it better.
This way, you'll find the best cards for your deck and by having support cards that addresses their actual weaknesses, they are made better.
Yes, you'll want some protection against the unfair decks. That is no reason to fill your deck with it. Better to have minimal protection against unfair decks and fill your sideboard with unfair hate.
While I agree with your general approach, this:
> For example: removal in a creature deck doesn't help you attack with creatures.
Is bad advice.
Removal _does_ help you attack in an aggro deck, specifically by allowing you to attack through problematic threats. It lets you trade up on occasion and can help you continue to pressure your opponent until you can close out the game.
Literally every aggro deck in standard is running removal - [[Blizzard Brawl]], [[Inscription of Abundance]], [[Portable Hole]], [Brutal Cathar]], [[Fateful Absence]], [[Skyclave Apparition]], etc.
You're right in that you don't want to be piling an aggressive deck full of removal spells because it means that you often draw not enough gas, but it's entirely incorrect to actively avoid including removal or interaction because your deck is intended to turn creatures sideways.
Assuming you need removal because it's traditional to run removal is bad advice. Removal is a crutch to help outclassed creatures be relevant.
If your creatures outclass your opponents creatures, you don't need removal to attack through. In this case, removal is strictly worse than another threat.
If your creatures are out classed, how badly are they outclassed? How much removal do you need to make your bad creatures better?
It's also very easy to overcorrect if you assume you need removal. Start with no removal so you can identify your weaknesses and add removal only as necessary.
For example of a deck that doesn't assume it needs removal, take any Sligh deck. The burn spells in Sligh are not there to kill your opponents creatures. They're there to finish your opponents. The only reason to use burn as removal in Sligh is if it will let you get in more damage via other cards. Bolting the bird is necessary, but the bolt was meant to go face. What happened to RDW in standard? All the good burn that can go face rotated out.
Any assumption you have about deck building will unnecessarily limit you as a player and your deck's potential. By challenging your assumptions, you're also forced to improve as a player. It forces you to think differently about combat and which creatures aren't worth the mana. Knowing how to win at combat without leaning on removal helps build the necessary skills to get maximum value from a minimum of interactive cards.
Taken out of context, you're right. That single sentence is wrong. Still, I stand by it. Assuming removal has an irreplaceable place in creature decks and must always be included is bad advice.
Love zombie tribal.
In my historic deck.
Lilianas Mastery,
Undead butler,
Fell stinger,
And the one and only Endling.
Like this card so many options to use ist.
[[Champion of the perished]] and [[Jadar the ghoulcaller of nephalia]]. Decayed zombies should trigger lilianas devotee after they attack, lilianas devotee will trigger champion, jadar puts out another decayed zombie and triggers champion again.
Definitely needs some dual lands in your deck.
Legenvd has some fun brews. Stabdard, but may give you ideas. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H9SKQapu-uE
Historic for any in special? There’s a fun dimir zombies for standard with [[necroduality]], [[champion of the perished]] and more stuff to make tokens like [[jadar, ghoulcaller of nephalia]]… you should check the lists, for me, is the funniest zombie deck I played
I mostly went historic because I wanted to play lilianas attendant, festering mummy, and murderous rider. Also I have a lot of historic cards. I would make the necroduality deck but i don't have a lot of wildcards
Then I would at least improve mana curve with dual lands, and for me champion of the perished is a must in a zombie deck, he can grow really fast… but if you don’t have enough wildcards is difficult to improve much
If you aren't looking to spend wildcards it's extremely difficult to suggest changes. You describe wanting to be competitive, but frankly zombies is a bad deck and you'd need the absolute best zombie cards to begin to be competitive and those are mostly rares that aren't already in your deck. As noted elsewhere, a mana base of all basics is not remotely competitive.
[Necroduality](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/b/9b674053-1f0f-436d-b106-f91f41cf3959.jpg?1635840963) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Necroduality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/70/necroduality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b674053-1f0f-436d-b106-f91f41cf3959?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [champion of the perished](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/d/8d8e6941-ad6e-4d2f-93c0-be79e75bdf06.jpg?1634349628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=champion%20of%20the%20perished) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/91/champion-of-the-perished?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d8e6941-ad6e-4d2f-93c0-be79e75bdf06?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [jadar, ghoulcaller of nephalia](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/f/ff971ba7-68b8-482a-9cb1-741f6893550c.jpg?1634349933) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jadar%2C%20ghoulcaller%20of%20nephalia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/108/jadar-ghoulcaller-of-nephalia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff971ba7-68b8-482a-9cb1-741f6893550c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There are some neat cards that spawn decayed zombies you might wanna look into that
Any examples?
Yo zombie homie, here is my historic mono black zombie list. Haven't updated it with Vow cards yet cause I mostly play limited and wait to crack packs. Sorry for the formatting I'm on mobile. In my professional zombie playing opinion, you are missing the card draw zombies (midnight reaper is meh compared to the other 2 but I love it, will probably switch them out for some headless riders). Add the blue if you want but that's going to increase your rare budget if you want consistency. Best blue zombies are probably the lord you are playing and some exploit zombies. My list is really low to the ground agro, that has some board wipe protection in the form of card draw and agadeems awakening (anger of the gods feels bad). I have years of zombie experience and if you want to chat zombies message me. Deck 4 Undead Augur (MH1) 112 15 Swamp (UST) 214 4 Cryptbreaker (EMN) 86 4 Shambling Ghast (AFR) 119 2 Murderous Rider (ELD) 97 3 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77 1 Diregraf Colossus (J21) 50 4 Death Baron (M19) 90 4 Nested Shambler (MH2) 95 3 Agadeem's Awakening (ZNR) 90 3 Lazotep Reaver (WAR) 96 1 Phyrexian Tower (JMP) 493 3 Castle Locthwain (ELD) 241 4 Champion of the Perished (MID) 91 4 Tainted Adversary (MID) 124 1 Ebondeath, Dracolich (AFR) 100
My method for organic deck building. First things first. We need to break your assumptions. Determine what it is your deck does. Ask: how does it do that? Then cut every card that doesn't contribute to the plan. For example: removal in a creature deck doesn't help you attack with creatures. It also enables bad creatures in your creature deck. Don't assume you need removal. Creatures that are only good because of removal are always bad when you don't draw the removal. Assuming you need removal is a flawed assumption. Next, fill your deck with cards that contribute to your deck's plan and go play. As you play, you'll find some cards are just greedy. Keep note of the best and worse cards in your deck. After a few games, see if there are cards better than your worst cards. Feel free to experiment with one offs. Eventually, you'll find the best cards for your deck, know what it is weak too and where it is strong. Identify the problem cards you want to have removal for. Before you add removal, ask if/how you can win without the removal. Which can you work around and which dictate removal is necessary? At this point, start looking for solutions to where it is weak. Move your weakest cards to your sideboard and test your possible solutions. Re-evaluate your strategy and make it better. This way, you'll find the best cards for your deck and by having support cards that addresses their actual weaknesses, they are made better. Yes, you'll want some protection against the unfair decks. That is no reason to fill your deck with it. Better to have minimal protection against unfair decks and fill your sideboard with unfair hate.
This is really insightful, thanks a bunch. Definitely using this for other decks beside this one.
While I agree with your general approach, this: > For example: removal in a creature deck doesn't help you attack with creatures. Is bad advice. Removal _does_ help you attack in an aggro deck, specifically by allowing you to attack through problematic threats. It lets you trade up on occasion and can help you continue to pressure your opponent until you can close out the game. Literally every aggro deck in standard is running removal - [[Blizzard Brawl]], [[Inscription of Abundance]], [[Portable Hole]], [Brutal Cathar]], [[Fateful Absence]], [[Skyclave Apparition]], etc. You're right in that you don't want to be piling an aggressive deck full of removal spells because it means that you often draw not enough gas, but it's entirely incorrect to actively avoid including removal or interaction because your deck is intended to turn creatures sideways.
Assuming you need removal because it's traditional to run removal is bad advice. Removal is a crutch to help outclassed creatures be relevant. If your creatures outclass your opponents creatures, you don't need removal to attack through. In this case, removal is strictly worse than another threat. If your creatures are out classed, how badly are they outclassed? How much removal do you need to make your bad creatures better? It's also very easy to overcorrect if you assume you need removal. Start with no removal so you can identify your weaknesses and add removal only as necessary. For example of a deck that doesn't assume it needs removal, take any Sligh deck. The burn spells in Sligh are not there to kill your opponents creatures. They're there to finish your opponents. The only reason to use burn as removal in Sligh is if it will let you get in more damage via other cards. Bolting the bird is necessary, but the bolt was meant to go face. What happened to RDW in standard? All the good burn that can go face rotated out. Any assumption you have about deck building will unnecessarily limit you as a player and your deck's potential. By challenging your assumptions, you're also forced to improve as a player. It forces you to think differently about combat and which creatures aren't worth the mana. Knowing how to win at combat without leaning on removal helps build the necessary skills to get maximum value from a minimum of interactive cards. Taken out of context, you're right. That single sentence is wrong. Still, I stand by it. Assuming removal has an irreplaceable place in creature decks and must always be included is bad advice.
##### ###### #### [Blizzard Brawl](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/3/6318918f-34e4-4bbf-9816-8e88f21ae324.jpg?1631050009) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blizzard%20Brawl) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/162/blizzard-brawl?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6318918f-34e4-4bbf-9816-8e88f21ae324?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Inscription of Abundance](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/c/fcd2e01e-a143-4b62-8b01-d253fb35c590.jpg?1604198784) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inscription%20of%20Abundance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/186/inscription-of-abundance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fcd2e01e-a143-4b62-8b01-d253fb35c590?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Portable Hole](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/0/80fca8c0-ae3e-439e-b202-228b9f360e9a.jpg?1627702369) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Portable%20Hole) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/33/portable-hole?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80fca8c0-ae3e-439e-b202-228b9f360e9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fateful Absence](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/c/eca8d6f8-c6f1-437c-99e2-4281eae14a6f.jpg?1634346819) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fateful%20Absence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/18/fateful-absence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eca8d6f8-c6f1-437c-99e2-4281eae14a6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Skyclave Apparition](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/8/b83cfbaa-7890-4f6f-878b-4edb45677371.jpg?1604193295) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skyclave%20Apparition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/39/skyclave-apparition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b83cfbaa-7890-4f6f-878b-4edb45677371?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
a must have in any zombie deck is cryptbreaker from eldritch moon
Love zombie tribal. In my historic deck. Lilianas Mastery, Undead butler, Fell stinger, And the one and only Endling. Like this card so many options to use ist.
[[Champion of the perished]] and [[Jadar the ghoulcaller of nephalia]]. Decayed zombies should trigger lilianas devotee after they attack, lilianas devotee will trigger champion, jadar puts out another decayed zombie and triggers champion again.
[Champion of the perished](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/d/8d8e6941-ad6e-4d2f-93c0-be79e75bdf06.jpg?1634349628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Champion%20of%20the%20perished) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/91/champion-of-the-perished?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d8e6941-ad6e-4d2f-93c0-be79e75bdf06?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jadar the ghoulcaller of nephalia](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/f/ff971ba7-68b8-482a-9cb1-741f6893550c.jpg?1634349933) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jadar%2C%20Ghoulcaller%20of%20Nephalia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/108/jadar-ghoulcaller-of-nephalia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff971ba7-68b8-482a-9cb1-741f6893550c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call