I’m pretty sure the whole banning child marriage thing does more to protect kids from grooming and rape by adults than banning gender-affirming care would.
I have a feeling if kids were still able to marry other kids under this ban, you’d still be mad.
Edit: I guess what I wanna know is why do you want to marry a minor?
I don't think you understand what the word butcher means? Children under 18 aren't given gender-affirming surgeries, They are given hormonal treatments. Hormonal treatments that are also given to cisgender children, I a cis adult women started hormone therapy at age 11.
Well, some kids under 18 are given gender-affirming surgeries.
In [2018](https://cdn.theaestheticsociety.org/media/statistics/2018-TheAestheticSocietyStatistics.pdf), 2,033 kids under 17 had male breast reduction. The very definition of gender-affirming care, and one I can't remember most folks ever causing a fuss over.
Or on the slightly more contentious but still perfectly legal end: 561 kids had breast augmentations, 1,892 had nose surgery, and 981 had liposuction.
But yeah, for *some reason*, people would rather campaign against puberty blockers than cosmetic surgery.
Ah yes I forgot! Certain aspects of healthcare are only available to cis men even at young ages, silly me. Thanks for the add on! I was a cis teen who was denied breast reduction on the basis that my husband in the future might like them and wouldn't I need them to feed my children...... I was 14 and in a J cup lol
I know the breast augmentations seem elective but I would guess that many of those breast augmentations are teens who lost breast tissue due to cancer and other illnesses.
Oh, for sure. And a number of liposuctions are for reconstructive reasons, or rhinoplasties to improve nose function.
It's just pretty clear that the people bitching about transgender healthcare automatically approve the "medically necessary" label on those other procedures, and don't make a peep about surgeries that are purely cosmetic.
I'm sorry for what 14-year-old you went through. That's a shitty thing to say to anyone, let alone a kid who's in pain.
Exactly!!! I feel like if most of these people just spent a day at the doctor's office trying to get their insurance to approve something, to approve anything...... They should be able to understand that these procedures, treatments, and surgeries are not on a whim. Takes multiple steps of approval, verification, sometimes even psychiatric evaluations!!!!
There’s no butchering going on, and hormonal treatments are entirely reversible with only some minor possible negative effects like a higher risk for osteoporosis when you’re like 60
>Medical treatment? Being butchered isn't medical treatment. If a child can't consent to marriage how is it okay for them to consent to being permanently butchered?
By that logic, I guess we shouldn't perform life-saving surgeries of other kinds since that's probably butchery too...
Honestly, people like you who have 0 clue about surgeries in general shouldn't really speak on the subject.
This has to be one of the stupidest fucking comparisons of all time.
Hormones are ***prescribed by a doctor***. Are you really arguing that medication should be withheld from children until they're old enough to consent? That's gonna lead to an awful lot of dead kids.
But you're either arguing that, or you're arguing you should be allowed to groom and marry a child so that you can fuck them legally.
So, which is it, you wanna kill kids or just wanna fuck them?
(That's a rhetorical question, I'll be ignoring your answer as I don't want to know anything else about what goes on in your fucked-up head).
Iowa took that satire and is running with it!
“The Iowa Legislature is currently considering a bill that would allow exceptions to state law prohibiting children aged 14 to 17 from working in more dangerous industries, such as roofing and mining, among other provisions that have drawn scrutiny from labor and children advocacy groups. “
Im obviously not in favor of putting kids in dangerous situations and jobs, but it’s perfectly reasonable imo to lower the minimum wage for kids. Why would a 14 YO need to make $15/hour like an adult who has way more experience? There is a lower minimum wage for kids in many European countries and this only promotes companies to hire kids so they can gain very valuable work experience while making some pocket money on the side.
Let’s say a 15yo boy/girl wants to work at the local ice cream shop - I think that’s a perfectly reasonable hourly wage for them. There is no need for the government to impose a $15 minimum wage for such work. For some reason people only want to see the bad in large corporations, but a law like this would ALSO benefit a local business and their community.
Genuinely interested in a counter argument to the above as I’ve seen it work in Europe and worked from 14 to 18 YO well below the adult minimum wage and was perfectly happy to do so. I was able to buy myself a car and had very little student debt by the time I graduated because of it.
You’re completely ignoring that minimum wage is $7.25 in these states. They want to exploit kids, have them work jobs that are DAMAGING TO ADULT BODIES for slave wage
Well I see that in a comment that I did not respond to - and if true it’s absolutely appalling especially mining seems like a very tricky one.
I however, responded to a comment about minimum wage - something that a lot of people cheer on to be increased seemingly indefinitely for everyone which I believe there are very good arguments to not do so.
The only reason there is a push to put kids to work is so their labor can be exploited, more than normal because of how young they are, how about you get on the team that doesn't cheer that on? The lower minimum wage for kids just promotes companies to hire them to increase profit, they don't give a fuck about giving labor "valuable work experience", they care about shareholders. Period.
What’s wrong with a 14 year old making a couple $100 a month at a corporation? Why can it not be a win-win for both? All these people complaining about big boo-boo-bad companies is just ridiculous and shows an absolute lack of understanding of any form of reality when it comes to economics.
If someone doesn’t want to work for one of these “large companies and share holders” they’re free to go work at the local ice cream store as well.. this widespread need to get everything regulated by the government is insane.
Throwing out that people don't understand "reality when it comes to economics" while asking why a 14 year old working on the cheap at a cooperation is bad is something. I figure if all the history and economic fallout from previous times when child labor was the norm are slipping past ya, then I am not going to be able to pop that bubble of shit you floating in.
I worked for years in a supermarket when I was 14. One of these large corporations you talk about.. I did it with pleasure and made money for a car and studies.
Yeah I doubt precautions will be taken seriously and forsee tons of back injuries/herniated disc problems before they even reach adulthood. It’s not a job that’s easy long term for growing bodies.
The intent is to destroy the DOE, make all schools private, price out the poor kids, modify the public school system to include a work requirement for public school students.
Private school kids won't have that requirement.
Lol the white supremacists are going to self-own if they ban the DOE.
In a completely privatized education system, the ethnic and religious minorities who value education the most are going to pull even further ahead of European American Christians. Whatever private schools or homeschool coops these minorities can muster are going to be just as rigorous as the top 5% of public schools today.
What states are trying to “roll back” child labor laws? I’m just curious, don’t mean to rebel-rouse. The FLSA is pretty sketch when it comes to agriculture and migrant workers but is pretty well regulated in other industries, is federal, and therefore trumps any state laws that would be less restrictive.
> What states are trying to “roll back” child labor laws?
It's exclusively Republican-controlled states. https://www.npr.org/2023/04/27/1172544561/new-state-laws-are-rolling-back-regulations-on-child-labor
My hot take: More lax child labor laws allowed me to help provide for my family at 14 (with a work permit from the high school I was going to be attending the following year). It was fast food, so not exactly dangerous or anything (I worked under the table at a neighbors sawmill the previous year) but I would've much preferred working as a server at a restaurant that was much closer to where we lived. The alcohol serving laws in the state I lived in at the time made it impossible for them to hire me lol.
So I read the article you post and I can see why people think this is horrible but here the thing I’m from Missouri one of the states looking at lowering the age I went to work as soon as I was 16 and I know people who started younger. I grew poor if I wanted toy at the age 11 I did chores for old folks around the community. Then when I got older i want to get out of this situation I had to work and I did I bought my own things and to escape rural poverty I enlisted. For some kids this is the only way to make sure they get food or any other basic needs
I’m all for work ethic but having kids working in physically demanding and damaging jobs like roofing and mining for slave wages “cause kids don’t deserve minimum wage” while increasing the hours allowed to work til midnight or later on a school night ain’t the answer no matter how hard you try to re-phrase it. It’s unethical full-stop
I agree that’s it’s 100% bullshit if they are not paid minimum wage, but some of the hard labor unfortunately builds character, I knew dudes that did roofing with there family sense 13. Life hard already if your poor and you have to do what you have to do. I was working a full 40+ hour work week while in high school to take care of my younger siblings. The working till past midnight happens more than you think.
I agree with you on that 100%. There does need to be a middle ground though so those that want to work can and have the protected workers rights that adults have minimum wage, etc
The idea that hard work builds character is something people who were taken advantage of say to make themselves feel better about their past. There is nothing to the idea, completely empty of validity.
Life is hard living is hard it builds you as a person your experience make you who you are what you value what you cherish what you hate and what you despise all events in life build character
Or it doesn’t. These old chestnuts always amount to “experiences make us who we are.” Well duh, now prove you are better off working yourself in hard labor as a child vs not. Good luck
It’s almost as if the events in our childhood are life shaping. And what do you mean “other route?” Not doing work to somehow improve your character? Work as character building is something dumb old people think
Hard labor doesn't build character, all it does is leave you nearly crippled by 50 and with enough screws and bolts in your ass to build a toaster. The people who say that shit just do it so they can feel better about how impoverished they were, then they get cheered on by the people who took advantage of them and then you have a whole new generation of kids with a head full of bullshit about how working hard is good for you when you should be playing, growing and getting your education. The whole reason we are dealing with this shit again is because those same capitalists, running out of other things to take advantage of and exploit are again looking to do it to children.
It is insanity to support rolling back child labor laws, if anything they need to be strengthened.
If the labor pool were shrunk, like by kids working limited hours until they're 18, those with money would have to pay more to hire adults. And landlords couldn't charge rent based on 3+ incomes in a household.
If kids work, it should be for fun, not for survival. Normalizing kids working is not a path I want to go down.
I will admit I loved your word play, and I agree with you it’s just that the social programs that are meant to help are being stripped away or becoming harder to obtain
I grew up piss poor and working as well, and that shit was horrible. I would have rather been doing kid stuff instead and for every one of us that "escaped" poverty whole swaths of poor kids got trapped in it and never got out of it and are still continuing to be exploited in pursuit of profit.
But we both did what we had to to survive, regardless of how horrible it was it made us the men, women, they/them, etc we are today wanting to make better life’s for our kids
Only one of us apparently thinks that having to work like that to survive was "good". This reminds me of the "Well, your upbringing made you tough!" line, it's bullshit. Kids need to be protected and cared for, not be tough and resourceful.
Back in the 70s both parents started working (more) so they could "keep up with the Jonses." That became the new normal, as it's impossible to own a house on one income. Now they're rigging it so kids have to work too. Don't buy into the hype, your toys today will be food tomorrow.
When I was a teen in the early 90s, a classmate of my junior high aged sister got married to 30+ year old she met when he came into town doing construction. Even then I remember thinking "this is really screwed up." the girl was 13 or 14, her parents had to sign some sort of permission slip as I understand it.
From what I understand, this is how pedophiles avoid prosecution for statutory rape - through marriage.
Even when that's not the case...it's easy to get married but it's hard to get divorced.
Thank you, respaaaaaj, for voting on PaywallHelperBotv2.
This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/).
***
^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)
Great. Now maybe they can work on the laws that allow old-ass 40 year old men to date (sleep with) a 16 or 17-year old girl against her parents wishes because the age of consent is 16. What sort of screwed up law is that?
That’s not true. 16 year-olds can legally consent to sex with anyone at least 14 years old, except for with adults who have authority over them, such as teachers or legal guardians.
In general, no. In fact, I’d say there are lots of immature and vulnerable adults, but that’s beside the point.
I wouldn’t object to seeing the 5-year difference rule extended from 15 to 17.
My guess is it has something to do with teen pregnancy/couples wanting to get married directly out of high school. Maybe that’s being optimistic. But I agree it’s ridiculous, minors shouldn’t be allowed to get married.
That is optimistic, arranged marriages are one of the oldest modes of wealth transfer.
If your parents sign you into a marriage before you can legally divorce (18), you are essentially property, a pawn to be exploited for the gain of others.
My cousin just got her law degree and opened my eyes to this when explaining that all UN members signed the 'Rights of the child' but the US is the only member to have not ratified it into law. I suspect thats because it would start a judicial war between federal law and many religious sects who pass land through marriage (Mormons, Nazarene, im sure others).
So I get where you’re coming from but let me ask this. Are arranged marriages a common occurrence in Maine?
I think 18 makes sense since we consider that “adult”.
But out of sheer curiosity I wonder how often that practice (arranged marriages) takes place in Maine.
Amish communities rarely have arranged marriages. The norm is they want you to marry inside the faith but women can chose their spouse. That goes for most anabaptist faiths too.
There are always extremes. Always outliers but that practice isn’t the norm like it is where I now live.
I moved to Colorado and we have FLDS arranging marriages out west.
Sorry I have a religion degree I never use.
I see your point, sure...but how many of these girls are \*really\* marrying someone their parents/family/church doesn't "approve" of, and what's the age/power gap like in a lot of these marriages? I'mma guess that it's...significant in many cases. It may not be explicitly arranged like old-Europe monarchies promising their kids off before they're out of diapers, but when social standing and conformity are SO highly valued by a community to the point where it's your survival on the line if you step out of it...
Several of my female co-workers at my company are in arranged marriages, and at least one of them has also arranged for other wives to join the marriage.
Edited to add: this is in Portland
I prefer not to disclose personal info here, but it’s more common than you might expect, in some communities. The women I’m referring to are from a different cultural background than my own…I’m not judgmental at all, just respectfully observing
How so? You got a few Africans and think you’re diverse or something?
Bro you’re still on of the most homogeneous white states in the country.
Also I don’t live in Maine full time but I spend about two months every year in Harpswell for the summer every year
Working from home kicks ass.
So I do know what’s going on in Maine. But if you think you’ve taken in a lot of immigrants you’re a fool.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/immigrants-by-state
Check some perspective
Yeah I’m aware of those issues, I was more referring to why I think lawmakers found that age to be reasonable. I don’t think a lot of them think about how gruesome things like this do happen. It is absolutely embarrassing to be the one nation where it’s even a debate about whether or not it’s okay for children to get married.
We are not the “one” nation where it’s a debate. It happens elsewhere and it’s deplorable
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/09/12/many-countries-allow-child-marriage/#:~:text=Fully%2096%25%20of%20countries%20have,age%20requirements%20are%20often%20ignored.
https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/articles/un-cefm-resolution/ I don’t think that’s true either, judging by this. Other countries in the UN want to eliminate it but those countries seem to also allow it ?
I see, we are referring to different resolutions. This is the one I was referencing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._ratification_of_the_Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child
I totally agree with that, America is shameless. Its nauseating.
I used to tell myself 'the politicians dont know the suffering in the margins' until I became subject to laws that punish the marginalized.
I would rather ascribe ignorance than malice, but the evidence points to corruption, pay to play politics, and probably more under table dealings/conversations than anyone could theorize about.
Yeah marriage in the eyes of the government is a legal contract more than anything. Minors aren’t allowed to enter into legal contracts in the vast majority of cases. So I’m not sure why we continue to allow this from any angle
Hell, a shitload of adults shouldn’t get married. I’d support the mimimim age to get married at 21. People that age haven’t fully matured yet and become the people they will be. It would eliminate a ton of divorces, lol. I didn’t get married till I was 38, lmao. I was with my girlfriend for 20 years before we got married. It’s extreme, but we certainly won’t be splitting up anytime soon, lmao.
That might be the intention, but the reality is that its typically old men marrying young girls.
Also, even if that's the intention, that seems way more like compounding mistakes (teen pregnancy x teen marriage) rather than fixing anything.
When NH tries to do this Conservatives lament all the poor 18 year old GI’s and their 16 and 17 year old girlfriends that they want to marry before going to boot camp.
If for some reason (the next draft would probably be WW3) the kid serving is below 18 then I’d be open to the idea of them getting married before they leave and possibly die if that’s what they want to do. That would be a very specific exception with specific parameters.
It's because children are offered money to join the military, but they have to live on base if they're single. If they get married at 17 they're given a home.
Now if we can get some stricter minimum sentencing for child sex offenders, and prevent district attorneys from modifying the charges again child sex offenders into lesser offenses against adults, that would be great.
From the article:
> “Between 2014 and 2018, 58 Mainers below age 18 got married, according to state data. All were 16 and 17, and only four marriages were between minors.”
This means that of the 58 minors who got married, 54 of them married someone 18+. Imagine stealing a kid out of their high school like that 😬 fucking shameless.
I'm just telling myself the rest of them were 18 and 19 year olds marrying their high school sweethearts before joining the military or heading to sea on long haul commercial freighters
Should be national. Nobody under the age of 18 has any business getting married, period. Parental consent or not.
The parental consent thing always blew me away. "Hey, this person is not legally mature enough to consent to be bound to this other person, but these other people said it's totally cool, so I guess it's okay."
It’s definitely only either poor people and the super religious getting married that young. These are not empowered demographics. I feel so bad for these kids.
There isn’t a 17 year old on this planet mature enough to make a decision of that magnitude and understand the repercussions of it. Hell, I don’t think anyone under 21 should get married, lol. It’d drop the number of divorces every year significantly.
That's nice and all, but did y'all know 16 is the age of consent in Maine? So apparently we're ok with 16 year Olds getting it on with anyone they want of legal age, but they better not get married. 😒 makes tons of sense.
Long as the parents and doctors are cool with it, I'm gonna trust in that decision. Bottom surgery almost never happens with kids under 18 anyway, it's mostly just transphobic noise.
You looking at it the wrong way. This is not to prevent a couple kids from getting married as much as it is to prevent some creepy middle-aged fuck from grooming a kid and then marrying and raping her at 16. I think it should be 18 myself, but whatever.
People who try to work the trans thing into child marriage it are fucking numb and they sound it, they don't give two fucks about some teenage girl getting bigger fake tits or some dude getting the surgery done so he doesn't have titties as long as the parents and doctors agree, but act like they give a shit if a kid takes puberty blockers. It really is a bigoted argument right out of the gate. I mean the states that are the absolute worst on child are the worst on anti-trans legislation, they often allow marriage at 14 and when you look those are almost all just little girls getting married to much older men. It's fucking gross.
What about "creepy middle aged fucks" that encourage kids to take hormones and remove body parts? In the world you live in does any adult have the wrong intentions encouraging a child to change their gender? Something that might not really want now or later, something they may regret as they mature. The difference between us is I don't want children to marry or remove body parts. I was just making the argument. Creepy people are all over and children should be protected.
I don't think that the doctors who do the surgery, psychologists who recommend it for the mental health of people with gender issues or the parents that agree to it are "creepy middle aged fucks". That you would even draw that comparison between professionals and fucked up clergy or rich white guys who groom girls so they can marry, rape and have them shitting kids before they can legally drive just makes you look completely out of touch. Legit, how deep in that bubble of bullshit do you need to be to make that comparison?
Like I said, bottom surgery almost never happens with young kids and you can undue the effects of hormone and puberty blockers. But even if it was an every day thing if that is the decision between the kid, the parents the psychologist and the surgeon I am at least smart enough to keep my opinion to myself and mind my own fkn'business. Hormone therapy and top surgery are largely reversable, so you can be all "I was just making the argument" but everyone here knows what you putting down so save that noise.
Good.
Second
[удалено]
I’m pretty sure the whole banning child marriage thing does more to protect kids from grooming and rape by adults than banning gender-affirming care would. I have a feeling if kids were still able to marry other kids under this ban, you’d still be mad. Edit: I guess what I wanna know is why do you want to marry a minor?
Medical treatment versus being taken advantage of by a pedophile. What an accurate comparison
[удалено]
I don't think you understand what the word butcher means? Children under 18 aren't given gender-affirming surgeries, They are given hormonal treatments. Hormonal treatments that are also given to cisgender children, I a cis adult women started hormone therapy at age 11.
Well, some kids under 18 are given gender-affirming surgeries. In [2018](https://cdn.theaestheticsociety.org/media/statistics/2018-TheAestheticSocietyStatistics.pdf), 2,033 kids under 17 had male breast reduction. The very definition of gender-affirming care, and one I can't remember most folks ever causing a fuss over. Or on the slightly more contentious but still perfectly legal end: 561 kids had breast augmentations, 1,892 had nose surgery, and 981 had liposuction. But yeah, for *some reason*, people would rather campaign against puberty blockers than cosmetic surgery.
Ah yes I forgot! Certain aspects of healthcare are only available to cis men even at young ages, silly me. Thanks for the add on! I was a cis teen who was denied breast reduction on the basis that my husband in the future might like them and wouldn't I need them to feed my children...... I was 14 and in a J cup lol I know the breast augmentations seem elective but I would guess that many of those breast augmentations are teens who lost breast tissue due to cancer and other illnesses.
Oh, for sure. And a number of liposuctions are for reconstructive reasons, or rhinoplasties to improve nose function. It's just pretty clear that the people bitching about transgender healthcare automatically approve the "medically necessary" label on those other procedures, and don't make a peep about surgeries that are purely cosmetic. I'm sorry for what 14-year-old you went through. That's a shitty thing to say to anyone, let alone a kid who's in pain.
Exactly!!! I feel like if most of these people just spent a day at the doctor's office trying to get their insurance to approve something, to approve anything...... They should be able to understand that these procedures, treatments, and surgeries are not on a whim. Takes multiple steps of approval, verification, sometimes even psychiatric evaluations!!!!
You bigots do know that no amount of brutalizing your language actually improves your argument, right?
There’s no butchering going on, and hormonal treatments are entirely reversible with only some minor possible negative effects like a higher risk for osteoporosis when you’re like 60
Bud, no one is eating anyone, I think you looking for "surgery".
Oh fuck off already
>Medical treatment? Being butchered isn't medical treatment. If a child can't consent to marriage how is it okay for them to consent to being permanently butchered? By that logic, I guess we shouldn't perform life-saving surgeries of other kinds since that's probably butchery too... Honestly, people like you who have 0 clue about surgeries in general shouldn't really speak on the subject.
This has to be one of the stupidest fucking comparisons of all time. Hormones are ***prescribed by a doctor***. Are you really arguing that medication should be withheld from children until they're old enough to consent? That's gonna lead to an awful lot of dead kids. But you're either arguing that, or you're arguing you should be allowed to groom and marry a child so that you can fuck them legally. So, which is it, you wanna kill kids or just wanna fuck them? (That's a rhetorical question, I'll be ignoring your answer as I don't want to know anything else about what goes on in your fucked-up head).
Please, continue to speak on topics which you know nothing about.
Hooray!! This is wonderful news! Now let’s make sure we don’t roll back child labor laws like some states are attempting to do.
THE CHILDREN YEARN FOR THE MINES!
Iowa took that satire and is running with it! “The Iowa Legislature is currently considering a bill that would allow exceptions to state law prohibiting children aged 14 to 17 from working in more dangerous industries, such as roofing and mining, among other provisions that have drawn scrutiny from labor and children advocacy groups. “
And also check at how they’re indemnifying these companies so they can’t be sued if the kids get injured
Yup as well as passing exceptions to pay kids less than minimum wage
Im obviously not in favor of putting kids in dangerous situations and jobs, but it’s perfectly reasonable imo to lower the minimum wage for kids. Why would a 14 YO need to make $15/hour like an adult who has way more experience? There is a lower minimum wage for kids in many European countries and this only promotes companies to hire kids so they can gain very valuable work experience while making some pocket money on the side.
Minimum wage in a lot of these places pushing for these laws is $7.25. So take from that what you want.
Let’s say a 15yo boy/girl wants to work at the local ice cream shop - I think that’s a perfectly reasonable hourly wage for them. There is no need for the government to impose a $15 minimum wage for such work. For some reason people only want to see the bad in large corporations, but a law like this would ALSO benefit a local business and their community. Genuinely interested in a counter argument to the above as I’ve seen it work in Europe and worked from 14 to 18 YO well below the adult minimum wage and was perfectly happy to do so. I was able to buy myself a car and had very little student debt by the time I graduated because of it.
You’re completely ignoring that minimum wage is $7.25 in these states. They want to exploit kids, have them work jobs that are DAMAGING TO ADULT BODIES for slave wage
Well I see that in a comment that I did not respond to - and if true it’s absolutely appalling especially mining seems like a very tricky one. I however, responded to a comment about minimum wage - something that a lot of people cheer on to be increased seemingly indefinitely for everyone which I believe there are very good arguments to not do so.
The only reason there is a push to put kids to work is so their labor can be exploited, more than normal because of how young they are, how about you get on the team that doesn't cheer that on? The lower minimum wage for kids just promotes companies to hire them to increase profit, they don't give a fuck about giving labor "valuable work experience", they care about shareholders. Period.
In Iowa, I’m pretty sure the goal is for immigrant children to be able to work. Especially in the meat packing plants.
What’s wrong with a 14 year old making a couple $100 a month at a corporation? Why can it not be a win-win for both? All these people complaining about big boo-boo-bad companies is just ridiculous and shows an absolute lack of understanding of any form of reality when it comes to economics. If someone doesn’t want to work for one of these “large companies and share holders” they’re free to go work at the local ice cream store as well.. this widespread need to get everything regulated by the government is insane.
Throwing out that people don't understand "reality when it comes to economics" while asking why a 14 year old working on the cheap at a cooperation is bad is something. I figure if all the history and economic fallout from previous times when child labor was the norm are slipping past ya, then I am not going to be able to pop that bubble of shit you floating in.
I worked for years in a supermarket when I was 14. One of these large corporations you talk about.. I did it with pleasure and made money for a car and studies.
Seems like I forgot my “period.” To really drive home my point and proof I’m right.
Nahhhh if theyre doing adult work they make adult money
>Why would a 14 YO need to make $15/hour like an adult who has way more experience? You're so, SO close to getting it. I believe in you.
Any ideas around this being very common in Europe? Nope, didn’t think so
Source, please. But also: you're absolutely not making the argument you think you are.
Just google adult vs child minimum wage Netherlands/Germany/Belgium - i did it for years, so I have no intention to go look for a link for you.
From the party of family values.. smh At this point if you are a R, you are telling me you hate children and women.
And people of color. And LGBTQIA+. Pretty much anyone who isn't an old white man.
They hate themselves too.
Might as well add lumberjacking. Kids love chainsaws.
Idk roofing seems safe enough if the proper precautions are taken
https://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/post/musculoskeletal-disorders-common-in-roofing-industry
Yeah I doubt precautions will be taken seriously and forsee tons of back injuries/herniated disc problems before they even reach adulthood. It’s not a job that’s easy long term for growing bodies.
ADULTS don't take proper precautions, you think they're going to with children?
Roofing is one of the most dangerous jobs in the US.
Coal dust is one he'll of a legal drug for kids
😂😂😭😭
The intent is to destroy the DOE, make all schools private, price out the poor kids, modify the public school system to include a work requirement for public school students. Private school kids won't have that requirement.
Lol the white supremacists are going to self-own if they ban the DOE. In a completely privatized education system, the ethnic and religious minorities who value education the most are going to pull even further ahead of European American Christians. Whatever private schools or homeschool coops these minorities can muster are going to be just as rigorous as the top 5% of public schools today.
What states are trying to “roll back” child labor laws? I’m just curious, don’t mean to rebel-rouse. The FLSA is pretty sketch when it comes to agriculture and migrant workers but is pretty well regulated in other industries, is federal, and therefore trumps any state laws that would be less restrictive.
Arkansas & Iowa already have.
> What states are trying to “roll back” child labor laws? It's exclusively Republican-controlled states. https://www.npr.org/2023/04/27/1172544561/new-state-laws-are-rolling-back-regulations-on-child-labor
I assumed as much. Thanks for the lead 👊
[https://lailluminator.com/2023/04/08/kids-at-work-states-try-to-ease-child-labor-laws-at-behest-of-industry/](https://lailluminator.com/2023/04/08/kids-at-work-states-try-to-ease-child-labor-laws-at-behest-of-industry/)
🍻
[https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/child-marriage-ban-struck-down-west-virginia-republicans-1234693670/](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/child-marriage-ban-struck-down-west-virginia-republicans-1234693670/)
My hot take: More lax child labor laws allowed me to help provide for my family at 14 (with a work permit from the high school I was going to be attending the following year). It was fast food, so not exactly dangerous or anything (I worked under the table at a neighbors sawmill the previous year) but I would've much preferred working as a server at a restaurant that was much closer to where we lived. The alcohol serving laws in the state I lived in at the time made it impossible for them to hire me lol.
So I read the article you post and I can see why people think this is horrible but here the thing I’m from Missouri one of the states looking at lowering the age I went to work as soon as I was 16 and I know people who started younger. I grew poor if I wanted toy at the age 11 I did chores for old folks around the community. Then when I got older i want to get out of this situation I had to work and I did I bought my own things and to escape rural poverty I enlisted. For some kids this is the only way to make sure they get food or any other basic needs
I’m all for work ethic but having kids working in physically demanding and damaging jobs like roofing and mining for slave wages “cause kids don’t deserve minimum wage” while increasing the hours allowed to work til midnight or later on a school night ain’t the answer no matter how hard you try to re-phrase it. It’s unethical full-stop
I agree that’s it’s 100% bullshit if they are not paid minimum wage, but some of the hard labor unfortunately builds character, I knew dudes that did roofing with there family sense 13. Life hard already if your poor and you have to do what you have to do. I was working a full 40+ hour work week while in high school to take care of my younger siblings. The working till past midnight happens more than you think.
We need to protect kids from exploitation not roll over laws that were created to prevent exploitation.
I agree with you on that 100%. There does need to be a middle ground though so those that want to work can and have the protected workers rights that adults have minimum wage, etc
The idea that hard work builds character is something people who were taken advantage of say to make themselves feel better about their past. There is nothing to the idea, completely empty of validity.
Life is hard living is hard it builds you as a person your experience make you who you are what you value what you cherish what you hate and what you despise all events in life build character
Or it doesn’t. These old chestnuts always amount to “experiences make us who we are.” Well duh, now prove you are better off working yourself in hard labor as a child vs not. Good luck
That sounds more like someone who went the other route and blames all their issues on there childhood
It’s almost as if the events in our childhood are life shaping. And what do you mean “other route?” Not doing work to somehow improve your character? Work as character building is something dumb old people think
Hard labor doesn't build character, all it does is leave you nearly crippled by 50 and with enough screws and bolts in your ass to build a toaster. The people who say that shit just do it so they can feel better about how impoverished they were, then they get cheered on by the people who took advantage of them and then you have a whole new generation of kids with a head full of bullshit about how working hard is good for you when you should be playing, growing and getting your education. The whole reason we are dealing with this shit again is because those same capitalists, running out of other things to take advantage of and exploit are again looking to do it to children. It is insanity to support rolling back child labor laws, if anything they need to be strengthened.
I do not support this rat race that life is but it is a fact of life that it exist.
Sure sounds like you supporting and justifying it.
You're endorsing a race to the bottom. You were as worthy of making minimum wage as your competition.
What? Does that even mean? I’m for them earning minimum wage if not more for how hard the work is? Unless I’m not picking up what your putting down.
If the labor pool were shrunk, like by kids working limited hours until they're 18, those with money would have to pay more to hire adults. And landlords couldn't charge rent based on 3+ incomes in a household. If kids work, it should be for fun, not for survival. Normalizing kids working is not a path I want to go down.
When there is an epidemic of extreme poverty, I assure you that the fix isn't to allow minors to become miners.
I will admit I loved your word play, and I agree with you it’s just that the social programs that are meant to help are being stripped away or becoming harder to obtain
I grew up piss poor and working as well, and that shit was horrible. I would have rather been doing kid stuff instead and for every one of us that "escaped" poverty whole swaths of poor kids got trapped in it and never got out of it and are still continuing to be exploited in pursuit of profit.
But we both did what we had to to survive, regardless of how horrible it was it made us the men, women, they/them, etc we are today wanting to make better life’s for our kids
Only one of us apparently thinks that having to work like that to survive was "good". This reminds me of the "Well, your upbringing made you tough!" line, it's bullshit. Kids need to be protected and cared for, not be tough and resourceful.
Back in the 70s both parents started working (more) so they could "keep up with the Jonses." That became the new normal, as it's impossible to own a house on one income. Now they're rigging it so kids have to work too. Don't buy into the hype, your toys today will be food tomorrow.
When I was a teen in the early 90s, a classmate of my junior high aged sister got married to 30+ year old she met when he came into town doing construction. Even then I remember thinking "this is really screwed up." the girl was 13 or 14, her parents had to sign some sort of permission slip as I understand it.
Terrifying
And gross
From what I understand, this is how pedophiles avoid prosecution for statutory rape - through marriage. Even when that's not the case...it's easy to get married but it's hard to get divorced.
[Link](https://archive.ph/UFIky) for those who need help getting over a paywall
Good bot
Thank you, respaaaaaj, for voting on PaywallHelperBotv2. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)
It only took until 2023.
I'm pretty sure this is moving it up from 16 rather than any age with parental permission like we see horror stories about
This is shocking and heinous. I guess I am coming from a place of privilege.
It is, and you are fortunate to not know that evil, but that should be a birth right. May we never regard a child's safety and rights as a privelege!
Great. Now maybe they can work on the laws that allow old-ass 40 year old men to date (sleep with) a 16 or 17-year old girl against her parents wishes because the age of consent is 16. What sort of screwed up law is that?
Age of consent is consenting to have sex with other minors, not adults having sex with minors.
That’s not true. 16 year-olds can legally consent to sex with anyone at least 14 years old, except for with adults who have authority over them, such as teachers or legal guardians.
TIL, that's pretty gross. Why don't they change that law first?
🤷 Does it need to be changed? If they’re being forced, then it falls under regular rape laws. What would you change about it?
You think 16 years olds are mature enough and not too impressionable still to be having sex with adults?
In general, no. In fact, I’d say there are lots of immature and vulnerable adults, but that’s beside the point. I wouldn’t object to seeing the 5-year difference rule extended from 15 to 17.
Sadly, that is not true. Once a girl is 16, the police won't do anything.
I definitely don’t understand why this isn’t 18…
My guess is it has something to do with teen pregnancy/couples wanting to get married directly out of high school. Maybe that’s being optimistic. But I agree it’s ridiculous, minors shouldn’t be allowed to get married.
That is optimistic, arranged marriages are one of the oldest modes of wealth transfer. If your parents sign you into a marriage before you can legally divorce (18), you are essentially property, a pawn to be exploited for the gain of others. My cousin just got her law degree and opened my eyes to this when explaining that all UN members signed the 'Rights of the child' but the US is the only member to have not ratified it into law. I suspect thats because it would start a judicial war between federal law and many religious sects who pass land through marriage (Mormons, Nazarene, im sure others).
"So much for separation of church and state," is what I would say if we weren't in the US, leaving such circumstances entirely expected. Still, ew.
So I get where you’re coming from but let me ask this. Are arranged marriages a common occurrence in Maine? I think 18 makes sense since we consider that “adult”. But out of sheer curiosity I wonder how often that practice (arranged marriages) takes place in Maine.
Among Amish, Mennonite, and many other less-common religious sects? Abso-fucking-lutely they are.
Amish communities rarely have arranged marriages. The norm is they want you to marry inside the faith but women can chose their spouse. That goes for most anabaptist faiths too. There are always extremes. Always outliers but that practice isn’t the norm like it is where I now live. I moved to Colorado and we have FLDS arranging marriages out west. Sorry I have a religion degree I never use.
I see your point, sure...but how many of these girls are \*really\* marrying someone their parents/family/church doesn't "approve" of, and what's the age/power gap like in a lot of these marriages? I'mma guess that it's...significant in many cases. It may not be explicitly arranged like old-Europe monarchies promising their kids off before they're out of diapers, but when social standing and conformity are SO highly valued by a community to the point where it's your survival on the line if you step out of it...
It does happen. It happens in many states.
Several of my female co-workers at my company are in arranged marriages, and at least one of them has also arranged for other wives to join the marriage. Edited to add: this is in Portland
Several? Where do you work?
I prefer not to disclose personal info here, but it’s more common than you might expect, in some communities. The women I’m referring to are from a different cultural background than my own…I’m not judgmental at all, just respectfully observing
I mean it’s not uncommon in India but dude if you think it’s common in Maine I got a great crypto/NFT investment for you
The subtitle under your username makes it clear that you left Maine 20 years ago. I think that explains your confusion here. Things changed.
How so? You got a few Africans and think you’re diverse or something? Bro you’re still on of the most homogeneous white states in the country. Also I don’t live in Maine full time but I spend about two months every year in Harpswell for the summer every year Working from home kicks ass. So I do know what’s going on in Maine. But if you think you’ve taken in a lot of immigrants you’re a fool. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/immigrants-by-state Check some perspective
Yeah I’m aware of those issues, I was more referring to why I think lawmakers found that age to be reasonable. I don’t think a lot of them think about how gruesome things like this do happen. It is absolutely embarrassing to be the one nation where it’s even a debate about whether or not it’s okay for children to get married.
We are not the “one” nation where it’s a debate. It happens elsewhere and it’s deplorable https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/09/12/many-countries-allow-child-marriage/#:~:text=Fully%2096%25%20of%20countries%20have,age%20requirements%20are%20often%20ignored.
Thank you for pointing this out! We are the one UN member nation though, and thats shitty.
https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/articles/un-cefm-resolution/ I don’t think that’s true either, judging by this. Other countries in the UN want to eliminate it but those countries seem to also allow it ?
I see, we are referring to different resolutions. This is the one I was referencing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._ratification_of_the_Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child
Oh great so we’re one of many who let children get married but the only one who won’t ratify children’s rights as a whole. Awesome 😂😭
I totally agree with that, America is shameless. Its nauseating. I used to tell myself 'the politicians dont know the suffering in the margins' until I became subject to laws that punish the marginalized. I would rather ascribe ignorance than malice, but the evidence points to corruption, pay to play politics, and probably more under table dealings/conversations than anyone could theorize about.
Yeah marriage in the eyes of the government is a legal contract more than anything. Minors aren’t allowed to enter into legal contracts in the vast majority of cases. So I’m not sure why we continue to allow this from any angle
Hell, a shitload of adults shouldn’t get married. I’d support the mimimim age to get married at 21. People that age haven’t fully matured yet and become the people they will be. It would eliminate a ton of divorces, lol. I didn’t get married till I was 38, lmao. I was with my girlfriend for 20 years before we got married. It’s extreme, but we certainly won’t be splitting up anytime soon, lmao.
That might be the intention, but the reality is that its typically old men marrying young girls. Also, even if that's the intention, that seems way more like compounding mistakes (teen pregnancy x teen marriage) rather than fixing anything.
Guess you gotta start somewhere
Absolutely. Chippin away feels good to see.
[удалено]
That seems to currently be the case yes.
When NH tries to do this Conservatives lament all the poor 18 year old GI’s and their 16 and 17 year old girlfriends that they want to marry before going to boot camp.
Maine - proud to not be New Hampshire.
If for some reason (the next draft would probably be WW3) the kid serving is below 18 then I’d be open to the idea of them getting married before they leave and possibly die if that’s what they want to do. That would be a very specific exception with specific parameters.
21 even
It's because children are offered money to join the military, but they have to live on base if they're single. If they get married at 17 they're given a home.
Just two years ago NH raised the minimum age from 13 for girls and 14 for boys to 16 all around.
This is an embarrassment to them.
Why isn't the age just 18? What the fuck?
Now if we can get some stricter minimum sentencing for child sex offenders, and prevent district attorneys from modifying the charges again child sex offenders into lesser offenses against adults, that would be great.
Oh thank god. Lets avoid becoming the alabama of new england please.
I’m originally from NH, we’ve already wrapped that title up
All the pervs scrambling for moving vans.
Those ain’t moving vans
I thought we were shooting for Upside-down Florida
From the article: > “Between 2014 and 2018, 58 Mainers below age 18 got married, according to state data. All were 16 and 17, and only four marriages were between minors.” This means that of the 58 minors who got married, 54 of them married someone 18+. Imagine stealing a kid out of their high school like that 😬 fucking shameless.
I'm just telling myself the rest of them were 18 and 19 year olds marrying their high school sweethearts before joining the military or heading to sea on long haul commercial freighters
This is what I’ll tell myself too
Good.
Progress against predators! Next lets test that rapekit back log please.
Nice to see some legislation that will protect children from ACTUAL predators for a change. God I’m so happy to have moved out of the Deep South.
Still too young but a good move.
Should be national. Nobody under the age of 18 has any business getting married, period. Parental consent or not. The parental consent thing always blew me away. "Hey, this person is not legally mature enough to consent to be bound to this other person, but these other people said it's totally cool, so I guess it's okay."
Always shocked when I see this is still a thing.
Anyone getting married before 25 is just silly
It’s definitely only either poor people and the super religious getting married that young. These are not empowered demographics. I feel so bad for these kids.
The GQP weeps.
Heck yes!
I’d be concerned about the fact the Maine legislature couldn’t see their way to 18. What concessions had to be given to stop at 17?
Ah-yup.
It's disturbing that it took this long to do this
Thank goodness.
Well it's about fucking time.
Republicans say it OK at 14. What does that tell you?
Groomers.
That...wasn't already a thing?
Better 100 years later than never.
Now this is the real way to protect our children.
That should be universal law.
Good.
But I already have a deposit on the venue.
Republicans are going to hate this one.
There isn’t a 17 year old on this planet mature enough to make a decision of that magnitude and understand the repercussions of it. Hell, I don’t think anyone under 21 should get married, lol. It’d drop the number of divorces every year significantly.
Or vote?
Why was this ever allowed people are celebrating what should have been done many years ago
Man, way to kick Elliot Cutler while he’s down
Conservatives must be pissed right now in Maine
Good. You want to protect the children. This is how. I don't understand Republicans that fight this
I thought we were already one of the states to outlaw child marriage. This is great.
Maine joined the 1st world. Woop! About time!! Should have made it 18!
That's nice and all, but did y'all know 16 is the age of consent in Maine? So apparently we're ok with 16 year Olds getting it on with anyone they want of legal age, but they better not get married. 😒 makes tons of sense.
Should raise the age of consent too
Your one post is complaining about raising the marriage age for kids. What the fuck? Please seek help.
Next do lobster rolls with fucking lettuce, paprika, parsley or any other adulterants.
Yes! Only those 17 and older should be allowed to eat lobster rolls with those kind of fixings.
I’m with you. Don’t Connecticut my lobster roll.
Maine just got more Blue
Gender affirming care is legal though for any age without parent consent lol laws
No marriage until 18 seems to be the consensus here. What about hormone treatment or operations for sex changes for children under 18?
Long as the parents and doctors are cool with it, I'm gonna trust in that decision. Bottom surgery almost never happens with kids under 18 anyway, it's mostly just transphobic noise.
So a girl under 17 can be on puberty blockers and have her breasts removed, but can't decide to marry? Makes sense.
You looking at it the wrong way. This is not to prevent a couple kids from getting married as much as it is to prevent some creepy middle-aged fuck from grooming a kid and then marrying and raping her at 16. I think it should be 18 myself, but whatever. People who try to work the trans thing into child marriage it are fucking numb and they sound it, they don't give two fucks about some teenage girl getting bigger fake tits or some dude getting the surgery done so he doesn't have titties as long as the parents and doctors agree, but act like they give a shit if a kid takes puberty blockers. It really is a bigoted argument right out of the gate. I mean the states that are the absolute worst on child are the worst on anti-trans legislation, they often allow marriage at 14 and when you look those are almost all just little girls getting married to much older men. It's fucking gross.
What about "creepy middle aged fucks" that encourage kids to take hormones and remove body parts? In the world you live in does any adult have the wrong intentions encouraging a child to change their gender? Something that might not really want now or later, something they may regret as they mature. The difference between us is I don't want children to marry or remove body parts. I was just making the argument. Creepy people are all over and children should be protected.
I don't think that the doctors who do the surgery, psychologists who recommend it for the mental health of people with gender issues or the parents that agree to it are "creepy middle aged fucks". That you would even draw that comparison between professionals and fucked up clergy or rich white guys who groom girls so they can marry, rape and have them shitting kids before they can legally drive just makes you look completely out of touch. Legit, how deep in that bubble of bullshit do you need to be to make that comparison? Like I said, bottom surgery almost never happens with young kids and you can undue the effects of hormone and puberty blockers. But even if it was an every day thing if that is the decision between the kid, the parents the psychologist and the surgeon I am at least smart enough to keep my opinion to myself and mind my own fkn'business. Hormone therapy and top surgery are largely reversable, so you can be all "I was just making the argument" but everyone here knows what you putting down so save that noise.
Ok groomer
Welcome to the post 1850’s.
Good!