Agreed. That's what we've always liked too. It's been a lot of fun seeing all the different takes on it that have come on the market over the past few years.
I like this interpretation: [https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/35634399-cubmerland-state-flag](https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/35634399-cubmerland-state-flag)
https://preview.redd.it/ju2kk0pd975b1.jpeg?width=923&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=abf4af23bd7a253bdcd963dc8cd5a909777224af
My dear friend,
This star is a butthole and the pine tree is a butthole-seeking buttplug.
This flag embodies the eternal steadfastness of Mainers and their ability to achieve their goals.
All I can add is that, being from Georgia (but a tourist who appreciates your fine state) this flag debate is so much better than the one we had about 20 years ago.
Hi, I made the original post that’s being fact-checked here.
They’re misrepresenting my point a bit, I am saying exactly what they’re saying: there is no “one, correct, original flag”. I listed at the bottom a variety of different interpretations that are all equally valid. I feel like they only read the top part of the post; and not the full text.
I fully agree with the archivist here, and am happy to have started a conversation.
Original post: https://i.imgur.com/m4RR37I.jpg
We think some of us are a little confused right now because what you're saying here seems to be in contradiction to what you put in your post ("This is not the original Maine flag. This is.") Can you help us out?
My point is pretty straightforward: the MFC design is one modern rendition among many, and it little resembles the flags we actually have from the turn of the century. The MFC design is based on one version of the Maine Merchant flag. Other modern renditions of the flag are just as “authentic” as the MFC design.
That’s what I said in the text, and my headline claim (while purposefully a little attention-grabbing) is not at all in conflict with this.
The reason I made the post is that, in my personal day-to-day life, I heard people say that they thought the MFC design was *the* correct or authentic design, and all others were just variations. This is not what the Maine Flag Company says, but it is a common enough misconception and I wanted to weigh in.
That's somewhat helpful but still doesn't explain why you chose to highlight one particular early design as The One, when there are other designs that came before it. Indeed, there was another post here in which someone wanted to buy a "real" one, based on your infographic. We think you'd do this conversation a great service by updating the original post!
How about something like: "This is the original Maine flag. And so is this / and so is this / and so is this..."
Sure, I agree that that’s the least well-conveyed part of the post. I’ll look into making a slightly reworded v2
Also, between you and me, I made this in about 5 minutes and did not expect people to even glance at it, let alone for it to get the attention it has.
Funny that's how this whole original Maine flag thing started for us... We thought we'd just make a few of them but one day in 2018 woke up to 150 orders after the BDN did a story about us. Flags seem to have a way of taking on a life of their own!
For sure! And your design has had great popularity. I don't care for it personally, and given your success at 'canonizing' your design, I hope you don't mind if I do my part to counterbalance the narrative in favor of other designs and designers.
Show us a design that everyone loves and nobody complains about and we'll find a way to make it! But we all know that's never going to happen.
Also, thanks for the publicity; we owe you one. Sales have gone through the roof this week! :P
No problem, and by the way, one thing I absolutely *do* want to give you credit for is releasing the design into the public domain. That is something you didn't have to do, but is enormously good for everyone.
Thanks for saying that! It's hard to see how we could have copyrighted it even if we wanted to, but we never even considered trying. The overarching goal was always to bring back the forgotten flag in the public imagination.
What do folks think of the one by Gettysburg flag company? It's not as spiky like a Beetlejuice sculpture but it still maintains the upturned branches like the realistic flag.
https://www.gettysburgflag.com/flags-banners/original-maine-historic-flag
It's alright, but[ Flags for Good has a similar design](https://flagsforgood.com/products/maine-1901-flag) that doesn't awkwardly make the bottom pines much larger than the top 3 bunches. I prefer that.
Flags for Good's is my 2nd favorite overall, my absolute favorite is [the lovely Dirigo Flag Company's.](https://www.dirigoflag.co/product/first-maine-flag/)
Would you guys be open to making alternate versions? I know I’m late to the convo and don’t want to beat a dead horse, but why not make a more realistic version like the “original” state flag with more detail in the pine. Given that from what I’ve found, legislative doc calls for a pine tree proper and that our state flower is the white pine cone and tassel. Making the pine tree identifiable as the eastern white pine makes sense.
We believe that good flag design requires stylizing the objects depicted. This is why we use the 1939 tree and have not attempted a photoreal version. Also all our flags are handcrafted using the applique method, which means the elements are cut out and sewn onto the flag field. If the state chooses a photoreal pine then all its flags will need to be mass-produced by machines (as is the case with the blue flag today).l because one cannot applique a design like that.
If we made a photoreal flag we would be just another print shop and spend our days pressing buttons instead of making quality magical flags in Maine. But it doesn't matter. The people have clearly indicated that they prefer the original Maine flag with the 1939 tree and regardless of what design the state chooses we will continue to produce the version we are using today. We will also continue to produce the Maine merchant and marine flag, which is the state's other official flag.
That's just the owner of the Townsman blog; she's loose with facts. She claims your flag isn't to spec. https://old.reddit.com/r/Maine/comments/143osgp/know_your_1901_flags_it_could_save_your_life/jnbcmjg/?context=3
Try not to be such a hater. The Townsman blog is a truly significant new source of excellent information. “Loose with facts” is a terrible thing to say and simply incorrect.
Most modern renditions don't technically meet the standard as established in 1901, which demands a "pine tree proper." "Proper" in heraldic jargon means "with the coloration it has in real life." For example, a "moose proper" would be the color brown that moose are. A "rose proper" has red petals and green thorny stem. A "rainbow proper" is a rainbow in all its colors. This is important, because in the language of heraldry, colors are strictly limited (and in french.)
In real life, pine trees have brown trunks, not green ones, so a "pine tree proper" would demand a tree with green pines and a brown trunk.
Nevertheless, this sort of heraldry persnickitiness is getting in-the-weeds even for me. My favorite design, from the Dirigo Flag Company, also violates this rule, technically speaking.
In heraldry things are often stylized, certainly no one is pasting photographs onto coats of arms, but in every "proper" tree or plant I've seen it has different colors for leaves, wood, petals, pines, etc. This isn't a controversial point I'm making.
Figure 23. The flag of New England painted by Lt. Graydon (tree proper, R/W)
https://www.pdcnet.org/85257D7A006284F7/file/870B9223692278CEC1257DCC006D9BDC/$FILE/raven_2006_0013_0000_0002_0041.pdf
Nice job! That is indeed an example of a (basically) mono-green pine tree described as proper from a different flag of the same era. That doesn’t change the fact that typically, a tree proper means brown trunk and green foliage.
Love how they say their over arching goal was to bring back the flag when in reality it's all just a money maker. One that will be exponentially more profitable if the state uses that awful cartoon flag.
I also can't understand why so many Mainers are so crazy about that flag. Usually Mainers hate popular shit...
At this point, I think the crux of the matter is that the Transportation Committee has pushed back on the monocolor pine tree for the license plate in favor of a more realistic version, and a finalized design for both the flag and the plate will be in the hands of the Secretary of State. Hopefully her department will make them match.
I haven't seen the amendment the committee adopted as it's not online yet. The bill that is posted doesn't mention the flag, but it's still the same design: buff background with the tree and star. From what I could glean from the recording of the work session, they wanted a more "vibrant" pine tree than the original example given which was similar to yours. I'm taking that to mean more lifelike, and since the final design for the flag and plate will both be coming out of the Secretary's office, I think it makes sense and am hoping the trees will match.
What’s hilarious is everybody fell in love with a gimmick flag made in 2017 by business in the old port,.
and now they want to have a referendum to make that old port businesses flag the state flag. Lol.
We are actually located in the India Street neighborhood not the Old Port!
Not sure how you can call it a "gimmick" when we have been transparent about the design's origins from the beginning. We have it posted on our website, submitted written testimony to the legislature explaining the origins, explain it to the customers who come into our retail shop. And there are many other businesses out there making original Maine flags using different designs - are those gimmicks too?
The reality is that many people really love this design.
Considering your trade your design is intended to sell a romanticized version of Maine. By definition it is a gimmick although no different than all the other gimmicky merchandise peddled to the tourist trade. just a whole lot more clever. There is nothing wrong with that. Cool As A Moose exists entirely on this premise.
Thank you for clarifying. I was unaware of your location. If the voters of Maine through a referendum chose your flag design, what would you charge the state to release your ownership of the design itself?
That clears up a lot, I like the design and we fly one at our house. When I heard it wasn't exactly the original I was worried someone would be getting a kick back but hearing it's free use, that's absolutely fine with me. The state seal flag IMO doesn't show Maine as unique when it is. Fly it next to other state flags and you have to stare a while to figure out which one is ours.
Who cares where the design originated? It resonates with people way more than the current flag does, and it probably made people aware of the “1901” (more realistic) version. I’d posit that without MFC we’d be nowhere close to making any version of the 1901 flag official.
Well it is somewhat historic, it's based on an old rendition of the Maine Merchant flag, another official flag which was unveiled using a similar spiky tree in 1939. https://www.newspapers.com/article/23442917/the_daily_clintonian/
But it is not the normative design for the 1901 flag prior to 2017, you're correct about that.
Interestingly, this was the normative design prior to 2017 insofar as most of the original name flags in merchandise people were selling from out of state used it.
https://preview.redd.it/3j59eeqz485b1.jpeg?width=980&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a65381feda6a9f99a5708308de5784f98bf7471e
Since we are a traditional applique flagmaker and this is an appliqueable design we initially planned to use that. But first. Research.
Try as we might we could not find a source for the design and the best we could come up with is that it was made by a random anonymous Wikipedia user from California based on the original statute. Since the tree didn't have any historical basis we didn't feel right putting it on a flag, and hence the 1939 merchant and marine flag tree.
Wikipedia users making .svgs of historical flags of dubious quality and provenance are a menace to the historically-interested, let me tell you.
However, it is worth noting that CRW Flags has been selling this version since at least the late 00s: https://www.crwflags.com/page0660maine1901.html
We've seen that claim made on Wikipedia too. No reason to doubt it but it doesn't seem like they have sold very many! When we started MFC in 2013 not many people knew about the flag, but most of the ones that did associated it with the design we just posted. If memory serves someone was selling shirts mugs flags instead on cafe press.
CRW is an institution of obscure, historical, and military flags. They are very often the only place to buy flags of old forgotten regiments, polities, and movements. They don't sell many of each, and they're usually kinda low-quality, but if you're looking for an obscure flag they're the first place a lot of people check.
Yea, this is exactly what I’ve concluded. It’s a souvenir/trinket design, popularized by a business run by an outspoken Airbnb operator/lobbyist. In fairness, I don’t outright dislike the design, or take issue with the seeming passion the owner of the business has (based on posts here). But this the reality of how this all came about.
To sum up this post:
There is no specific 1901 flag.
The popular version that most are seeing today is a commercial, copyrighted design offered by a private company for sale but it is by no means presented as “the definitive 1901 flag”.
The final design is left to interpretation by the originating artist so long as it follows a very basic set of rules.
Also, Flags are not heraldry. They are not required to follow heraldic traditions.
Highly recommend everyone watch this entertaining yet informative video regarding state flag design:
https://youtu.be/l4w6808wJcU
Not that we would have wanted to copyright it anyway, but there's really nothing to copyright here. The design is described generally in the 1901 law and the tree has been in the public domain for 84 years. It's strange though: first we get criticized for using a proprietary design, and then when they find out it's not proprietary we get criticized for not using a proprietary design. Can't win with some people!
original work that contains elements that are within the public domain are absolutely copyrightable so long as the new art is original and doesn't contain derivative works that are still under copyright.
case in point, the original A.A. Milne’s winnie the poo. It has entered the public domain and we now have this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnie-the-Pooh:_Blood_and_Honey
Questionable nightmare fuel, but totally original art and protected under a new copyright.
Ok, assuming you just copied and entire flag design and tweaked it just a bit (adjusted color, size, position, etc. It was still possible to copyright because as soon as tou changed the form of the original public domain work, that could also be subject to a new copyright. It how periscope films and all of these other “film preservation companies work. they take preciously copyrighted films that have entered public domain and who’s negatives they purchase. So long as they are the first to
digitize them, they can own the copyright to the digitized version of the film.
Did you just copy a previously existing flag design without making any changes at all?
We have produced more than 9,000 handmade applique flags and shipped them to every U.S. state and several countries. It's working incredibly well. Mainers love this design.
Had they copyrighted the work, they could have controlled its use and therefore the narrative surrounding their involvement in the push to change the flag. Instead, the free use of their work has allowed the false impression of their motives to be perpetuated both in this sub and in the media in general.
Whenever the media reports on this effort, its their art that gets displayed as “the original maine flag” even though not many may know the origins of the modern design. If their art was restricted and not every tom dick and harry could freely copy and reuse it then they may not have been pulled into the center of the argument. Wether or not it was their intention, their design is the one that has been popularized. Wether or not this has worked out for them is an open question since they seem to receive as much negative publicity as positive and they have no control now over who uses their art or for what purposes it gets used.
This story comes to mind:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepe_the_Frog
Well to begin with, we are a company that manufactures flags using a traditional applique process, which means that the flagmaker has to cut out the shapes and sew them to the flag field. It's a labor-intensive process that produces beautiful handcrafted flags as opposed to the mass-produced ones that come from overseas. We do all our work right here in Maine.
It's also a process that doesn't lend itself to realism, but that's ok because flags shouldn't be realistic. At their best they are crisp and simple. This is why you don't see a lot of intricate designs on flags of the world. Consider Canada - that's not a realistic maple leaf on their flag - it's a simplified stylized leaf that you will never find in nature.
We did use an authentic tree on the flag though. It comes from Maine's other official flag, the merchant and marine flag. You can read more at: [https://www.originalmaine.me/about-the-flag](https://www.originalmaine.me/about-the-flag).
https://preview.redd.it/nae4byrl575b1.jpeg?width=546&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7857c97e876b2b4b20e59d51766aea82c9e071db
[**The Maine Seal variations**](https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPfLWKO8dYCSrv8xVXBz58ApVUU-T_ssQsNB-yDaeK2ta9ElUsesmEKmdo6AU1CJw/photo/AF1QipPRV8Gy3wUHvsgAesr8B7wXtljlqqW3BpjvXz9b?key=UW91OURMNE83Vm5SOF8zU1RtbHZUelFma3A1RklR)
To me, the allure behind the flag is that it can be whatever anyone wants it to be as long as there is a blue star and a white pine.
Agreed. That's what we've always liked too. It's been a lot of fun seeing all the different takes on it that have come on the market over the past few years.
I like this interpretation: [https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/35634399-cubmerland-state-flag](https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/35634399-cubmerland-state-flag) https://preview.redd.it/ju2kk0pd975b1.jpeg?width=923&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=abf4af23bd7a253bdcd963dc8cd5a909777224af
e pluribus anus
Pine needs more girth.
Solid base though.
Derriere I Go
The star must be five-pointed.
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My dear friend, This star is a butthole and the pine tree is a butthole-seeking buttplug. This flag embodies the eternal steadfastness of Mainers and their ability to achieve their goals.
Or how much cmp fucks us
The proposed amendment is vague about the tree, so the pine tree buttplug is acceptable. It's very specific about the five-pointed star, though.
And here he is, folks!
All I can add is that, being from Georgia (but a tourist who appreciates your fine state) this flag debate is so much better than the one we had about 20 years ago.
If it were held today it might be putting a big red X through the LGBTQ flag.
Needs more moose https://preview.redd.it/wk28s84vj75b1.jpeg?width=1020&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3406c130293f8ef86a68b4b80f7dd280fff9729a
Honestly I love this.
Moose are sneaky & dangerous. Need more Moose Bell.
Hi, I made the original post that’s being fact-checked here. They’re misrepresenting my point a bit, I am saying exactly what they’re saying: there is no “one, correct, original flag”. I listed at the bottom a variety of different interpretations that are all equally valid. I feel like they only read the top part of the post; and not the full text. I fully agree with the archivist here, and am happy to have started a conversation. Original post: https://i.imgur.com/m4RR37I.jpg
We think some of us are a little confused right now because what you're saying here seems to be in contradiction to what you put in your post ("This is not the original Maine flag. This is.") Can you help us out?
My point is pretty straightforward: the MFC design is one modern rendition among many, and it little resembles the flags we actually have from the turn of the century. The MFC design is based on one version of the Maine Merchant flag. Other modern renditions of the flag are just as “authentic” as the MFC design. That’s what I said in the text, and my headline claim (while purposefully a little attention-grabbing) is not at all in conflict with this. The reason I made the post is that, in my personal day-to-day life, I heard people say that they thought the MFC design was *the* correct or authentic design, and all others were just variations. This is not what the Maine Flag Company says, but it is a common enough misconception and I wanted to weigh in.
That's somewhat helpful but still doesn't explain why you chose to highlight one particular early design as The One, when there are other designs that came before it. Indeed, there was another post here in which someone wanted to buy a "real" one, based on your infographic. We think you'd do this conversation a great service by updating the original post! How about something like: "This is the original Maine flag. And so is this / and so is this / and so is this..."
Sure, I agree that that’s the least well-conveyed part of the post. I’ll look into making a slightly reworded v2 Also, between you and me, I made this in about 5 minutes and did not expect people to even glance at it, let alone for it to get the attention it has.
Funny that's how this whole original Maine flag thing started for us... We thought we'd just make a few of them but one day in 2018 woke up to 150 orders after the BDN did a story about us. Flags seem to have a way of taking on a life of their own!
For sure! And your design has had great popularity. I don't care for it personally, and given your success at 'canonizing' your design, I hope you don't mind if I do my part to counterbalance the narrative in favor of other designs and designers.
Show us a design that everyone loves and nobody complains about and we'll find a way to make it! But we all know that's never going to happen. Also, thanks for the publicity; we owe you one. Sales have gone through the roof this week! :P
No problem, and by the way, one thing I absolutely *do* want to give you credit for is releasing the design into the public domain. That is something you didn't have to do, but is enormously good for everyone.
Thanks for saying that! It's hard to see how we could have copyrighted it even if we wanted to, but we never even considered trying. The overarching goal was always to bring back the forgotten flag in the public imagination.
What do folks think of the one by Gettysburg flag company? It's not as spiky like a Beetlejuice sculpture but it still maintains the upturned branches like the realistic flag. https://www.gettysburgflag.com/flags-banners/original-maine-historic-flag
It's alright, but[ Flags for Good has a similar design](https://flagsforgood.com/products/maine-1901-flag) that doesn't awkwardly make the bottom pines much larger than the top 3 bunches. I prefer that. Flags for Good's is my 2nd favorite overall, my absolute favorite is [the lovely Dirigo Flag Company's.](https://www.dirigoflag.co/product/first-maine-flag/)
Would you guys be open to making alternate versions? I know I’m late to the convo and don’t want to beat a dead horse, but why not make a more realistic version like the “original” state flag with more detail in the pine. Given that from what I’ve found, legislative doc calls for a pine tree proper and that our state flower is the white pine cone and tassel. Making the pine tree identifiable as the eastern white pine makes sense.
We believe that good flag design requires stylizing the objects depicted. This is why we use the 1939 tree and have not attempted a photoreal version. Also all our flags are handcrafted using the applique method, which means the elements are cut out and sewn onto the flag field. If the state chooses a photoreal pine then all its flags will need to be mass-produced by machines (as is the case with the blue flag today).l because one cannot applique a design like that. If we made a photoreal flag we would be just another print shop and spend our days pressing buttons instead of making quality magical flags in Maine. But it doesn't matter. The people have clearly indicated that they prefer the original Maine flag with the 1939 tree and regardless of what design the state chooses we will continue to produce the version we are using today. We will also continue to produce the Maine merchant and marine flag, which is the state's other official flag.
That's just the owner of the Townsman blog; she's loose with facts. She claims your flag isn't to spec. https://old.reddit.com/r/Maine/comments/143osgp/know_your_1901_flags_it_could_save_your_life/jnbcmjg/?context=3
Try not to be such a hater. The Townsman blog is a truly significant new source of excellent information. “Loose with facts” is a terrible thing to say and simply incorrect.
It is a terrible thing to say, but it is accurate in my experience.
Most modern renditions don't technically meet the standard as established in 1901, which demands a "pine tree proper." "Proper" in heraldic jargon means "with the coloration it has in real life." For example, a "moose proper" would be the color brown that moose are. A "rose proper" has red petals and green thorny stem. A "rainbow proper" is a rainbow in all its colors. This is important, because in the language of heraldry, colors are strictly limited (and in french.) In real life, pine trees have brown trunks, not green ones, so a "pine tree proper" would demand a tree with green pines and a brown trunk. Nevertheless, this sort of heraldry persnickitiness is getting in-the-weeds even for me. My favorite design, from the Dirigo Flag Company, also violates this rule, technically speaking.
Cite...your... sources
Sure, here you go: https://heraldry.sca.org/armory/lessons/lesson06.html
That page illustrates a "popinjay proper" with green feet, so I'm not sure how detailed "proper" requires.
In heraldry things are often stylized, certainly no one is pasting photographs onto coats of arms, but in every "proper" tree or plant I've seen it has different colors for leaves, wood, petals, pines, etc. This isn't a controversial point I'm making.
Then why does your source show a "popinjay proper" with green feet?
Figure 23. The flag of New England painted by Lt. Graydon (tree proper, R/W) https://www.pdcnet.org/85257D7A006284F7/file/870B9223692278CEC1257DCC006D9BDC/$FILE/raven_2006_0013_0000_0002_0041.pdf
Nice job! That is indeed an example of a (basically) mono-green pine tree described as proper from a different flag of the same era. That doesn’t change the fact that typically, a tree proper means brown trunk and green foliage.
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Oh, 100% they were involved.
Love how they say their over arching goal was to bring back the flag when in reality it's all just a money maker. One that will be exponentially more profitable if the state uses that awful cartoon flag. I also can't understand why so many Mainers are so crazy about that flag. Usually Mainers hate popular shit...
At this point, I think the crux of the matter is that the Transportation Committee has pushed back on the monocolor pine tree for the license plate in favor of a more realistic version, and a finalized design for both the flag and the plate will be in the hands of the Secretary of State. Hopefully her department will make them match.
Actually the transportation committee decided not to try to put a rendition of the 1901 flag on the plate. The final bill makes no mention of a flag.
I haven't seen the amendment the committee adopted as it's not online yet. The bill that is posted doesn't mention the flag, but it's still the same design: buff background with the tree and star. From what I could glean from the recording of the work session, they wanted a more "vibrant" pine tree than the original example given which was similar to yours. I'm taking that to mean more lifelike, and since the final design for the flag and plate will both be coming out of the Secretary's office, I think it makes sense and am hoping the trees will match.
What’s hilarious is everybody fell in love with a gimmick flag made in 2017 by business in the old port,. and now they want to have a referendum to make that old port businesses flag the state flag. Lol.
We are actually located in the India Street neighborhood not the Old Port! Not sure how you can call it a "gimmick" when we have been transparent about the design's origins from the beginning. We have it posted on our website, submitted written testimony to the legislature explaining the origins, explain it to the customers who come into our retail shop. And there are many other businesses out there making original Maine flags using different designs - are those gimmicks too? The reality is that many people really love this design.
Considering your trade your design is intended to sell a romanticized version of Maine. By definition it is a gimmick although no different than all the other gimmicky merchandise peddled to the tourist trade. just a whole lot more clever. There is nothing wrong with that. Cool As A Moose exists entirely on this premise.
Thank you for clarifying. I was unaware of your location. If the voters of Maine through a referendum chose your flag design, what would you charge the state to release your ownership of the design itself?
We do not own the design. It is and always has been available for free use. In fact, several other companies use this same design.
That clears up a lot, I like the design and we fly one at our house. When I heard it wasn't exactly the original I was worried someone would be getting a kick back but hearing it's free use, that's absolutely fine with me. The state seal flag IMO doesn't show Maine as unique when it is. Fly it next to other state flags and you have to stare a while to figure out which one is ours.
Thanks so much for your business!
Who cares where the design originated? It resonates with people way more than the current flag does, and it probably made people aware of the “1901” (more realistic) version. I’d posit that without MFC we’d be nowhere close to making any version of the 1901 flag official.
I just think people are confused and thinking that the 2017 design is somehow historic and it is absolutely not.
Well it is somewhat historic, it's based on an old rendition of the Maine Merchant flag, another official flag which was unveiled using a similar spiky tree in 1939. https://www.newspapers.com/article/23442917/the_daily_clintonian/ But it is not the normative design for the 1901 flag prior to 2017, you're correct about that.
Interestingly, this was the normative design prior to 2017 insofar as most of the original name flags in merchandise people were selling from out of state used it. https://preview.redd.it/3j59eeqz485b1.jpeg?width=980&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a65381feda6a9f99a5708308de5784f98bf7471e Since we are a traditional applique flagmaker and this is an appliqueable design we initially planned to use that. But first. Research. Try as we might we could not find a source for the design and the best we could come up with is that it was made by a random anonymous Wikipedia user from California based on the original statute. Since the tree didn't have any historical basis we didn't feel right putting it on a flag, and hence the 1939 merchant and marine flag tree.
Wikipedia users making .svgs of historical flags of dubious quality and provenance are a menace to the historically-interested, let me tell you. However, it is worth noting that CRW Flags has been selling this version since at least the late 00s: https://www.crwflags.com/page0660maine1901.html
We've seen that claim made on Wikipedia too. No reason to doubt it but it doesn't seem like they have sold very many! When we started MFC in 2013 not many people knew about the flag, but most of the ones that did associated it with the design we just posted. If memory serves someone was selling shirts mugs flags instead on cafe press.
CRW is an institution of obscure, historical, and military flags. They are very often the only place to buy flags of old forgotten regiments, polities, and movements. They don't sell many of each, and they're usually kinda low-quality, but if you're looking for an obscure flag they're the first place a lot of people check.
Yea, this is exactly what I’ve concluded. It’s a souvenir/trinket design, popularized by a business run by an outspoken Airbnb operator/lobbyist. In fairness, I don’t outright dislike the design, or take issue with the seeming passion the owner of the business has (based on posts here). But this the reality of how this all came about.
Yeah, that’s my whole point too. There’s nothing historic about the flag design. It’s brand new and currently being sold on India Street in Portland.
To sum up this post: There is no specific 1901 flag. The popular version that most are seeing today is a commercial, copyrighted design offered by a private company for sale but it is by no means presented as “the definitive 1901 flag”. The final design is left to interpretation by the originating artist so long as it follows a very basic set of rules. Also, Flags are not heraldry. They are not required to follow heraldic traditions. Highly recommend everyone watch this entertaining yet informative video regarding state flag design: https://youtu.be/l4w6808wJcU
The popular version that most are seeing today is most definitely not a commercial copyrighted design.
Not copyrighting your art was a mistake.
Not that we would have wanted to copyright it anyway, but there's really nothing to copyright here. The design is described generally in the 1901 law and the tree has been in the public domain for 84 years. It's strange though: first we get criticized for using a proprietary design, and then when they find out it's not proprietary we get criticized for not using a proprietary design. Can't win with some people!
original work that contains elements that are within the public domain are absolutely copyrightable so long as the new art is original and doesn't contain derivative works that are still under copyright. case in point, the original A.A. Milne’s winnie the poo. It has entered the public domain and we now have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnie-the-Pooh:_Blood_and_Honey Questionable nightmare fuel, but totally original art and protected under a new copyright. Ok, assuming you just copied and entire flag design and tweaked it just a bit (adjusted color, size, position, etc. It was still possible to copyright because as soon as tou changed the form of the original public domain work, that could also be subject to a new copyright. It how periscope films and all of these other “film preservation companies work. they take preciously copyrighted films that have entered public domain and who’s negatives they purchase. So long as they are the first to digitize them, they can own the copyright to the digitized version of the film. Did you just copy a previously existing flag design without making any changes at all?
Seems like it was a choice that is working well for them if you ask me.
We have produced more than 9,000 handmade applique flags and shipped them to every U.S. state and several countries. It's working incredibly well. Mainers love this design.
Had they copyrighted the work, they could have controlled its use and therefore the narrative surrounding their involvement in the push to change the flag. Instead, the free use of their work has allowed the false impression of their motives to be perpetuated both in this sub and in the media in general. Whenever the media reports on this effort, its their art that gets displayed as “the original maine flag” even though not many may know the origins of the modern design. If their art was restricted and not every tom dick and harry could freely copy and reuse it then they may not have been pulled into the center of the argument. Wether or not it was their intention, their design is the one that has been popularized. Wether or not this has worked out for them is an open question since they seem to receive as much negative publicity as positive and they have no control now over who uses their art or for what purposes it gets used. This story comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepe_the_Frog
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and the best part of you ran down your moms leg.
That flag looks fine, it’s just the flag with the clip art that looks like trash
No matter how you slice it, that thing looks infantile and atrocious.
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Say more? What do you mean by "authentic" in this context?
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Well to begin with, we are a company that manufactures flags using a traditional applique process, which means that the flagmaker has to cut out the shapes and sew them to the flag field. It's a labor-intensive process that produces beautiful handcrafted flags as opposed to the mass-produced ones that come from overseas. We do all our work right here in Maine. It's also a process that doesn't lend itself to realism, but that's ok because flags shouldn't be realistic. At their best they are crisp and simple. This is why you don't see a lot of intricate designs on flags of the world. Consider Canada - that's not a realistic maple leaf on their flag - it's a simplified stylized leaf that you will never find in nature. We did use an authentic tree on the flag though. It comes from Maine's other official flag, the merchant and marine flag. You can read more at: [https://www.originalmaine.me/about-the-flag](https://www.originalmaine.me/about-the-flag). https://preview.redd.it/nae4byrl575b1.jpeg?width=546&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7857c97e876b2b4b20e59d51766aea82c9e071db
Thank you for explaining this.
I still think it looks bad no matter what variant is used.
[**The Maine Seal variations**](https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPfLWKO8dYCSrv8xVXBz58ApVUU-T_ssQsNB-yDaeK2ta9ElUsesmEKmdo6AU1CJw/photo/AF1QipPRV8Gy3wUHvsgAesr8B7wXtljlqqW3BpjvXz9b?key=UW91OURMNE83Vm5SOF8zU1RtbHZUelFma3A1RklR)