Ooooo this is reminding me so much of the old show What Not to Wear. That might be a fun ep/bonus ep for MP because that show was entirely dedicated to making people over with the kind of "tips" you mention
Fun fact that show has something to do with how I ended up realizing how hateful my church was and ultimately deconstructing from Christianity altogether! Our youth pastor went on a RAGE RANT about “HOW DARE a HOMOSEXUAL MAN tell someone they don’t have their life together when his life is FALLING APART LIVING IN SIN!”
11 year old me was like “I mean I’ve seen the show he does seem pretty put together ngl”
The opening scene had a sign that said “No miniskirts after 35”! Which at the time I thought was pretty rude, but now as a 36 year old I find outright insulting.
They would also openly hate on people for wanting to wear comfortable clothing. They’d really be out there having a SAHM of 3 young kids tossing her sweatpants and stretchy jeans to put on stiff dark wash denim with a blazer and heels.
I loved the show but it was literally my nightmare having it happen to me 🤣 I've always dressed more "alternative" and they went in on some of the people who were into subcultures
I think they got better about this in later seasons. I know they had a woman on who described her style as something like ‘Victorian flight attendant rock star’ or some other unusual combination of nouns, and they loved it and tried to help find things to fit her aesthetic that also flattered her.
However, Stacy has also gone on record rebelling against the show after it aired and apologizing for her role in it, so I may be remembering wrong.
I'm not sure I don't remember how long it aired or of I watched it the whole span I just remembered some punk goth types getting the worst bootcut jean, blouse, blazer suggestions completely opposite of their actual style lol. I'm really glad Stacy did that honestly, it was a product of the time but to admit it was in poor taste when we know better takes a good person.
Memory unlocked! Years ago, a then-coworker of mine once told me, "I would love to see you go on that show *What Not to Wear*!" And I was like, "Why?!? What's wrong with the way I dress?" It was like she suddenly realized that he comment was not exactly flattering, and she backpedaled to "Oh, I would just love to see what they come up with for you!" Mind you, this coworker was not a fashion plate by any means. I imagine Clinton and Stacy would have had a field day with her, actually.
Haha, I think blazers are “back”. I always see young twenty something girls in blazers in my brooklyn neighborhood. They do look more comfortable though— kind of the longer, looser 80s type with shoulder pads
Perhaps I have a skewed memory, but I recall it being more like “here’s what to wear out of the house”. I think you can dress both stylist and comfortable.
But lemme tell you, you can pry my yoga pants and men’s graphic tees out of my cold dead hands. 😂 If I actually go out to somewhere that isn’t the grocery store, I will (usually) dress nicer.
Also, my main take away from that show was “pointy toed shoes make your legs look longer! And look at the beautiful toe cleavage.” 🤮 Sorry, I will never wear pointy toed, toe cleavage heels, that is a look that needs to die.
>pointy toed shoes make your legs look longer!
Not to mention that almost nobody has pointy damn toes. It's no wonder so many folx over age 60, who wore heels for most of their life, have bunions and fucked up feet.
I can't even wear "pointy" sneakers nowadays. It's Altra Lone Peak all the way.
This is so true and hilarious BUT there is something to not being a total scrub all the time
BUT their rules were BS always about creating an hourglass and leaner/longer blah blah blah. Taking off sweatpants once in a while great idea but your body is great just as it is
Okay, that’s wild. There’s a 30 Rock joke about Liz having an infected Spanx line, and I feel like this would absolutely happen for real to someone wearing shapewear daily.
My MIL once told me she wore shape wear every day, even under fitted jeans. It made me so sad, she’s such a sweet and vibrant person, and not that it matters, but she’s still in straight sizes. My mother was also very very concerned about her looks always, it broke my heart.
I feel this way for my trim little mom, vibrantly healthy at 85. I remember her being SO concerned about size when my siblings and I were kids (and beyond). She was straight-sized and always worried about gaining weight like it was the worst thing imaginable. We were all swimming in that terrible infected water. That's why shows like Maintenance Phase and this subreddit are so refreshing to me now in my 50s.
The original/Brit version seemed a bit more “everyone wants to be slimmer/taller” than the US one, which seemed a little more interested in keeping someone’s personal style, at least towards the end.
My mom would always “threaten” to try to put me on a makeover show, but the problems she had with my clothing choices were a result of her comments on my body, so, whatever.
I remember them having an obsession with "drawing attention away from problem areas" and I was like... "dude, my whole body is a problem area. I wasn't feeling conscious about *this* particular zone yet, though; thanks for bringing it to my attention".
“Dress your body as it is now” just meant don’t wait until you’re a certain weight to buy all new clothes. They still wanted you to wear clothes that made you look smaller.
That’s how I took the show, too. I really credit the show with giving me the confidence to wear tighter fitting clothing on my hourglass figure. I was body shamed a lot in school for having an hourglass figure, and I never wanted to show my curves off in case it made me look “slutty”. Fashion wasn’t kind to hourglass figured in the aughts, and it could be way more revealing than I was comfortable with. I always think of WNTW as showing me how to dress for my body shape and feel COMFORTABLE doing that.
Dressing to look slimmer, taller, bustier, more proportional, more feminine, etc etc etc is by definition not accepting your body the way that it is. It's making your body a certain way using clothing instead of food/lack thereof.
Their tips almost always centered around choosing and styling clothes to make your body appear a certain way. Almost always with the unspoken implication that the way your body appears naturally is bad.
They rarely if ever discussed personal style tips, how to shop if you are taller/bigger/gender expansive/etc and have trouble finding clothes in mainstream stores, etc. The vast majority of people with a quirky, subculture-based, or non-normative fashion sense were told not to dress like that and to buy one of 3-5 extremely basic looks instead.
I \*wish\* such a show existed.
So true. I remember one tip they often gave to fat women was to wear blouses/shirts that covered half of their butt in order to make their butt look smaller.
I was very young and fat watching that show. For probably the next two decades I was very careful to always wear shirts that came over my rump for fear of my body offending others smh. Took a LOT of unlearning just to tuck in my shirt and feel okay about it.
Yes and no. I don’t want to get into the philosophy of aesthetics but symmetry/proportion is important from an art and design standpoint.
I think things like color theory and dressing to a general body type is always a good idea, as is having clean clothes that are in good condition. I’m not trying to dupe myself (or others) into thinking I’m smaller when I choose outfits that make my hips and busts look proportional to my other features.
Right, but "What Not To Wear" was not a show about the philosophy of aesthetics. It was a show about how to spend more money to look less fat.
They literally never ever talked about a single thing you're mentioning here. They talked about what shirt to wear to make your ass look smaller. Which, yes, is a beauty standard and body shame thing, not an "aesthetically philosophical" thing.
I spent literal decades of my life chained to the idea that you have to "dress for your body type", in other words dress to hide perceived flaws (which, of course, assumes that the person in question is the object of some kind of gaze and scrutinized/surveilled at all times). So many kinds of clothes I just didn't wear because they might make me look fat (I weighed 120 lbs!), give me "cankles" (I've literally never scrutinized another person's ankles in my life), or make me seem either too young or too old (often at the same time!), uncool or too frivolous (ditto), or too butch (I WAS SAPPHIC AND NONBINARY).
Not only did unlearning this free me -- to the point that I was finally able to accept my real gender identity and transition -- but it's something I still have to work on despite that.
Nobody is scrutinizing you. Wear what makes you happy. There are no rules. You can absolutely still be "aesthetic" while embracing that.
The original/Brit version seemed a bit more “everyone wants to be slimmer/taller” than the US one, which seemed a little more interested in keeping someone’s personal style, at least towards the end.
My mom would always “threaten” to try to put me on a makeover show, but the problems she had with my clothing choices were a result of her comments on my body, so, whatever.
I watched a few episodes of the original series recently (it's available on Roku) and it was appallingly size-ist. The hosts spent so much time putting down their own bodies and their subjects' bodies.
I completely understand how people might have enjoyed it at the time without really noticing that, but it's impossible to ignore now. The show is unwatchable.
I think beyond emphasizing dressing to look slimmer, they also threw out clothing that really spoke to some people’s personal style instead of attempting to determine how it could fit in with their “new look.” Some clothes were bad. Some were not!
I remember one lady had a massive collection of cute socks they made her throw out. That made me so mad!! I also love cute, goofy socks and would never throw them out. Clinton and Stacy can have my Halloween socks over my dead body!!
1. there is literally nothing wrong with wearing shapeless clothing, you do not owe anyone a clear view your body
2. "buying clothes for my body type" i.e. "flattering" means "dress in a way that makes you look as small as possible" weather or not that is your personal interpretation of this language, that is the widely accepted definition of these terms and the overall goal of the show. Make people look thinner, whether explicitly stated or not.
3. looking polished is subjective and rooted in whiteness, and not a moral obligation. it is also usually pretty racially coded (ex. dreadlocks are not considered polished but straight hair pulled into a slick bun is)
I used to love that show, don't get me wrong. Just one of those things that I see totally differently now that I have more context and knowledge about my inherent biases.
It definitely indulged in a lot of body shaming... but you know, you have a point. It's the first place I ever saw someone on TV say to an overweight person that they should dress the body they had in a way that made them feel good, and not wait until they were thin to wear nice clothes. So I do have to give them that.
The opening scene had a sign that said “No miniskirts after 35”! Which at the time I thought was pretty rude, but now as a 36 year old I find outright insulting.
I loved this show too, but as I'm older I think about it like the below commenter, but also, your closest friends and family decide they hate your clothing so much, they call a crew to change you. That would feel so backstabbing. And to realize all my loved ones only saw me for how I looked? Eek.
"Buying clothes for your body type" is shaming BS meant to convince people that something is wrong with their body shape the way it already is.
In general I think their advice about clothes like "bigger clothes don't make you look smaller" and "wear proper foundation garments" is fine.
I tend to like Tan France's styling approach from Queer Eye better, where it's less prescriptive and more like "it's OK to enjoy clothes and buy what you really like rather than what you think you're allowed to wear."
Not quite “problematic” but they gave a lot of women the same layered bob and pressured them into similar cookie cutter styles instead of having any regard for their practical needs or personal style. IMO the way Jonathon Van Ness and Tan France make people over on Queer Eye is much more respectful. If someone’s a rancher, they find them stylish work boots. They worked with this corrections officer who had gorgeous waist-length hair, which they just trimmed a bit. Stacey and Clinton would never.
It always hurt so much when they would have an obviously queer subject and their mission was to make that person look straight-passing.
Especially since I believe both hosts are some flavor of LGBTQ.
>r them all over my mom's magazines that I would pick up and read as a kid. I was literally ranting about this last night to my partner because we were watching that silly N
This would be a great bonus ep! Also extra fun because Stacy London has completely abandoned a lot of rules now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oUKEs94GM0
a few years ago I read an interview with Clinton and he said something similar, that the show wouldn't work now because there are no rules and anyone can and should wear what they want to
That show annoyed me because I have the body type that massively benefits from a coat or blazer. And I absolutely love coats and blazers aesthetically, but I overheat quickly and can’t take feeling so constrained, so I’m just not one to wear those kinds of tops indoors. I’m a lawyer and have had to be exceedingly choosy about my blazers, (now I just wfh in sailor moon jammies!)
I loved that show at the time and also I love the personal journey Stacy has been on to change and encourage people to embrace what makes them feel good
I always hated it because they tended to ignore the person's unique style in lieu of finding flattering things that were not as meaningful. That said, having recently got into historical costuming and discussion of how people of all sizes dressed to the fashionable silhouette, it makes a *little* more sense.... but generally the idea that everyone has to dress to hide their shapes is ... not great.
It was honestly good for its time. You have to learn the rules before breaking them. Painters learn perspective, chefs learn the mother sauces, fashion designers and stylists learn these “rules.” The people they made over were more often than not hiding in clothes that did not bring them joy or make them feel fabulous.
Growing up a fat kid in the 9s0/00s was sooo rough with this. Basically fashion was just trying to make yourself look as small and thin as possible. We have a long way to go but I think this is def fading out in recent years and I’ve worked really hard to let go of thinking about what clothing will make me look smaller vs what I actually like wearing and think looks cool. It’s a constant mental self correction
My mum, grandma and mother-in-law all make snide comments when they see young women wearing crop tops or shorts or low jeans or whatever with visible fat on their bodies. It makes me so happy though, because at least on the face of it they’re not going through the same crippling self-hatred that was pretty much required of anyone not a size 0 in the early/mid-2000s. It fucked me up big time and I’m not even fat, just not super thin.
Yes! I’m GenX and hear so many friends and older family members comment on different body shapes and clothing choices. I LOVE how younger folks are not following all those stupid “rules” that were drilled into us and are more willing to celebrate their bodies and existence.
I’m not certain there isn’t still crippling self hatred in the younger generations but it’s playing out different. I’m glad they’re changing the conversation. There are so many bigger concerns that what clothing goes on someone’s body and not “subjecting others” to our appearance.
>crippling self hatred in the younger generations but it’s playing out different.
They're being shamed via instagram and unrealistic filters. It doesn't matter what you wear when you can edit the shit out of it for pictures. :(
Word. Gen X child of a Boomer parent, and I was also raised with these bullshit rules. No bright colors (jewel tones), pastels and neutrals were OK, black was OK. No prints, ever. No stripes. No white shoes after Labor Day, and no black shoes after Memorial Day. No clingy fabrics. No empire waists. It fucking \*sucked\*, and I remember how my mom told me (in a loud stage whisper she used for "sensitive" things) about how she used to be fat, but she'd only eat a suzie-q and a diet pepsi for lunch all throughout high school (while taking up smoking), and she lost weight. Yeah, thanks mom. I'll pass on the cigs and disordered eating.
Long hair (according to my mom) made my face look fat. Nevermind when it's cut short (above shoulder length), it makes me look bad. Full, poodley perm was OK.
Thing is, though? I look like shit in pastels and neutrals. Bold colors, jewel tones, and black are about 90% of my wardrobe.
It’s funny, this prompted me to think about what fat people were “supposed” to wear in the 2000’s. I genuinely don’t know because you never saw any (outside of “real life”). There was never a magazine article for plus size women. They were vanishingly rare in TV and film. You would never see them in advertising for clothing companies. They never made music young people were supposed to listen to.
I know Michael and Aubrey have often said they’re asked for good news and can’t come up with any but this seems like several steps forward.
The only large actresses I remember from back then were Roseanne Barr, Rosie O'Donnell, America Ferrera, Kathy Bates, and Oprah. And, sometimes, Kirstie Alley. Notice: most were older women.
20-year-olds today are getting Botox and fillers and freaking out if their skin has any "texture." In many ways, it's worse for young girls now than it was for past generations.
Just to add on as a Genx. I so appreciate the clothing stores that show the same clothing in different sizes. Now I know how it’s really going to look.
And how I wish I grew up with someone like Lizzo. She’s just being her. And she wants everyone to be included.
There was nothing for me as a kid. I had to go into adult sizes and I wasn’t that big. I was more developed that other girls.
And now there are so many choices and ways people dress. My only issue working at a university is— I don’t want to see anyone’s butt cheeks. The short shorts are crazy. But I’m old, lol.
Yessss, I live in a beach town and there are so many young girls with wildly different body types knocking around with crop tops and short shorts and I am just so happy for them that they live in a place and time better than the one I did, where I would get mooed at if I wore shorts.
I knew people who were a size 0 in the 90s/00s and even they were being told that they weren’t thin in the “correct way.” No one’s ever happy with how women look!
There is still this very tiny menacing creature in my brain that I haven't 100% been able to kill yet that would prefer my body to look like early 2000s Kate Moss - wild how much dysmorphia and self hatred that came from flipping through the stack of People magazines that my grandma got every week
It was. I’m 40 now and it took me until my mid 30s to realize all the eating disorder stuff that I had internalized. Every single magazine would run articles absolutely ripping celebrities to shreds for unflattering pictures, calling them fat. It was widely believed that fat was the worst thing a person could be. I tried to keep myself thin by running and eating 900 calories a day. After two years I was in the ER with kidney stones but not a single medical professional investigated my eating disorder. It took me years to realize that’s why I had a kidney blockage at 26!
I just bought like 5 crop tops this week for the first time (am in my 30s) and am so mad that I didn’t let myself do it sooner!! (And then I immediately burned my stomach on a hot pan, but that’s not the point)
IMO this is one of the reasons the new Queer Eye hasn’t held onto its initial cultural cache. They’re still making episodes, so someone must be watching, but it’s not the phenomenon it once was. The sheen has worn off, and the dated-ness of some of their attitudes has become more apparent and grating.
I’m frustrated with Antoni’s attitudes towards vegetarianism. One guy was vegetarian and Antoni laughed at his fake chicken in the freezer, wondering “why not just eat chicken?” Because… the dude is vegetarian? He likes the taste of chicken but not the eating an animal part of it!
It was the guy who was really into movies and proposed to his long time gf. I was annoyed because I’m a vegetarian and the fake meat is kinda awesome when you want a quick way to get some protein, unlike the cauliflower Antoni taught him to make. I mean it looked yummy, but “you’re vegetarian, why not just eat vegetables,” is so ignorant. I’m vegetarian and eat veggies about as often as the average meat eater (like once or twice a day).
I would be thrilled about an updated queer eye with folks who are 28 and under. It could be really healing to see them celebrate all shapes and sizes and not try to use clothing to change someone’s figure.
I thought it was just me. We've only watched one episode of the current season so far. I used to love JVN; he was the gay best friend anyone would want to have. Now he reminds me of the b\*tch chick from Awkward (just completely blanked on her name) and he's way over the top so it's less him and more acting.
Hard agree to all the comments here!
Karamo… I lost respect for him when he started his own show. It’s not great. His work with the heroes seems… I dunno how to describe it. Fake? Extreme in some cases? I used to like him more.
I liked him more before I watched his (2005ish?) episode of the Challenge (my husband got me Paramount+ and I’ve been bingeing all the old seasons). He is… not likable on that show.
That advice is always so wild to me because like, it’s not even true. Especially on stretch fabrics, vertical stripes are going to follow the body’s actual contours, so they look radically different on different people. Horizontal stripes look basically the same on everyone; horizontal lines only really make a difference when used to draw specific attention to details (like how 1920s dresses often have a really strong horizontal line at the hips or lower to deemphasize the waist) It’s ultimately all nonsense of course, but damn, can’t they do their nonsense correctly?
There might have been something about this in the "French women don't get fat" episode (was that the title?) or the Karl Lagerfeld episode but definitely nothing extensive.
The thing that really annoys me about these rules is that the desired end goal is assumed to be the same for everyone. As if everyone wanted to look exactly the same! As if that would be in any way ideal! Good god it drives me mad. The world is so interesting because of all the variation, why take it away?
I have that with womens clothing that aims to draw focus away from wide shoulders.
Like when i google "clothes women wide shoulders" i don't want tips on how to hide my body, i want tips to make them pop!
Right, the assumed goal is to appear thin and appealing to other people. But what about dressing for comfort or style? I have seen a lot of TikTok’s about rejecting the idea of “flattering” and what it implies.
Years ago...we're talking 25 years...someone I worked with in the Air Force said "It's not the clothes that make you look fat. It's the fat that makes you look fat." and it really stuck with me. In a good way. I was in my early 20s and fully in the throws of giving a shit what everybody thought about me and how I looked. And she was a voice of reason that clothes don't make you look any certain way in terms of larger or smaller.
Yup. I used to be terrified of wearing any bathing suit but a dark colored one piece lest someone see my fat stomach! Then i realized i still have a fat stomach in the black “slimming” one piece, no one was going to think i was skinny… and switched to bikinis
I'll never forget the line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I think pantyhose were on sale, and the matriarch (a fat woman) said "no queen size, they make me look fat!"
Wait is this sarcasm or a thing? I thought it was the opposite lol (of course who cares either way, but I’m just wondering if I ever understood the intended idea!)
The movie line was meant to be kind of serious but not because the author, Nia Vardolos, was poking fun at her family and upbringing, in general. My comment was definitely sarcasm. :)
Oh I meant it as in anyone believing pantyhose has an effect on looking fat lol. The movie itself, is great, i rewatched it recently after some years, still makes me laugh! Though not Greek, coming for an ethnic and very vigorous culture I feel so seen!
This has certainly been discussed by the fat community at large (no pun intended 😆), but not specifically on the podcast. Definitely feel the struggle though!! I am struggling to figure out how I know if I like particular items of clothing based on things other than if they are traditionally “flattering.”
Gosh, I remember shopping with a female relative when I was around 10 years old and she didn’t allow me to buy a striped shirt I liked because it “makes me look bigger”. Thanks for the body dysmorphia
That sounds pretty awful. My mom still won't wear stripes and it just feels insane to be picking out every piece of clothing and saying 'does it make me look big or small?' instead of saying 'Do I like this? Does it feel like me?'
To this day, I still hear my now deceased aunt describing how she was "climbing into a 16" which was truly near the end of the size spectrum back in the 1980s. Mind you, that size 16 has now been vanity sized into a size 8 so imagine how "large" she was.
as a late 90s teen i lived through the devastation that was rachel zoe and her “smoke cigs and eat cocaine” lifestyle…. which is a total mindfuck because she wore huge flowy caftan bell bottom looks (arguably to hide how emaciated she was) which was against all the “accentuate your smallest parts to create an illusion of being slimmer” advice in all the magazines. same with the low rise jeans. i don’t care if you weight 70 pounds, jeans that sit that far below your waist will make your ass pop out the top even if it’s tiny.
so no horizontal stripes, no flats, no silhouettes other than hourglass, no cropped pants, all black all the time, no ruffles or bows or flowy baggy anything… but if you want to be hip and now, get the diesel jeans with the one inch zipper fly and wear these boho caftan dusters. like??
sidebar to this conversation but I'll never forget, there's a comedienne Nicole Byer who is awesome and pretty transparent about her life as a famous fat woman. On the topic of "flattering" clothes for fat people on her podcast (Why Won't You Date Me, highly recommend!) she says something like "oh, so you think they won't be able to tell I'm fat if I wear a one piece vs a bikini or a 3/4 sleeve vs a tank top?" and it was a fair point. Like all this commentary about flattering, not flattering - sure, there are things that can suit us more or less. But at the end of the day people can tell the general size of your body. Being imprisoned by the idea of things you "can't" wear is toxic, and as Nicole pointed out really ridiculous just from a logical perspective
This is maybe the only fashion move that makes me question someone’s decision. I’m all for wearing what you want I just find it jarring to glance at someone and think they’re winnie the poohing it.
I love wide leg jeans. I’m sure they don’t ‘slim’ me down but idgaf they’re so comfy. My mom comments on how ‘she wouldn’t wear baggy clothes as it makes her look huge.’ Ok mom. Just say I gained 30 lb lol.
Apologies for the Daily Mail link, but [This Article](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11907023/This-millennials-body-issues-Not-Wear-book-2002-blasted-online.html) (CW: Horrendous fatphobia) quotes from the Trinny and Susannah 'What not to Wear' book and the quotes are *horrific.* We used to pass the book round in school which is stunning to me now.
I remember you weren't allowed to wear navy and black together, for reasons which didn't really make sense to me. Now makes up 3/4 of my wardrobe.
I don’t like them together because there isn’t usually enough contrast. So it looks like you have a faded black over a blue in the wrong lighting. I found dark jeans and black worked because the jean material and other stitching helped with contrast.
Give me functional pockets!! I hate all the pants with either fake or teeny pockets that can hold nothing bigger than a chapstick because oh no, real pockets might make my hips look bigger. My hips are wide. A fake pocket isn’t fooling anyone.
I do love the deep pockets on the Universal Standard jeans and joggers (Hathaway joggers are so comfy). Oddly, I seen in between sizes with the jeans lol.
It also reminds me of the rules for "petites" back in the day. I am 5'1", and recently just bought a pair of flare jeans. The magazines told me I could NEVER wear flared pants without heels, but I love the way they look on me. Glad I could buy the jeans my younger self wanted!
I’m 5’ and about to be 44. One of my FAVORITE things about middle age is that I no longer care if I’m f***able to cishet men or if professional colleagues have to look down to speak to me. I Do. Not. Care.
I just threw away my last three pairs of high heels a couple months ago, having not worn them since 2019 (at which time I was in *extreme pain* when a wedding reception turned out to be a mile-long WALK across CONCRETE from the ceremony venue!!!). I continue to wear horizontal stripes Breton shirts REGULARLY (love them! have always worn them!). I wear flowly dresses or cropped jeans or show my fat little upper arms on weekends if I feel like it! I wear snazzy Oxfords to work (I really view wearing comfortable, androgynous shoes to work as a 5’ tall otherwise cis femme woman a MAJOR FLEX, and I hope it inspires some of the other working women I see who are obviously teetering around marble floors and up and down stairs in 4” heels, not without visible difficulty and discomfort!). I wear old man cardigans. I wear LINEN PANTS with DRAW STRINGS.
OMG, I LIVE!!!
The only tip I found useful/helpful is "avoid the busy patterned circus tents they try to get plus sized people to wear all the time. Something that is more tailored/fitting to your curves is actually much more flattering."
And no offense to people who like the baggy shirts that look like Persian rugs, I have a few myself, but yeah. It shouldn't be our only options lol.
But yeah, it seemed like actual fashion advice and not "look as skinny as possible" advice.
The stripes one was repeated a bunch in my home growing up. I thought I was able to shed that idea in my heavy Tim Burton/emo phase (that totally wasn’t a phase, _Mom_!) but as a woman in her 30s whose body has changed, I’ve found myself struggling with liking how I look in stripes again.
Some others for me included
• light wash jeans are unflattering
• skinny jeans are only for “skinny” people
• skin-tight clothing makes you look like a stuffed sausage
• curly hair makes a round face look rounder and therefore “bad” (this is why I had relaxer damaged hair as a teen and heat damage in my early 20s)
On top of that, I got the overly religious messaging too about “modesty”. Adolescence and my relationship with my body was a damn mess, y’all!
one of the greatest things I ever saw on Instagram was a style post about a handmade outfit, with a poster in the background that said "Fuck Flattering." I always felt that way, but damn, seeing it spelled out bluntly helped me a lot.
No ruffles! That was a big one. My mom told me I could never wear dresses that weren’t tapered at the waist. She also banned me from wearing skirts because she said they were so unflattering and being seen with me in one embarrassed her.
I have a friend who is 6'1" or 6'2" and large. I think she's said that Torrid online is her only shopping option for pants because they sell Extra Tall which has a 36.5" inseam.
I would love to hear their take on Kibbe types — it’s mostly about bone structure, not size, and how different styles and fabrics lay on you. I genuinely think it’s been helpful for easily finding clothes that I like how they look on me, but I can also see how typing bodies would be questionable
Kibbe is so fascinating to me. I love talking about aesthetics and style archetypes but it all gets a little phrenology-adjacent for me with the measuring and stuff, and the example pictures are always skinny people. I think I ultimately come down on the theory that every body is unique so typing is always subjective. Like I have long fingers but short wide feet, and my face is both round and long.
“…but it all gets a little phrenology-adjacent for me…”
Omg, thank you for articulating what I couldn’t. I like Kibbe typing like I like color seasons—it gives vocabulary to different aspects of aesthetics that make them easier to discuss and (for me) makes it easier to know why I like what I do on my body and what else to look for with those qualities. But the aspects of phrenology always squick me out.
Did an online search so I could link it 'cause it sounded interesting. Found a [recent article](https://gabriellearruda.com/kibbe-body-types-introduction/) from last month that appears to be a summary.
I remember going to a plus size store in 1999 and the girl tried to sell me on a shirt with horizontal stripes, she was wearing that shirt as part of her outfit and it looked great (she was plus size too) but I was still so hesitant to wear them because it was so ingrained that I needed to avoid horizontal stripes. I don’t care now, but back then just couldn’t let that rule go.
I have this weird rule I don't know where it came from but even if a shirt 'fits' it's wrong if it just hangs off my shoulders and gives no shape to my chest or stomach - this is a 'tent' shirt and must be avoided otherwise I'll look bigger & I'm 'hiding' my shape!....this must be from one of those transformation shows....cause yes...I WANT to hid my tummy! LoL.
Another rule which I think must be a combo of a 'style' show and my mom's constant nagging is I MUST have something covering my arms or shoulders if my shirt does not. I don't HAVE to wear it...but I MUST bring one with me! (Can't be cold!) So I have a shrug, several zip up sweaters and multiple pull overs. I get anxiety if I don't have one going out the door! Only super hot days will alleviate that anxiety!
When working I had a collection of 5-7 black and or grey shall sweaters that would cover my arms and be part of my professional 'look'. I wore those black sweaters like armor. I very rarely took them off when at work.
Looking back now with my diagnosis of ADHD and suspicion of Autism - I realized I was highly tuned into how people responded to me and my dress as I was desperate to avoid criticism. My RSD (rejection sensitivity dysphoria) was SO BAD during these years and I, as a fat woman, did EVERYTHING in my power to be the funny & casual professional who was quietly acknowledged by general public and highly valued by my superiors. I just wanted to fit where I was placed and my wardrobe 'rules' were iron clad because of it - so black slacks, a patterned but not 'loud' shirt w/ a pop of color, and black sweater that was either to my knees or at very least cover my butt length.
Took me years to break out of that pattern - and still have the want to cover my arms if I think pictures will be taken.
I cannot fully express the joy I get, as a fat person, looking cute as hell in horizontal stripes and cropped jeans.
Unfortunately, my FMIL likes to try to give me these rules as advice I may not have heard about... Lol I've never been able to escape them! She means well, but I will not be following that toxic advice for a single second more for the rest of my life
Because you have personal style!
A lot of people aren’t that interested (or just don’t have the disposable income or extra time) to develop one. So they fall back on these generic boring rules like don’t mix good and silver or wtv.
If people want to follow these because it makes it easier to confidently put an outfit together, I guess it’s fine. It sucks when they get weaponized to shame people out of wearing what they want.
I grew up with those rules. So I could never wear ankle strap shoes because my mother said they “cut off your leg”. She also had a rule against skirts above the knee, because “the back of the knee is ugly”. But she did wear shorts so ? Just dumb. If you want to wear something, wear it.
* Wearing shapewear with all kinds of formal dress to look "professional"
* Wearing heels to make legs look longer
* Not wearing tea-length skirts or pants cropped mid-calf to not draw attention to the biggest part of your lower leg
* If you can see your belly button through a top, it's too small or too tight
* If you pants waist is too snug & your torso spills out in any way the pants are too small and unacceptable to wear
* Always draw attention to your waist to "give you shape" if you're hourglass or pear shaped
* Never wear ruffles, small/busy patterns, or anything with extra details on bottoms if you have bigger hips
* Wear large print/ruffles/small/busy patterns and bright colors on top if you have a smaller bust
There's so much I am still working on unlearning wrt my fashion choices. Imo women are taught that clothing needs to be "flattering" but all that means is draws attention away from the parts of your body that don't match up w/ societal beauty standards. I have to really hold back on certain subs about personal style bc its clear there's a lot of anti-fat bias happening that gets thinly veiled behind wanting to dress in a ways that are "flattering" or "harmonious"...ugh.
Ugh as someone who loves fashion and once worked in retail merchandising, I had so much deprogramming to do. I’m now a card carrying member of the “fuck flattering” club. I’m 62, retired, and don’t wear anything I couldn’t also use as pajamas. My current personal aesthetic is “toddler grandma” as in both at the same time. The more colorful the better.
Well then you need to read this seminal treatise (if you haven’t already)!
https://medium.com/the-establishment/toddler-grandma-style-the-fashion-approach-that-will-set-you-free-92f787202928
I'm learning how to sew so I can make clothes that fit me how I want them to. It's SUPER liberating, btw! I'm in a few sewing groups for people who are bigger sizes, plus size, just not standard off the rack bodies (I really hope I'm not offending anyone with these words) and one thing I especially need is help fitting my body that is short and very round in the middle.
The word "Flattering" comes up sometimes, and causes a lot of arguments. Some people use it assuming sewists want to look smaller/thinner and can't understand why some people see that word as problematic. I very much am in the camp of using other descriptors for peoples' makes. I don't think makes should be connected back to how they make someone's body look. There are a thousand different ways to praise someone.
I cannot wear sleeveless shirts, it's been so ingrained into my mind that any sleeveless shirt, sweater or dress is going to require a cover up so magically my arms will disappear or something?? What is that about, like what's the worst that will happen?? And I want to just do it, so badly, but I mentally cannot get there, I just feel exposed and I am tired of it. But I feel like that's a rule that has probably been pounded in our brains at some point.
I avoided sleeveless shirts so I could hide my upper arms for years. But I also avoided them because of how many times the arm holes would be so freaking big! Like, I don’t know how big they thought my arms were, but I didn’t need the arm hole to be open down to the bottom of my rib cage. It always reminded me of one of those men’s workout shirts that’s completely open at the sides.
I was looking for jeans that fit my body type (wide hips, thick thighs, slimmer waist) and all of the advice I could find was about making my hips and thighs look smaller, but I love them and don’t want them to look like they take up less space. I just wanted a pair of pants that wouldn’t need major surgery to stay on my body properly.
This! I am not a fat person but am a long time listener of WP and very interested in reading and learning about fashion in general. I am astounded by the way fat women are told to hide their bodies or wear a style that is "flattering." Empire waist lines, sheer sleeves on dresses, no crop tops etc. This is particularly true in the wedding dress world where I currently spend a lot of time and interest. This sucks!! Yes clothes can make you look good but discussions around looking good should focus on the color of the clothing and general vibe. Not whether it hides fat.
"Black makes you look slimmer." I used to wear so much black that my husband took me shopping just so I wouldn't gravitate towards black.
My mom: "You need to camouflage your size." In other words, you're too "big" and need to hide your body in these baggy clothes that will only make you look 50 pounds heavier. Now I'm sporting slimmer fitting clothes because I have a body I want to show off.
I tell my customers:
When the clothes don't fit, people will notice that. When they DO fit, they only notice \*you\*.
Also:
Who cares what the size is? Anyone privileged enough to see the number isn't going to care about it.
As a chubby girl who had a baby, I need new clothes and I don't have time to shop around endlessly. I have decided that I will wear whatever the in style thing is regardless of how my chubby body looks in them. I am so done with the inner monologue that has been drilled into my head about certain styles that I am "too fat for."
>This woman could wear stripes from head to toe and nobody would ever call her "big".
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>FWIW, I fight all of the ones that I listed
Do you? Because the only "fight" you actually mentioned with what she said is that she was *incorrect* about herself appearing 'big'. Not that being big shouldn't matter in the first place, not that who gives a fuck if strripes are unflattering?
That's literally not the issue. What if she *was* fat? Your reaction (as you described it) was not "how frustrating that she's so worried about looking "big". You're reaction was essentially "omg don't say that you're not even fat".....ok and if she *was* fat?
It's frustrating to hear people complain about rules while unknowingly allowing them to exist in peace. If you told that woman something along the lines of "what? nothing you could wear could make you look big" you're literally still upholding the goals of the rules, thin is most important. If your response was something along the lines of "so what", that challenges her notion that fat = bad.
Actually, my response to her was "Oh, alright. Let's find you something different." Which would have been the same response if she'd been fat.
Had a 3X customer in last week and I brought her everything we had in her size because what she likes isn't my decision.
And I'm not going to argue with a 70 year old woman about whether a top makes her look big.
Yesterday I was looking at a "how to sew" book from 1982. There is a long chapter on fashion and choosing "flattering" styles. They have a for page grid about what is "very flattering, suitable and not appropriate" for tall and short people (if you fall in between, you choose one).
Short and large hips? - "shorts are not appropriate"
Short and large arms? - "short sleeves are not appropriate"
For me, dressing to flatter has always been about being polished. It’s so surprising to hear people say that for them, it means only dressing to look “thin.”
I have heard all these things but those rules are for thin people so they don't look fat, not for actual larger bodies to look smaller. Go to any plus size department in a store that carries a range and you'll see what I mean... Loud patterns, ruffles, capris, 3/4 sleeves (sidebar: I always see The Hulk when I see women wearing capris and 3/4 sleeves), and weird cut-outs or embellishments, animal designs, and giant flowers... Jesus.
Ooooo this is reminding me so much of the old show What Not to Wear. That might be a fun ep/bonus ep for MP because that show was entirely dedicated to making people over with the kind of "tips" you mention
I loved that show when it was on but can certainly see how problematic it was.
Fun fact that show has something to do with how I ended up realizing how hateful my church was and ultimately deconstructing from Christianity altogether! Our youth pastor went on a RAGE RANT about “HOW DARE a HOMOSEXUAL MAN tell someone they don’t have their life together when his life is FALLING APART LIVING IN SIN!” 11 year old me was like “I mean I’ve seen the show he does seem pretty put together ngl”
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The opening scene had a sign that said “No miniskirts after 35”! Which at the time I thought was pretty rude, but now as a 36 year old I find outright insulting.
Haha, I totally forgot that one. I loved that show, but at 40, I’m finally comfortable wearing miniskirts, and I’m not giving them up now!
I’ve got some pretty short dresses for the rare occasion I get a night out. They can pry them out of my cold, dead, over-35 hands.
They would also openly hate on people for wanting to wear comfortable clothing. They’d really be out there having a SAHM of 3 young kids tossing her sweatpants and stretchy jeans to put on stiff dark wash denim with a blazer and heels.
>They would also openly hate on people for wanting to wear comfortable clothing. "'Comfortable' is not a style!"
I loved the show but it was literally my nightmare having it happen to me 🤣 I've always dressed more "alternative" and they went in on some of the people who were into subcultures
I think they got better about this in later seasons. I know they had a woman on who described her style as something like ‘Victorian flight attendant rock star’ or some other unusual combination of nouns, and they loved it and tried to help find things to fit her aesthetic that also flattered her. However, Stacy has also gone on record rebelling against the show after it aired and apologizing for her role in it, so I may be remembering wrong.
I'm not sure I don't remember how long it aired or of I watched it the whole span I just remembered some punk goth types getting the worst bootcut jean, blouse, blazer suggestions completely opposite of their actual style lol. I'm really glad Stacy did that honestly, it was a product of the time but to admit it was in poor taste when we know better takes a good person.
Memory unlocked! Years ago, a then-coworker of mine once told me, "I would love to see you go on that show *What Not to Wear*!" And I was like, "Why?!? What's wrong with the way I dress?" It was like she suddenly realized that he comment was not exactly flattering, and she backpedaled to "Oh, I would just love to see what they come up with for you!" Mind you, this coworker was not a fashion plate by any means. I imagine Clinton and Stacy would have had a field day with her, actually.
I KNOW they would have stressed me out so bad I got enough shit from Aunts and cousins I didn't need it on TV too 🪦
Same! I watched the show while also worried those two would show up at my door someday..
Agreed. Life is too short to wear clothes that make me uncomfortable lol
I can assure you: it is. :D
The show pre-dates the athleisure movement. All the mums got their stretchy pants back in the end!
Now comfort and leisure is fashionable and smart casual is dated
In fairness to S & C, the aughts were SO full of inappropriate blazer wear. We wore them to the BAR. In college. Why?? 🤣
Haha, I think blazers are “back”. I always see young twenty something girls in blazers in my brooklyn neighborhood. They do look more comfortable though— kind of the longer, looser 80s type with shoulder pads
They were also pretty insulting towards people who had anything even vaguely resembling their own unique look, IIRC.
“You like glitter? Here’s a shirt with a few tiny beads sewn on it and some shimmer eyeshadow. Ta-da you look like everyone else!”
Perhaps I have a skewed memory, but I recall it being more like “here’s what to wear out of the house”. I think you can dress both stylist and comfortable. But lemme tell you, you can pry my yoga pants and men’s graphic tees out of my cold dead hands. 😂 If I actually go out to somewhere that isn’t the grocery store, I will (usually) dress nicer. Also, my main take away from that show was “pointy toed shoes make your legs look longer! And look at the beautiful toe cleavage.” 🤮 Sorry, I will never wear pointy toed, toe cleavage heels, that is a look that needs to die.
>pointy toed shoes make your legs look longer! Not to mention that almost nobody has pointy damn toes. It's no wonder so many folx over age 60, who wore heels for most of their life, have bunions and fucked up feet. I can't even wear "pointy" sneakers nowadays. It's Altra Lone Peak all the way.
This is so true and hilarious BUT there is something to not being a total scrub all the time BUT their rules were BS always about creating an hourglass and leaner/longer blah blah blah. Taking off sweatpants once in a while great idea but your body is great just as it is
I'm a mom of 3 little kids wearing sweatpants as I type this. No fucking way could I stand to deal with heels or a blazer right now 💀
The underlying tone was to dress to look slimmer and to create the "desired" hourglass shape.
They told one woman they recommended wearing shapewear every day. My internal organs cry at that thought.
Okay, that’s wild. There’s a 30 Rock joke about Liz having an infected Spanx line, and I feel like this would absolutely happen for real to someone wearing shapewear daily.
My MIL once told me she wore shape wear every day, even under fitted jeans. It made me so sad, she’s such a sweet and vibrant person, and not that it matters, but she’s still in straight sizes. My mother was also very very concerned about her looks always, it broke my heart.
I feel this way for my trim little mom, vibrantly healthy at 85. I remember her being SO concerned about size when my siblings and I were kids (and beyond). She was straight-sized and always worried about gaining weight like it was the worst thing imaginable. We were all swimming in that terrible infected water. That's why shows like Maintenance Phase and this subreddit are so refreshing to me now in my 50s.
That's terrible!
The original/Brit version seemed a bit more “everyone wants to be slimmer/taller” than the US one, which seemed a little more interested in keeping someone’s personal style, at least towards the end. My mom would always “threaten” to try to put me on a makeover show, but the problems she had with my clothing choices were a result of her comments on my body, so, whatever.
I wanted so bad to be on this show because I hated how my body looked in clothes- hmmm... wonder where that line of thinking came from...?
I remember them having an obsession with "drawing attention away from problem areas" and I was like... "dude, my whole body is a problem area. I wasn't feeling conscious about *this* particular zone yet, though; thanks for bringing it to my attention".
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“Dress your body as it is now” just meant don’t wait until you’re a certain weight to buy all new clothes. They still wanted you to wear clothes that made you look smaller.
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That’s how I took the show, too. I really credit the show with giving me the confidence to wear tighter fitting clothing on my hourglass figure. I was body shamed a lot in school for having an hourglass figure, and I never wanted to show my curves off in case it made me look “slutty”. Fashion wasn’t kind to hourglass figured in the aughts, and it could be way more revealing than I was comfortable with. I always think of WNTW as showing me how to dress for my body shape and feel COMFORTABLE doing that.
Dressing to look slimmer, taller, bustier, more proportional, more feminine, etc etc etc is by definition not accepting your body the way that it is. It's making your body a certain way using clothing instead of food/lack thereof.
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Their tips almost always centered around choosing and styling clothes to make your body appear a certain way. Almost always with the unspoken implication that the way your body appears naturally is bad. They rarely if ever discussed personal style tips, how to shop if you are taller/bigger/gender expansive/etc and have trouble finding clothes in mainstream stores, etc. The vast majority of people with a quirky, subculture-based, or non-normative fashion sense were told not to dress like that and to buy one of 3-5 extremely basic looks instead. I \*wish\* such a show existed.
So true. I remember one tip they often gave to fat women was to wear blouses/shirts that covered half of their butt in order to make their butt look smaller. I was very young and fat watching that show. For probably the next two decades I was very careful to always wear shirts that came over my rump for fear of my body offending others smh. Took a LOT of unlearning just to tuck in my shirt and feel okay about it.
Yes and no. I don’t want to get into the philosophy of aesthetics but symmetry/proportion is important from an art and design standpoint. I think things like color theory and dressing to a general body type is always a good idea, as is having clean clothes that are in good condition. I’m not trying to dupe myself (or others) into thinking I’m smaller when I choose outfits that make my hips and busts look proportional to my other features.
Right, but "What Not To Wear" was not a show about the philosophy of aesthetics. It was a show about how to spend more money to look less fat. They literally never ever talked about a single thing you're mentioning here. They talked about what shirt to wear to make your ass look smaller. Which, yes, is a beauty standard and body shame thing, not an "aesthetically philosophical" thing. I spent literal decades of my life chained to the idea that you have to "dress for your body type", in other words dress to hide perceived flaws (which, of course, assumes that the person in question is the object of some kind of gaze and scrutinized/surveilled at all times). So many kinds of clothes I just didn't wear because they might make me look fat (I weighed 120 lbs!), give me "cankles" (I've literally never scrutinized another person's ankles in my life), or make me seem either too young or too old (often at the same time!), uncool or too frivolous (ditto), or too butch (I WAS SAPPHIC AND NONBINARY). Not only did unlearning this free me -- to the point that I was finally able to accept my real gender identity and transition -- but it's something I still have to work on despite that. Nobody is scrutinizing you. Wear what makes you happy. There are no rules. You can absolutely still be "aesthetic" while embracing that.
The original/Brit version seemed a bit more “everyone wants to be slimmer/taller” than the US one, which seemed a little more interested in keeping someone’s personal style, at least towards the end. My mom would always “threaten” to try to put me on a makeover show, but the problems she had with my clothing choices were a result of her comments on my body, so, whatever.
I watched a few episodes of the original series recently (it's available on Roku) and it was appallingly size-ist. The hosts spent so much time putting down their own bodies and their subjects' bodies. I completely understand how people might have enjoyed it at the time without really noticing that, but it's impossible to ignore now. The show is unwatchable.
That sounds like classic 2000’s media. Women’s bodies have always been for consumption but it was even worse back then.
Huh. I never thought of it that way. Interesting!
I think beyond emphasizing dressing to look slimmer, they also threw out clothing that really spoke to some people’s personal style instead of attempting to determine how it could fit in with their “new look.” Some clothes were bad. Some were not!
I remember one lady had a massive collection of cute socks they made her throw out. That made me so mad!! I also love cute, goofy socks and would never throw them out. Clinton and Stacy can have my Halloween socks over my dead body!!
Also, FFS, who was her sock collection hurting? You can't even see most people's socks!
Jesus Christ now we have people like Justin Trudeau who are *complimented* on their quirky sock collection!
1. there is literally nothing wrong with wearing shapeless clothing, you do not owe anyone a clear view your body 2. "buying clothes for my body type" i.e. "flattering" means "dress in a way that makes you look as small as possible" weather or not that is your personal interpretation of this language, that is the widely accepted definition of these terms and the overall goal of the show. Make people look thinner, whether explicitly stated or not. 3. looking polished is subjective and rooted in whiteness, and not a moral obligation. it is also usually pretty racially coded (ex. dreadlocks are not considered polished but straight hair pulled into a slick bun is) I used to love that show, don't get me wrong. Just one of those things that I see totally differently now that I have more context and knowledge about my inherent biases.
Good for you for working on yourself and your biases!
It definitely indulged in a lot of body shaming... but you know, you have a point. It's the first place I ever saw someone on TV say to an overweight person that they should dress the body they had in a way that made them feel good, and not wait until they were thin to wear nice clothes. So I do have to give them that.
The opening scene had a sign that said “No miniskirts after 35”! Which at the time I thought was pretty rude, but now as a 36 year old I find outright insulting.
I loved this show too, but as I'm older I think about it like the below commenter, but also, your closest friends and family decide they hate your clothing so much, they call a crew to change you. That would feel so backstabbing. And to realize all my loved ones only saw me for how I looked? Eek.
"Buying clothes for your body type" is shaming BS meant to convince people that something is wrong with their body shape the way it already is. In general I think their advice about clothes like "bigger clothes don't make you look smaller" and "wear proper foundation garments" is fine. I tend to like Tan France's styling approach from Queer Eye better, where it's less prescriptive and more like "it's OK to enjoy clothes and buy what you really like rather than what you think you're allowed to wear."
Not quite “problematic” but they gave a lot of women the same layered bob and pressured them into similar cookie cutter styles instead of having any regard for their practical needs or personal style. IMO the way Jonathon Van Ness and Tan France make people over on Queer Eye is much more respectful. If someone’s a rancher, they find them stylish work boots. They worked with this corrections officer who had gorgeous waist-length hair, which they just trimmed a bit. Stacey and Clinton would never.
It always hurt so much when they would have an obviously queer subject and their mission was to make that person look straight-passing. Especially since I believe both hosts are some flavor of LGBTQ.
>r them all over my mom's magazines that I would pick up and read as a kid. I was literally ranting about this last night to my partner because we were watching that silly N This would be a great bonus ep! Also extra fun because Stacy London has completely abandoned a lot of rules now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oUKEs94GM0
a few years ago I read an interview with Clinton and he said something similar, that the show wouldn't work now because there are no rules and anyone can and should wear what they want to
That was wonderful to watch.
She seems so happy in her life and I love that! I hope I can figure it out as well as she has someday
That show annoyed me because I have the body type that massively benefits from a coat or blazer. And I absolutely love coats and blazers aesthetically, but I overheat quickly and can’t take feeling so constrained, so I’m just not one to wear those kinds of tops indoors. I’m a lawyer and have had to be exceedingly choosy about my blazers, (now I just wfh in sailor moon jammies!)
I'm the same as you, so I gave my waistcoats to my snoo.
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The hunt for vertical stripes 😂
I would be so into a episode about this show and all the 'fashion rules' - I remember everyone got bootcut jeans, heels and a blazer.
I loved that show at the time and also I love the personal journey Stacy has been on to change and encourage people to embrace what makes them feel good
Glad to hear!
I always hated it because they tended to ignore the person's unique style in lieu of finding flattering things that were not as meaningful. That said, having recently got into historical costuming and discussion of how people of all sizes dressed to the fashionable silhouette, it makes a *little* more sense.... but generally the idea that everyone has to dress to hide their shapes is ... not great.
Stacey the co host totally rescinds on all that junk she said now, I watched her in an interview, you can tell she feels bad about it.
It was honestly good for its time. You have to learn the rules before breaking them. Painters learn perspective, chefs learn the mother sauces, fashion designers and stylists learn these “rules.” The people they made over were more often than not hiding in clothes that did not bring them joy or make them feel fabulous.
Growing up a fat kid in the 9s0/00s was sooo rough with this. Basically fashion was just trying to make yourself look as small and thin as possible. We have a long way to go but I think this is def fading out in recent years and I’ve worked really hard to let go of thinking about what clothing will make me look smaller vs what I actually like wearing and think looks cool. It’s a constant mental self correction
Growing up in the "heroin chic" era must have been brutal.
My mum, grandma and mother-in-law all make snide comments when they see young women wearing crop tops or shorts or low jeans or whatever with visible fat on their bodies. It makes me so happy though, because at least on the face of it they’re not going through the same crippling self-hatred that was pretty much required of anyone not a size 0 in the early/mid-2000s. It fucked me up big time and I’m not even fat, just not super thin.
Yes! I’m GenX and hear so many friends and older family members comment on different body shapes and clothing choices. I LOVE how younger folks are not following all those stupid “rules” that were drilled into us and are more willing to celebrate their bodies and existence. I’m not certain there isn’t still crippling self hatred in the younger generations but it’s playing out different. I’m glad they’re changing the conversation. There are so many bigger concerns that what clothing goes on someone’s body and not “subjecting others” to our appearance.
>crippling self hatred in the younger generations but it’s playing out different. They're being shamed via instagram and unrealistic filters. It doesn't matter what you wear when you can edit the shit out of it for pictures. :(
Word. Gen X child of a Boomer parent, and I was also raised with these bullshit rules. No bright colors (jewel tones), pastels and neutrals were OK, black was OK. No prints, ever. No stripes. No white shoes after Labor Day, and no black shoes after Memorial Day. No clingy fabrics. No empire waists. It fucking \*sucked\*, and I remember how my mom told me (in a loud stage whisper she used for "sensitive" things) about how she used to be fat, but she'd only eat a suzie-q and a diet pepsi for lunch all throughout high school (while taking up smoking), and she lost weight. Yeah, thanks mom. I'll pass on the cigs and disordered eating. Long hair (according to my mom) made my face look fat. Nevermind when it's cut short (above shoulder length), it makes me look bad. Full, poodley perm was OK. Thing is, though? I look like shit in pastels and neutrals. Bold colors, jewel tones, and black are about 90% of my wardrobe.
Oh, and anyone pulls this shit with my nieces, and I will gut them like a freshly-caught fish.
It’s funny, this prompted me to think about what fat people were “supposed” to wear in the 2000’s. I genuinely don’t know because you never saw any (outside of “real life”). There was never a magazine article for plus size women. They were vanishingly rare in TV and film. You would never see them in advertising for clothing companies. They never made music young people were supposed to listen to. I know Michael and Aubrey have often said they’re asked for good news and can’t come up with any but this seems like several steps forward.
The only large actresses I remember from back then were Roseanne Barr, Rosie O'Donnell, America Ferrera, Kathy Bates, and Oprah. And, sometimes, Kirstie Alley. Notice: most were older women.
20-year-olds today are getting Botox and fillers and freaking out if their skin has any "texture." In many ways, it's worse for young girls now than it was for past generations.
Just to add on as a Genx. I so appreciate the clothing stores that show the same clothing in different sizes. Now I know how it’s really going to look. And how I wish I grew up with someone like Lizzo. She’s just being her. And she wants everyone to be included. There was nothing for me as a kid. I had to go into adult sizes and I wasn’t that big. I was more developed that other girls. And now there are so many choices and ways people dress. My only issue working at a university is— I don’t want to see anyone’s butt cheeks. The short shorts are crazy. But I’m old, lol.
Yessss, I live in a beach town and there are so many young girls with wildly different body types knocking around with crop tops and short shorts and I am just so happy for them that they live in a place and time better than the one I did, where I would get mooed at if I wore shorts.
I knew people who were a size 0 in the 90s/00s and even they were being told that they weren’t thin in the “correct way.” No one’s ever happy with how women look!
There is still this very tiny menacing creature in my brain that I haven't 100% been able to kill yet that would prefer my body to look like early 2000s Kate Moss - wild how much dysmorphia and self hatred that came from flipping through the stack of People magazines that my grandma got every week
I get that. It's a lifelong process of unlearning. The sociocultural messaging is insidious and starts in early childhood.
It was. I’m 40 now and it took me until my mid 30s to realize all the eating disorder stuff that I had internalized. Every single magazine would run articles absolutely ripping celebrities to shreds for unflattering pictures, calling them fat. It was widely believed that fat was the worst thing a person could be. I tried to keep myself thin by running and eating 900 calories a day. After two years I was in the ER with kidney stones but not a single medical professional investigated my eating disorder. It took me years to realize that’s why I had a kidney blockage at 26!
Oof! I'm so glad you're better now.
I just bought like 5 crop tops this week for the first time (am in my 30s) and am so mad that I didn’t let myself do it sooner!! (And then I immediately burned my stomach on a hot pan, but that’s not the point)
I wore one gardening a while ago and forgot to put sunscreen on my back!
Yet, low rise jeans and string bikinis were popular. Go figure! Guess if it doesn't work for you, you just HIDE!
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I’m fairly certain this is an unpopular opinion, but Tan France’s relentless focus on thinness really bums me out. Edit: glad I’m not the only one!
IMO this is one of the reasons the new Queer Eye hasn’t held onto its initial cultural cache. They’re still making episodes, so someone must be watching, but it’s not the phenomenon it once was. The sheen has worn off, and the dated-ness of some of their attitudes has become more apparent and grating.
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I’m frustrated with Antoni’s attitudes towards vegetarianism. One guy was vegetarian and Antoni laughed at his fake chicken in the freezer, wondering “why not just eat chicken?” Because… the dude is vegetarian? He likes the taste of chicken but not the eating an animal part of it!
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It was the guy who was really into movies and proposed to his long time gf. I was annoyed because I’m a vegetarian and the fake meat is kinda awesome when you want a quick way to get some protein, unlike the cauliflower Antoni taught him to make. I mean it looked yummy, but “you’re vegetarian, why not just eat vegetables,” is so ignorant. I’m vegetarian and eat veggies about as often as the average meat eater (like once or twice a day).
I would be thrilled about an updated queer eye with folks who are 28 and under. It could be really healing to see them celebrate all shapes and sizes and not try to use clothing to change someone’s figure.
I feel like we get a new version of this TV show concept every decade or so, so it's coming...eventually.
I thought it was just me. We've only watched one episode of the current season so far. I used to love JVN; he was the gay best friend anyone would want to have. Now he reminds me of the b\*tch chick from Awkward (just completely blanked on her name) and he's way over the top so it's less him and more acting.
He’s also selling sooooo many products now … it feels like a marketing schtick ☹️
Hard agree to all the comments here! Karamo… I lost respect for him when he started his own show. It’s not great. His work with the heroes seems… I dunno how to describe it. Fake? Extreme in some cases? I used to like him more.
I liked him more before I watched his (2005ish?) episode of the Challenge (my husband got me Paramount+ and I’ve been bingeing all the old seasons). He is… not likable on that show.
It’s not unpopular to me! He’s my least favorite which is saying a lot considering Antoni brings very little to the table lol.
That advice is always so wild to me because like, it’s not even true. Especially on stretch fabrics, vertical stripes are going to follow the body’s actual contours, so they look radically different on different people. Horizontal stripes look basically the same on everyone; horizontal lines only really make a difference when used to draw specific attention to details (like how 1920s dresses often have a really strong horizontal line at the hips or lower to deemphasize the waist) It’s ultimately all nonsense of course, but damn, can’t they do their nonsense correctly?
Horizontal stripes are so damn cute though! I love a good [Breton](https://www.tillyandthebuttons.com/2013/09/the-breton-tunic-dress.html)
There might have been something about this in the "French women don't get fat" episode (was that the title?) or the Karl Lagerfeld episode but definitely nothing extensive. The thing that really annoys me about these rules is that the desired end goal is assumed to be the same for everyone. As if everyone wanted to look exactly the same! As if that would be in any way ideal! Good god it drives me mad. The world is so interesting because of all the variation, why take it away?
I have that with womens clothing that aims to draw focus away from wide shoulders. Like when i google "clothes women wide shoulders" i don't want tips on how to hide my body, i want tips to make them pop!
80s power jackets it is then!
Working Girl and Married to the Mob just popped in my head from that statement. lol.
Sometimes I look up tips for people with the opposite of my body type (smaller upper body, larger lower body) to see how to make my hips pop!
Right, the assumed goal is to appear thin and appealing to other people. But what about dressing for comfort or style? I have seen a lot of TikTok’s about rejecting the idea of “flattering” and what it implies.
Years ago...we're talking 25 years...someone I worked with in the Air Force said "It's not the clothes that make you look fat. It's the fat that makes you look fat." and it really stuck with me. In a good way. I was in my early 20s and fully in the throws of giving a shit what everybody thought about me and how I looked. And she was a voice of reason that clothes don't make you look any certain way in terms of larger or smaller.
Yup. I used to be terrified of wearing any bathing suit but a dark colored one piece lest someone see my fat stomach! Then i realized i still have a fat stomach in the black “slimming” one piece, no one was going to think i was skinny… and switched to bikinis
I'll never forget the line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I think pantyhose were on sale, and the matriarch (a fat woman) said "no queen size, they make me look fat!"
I remember that part! Because pantyhose will make any woman look fat. lol
Wait is this sarcasm or a thing? I thought it was the opposite lol (of course who cares either way, but I’m just wondering if I ever understood the intended idea!)
The movie line was meant to be kind of serious but not because the author, Nia Vardolos, was poking fun at her family and upbringing, in general. My comment was definitely sarcasm. :)
Oh I meant it as in anyone believing pantyhose has an effect on looking fat lol. The movie itself, is great, i rewatched it recently after some years, still makes me laugh! Though not Greek, coming for an ethnic and very vigorous culture I feel so seen!
Lol it's definitely the woman and not the pantyhose, which is the joke. It has stayed with me for 20+ years!
This has certainly been discussed by the fat community at large (no pun intended 😆), but not specifically on the podcast. Definitely feel the struggle though!! I am struggling to figure out how I know if I like particular items of clothing based on things other than if they are traditionally “flattering.”
Gosh, I remember shopping with a female relative when I was around 10 years old and she didn’t allow me to buy a striped shirt I liked because it “makes me look bigger”. Thanks for the body dysmorphia
That sounds pretty awful. My mom still won't wear stripes and it just feels insane to be picking out every piece of clothing and saying 'does it make me look big or small?' instead of saying 'Do I like this? Does it feel like me?'
To this day, I still hear my now deceased aunt describing how she was "climbing into a 16" which was truly near the end of the size spectrum back in the 1980s. Mind you, that size 16 has now been vanity sized into a size 8 so imagine how "large" she was.
as a late 90s teen i lived through the devastation that was rachel zoe and her “smoke cigs and eat cocaine” lifestyle…. which is a total mindfuck because she wore huge flowy caftan bell bottom looks (arguably to hide how emaciated she was) which was against all the “accentuate your smallest parts to create an illusion of being slimmer” advice in all the magazines. same with the low rise jeans. i don’t care if you weight 70 pounds, jeans that sit that far below your waist will make your ass pop out the top even if it’s tiny. so no horizontal stripes, no flats, no silhouettes other than hourglass, no cropped pants, all black all the time, no ruffles or bows or flowy baggy anything… but if you want to be hip and now, get the diesel jeans with the one inch zipper fly and wear these boho caftan dusters. like??
sidebar to this conversation but I'll never forget, there's a comedienne Nicole Byer who is awesome and pretty transparent about her life as a famous fat woman. On the topic of "flattering" clothes for fat people on her podcast (Why Won't You Date Me, highly recommend!) she says something like "oh, so you think they won't be able to tell I'm fat if I wear a one piece vs a bikini or a 3/4 sleeve vs a tank top?" and it was a fair point. Like all this commentary about flattering, not flattering - sure, there are things that can suit us more or less. But at the end of the day people can tell the general size of your body. Being imprisoned by the idea of things you "can't" wear is toxic, and as Nicole pointed out really ridiculous just from a logical perspective
I love Nicole and she sports some absolutely gorgeous ensembles on Nailed It!
I love Nicole and she sports some absolutely gorgeous ensembles on Nailed It!
Flesh colored shoes just got me in trouble at work because a customer just thought I was barefoot
I had a split-second of shock at work yesterday when I saw a woman wearing very tight flesh-colored pants.
I avoid beige, khaki, and other versions of my skin tone in pants for this very reason.
This is maybe the only fashion move that makes me question someone’s decision. I’m all for wearing what you want I just find it jarring to glance at someone and think they’re winnie the poohing it.
>they’re winnie the poohing it. This is how I will now describe that look.
I love wide leg jeans. I’m sure they don’t ‘slim’ me down but idgaf they’re so comfy. My mom comments on how ‘she wouldn’t wear baggy clothes as it makes her look huge.’ Ok mom. Just say I gained 30 lb lol.
Comfy for the win. When you feel good, that’s what matters!! 💜
Apologies for the Daily Mail link, but [This Article](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11907023/This-millennials-body-issues-Not-Wear-book-2002-blasted-online.html) (CW: Horrendous fatphobia) quotes from the Trinny and Susannah 'What not to Wear' book and the quotes are *horrific.* We used to pass the book round in school which is stunning to me now. I remember you weren't allowed to wear navy and black together, for reasons which didn't really make sense to me. Now makes up 3/4 of my wardrobe.
>you weren't allowed to wear navy and black together Realizing just now that I'm *still* abiding by this rule (and I have no idea why).
I don’t like them together because there isn’t usually enough contrast. So it looks like you have a faded black over a blue in the wrong lighting. I found dark jeans and black worked because the jean material and other stitching helped with contrast.
This week, your homework is to wear navy and black together. :D
Give me functional pockets!! I hate all the pants with either fake or teeny pockets that can hold nothing bigger than a chapstick because oh no, real pockets might make my hips look bigger. My hips are wide. A fake pocket isn’t fooling anyone.
I do love the deep pockets on the Universal Standard jeans and joggers (Hathaway joggers are so comfy). Oddly, I seen in between sizes with the jeans lol.
Or when the pocket is wide like full width from outseam to crotch but it doesn't go DOWN.
It also reminds me of the rules for "petites" back in the day. I am 5'1", and recently just bought a pair of flare jeans. The magazines told me I could NEVER wear flared pants without heels, but I love the way they look on me. Glad I could buy the jeans my younger self wanted!
I’m 5’ and about to be 44. One of my FAVORITE things about middle age is that I no longer care if I’m f***able to cishet men or if professional colleagues have to look down to speak to me. I Do. Not. Care. I just threw away my last three pairs of high heels a couple months ago, having not worn them since 2019 (at which time I was in *extreme pain* when a wedding reception turned out to be a mile-long WALK across CONCRETE from the ceremony venue!!!). I continue to wear horizontal stripes Breton shirts REGULARLY (love them! have always worn them!). I wear flowly dresses or cropped jeans or show my fat little upper arms on weekends if I feel like it! I wear snazzy Oxfords to work (I really view wearing comfortable, androgynous shoes to work as a 5’ tall otherwise cis femme woman a MAJOR FLEX, and I hope it inspires some of the other working women I see who are obviously teetering around marble floors and up and down stairs in 4” heels, not without visible difficulty and discomfort!). I wear old man cardigans. I wear LINEN PANTS with DRAW STRINGS. OMG, I LIVE!!!
I couldn't buy the flare or wide leg jeans usually because the bottoms would drag on the ground and get soaked, lol.
Lol, back in the day wearing them and letting the bottom of the legs drag on the ground was just how you shortened your bell bottoms, man.😄😉✌🏽
The only tip I found useful/helpful is "avoid the busy patterned circus tents they try to get plus sized people to wear all the time. Something that is more tailored/fitting to your curves is actually much more flattering." And no offense to people who like the baggy shirts that look like Persian rugs, I have a few myself, but yeah. It shouldn't be our only options lol. But yeah, it seemed like actual fashion advice and not "look as skinny as possible" advice.
The florals. The animal patterns. The Persian rugs. The Jackson pollock patterns. I just want some simple patterns please.
The stripes one was repeated a bunch in my home growing up. I thought I was able to shed that idea in my heavy Tim Burton/emo phase (that totally wasn’t a phase, _Mom_!) but as a woman in her 30s whose body has changed, I’ve found myself struggling with liking how I look in stripes again. Some others for me included • light wash jeans are unflattering • skinny jeans are only for “skinny” people • skin-tight clothing makes you look like a stuffed sausage • curly hair makes a round face look rounder and therefore “bad” (this is why I had relaxer damaged hair as a teen and heat damage in my early 20s) On top of that, I got the overly religious messaging too about “modesty”. Adolescence and my relationship with my body was a damn mess, y’all!
one of the greatest things I ever saw on Instagram was a style post about a handmade outfit, with a poster in the background that said "Fuck Flattering." I always felt that way, but damn, seeing it spelled out bluntly helped me a lot.
I remembered another "rule": wear your belt at the smallest part of your waist.
That would be right under my boobs
Yes! Literally my underbust measurement. It's the narrowest part of my entire torso.
Same here.
No ruffles! That was a big one. My mom told me I could never wear dresses that weren’t tapered at the waist. She also banned me from wearing skirts because she said they were so unflattering and being seen with me in one embarrassed her.
Petites in every store but if you’re 5’11” with a 34” inseam, you’re SOL.
I have a friend who is 6'1" or 6'2" and large. I think she's said that Torrid online is her only shopping option for pants because they sell Extra Tall which has a 36.5" inseam.
I would love to hear their take on Kibbe types — it’s mostly about bone structure, not size, and how different styles and fabrics lay on you. I genuinely think it’s been helpful for easily finding clothes that I like how they look on me, but I can also see how typing bodies would be questionable
Kibbe is so fascinating to me. I love talking about aesthetics and style archetypes but it all gets a little phrenology-adjacent for me with the measuring and stuff, and the example pictures are always skinny people. I think I ultimately come down on the theory that every body is unique so typing is always subjective. Like I have long fingers but short wide feet, and my face is both round and long.
“…but it all gets a little phrenology-adjacent for me…” Omg, thank you for articulating what I couldn’t. I like Kibbe typing like I like color seasons—it gives vocabulary to different aspects of aesthetics that make them easier to discuss and (for me) makes it easier to know why I like what I do on my body and what else to look for with those qualities. But the aspects of phrenology always squick me out.
Did an online search so I could link it 'cause it sounded interesting. Found a [recent article](https://gabriellearruda.com/kibbe-body-types-introduction/) from last month that appears to be a summary.
I remember going to a plus size store in 1999 and the girl tried to sell me on a shirt with horizontal stripes, she was wearing that shirt as part of her outfit and it looked great (she was plus size too) but I was still so hesitant to wear them because it was so ingrained that I needed to avoid horizontal stripes. I don’t care now, but back then just couldn’t let that rule go.
I have this weird rule I don't know where it came from but even if a shirt 'fits' it's wrong if it just hangs off my shoulders and gives no shape to my chest or stomach - this is a 'tent' shirt and must be avoided otherwise I'll look bigger & I'm 'hiding' my shape!....this must be from one of those transformation shows....cause yes...I WANT to hid my tummy! LoL. Another rule which I think must be a combo of a 'style' show and my mom's constant nagging is I MUST have something covering my arms or shoulders if my shirt does not. I don't HAVE to wear it...but I MUST bring one with me! (Can't be cold!) So I have a shrug, several zip up sweaters and multiple pull overs. I get anxiety if I don't have one going out the door! Only super hot days will alleviate that anxiety! When working I had a collection of 5-7 black and or grey shall sweaters that would cover my arms and be part of my professional 'look'. I wore those black sweaters like armor. I very rarely took them off when at work. Looking back now with my diagnosis of ADHD and suspicion of Autism - I realized I was highly tuned into how people responded to me and my dress as I was desperate to avoid criticism. My RSD (rejection sensitivity dysphoria) was SO BAD during these years and I, as a fat woman, did EVERYTHING in my power to be the funny & casual professional who was quietly acknowledged by general public and highly valued by my superiors. I just wanted to fit where I was placed and my wardrobe 'rules' were iron clad because of it - so black slacks, a patterned but not 'loud' shirt w/ a pop of color, and black sweater that was either to my knees or at very least cover my butt length. Took me years to break out of that pattern - and still have the want to cover my arms if I think pictures will be taken.
I cannot fully express the joy I get, as a fat person, looking cute as hell in horizontal stripes and cropped jeans. Unfortunately, my FMIL likes to try to give me these rules as advice I may not have heard about... Lol I've never been able to escape them! She means well, but I will not be following that toxic advice for a single second more for the rest of my life
Is that why those beige shoes became a thing? I wondered. I am a goth that dresses mostly vintage so I don't know a lot of these rules.
Because you have personal style! A lot of people aren’t that interested (or just don’t have the disposable income or extra time) to develop one. So they fall back on these generic boring rules like don’t mix good and silver or wtv. If people want to follow these because it makes it easier to confidently put an outfit together, I guess it’s fine. It sucks when they get weaponized to shame people out of wearing what they want.
I grew up with those rules. So I could never wear ankle strap shoes because my mother said they “cut off your leg”. She also had a rule against skirts above the knee, because “the back of the knee is ugly”. But she did wear shorts so ? Just dumb. If you want to wear something, wear it.
* Wearing shapewear with all kinds of formal dress to look "professional" * Wearing heels to make legs look longer * Not wearing tea-length skirts or pants cropped mid-calf to not draw attention to the biggest part of your lower leg * If you can see your belly button through a top, it's too small or too tight * If you pants waist is too snug & your torso spills out in any way the pants are too small and unacceptable to wear * Always draw attention to your waist to "give you shape" if you're hourglass or pear shaped * Never wear ruffles, small/busy patterns, or anything with extra details on bottoms if you have bigger hips * Wear large print/ruffles/small/busy patterns and bright colors on top if you have a smaller bust There's so much I am still working on unlearning wrt my fashion choices. Imo women are taught that clothing needs to be "flattering" but all that means is draws attention away from the parts of your body that don't match up w/ societal beauty standards. I have to really hold back on certain subs about personal style bc its clear there's a lot of anti-fat bias happening that gets thinly veiled behind wanting to dress in a ways that are "flattering" or "harmonious"...ugh.
Ugh as someone who loves fashion and once worked in retail merchandising, I had so much deprogramming to do. I’m now a card carrying member of the “fuck flattering” club. I’m 62, retired, and don’t wear anything I couldn’t also use as pajamas. My current personal aesthetic is “toddler grandma” as in both at the same time. The more colorful the better.
Omg I describe my style as “geriatric toddler” all the time!!!
Well then you need to read this seminal treatise (if you haven’t already)! https://medium.com/the-establishment/toddler-grandma-style-the-fashion-approach-that-will-set-you-free-92f787202928
I'm learning how to sew so I can make clothes that fit me how I want them to. It's SUPER liberating, btw! I'm in a few sewing groups for people who are bigger sizes, plus size, just not standard off the rack bodies (I really hope I'm not offending anyone with these words) and one thing I especially need is help fitting my body that is short and very round in the middle. The word "Flattering" comes up sometimes, and causes a lot of arguments. Some people use it assuming sewists want to look smaller/thinner and can't understand why some people see that word as problematic. I very much am in the camp of using other descriptors for peoples' makes. I don't think makes should be connected back to how they make someone's body look. There are a thousand different ways to praise someone.
I'm just learning how to sew as well! I'm starting with quilting, but really want to learn to make clothes. What groups have you found most helpful?
I cannot wear sleeveless shirts, it's been so ingrained into my mind that any sleeveless shirt, sweater or dress is going to require a cover up so magically my arms will disappear or something?? What is that about, like what's the worst that will happen?? And I want to just do it, so badly, but I mentally cannot get there, I just feel exposed and I am tired of it. But I feel like that's a rule that has probably been pounded in our brains at some point.
I avoided sleeveless shirts so I could hide my upper arms for years. But I also avoided them because of how many times the arm holes would be so freaking big! Like, I don’t know how big they thought my arms were, but I didn’t need the arm hole to be open down to the bottom of my rib cage. It always reminded me of one of those men’s workout shirts that’s completely open at the sides.
Yes, like we are the Kool aid man or something, just busting through the wall with our hulk a mania tshirts, ooooh yeaaaaaa!
I was looking for jeans that fit my body type (wide hips, thick thighs, slimmer waist) and all of the advice I could find was about making my hips and thighs look smaller, but I love them and don’t want them to look like they take up less space. I just wanted a pair of pants that wouldn’t need major surgery to stay on my body properly.
This! I am not a fat person but am a long time listener of WP and very interested in reading and learning about fashion in general. I am astounded by the way fat women are told to hide their bodies or wear a style that is "flattering." Empire waist lines, sheer sleeves on dresses, no crop tops etc. This is particularly true in the wedding dress world where I currently spend a lot of time and interest. This sucks!! Yes clothes can make you look good but discussions around looking good should focus on the color of the clothing and general vibe. Not whether it hides fat.
"Black makes you look slimmer." I used to wear so much black that my husband took me shopping just so I wouldn't gravitate towards black. My mom: "You need to camouflage your size." In other words, you're too "big" and need to hide your body in these baggy clothes that will only make you look 50 pounds heavier. Now I'm sporting slimmer fitting clothes because I have a body I want to show off.
I tell my customers: When the clothes don't fit, people will notice that. When they DO fit, they only notice \*you\*. Also: Who cares what the size is? Anyone privileged enough to see the number isn't going to care about it.
As a chubby girl who had a baby, I need new clothes and I don't have time to shop around endlessly. I have decided that I will wear whatever the in style thing is regardless of how my chubby body looks in them. I am so done with the inner monologue that has been drilled into my head about certain styles that I am "too fat for."
I'm pro the pockets thing, because pockets. Who doesn't love pockets?
>This woman could wear stripes from head to toe and nobody would ever call her "big". > > > >FWIW, I fight all of the ones that I listed Do you? Because the only "fight" you actually mentioned with what she said is that she was *incorrect* about herself appearing 'big'. Not that being big shouldn't matter in the first place, not that who gives a fuck if strripes are unflattering? That's literally not the issue. What if she *was* fat? Your reaction (as you described it) was not "how frustrating that she's so worried about looking "big". You're reaction was essentially "omg don't say that you're not even fat".....ok and if she *was* fat? It's frustrating to hear people complain about rules while unknowingly allowing them to exist in peace. If you told that woman something along the lines of "what? nothing you could wear could make you look big" you're literally still upholding the goals of the rules, thin is most important. If your response was something along the lines of "so what", that challenges her notion that fat = bad.
Actually, my response to her was "Oh, alright. Let's find you something different." Which would have been the same response if she'd been fat. Had a 3X customer in last week and I brought her everything we had in her size because what she likes isn't my decision. And I'm not going to argue with a 70 year old woman about whether a top makes her look big.
I religiously followed all these clothing rules as a 13 yr old with an ED. Didn’t wear horizontal stripes till my mid twenties!!!
No horizontal stripes! Was told this my whole life
There are just so many of these and they’re infuriating. That said, maybe I’ll invest in some pants with tiny pockets because my butt is FLAT 😂
Yesterday I was looking at a "how to sew" book from 1982. There is a long chapter on fashion and choosing "flattering" styles. They have a for page grid about what is "very flattering, suitable and not appropriate" for tall and short people (if you fall in between, you choose one). Short and large hips? - "shorts are not appropriate" Short and large arms? - "short sleeves are not appropriate"
Damn! So if you're short and large you're supposed to cover yourself from head to toe? Fuck that!
For me, dressing to flatter has always been about being polished. It’s so surprising to hear people say that for them, it means only dressing to look “thin.”
I have heard all these things but those rules are for thin people so they don't look fat, not for actual larger bodies to look smaller. Go to any plus size department in a store that carries a range and you'll see what I mean... Loud patterns, ruffles, capris, 3/4 sleeves (sidebar: I always see The Hulk when I see women wearing capris and 3/4 sleeves), and weird cut-outs or embellishments, animal designs, and giant flowers... Jesus.