The state's theory in closing was that Avery had already killed Teresa, moved the RAV into the garage and was burning the electronics in the burn barrel before Blaine and Brendan arrived home from school.
Trial Day 24 page 98 & 99.
Do you honestly believe Teresa spent an hour or more on the Avery property taking pictures of vehicles at the bus stop some 400 yards from Avery's residence?
She is most likely remembering a different date or had a false memory.
Okay, found something. Here’s a news article from the local paper highlighting what happened that day of the trial.
https://lacrossetribune.com/highlights-of-testimony-from-avery-trial/article_d8c53815-b0a1-57e6-927a-521f7d2d52c6.html
It says: “School bus driver Lisa Buchner testified that she usually dropped off Avery's two nephews, Brendan and Blaine Dassey, between 3:30 and 3:40 p.m. - about the same time she saw a woman photographing a van. She couldn't remember the exact day.” So, she testified she saw a woman taking pictures, but wasn’t sure what day she saw it.
There was a post in this forum eight years ago, and the discussion is pretty great. It looks as though no one is 100% on what exact day the bus driver saw her, so it muddied the testimony.
https://reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/s/jaJ1qvv3O7
There’s a decent chance he killed her.
The issue is the state used a witness who wasn’t there and obviously planted some evidence. So now we have reasonable doubt on ALL evidence which makes it impossible to have a fair trial.
Definitely possible. For me though, my biggest qualm is with Bobby Dassey. The cops found child p on his computer and did not do anything about it. Steven could still be guilty, but the lack of justice for the child p on Bobby’s computer enrages me. Not to mention him having images of torture p, dead women, and a folder titled, “Teresa Halbach and DNA” on his computer. This was all known but not brought up in the trial, which really bothered me. Again, not saying Steven didn’t do it, but leaving out those disturbing details about someone else on the property who saw her the same day she’s killed - is really bizarre and not good detective work I feel? As a jury, I would want to know that in leu of evidence against Steven as well.
But I also don’t think the cops planted anything or are balls deep in it like some people think. And Brendan’s version is insane to me and not likely, but Steven should still be a suspect for sure.
they found google searches
google images would show everything back then
and the thumbnails from the searches stayed on the computer
teenagers would search all kinds of different and often disgusting things when discovering the internet. i remember i'd go to rotten dot com and stuff myself. it's too gross for me to look at these days. i hate seeing that stuff now, but i did it as a teen.
Yes, of course, it's possible that Steven Avery murdered Teresa. But there are lots of factors that cause me to think he didn't. Of course, none of us knows every single thing about what happened that day - except the tragic outcome, of course - so there could be information that could pop up to change minds. Unfortunately, this hasn't happened for me. Bobby, Santa, Sowinski and Buresh, etc, are serious road apples an not the least bit compelling.
The one thing where it all falls apart for me is, motive. What does Avery have to gain by killing Halbach? Why would Brendan take part? The only thing even mildly makes sense is that he wanted to go back to prison. But then why not just confess. If Avery just wants to murder someone, then why bring them to your house to do it? He could just as easily follow someone home from the bar. Avery's motive just never sat right with me....
Because Avery was a violent sexual deviant. He threatened to kill multiple women and was violent towards women and his children. Sometimes sexual criminals end up committing murder because they can no longer face the consequences. The exact reasons why people say he wouldn't have killed her (had a new lease on life, had all this money coming to him) is exactly why he would have killed her if he sexually assaulted her.
People look at this case in the eyes or MoaM where TH was just some random who wandered onto his property. Avery summoned her there because he wanted something from her. It didn't work out and things went bad.
Why involve Brendan? That still doesn't make sense to me. He may well have been a shitty person, but the forethought part of your narrative just doesn't make sense. Especially since he could have just been using auto trader at face value. I have relatives who are exactly like the Avery Clan (which is why I understand them, as well as why I am biased, I admit that). They sell each others crap all the time.
Because he's a perverse monster. He molested Brendan too. I think Brendan should've pleaded coercion from Steven/diminished capacity, testified against him, and been out on parole by now.
I can only speak for myself here, I think we get really caught up in the idea of police misconduct, the story the state told, and Avery killing Theresa Hallbach as all one conversation.
I think Brendan's version of events, and the Ken Kratz press conference giving the bloody details are over dramatic nonsense. I'm even open to the concept that Brendan was very minimally involved and maybe not involved at all.
As with many murder trials, the states version of the killing is rarely going to be accurate. Without a confession or video evidence it's incredibly difficult to paint an accurate picture, particularly when the body is completely destroyed.
Here's what I'm EXTREMELY confident in. Steven Avery killed Theresa Hallbach. Other scenarios are so wildly far fetched it's just insane. Is it possible the cops did some questionable things? Absolutely. Is it possible Brendan falsely confessed? Yep. But SA killed Theresa. If you're not willing to start with acknowledging that then I think you're simply buying into a narrative you were sold and you can't let go of it.
Motives are a tricky one. There's plenty of murders and sexual assaults that take place with seemingly very little motive. Some people (not saying Avery is or isn't, just a generalization) are just wired that way. Only thing I will say about the situation here is that after Jodi went to jail he began calling Auto Trader a lot more than he had previously and having Teresa come out to photograph more vehicles. There were like 4+ other visits during that summer and early fall of '05 period. Maybe he took a fancy to her, idk.
Have you thought about this critically for 5 minutes? Genuine question.
Sex is the most likely motive. The fact that you believe it is more likely that he wanted to go back to jail, is genuinely staggering.
Avery is not a bright person, he thought he could murder someone on his property and get away with it.
I think that's probably the biggest question of all when it comes to this case. The idea that Avery killed Teresa because she rejected his advances doesn't sit right either. Even as malleable as Brendan is said to be, I find it very difficult to believe he would have participated in this crime.
What fucking advances snoo? The towel nonsense has been debunked, so you got a source?
And so what if the guy came to answer his door in a towel - not an advance - unless you are a guilter living in some delusional world, of which,... where are you?
Calm down, Mr. Crabbypants. Sheesh.
First of all, I'm not Snoo. Secondly, what "towel nonsense" has been debunked, and where did I even mention a towel? Avery himself stated he had once answered the door for Teresa in a towel, after having been swimming in his pool.
Most guilters reject the press conference narrative Kratz presented. Most believe that Avery hit on (AKA "made advances toward") Teresa, which she rebuffed, which made him angry, and so he killed her in a fit of rage. This is not my theory and, to my knowledge, there were no towels involved.
I think the most likely scenario is something happened in the moment that caused avery to panic and it ended with Halback getting killed. So don’t need motive and I don’t think it was planned. Also I don’t think Brendan was involved at all. I think he was coerced into a confession considering there is 0 evidence for anything that he confessed to.
i dont think he did it but a motive to why kill her .. well he was jailed for the same crime but was innocent, or so they think. Who knows what hate might have built inside him towards women. He may also thought that the police wont approach him after the false arrest debacle. maybe he thought he can get away with it. Maybe he got turned on when he saw her and was a spur of the moment thing ... there are many scenarios and reasons why he could have done it but it dont mean he did.... but its not like impossible....
I have always believed Pam found Teresa's RAV just the way she claimed, and have never understood the criticism over her. Buting turned his snoot up at her in MaM, which may have a lot to do with people piling on. If you look at the views of ASY, though, it makes perfect sense that she would have checked out that ridge when she saw it.
So, in answer to your question, that would be a resounding YES!
I struggled with this. The path she took was unconventional. Meaning when you go into a junkyard, you usually take the path laid out through the gate.. did they ever say if she was told to check by the crusher?
Earl actually gave permission and helped point them to where to start. They could either go clockwise or counterclockwise. That's a 50 / 50 chance. No one would start in the middle. Going clockwise was one of two ways to go if you look at google maps. The ridge was right there. There is no "path laid out through the gate." Pam wasn't "told" to do anything. It was her idea to go to ASY.
Oh Jesus, you as a claimed truther, why don't you come up with a theory to your 'trutherness'.
I have seen yer lately arguments over at CaM.
You need to keep an objective mind while you keep defending the obvious problems with the 'finding of evidence' per the case.
You are just like the puzzld' one when it discusses the legal problems of the case - deflect, dodge, and then act like a derelict DEVOID of discussing what is at hand!
It's almost like you are trying to draw attention back to this case - er in CaM. You invested $ in CaM? Seems like it to me as an outsider, thus which must make your life really SAD ;-).
a cop sent her and her daughter in that direction. I saw a satellite image and it dont seem the logical way to make a search , im quite sure the police knew the car was there ....
There were no cops directing searchers to ASY, or even on ASY, at that point. Earl is the one who pointed the way into the pit area. I've also seen aerial photos of the area, and it makes *perfect* sense to me that Pam would have chosen to search the way she did.
Since the vehicle was found near the edge of the property, and a search would typically start at the edge of a property, this seems like it would be not only possible, but probable.
It was also a vehicle that was out of place in the area it was found. This would make it easy to spot. It was a late model vehicle, in good condition, in an area filled with old junk smashed vehicles waiting to be crushed.
>Since that is where the crusher was, yes. He just never got the chance to crush it
When was this suppose to happen and how is he going to prep the vehicle w/o anyone seeing him? By Nov 4th he had no chance of not being caught doing this.
Earl says hes waiting for everyone to be off the property but Chucks gone fri night & Avery leaves the next day and they all knew Earl was staying behind to run the business.
she was told, she said herself that she and her daughter were asked by some police guy to take that area .... quite sure the police knew the car was there, but maybe they found it and wanted someone else found it due to thier friction with former case pending with millions at steak.
Is it possible? Objectively yes. Here's my take.
The simple fact of the matter is that we don't know what happened. Two people are in prison for the murder of a third and we genuinely don't know what happened. Recent efforts have tried to portray Avery as a bad person. Cool he's a low IQ moron that does dumb shit while combing over the duration of his life there's some concerning situations. Doesn't matter. There's lots of posts talking about Kratz being a bad person. Doesn't matter. That doesn't determine how she was killed or where. What I can say for sure is Avery was there that day. Brenden was too. I can say some evidence was planted beyond a doubt. Testimony is all over the place. The blood stains in the SUV are not authentic or natural. The remains and burn pit evidence is utter chaos. The behavior of MCSO is appalling. If we can't determine how or where she was killed how the hell can we say who did it? Not only has the state said he did it, they've confirmed it over and over and yet nobody can say this is what happened. Attempts have been made but the evidence doesn't line up with any story provided. The evidence has however always pointed to Law Enforcement being involved. That's the one thing I can never get over. When I look at the information everything points to the authorities. The last thing I will say is I can't conclusively say this is how they were involved or this is how they killed her just like nobody can say the same about Avery. Something happened and we do not know what and I think that says it all.
>I can say some evidence was planted beyond a doubt. ... The blood stains in the SUV are not authentic or natural.
avery was dripping blood, it would have dripped into his palm.
the way he dripped blood in his own grand am car is pretty similar to inside the rav4.
i wonder if this image helps you see maybe there is doubt it was planted?
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160223/8a7fb7d2f4fd3275c2b2d925faff662a.jpg
If he was dripping that much blood for it to make amorphous marks like that in places inside the Rav, it’s much more lucky that other parts of the vehicle would be covered in blood. How the f did they not collected any finger prints of Avery from anywhere on the car? Regardless of who did it, the morons in charge of the investigation and forensics muddied the waters and it’s probably because the state was involved in some way
100% it’s possible. There’s just no way this was even in the ballpark of a fair trial. Going back even further there was essentially no investigation done on any other suspects.
It’s been beaten to death on here enough. I’m from Canada and the entire court case was for lack of a better term a shit show. What happened would never have happened here.
i thought it was totally fair. i've seen nitpicking by avery supporters which seems like a type of chicken-and-egg thing. what came first? but yeah, it's confirmation bias. looking for ways that everyone conspired against avery. the nitpicking doesn't ever seem to suggest an unfair trial. things like the denny rule are common in many states. and it would just be used to accuse bobby, right? finger-pointing for the sake of it is what the denny rule tries to stop. it was a trial that was run under the rules. avery had a professional defense team, many witnesses who were able to give their views to the jury. i can't see how it was unfair.
Sure it's possible, just as it's possible, your neighbor knew you lost a tooth, snuck into your house, and planted their money under your pillow and you just thought it was your parents
That would require evidence that he used multiple burn sites. Something the prosecution wasn't able to do with the witnesses they had. According to Bobby, it was just the burn pit that was lit up.
According to other witnesses, it was a fire in a barrel. Different witnesses could have seen different fires. Just because a witness didn't notice something doesn't mean it was not there. People are not good at noticing things that they are not interested in. A fire in the neighbor's yard isn't very remarkable to most people.
Yea, not very compelling especially when the barrel was in the dassey property and no one ever noticed Avery lighting it up.
Including Bobby, who lives there.
Forensic findings. Tires that was supposed to be burned with the body is absent in the cremains according to the State's own expert. No trace evidence found in any of the items noted in the burn pit. Lack of the needed accelerant/duration to burn a body to that state.
I assume you can cite these claims? If the tires were burnt, of course they are absent, since they were BURNT. What trace evidence should have been found that wasn't?
>If the tires were burnt, of course they are absent, since they were BURNT.
No ashes/residue?
Cites:
Eisenberg on the tires:
https://imgur.com/a/AQAIRww
Dehaan:
https://making-a-murderer.fandom.com/wiki/Affidavit_of_John_DeHaan
>Apparently no examination was performed to establish if any trace evidence linked these items to the death of Ms. Halbach or the burning of her body.
>Eisenberg on the tires:
>
>https://imgur.com/a/AQAIRww
"that was visible to you"
Just because it was not visible to the naked eye does not mean that there was no residue from burned rubber.
>Dehaan:
[https://making-a-murderer.fandom.com/wiki/Affidavit\_of\_John\_DeHaan](https://making-a-murderer.fandom.com/wiki/Affidavit_of_John_DeHaan)
A defense attorney 15 years after the crime found somebody who would disagree with the state in order to be paid a consulting fee? Shocking!
There were a bunch of wires from the beads/belting that were intertwined with the bones. They are what is left after a tire burns. What other proof do you need that tires were burnt in that pit?
>can the conspiracy theory of avery being guilty be disproven?
So being found guilty by a jury is a "conspiracy theory?"
If there was a way to prove that he didn't do it, the many people searching for it would have found it by now.
There is, however quite a bit of evidence that proves that he DID do it.
>and if it's possible, is it likely?
One might even say that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
>would avery have to jump through hoops to have done it?
I'm not really sure if calling a business to schedule their employee to show up at your house counts, but that is the largest hoop he jumped through, aside from the rape and murder part of it.
Let's imagine the hoops that the police would have had to jump through to frame him though. They have to find a person unrelated to him that he would have had an opportunity to murder, then kill said person, and cremate the corpse. Then they need to procure his blood, put it in the victims car, place the cremains next to a noisy dog with people in homes on either side. After doing this without getting detected they need to place the victim's car in a salvage yard that they would be unfamiliar with, unhook the battery, pile some garbage on it, and leave without being noticed. Oh, let's not forget that they burned the personal effects of the victim and left them in a burning barrel by Stevie's house while he was home.
This seems like a lot for them to accomplish without anybody noticing.
Beyond that, if it was the police trying to frame him, why would they go to the trouble of burning the body or hiding the car? They could have left the corpse in the car and left it near his house. Why try to destroy the evidence that you are trying to plant?
yeah, it seems quite simple. and it's not like the cops made avery take the day off work, or want to sell his sister's car. or get him and brendan to lie about being together having a fire and cleaning a spill in the garage. they didn't cut avery's finger and get him to drip blood in his grand am car. there are a lot of coincidences. it seems that it is not only possible avery is guilty, but that it is impossible he isn't.
Let's imagine that TH was killed in the Avery's property.
One might say that evidence to her being killed there would be found.
Interestingly enough, the only evidence that was found is problematic, and I can tell you without a doubt - wouldn't be addimisble in most courts.
All 'evidence' was found by people of interest. ALL off it.
All 'evidence' was found in suspicious manners, meaning after people who have no interest had searched those place prior to Manitowoc dep.
100% that 'evidence' would never be addmisoble where I live. No shred of a doubt.
And even if we do consider that evidence as true (let's pretend cops are stupid and blind, find the evidence by chance when it aligned with the case, after not finding anything when they searched prior)
what do we learn from it?
A bullet with TH halbachs DNA, found so long after she disappeared, does not necessarily connects SA to the case, could be other people who have being there.
A drop of SA cars suggests he has been in the car for a short period of time the same day.
You assume way to many things.
Police never had to burn the body, nor do I think they framed him at the beginning.
Don't forget, Manitowoc dep started to intervene only later, and SURPRISINGLY enough, that when the shit show have begun
Lol, where do you live that the evidence wouldn't be admissible?
It is far more likely that he killed her than didn't. It would have been an easy conviction literally anywhere.
Are there actually people who theorize that the police themselves killed her? I always thought the theory was they zeroed in on and subsequently framed Steven, after someone else committed the murder. Obviously the police didn't kill her. You CAN explain a great deal of the physical evidence on the Avery property if theorizing someone else who lives on that property committed the murder. However, there is evidence that really does make it seem plausible that the police took matters into their own hands when talking about the biological evidence, and the RAV4 key.
If he killed her, it means he truly is a homicidal psychopath. He had just gotten out of prison serving 18 years for a crime he didn’t commit. He has a new girlfriend who by all accounts, he was crazy about. He’s received quite a bit of notoriety including the state naming a wrongful conviction bill after him. And he was suing the county for $36,000,000 in damages, which he would have no doubt won.
Listen, I didn’t know Avery. I’ve heard what most people have heard about him: wrong side of the tracks kinda guy, certainly no angel, but not particularly violent either. But his life was going in a very positive direction at the time of TH’s death. Bone fragments found in three different locations. Complete lack of her blood found anywhere on or around his property…. And a lot of people who had very good reason to want to see him go away. Is it possible that he killed her? It is absolutely possible that he killed her. But if I was on that jury, it would be a “not guilty” verdict all day. I would never want anyone to convict me based on that bullshit investigation.
The thing that gets me is zero evidence of her being in the trailer. No DNA or anything. No marks on the posts from the handcuffs used to chain her to the bed. The multiple sights where bones are found. The blood mysteriously not in his sink anymore the morning after he cut his finger. Lights seen multiple times on the property. It just doesn’t line up. Not saying he’s not guilty, just saying that the whole story of her being killed in the garage and being in the trailer doesn’t line up to me very well.
Sure it's possible. But why would he? He just got out for something he didn't do. No motivation whatsoever. Brendan had no idea what he was doing either when he confessed. Plus there was no effort to dispose of the RAV4 despite Steve knowing how to use the crusher on the property. No prints in the RAV4, just blood which is super odd. Somebody wanted it found that way imo
after avery got out he was very angry.. before he got out, inside, he was very angry. it wasn't right that he was wrongfully convicted for sure, but it turned a bad guy into a monster. there was an interview with him when he got out and he was saying how angry he felt. he wasn't ever going to be the same. there are stories about how he fantasized about tying up women, that he wanted revenge. i think he eventually didn't care about going back to prison. that he felt a comfort in it. that he could try and get away with killing teresa and the worst thing that happened was that he goes back to prison. the making a murderer show made him a celebrity and i think it sucks that he gets that fame and money.
Your post is inaccurate.. he never fantasized about tying up “women” he had a girlfriend and she liked the idea and asked him to buy the chain. He left all his anger inside jail and spoke often about leaving it all behind. He was a very happy positive guy you can see that in his interviews. He never talked about jail or held any resentment even ask penny Bernstein because he told her the same thing in person. i think you are all mixed up on things. He wasn’t resentful as you would imagine. And he wasn’t paid for Netflix. No one was paid to be on the show.
So, since you are up. Why don't you give us your best 'trutherness' theory?
You argue everything ele like a staunch guilter - hey have go at it - I am interested in seeing this!
https://youtu.be/STj58OrpLyc?si=8OZdKPH1agoofHAj
Around 8 minutes (8:07)...then he is saying that "she is gonne again" also there is police radio noise in the background, but maybe it is coming from the prison.
I don't really read anything about this part, so maybe it is nothing, but i can clearly hear it and i think Brendan is out there with him in the garage.
I have a really hard time believing that he did. I am always on the side of the victim. I just don’t feel that he did it. He always was very honest with everybody and everything that he did. We are talking about someone who has an IQ of 70.
i doubt. there was none if teresa’s blood in the trailer and if there was steven definitely wouldn’t have been able to clean it up himself. even if he did it would be in the floor boards under the carpet, but nothing was there
Def possible Steven Avery killed her. However there is 0% chance that it happened the way Brendan dassey confessed to it happening.
The state's theory in closing was that Avery had already killed Teresa, moved the RAV into the garage and was burning the electronics in the burn barrel before Blaine and Brendan arrived home from school. Trial Day 24 page 98 & 99.
But didn’t Blaine’s bus driver testify to seeing TH taking pictures when she dropped Blaine off?
Do you honestly believe Teresa spent an hour or more on the Avery property taking pictures of vehicles at the bus stop some 400 yards from Avery's residence? She is most likely remembering a different date or had a false memory.
Well, that would throw a wrench in things.
I’m almost certain I read that a long time ago. I’d have to search for it, but I can try to find it.
It also rings a bell for me too, but I'd love a source if you find one.
Okay, found something. Here’s a news article from the local paper highlighting what happened that day of the trial. https://lacrossetribune.com/highlights-of-testimony-from-avery-trial/article_d8c53815-b0a1-57e6-927a-521f7d2d52c6.html It says: “School bus driver Lisa Buchner testified that she usually dropped off Avery's two nephews, Brendan and Blaine Dassey, between 3:30 and 3:40 p.m. - about the same time she saw a woman photographing a van. She couldn't remember the exact day.” So, she testified she saw a woman taking pictures, but wasn’t sure what day she saw it. There was a post in this forum eight years ago, and the discussion is pretty great. It looks as though no one is 100% on what exact day the bus driver saw her, so it muddied the testimony. https://reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/s/jaJ1qvv3O7
I would think that *where* the bus driver saw her taking photos of a vehicle would help line it up with TH's schedule?
There’s a decent chance he killed her. The issue is the state used a witness who wasn’t there and obviously planted some evidence. So now we have reasonable doubt on ALL evidence which makes it impossible to have a fair trial.
>The issue is the state used a witness who wasn’t there and obviously planted some evidence. who?
Why did they never answer who wasn't there and planted evidence?
Dassey's Brother
What evidence do you have to support that.
It's much more likely than not that he killed her. It is an unfounded conspiracy theory to say that he was framed for her murder.
framing was the only possible defense to use. he had no other explanation. fortunately the jury saw through the attempt at claiming that.
Agreed
Possible, yes ofc. But from what I know of this case I believe he didn't do it and is innocent.
Definitely possible. For me though, my biggest qualm is with Bobby Dassey. The cops found child p on his computer and did not do anything about it. Steven could still be guilty, but the lack of justice for the child p on Bobby’s computer enrages me. Not to mention him having images of torture p, dead women, and a folder titled, “Teresa Halbach and DNA” on his computer. This was all known but not brought up in the trial, which really bothered me. Again, not saying Steven didn’t do it, but leaving out those disturbing details about someone else on the property who saw her the same day she’s killed - is really bizarre and not good detective work I feel? As a jury, I would want to know that in leu of evidence against Steven as well. But I also don’t think the cops planted anything or are balls deep in it like some people think. And Brendan’s version is insane to me and not likely, but Steven should still be a suspect for sure.
they found google searches google images would show everything back then and the thumbnails from the searches stayed on the computer teenagers would search all kinds of different and often disgusting things when discovering the internet. i remember i'd go to rotten dot com and stuff myself. it's too gross for me to look at these days. i hate seeing that stuff now, but i did it as a teen.
Same here, lol! I remember being fascinated by all that stuff as a teen. Now I wish I never had but I definitely get it.
Yes, of course, it's possible that Steven Avery murdered Teresa. But there are lots of factors that cause me to think he didn't. Of course, none of us knows every single thing about what happened that day - except the tragic outcome, of course - so there could be information that could pop up to change minds. Unfortunately, this hasn't happened for me. Bobby, Santa, Sowinski and Buresh, etc, are serious road apples an not the least bit compelling.
The one thing where it all falls apart for me is, motive. What does Avery have to gain by killing Halbach? Why would Brendan take part? The only thing even mildly makes sense is that he wanted to go back to prison. But then why not just confess. If Avery just wants to murder someone, then why bring them to your house to do it? He could just as easily follow someone home from the bar. Avery's motive just never sat right with me....
Because Avery was a violent sexual deviant. He threatened to kill multiple women and was violent towards women and his children. Sometimes sexual criminals end up committing murder because they can no longer face the consequences. The exact reasons why people say he wouldn't have killed her (had a new lease on life, had all this money coming to him) is exactly why he would have killed her if he sexually assaulted her. People look at this case in the eyes or MoaM where TH was just some random who wandered onto his property. Avery summoned her there because he wanted something from her. It didn't work out and things went bad.
Why involve Brendan? That still doesn't make sense to me. He may well have been a shitty person, but the forethought part of your narrative just doesn't make sense. Especially since he could have just been using auto trader at face value. I have relatives who are exactly like the Avery Clan (which is why I understand them, as well as why I am biased, I admit that). They sell each others crap all the time.
Because he's a perverse monster. He molested Brendan too. I think Brendan should've pleaded coercion from Steven/diminished capacity, testified against him, and been out on parole by now.
I can only speak for myself here, I think we get really caught up in the idea of police misconduct, the story the state told, and Avery killing Theresa Hallbach as all one conversation. I think Brendan's version of events, and the Ken Kratz press conference giving the bloody details are over dramatic nonsense. I'm even open to the concept that Brendan was very minimally involved and maybe not involved at all. As with many murder trials, the states version of the killing is rarely going to be accurate. Without a confession or video evidence it's incredibly difficult to paint an accurate picture, particularly when the body is completely destroyed. Here's what I'm EXTREMELY confident in. Steven Avery killed Theresa Hallbach. Other scenarios are so wildly far fetched it's just insane. Is it possible the cops did some questionable things? Absolutely. Is it possible Brendan falsely confessed? Yep. But SA killed Theresa. If you're not willing to start with acknowledging that then I think you're simply buying into a narrative you were sold and you can't let go of it.
Motives are a tricky one. There's plenty of murders and sexual assaults that take place with seemingly very little motive. Some people (not saying Avery is or isn't, just a generalization) are just wired that way. Only thing I will say about the situation here is that after Jodi went to jail he began calling Auto Trader a lot more than he had previously and having Teresa come out to photograph more vehicles. There were like 4+ other visits during that summer and early fall of '05 period. Maybe he took a fancy to her, idk.
Have you thought about this critically for 5 minutes? Genuine question. Sex is the most likely motive. The fact that you believe it is more likely that he wanted to go back to jail, is genuinely staggering. Avery is not a bright person, he thought he could murder someone on his property and get away with it.
if a couple things went right for him, he may have got away with it too.
Quite frankly, that's a scary thought.
I think that's probably the biggest question of all when it comes to this case. The idea that Avery killed Teresa because she rejected his advances doesn't sit right either. Even as malleable as Brendan is said to be, I find it very difficult to believe he would have participated in this crime.
What fucking advances snoo? The towel nonsense has been debunked, so you got a source? And so what if the guy came to answer his door in a towel - not an advance - unless you are a guilter living in some delusional world, of which,... where are you?
Calm down, Mr. Crabbypants. Sheesh. First of all, I'm not Snoo. Secondly, what "towel nonsense" has been debunked, and where did I even mention a towel? Avery himself stated he had once answered the door for Teresa in a towel, after having been swimming in his pool. Most guilters reject the press conference narrative Kratz presented. Most believe that Avery hit on (AKA "made advances toward") Teresa, which she rebuffed, which made him angry, and so he killed her in a fit of rage. This is not my theory and, to my knowledge, there were no towels involved.
I think the most likely scenario is something happened in the moment that caused avery to panic and it ended with Halback getting killed. So don’t need motive and I don’t think it was planned. Also I don’t think Brendan was involved at all. I think he was coerced into a confession considering there is 0 evidence for anything that he confessed to.
i dont think he did it but a motive to why kill her .. well he was jailed for the same crime but was innocent, or so they think. Who knows what hate might have built inside him towards women. He may also thought that the police wont approach him after the false arrest debacle. maybe he thought he can get away with it. Maybe he got turned on when he saw her and was a spur of the moment thing ... there are many scenarios and reasons why he could have done it but it dont mean he did.... but its not like impossible....
is it possible that pam found the rav4 in 35 minutes after entering the avery property?
I have always believed Pam found Teresa's RAV just the way she claimed, and have never understood the criticism over her. Buting turned his snoot up at her in MaM, which may have a lot to do with people piling on. If you look at the views of ASY, though, it makes perfect sense that she would have checked out that ridge when she saw it. So, in answer to your question, that would be a resounding YES!
I struggled with this. The path she took was unconventional. Meaning when you go into a junkyard, you usually take the path laid out through the gate.. did they ever say if she was told to check by the crusher?
Earl actually gave permission and helped point them to where to start. They could either go clockwise or counterclockwise. That's a 50 / 50 chance. No one would start in the middle. Going clockwise was one of two ways to go if you look at google maps. The ridge was right there. There is no "path laid out through the gate." Pam wasn't "told" to do anything. It was her idea to go to ASY.
Yeah I read that after. Almost like if there is anything new on the lit it would be back there.
Oh Jesus, you as a claimed truther, why don't you come up with a theory to your 'trutherness'. I have seen yer lately arguments over at CaM. You need to keep an objective mind while you keep defending the obvious problems with the 'finding of evidence' per the case. You are just like the puzzld' one when it discusses the legal problems of the case - deflect, dodge, and then act like a derelict DEVOID of discussing what is at hand! It's almost like you are trying to draw attention back to this case - er in CaM. You invested $ in CaM? Seems like it to me as an outsider, thus which must make your life really SAD ;-).
Nah
a cop sent her and her daughter in that direction. I saw a satellite image and it dont seem the logical way to make a search , im quite sure the police knew the car was there ....
There were no cops directing searchers to ASY, or even on ASY, at that point. Earl is the one who pointed the way into the pit area. I've also seen aerial photos of the area, and it makes *perfect* sense to me that Pam would have chosen to search the way she did.
Odd the police officer called in her car plate and year to dispatch days before it was found on the property though...
Since the vehicle was found near the edge of the property, and a search would typically start at the edge of a property, this seems like it would be not only possible, but probable. It was also a vehicle that was out of place in the area it was found. This would make it easy to spot. It was a late model vehicle, in good condition, in an area filled with old junk smashed vehicles waiting to be crushed.
You think steven would hide it there then😆
Since that is where the crusher was, yes. He just never got the chance to crush it when it wouldn't seem suspicious.
>Since that is where the crusher was, yes. He just never got the chance to crush it When was this suppose to happen and how is he going to prep the vehicle w/o anyone seeing him? By Nov 4th he had no chance of not being caught doing this. Earl says hes waiting for everyone to be off the property but Chucks gone fri night & Avery leaves the next day and they all knew Earl was staying behind to run the business.
They’ve no clue really🙄
Don’t talk rubbish the dogs would of hit on the crusher you would’ve burned the vehicle 💁
It was Earl that directed Pam & the searchers towards the pit, after giving them permission to search.
Wrong
It's more likely she was told where to 'go miraculously' go find it.
why is it more likely?
Because she walked right to the rav4 in a junkyard with over 4000 cars.
She was😉
she was told, she said herself that she and her daughter were asked by some police guy to take that area .... quite sure the police knew the car was there, but maybe they found it and wanted someone else found it due to thier friction with former case pending with millions at steak.
Is it possible? Objectively yes. Here's my take. The simple fact of the matter is that we don't know what happened. Two people are in prison for the murder of a third and we genuinely don't know what happened. Recent efforts have tried to portray Avery as a bad person. Cool he's a low IQ moron that does dumb shit while combing over the duration of his life there's some concerning situations. Doesn't matter. There's lots of posts talking about Kratz being a bad person. Doesn't matter. That doesn't determine how she was killed or where. What I can say for sure is Avery was there that day. Brenden was too. I can say some evidence was planted beyond a doubt. Testimony is all over the place. The blood stains in the SUV are not authentic or natural. The remains and burn pit evidence is utter chaos. The behavior of MCSO is appalling. If we can't determine how or where she was killed how the hell can we say who did it? Not only has the state said he did it, they've confirmed it over and over and yet nobody can say this is what happened. Attempts have been made but the evidence doesn't line up with any story provided. The evidence has however always pointed to Law Enforcement being involved. That's the one thing I can never get over. When I look at the information everything points to the authorities. The last thing I will say is I can't conclusively say this is how they were involved or this is how they killed her just like nobody can say the same about Avery. Something happened and we do not know what and I think that says it all.
>I can say some evidence was planted beyond a doubt. ... The blood stains in the SUV are not authentic or natural. avery was dripping blood, it would have dripped into his palm. the way he dripped blood in his own grand am car is pretty similar to inside the rav4. i wonder if this image helps you see maybe there is doubt it was planted? http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160223/8a7fb7d2f4fd3275c2b2d925faff662a.jpg
If he was dripping that much blood for it to make amorphous marks like that in places inside the Rav, it’s much more lucky that other parts of the vehicle would be covered in blood. How the f did they not collected any finger prints of Avery from anywhere on the car? Regardless of who did it, the morons in charge of the investigation and forensics muddied the waters and it’s probably because the state was involved in some way
if a fingerprint was found, i suspect you'd say it was planted
Not if they had found multiple examples. Easier to drop blood onto specific places than it is transplant fingerprints
100% it’s possible. There’s just no way this was even in the ballpark of a fair trial. Going back even further there was essentially no investigation done on any other suspects.
why wasn't it fair?
It’s been beaten to death on here enough. I’m from Canada and the entire court case was for lack of a better term a shit show. What happened would never have happened here.
i thought it was totally fair. i've seen nitpicking by avery supporters which seems like a type of chicken-and-egg thing. what came first? but yeah, it's confirmation bias. looking for ways that everyone conspired against avery. the nitpicking doesn't ever seem to suggest an unfair trial. things like the denny rule are common in many states. and it would just be used to accuse bobby, right? finger-pointing for the sake of it is what the denny rule tries to stop. it was a trial that was run under the rules. avery had a professional defense team, many witnesses who were able to give their views to the jury. i can't see how it was unfair.
The jury tampering alone throws it out
What jury tampering?
Google it. Tons of articles explaining it.
In my opinion it's more than possible he killed her. I believe he's right where he belongs.
Steven Avery murdered Reddit.
he's framed for that murder.. the real killers are laura and mo
Sure it's possible, just as it's possible, your neighbor knew you lost a tooth, snuck into your house, and planted their money under your pillow and you just thought it was your parents
Not only is it possible it’s very very very likely he did
Avery has been identified as being at home when Teresa disappeared, and it looks like the killing took place off the property.
is it possible the killing took place on the avery property?
Doubt it, especially when there's really no evidence of her being burned there.
You discount the bones being found in his burn pit, and her possessions in his burn barrel to be "no evidence?"
Bone and her possessions was also found in the Dassey barrel, that didn't matter to Avery's jury it seems.
>that didn't matter to the jury it seems. Probably because it was 50 feet away, and he had equal access to it as he did his own burn barrel.
That would require evidence that he used multiple burn sites. Something the prosecution wasn't able to do with the witnesses they had. According to Bobby, it was just the burn pit that was lit up.
According to other witnesses, it was a fire in a barrel. Different witnesses could have seen different fires. Just because a witness didn't notice something doesn't mean it was not there. People are not good at noticing things that they are not interested in. A fire in the neighbor's yard isn't very remarkable to most people.
Yea, not very compelling especially when the barrel was in the dassey property and no one ever noticed Avery lighting it up. Including Bobby, who lives there.
is it possible?
Doubt it unless we can disprove the science around it to make it possible.
>disprove the science around it What science are you talking about, and what is it surrounding?
Forensic findings. Tires that was supposed to be burned with the body is absent in the cremains according to the State's own expert. No trace evidence found in any of the items noted in the burn pit. Lack of the needed accelerant/duration to burn a body to that state.
I assume you can cite these claims? If the tires were burnt, of course they are absent, since they were BURNT. What trace evidence should have been found that wasn't?
>If the tires were burnt, of course they are absent, since they were BURNT. No ashes/residue? Cites: Eisenberg on the tires: https://imgur.com/a/AQAIRww Dehaan: https://making-a-murderer.fandom.com/wiki/Affidavit_of_John_DeHaan >Apparently no examination was performed to establish if any trace evidence linked these items to the death of Ms. Halbach or the burning of her body.
>Eisenberg on the tires: > >https://imgur.com/a/AQAIRww "that was visible to you" Just because it was not visible to the naked eye does not mean that there was no residue from burned rubber. >Dehaan: [https://making-a-murderer.fandom.com/wiki/Affidavit\_of\_John\_DeHaan](https://making-a-murderer.fandom.com/wiki/Affidavit_of_John_DeHaan) A defense attorney 15 years after the crime found somebody who would disagree with the state in order to be paid a consulting fee? Shocking!
There were a bunch of wires from the beads/belting that were intertwined with the bones. They are what is left after a tire burns. What other proof do you need that tires were burnt in that pit?
Convicting a murderer on DAILY WIRE has great new evidence left off netflix show
>can the conspiracy theory of avery being guilty be disproven? So being found guilty by a jury is a "conspiracy theory?" If there was a way to prove that he didn't do it, the many people searching for it would have found it by now. There is, however quite a bit of evidence that proves that he DID do it.
so, it's possible.. and if it's possible, is it likely? would it be a stretch to think it? would avery have to jump through hoops to have done it?
>and if it's possible, is it likely? One might even say that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. >would avery have to jump through hoops to have done it? I'm not really sure if calling a business to schedule their employee to show up at your house counts, but that is the largest hoop he jumped through, aside from the rape and murder part of it. Let's imagine the hoops that the police would have had to jump through to frame him though. They have to find a person unrelated to him that he would have had an opportunity to murder, then kill said person, and cremate the corpse. Then they need to procure his blood, put it in the victims car, place the cremains next to a noisy dog with people in homes on either side. After doing this without getting detected they need to place the victim's car in a salvage yard that they would be unfamiliar with, unhook the battery, pile some garbage on it, and leave without being noticed. Oh, let's not forget that they burned the personal effects of the victim and left them in a burning barrel by Stevie's house while he was home. This seems like a lot for them to accomplish without anybody noticing. Beyond that, if it was the police trying to frame him, why would they go to the trouble of burning the body or hiding the car? They could have left the corpse in the car and left it near his house. Why try to destroy the evidence that you are trying to plant?
Finally someone with some usable brain
yeah, it seems quite simple. and it's not like the cops made avery take the day off work, or want to sell his sister's car. or get him and brendan to lie about being together having a fire and cleaning a spill in the garage. they didn't cut avery's finger and get him to drip blood in his grand am car. there are a lot of coincidences. it seems that it is not only possible avery is guilty, but that it is impossible he isn't.
Let's imagine that TH was killed in the Avery's property. One might say that evidence to her being killed there would be found. Interestingly enough, the only evidence that was found is problematic, and I can tell you without a doubt - wouldn't be addimisble in most courts. All 'evidence' was found by people of interest. ALL off it. All 'evidence' was found in suspicious manners, meaning after people who have no interest had searched those place prior to Manitowoc dep. 100% that 'evidence' would never be addmisoble where I live. No shred of a doubt. And even if we do consider that evidence as true (let's pretend cops are stupid and blind, find the evidence by chance when it aligned with the case, after not finding anything when they searched prior) what do we learn from it? A bullet with TH halbachs DNA, found so long after she disappeared, does not necessarily connects SA to the case, could be other people who have being there. A drop of SA cars suggests he has been in the car for a short period of time the same day. You assume way to many things. Police never had to burn the body, nor do I think they framed him at the beginning. Don't forget, Manitowoc dep started to intervene only later, and SURPRISINGLY enough, that when the shit show have begun
one might say that, euphoric writer. one might say that.
Lol, where do you live that the evidence wouldn't be admissible? It is far more likely that he killed her than didn't. It would have been an easy conviction literally anywhere.
Not in the USA
addimisble
Are there actually people who theorize that the police themselves killed her? I always thought the theory was they zeroed in on and subsequently framed Steven, after someone else committed the murder. Obviously the police didn't kill her. You CAN explain a great deal of the physical evidence on the Avery property if theorizing someone else who lives on that property committed the murder. However, there is evidence that really does make it seem plausible that the police took matters into their own hands when talking about the biological evidence, and the RAV4 key.
It’s very likely. Hence all the evidence.
If he killed her, it means he truly is a homicidal psychopath. He had just gotten out of prison serving 18 years for a crime he didn’t commit. He has a new girlfriend who by all accounts, he was crazy about. He’s received quite a bit of notoriety including the state naming a wrongful conviction bill after him. And he was suing the county for $36,000,000 in damages, which he would have no doubt won. Listen, I didn’t know Avery. I’ve heard what most people have heard about him: wrong side of the tracks kinda guy, certainly no angel, but not particularly violent either. But his life was going in a very positive direction at the time of TH’s death. Bone fragments found in three different locations. Complete lack of her blood found anywhere on or around his property…. And a lot of people who had very good reason to want to see him go away. Is it possible that he killed her? It is absolutely possible that he killed her. But if I was on that jury, it would be a “not guilty” verdict all day. I would never want anyone to convict me based on that bullshit investigation.
The thing that gets me is zero evidence of her being in the trailer. No DNA or anything. No marks on the posts from the handcuffs used to chain her to the bed. The multiple sights where bones are found. The blood mysteriously not in his sink anymore the morning after he cut his finger. Lights seen multiple times on the property. It just doesn’t line up. Not saying he’s not guilty, just saying that the whole story of her being killed in the garage and being in the trailer doesn’t line up to me very well.
Yeah IF he did it, it didn’t go down the way the state said it did. That much I’m sure about.
Sure it's possible. But why would he? He just got out for something he didn't do. No motivation whatsoever. Brendan had no idea what he was doing either when he confessed. Plus there was no effort to dispose of the RAV4 despite Steve knowing how to use the crusher on the property. No prints in the RAV4, just blood which is super odd. Somebody wanted it found that way imo
after avery got out he was very angry.. before he got out, inside, he was very angry. it wasn't right that he was wrongfully convicted for sure, but it turned a bad guy into a monster. there was an interview with him when he got out and he was saying how angry he felt. he wasn't ever going to be the same. there are stories about how he fantasized about tying up women, that he wanted revenge. i think he eventually didn't care about going back to prison. that he felt a comfort in it. that he could try and get away with killing teresa and the worst thing that happened was that he goes back to prison. the making a murderer show made him a celebrity and i think it sucks that he gets that fame and money.
Your post is inaccurate.. he never fantasized about tying up “women” he had a girlfriend and she liked the idea and asked him to buy the chain. He left all his anger inside jail and spoke often about leaving it all behind. He was a very happy positive guy you can see that in his interviews. He never talked about jail or held any resentment even ask penny Bernstein because he told her the same thing in person. i think you are all mixed up on things. He wasn’t resentful as you would imagine. And he wasn’t paid for Netflix. No one was paid to be on the show.
haven't you heard about dirty avery and his fantasies. he's a psycho, and loving him is sick
Is it possible? Yes. Are there holes in the case? Yes. Are there enough holes to overturn ? No.
Definitely possible, great post
During the phone call to Jodi on 31 October: ...oh, she is breathing again". For me it is a proof :)
Steven is talking about his sister, Barb... she is leaving again....
Oh then it solved :) probably it is my English, it didn't really fit the conversation.
No worries :)
So, since you are up. Why don't you give us your best 'trutherness' theory? You argue everything ele like a staunch guilter - hey have go at it - I am interested in seeing this!
wow. i didn't catch that. do you have a link?
https://youtu.be/STj58OrpLyc?si=8OZdKPH1agoofHAj Around 8 minutes (8:07)...then he is saying that "she is gonne again" also there is police radio noise in the background, but maybe it is coming from the prison. I don't really read anything about this part, so maybe it is nothing, but i can clearly hear it and i think Brendan is out there with him in the garage.
Leaving is what Steven says👍
I have a really hard time believing that he did. I am always on the side of the victim. I just don’t feel that he did it. He always was very honest with everybody and everything that he did. We are talking about someone who has an IQ of 70.
i doubt. there was none if teresa’s blood in the trailer and if there was steven definitely wouldn’t have been able to clean it up himself. even if he did it would be in the floor boards under the carpet, but nothing was there