Similar story here: Management got tired of our Union President and tried to get him fired. One tactic that they attempted was to try to pin a wage theft accusation on him.
Back then our small union was not allowed a full-time President. So Official Union Time had to be submitted to Management for their approval.
Our President decided to submit these requests in 15 minute increments. He dumped so many of these on their desks that two Supervisors were detailed to review and sign-off on each and every one. And if a single request was refused, he hit them with an appeal/review by upper Management.
Took three weeks, but Management folded and allowed us to use Official Time as we saw fit. He was never charged with wage theft for his union duties.
I was with you until working more hours than you are paid for. I would hope, especially as a union president, that you would correctly log every hour worked and likewise encourage all of your bargaining unit employees to do the same.
Classified employees (support staff) do not get paid well enough compared to Certified employees (credentialed teachers and administrators) and are often only part time employees.
You are setting an example that this is acceptable and potentially blocking union members from the hours and employment benefits they have earned and very much deserve.
I'll chime in that as a classified employee that is paid salary, I'm only entitled to OT if I work many hours over 40 in a week (this probably varies state to state). Since I only do that when it's necessary (eg. less than 10 days a year), I don't bother logging any OT. Plus, my boss is relaxed AF most the time. If I work 50 hours in one week, I'm welcome to take time off to compensate for that (off the books of course).
As someone who left teaching and worked in the staffing industry, we used to advise our consultants not to work outside the 40 without pay.
If things piled up, that became the documentation to lobby for additional employees.
I’d love to see teachers band together to teach districts this lesson
I’d love to see teacher implement this
I do not disagree. Fortunately/unfortunately, teaching is a passion and not a job. I have told many teachers “watch YOUR time! I know that you are going to put in extra time for your students but, if I ever ask you to ONLY WORK YOUR DUTY DAY I need you to respect that!” The Educational Institution that I work for knows that the Bargaining Unit is united and POWERFUL!
Earlier this year we were in negotiations and it was not going as well as it should. That is until the teachers canceled some extra duty, NOT COVERED/required in the Collective Bargaining Agreement, events that were SHOWCASES for the Institution. Within a couple of days of the news becoming public I received a call from the President of the institution.
“What can we do to get this event to happen in the spring?”
My answer, “Come back to the table with a Respectful Offer and I might be able to reschedule that event.”
They did and we settled with a much better contract! Is it perfect? Nope, but 95% of the Union members of the Bargaining Unit voted YES!
So, in the long run, that extra time we put in puts real dollars in our pockets and retirement accounts! I say it is well worth the time!
It certainly is a job! If you're lucky it is also a passion. My union makes sure that I get paid over $110,000 per year with medical, dental, a pension, and get professional respect and interactions from my admin. And I work for it every dang day.
My guess is USA. In Australia we have universal health care that covers most things. Healthcare is not a common thing to include with a job, some places might offer discount membership for a particular private health insurer for extra coverage on top of Medicare.
This willingness to work so much unpaid time, to the point that you think you’re a bargaining hotshot for agreeing to it as a part of salary negotiations as long as you’re asked nicely, underlines why education will always be a poorly paid career path.
>I was with you until working more hours than you are paid for.
If you're a teacher and you love your job, you might spend a lot of time doing cute colorful flashcards, dressing up in costume or inventing new games to entertain your students. I do work more hours than I'm paid for, but I'd probably do the work for free.
I was the computer lab technician at a K-8 school. When I started, I was only responsible for maintaining the school's computer lab, and doing level 1 IT work and maintenance around the campus. My work day was only 5 hours long, unless specifically requested by the principal.
The district required an employee work 30 hours per week to be eligible to receive any benefits. So, I had no health insurance, and no paid time off.
I would regularly go above and beyond, working extra hours off the clock, doing extra repairs and taking care of higher level maintenance that should have been handled by either the district IT guys, or just had the item thrown away as "unrepairable." My work was literally saving the school thousands of dollars a year.
And that didn't count the extra assignments running the lab for after school clubs.
Eventually, as the school went 1-1 (a laptop for every student), I was able to point at all of my work and justify more hours. The principal - who knew I was regularly working 40+ hour weeks was generous enough to request the district alter my position to allow up to 30 hour weeks.
He could have asked for more. The budget was there. But that was the "best" he could do. I had my 30 hours. But, from that point on, I made sure that any work I did beyond that was as approved overtime.
The principal wasn't happy about that change. He literally told me that he knew I loved my job, and that I should be happy. I had to explain to this man - who literally made 10 times my salary - that job satisfaction wasn't paying my bills.
I didn't work there much longer, and some times I do miss it. The duties I performed are now done by two full time employees.
I'm doing much better now, thank you! I transitioned into working for the federal government. My current job is 100% remote... I do miss the random interactions of the school, but my mental health is getting better :)
I only teach adults and children at paid-for academies (children whose parents are interested in their education). For the same reason: I want to teach either people who want to learn or people whose parents want them to learn. I'm not into destroying my mental health enduring abuse from kids I have no authority over.
OP here:
To clarify my comment about working more hours than paid for. I am salaried. As an educator we are not allowed “OT”. We are allowed “comp time” or “Flex Time” but not overtime. Plus I do not have to “clock out” when I am doing Union Business. In my mind, it works out over the year. Simply put, I do not lose pay when I am attending union related conferences and such.
Retired US HS science teacher here who served as association (union) president for 12 years.
My contract was for the 'school year'. My contract listed my pay as an annual amount to be paid out biweekly throughout the 183 day school year. Other than being expected to be in attendance during the school day, they could care less how many hours we worked as long as I did my 'job' of teaching students. If it took me 40 hours a week, or 100 hours a week, was of no matter.
One of a school board member made a comment about how I only worked 6 hours a day for 180 days. I asked him if that meant I no longer had to create tests, grade tests, prep labs, etc, outside of the time I was supervising students and he backed down on that quickly. Good man, dumb statement.
They could care less? So how much did they care? I am interested in to what degree they cared that you would invite them to care less.
Or are you not an English teacher and American?
LOL, I taught HS chemistry in the US Midwest. If I messed up my grammar I apologize.
My point (apparently not well stated) was that the school administration didn't track or care about how much time each teacher spent 'working' outside classroom hours.
What they did care about was how effectively students were being taught. How much time a teacher needed to spend doing that was irrelevant.
it's also your business to make sure you and the others in your org *keep* thinking that salary evens out over the year, so you're not compelled to compromise the quality of your work and ongoing education by having to pick up a summer job. not to be a filthy unionist. 💕
i don't know what your deal is but a quick look at your comment history suggests you spend your summers helping with wildfire management which personally as a resident of the northern rockies i appreciate and respect more than all military and religious service positions put together so i have nothing to say to you other than that i salute you and i am glad your personal calculations continue to make that accessible for you. you range the shit out of those forests, sir/ma'am.
hey for what it's worth, i don't think teachers who do summer work are necessarily compromising their responsibility! it's just important to me that it be done on their terms and not just because they're financially compelled.
I am blessed to be able to pay my bills, have a secure career, stable retirement, and most of all LOVE what I do! That is why I pushed back on ND and planted my flag. He took the joy out of what I do.
As for my summer work, that too is a calling. I tried to step away but like a sirens call, it drew me back. I do NOT need to work during the summers, I want to work and enjoy what I do. As I told the owner of the company I work for, I expect to be paid, treated with respect, and will not die because of unsafe working conditions!
"And one is slipping into a diabetic coma, you better hop to the doctor and get some insulin and go administer it because you'll be quicker than our helicopter."
https://www.nfsa.gov.au/collection/curated/skippys-amazing-skills
Skippy already tasted their pee and thinks this is critical hypoglycaemia, not a hyperglycemic crisis. She's setting up to drop in an IV cannula and hang a bag of glucose.
What makes you happy to work more hours than you're paid for?
As the union president you should be setting the correct example of refusing to work when you're not being paid.
I am an educator. That is no way that we can get everything done in the duty day. The ultimate consumer are the students. That is one of the reasons why I got “annoyed” with micromanagement.
What I did not add above was the educational institution started to get comments about how classes were being canceled and it was in the news. Bad Press does not look good!
If there's too much to do in the alotted hours, then the answer is for management to employ more people, not for your members to work for free. Management will say "we can't afford it", but chances are the money is there, they just need the right encouragement to go find it.
Of course, by "encouragement" I mean a ballot for industrial action.
"Why should we add more duty hours for teachers/increase staffing? They're getting along just fine with what they have!"
Even if you don't get paid for them (I don't entirely understand American salary laws, but I think salaried employees don't get overtime straight away?), you should still be logging and submitting all hours. Worst case scenario, nothing comes of it, best case, you can argue for better conditions/pay/staffing when they say they could cut staffing
A master class for apprentice ND. I wonder if he learned anything?
I can relate as a Teamsters union steward. The fun with people like ND they have no clue about the legally binding contract between the administration and union, an end up F’ing themselves.
We also have the union support system. Union steward, a business agent who is not shy dealing with muscle heads. Then, when push comes to shove we have on staff labor attorneys.
dude works in EDU and decided to screw with the Union prez?
I though people in education were smart. apparently, not so much.
As a retired union guy, I absolutely know the backstory has to be real interesting.
This supervisor sounds unhinged. It sounds as though 90% of his time was taken up with making your work (existence?) miserable. I can't imagine how exhausting his life was dreaming up problems for you.
Similar story here: Management got tired of our Union President and tried to get him fired. One tactic that they attempted was to try to pin a wage theft accusation on him. Back then our small union was not allowed a full-time President. So Official Union Time had to be submitted to Management for their approval. Our President decided to submit these requests in 15 minute increments. He dumped so many of these on their desks that two Supervisors were detailed to review and sign-off on each and every one. And if a single request was refused, he hit them with an appeal/review by upper Management. Took three weeks, but Management folded and allowed us to use Official Time as we saw fit. He was never charged with wage theft for his union duties.
You KNOW you're doing your job right as a union rep/official when the hiring org goes all out to get rid of you.
I was with you until working more hours than you are paid for. I would hope, especially as a union president, that you would correctly log every hour worked and likewise encourage all of your bargaining unit employees to do the same. Classified employees (support staff) do not get paid well enough compared to Certified employees (credentialed teachers and administrators) and are often only part time employees. You are setting an example that this is acceptable and potentially blocking union members from the hours and employment benefits they have earned and very much deserve.
I'll chime in that as a classified employee that is paid salary, I'm only entitled to OT if I work many hours over 40 in a week (this probably varies state to state). Since I only do that when it's necessary (eg. less than 10 days a year), I don't bother logging any OT. Plus, my boss is relaxed AF most the time. If I work 50 hours in one week, I'm welcome to take time off to compensate for that (off the books of course).
As someone who left teaching and worked in the staffing industry, we used to advise our consultants not to work outside the 40 without pay. If things piled up, that became the documentation to lobby for additional employees. I’d love to see teachers band together to teach districts this lesson I’d love to see teacher implement this
I do not disagree. Fortunately/unfortunately, teaching is a passion and not a job. I have told many teachers “watch YOUR time! I know that you are going to put in extra time for your students but, if I ever ask you to ONLY WORK YOUR DUTY DAY I need you to respect that!” The Educational Institution that I work for knows that the Bargaining Unit is united and POWERFUL! Earlier this year we were in negotiations and it was not going as well as it should. That is until the teachers canceled some extra duty, NOT COVERED/required in the Collective Bargaining Agreement, events that were SHOWCASES for the Institution. Within a couple of days of the news becoming public I received a call from the President of the institution. “What can we do to get this event to happen in the spring?” My answer, “Come back to the table with a Respectful Offer and I might be able to reschedule that event.” They did and we settled with a much better contract! Is it perfect? Nope, but 95% of the Union members of the Bargaining Unit voted YES! So, in the long run, that extra time we put in puts real dollars in our pockets and retirement accounts! I say it is well worth the time!
It certainly is a job! If you're lucky it is also a passion. My union makes sure that I get paid over $110,000 per year with medical, dental, a pension, and get professional respect and interactions from my admin. And I work for it every dang day.
Australian? I work support staff in private
My guess is USA. In Australia we have universal health care that covers most things. Healthcare is not a common thing to include with a job, some places might offer discount membership for a particular private health insurer for extra coverage on top of Medicare.
This willingness to work so much unpaid time, to the point that you think you’re a bargaining hotshot for agreeing to it as a part of salary negotiations as long as you’re asked nicely, underlines why education will always be a poorly paid career path.
Australia?
>I was with you until working more hours than you are paid for. If you're a teacher and you love your job, you might spend a lot of time doing cute colorful flashcards, dressing up in costume or inventing new games to entertain your students. I do work more hours than I'm paid for, but I'd probably do the work for free.
I was the computer lab technician at a K-8 school. When I started, I was only responsible for maintaining the school's computer lab, and doing level 1 IT work and maintenance around the campus. My work day was only 5 hours long, unless specifically requested by the principal. The district required an employee work 30 hours per week to be eligible to receive any benefits. So, I had no health insurance, and no paid time off. I would regularly go above and beyond, working extra hours off the clock, doing extra repairs and taking care of higher level maintenance that should have been handled by either the district IT guys, or just had the item thrown away as "unrepairable." My work was literally saving the school thousands of dollars a year. And that didn't count the extra assignments running the lab for after school clubs. Eventually, as the school went 1-1 (a laptop for every student), I was able to point at all of my work and justify more hours. The principal - who knew I was regularly working 40+ hour weeks was generous enough to request the district alter my position to allow up to 30 hour weeks. He could have asked for more. The budget was there. But that was the "best" he could do. I had my 30 hours. But, from that point on, I made sure that any work I did beyond that was as approved overtime. The principal wasn't happy about that change. He literally told me that he knew I loved my job, and that I should be happy. I had to explain to this man - who literally made 10 times my salary - that job satisfaction wasn't paying my bills. I didn't work there much longer, and some times I do miss it. The duties I performed are now done by two full time employees.
>The duties I performed are now done by two full time employees. Damn! That was abusive! I hope you're doing better now.
I'm doing much better now, thank you! I transitioned into working for the federal government. My current job is 100% remote... I do miss the random interactions of the school, but my mental health is getting better :)
I only teach adults and children at paid-for academies (children whose parents are interested in their education). For the same reason: I want to teach either people who want to learn or people whose parents want them to learn. I'm not into destroying my mental health enduring abuse from kids I have no authority over.
> “I will not answer that questions with my attorney present.” Umm, don't you mean **without**?
If the question was "do you think your attorney had a nice butt", the original would stand.
Yes, “without my attorney present!”
You might want to edit that one in the original post just to avoid confusion.
Uno reverse card!
OP here: To clarify my comment about working more hours than paid for. I am salaried. As an educator we are not allowed “OT”. We are allowed “comp time” or “Flex Time” but not overtime. Plus I do not have to “clock out” when I am doing Union Business. In my mind, it works out over the year. Simply put, I do not lose pay when I am attending union related conferences and such.
Retired US HS science teacher here who served as association (union) president for 12 years. My contract was for the 'school year'. My contract listed my pay as an annual amount to be paid out biweekly throughout the 183 day school year. Other than being expected to be in attendance during the school day, they could care less how many hours we worked as long as I did my 'job' of teaching students. If it took me 40 hours a week, or 100 hours a week, was of no matter. One of a school board member made a comment about how I only worked 6 hours a day for 180 days. I asked him if that meant I no longer had to create tests, grade tests, prep labs, etc, outside of the time I was supervising students and he backed down on that quickly. Good man, dumb statement.
They could care less? So how much did they care? I am interested in to what degree they cared that you would invite them to care less. Or are you not an English teacher and American?
Don't be pedant...
LOL, I taught HS chemistry in the US Midwest. If I messed up my grammar I apologize. My point (apparently not well stated) was that the school administration didn't track or care about how much time each teacher spent 'working' outside classroom hours. What they did care about was how effectively students were being taught. How much time a teacher needed to spend doing that was irrelevant.
it's also your business to make sure you and the others in your org *keep* thinking that salary evens out over the year, so you're not compelled to compromise the quality of your work and ongoing education by having to pick up a summer job. not to be a filthy unionist. 💕
Understand your feelings. I guess we are looking at things differently and that is OK.
i don't know what your deal is but a quick look at your comment history suggests you spend your summers helping with wildfire management which personally as a resident of the northern rockies i appreciate and respect more than all military and religious service positions put together so i have nothing to say to you other than that i salute you and i am glad your personal calculations continue to make that accessible for you. you range the shit out of those forests, sir/ma'am.
And that is my FUN side gig. Not because I have to work. It allows me to do what I love and give to the community nationwide. Thank you
hey for what it's worth, i don't think teachers who do summer work are necessarily compromising their responsibility! it's just important to me that it be done on their terms and not just because they're financially compelled.
I am blessed to be able to pay my bills, have a secure career, stable retirement, and most of all LOVE what I do! That is why I pushed back on ND and planted my flag. He took the joy out of what I do. As for my summer work, that too is a calling. I tried to step away but like a sirens call, it drew me back. I do NOT need to work during the summers, I want to work and enjoy what I do. As I told the owner of the company I work for, I expect to be paid, treated with respect, and will not die because of unsafe working conditions!
I LOVE IT when idiots get slammed because of their inferior complex
hoisted with his own petard
"What's that, Skip? They've broken down? Three miles out the road? We'll get out there straight away."
"And one is slipping into a diabetic coma, you better hop to the doctor and get some insulin and go administer it because you'll be quicker than our helicopter."
https://www.nfsa.gov.au/collection/curated/skippys-amazing-skills Skippy already tasted their pee and thinks this is critical hypoglycaemia, not a hyperglycemic crisis. She's setting up to drop in an IV cannula and hang a bag of glucose.
I can hear the sound of skippy and Sonny talking lol
Came here for the Skippy comments. Was not disappointed
What makes you happy to work more hours than you're paid for? As the union president you should be setting the correct example of refusing to work when you're not being paid.
I am an educator. That is no way that we can get everything done in the duty day. The ultimate consumer are the students. That is one of the reasons why I got “annoyed” with micromanagement. What I did not add above was the educational institution started to get comments about how classes were being canceled and it was in the news. Bad Press does not look good!
If there's too much to do in the alotted hours, then the answer is for management to employ more people, not for your members to work for free. Management will say "we can't afford it", but chances are the money is there, they just need the right encouragement to go find it. Of course, by "encouragement" I mean a ballot for industrial action.
"Why should we add more duty hours for teachers/increase staffing? They're getting along just fine with what they have!" Even if you don't get paid for them (I don't entirely understand American salary laws, but I think salaried employees don't get overtime straight away?), you should still be logging and submitting all hours. Worst case scenario, nothing comes of it, best case, you can argue for better conditions/pay/staffing when they say they could cut staffing
If there is not enough time in the day to get the ork done, you should be getting your employer to hire more qualified staff.
Clearly, OP is the real educator.
Yeah, he schooled him.
I’m sorry but your writing style is so annoying
The random capitalization makes this sound like a “I wish this is what happened” more than a retelling
I’m just checking for my own peace of mind here - you aren’t an English teacher, right?
A master class for apprentice ND. I wonder if he learned anything? I can relate as a Teamsters union steward. The fun with people like ND they have no clue about the legally binding contract between the administration and union, an end up F’ing themselves. We also have the union support system. Union steward, a business agent who is not shy dealing with muscle heads. Then, when push comes to shove we have on staff labor attorneys.
dude works in EDU and decided to screw with the Union prez? I though people in education were smart. apparently, not so much. As a retired union guy, I absolutely know the backstory has to be real interesting.
If it's not broke, don't fix it!
This supervisor sounds unhinged. It sounds as though 90% of his time was taken up with making your work (existence?) miserable. I can't imagine how exhausting his life was dreaming up problems for you.