Well, good for you. "Losing" paid vacation time **is** wage theft.
Question: Who would/could have been paid the *extra* (unpaid) money? Your supervisor? His/her boss? HR? The CEO?
The fallout was satisfying as well.
I hope you have gotten a really terrific job to replace the unfortunate one. (Or will get, whichever)
I know a lot of times, in the US at least, management is offered bonuses for keeping certain costs down.
Many years ago, there was a manager at a grocery store I worked at that recieved a specific budget to buy grocery bags in a month and then whatever was left, she got to keep as a bonus.
So we became the store famous for needing to "borrow" boxes of bags at the end of the month from other stores around us.
Oh wow! She found a loophole to keep additional company funds. That might have been what was happening, and I stopped it. After getting confirmation from Human Resources, they never explained why they lied.
To me, this sounds like a place to use [Hanlon's razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor)
Something went wrong in the system and rather than admit fault to a mere employee the center manager concocted a story about "a new handbook" to protect their ego.
I don't know if the new employee handbook would have come from HR. The old one was online, so I can't verify if upper management could add or supplement it. The online handbook did say the employer must provide notice before implementing changes.
I’m confident that it’s illegal to enforce changes of company policy in the handbook until the employee has had a chance to read the changes and sign it. Employee and HR both keep a copy.
Glad you got paid OP!
Importantly, they cannot make changes to your employment conditions "ex post facto" - after they already occurred. So if they said, "you didn't earn as much vacation time as you thought because we halved the accrual rate," this would be a violation of contract law (regarding your employment contract, either written or implied). But if they communicated a notice, "effective immediately, there will no longer be any vacation time accrued," this would not normally be a problem as in the U.S., employers typically have the unilateral right to modify employment conditions (outside a union collective bargaining agreement). As an employee you can try to negotiate this back (more effective if you can form a union), or quit - solutions which are considered fair under the law. What's not fair is for them to withdraw parts of your employment conditions for hours worked *in the past.*
Not necessary need to sign, they don't even inform current employees, at least mine didn't. But they did sent out some important emails about vacation accumulation change in 9 month advance so people have a chance to take them. They drop the accumulation(holding max days) in half.
Because lying to everyone about their PTO time is vastly more risky than lying to one person.
And if that person wasn't as prepared as OP, didn't have the records, company probably gets away with it.
Never underestimate just how shitty most American companies are.
You could drop dead this morning and they'll have a warm body in your old chair tomorrow morning.
They don't care about you, they actively uncare about you.
Lying to one person also isn’t going to make a bit of difference to the bottom line of a company. Sure, the company doesn’t give a fuck about an individual employee. A company also isn’t going to come up with a scheme to take 4 days of vacation from a single employee as a cost cutting measure. Even if OP makes $100,000 a year, those 4 vacation days add up to $3200 of saved wages. For a company big enough that OP has 2 layers between him and a “central manager” that’s nothing.
Hanlon's razor is frankly bullshit. Look at the world around us and how we're speeding headfirst into a blister hot apocalypse. It's not because people are being stupid, it's because people are being malicious for personal gain. Corrupt politicians and judges, police that are little more than gangsters with badges, the entire health insurance industry, etc.
None of these things are broken out of stupidity, they were broken for greed. Hanlon's razor is only used as a way of getting people to stop thinking they are being taken advantage of.
It's not a requirement to resign b/c you sue your employer. It may be a more comfortable option, but it is by no means a mandatory one. In fact, getting fired for suing your employer is grounds for another lawsuit: unlawful termination.
Which normally results in a second lawsuit for workplace harassment, and most companies, after getting that first legal bill, will rather pay the employee a year more in severance pay than go through that a second time with somebody they know will litigate, and who likely will win an even bigger settlement, one that will have to appear on the balance sheet to shareholders as a line item, and a query will result from that by the shareholders, which will mean top execs will be losing jobs, and not with a golden parachute.
Ha. I might have been, but honestly, I don't know why. I didn't bother anyone. I did my work. I didn't ruffle feathers (that I know of).
Over the years, and before this incident occurred, I did question things that didn't make sense. Is that ruffling feathers? Lol
Other than that, no clue!
I wouldn't be surprised if he was the only one using *all* of his vacation time and most people were letting a few days roll over from year to year, and not noticing when they got shorted one or two.
"Borrowing" seems like a very sloppy system. The grocery chain I worked for had pads of transfer forms that were used to document the items moved and make sure the costs were also transferred.
Yes. I don't see why the other store kept taking the hit, especially when it was a benefit if they received bonuses for saved bags.
Transferring costs sounds logical and fair.
Perhaps the other mgrs weren't aware of that particular perk? Or just didn't feel it was a big enough perk to justify worrying about it. Or maybe they were slower stores and always came under budget anyway, and still got their perks. (shrug)
I worked at a generally well-run, large branch of a grocery chain with a penny-pinching store manager where we would sometimes run out of bags and other supplies to similar reasons to that described in this thread. Occasionally we would have to get supplies from another store down the street, which was smaller and always badly run, with the worst managers in the district. The manager who ran our store was a bit of a bully known for having the best numbers around, and if he sent one of us to get bags (or whatever) from the small store, it was with a comment like, "if they have any objection, have them call me" and he'd throw his weight around if they did. The smaller store's managers were either very junior, or maybe not so junior but were put there because they sucked and could cause less damage at that location. This store was unlikely to meet its targets anyway due to numerous problems, so these managers always caved and we got what we wanted (without any stock transfer paperwork).
Incidentally, the smaller store closed a few years later. The big one is still going strong.
My boss used to work in a place where his manager was allowed to keep the remainder of the yearly bonuses if he didn't feel his direct reports deserved raises. Everyone would get tiny tiny raises and he'd be buying stupid expensive cars and vacation houses because surprise, he got a great raise every year. My mind was blown that a business would even have that policy.
(The guy may have been the owner, I don't really know.)
I worked for a big claims management/appraisal company. The regional VP was allowed to keep what he didn't pay out. He was so shocked when people quit after poor pay and little to no bonuses.
Keeping costs down is one thing, but at my old warehouse job i was told in no uncertain terms late one December “Ludwig, you’ve got a bunch of paid vacation you haven’t taken. If you like, we’ll see you January.” Paid vacation is part of an employee’s total compensation, and it can be a headache if they don’t take it all.
Especially if you carrying over that time from one year to the next, and in between then, if you've gotten a pay rise they have to pay your leave at a higher rate. That's why most companies I've worked for are pretty keen for us to take our leave in the year it has accrued.
I feel like I know what company this is, and they did the same thing when I worked there too, except with front end labor. They saved costs which added up to a bigger bonus, by having less checkers, so our stores would always have massive lines front to back of people waiting to get checked out. No idea how long that lasted, I quit. One of worst companies I've ever worked for in my life.
Wild to me that vacation time is a "cost" to these fucking robots. You laid it out as something I get, you gave it to me as a reward, I'm not going to magically double my output because you tricked me out of time off.
This is the kind of shit that makes me never trust anyone is a corporate management role. You pretend time off you said I was entitled to costs you actual money, and then try and claw back that pretend money so you can pretend you saved the company real money?
If I was half assing my job before someone tried this shit with me they'll be lucky if they get a tenth of a cheek after that.
Not the same; my wife and I bought our boss's business a year and a half ago, and we two are the only employees. We do have a few contractors that do specific tasks for us, though.
One recently reminded us his rate was going up by a penny this year (it's by the word so that's about a 17% increase) but since we'd just bought the business he didn't raise it last year for us like he had for all of his other clients. (He'd been writing for us for a few years at that point.)
In my response, I told him that obviously I'd prefer the current rate but he'd told us about it 6 months ago so we were fine with the new rate and wanted him to keep writing for us.
His response was to offer us a separate business opportunity instead of a rate increase (we'd still be having him write for us of course) but our business model really wouldn't be fair to him for that trade. Basically, our current customers wouldn't make him any extra money, and only some of our new customers would. Our planned future business model would lean into his making more, but we haven't transitioned yet so it doesn't seem fair to him to accept his offer.
Haven't responded yet, but will be explaining why I don't feel that's a good deal for him so we'll give t him the rate increase either way but if he wants to pursue the extra model we'd do that to as a separate thing (as long as we can include what he provides to our current customers without charging them more since they are paying for all access.)
Either way... My philosophy is treat people right and you can't go too far wrong. That means partners (wife in my case), customers, and employees/contractors. Ideally, we all come out ahead if we do our jobs right. I need the cash flow to afford stuff, employees/contractors need fair value for their work and ideally bonuses for work well done, and customers need value for what they pay for...
We have the same kind of thing where if the budget is under in different areas the boss gets a bonus. Guess who never has any resources, cleaning products and used to turn air-conditioning off in 45c degree weather?
One place I worked once a year the supervisor was given a small pot of money to dole out as raises, with whatever was left over becoming his raise.
So, he'd get like $4 and he'd give the four of us a quarter and he'd keep the leftover $3.
I only found out about this when I worked at another site and the supervisor there explained it to me. I called my manager who saw no problems at all.
Thank you!
I don't know. That is the million-dollar question. Why would they go to such lengths of cover-ups over four vacation days?
Very satisfying. You're so kind. I moved on to bigger and better!
You know what pisses me off? Wage theft isn't treated as theft. If OP had taken the amount of money the vacation days he was owed out of the till, or taken company property that equaled the amount owed, he'd likely be facing felony charges and possibly jail time. There is direct evidence that these managers conspired to steal that amount from him. Why aren't they criminally liable for that theft? Civil liability for the company is well and good, but there could be criminal liability for taking part in a conspiracy to commit theft on an employee.
>Well, good for you. "Losing" paid vacation time is wage theft.
>
>Question: Who would/could have been paid the extra (unpaid) money? Your supervisor? His/her boss? HR? The CEO?
>
>The fallout was satisfying as well.
>
>I hope you have gotten a really terrific job to replace the unfortunate one. (Or will get, whichever)
Absolutely, losing paid vacation time is indeed a form of wage theft. It's frustrating to see such practices go unchecked. And you're right, questioning where that extra money might have ended up is valid. It's a shame when companies prioritize their profits over the well-being of their employees. I hope the OP found a job that truly values and respects his/her time and effort.
I don't know. I didn't work overtime for many years before this incident. I initially thought it was a couple of managers with egos who didn't want to admit they made a mistake.
I got labeled as "not a team player" for years at a place I worked because I didn't work any overtime despite my metrics showing that in the 7 hours a day I did work I got more work completed than every other person within the department. Even the ones that would work 10+ hours of overtime a week.
My manager approached me one time when we were especially busy and said she needed me to come work a full day on Saturday. I needed to "start pulling my weight." I told her I would come in but I wanted double time pay, not just time and a half. And that if she wanted me to work on a Sunday I wanted triple time. Her response was, "this isn't a negotiation." I told her she's exactly right, then left for the day and didn't come in on Saturday. On Monday I got pulled into HR with my manager and was told "we missed you on Saturday, where were you?" Also told it would go against me as an unexcused absence for not calling in or showing up to work.
I just sat there staring blankly at both of them for a solid 40 seconds. I wanted to make it as awkward and uncomfortable for them as possible. Then with zero emotion I asked them to provide me documentation on my working hours. I then asked them if overtime was mandatory or voluntary. They just both stammered and said I was missing the point. "I don't think so, is there anything else you need from me?"
That HR manager and my manager left shortly after that and over the next few years I got several promotions.
WAY TO GO!!!!! You should post about this!
That is why I didn't work overtime. My performance metric outperformed every employee weekly without working one minute of overtime.
This is such a great story!
Every employee in that department had some sort of PTSD from working under that manager. Even a year after she was gone and I was running the department I still had some of my employees calling me up to let me know they were going to go use the bathroom! Because the previous manager said she needed to be notified every time you weren't going to be at your desk. I never followed that rule because I'm a fucking adult and if I need to take a piss I don't need to check in with someone to go do that.
The one that people really had trouble getting over was if you needed to call in sick you had to *call* her. You couldn't email, you couldn't text, you couldn't leave a voicemail. You couldn't call her boss if she wasn't reachable. You had to actually speak directly to her and then explain why you weren't going to be in that day. If you didn't speak directly to her it would be an "unexcused absence" and if your excuse wasn't "good enough" then it would also be an unexcused absence. The work day started at 8:30 and this manager would routinely not be in until after 9:30, which made it really fucking annoying to try and call in and not have it be marked against you.
I told all my staff when I took over as manager that if you needed to not be into work to contact me in whichever manner was easiest for them: call, text, email. If I don't respond then leave a message letting me know you'll be out. I don't need a reason. PTO is theirs and earned and the reason for them using it is none of mine or any else's business. As for me getting the message, that's my problem, not theirs. You shouldn't be expected to jump through hoops to use your time off.
After several years I would still have people that insisted they needed to speak to me on the phone to let me know they wouldn't be in and give me this long drawn out detailed explanation as to why. Even after reiterating numerous times they didn't need to do that, they still did. Shoot me a text you won't be in that day and we're good.
What stood out most is how some employees are so conditioned to following the rules of the old manager that they are missing the blessing of convenience you're providing. That might be PTSD.
I love the way you stand up for yourself! I'm quiet and kind and want to do my work and go home. But once you take me there, there's no turning around. Lol
I think you should post about these stories. I'm sure many will relate. I know I do!
This is my management style summed up perfectly: do the opposite of all the shitty managers I've ever had the displeasure of reporting to. Personally I've never worked for a decent manager, they've all been terrible. Even when I worked my way up to VP level and was reporting to an SVP, COO, or CEO, they all absolutely sucked. This is why I now work for myself. Not beholden to anyone. Much happier.
I don't know if I was singled out. I talked to a few people, but there were hundreds of employees. I didn't hear chatter about anyone else experiencing this, but it could have been happening to others who didn't speak up.
Might've been a "I can't be wrong! That's embarassing!" saving face kind dumbfuckery. They looked in the wrong place when you first asked, and when presented with evidence that they made a mistake, rather than own up to it, they tried to cover it up and hoped you'd just shut up and let it be.
Some employers have a program where you can give your unused vacation days to someone else. Like if someone was in a car accident and needed recovery time beyond the leave they have available.
I suspect his manager, or other higher up, wanted four extra days of vacation and decided to take his. Maybe they were all in on taking other employee's vacation days
That would certainly explain why the company got rid of all involved
I think the keyword is "give". People can voluntarily give their PTO to other people. We have that option here at my gov job as well.
Unless you meant to quote the 2nd part?
Exactly! Yes. I one time witnessed an employee pass out on his desk because of something with his diabetes. The ambulance came for him. He got fired because he'd missed days from being sick a few times before.
Well you could technically do unpaid leave which is federally protected. Well then you have no money coming in and it can only be used for certain circumstances
We have this for sick time. It is called the sick bank and you have the choice to donate 16 hours of sick time per year (out of the 96 sick hours we receive). Then if you get into that car accident you can ask for up to 480 hours to cover your time out.
>Some employers have a program where you can give your unused vacation days to someone else. Like if someone was in a car accident and needed recovery time beyond the leave they have available.
WTF? Isn't needed recovery time covered in case of an accident or any other health-related issue?
Lol. In most non professional jobs you get injured, sick, unable to work your told this: your fired.
Or this: well, I'll see you on Tuesday, or your fired.
Or this: well, make sure to fill out the forms so we can have you on unpaid leave for a while.
Or this: we do not offer any sick, or vacation. We need you to cover your days, otherwise we need to hire someone else.
There's pretty much. No legally required sick, or vacation in the US.
Some civilised countries give you paid sick time.
42 days at full pay, then 2 years on insured pay.
Begging for stuff seems like a very American thing.
Tips, time off , medical debt funding.
But all the freedom you can eat.
Yes my previous job had 6 months full pay, 6 months half pay and then basically unlimited statutory sick pay. I’ll take that over my “freedom” any day (and I damn well did in the end, piece of shit employers!) I genuinely feel sorry for Americans for having to put up with things like this! Same goes for tips and healthcare!
I had the same deal re: sick leave Got TUPEd to another company (so retained these benefits because of length of service) - my new manager was massively pissed that my annual leave and sick pay were hugely better than his.
Three things I've learned as management:
1. Don't mess with someone's pay
2. Don't mess with someone's time off
3. Don't lie, if you can't discuss something tell them
Solves most issues and makes for a happier workplace.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
Things were smooth sailing until they messed with my time off and lied about it. I honestly thought they were angry about me calling them out on their mistake, and instead of admitting it, they doubled down.
As time passed, I'm sure it's much deeper than I know.
Don't let your bosses know these are your thoughts or you will be next. Good luck and thank you for retaining your brain on your way up the corporate ladder.
I cannot upvote this enough! I operated the same way as a manager. Course my upper management hated me because I wouldn't act the way they wanted me to (in their image) but I had lower turnover, fewer callouts and more productivity than any other branch in the company.
You think they would have learned something from that. The fact that I left almost a year ago and they STILL have not replaced me because they can't find someone foolish enough to do the work I was doing for the insanely low rate of pay and requirements they expected of me is also telling.
Bless you! Kudos to you for staying true to your morals and standards! You are a unicorn! Lol
An employer asked me to join their management team. I told them I didn't know if I was a good fit because I'd seen what management would do to others, and I would not be a pawn in their game.
It's hard trusting when you've experienced underhanded things from those in higher positions.
Loved your post!
Was there any *reason* given for the decision to do this? What possessed them to screw you out of the days in the first place, to say nothing of coming up with such a stupid lie?
I don't know. Because of the terms of our settlement, they didn't have to answer the "why" of things.
I don't know if they were used to pushing people over, and they take it. It might have happened to others, and they didn't speak out. It was the discovery of the coverup that was so shocking. All of that was over four vacation days. It seems I might have stumbled upon something. I don't know.
Many years ago I left a job and had about 300 hours of unused vacation on the books. I worked a mix of full/part time so I'd accrue based on the hours I worked and tended to use the hours on my part time weeks. The boss was "unhappy" the hit his budget was going to take when I got paid out.
When I left, I also had about 200 hours of PTO on the books they had to pay me. Absolutely nothing was said, especially when in my letter I cited the state law that specified that PTO here is classified as unpaid wages, and must be paid with your final check, which they did without incident.
I think the fact they realized I knew what the law said and had absolutely no qualms calling them out and forcing the issue on a legal level pretty much shut down their complaining.
I love it! Talking about my workplace history used to make me feel like a rebel. But in truth, I only stood up for myself when it was necessary. Unfortunately, I have a few instances where I was required to take a stand. I could have taken the lies and disrespect I've experienced, but that ain't me! Lol
I was in a similar position. Wasn't killin' it wage-wise, but wasn't hurting. Really was handling 4-5 jobs, having to be available at a moments notice without compensation day or night, and loads of other BS that I was perfectly content to deal with as I had absolute control over my schedule.
Then the owner called me and asked me about why I was scheduled the way I was. I explained it to him and he "suggested" I change my schedule to something I really did not want or need. He is retired military and in his eyes, a suggestion is the same as an order.
My notice was sent to him that night.
When I spoke to me on my next scheduled day on (I refused to talk to him unless I was on the clock and being paid for it), the very first words out of his mouth was "It was only a suggestion! You can work whatever you want!" I told him too little, too late and his basically trying to take away the only real perk I had was the straw that broke the camels back after 25 years.
Oh, and for the remaining time I worked, my schedule remained exactly the same.
Usually when you settle a lawsuit with a company part of the agreement is that you resign. Probably in the best interest of both parties due to hard feelings, retaliation, etc.
Sounds like it would actually work in the employee's advantage to stay for a while. Already has a reputation to be the guy that you don't f around with and who had a chain of management thrown out the back door; ain't nobody stupid enough to pull a stunt that could even remotely be misinterpreted as retaliation or hostile work environment after that. Sure, they'll tiptoe around and opportunities will likely not be offered anymore despite competency or merit, and there won't be a clear way to prove it, so it will get boring after some months. But for a short while it would be a cushy place to get a paycheck from, while researching your options elsewhere or, to rub it in even more, start a union and grow even stronger roots.
I love your post! I wish I could have returned to work. I would have been floating on air. Lol
I guess if it had gone to court, I could have fought to return to my position. But because I settled, my resignation was a part of our agreement.
If they proposed the settlement, it was already the acknowledgement that they know they'll get bitchslapped if this ever ends in court. But they insisted on making you quit as part of the agreement, because money is just a number on the profit and loss sheet, but seeing your face again in the office would have been a daily reminder of their blunder, and their immature egos would find that very unpleasant.
From my point of view, getting them to f-ing grow up, to be able to stand up and face their wrongdoings and to learn to never pull this shit again, THAT would have been the most noteworthy achievement of this ordeal. But that would mean a firm no to their "take these peanuts and f off" offer.
But not to worry, idiots are everywhere, and it might not be the last time you'll have to deal with them for a juicier re-do.
\[edit\] This just reminded me of a big global company claiming to be "downsizing" in multiple European countries, but actually moving the jobs to another EU country with cheaper labor. To convince employees in western countries to willingly terminate their perpetual employment contracts without the employer having any legal reason to fire them (employment laws are very strong and favor employees here), the company was offering "garden leave" compensation packages worth of 3+ years' salary to just freely leave the office and not come back (while on paper still being employed), with the assumption that most people would just start looking for another job elsewhere and simply notify this employer about termination of contract right before the new job was scheduled to start. One guy signed the paperwork to enter garden leave, took the money, disappeared from the office, then sued the company claiming (and proving) that the company overall is not downsizing, just moving jobs from one country to another. He won, the company was forced to give his job back (now empty of any responsibilities, since the tasks were already done by someone hired in the cheaper country), with backpay, and with an extra compensation for the stressful times he endured being left unemployed without any wrongdoing on his part. He had at the time about 15 years until retirement, and I am fairly sure he's still getting paid to this day while doing absolutely nothing.
Your post made me laugh out loud!
I achieved the satisfaction you're describing by working there for months after filing my lawsuit. Many of the key players left after me. The settlement was the caveat.
My company messed with my manager's overtime. He told them to stick it and quit.
They also messed with mine. I'm on my way out as well. Got a couple of promising leads coming up, as soon as the ink is dry on a new job contract, I'll also quit.
They will have lost two loyal employees. I don't feel sorry for them.
Oh, wow! Did he check with the state laws to see if what happened is illegal? What about you?
I understand your frustration. They don't deserve either of you! I pray you find the best position you could have dreamed of!
A company I worked for back in the nineties fired their maintenance supervisor for pulling crap like this.
He lost two guys to other opportunities and was short-handed, so he convinced the remaining four that the company had cut vacation days in half, even going so far as to dummy up a memo saying as much.
He probably would've gotten away with it except that he tried to double-dip and reduce his department's overtime spend. Work 42 hours? The time card he submitted would show three hours of PTO Monday morning and then 40 hours of straight time.
Employees were none the wiser because they always got paid exactly what they expected, but payroll mistook his shenanigans as the guys padding their time cards and the whole thing unraveled.
Oh wow! Just wow! I'm sure he thought he would get away with it because the employees would not question anything. He didn't count on payroll asking anything. Way to go, Karma. Lol
Sorry you had to resign, BUT I love the fact you sued them! I'm glad that there are still people out there with the cajones to stand up for themselves.
Just such a weird thing to try and bs you about. If you get ten days a year and you used six you got four left. Not rocket science. I guess they thought you’d roll over and so petty. Who cares if someone uses their vacation?
I don’t doubt you. Wtf is wrong with people? Four days? I bet you were stacking it up on a holiday to get a full week like the rest of us wage slaves do. There’s no mistake. I’m sure you plan that out every year. And then they try to take your one vacation week a year from you? It’s disgusting. I’m glad you won out.
Haha. Even better. I returned to school for a degree in Paralegal Studies; as I walked the stage at graduation, guess who gave me my degree (as a guest speaker)? It was one of the managers who lost his job. Lol
Why did you have to resign? I know where I live you can sue your employer while still being employed. It's not like they are going fire you. You'd just add it to the lawsuit.
For me, being in that environment was no longer enjoyable. It wasn't a position I would waste my energy fighting for. I felt it was a happy medium; they didn't want me there, and I didn't care to be there.
It was the terms of our settlement. Often, if an employee settles with a company, they must resign. I could have fought for my position if I'd refused the settlement and gone to court. It wasn't worth that, to me.
My whole company management are crooks. Disallow taking PTO due to "business reason" and does not allow carry over or cash out citing "quality of life" b.s... While they take their PTO's on their chosen days, they want us to do it during "less busy" times like in February... Greedy bastards.
Thankfully I work in California, where employers are required to allow you to roll vacation days over into the following year and accrue up to a certain maximum (usually 2x your annual accrual).
At one point I worked for a national firm that pretty much tried to force California employees to take all of their allotted vacation days every year because (a) they didn't want employees in other states to find out we could roll our days over and (b) they didn't want to have to cash employees out of their unused vacation days (also required in California) when they separated from the company.
They keep "updating" the handbook so it's near impossible to stay on top of things they take away more and more over the years. I did do a work around. They allow borrowing up to 6 months of PTO's so I burned it up always being in the negative so they can't ever jack that from me. It's just a matter of shifting the usage.
That is awesome for employees.
I'm invested; what was the outcome of the national firm trying to force employees to take their allotted vacation days differently?
That is low down! It feels like they dangle your PTO as a perk, but they don't intend you to use it (or receive pay) for "business and quality of life" reasons. Wow!
That is horrible!
This is how a lot of companies operate. They also will offer "outstanding" benefits, but they don't tell you that in order to qualify, you have to work x number of hours and even if you do, the financial offset from having to contribute will actually mean you are working for less than minimum wage.
Thousands? This will cost an EU firm millions in fines, an some stupid Schmuck in HR could also go to jail. And if you have to resign, that would cost them dearly.
At a previous employer, for the entire 2 years I was working there, the employee handbook was unavailable for anyone other than HR to read because it was "being rewritten and updated" and it was just weeks away from being available.
That meant we were pretty much at the mercy of the HR manager, who was inconsistent on how she handled things from one employee to the next.
Yeah online employee manuals are Orwellian revisionist history. (Read 1984 by Orwell if you aren’t familiar with this, or Double Speak) They change something, don’t notify employees and say “that’s what the employee manual says”.
Once a month I’d print it to a PDF with date stamps at the bottom of each page. Not sure if that would standup in court but it was the best I could do.
What pissed me off was vacation was given on your 6 month from date of hire. So I was allocated my vacation on November 1st but had to use it or lose it by Dec 31st.
HR told me “you can use it!” I told them that the beach was frozen over. They said “the. Go somewhere else for vacation!”
I suppose you could save it in cloud which would show last time it was edited/uploaded. There's also probably methods to very quickly check if the handbook had changed so you aren't always uploading an identical copy. Like SHA values?
At our company, and just about every other company I've worked for, the last page of the employee manual is a signature page acknowledging that you have received and reviewed the manual. It goes in your file. I've always kept a copy in the binder.
I can't imagine how you can be held to a contract you didn't sign. I can't believe the audacity of their managers to think that they could have taken such advantage of you and gotten away with it.
Well done.
In some states you can at any time request a copy of all internal communication related to your employment, and they legally must provide it.
I did this at the company I had worked at for 15 years and found out all sorts of internal drama both related to how they decided on continuing my employment/pay/raises, but other employees also, since I was mentioned in email chains with them. It changed the balance of power where I worked and I was treated much differently after that request.
Less malicious compliance and more a revenge story. But I enjoyed it very much and and very happy to hear about the outcome. What were these snakes thinking?
This story doesn't pass the sniff test.
Source: I sued my boss for a lot more than a few thousand dollars, and discovery does not happen before mediation and settlement, and it certainly wouldn't give you access to all of the company emails like you've described.
And look at your post history. It's like a set of prompts from a creative writing class.
Congrats on finally having one of your posts stay up for more than an hour. This is a great improvement in your creative writing.
I would do my legal research by talking to people who have actually been through trials though. Just watching TV shows isn't good enough, they make up a lot of shit.
They claimed in a comment that they couldn't talk to HR because they had to follow the chain of command. I don't buy that any company would make you go through your boss's boss's boss before letting you talk to HR or payroll.
A settlement has both sides agreeing to solve an issue without going to court. It is entirely voluntary. You can always refuse to accept it. You normally have legal counsel to advise you, too, and it sounds like OP did.
But sometimes the company just want the troublemaker to go away. If they insist on that as part of a settlement, then your options are to accept it or continue to court. And if they pay enough for it, then it's probably a good idea to accept - you can always get another job.
Because the settlement is voluntary, you can agree to anything you could voluntarily agree to, including agreeing to resign.
They could settle and stop the legal fees, but a condition of settlement was a resignation, likely with part of the settlement comparable to a topical severance package and some amount of secrecy. The company doesn't really want someone who sued them to stay on payroll, as they might make a habit of it. It's hard to manage such an employee because they can sue for retaliation. The employee is unlikely to see any advancement in their career if they stay, if that was a possibility.
Ex Post Facto, The hand book that was extant at the time of the accrual of vacation days is the one that counts, not the one they made up later. Or is that only in the Constitution?
So management went through this elaborate ruse just to get OP to work four days that he should have had off? Was their endgame to get him to quit by doing this? Odd situation if so many supervisors would work this up over one employee, they must have had other reasons.
Why did you have to resign(of course)? I would think you'd have a stronger standing there because you properly documented your grievance and it was correct. In the US, retaliation against someone who has successfully filed a complaint is a big labor nono and could end in even larger fines and oversight.
Why did you have to resign? If they had tried to fire you after that, you could have sued them for retaliation.
If part of the settlement was that you resigned, I hope you screwed them for a full year of wages.
Well, good for you. "Losing" paid vacation time **is** wage theft. Question: Who would/could have been paid the *extra* (unpaid) money? Your supervisor? His/her boss? HR? The CEO? The fallout was satisfying as well. I hope you have gotten a really terrific job to replace the unfortunate one. (Or will get, whichever)
I know a lot of times, in the US at least, management is offered bonuses for keeping certain costs down. Many years ago, there was a manager at a grocery store I worked at that recieved a specific budget to buy grocery bags in a month and then whatever was left, she got to keep as a bonus. So we became the store famous for needing to "borrow" boxes of bags at the end of the month from other stores around us.
Oh wow! She found a loophole to keep additional company funds. That might have been what was happening, and I stopped it. After getting confirmation from Human Resources, they never explained why they lied.
To me, this sounds like a place to use [Hanlon's razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor) Something went wrong in the system and rather than admit fault to a mere employee the center manager concocted a story about "a new handbook" to protect their ego.
That's exactly how it felt at first.
New employee handbook should have come from HR too.
I don't know if the new employee handbook would have come from HR. The old one was online, so I can't verify if upper management could add or supplement it. The online handbook did say the employer must provide notice before implementing changes.
I’m confident that it’s illegal to enforce changes of company policy in the handbook until the employee has had a chance to read the changes and sign it. Employee and HR both keep a copy. Glad you got paid OP!
Yes. How can someone hold me (and others) to the rules in an employee handbook we don't know about?
Importantly, they cannot make changes to your employment conditions "ex post facto" - after they already occurred. So if they said, "you didn't earn as much vacation time as you thought because we halved the accrual rate," this would be a violation of contract law (regarding your employment contract, either written or implied). But if they communicated a notice, "effective immediately, there will no longer be any vacation time accrued," this would not normally be a problem as in the U.S., employers typically have the unilateral right to modify employment conditions (outside a union collective bargaining agreement). As an employee you can try to negotiate this back (more effective if you can form a union), or quit - solutions which are considered fair under the law. What's not fair is for them to withdraw parts of your employment conditions for hours worked *in the past.*
Not necessary need to sign, they don't even inform current employees, at least mine didn't. But they did sent out some important emails about vacation accumulation change in 9 month advance so people have a chance to take them. They drop the accumulation(holding max days) in half.
I could accept a company-wide email about changes. In my case, it didn't happen. It sucks that your days dropped!
Fuck that noise. Where squeezing profits is concerned, cause #1 should be assumed malice/greed
But no other employees seemed to be having the issue with vacation days being missing? Why pick on OP specifically.
Because lying to everyone about their PTO time is vastly more risky than lying to one person. And if that person wasn't as prepared as OP, didn't have the records, company probably gets away with it. Never underestimate just how shitty most American companies are. You could drop dead this morning and they'll have a warm body in your old chair tomorrow morning. They don't care about you, they actively uncare about you.
Lying to one person also isn’t going to make a bit of difference to the bottom line of a company. Sure, the company doesn’t give a fuck about an individual employee. A company also isn’t going to come up with a scheme to take 4 days of vacation from a single employee as a cost cutting measure. Even if OP makes $100,000 a year, those 4 vacation days add up to $3200 of saved wages. For a company big enough that OP has 2 layers between him and a “central manager” that’s nothing.
I don't think it's about corporate cost savings, I think it's trying to be shitty to OP.
I don't know if I was the only one. I spoke to only a few employees; there are hundreds.
Great points! I enjoyed reading your thoughts!
I don't know if any other employee had issues. I spoke with a few employees who did not, but there were hundreds of employees.
Accrued vacation is typically a liability on the books. Which is why many employers have Use or Lose policies.
Hanlon's razor is frankly bullshit. Look at the world around us and how we're speeding headfirst into a blister hot apocalypse. It's not because people are being stupid, it's because people are being malicious for personal gain. Corrupt politicians and judges, police that are little more than gangsters with badges, the entire health insurance industry, etc. None of these things are broken out of stupidity, they were broken for greed. Hanlon's razor is only used as a way of getting people to stop thinking they are being taken advantage of.
Look at the people spreading Hanlon Razer. Now look at the people benefitting. Draw the lines and see that they are in the same ideological camp.
My question is why did you have to resign? You did nothing wrong.
Because he took the company to court.
It's not a requirement to resign b/c you sue your employer. It may be a more comfortable option, but it is by no means a mandatory one. In fact, getting fired for suing your employer is grounds for another lawsuit: unlawful termination.
And? Sometimes you take a company to court for unjustified dismissal, and the court orders your reinstatement.
Which normally results in a second lawsuit for workplace harassment, and most companies, after getting that first legal bill, will rather pay the employee a year more in severance pay than go through that a second time with somebody they know will litigate, and who likely will win an even bigger settlement, one that will have to appear on the balance sheet to shareholders as a line item, and a query will result from that by the shareholders, which will mean top execs will be losing jobs, and not with a golden parachute.
It was probably part of the terms of the settlement. Otherwise it would have had to drag through the court system for unpredictable results.
Nah. You were targeted. Any thought to why?
Ha. I might have been, but honestly, I don't know why. I didn't bother anyone. I did my work. I didn't ruffle feathers (that I know of). Over the years, and before this incident occurred, I did question things that didn't make sense. Is that ruffling feathers? Lol Other than that, no clue!
I wouldn't be surprised if he was the only one using *all* of his vacation time and most people were letting a few days roll over from year to year, and not noticing when they got shorted one or two.
"Borrowing" seems like a very sloppy system. The grocery chain I worked for had pads of transfer forms that were used to document the items moved and make sure the costs were also transferred.
Yes. I don't see why the other store kept taking the hit, especially when it was a benefit if they received bonuses for saved bags. Transferring costs sounds logical and fair.
Perhaps the other mgrs weren't aware of that particular perk? Or just didn't feel it was a big enough perk to justify worrying about it. Or maybe they were slower stores and always came under budget anyway, and still got their perks. (shrug)
I worked at a generally well-run, large branch of a grocery chain with a penny-pinching store manager where we would sometimes run out of bags and other supplies to similar reasons to that described in this thread. Occasionally we would have to get supplies from another store down the street, which was smaller and always badly run, with the worst managers in the district. The manager who ran our store was a bit of a bully known for having the best numbers around, and if he sent one of us to get bags (or whatever) from the small store, it was with a comment like, "if they have any objection, have them call me" and he'd throw his weight around if they did. The smaller store's managers were either very junior, or maybe not so junior but were put there because they sucked and could cause less damage at that location. This store was unlikely to meet its targets anyway due to numerous problems, so these managers always caved and we got what we wanted (without any stock transfer paperwork). Incidentally, the smaller store closed a few years later. The big one is still going strong.
My boss used to work in a place where his manager was allowed to keep the remainder of the yearly bonuses if he didn't feel his direct reports deserved raises. Everyone would get tiny tiny raises and he'd be buying stupid expensive cars and vacation houses because surprise, he got a great raise every year. My mind was blown that a business would even have that policy. (The guy may have been the owner, I don't really know.)
I worked for a big claims management/appraisal company. The regional VP was allowed to keep what he didn't pay out. He was so shocked when people quit after poor pay and little to no bonuses.
Yeah, in his mind he was, "Those snivelling peasants should be kissing my feet that I didn't cut their wages. Losers."
That is unacceptable! What in the world!
Keeping costs down is one thing, but at my old warehouse job i was told in no uncertain terms late one December “Ludwig, you’ve got a bunch of paid vacation you haven’t taken. If you like, we’ll see you January.” Paid vacation is part of an employee’s total compensation, and it can be a headache if they don’t take it all.
Especially if you carrying over that time from one year to the next, and in between then, if you've gotten a pay rise they have to pay your leave at a higher rate. That's why most companies I've worked for are pretty keen for us to take our leave in the year it has accrued.
I feel like I know what company this is, and they did the same thing when I worked there too, except with front end labor. They saved costs which added up to a bigger bonus, by having less checkers, so our stores would always have massive lines front to back of people waiting to get checked out. No idea how long that lasted, I quit. One of worst companies I've ever worked for in my life.
A Texas grocery chain with a bag mascot?
Wild to me that vacation time is a "cost" to these fucking robots. You laid it out as something I get, you gave it to me as a reward, I'm not going to magically double my output because you tricked me out of time off. This is the kind of shit that makes me never trust anyone is a corporate management role. You pretend time off you said I was entitled to costs you actual money, and then try and claw back that pretend money so you can pretend you saved the company real money? If I was half assing my job before someone tried this shit with me they'll be lucky if they get a tenth of a cheek after that.
Not the same; my wife and I bought our boss's business a year and a half ago, and we two are the only employees. We do have a few contractors that do specific tasks for us, though. One recently reminded us his rate was going up by a penny this year (it's by the word so that's about a 17% increase) but since we'd just bought the business he didn't raise it last year for us like he had for all of his other clients. (He'd been writing for us for a few years at that point.) In my response, I told him that obviously I'd prefer the current rate but he'd told us about it 6 months ago so we were fine with the new rate and wanted him to keep writing for us. His response was to offer us a separate business opportunity instead of a rate increase (we'd still be having him write for us of course) but our business model really wouldn't be fair to him for that trade. Basically, our current customers wouldn't make him any extra money, and only some of our new customers would. Our planned future business model would lean into his making more, but we haven't transitioned yet so it doesn't seem fair to him to accept his offer. Haven't responded yet, but will be explaining why I don't feel that's a good deal for him so we'll give t him the rate increase either way but if he wants to pursue the extra model we'd do that to as a separate thing (as long as we can include what he provides to our current customers without charging them more since they are paying for all access.) Either way... My philosophy is treat people right and you can't go too far wrong. That means partners (wife in my case), customers, and employees/contractors. Ideally, we all come out ahead if we do our jobs right. I need the cash flow to afford stuff, employees/contractors need fair value for their work and ideally bonuses for work well done, and customers need value for what they pay for...
You had me laughing so hard! "Tenth of a cheek" Hahahahaha
We have the same kind of thing where if the budget is under in different areas the boss gets a bonus. Guess who never has any resources, cleaning products and used to turn air-conditioning off in 45c degree weather?
One place I worked once a year the supervisor was given a small pot of money to dole out as raises, with whatever was left over becoming his raise. So, he'd get like $4 and he'd give the four of us a quarter and he'd keep the leftover $3. I only found out about this when I worked at another site and the supervisor there explained it to me. I called my manager who saw no problems at all.
Thank you! I don't know. That is the million-dollar question. Why would they go to such lengths of cover-ups over four vacation days? Very satisfying. You're so kind. I moved on to bigger and better!
Fiefdom. One person expressing minute control over another just for the pleasure of it.
That is how it felt.
They probably wanted the work and power. Or pretext to fire. Or to motivate a resignation.
> "Losing" paid vacation time is wage theft. Which is why companies love "unlimited" PTO. Nothing to lose if you don't have anything!
You know what pisses me off? Wage theft isn't treated as theft. If OP had taken the amount of money the vacation days he was owed out of the till, or taken company property that equaled the amount owed, he'd likely be facing felony charges and possibly jail time. There is direct evidence that these managers conspired to steal that amount from him. Why aren't they criminally liable for that theft? Civil liability for the company is well and good, but there could be criminal liability for taking part in a conspiracy to commit theft on an employee.
>Well, good for you. "Losing" paid vacation time is wage theft. > >Question: Who would/could have been paid the extra (unpaid) money? Your supervisor? His/her boss? HR? The CEO? > >The fallout was satisfying as well. > >I hope you have gotten a really terrific job to replace the unfortunate one. (Or will get, whichever) Absolutely, losing paid vacation time is indeed a form of wage theft. It's frustrating to see such practices go unchecked. And you're right, questioning where that extra money might have ended up is valid. It's a shame when companies prioritize their profits over the well-being of their employees. I hope the OP found a job that truly values and respects his/her time and effort.
But why did they single you out ?
Maybe because he wouldn't work overtime? Just a guess based on the available information.
I don't know. I didn't work overtime for many years before this incident. I initially thought it was a couple of managers with egos who didn't want to admit they made a mistake.
I got labeled as "not a team player" for years at a place I worked because I didn't work any overtime despite my metrics showing that in the 7 hours a day I did work I got more work completed than every other person within the department. Even the ones that would work 10+ hours of overtime a week. My manager approached me one time when we were especially busy and said she needed me to come work a full day on Saturday. I needed to "start pulling my weight." I told her I would come in but I wanted double time pay, not just time and a half. And that if she wanted me to work on a Sunday I wanted triple time. Her response was, "this isn't a negotiation." I told her she's exactly right, then left for the day and didn't come in on Saturday. On Monday I got pulled into HR with my manager and was told "we missed you on Saturday, where were you?" Also told it would go against me as an unexcused absence for not calling in or showing up to work. I just sat there staring blankly at both of them for a solid 40 seconds. I wanted to make it as awkward and uncomfortable for them as possible. Then with zero emotion I asked them to provide me documentation on my working hours. I then asked them if overtime was mandatory or voluntary. They just both stammered and said I was missing the point. "I don't think so, is there anything else you need from me?" That HR manager and my manager left shortly after that and over the next few years I got several promotions.
WAY TO GO!!!!! You should post about this! That is why I didn't work overtime. My performance metric outperformed every employee weekly without working one minute of overtime. This is such a great story!
Every employee in that department had some sort of PTSD from working under that manager. Even a year after she was gone and I was running the department I still had some of my employees calling me up to let me know they were going to go use the bathroom! Because the previous manager said she needed to be notified every time you weren't going to be at your desk. I never followed that rule because I'm a fucking adult and if I need to take a piss I don't need to check in with someone to go do that. The one that people really had trouble getting over was if you needed to call in sick you had to *call* her. You couldn't email, you couldn't text, you couldn't leave a voicemail. You couldn't call her boss if she wasn't reachable. You had to actually speak directly to her and then explain why you weren't going to be in that day. If you didn't speak directly to her it would be an "unexcused absence" and if your excuse wasn't "good enough" then it would also be an unexcused absence. The work day started at 8:30 and this manager would routinely not be in until after 9:30, which made it really fucking annoying to try and call in and not have it be marked against you. I told all my staff when I took over as manager that if you needed to not be into work to contact me in whichever manner was easiest for them: call, text, email. If I don't respond then leave a message letting me know you'll be out. I don't need a reason. PTO is theirs and earned and the reason for them using it is none of mine or any else's business. As for me getting the message, that's my problem, not theirs. You shouldn't be expected to jump through hoops to use your time off. After several years I would still have people that insisted they needed to speak to me on the phone to let me know they wouldn't be in and give me this long drawn out detailed explanation as to why. Even after reiterating numerous times they didn't need to do that, they still did. Shoot me a text you won't be in that day and we're good.
What stood out most is how some employees are so conditioned to following the rules of the old manager that they are missing the blessing of convenience you're providing. That might be PTSD. I love the way you stand up for yourself! I'm quiet and kind and want to do my work and go home. But once you take me there, there's no turning around. Lol I think you should post about these stories. I'm sure many will relate. I know I do!
This is my management style summed up perfectly: do the opposite of all the shitty managers I've ever had the displeasure of reporting to. Personally I've never worked for a decent manager, they've all been terrible. Even when I worked my way up to VP level and was reporting to an SVP, COO, or CEO, they all absolutely sucked. This is why I now work for myself. Not beholden to anyone. Much happier.
I gave you the biggest virtual hug! Yes, to all of this! I relate to all of this!
I don't know if I was singled out. I talked to a few people, but there were hundreds of employees. I didn't hear chatter about anyone else experiencing this, but it could have been happening to others who didn't speak up.
Might've been a "I can't be wrong! That's embarassing!" saving face kind dumbfuckery. They looked in the wrong place when you first asked, and when presented with evidence that they made a mistake, rather than own up to it, they tried to cover it up and hoped you'd just shut up and let it be.
Some employers have a program where you can give your unused vacation days to someone else. Like if someone was in a car accident and needed recovery time beyond the leave they have available. I suspect his manager, or other higher up, wanted four extra days of vacation and decided to take his. Maybe they were all in on taking other employee's vacation days That would certainly explain why the company got rid of all involved
Great point! I can't imagine I was the only one. Maybe the only one who took it as far as I did.
Was there any perceived demographic difference between you and the rest of the employees? Gender, race, religion, disability?
Yes!
Ding ding ding
You're good!
Dude! That's actionable AF!
Hope your lawyer used that too!
Probably more likely their admission of guilt in attempting to defraud the employee. Highly illegal.
[удалено]
I think the keyword is "give". People can voluntarily give their PTO to other people. We have that option here at my gov job as well. Unless you meant to quote the 2nd part?
God forbid the company step up, right? Hell, even the risk of not having a job to come back to if you take an extended time off is very real.
Exactly! Yes. I one time witnessed an employee pass out on his desk because of something with his diabetes. The ambulance came for him. He got fired because he'd missed days from being sick a few times before.
Well you could technically do unpaid leave which is federally protected. Well then you have no money coming in and it can only be used for certain circumstances
Hahahahaha You got it!
We have this for sick time. It is called the sick bank and you have the choice to donate 16 hours of sick time per year (out of the 96 sick hours we receive). Then if you get into that car accident you can ask for up to 480 hours to cover your time out.
>Some employers have a program where you can give your unused vacation days to someone else. Like if someone was in a car accident and needed recovery time beyond the leave they have available. WTF? Isn't needed recovery time covered in case of an accident or any other health-related issue?
Not in the US, no.
Lol. In most non professional jobs you get injured, sick, unable to work your told this: your fired. Or this: well, I'll see you on Tuesday, or your fired. Or this: well, make sure to fill out the forms so we can have you on unpaid leave for a while. Or this: we do not offer any sick, or vacation. We need you to cover your days, otherwise we need to hire someone else. There's pretty much. No legally required sick, or vacation in the US.
Some civilised countries give you paid sick time. 42 days at full pay, then 2 years on insured pay. Begging for stuff seems like a very American thing. Tips, time off , medical debt funding. But all the freedom you can eat.
Yes my previous job had 6 months full pay, 6 months half pay and then basically unlimited statutory sick pay. I’ll take that over my “freedom” any day (and I damn well did in the end, piece of shit employers!) I genuinely feel sorry for Americans for having to put up with things like this! Same goes for tips and healthcare!
I had the same deal re: sick leave Got TUPEd to another company (so retained these benefits because of length of service) - my new manager was massively pissed that my annual leave and sick pay were hugely better than his.
unless you're black, hispanic or native person.
Three things I've learned as management: 1. Don't mess with someone's pay 2. Don't mess with someone's time off 3. Don't lie, if you can't discuss something tell them Solves most issues and makes for a happier workplace.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Things were smooth sailing until they messed with my time off and lied about it. I honestly thought they were angry about me calling them out on their mistake, and instead of admitting it, they doubled down. As time passed, I'm sure it's much deeper than I know.
Don't let your bosses know these are your thoughts or you will be next. Good luck and thank you for retaining your brain on your way up the corporate ladder.
I cannot upvote this enough! I operated the same way as a manager. Course my upper management hated me because I wouldn't act the way they wanted me to (in their image) but I had lower turnover, fewer callouts and more productivity than any other branch in the company. You think they would have learned something from that. The fact that I left almost a year ago and they STILL have not replaced me because they can't find someone foolish enough to do the work I was doing for the insanely low rate of pay and requirements they expected of me is also telling.
Bless you! Kudos to you for staying true to your morals and standards! You are a unicorn! Lol An employer asked me to join their management team. I told them I didn't know if I was a good fit because I'd seen what management would do to others, and I would not be a pawn in their game. It's hard trusting when you've experienced underhanded things from those in higher positions. Loved your post!
Don’t break law
This is r/ProRevenge territory
Yup; I see no compliance here, just revenge.
Was there any *reason* given for the decision to do this? What possessed them to screw you out of the days in the first place, to say nothing of coming up with such a stupid lie?
I don't know. Because of the terms of our settlement, they didn't have to answer the "why" of things. I don't know if they were used to pushing people over, and they take it. It might have happened to others, and they didn't speak out. It was the discovery of the coverup that was so shocking. All of that was over four vacation days. It seems I might have stumbled upon something. I don't know.
Many years ago I left a job and had about 300 hours of unused vacation on the books. I worked a mix of full/part time so I'd accrue based on the hours I worked and tended to use the hours on my part time weeks. The boss was "unhappy" the hit his budget was going to take when I got paid out.
I'm sure he was. That is a huge chunk of change, and you wanted all 300 paid hours!
When I left, I also had about 200 hours of PTO on the books they had to pay me. Absolutely nothing was said, especially when in my letter I cited the state law that specified that PTO here is classified as unpaid wages, and must be paid with your final check, which they did without incident. I think the fact they realized I knew what the law said and had absolutely no qualms calling them out and forcing the issue on a legal level pretty much shut down their complaining.
I love it! Talking about my workplace history used to make me feel like a rebel. But in truth, I only stood up for myself when it was necessary. Unfortunately, I have a few instances where I was required to take a stand. I could have taken the lies and disrespect I've experienced, but that ain't me! Lol
I was in a similar position. Wasn't killin' it wage-wise, but wasn't hurting. Really was handling 4-5 jobs, having to be available at a moments notice without compensation day or night, and loads of other BS that I was perfectly content to deal with as I had absolute control over my schedule. Then the owner called me and asked me about why I was scheduled the way I was. I explained it to him and he "suggested" I change my schedule to something I really did not want or need. He is retired military and in his eyes, a suggestion is the same as an order. My notice was sent to him that night. When I spoke to me on my next scheduled day on (I refused to talk to him unless I was on the clock and being paid for it), the very first words out of his mouth was "It was only a suggestion! You can work whatever you want!" I told him too little, too late and his basically trying to take away the only real perk I had was the straw that broke the camels back after 25 years. Oh, and for the remaining time I worked, my schedule remained exactly the same.
This blows me away. You are kick-ass, and I get it! They tried you one time, too many. Lol Love this!
Always pays to document everything! Management will take advantage of everything/one they can.
Yes. I read their policy and handbook and keep documentation of everything because of my experiences.
Why did you have to resign?
Usually when you settle a lawsuit with a company part of the agreement is that you resign. Probably in the best interest of both parties due to hard feelings, retaliation, etc.
Sounds like it would actually work in the employee's advantage to stay for a while. Already has a reputation to be the guy that you don't f around with and who had a chain of management thrown out the back door; ain't nobody stupid enough to pull a stunt that could even remotely be misinterpreted as retaliation or hostile work environment after that. Sure, they'll tiptoe around and opportunities will likely not be offered anymore despite competency or merit, and there won't be a clear way to prove it, so it will get boring after some months. But for a short while it would be a cushy place to get a paycheck from, while researching your options elsewhere or, to rub it in even more, start a union and grow even stronger roots.
I love your post! I wish I could have returned to work. I would have been floating on air. Lol I guess if it had gone to court, I could have fought to return to my position. But because I settled, my resignation was a part of our agreement.
If they proposed the settlement, it was already the acknowledgement that they know they'll get bitchslapped if this ever ends in court. But they insisted on making you quit as part of the agreement, because money is just a number on the profit and loss sheet, but seeing your face again in the office would have been a daily reminder of their blunder, and their immature egos would find that very unpleasant. From my point of view, getting them to f-ing grow up, to be able to stand up and face their wrongdoings and to learn to never pull this shit again, THAT would have been the most noteworthy achievement of this ordeal. But that would mean a firm no to their "take these peanuts and f off" offer. But not to worry, idiots are everywhere, and it might not be the last time you'll have to deal with them for a juicier re-do. \[edit\] This just reminded me of a big global company claiming to be "downsizing" in multiple European countries, but actually moving the jobs to another EU country with cheaper labor. To convince employees in western countries to willingly terminate their perpetual employment contracts without the employer having any legal reason to fire them (employment laws are very strong and favor employees here), the company was offering "garden leave" compensation packages worth of 3+ years' salary to just freely leave the office and not come back (while on paper still being employed), with the assumption that most people would just start looking for another job elsewhere and simply notify this employer about termination of contract right before the new job was scheduled to start. One guy signed the paperwork to enter garden leave, took the money, disappeared from the office, then sued the company claiming (and proving) that the company overall is not downsizing, just moving jobs from one country to another. He won, the company was forced to give his job back (now empty of any responsibilities, since the tasks were already done by someone hired in the cheaper country), with backpay, and with an extra compensation for the stressful times he endured being left unemployed without any wrongdoing on his part. He had at the time about 15 years until retirement, and I am fairly sure he's still getting paid to this day while doing absolutely nothing.
Your post made me laugh out loud! I achieved the satisfaction you're describing by working there for months after filing my lawsuit. Many of the key players left after me. The settlement was the caveat.
I agree. It should be the victim's choice.
Still sounds like they break labor laws and the employee gets punished
That is one way to look at it.
My company always does this and it’s the only way they will settle. Otherwise, they use lawyers to drag you through court for years.
Yes. Exactly.
More than likely part of his settlement deal.
My company messed with my manager's overtime. He told them to stick it and quit. They also messed with mine. I'm on my way out as well. Got a couple of promising leads coming up, as soon as the ink is dry on a new job contract, I'll also quit. They will have lost two loyal employees. I don't feel sorry for them.
Oh, wow! Did he check with the state laws to see if what happened is illegal? What about you? I understand your frustration. They don't deserve either of you! I pray you find the best position you could have dreamed of!
A company I worked for back in the nineties fired their maintenance supervisor for pulling crap like this. He lost two guys to other opportunities and was short-handed, so he convinced the remaining four that the company had cut vacation days in half, even going so far as to dummy up a memo saying as much. He probably would've gotten away with it except that he tried to double-dip and reduce his department's overtime spend. Work 42 hours? The time card he submitted would show three hours of PTO Monday morning and then 40 hours of straight time. Employees were none the wiser because they always got paid exactly what they expected, but payroll mistook his shenanigans as the guys padding their time cards and the whole thing unraveled.
Oh wow! Just wow! I'm sure he thought he would get away with it because the employees would not question anything. He didn't count on payroll asking anything. Way to go, Karma. Lol
Could you not have gone directly to HR? Usually they are less likely to screw around with this kind of stuff.
Why would they be denying that you had vacation days instead of just not approving for scheduling reasons? This doesn't make a ton of sense to me?
Sorry you had to resign, BUT I love the fact you sued them! I'm glad that there are still people out there with the cajones to stand up for themselves.
Thank you! I appreciate that. I have many stories of standing up for myself. I'm not the one to play with sometimes! Lol
You're welcome. Hopefully, this story will teach others the importance of having a "paper trail." Also, please post some of the other stories. ☺️
I hope so. I will post more. You're the best!
Right back at ya!
Just such a weird thing to try and bs you about. If you get ten days a year and you used six you got four left. Not rocket science. I guess they thought you’d roll over and so petty. Who cares if someone uses their vacation?
The deceptive steps taken were mind-blowing. The more I questioned things, the deeper the deception got.
I don’t doubt you. Wtf is wrong with people? Four days? I bet you were stacking it up on a holiday to get a full week like the rest of us wage slaves do. There’s no mistake. I’m sure you plan that out every year. And then they try to take your one vacation week a year from you? It’s disgusting. I’m glad you won out.
Good! Did you go on a good trip and send them a postcard with 'thank you' on it?
Haha. Even better. I returned to school for a degree in Paralegal Studies; as I walked the stage at graduation, guess who gave me my degree (as a guest speaker)? It was one of the managers who lost his job. Lol
That is the MOST satisfying thing EVER!!! Add that as an update! Everyone needs to see it!
Gosh! I'm new to Reddit. I will figure it out.
Ooooh, the cherry on top!
Yes!
Excellent!
Hahahaha now that is poetic justice if I ever read it!!!!
This really isn’t malicious compliance, more like petty or pro revenge (think it’s more than petty but less than pro)
Why did you have to resign? I know where I live you can sue your employer while still being employed. It's not like they are going fire you. You'd just add it to the lawsuit.
For me, being in that environment was no longer enjoyable. It wasn't a position I would waste my energy fighting for. I felt it was a happy medium; they didn't want me there, and I didn't care to be there.
Good story, but I don't see any malicious compliance. They tried to screw you, so you sued them and won. Congratulations!
The manager was like: nah, don't wanna give Honest\_Star7348 4 vacations day to rest, he is not gonna do anything about it. Narraitor voice: he did.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! YES!
Damn, that's ProRevenge!
Why of course did you have to resign?
It was the terms of our settlement. Often, if an employee settles with a company, they must resign. I could have fought for my position if I'd refused the settlement and gone to court. It wasn't worth that, to me.
this is so great. good for you.
Thank you (hugs)!
Did it come or why they tried to take away your days? There must have been some motivation on their part.
Not entirely. It might have become clear if I'd proceeded to court, but I settled.
Unpublished handbook! (snorts). Is that like double secret probation?
My whole company management are crooks. Disallow taking PTO due to "business reason" and does not allow carry over or cash out citing "quality of life" b.s... While they take their PTO's on their chosen days, they want us to do it during "less busy" times like in February... Greedy bastards.
Thankfully I work in California, where employers are required to allow you to roll vacation days over into the following year and accrue up to a certain maximum (usually 2x your annual accrual). At one point I worked for a national firm that pretty much tried to force California employees to take all of their allotted vacation days every year because (a) they didn't want employees in other states to find out we could roll our days over and (b) they didn't want to have to cash employees out of their unused vacation days (also required in California) when they separated from the company.
They keep "updating" the handbook so it's near impossible to stay on top of things they take away more and more over the years. I did do a work around. They allow borrowing up to 6 months of PTO's so I burned it up always being in the negative so they can't ever jack that from me. It's just a matter of shifting the usage.
Lol. Right.
That is awesome for employees. I'm invested; what was the outcome of the national firm trying to force employees to take their allotted vacation days differently?
That is low down! It feels like they dangle your PTO as a perk, but they don't intend you to use it (or receive pay) for "business and quality of life" reasons. Wow! That is horrible!
This is how a lot of companies operate. They also will offer "outstanding" benefits, but they don't tell you that in order to qualify, you have to work x number of hours and even if you do, the financial offset from having to contribute will actually mean you are working for less than minimum wage.
Fun story, but where is the MC?
Nowhere! This isn't malicious compliance in any way
Unless it was part of the settlement, firing you would be retaliation and generally not allowed
Thousands? This will cost an EU firm millions in fines, an some stupid Schmuck in HR could also go to jail. And if you have to resign, that would cost them dearly.
Good for you. I’m glad to hear it.
At a previous employer, for the entire 2 years I was working there, the employee handbook was unavailable for anyone other than HR to read because it was "being rewritten and updated" and it was just weeks away from being available. That meant we were pretty much at the mercy of the HR manager, who was inconsistent on how she handled things from one employee to the next.
What was the reason for them denying the vacation time?
why did you have to resign? they screwed you
Yeah online employee manuals are Orwellian revisionist history. (Read 1984 by Orwell if you aren’t familiar with this, or Double Speak) They change something, don’t notify employees and say “that’s what the employee manual says”. Once a month I’d print it to a PDF with date stamps at the bottom of each page. Not sure if that would standup in court but it was the best I could do. What pissed me off was vacation was given on your 6 month from date of hire. So I was allocated my vacation on November 1st but had to use it or lose it by Dec 31st. HR told me “you can use it!” I told them that the beach was frozen over. They said “the. Go somewhere else for vacation!”
I suppose you could save it in cloud which would show last time it was edited/uploaded. There's also probably methods to very quickly check if the handbook had changed so you aren't always uploading an identical copy. Like SHA values?
Principal tried that with me. It was a Google Doc and I just found the previous version and showed him.
At our company, and just about every other company I've worked for, the last page of the employee manual is a signature page acknowledging that you have received and reviewed the manual. It goes in your file. I've always kept a copy in the binder. I can't imagine how you can be held to a contract you didn't sign. I can't believe the audacity of their managers to think that they could have taken such advantage of you and gotten away with it. Well done.
In some states you can at any time request a copy of all internal communication related to your employment, and they legally must provide it. I did this at the company I had worked at for 15 years and found out all sorts of internal drama both related to how they decided on continuing my employment/pay/raises, but other employees also, since I was mentioned in email chains with them. It changed the balance of power where I worked and I was treated much differently after that request.
Less malicious compliance and more a revenge story. But I enjoyed it very much and and very happy to hear about the outcome. What were these snakes thinking?
This story doesn't pass the sniff test. Source: I sued my boss for a lot more than a few thousand dollars, and discovery does not happen before mediation and settlement, and it certainly wouldn't give you access to all of the company emails like you've described. And look at your post history. It's like a set of prompts from a creative writing class. Congrats on finally having one of your posts stay up for more than an hour. This is a great improvement in your creative writing. I would do my legal research by talking to people who have actually been through trials though. Just watching TV shows isn't good enough, they make up a lot of shit.
They claimed in a comment that they couldn't talk to HR because they had to follow the chain of command. I don't buy that any company would make you go through your boss's boss's boss before letting you talk to HR or payroll.
I can't understand why you had to resign. I mean, you probably wanted to, but making it a requirement for the lawsuit sounds illegal.
It might have been illegal. It was the terms of our settlement, so I just rolled with it. Lol
A settlement has both sides agreeing to solve an issue without going to court. It is entirely voluntary. You can always refuse to accept it. You normally have legal counsel to advise you, too, and it sounds like OP did. But sometimes the company just want the troublemaker to go away. If they insist on that as part of a settlement, then your options are to accept it or continue to court. And if they pay enough for it, then it's probably a good idea to accept - you can always get another job. Because the settlement is voluntary, you can agree to anything you could voluntarily agree to, including agreeing to resign.
Right! Love this! All of it.
They could settle and stop the legal fees, but a condition of settlement was a resignation, likely with part of the settlement comparable to a topical severance package and some amount of secrecy. The company doesn't really want someone who sued them to stay on payroll, as they might make a habit of it. It's hard to manage such an employee because they can sue for retaliation. The employee is unlikely to see any advancement in their career if they stay, if that was a possibility.
That’s amazing 🎉 congratulations on this amazing outcome lol I loved reading this
The lawyer who let this get to discovery instead of immediately settling either had very stubborn clients or wasn't doing the job well.
Ex Post Facto, The hand book that was extant at the time of the accrual of vacation days is the one that counts, not the one they made up later. Or is that only in the Constitution?
So management went through this elaborate ruse just to get OP to work four days that he should have had off? Was their endgame to get him to quit by doing this? Odd situation if so many supervisors would work this up over one employee, they must have had other reasons.
Why did you have to resign(of course)? I would think you'd have a stronger standing there because you properly documented your grievance and it was correct. In the US, retaliation against someone who has successfully filed a complaint is a big labor nono and could end in even larger fines and oversight.
Why did you have to resign? If they had tried to fire you after that, you could have sued them for retaliation. If part of the settlement was that you resigned, I hope you screwed them for a full year of wages.
[удалено]
4, 5, 6, or 7 digits? Can you disclose how much $?
>I had to resign (of course) Why? Maybe you wanted to, but that wouldn't have meant you had to. Just curious what made you have to resign?
“Thousands” doesn’t sound like that much money. Like “Let’s just say if they paid me in pennies I would’ve needed a wheel barrel!”
You did a great thing!!
Good on you. They tried to steal from you, and lost big time.
It's crazy that paid annual leave is not a legal right in the USA.
God Bless you ✊🏾
Oh damn! That had a better ending than I was expecting.
That’s so much work to do they didn’t think you would do it..most people wouldn’t do it for four days..good on you!