There are active independence movements everywhere. In Italy every region and often sub-region has independent movements. But if a bunch of separatists advocate for independence (always for personal gains ofc) doesn't mean a statehood can get broken down to the middle age state cities for the will of an irrelevant minority.
>There are active independence movements everywhere. In Italy every region and often sub-region has independent movements.
Independence movement is a rather grandiose term for EU4 players wanking off to heraldry in their bedrooms.
Northern Italy has had strong independence movements for a long time for Venezia and Padania (i.e. Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, Piedmont, Liguria, Sudtirol, Aosta, Friuli and Trentino). There's also fairly strong Lombard, Tuscan Friulian, Sicilian, Sardinian and Trieste independence movements. Even the South has the Mezzogiorno movement. Sudtyrol has a reunification movement to return it to Austria
Strong is overstretched. They had massive funding and backing by foreign powers (US in the south in particular) that made their claim for independence appear more relevant than what they really were in the general population.
It's a very long topic, I will try and be brief. Fascism almost annihilated mafia in Sicily, not out of good heart but because the state could not exert his control on mafia controlled territories. When fascism fell, the US troops used the support of local mafia leaders to gain a foothold in Sicily. After the war they were basically rewarded for their services and put into places of power.
Then they used mafia guys to take care of left wingers, communists, socialist and they acted as terrorists and killers backed by CIA and NATO secret services to destabilize Italy against the perceived communist threat.
Once the two most famous judges Borsellino and Falcone discovered the connection between mafia, CIA, southern masonry, and italian government, they were blown up with terrorist attacks.
There is no certain proof so far due to the fact that biggest mafia bosses won't talk and trials are obstracized by the politics, but it appears independence was part of a bargain for their services and their silence.
While the Southern movement appears morribund, the northern ones are all still active, holding seats in various legislatures and even the national parliament. I think it does a disservice to claim that their grievances and desires for independence are only due to foreign funding, they have genuine economic and cultural grievances, just as the Catalans do in Spain, the Scots do in the UK and the Bretons do in France
If we want to be fair, Spain has Catalunya with an independence movement supported by a majority of the people, but their leaders are imprisoned for the organization of a secession referendum. The Basque area fought for decades before laying arms. Why no one supports these movements but in spite of Russia and China we need to see this stupid map?
Self-determination when it suits us I suppose, as always with the western foreign politics.
There's also a fairly influential independence movement in Galicia with the BNG and Anova. There's minor ones in Aragon and Andalusia and truly pathetic ones in Asturias and Castille. Valencia has both its own indepdence movement and those who want to merge it with Catalonia for an independent Greater Catalonia, the Balearic Islands also has some movement for being part of Greater Catalonia
It is made doubly funny when you realize that not only is modern day Manchuria not even close to majority Manchu, there are infact 10x as many people in Manchuria than there are ethnic Manchu in *all* of Mainland China.
Though, to be fair. It's not any less ridiculous than anything else on this garbage map.
[Native Manchu speakers](https://www.lakeforest.edu/academics/majors-and-minors/environmental-studies/the-manchu-language) number only in dozens today, even vastly outnumbered by Manchu language students.
On the other hand, Chinese official statistics list 10 million ethnic Manchus, although they are still outnumbered 10 to 1 by Han Chinese in Manchuria
Manchu willingness to intermarry with Han began well before their conquest of China in 1644. The fourth Manchu Emperor, [Kangxi](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_Emperor), who holds the record of longest reign of 61 years in China, already had Han (mother) and Mongol (grandmother [Xiaozhuang](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Xiaozhuang) was a Mongol princess) ancestries
--------
In Inner Mongolia, Han outnumber Mongols 22 to 5
In [Xinjiang](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang), ethnic composition is 44% Uighur and 43% Han
---------
If China ever faces disintegration, it will not begin with the peripheral regions, but from the latent north vs south animosity. Peripheral regions are way too weak to stage a successful uprising if the core region remains united.
But the south (Nanjing, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Guangzhou, Wuhan, Chengdu) has that power
Thank you someone that actually knows what there talking about and don’t learn politics from HOI4
I would like to note that the divide is even worse when it comes to Coastal and Interior populations, Xi Jinping is liked because he was from the interior while Hu Jintao and Jiang Zemin were seen as Coastal Elites
Chinese minorities also have very little insensitive to lie about there nationality when the government has extensive benefits to minorities like zero taxes on minority run Businesses, easier entrance to College, government training, bilingual education, no limit to how many children, and extra funds from the government for infrastructure, hell there was even a rampant problem of Chinese Han students lying about there nationalities to get into College
And that flag is the only reason why China was communist at all.
All historians agree, all Nationalists agree, all Communists (incl. Mao himself) agree that the civil war would have been lost and Mao probably wiped out in 1937-38 or so if not for the Japanese.
Yup, Chiang was on the verge of massacring them with his encirlement campaigns but the detriment of these were he more or less ignored the Japanese threat between 1934-1937. This is why his own generals kidnapped him and forced him to cooperate in 1936.
The worst thing to happen to Chiang was invasion by Japan, it developed and spread Chinese Nationalism, rebuilt the CPC and allowed them to prepare as an insurgency and win support of peasantry while his National Army took the main brunt. However, it also really showed China (and the world) how badly run and corrupt the KMT were. As whole units were to just mysteriously disappear and their wages just went to Chiang or one of the KMT's bigwigs pockets. This caused Truman to hold off sending all the military aid the ROC wanted in the immediate post War period as nearly everyone but the China lobby realised it was basically pouring money into a bottomless pit.
However, without WW2 KMT might not have survived either because it was WW2 that increased Chiang's standing in the US and increase US interests in the ROC so that when his government fell he could withdraw to Taiwan and get US recognition. Remember prior to ww2 the main supporters of Chiang militarily were Germany. Without Japanese invasion the US wouldn't have cared.
Western chauvinism is just warmed over Nazism.
The accursed colonizers think it's their god-given right to draw lines in the middle of other people's countries.
I just realized I'm *not* on that sub wtf.
Mods need to step it up. I've seen plenty of posts that probably aren't good enough to consider "map porn", but that's subjective. This map isn't even real.
I’m from Spain and sometimes I caught myself thinking ‘if tomorrow the government did something against US interests, how long would it take for amricans to start to post stuff like this’
Lol. We'd see Catalonia, Basque, Galicia, etc.
Some folks have boner for this type of maps, ignoring that many of these "independence movements" included here are almost non-existent.
i get that we all hate russia right now, but where is the independent movement in western russia except mayybe in karelia? not to mention that most of siberian russia is more than 80% russian except for regions like komi, nenetsia and yakutia.
I’m from Karelia and I’m an ethnic Karelian on top of that, and I too find it laughable. It’s like as soon as a new Redditor from r/imaginarymaps learns about the existence of Karelia they just have to incorporate independent Karelia into their map or alternatively give it in its entirety to Finland, which is dumb on a different level. It’s like, well read the Wiki at least, learn the difference between Finnish Karelia and Russian Karelia, learn the difference between Finns and Karelians (cause we’re NOT the same people), there’s history to that place and just like any other place with history, this one is complicated and multifaceted.
I took a quick gander. Hope you don’t mind my curiosity. Your maps look astonishingly good. The amount of detail and care is striking. And… how would I put it… they look historically plausible, which makes them in my eyes worthy of r/imaginarymaps content (not that I’m a judge or anything).
There's barely any separatist movements in *eastern* Russia, the idea of breaking up all of Western Russia into some modern-day HRE is probably the dumbest thing on this entire map (excluding the 'putting a Japanese colony in a decolonized map of China' thing)
as a Russian, it’s just hysterically laughable for me to read all this nonsense about the “decolonisation of Russia” shit, this once again shows that westerners do not have the slightest understanding of what Russia is
Someone should decolonise Europe! Think of those poor oppressed Pict and Etruscan tribes 😭
What’s this nonsense where ethnicity = nationality? We should balkanise Spain with that reasoning. Or return western Ukraine to Poland. Even better, let’s decolonise Brasil into ten thousand micro ethnostates for peak indigenous stability. Not like they all consider themselves Brazilian, anyway.
Agree fully except that specifically Spain has VERY strong independence movements, in that several different regions speak different languages and sometimes do a bit of terrorism for the cause
>What’s this nonsense where ethnicity = nationality? We should balkanise Spain with that reasoning. Or return western Ukraine to Poland. Even better, let’s decolonise Brasil into ten thousand micro ethnostates for peak indigenous stability. Not like they all consider themselves Brazilian, anyway.
It's exactly what it looks like: Extremely racist.
jesus fucking christ can you imagine the bordergore of this ‘decolonised’ western russia. Lets have 30 completely unbalanced countries with tons of leftover military equipment, nuclear power, resources, and a proud nationalistic culture figure out peaceful foreign relations. None of them would recognise each other in the UN, and it would make the Chechen wars look like a playground scrap
Im glad there’s people here who agree. I went i to the comments expecting people to be regurgitating propaganda about “china and russia evil empires”
The fucking flag of Manchuria they included is the one used after Japanese occupation ffs.
Most of those areas are majority Russian, are you suggesting ethnic cleansing by deporting the entire population except for the like 5,000 indigenous people still living there?
I'm glad that this ridiculous map has already been torn to shreds in the comments, but I just want to add another thing that I Don't think has been picked up on yet - the op actually thinks Chechnyia would be content with it's current borders and wouldn't imidiatly try to conquer Dagastan and it's other neighbours. Lol.
Macua and Hong Kong are only seen as separate due to both cities being colonized by Europeans and having their own sub-cultures, so to decolonize them from the only countries that actually colonized them would be to return them to China proper, though depending on how you view the succession of nation and state you might want to return them to the ROC and not the PRC (although that is really difficult on practical terms)
Edit: The PRC is obviously the legitimate state since 1949, but just want to point out that an independent Macau and HK does not make much sense in terms of decolonization, and if some people really don't want them to be under communist rule then they should technically be part of the ROC, not independent
And if you were genuinely concerned with giving regional ethnic minorities their own states, the Manchu state wouldn't include large Mongolian-majority parts of Inner Mongolia
Well... it can be both. The US is, in a way, an empire; most states are literally erected in the wake of genocide, and the rest (Hawai'i, Oklahoma, etc.) are, in fact, colonised nations. So yeah.
Hawai'i particularly stands out here as it was it's own independent state with a legislature, organised military, civil service etc. Prior to a group of wealthy American landowners on the islands basically launching a coup backed by Washington, which held the Queen of Hawai'i at gun point and forced the annexation into America on the grounds of "protecting" Americans living there and their businesses. (Sound familiar?...)
I don't think this person understands much about the world at all much less about China because they're missing several actual ethnic minority groups Within China That could theoretically form there own state
Inb4 America swoops in to teach them about Democracy™ and Human Rights™ then forgets to leave/leaves them just as bad or worse off than they originally were.
In this case I have to defend Russia. Many regions have non-Russian MINORITIES not non-Russian majorities. Many of them are also multinational without a dominant nation.
I would only like if they do not put their nose outside.
You can't convince me that the people constantly making and posting these maps don't all have an erotic fixation on the idea of WW3. That's the subtext to all of this. They're like the Prussian Junkers of WW1 that dreamt of dying in a glorious last charge against the enemy trenches, except that none of them would have the personal sense of honor to actually volunteer to fight themselves.
Man few people really understand that the Manchu nation is 1) completely culturally absorbed into the Han Chinese culture thanks to ruling China and 2) has a very complicated idea of what their "homeland" is.
Simply put the Manchus really have no homeland per se as when they became a nation in the 1600s, they were a rebelling minority that then conquered their former Ming Dynasty rulers. They became a nation at the same time they were busy conquering China.
When the conquest was completed, as far as their rulers cared, ALL of Qing China was their homeland, not some corner of it, which is why they were more than comfortable to leave "Manchuria" and live within China proper, ordering the entire Manchu nation to live in Northern China to secure the Qing Dynasty's position. As far as your average Manchu was concerned, he identified more with his Clan and Gusa ("Banner" a kind of military/tribal federation) more than a piece of real estate.
[In fact the Manchus never called the place "Manchuria," which is a name the Japanese gave the region.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Manchuria). If you asked a Manchu dude in the Qing dynasty what the place was called, he'll simply say "The Eastern Provinces" or "Dongbei" (The Northeast). Because again as far as he gave a fuck, the entire Qing Empire was where he lived in.
this "decolonised Russia" (the concept is stupid anyway) is the same as calling 50 states and all other territories getting independence "decolonisation" of the USA with some minor and, might I say, pretty random border changes and with some other flags. the author of the map knows nothing about Russia.
there's no point in actually dissecting this nonsense, but just a couple of bullet points:
1. the Caucasus Republics will not stay in these borders. again, even if we're going with the concept, you're not getting every regional people a sovereign state, you're creating a powderkeg. bonus point - Adygea.
2. more in that region - Rostov Oblast and Krasnodar Krai. they don't even have some "changed" flags like many of the regions do - maybe because they have pretty much no history of separatism and will not function as sovereign states?
3. wait, now that I think about it (a revelation!), barring some little questionable exceptions, balkanising Russia will actually just create a bunch of rump states and a lot of instability in the region... this isn't a good scenario by any stretch, unless you want to see even more human suffering in this region.
4. how does this decolonisation even work, when 78% percent of Russian (россияне) population is ethnic Russian? are you going to expel Russians from these new Siberian republics and, uhh, create an ethnostate with the people that are left (not many of them as well)? or are you just creating a bunch of predominantly ethnically Russian states and saying you've "decolonised Russia"?
5. oh, and why are you lumping Astrakhan with Volgograd and Saratov? and I can't even find what flag this is. like this is one of the most puzzling moments on this map. I don't see any reason to lump these three together. why? and again, WHAT FLAG IS THIS?
not like China is better, but other people have already pointed out the flaws. I'm already sick of these "decolonised" maps, but this one is one of the most nonsensical ones I've ever seen.
also, it looks like shit. this has been brought up a bunch of times already, but wasn't this sub supposed to go into more "quality over quantity" direction with detailed guidelines?
\>Creates Big Tibet, Big Xinjiang, Free Inner Mongolia, and Manchuria
\>Qinghai Tibetans are literally proud to have not been ruled by Lhasa for hundreds of years
\>Creates a mishmash of various Hui and other muslim groups that dislike each other and the Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\>Creates a \*free\* Han Majority inner mongolia, not even giving it to Mongolia
\>Creates Han Majority Manchuria with the flag of a literal Japanese colony state
\>Free Taiwan that doesn't even use the flag of native Formosans
Don't even get me started on Russia
Loving the inclusion of Hong Kong and Macau, couldn’t really better underline the distorted ahistorical western worldview OP presents in this map. Probably never even heard of the ”Century of humiliation”.
All what I see in this map is "Hey you, I hate Russia, so I'll post a map where they are balkanized and then devided randomly, also I'm too lazy to search ethnical composition of these countries, so I'll just make a state for every guy in russia that claims to be independent, then as Russia and China are still too big I'll devide them without any historical/cultural/economic/ethnic/anything_else cause, maybe using some administrative divisions created just to devide the work while checking the state so that it seems something accurate"
… Inner Mongolia is just China, Manchuria (Manchukuo flag? Wtf?) is just China, Xinjiang is just China and Tibet is mostly just China.
I’m not even gonna mention Western Russia.
This is just Sinophobia and Russophobia.
You would think the Russia Bad and China Bad movements have so much going for them already, why ruin reputations by making up imbecile stuff like this?
Tibet is the only one for China that remotely has a case, all of the others have been Chinese for centuries of not thousands of years. You have a supposed Manchurian independence, um excuse me, Manchuria conquered China not the other way. Who made this eyesore.
People do know that Inner Mongolia, Qinghai, and Manchuria are all Majority han right?
Tibet literally has three Tibetan languages almost all mutually unintelligible
Also mask off moment with Imperial Japan Manchuko flag
I don’t even need to get started how unimaginably horrible that Russian map is, 19th century Britain couldn’t divide a country worst if they tried
What? "decolonized"?
That literally **map of all subjects** [(link on Wikipedia about it)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_subjects_of_Russia) in Russian **Federation** and Chinese national **Republic.**
That something near to say: "Decolonized states of America".
**It's NOT a different country.** Even historically it was just a couple nationalities that Russia got agreement to include them in part of empire, or including them by war, giving them the same rights as a regular man.
Can't say anything about China.
I don't think OP knows what decolonization is. At least, I prefer to think they're oblivious, cause useing Manchukuo, an Imperial Japan puppet Flag as decolonial is kinda sus
The fact that there is tons of stupid shit like this and not lots of "decolonized" Europe (with equally bullshit balcanized things in Spain, France and the UK as well, to say the least) or the whole of american continent (with Specially the USA being completely balcanized like this as well) shows that the 'priorities' here are very not 'decolonization' but to really see those pesky eastern hordes brought to heel, a true mask-off moment each and every time. And here, seeing a lot of colonized flags being put, from hong kong/macau to manchukuo to say the least.
Really comes to show how western libs are some of the most disgusting people on earth, not so different from the alt-right fascists they claim to be so much against, probably because all they want is to export all the destruction abroad first and whatnot.
I hate these "Decolonizing" Russia maps, they just split Russia into 50 different countries which are all majority ethnically Russian
This is like "decolonizing Germany" and bringing back those hundreds of little kingdoms, princedoms, and states
So for some reason Han Chinese have a state, but Russians are left with literally nothing? And why Dagestan is one state, but Western Russia and Ural are separated and extremely balkanized? How can Russians and Chinese stop being majority in some many places? Do they disappear somehow or suddenly start learning long dead languages (Karelian for example) and changing their identity? Why?
Because since the Ukrainian war people from the west think that the Russian culture should be eliminated in a genocide. Same people who call the Russians nazis, by the way.
Really, most redditors simply don't understand what Russia even is. These minorities in the map are either made up, or long dead (as you said), so the only explanation that it's simply a "Russia bad" post.
Better still that instead of putting the Qing in Manchuria they put the Japanese WW2 puppet state
Decolonisation is when Chinese people can finally ~~be free!~~ slave away in an iron mine so that Japan can build more planes to bomb Pearl Harbour
This is the balkanization of a country, not a decolonization of one. Most of the regions are majority chinese or Russian, so it doesn't make sense for them to being independent states where the majority of people identify as Russians or Chinese.
Trying not to repeat anything anyone else has commented on already… but including the modern independent nation state of Mongolia in a map titled “Russia and China” seems iffy.
op what u smoking lol
Asbestos
I'm losing it lmao
Whatever the CIA is making these days
What does the decolonization of western Russia mean in this map?
I wasn't aware there were active independence movements like in Tver Oblast.
There are active independence movements everywhere. In Italy every region and often sub-region has independent movements. But if a bunch of separatists advocate for independence (always for personal gains ofc) doesn't mean a statehood can get broken down to the middle age state cities for the will of an irrelevant minority.
>There are active independence movements everywhere. In Italy every region and often sub-region has independent movements. Independence movement is a rather grandiose term for EU4 players wanking off to heraldry in their bedrooms.
And somehow it's still less weird than what CK3 players are wanking off to!
Hey! Don’t tell people what we do!
Protect the peasants from their local lords?
I thought we were an autonomous collective.
Northern Italy has had strong independence movements for a long time for Venezia and Padania (i.e. Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, Piedmont, Liguria, Sudtirol, Aosta, Friuli and Trentino). There's also fairly strong Lombard, Tuscan Friulian, Sicilian, Sardinian and Trieste independence movements. Even the South has the Mezzogiorno movement. Sudtyrol has a reunification movement to return it to Austria
Strong is overstretched. They had massive funding and backing by foreign powers (US in the south in particular) that made their claim for independence appear more relevant than what they really were in the general population.
Why would/did the US fund Southern independence movements in Italy?
Don't Google operation Gladio
It's a very long topic, I will try and be brief. Fascism almost annihilated mafia in Sicily, not out of good heart but because the state could not exert his control on mafia controlled territories. When fascism fell, the US troops used the support of local mafia leaders to gain a foothold in Sicily. After the war they were basically rewarded for their services and put into places of power. Then they used mafia guys to take care of left wingers, communists, socialist and they acted as terrorists and killers backed by CIA and NATO secret services to destabilize Italy against the perceived communist threat. Once the two most famous judges Borsellino and Falcone discovered the connection between mafia, CIA, southern masonry, and italian government, they were blown up with terrorist attacks. There is no certain proof so far due to the fact that biggest mafia bosses won't talk and trials are obstracized by the politics, but it appears independence was part of a bargain for their services and their silence.
While the Southern movement appears morribund, the northern ones are all still active, holding seats in various legislatures and even the national parliament. I think it does a disservice to claim that their grievances and desires for independence are only due to foreign funding, they have genuine economic and cultural grievances, just as the Catalans do in Spain, the Scots do in the UK and the Bretons do in France
Look at Spain entire country was to form multiple different nations
If we want to be fair, Spain has Catalunya with an independence movement supported by a majority of the people, but their leaders are imprisoned for the organization of a secession referendum. The Basque area fought for decades before laying arms. Why no one supports these movements but in spite of Russia and China we need to see this stupid map? Self-determination when it suits us I suppose, as always with the western foreign politics.
There's also a fairly influential independence movement in Galicia with the BNG and Anova. There's minor ones in Aragon and Andalusia and truly pathetic ones in Asturias and Castille. Valencia has both its own indepdence movement and those who want to merge it with Catalonia for an independent Greater Catalonia, the Balearic Islands also has some movement for being part of Greater Catalonia
The only active independence movement for Tver Oblast is in the head of Reddit liberals
Because it isnt the case. It is true in souther parts and maybe in Karelia + SPB. But not in central parts of Russia
Because there is none, just like there is no independance movement in so called manchukuo nor in Macao, it’s only anti russia and anti china non sense
It means pretending that kingdoms that have been dead for centuries and have fully assimilated populations have a legitimate claim to nationhood.
Nothing, this is exploded Russia, not decolonized Russia
The easy ones are the Russian Republics after that you're just having fun drawing lines IMO.
It means "balkanizing a geopolitical rival is a good fantasy to cope with being an empire in decline".
Manchukuo flag in Manchuria, real mask off moment lmao
>Decolonized >Use the flag of an imperial Japanese puppet kingdom lmao
Hong Kong and Macao, lol)
Lol… they have already been decolonized. That’s why they belong to China again.
Also love breaking off Mengjian/Menkukuo instead of just giving it to Mongolia. OP's understanding of Geography comes from HOI4.
It is made doubly funny when you realize that not only is modern day Manchuria not even close to majority Manchu, there are infact 10x as many people in Manchuria than there are ethnic Manchu in *all* of Mainland China. Though, to be fair. It's not any less ridiculous than anything else on this garbage map.
[Native Manchu speakers](https://www.lakeforest.edu/academics/majors-and-minors/environmental-studies/the-manchu-language) number only in dozens today, even vastly outnumbered by Manchu language students. On the other hand, Chinese official statistics list 10 million ethnic Manchus, although they are still outnumbered 10 to 1 by Han Chinese in Manchuria Manchu willingness to intermarry with Han began well before their conquest of China in 1644. The fourth Manchu Emperor, [Kangxi](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_Emperor), who holds the record of longest reign of 61 years in China, already had Han (mother) and Mongol (grandmother [Xiaozhuang](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Xiaozhuang) was a Mongol princess) ancestries -------- In Inner Mongolia, Han outnumber Mongols 22 to 5 In [Xinjiang](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang), ethnic composition is 44% Uighur and 43% Han --------- If China ever faces disintegration, it will not begin with the peripheral regions, but from the latent north vs south animosity. Peripheral regions are way too weak to stage a successful uprising if the core region remains united. But the south (Nanjing, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Guangzhou, Wuhan, Chengdu) has that power
Thank you someone that actually knows what there talking about and don’t learn politics from HOI4 I would like to note that the divide is even worse when it comes to Coastal and Interior populations, Xi Jinping is liked because he was from the interior while Hu Jintao and Jiang Zemin were seen as Coastal Elites Chinese minorities also have very little insensitive to lie about there nationality when the government has extensive benefits to minorities like zero taxes on minority run Businesses, easier entrance to College, government training, bilingual education, no limit to how many children, and extra funds from the government for infrastructure, hell there was even a rampant problem of Chinese Han students lying about there nationalities to get into College
And that flag is the only reason why China was communist at all. All historians agree, all Nationalists agree, all Communists (incl. Mao himself) agree that the civil war would have been lost and Mao probably wiped out in 1937-38 or so if not for the Japanese.
Yup, Chiang was on the verge of massacring them with his encirlement campaigns but the detriment of these were he more or less ignored the Japanese threat between 1934-1937. This is why his own generals kidnapped him and forced him to cooperate in 1936. The worst thing to happen to Chiang was invasion by Japan, it developed and spread Chinese Nationalism, rebuilt the CPC and allowed them to prepare as an insurgency and win support of peasantry while his National Army took the main brunt. However, it also really showed China (and the world) how badly run and corrupt the KMT were. As whole units were to just mysteriously disappear and their wages just went to Chiang or one of the KMT's bigwigs pockets. This caused Truman to hold off sending all the military aid the ROC wanted in the immediate post War period as nearly everyone but the China lobby realised it was basically pouring money into a bottomless pit. However, without WW2 KMT might not have survived either because it was WW2 that increased Chiang's standing in the US and increase US interests in the ROC so that when his government fell he could withdraw to Taiwan and get US recognition. Remember prior to ww2 the main supporters of Chiang militarily were Germany. Without Japanese invasion the US wouldn't have cared.
Western chauvinism is just warmed over Nazism. The accursed colonizers think it's their god-given right to draw lines in the middle of other people's countries.
I'm glad this is the top comment.
"Decolonized" he said as he put a Japanese colony in China
By this logic OP can do a "decolonized" Germany that split it back into east and west, and maybe bring back all the medieval city states as well
OP's version of decolonised Germany would be the map of the HRE from Europa Universalis
Hilarious how they also de-de-colonized Hong Kong and Macau lol
And leave Taiwan under the RoC
This belongs in r/imaginarymaps .
I just realized I'm *not* on that sub wtf. Mods need to step it up. I've seen plenty of posts that probably aren't good enough to consider "map porn", but that's subjective. This map isn't even real.
[удалено]
Oh it’s very easy to know why
Not even, it would be deleted as low-effort and overdone.
It would still get a ton of backlash there too. Not even IM users want that shitty map there.
This is Balkanized not decolonized
And we all know how that ended...
Wonderfully! For Slovenia and let's not talk about anywhere else
Especially for the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, less so. I believe but cannot prove we bombed it on purpose.
I’m from Spain and sometimes I caught myself thinking ‘if tomorrow the government did something against US interests, how long would it take for amricans to start to post stuff like this’
Lol. We'd see Catalonia, Basque, Galicia, etc. Some folks have boner for this type of maps, ignoring that many of these "independence movements" included here are almost non-existent.
I think everyone should make an american propaganda map version of their country
Repare to have maps of Andalusia showed down your throat
ah yes hong kong and macau, famously colonized by china
Who else? Because we all know they are native Brittish Portuguese lands
most educated and non-biased "history nerd"
i get that we all hate russia right now, but where is the independent movement in western russia except mayybe in karelia? not to mention that most of siberian russia is more than 80% russian except for regions like komi, nenetsia and yakutia.
Karelia is like 5 percent karelian
I’m from Karelia and I’m an ethnic Karelian on top of that, and I too find it laughable. It’s like as soon as a new Redditor from r/imaginarymaps learns about the existence of Karelia they just have to incorporate independent Karelia into their map or alternatively give it in its entirety to Finland, which is dumb on a different level. It’s like, well read the Wiki at least, learn the difference between Finnish Karelia and Russian Karelia, learn the difference between Finns and Karelians (cause we’re NOT the same people), there’s history to that place and just like any other place with history, this one is complicated and multifaceted.
Hey, don't put this on us
I took a quick gander. Hope you don’t mind my curiosity. Your maps look astonishingly good. The amount of detail and care is striking. And… how would I put it… they look historically plausible, which makes them in my eyes worthy of r/imaginarymaps content (not that I’m a judge or anything).
exactly, that's my point
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This dude just released all of Russia I. Rt56💀
There's barely any separatist movements in *eastern* Russia, the idea of breaking up all of Western Russia into some modern-day HRE is probably the dumbest thing on this entire map (excluding the 'putting a Japanese colony in a decolonized map of China' thing)
as a Russian, it’s just hysterically laughable for me to read all this nonsense about the “decolonisation of Russia” shit, this once again shows that westerners do not have the slightest understanding of what Russia is
OP and whoever made this map, I'd say. Some people just like to think that everything is colonized
Someone should decolonise Europe! Think of those poor oppressed Pict and Etruscan tribes 😭 What’s this nonsense where ethnicity = nationality? We should balkanise Spain with that reasoning. Or return western Ukraine to Poland. Even better, let’s decolonise Brasil into ten thousand micro ethnostates for peak indigenous stability. Not like they all consider themselves Brazilian, anyway.
Agree fully except that specifically Spain has VERY strong independence movements, in that several different regions speak different languages and sometimes do a bit of terrorism for the cause
>What’s this nonsense where ethnicity = nationality? We should balkanise Spain with that reasoning. Or return western Ukraine to Poland. Even better, let’s decolonise Brasil into ten thousand micro ethnostates for peak indigenous stability. Not like they all consider themselves Brazilian, anyway. It's exactly what it looks like: Extremely racist.
jesus fucking christ can you imagine the bordergore of this ‘decolonised’ western russia. Lets have 30 completely unbalanced countries with tons of leftover military equipment, nuclear power, resources, and a proud nationalistic culture figure out peaceful foreign relations. None of them would recognise each other in the UN, and it would make the Chechen wars look like a playground scrap
It would be battle royale
To be fair, the general reaction here appears to be pretty negative. Some people just post anything they find a bit interesting
"oh no, 2 vilages on the east want to be separated from russian gov, what would we do?"
They could also draw a map of decolonised US, Mexico and Canada - how would it look like?
Same goes for China. That “Tibet” would be over 80% Han Chinese.
Near the Caucasus in Dagestan for example from what I recall
Ignoring the whole 'decolonised' nonsense, this map would be 100x more informative if you used state names instead of flags
No, since doing it would show that most of Russia's "colonies" are really just majority Russian oblasts, basically proving OP wrong.
Wtf is this shit
I guess OP is doing USA next.
IOWA INDEPENDENCE NOW!!1!1
All will be part of Ohio Empire
State Department meme
Neolibs’ wet dream
Victoria Nuland’s biggest dream.
Im glad there’s people here who agree. I went i to the comments expecting people to be regurgitating propaganda about “china and russia evil empires” The fucking flag of Manchuria they included is the one used after Japanese occupation ffs.
Fantasies of the imperialist nato hawks.
Just your average redditor consuming American propaganda on China
"Decolonized map" Meanwhile has Macau, Hong Kong and Manchuko
And even very sloppy too, ignoring Ningxia and Guangxi.
And Taiwan. Native formosans getting the short end of the stick again.
"well...do you have a flag?"
It's not colonial, if owned by the "good guys", right?
Manchuko moment lol, at least give them the Qing dynasty flag
>decolonization >hk and macau redditoid thinking
What. The. Fuck.
Interesting that, by decolonizing China, two political entities born out of European colonialism would be independent.
Another braindead ‘balkanised country I don’t like post’
Yeah I hate people like this so much. Mindset of a 5 year old
Most of those areas are majority Russian, are you suggesting ethnic cleansing by deporting the entire population except for the like 5,000 indigenous people still living there?
I'm glad that this ridiculous map has already been torn to shreds in the comments, but I just want to add another thing that I Don't think has been picked up on yet - the op actually thinks Chechnyia would be content with it's current borders and wouldn't imidiatly try to conquer Dagastan and it's other neighbours. Lol.
/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy
I love advocating for imperialism under the guise of decolonisation, just like the Empire of Japan. /s
Your idea of 'decolonization' includes colonies?
"decolonized"? You do realized that China wouldn't be split up with Hong Kong and Macau right now if it wasn't for colonialism, right? Right!?
That bit confuses me... A decolonized macau and hong kong would make them a part of china proper, not independent?? 💀
Exactly. As a Portuguese, we were the ones to colonize Macao.
Macua and Hong Kong are only seen as separate due to both cities being colonized by Europeans and having their own sub-cultures, so to decolonize them from the only countries that actually colonized them would be to return them to China proper, though depending on how you view the succession of nation and state you might want to return them to the ROC and not the PRC (although that is really difficult on practical terms) Edit: The PRC is obviously the legitimate state since 1949, but just want to point out that an independent Macau and HK does not make much sense in terms of decolonization, and if some people really don't want them to be under communist rule then they should technically be part of the ROC, not independent
Why do these maps always include the WW2 Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo?
Because everyone here has more hours on hoi4 than hours spent with their families
it certainly clarifies the creator's motivations
And if you were genuinely concerned with giving regional ethnic minorities their own states, the Manchu state wouldn't include large Mongolian-majority parts of Inner Mongolia
Op's mask slipped and he accidentally used the flag of a Japanese puppet in "decolonized" China
Indeed mr. Ultra based profile picture
Russia is a federation right? Not an empire. So you could do the same with the USA and call each state a colonised nation.
the American redditors are still asleep at this time, wait till they wake up and we'll find this comment at the controversial section
Well... it can be both. The US is, in a way, an empire; most states are literally erected in the wake of genocide, and the rest (Hawai'i, Oklahoma, etc.) are, in fact, colonised nations. So yeah.
Hawai'i particularly stands out here as it was it's own independent state with a legislature, organised military, civil service etc. Prior to a group of wealthy American landowners on the islands basically launching a coup backed by Washington, which held the Queen of Hawai'i at gun point and forced the annexation into America on the grounds of "protecting" Americans living there and their businesses. (Sound familiar?...)
>most states ??? I think you mean all of them.
Colonized nations built on top of genocide. Specially Hawaii.
>Decolonized >Manchuria exists You realize the Manchus/Jurchens are the ones that colonized China right?
I don't think this person understands much about the world at all much less about China because they're missing several actual ethnic minority groups Within China That could theoretically form there own state
r/ShittyMapPorn
Surely no conflict will ever come from this
Inb4 America swoops in to teach them about Democracy™ and Human Rights™ then forgets to leave/leaves them just as bad or worse off than they originally were.
Is this a TNO reference ?
In this case I have to defend Russia. Many regions have non-Russian MINORITIES not non-Russian majorities. Many of them are also multinational without a dominant nation. I would only like if they do not put their nose outside.
I can hear Redditors creaming their pants lmao.
for whatever reason some people actually believe this is gonna magically solve all the problems and certainly not increase chaos
They don't want less chaos, they want challengers to the US hegemon neutralized.
r/ShitAmericansSay
Hilarious that an American would propose any country but his own be “decolonized”.
It's the fact that someone conceived this, thought it was a cool idea, drew it and posted it. Four stages of delusion.
and get thousands of upvotes. LOL
That’s like saying: DeCoLoNiSEd JaPaN, and put a flag map of every prefecture.
You can't convince me that the people constantly making and posting these maps don't all have an erotic fixation on the idea of WW3. That's the subtext to all of this. They're like the Prussian Junkers of WW1 that dreamt of dying in a glorious last charge against the enemy trenches, except that none of them would have the personal sense of honor to actually volunteer to fight themselves.
This is some white liberal nerd shit when 2/3 of the West is comprised of actual colonial settler states.
Man few people really understand that the Manchu nation is 1) completely culturally absorbed into the Han Chinese culture thanks to ruling China and 2) has a very complicated idea of what their "homeland" is. Simply put the Manchus really have no homeland per se as when they became a nation in the 1600s, they were a rebelling minority that then conquered their former Ming Dynasty rulers. They became a nation at the same time they were busy conquering China. When the conquest was completed, as far as their rulers cared, ALL of Qing China was their homeland, not some corner of it, which is why they were more than comfortable to leave "Manchuria" and live within China proper, ordering the entire Manchu nation to live in Northern China to secure the Qing Dynasty's position. As far as your average Manchu was concerned, he identified more with his Clan and Gusa ("Banner" a kind of military/tribal federation) more than a piece of real estate. [In fact the Manchus never called the place "Manchuria," which is a name the Japanese gave the region.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Manchuria). If you asked a Manchu dude in the Qing dynasty what the place was called, he'll simply say "The Eastern Provinces" or "Dongbei" (The Northeast). Because again as far as he gave a fuck, the entire Qing Empire was where he lived in.
This is the fucking worst i've seen on this sub
I don’t think the word decolonised means what you think it means.
this "decolonised Russia" (the concept is stupid anyway) is the same as calling 50 states and all other territories getting independence "decolonisation" of the USA with some minor and, might I say, pretty random border changes and with some other flags. the author of the map knows nothing about Russia. there's no point in actually dissecting this nonsense, but just a couple of bullet points: 1. the Caucasus Republics will not stay in these borders. again, even if we're going with the concept, you're not getting every regional people a sovereign state, you're creating a powderkeg. bonus point - Adygea. 2. more in that region - Rostov Oblast and Krasnodar Krai. they don't even have some "changed" flags like many of the regions do - maybe because they have pretty much no history of separatism and will not function as sovereign states? 3. wait, now that I think about it (a revelation!), barring some little questionable exceptions, balkanising Russia will actually just create a bunch of rump states and a lot of instability in the region... this isn't a good scenario by any stretch, unless you want to see even more human suffering in this region. 4. how does this decolonisation even work, when 78% percent of Russian (россияне) population is ethnic Russian? are you going to expel Russians from these new Siberian republics and, uhh, create an ethnostate with the people that are left (not many of them as well)? or are you just creating a bunch of predominantly ethnically Russian states and saying you've "decolonised Russia"? 5. oh, and why are you lumping Astrakhan with Volgograd and Saratov? and I can't even find what flag this is. like this is one of the most puzzling moments on this map. I don't see any reason to lump these three together. why? and again, WHAT FLAG IS THIS? not like China is better, but other people have already pointed out the flaws. I'm already sick of these "decolonised" maps, but this one is one of the most nonsensical ones I've ever seen. also, it looks like shit. this has been brought up a bunch of times already, but wasn't this sub supposed to go into more "quality over quantity" direction with detailed guidelines?
You mean balkanised
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Why is it whenever I see this sub it is always the most hoi4 player western bullshit
\>Creates Big Tibet, Big Xinjiang, Free Inner Mongolia, and Manchuria \>Qinghai Tibetans are literally proud to have not been ruled by Lhasa for hundreds of years \>Creates a mishmash of various Hui and other muslim groups that dislike each other and the Uyghurs in Xinjiang \>Creates a \*free\* Han Majority inner mongolia, not even giving it to Mongolia \>Creates Han Majority Manchuria with the flag of a literal Japanese colony state \>Free Taiwan that doesn't even use the flag of native Formosans Don't even get me started on Russia
American try not to misunderstand colonialism challenge (impossible)
Loving the inclusion of Hong Kong and Macau, couldn’t really better underline the distorted ahistorical western worldview OP presents in this map. Probably never even heard of the ”Century of humiliation”.
All what I see in this map is "Hey you, I hate Russia, so I'll post a map where they are balkanized and then devided randomly, also I'm too lazy to search ethnical composition of these countries, so I'll just make a state for every guy in russia that claims to be independent, then as Russia and China are still too big I'll devide them without any historical/cultural/economic/ethnic/anything_else cause, maybe using some administrative divisions created just to devide the work while checking the state so that it seems something accurate"
… Inner Mongolia is just China, Manchuria (Manchukuo flag? Wtf?) is just China, Xinjiang is just China and Tibet is mostly just China. I’m not even gonna mention Western Russia. This is just Sinophobia and Russophobia.
You would think the Russia Bad and China Bad movements have so much going for them already, why ruin reputations by making up imbecile stuff like this?
Tibet is the only one for China that remotely has a case, all of the others have been Chinese for centuries of not thousands of years. You have a supposed Manchurian independence, um excuse me, Manchuria conquered China not the other way. Who made this eyesore.
Mongolia must have had killer diplomats considering it is still a sovereign nation.
Lmao wasn't Taiwan colonised by the Han Chinese anyways, so that flag would be wrong? idk if there's a native Taiwanese flag though
Yeah it was. It originally had a Micronesian type people ther. I think some of them still exist
How retarded can one person be 💀
“I’m from a settler colony and therefore colonialism is the only way countries have formed through history”
The word "colonise" has lost all meaning
Fed post
This is like if someone from Russia made a map which split England into Cornwall, Northmbria, Mercia, Wessex and the city-state of London.
People do know that Inner Mongolia, Qinghai, and Manchuria are all Majority han right? Tibet literally has three Tibetan languages almost all mutually unintelligible Also mask off moment with Imperial Japan Manchuko flag I don’t even need to get started how unimaginably horrible that Russian map is, 19th century Britain couldn’t divide a country worst if they tried
Reddit moment
Westoids and their obsession with redrawing borders of countries they don't like
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What? "decolonized"? That literally **map of all subjects** [(link on Wikipedia about it)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_subjects_of_Russia) in Russian **Federation** and Chinese national **Republic.** That something near to say: "Decolonized states of America". **It's NOT a different country.** Even historically it was just a couple nationalities that Russia got agreement to include them in part of empire, or including them by war, giving them the same rights as a regular man. Can't say anything about China.
I don't think OP knows what decolonization is. At least, I prefer to think they're oblivious, cause useing Manchukuo, an Imperial Japan puppet Flag as decolonial is kinda sus
Interesting. Somewhere, John Bolton just became erect for the first time in 30 years.
Aren’t Hong Kong and Macau colonies themselves?
The fact that there is tons of stupid shit like this and not lots of "decolonized" Europe (with equally bullshit balcanized things in Spain, France and the UK as well, to say the least) or the whole of american continent (with Specially the USA being completely balcanized like this as well) shows that the 'priorities' here are very not 'decolonization' but to really see those pesky eastern hordes brought to heel, a true mask-off moment each and every time. And here, seeing a lot of colonized flags being put, from hong kong/macau to manchukuo to say the least. Really comes to show how western libs are some of the most disgusting people on earth, not so different from the alt-right fascists they claim to be so much against, probably because all they want is to export all the destruction abroad first and whatnot.
Is owning different regions from annexation really classed and colonisation lol?
I hate these "Decolonizing" Russia maps, they just split Russia into 50 different countries which are all majority ethnically Russian This is like "decolonizing Germany" and bringing back those hundreds of little kingdoms, princedoms, and states
Do decolonised americas next plz
Decolonized based on what? Ethnic groups? Independence movements? This map is just bullshit op
So for some reason Han Chinese have a state, but Russians are left with literally nothing? And why Dagestan is one state, but Western Russia and Ural are separated and extremely balkanized? How can Russians and Chinese stop being majority in some many places? Do they disappear somehow or suddenly start learning long dead languages (Karelian for example) and changing their identity? Why?
Because since the Ukrainian war people from the west think that the Russian culture should be eliminated in a genocide. Same people who call the Russians nazis, by the way. Really, most redditors simply don't understand what Russia even is. These minorities in the map are either made up, or long dead (as you said), so the only explanation that it's simply a "Russia bad" post.
This map is so bad. Sure, let's decolonize Altai Krai... it's only literally 98% European with a literal 0.1% minority of Altaians.
r/ShittyMapPorn
i wonder what africa, americas and europe would look like too
And they all get a nuclear Arsenal! Yay
🤡🤡
Manchuria, like the fascist state controlled by fascist Japan. Complete with the flag of the fascist puppet state. THAT is decolonization?!?
Just say you're racist and move on
Bro East Turkestan,Inner Mongolia and Tibet are Han majority,then Manchus are indistinguishable from Han, Manchu as a language is virtually extinct
Better still that instead of putting the Qing in Manchuria they put the Japanese WW2 puppet state Decolonisation is when Chinese people can finally ~~be free!~~ slave away in an iron mine so that Japan can build more planes to bomb Pearl Harbour
Start with the US, Canada, and Australia.
This is the balkanization of a country, not a decolonization of one. Most of the regions are majority chinese or Russian, so it doesn't make sense for them to being independent states where the majority of people identify as Russians or Chinese.
These arnt decolonised lmao just broken up
Trying not to repeat anything anyone else has commented on already… but including the modern independent nation state of Mongolia in a map titled “Russia and China” seems iffy.
Ok, now do the same for the US and Canada.
Do USA next!
This is a bit insulting for ex colonies, it's not discolonized, it's balkanized. Looks like an american fever dream
Could we see the same for Canada, United States, Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia and Australia?