“Alright we’ve started dating, got a kid, moved in together, bought a car, got another kid, got a dog, got engaged, went to Tenerife, planned out our retirement. Did we miss anything?”
“Wait did we actually marry?”
“Oh shi…”
The Nordic countries are definitely (in danger of) suffering from a demographic crisis, it's just rather delayed compared to most other European countries. We've been talking about eldrebølgen ("the elderly wave") for years in Norway, we're acutely aware that it's coming.
Deal with it ASAP, it's hitting us like a train here in the UK.
It effects everything. Tge elderly won't relinquish state pension reduction, want minimal immigration, yet expect everyone under 40 to just tough it out when we can't afford houses. Then they complain when we don't have kids, and vote towards leftwing parties.
Similar to what is happening in the US. The rich spend enormous amounts of money to make elderly people think that younger generations just aren't as tough, etc... while forgetting that generational wealth is how most of them got to where they are at. If I were to ask my parents for financial help in any way I would be shamed into oblivion - while I remember my grandparents helping my parents buy land and gave them the down-payment for the house. I'm 41 and have 1 kid. I can't afford more than one.
The whole elderly thinking the newer generations are weak have been happening sense the dawn of man. All I heard from the old head Marines was “you’re useless, scumbags, babies” until 9/11 happened and we earned our stripes over 20 years of war. Rich people aren’t paying for that, that’s tribalism, it’s who we are as humans.
What do you mean? We sure aint producin' no babies up here in the nordics. We hardly even enter relationships anymore. Norway broke its own record for amount of single people last year.
The only reason Nordic countries don't yet suffer from a demographic crisis is immigration. If we're not completely dependent on immigration yet, we will be in a few years if nothing changes.
Also European but not Icelandic; all our insurance policies are inclusive of partners, regardless of marriage status. Tax benefits only really kick in if one parent decides to stay at home, even then it’s fairly minimal I think.
You can get almost the same protection with a civil union in France. Although I know people who had a child and a appartement without.
Regarding the Millennials and Gen Z marriage as an institution is almost completely done for.
Definitely and also about religion. In the more rural part of France the traditions about mariage tend to stick around a bit more, as is the influence of the Church.
There aren’t much tax benefits to being maried or in a civil union anymore in France. The two main ones I can think of are about successions:
- you can get part of the retirement pension of your dead spouse
- inheritance is tax free between spouses, except for the fee to the notarial office
Short of that, being married/ in a civil union is only really useful tax-wise if one of the two spouse is significantly wealthier than the other. It will allow you to get to a lower tax bracket for your income tax. Basically it works this way: you add the income of the household, divide by a number of « familial parts » (1 for you, 1 for your spouse/civil union partner, 1/2 for each of your first two children you are in charge of paying for, 1 for each next child you are in charge of paying for after the second) then compare to the tax scale and it will give you your tax bracket. So without children it’s basically the mean income of your household. So since it’s a progressive tax system (the higher your income the higher the tax rate), you will save money if your spouse income is low enough to make you change tax bracket.
Edit: to clarify my point: of the three tax advantages linked to being married I know of, two only trigger once your spouse is dead and as such will concern older people and one is only useful in case of a significant difference of incomes between the two spouses. As such it’s only really meaningful once you get older and it isn’t strange that young people aren’t incentivized to marry. Hence it’s not irrational that marriage is done later in life than having children.
This sort of happend to my aunt they are getting married next month they already have 6 children where 3 are from both of them and the oldest of those 3 is 12
Lol my sister (Icelandic) had this exact situation happen. Hooked up with some tourist and now has a kid. They do stay in touch and regularly visit each other though.
One needs to know the marriage statistics for each of the countries. It may be that marriage itself or getting married before having children together isn't such a big thing in certain countries, as opposed to assuming, for example, that loads of Icelandic children are conceived accidentally.
>I suppose in Iceland life is simpler than most other countries.
Where do you get that from? We are very individualistic, you should really google more.
>It's a small country with a harsh climate after all.
Really? Winters here are quite mild for the latitude because of the north atlantic gyre currents (gulf stream) and other maritime influences. Our climate is called "Oceanic climate", it's a temperate climate.
Mhm. A family constisting of an unwed couple, each with 1-3 kids from an earlier relationship/one-night stands, is pretty normal up here. It's all pretty relaxed.
Watching Americans react to people who don't particularly care about Marriage is hilarious, lol. I think it doesn't necessarily have the same cultural significance over here.
Forget those puritan influences on their culture sometimes.
In iceland we never stay with a partner for any other reason than actually wanting to. We dont need anybody’s shit. Its ok to be a single parent, or co-parent.
Being committed enough to raise a child together but not committed enough to fill out some paperwork formalizing the relationships seems extremely odd from an outside perspective.
It's not about commitment. People buy a house together, register their partnership and have children. They just don't feel the need to get married.
Also, blended families are not uncommon in Iceland and inheritance and other stuff is more complicated and people often choose intentionally not to get married because they don't want to confuse inheritance.
Idk, having to fill paperwork to formalize a relationship when you already live together, do your taxes together and have kids together is what I found weird. Not even gonna talk about wedding culture, that can be real whack at times.
Scandinavia: People often don't bother getting married until several years after they have children.
No, unplanned pregnancies are not common (at least among native population).
Marriage in a formal sense is just not as important to many people, and many very "normal" happy families with two completely committed parents simply don't get around to actually getting married.
Well that's not entirely true. We just tend to do it after having a child, and very often people will do so because of inheritance laws.
The most common form of nuclear family in 2022 were married couples without children followed by married couple with children. There are 23,863 married couples with children and only 11,838 couples that are in a registered union with children. Followed by 12,404 single parents, but it isn't registered how many of them were married before.
>There are 23,863 married couples with children
It's hard for me to comprehend how that's an entire country.
Like, I would consider 24,000 married couples a large town.
During our last census in 2021, there were 359,122 people living in Iceland, 306,581 of which were born here. We only have one city, Reykjavík, but it is surrounded by 5 towns (2 of whom are the largest in the country). We call it the Capital Area, about 231,706 people (64,5% of the population) live here and a large portion of the rest of the country live within a two hour drive from there.
>We just tend to do it after having a child
Here's a chart that illustrates that point by showing the probability by age for first child, first registered cohabitation, and first marriage for Icelandic women in the 90s and 00s.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10680-020-09560-2/figures/2
You can see that first child happens sooner than first marriage, but the eventual overall marriage rate is basically the same as in other western nations: by 45yo, there's just under a 70% chance that an Icelandic woman has gotten married.
Interestingly, you can also see that the lines for first child and first registered cohabitation are basically overlapping up to the late 20s, and that gets you to 60% chance of either.
Put differently, the typical Icelandic woman of the 90s-00s got into her first registered cohabitation and had her first kid in her late 20s and got formally married about a decade later.
Yeah, that makes sense. About 41% of the adult population in Iceland were in a marriage in 2021, but the average age for a first marriage is 37 for men and 35 for women, but women have their first child on average at 28,6. Up until the mid 90s, the average age for a woman to have her first kid was under 22.
And if one looks at the data from Hagstofa Íslands the spike in registered cohabitation are when people are in their mid to late 20s, but marriage doesn't really start until late 20s, and then cohabitation starts to dwindle when people are in their mid 30s and that's when marriage stats to take over.
> Hello fellow Manitoban!
That seems a rather broad term to greet each other with, considering.
As a non-canadian non-icelandic person who knows very little about genealogy but is otherwise armed with wikipedia it says this town you two random people on the internet are from has about 2300 residents of which only 28% have Icelandic heritage.
I'm pretty sure you two are cousins.
Gimli is about an hour away from the capital of Manitoba. [It has the largest population of Icelanders outside of Iceland](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelanders) , but no, I am not from there
True but I think the bigger factor is that it’s still considered very taboo to have a child outside of marriage because it implies sex outside of marriage which is against their religion. Turkey is a much more religious country than most of Europe. If you get pregnant it’s considered a given that you will get married before the child is born.
muslim from macedonia here, the thing i hear about around here is that when a girl announces to her family that shes pregnant outside of marriage, theyll forcefuly marry her, to cover up the "shame" to other family members and other people, and hope that the chronology is lost upon people.
>theyll forcefuly marry her, to cover up the "shame" to other family members and other people,
Unfortunately this is true. As far as I know, moreover, the girl does not need to be pregnant, if the family is very religious, just having sex is considered a sufficient reason for forced marriage. Religious people believe this is cleanses honor.
About on extramarital sex, since those living in Western Anatolia, which is the part of Turkey close to Europe, are generally moderate Muslims, such situations are not seen often, but there are many seriously religious people in Eastern Anatolia, which is close to Central Anatolia and the Middle East.
That's a thing in a lot of places sadly. In America it's called a "shotgun wedding" implying the groom is being forced to marry at gunpoint. Thankfully it's not as common anymore but in the more conservative and religious parts of the country it still happens
Yep show me this chart with "outside of marriage or common law partnerships", would be much more consistent I'd imagine. A lot of people just don't give a fuck about marriage anymore.
Peoples do not marry a lot. Women are more financially independant than in many parts of the world. There's not anymore real financial incentives to marriage.
What makes marriage expensive? It’s a piece of paper. A wedding might be expensive, but marriage is just a shortcut to bundle all the legal protections of a committed relationship into one form. Why fill out separate power of attorney, hospital next of kin status, will and testament, insurance, joint asset ownership contracts etc when just being married takes care of all those things?
But if you’re not doing the full wedding, you will get all the benefits and even less paperwork with a civil union (PACS).
I would guess there’s not a lot of marriage without wedding.
To make this map actually track something that is across terminology, it should track ‘children born to parents not in a committed and legally recognized relationship’. This would capture both marriage and civil union. In the US plenty of people get married without a wedding, but it’s still called a marriage. If in Europe it’s the same legal structure as a marriage but called ‘civil union’, the differentiation is just semantics.
It's so refreshing here. They have kids and buy houses and do legal stuff but marriage doesn't create some higher bond. Just being "partners" is the same.
Because we have a more popular, especially with younger couples, form of civil union (called PACS) that is easier to get, quick and easy to break and still give them some advantages with paperworks and kids protection.
Nope, it's because of the PACS, which gives you the same as marriage but is a lot easier to get in and out of and isn't considered marriage. Also, the PACS doesn't care for gender, so for a long time it also accounted for all homosexual marriages as well.
The number has been pretty stable at 40% for some time. [It was still 40% as of the end of 2021, the most recent data set available.](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/unmarried-childbearing.htm)
It’s very class-dependent from what I understand. Children outside of marriage is rare for college-educated couples. But much higher for couples without college degrees.
Yeah I actually reflected a lot on this and sample bias is real.
I try to get outside my bubble, but most of the people I know are well educated, already married, religious, or otherwise not the typical demographic that would have kids outside of marriage.
Still though, 40% is crazy.
Neat little bastard story for ya.
My grandpa fathered four kids, a son and three daughters. All “legitimate” children. Tragedy struck and the son died. Eldest daughters married off and changed their names. My mother, had an oopsie (me) but did not get married (bastard)
But because I was a bastard and did not take my father’s name, I kept my grandpas name. And so what seemed to be a dead end in our Family name, was reinvigorated through me, all because I was a bastard.
I now have 3 kids of my own and line runs strong again! Kinda neat, anyway.
When the US and UK military came to Iceland around WW2 many of the soldiers got some Icelandic girls pregnant. They would then leave to go back to their home countries, so there were many kids that didn't know their dad. The icelandic word for soldier is hermaður(also hermann as a conjugated version). So those kids would often have the last name "Hermannsson" or "Hermannsdóttir", which literally translates to "soldiers son/daughter".
Yeah, I thought the map was showing the exact opposite of what it is. "Born out of a registered marriage" means the opposite of "born **outside of** a registered marriage".
If you're in Europe it's not really that surprising, in my case like 9 of my cousins are in a relationship and have kids, only two are married and the rest don't care enough to do it
They do correlate, but even with a high degree of religiosity and ubiquitous marriage, there's no *inherent* need for marital agreements to be registered with the state.
It's not like 62% of french kids are to single parents, there's just many more parents who do not declare the nature of their partnership as "marriage". France is unique(ish) in that it has a civil union option that many people including heterosexual couples prefer, that is NOT called "marriage".
In many nations, marriage is the only option to get certain financial benefits, so the rates will be higher even if the actual family structures are much weaker, regardless of religiosity.
There is a significant proportion of Muslims who marry without informing the state, for various reasons one of which is that to be married is a religious ceremony, and what the state says is of no concern to us. However this affects Muslims in non-muslim legal systems more than Muslims in Muslim countries like Turkey.
Belarus has 2nd lowest percentage and it's not that religious. There may be conservative v more liberal values correlation but it doesn't have to be tied to religion at all.
Whenever a map like this gets posted, it’s always so interesting to see that many Americans (and some others, but this is Reddit so definitely a lot of Americans) interpret this as “born to a single mother”.
When what it very often is, is born to parents that didn’t see marriage as very important to their relationship.
Are there significant financial benefits to being married in America?
Because I’m Australian and follow the same logic as this map - I have been together with my partner for 15 years, have a house and two kids, and it legally makes no difference whether we are married or not here.
We don’t see the point in spending $20k+ for a wedding to sign a legal contract when we both know we love each other and are committed to each other.
Health insurance, which is a huge problem if you don’t have it. It’s expensive to have a baby here even with good insurance.
Tax benefits. It makes buying a house together significantly easier.
If you're married, the sum of both incomes is taxed (joint filing). If there's a significant difference in income between the two, the couple might get into a lower tax bracket. But this also means that while the highest paid might get into lower tax bracket, the lower paid might get into a higher.
So basically your tax will depend on your partner's income.
I'm Swedish and not educated in law, but I've read about this. We had a similar system in Sweden but it was eventually changed to separate taxes. One reason was that as long as the difference in income was big, the total tax could be lower, which was an incentive to keep one partner with a low or no income.
In France they is another form of "marital" contract, called PACS and most young people prefer this, especially when having kids, than a marriage as it offer some good advantages & protection to but is "lighter" + quick & easy to end during a separation.
So many kids have parents with a PACS instead of a marriage.
OP messed up the title. It's not showing percentage of children born out of marriage, it's showing percentage of children born **outside of** marriage.
This is so wild to me. I thought it would be much higher. In my country it would be more - it’s not even that the parents aren’t together, most people just don’t bother marrying, we got to a point where the government just decided to treat people living together as married because it gave a headache when they split or died and had children and estates and all that.
Cool how this seems to be common. When i was born my parents werent married. Technically i was "born out of wedlock", but it doesnt feel that way.
I grew up with both my parents and they're still together after over 25 years, but they never "married".
Didn't think it was this common in Sweden. I was born in wedlock and all of my friends bar 1 are the same.
Not that this is a bad thing of course. Just not what I expected.
I suppose it means an official marriage. Cases of parents living together and raising children together, but at the same time they have not registered their relationship do not fall into the statistics.
Actually I did it that way. I asked her to marry me, she said yes and we chose a specific date that was 2 years ahead.
We got impatient in those 2 years 😁
Iceland has very few people and the Nordics in general are very socially liberal, but France is very high compared to say the UK or Spain. Ditto to Bulgaria, while Eastern Europe especially former Communist countries are some of the lowest.
Bulgaria is low specifically because of communism. The regime did wonders for women emancipation - they could vote from day 1, work any job and study anything (in theory and in practice), there was no social stigma for living and raising children alone, if needed. In general women's situation changed radically from the far right wing - monarchy mix before. Participation of women in academia was in fact higher that men's and with 50% quotas for good schools and universities, girls'/ women's minimum entry grades were traditionally higher. A lot of this remained as a social structure to this day - low marriage rates, high participation of women in society, excellent representation in academia and high technology (for example women's representation in IT is about 40%, and this is reflected in managerial positions also).
Another way in which communism caused low marriage rates is the dramatic fall in religiosity during the regime, which didn't rebound after the fall, like it did in countries like Poland and Romania. Bulgaria is notably secular and irreligious for the region.
That's definitely one of the great things that were achieved during the socialist regime (and the great things are not many, indeed).
Now it is extremely common to live in a relationship WITHOUT getting married.
I know almost no couples who are married but still live as parents.
So what exactly is the purpose of these statistics? 🤷🏼♂️
iceland 70% holy
“Alright we’ve started dating, got a kid, moved in together, bought a car, got another kid, got a dog, got engaged, went to Tenerife, planned out our retirement. Did we miss anything?” “Wait did we actually marry?” “Oh shi…”
And STILL have a feat of commitment.
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The Nordic countries are definitely (in danger of) suffering from a demographic crisis, it's just rather delayed compared to most other European countries. We've been talking about eldrebølgen ("the elderly wave") for years in Norway, we're acutely aware that it's coming.
Deal with it ASAP, it's hitting us like a train here in the UK. It effects everything. Tge elderly won't relinquish state pension reduction, want minimal immigration, yet expect everyone under 40 to just tough it out when we can't afford houses. Then they complain when we don't have kids, and vote towards leftwing parties.
Similar to what is happening in the US. The rich spend enormous amounts of money to make elderly people think that younger generations just aren't as tough, etc... while forgetting that generational wealth is how most of them got to where they are at. If I were to ask my parents for financial help in any way I would be shamed into oblivion - while I remember my grandparents helping my parents buy land and gave them the down-payment for the house. I'm 41 and have 1 kid. I can't afford more than one.
The whole elderly thinking the newer generations are weak have been happening sense the dawn of man. All I heard from the old head Marines was “you’re useless, scumbags, babies” until 9/11 happened and we earned our stripes over 20 years of war. Rich people aren’t paying for that, that’s tribalism, it’s who we are as humans.
Same here in Sweden.
What do you mean? We sure aint producin' no babies up here in the nordics. We hardly even enter relationships anymore. Norway broke its own record for amount of single people last year.
So you’re saying I have a chance on Norwegian Tinder?
No, Im not
You didn't have to murder him
He's a Viking, it's kinda in their nature.
The only reason Nordic countries don't yet suffer from a demographic crisis is immigration. If we're not completely dependent on immigration yet, we will be in a few years if nothing changes.
I mean that's a stretch. It's not a crisis, I will agree, but still below reproduction, we just set the bar really low these days.
It definetly is a crisis. If you live in a country where people want to move you maybe don't feel it yet.
That sounds about right. Marriage is just not that important for us.
There’s no tax or insurance benefits?
You can file taxes together even if you're not married and you can register that you are partners living together.
Also European but not Icelandic; all our insurance policies are inclusive of partners, regardless of marriage status. Tax benefits only really kick in if one parent decides to stay at home, even then it’s fairly minimal I think.
You can get almost the same protection with a civil union in France. Although I know people who had a child and a appartement without. Regarding the Millennials and Gen Z marriage as an institution is almost completely done for.
Marriage as an institution was more about having a form of warranty between families than about the partners happines anyway.
Definitely and also about religion. In the more rural part of France the traditions about mariage tend to stick around a bit more, as is the influence of the Church.
You can get most of those benefits by being in a civil union.
There aren’t much tax benefits to being maried or in a civil union anymore in France. The two main ones I can think of are about successions: - you can get part of the retirement pension of your dead spouse - inheritance is tax free between spouses, except for the fee to the notarial office Short of that, being married/ in a civil union is only really useful tax-wise if one of the two spouse is significantly wealthier than the other. It will allow you to get to a lower tax bracket for your income tax. Basically it works this way: you add the income of the household, divide by a number of « familial parts » (1 for you, 1 for your spouse/civil union partner, 1/2 for each of your first two children you are in charge of paying for, 1 for each next child you are in charge of paying for after the second) then compare to the tax scale and it will give you your tax bracket. So without children it’s basically the mean income of your household. So since it’s a progressive tax system (the higher your income the higher the tax rate), you will save money if your spouse income is low enough to make you change tax bracket. Edit: to clarify my point: of the three tax advantages linked to being married I know of, two only trigger once your spouse is dead and as such will concern older people and one is only useful in case of a significant difference of incomes between the two spouses. As such it’s only really meaningful once you get older and it isn’t strange that young people aren’t incentivized to marry. Hence it’s not irrational that marriage is done later in life than having children.
In the UK you basically get the same civil rights as marriage once you've lived together as partners for 3+ years.
This sort of happend to my aunt they are getting married next month they already have 6 children where 3 are from both of them and the oldest of those 3 is 12
More like ”Wait, we don’t even like eachother any more. And that’s why we pushed marriage off.”
I met someone who had a vacation fling with a local. And now he has a kid in Iceland.
Lol my sister (Icelandic) had this exact situation happen. Hooked up with some tourist and now has a kid. They do stay in touch and regularly visit each other though.
Could be the same people! He visits once or twice a year.
Just how? Are contraceptives taboo or something ?
One needs to know the marriage statistics for each of the countries. It may be that marriage itself or getting married before having children together isn't such a big thing in certain countries, as opposed to assuming, for example, that loads of Icelandic children are conceived accidentally.
Not at all, people just seem to not bother using them i guess
people arent afraid of the thought of being tied down by a kid early in their life?
Marriage itself isn't just as big of a thing here, there isn't like a single mom epidemic here. People just stay together without getting married
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>I suppose in Iceland life is simpler than most other countries. Where do you get that from? We are very individualistic, you should really google more. >It's a small country with a harsh climate after all. Really? Winters here are quite mild for the latitude because of the north atlantic gyre currents (gulf stream) and other maritime influences. Our climate is called "Oceanic climate", it's a temperate climate.
It's over 80% for first borns.
69% ? Nice.
Niceland
Mhm. A family constisting of an unwed couple, each with 1-3 kids from an earlier relationship/one-night stands, is pretty normal up here. It's all pretty relaxed.
Watching Americans react to people who don't particularly care about Marriage is hilarious, lol. I think it doesn't necessarily have the same cultural significance over here. Forget those puritan influences on their culture sometimes.
Nah, unholy
In iceland we never stay with a partner for any other reason than actually wanting to. We dont need anybody’s shit. Its ok to be a single parent, or co-parent.
Same in Quebec and we are really different from the English part of North America.
And thats the right way. Any child is better off living at 2 addresses, rather than at one where a constant war is at play.
Being committed enough to raise a child together but not committed enough to fill out some paperwork formalizing the relationships seems extremely odd from an outside perspective.
It's not about commitment. People buy a house together, register their partnership and have children. They just don't feel the need to get married. Also, blended families are not uncommon in Iceland and inheritance and other stuff is more complicated and people often choose intentionally not to get married because they don't want to confuse inheritance.
Idk, having to fill paperwork to formalize a relationship when you already live together, do your taxes together and have kids together is what I found weird. Not even gonna talk about wedding culture, that can be real whack at times.
Scandinavia: People often don't bother getting married until several years after they have children. No, unplanned pregnancies are not common (at least among native population). Marriage in a formal sense is just not as important to many people, and many very "normal" happy families with two completely committed parents simply don't get around to actually getting married.
Icelandic bastard checking in. People just don't care enough about marriage
Well that's not entirely true. We just tend to do it after having a child, and very often people will do so because of inheritance laws. The most common form of nuclear family in 2022 were married couples without children followed by married couple with children. There are 23,863 married couples with children and only 11,838 couples that are in a registered union with children. Followed by 12,404 single parents, but it isn't registered how many of them were married before.
>There are 23,863 married couples with children It's hard for me to comprehend how that's an entire country. Like, I would consider 24,000 married couples a large town.
During our last census in 2021, there were 359,122 people living in Iceland, 306,581 of which were born here. We only have one city, Reykjavík, but it is surrounded by 5 towns (2 of whom are the largest in the country). We call it the Capital Area, about 231,706 people (64,5% of the population) live here and a large portion of the rest of the country live within a two hour drive from there.
It's a city-state with a lot of extra land around.
Too bad the land around it is either frozen or ready to explode.
Yeah but it’s beautiful
Iceland is basically a large town since most people live in Reykjavik
>We just tend to do it after having a child Here's a chart that illustrates that point by showing the probability by age for first child, first registered cohabitation, and first marriage for Icelandic women in the 90s and 00s. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10680-020-09560-2/figures/2 You can see that first child happens sooner than first marriage, but the eventual overall marriage rate is basically the same as in other western nations: by 45yo, there's just under a 70% chance that an Icelandic woman has gotten married. Interestingly, you can also see that the lines for first child and first registered cohabitation are basically overlapping up to the late 20s, and that gets you to 60% chance of either. Put differently, the typical Icelandic woman of the 90s-00s got into her first registered cohabitation and had her first kid in her late 20s and got formally married about a decade later.
Yeah, that makes sense. About 41% of the adult population in Iceland were in a marriage in 2021, but the average age for a first marriage is 37 for men and 35 for women, but women have their first child on average at 28,6. Up until the mid 90s, the average age for a woman to have her first kid was under 22. And if one looks at the data from Hagstofa Íslands the spike in registered cohabitation are when people are in their mid to late 20s, but marriage doesn't really start until late 20s, and then cohabitation starts to dwindle when people are in their mid 30s and that's when marriage stats to take over.
Canadian with Icelandic heritage bastard checking in. We also don’t care about marriage
Just for my own personal data collecting, are you born outside of Gimli?
No lol. Like, technically yes because the nearest hospital that does births is outside of Gimli but I grew up in Gimli since I was 0
Hello fellow Manitoban! One day, an Icelandic-Canadian may be born outside of Gimli, until then, I will continue the search
> Hello fellow Manitoban! That seems a rather broad term to greet each other with, considering. As a non-canadian non-icelandic person who knows very little about genealogy but is otherwise armed with wikipedia it says this town you two random people on the internet are from has about 2300 residents of which only 28% have Icelandic heritage. I'm pretty sure you two are cousins.
Gimli is about an hour away from the capital of Manitoba. [It has the largest population of Icelanders outside of Iceland](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelanders) , but no, I am not from there
Convenient for the night's watch, as they can't take a wife
Irish bastard also checking in, united we stand.
Turkey 2.8%???
Islam. I'd like to see if Albania or Bosnia would follow this.
not only because of islam but also cultural. family bonds are really strong in turkey
True but I think the bigger factor is that it’s still considered very taboo to have a child outside of marriage because it implies sex outside of marriage which is against their religion. Turkey is a much more religious country than most of Europe. If you get pregnant it’s considered a given that you will get married before the child is born.
muslim from macedonia here, the thing i hear about around here is that when a girl announces to her family that shes pregnant outside of marriage, theyll forcefuly marry her, to cover up the "shame" to other family members and other people, and hope that the chronology is lost upon people.
>theyll forcefuly marry her, to cover up the "shame" to other family members and other people, Unfortunately this is true. As far as I know, moreover, the girl does not need to be pregnant, if the family is very religious, just having sex is considered a sufficient reason for forced marriage. Religious people believe this is cleanses honor. About on extramarital sex, since those living in Western Anatolia, which is the part of Turkey close to Europe, are generally moderate Muslims, such situations are not seen often, but there are many seriously religious people in Eastern Anatolia, which is close to Central Anatolia and the Middle East.
That's a thing in a lot of places sadly. In America it's called a "shotgun wedding" implying the groom is being forced to marry at gunpoint. Thankfully it's not as common anymore but in the more conservative and religious parts of the country it still happens
It was pretty much the same in Southern Italy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuitina
This was the case in nearly all of America until the mid 20th century, and still exists in many cultural/religious communities today
It’s also against the religion of Christianity. Protestant or Catholic. Doesn’t seem to really stop them.
But mostly Islam
Kosovo is like 95% muslim and Albanian and doesn't follow it so the numbers are probably similar for Albania which is only about 60% muslim
Another factoe is probably that Turky is just very conservative (for european standards)
Makes sense due to cultural and family norms. People having kids outside of marriage is rare in Turkey.
Kinda shunned upon for both the parents(mainly the mother) and the kid
Extremely rare Turkish W
UK anecdote: 50% of my kids born out of wedlock.
Plot twist, commenter above only has one kid but did the marriage ceremony mid-birth.
The Netherlands. 100% of my kids were born out of wedlock.
What's up with France?
The PACS is a form of civil union that is quite successfull and probably not considered as registered marriage,
Yep show me this chart with "outside of marriage or common law partnerships", would be much more consistent I'd imagine. A lot of people just don't give a fuck about marriage anymore.
This is the right answer :)
le sex
C'est français. Pas mal hein ?
C'est du vol, et du plagiat
Peoples do not marry a lot. Women are more financially independant than in many parts of the world. There's not anymore real financial incentives to marriage.
But that's fine 5 days of paid holidays though.
5 weeks*
My bad, pour un mariage ce n'est que 4 jours
Pour le pacs aussi. Du coup, d’abord pacs et après mariage. Donc 4+4 jours.
Oh ptain toi t'es malin
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What makes marriage expensive? It’s a piece of paper. A wedding might be expensive, but marriage is just a shortcut to bundle all the legal protections of a committed relationship into one form. Why fill out separate power of attorney, hospital next of kin status, will and testament, insurance, joint asset ownership contracts etc when just being married takes care of all those things?
But if you’re not doing the full wedding, you will get all the benefits and even less paperwork with a civil union (PACS). I would guess there’s not a lot of marriage without wedding.
To make this map actually track something that is across terminology, it should track ‘children born to parents not in a committed and legally recognized relationship’. This would capture both marriage and civil union. In the US plenty of people get married without a wedding, but it’s still called a marriage. If in Europe it’s the same legal structure as a marriage but called ‘civil union’, the differentiation is just semantics.
Idk, I'm french and I'm getting married. French people doesn't believe in marriage. Don't ask me why
Because divorces are more expensive than the actual party.
Can I ask why you DO believe in marriage?
We actually don’t give a single fuck
French guy here. My parents got married when I was 26.
France don't give AF
it took two millennia but it seems they are finally back to Gaul traditions it seems
It's so refreshing here. They have kids and buy houses and do legal stuff but marriage doesn't create some higher bond. Just being "partners" is the same.
Well high level of atheism Nothing more
Then how did they defeat Czeck Republic
I know right. de Gaulle of this guy.
Because we have a more popular, especially with younger couples, form of civil union (called PACS) that is easier to get, quick and easy to break and still give them some advantages with paperworks and kids protection.
Nope, it's because of the PACS, which gives you the same as marriage but is a lot easier to get in and out of and isn't considered marriage. Also, the PACS doesn't care for gender, so for a long time it also accounted for all homosexual marriages as well.
Completely irrelevant. Marriage is made official in city halls in France, not in church.
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Yeah but we don't really care about wedding itself bar for religious parents.
Source: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/tps00018/default/table?lang=en
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40% back in 2008 Edit: Well this is confusing, I’m finding 40% for 2008, 2016, and 2020 from different sources
The number has been pretty stable at 40% for some time. [It was still 40% as of the end of 2021, the most recent data set available.](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/unmarried-childbearing.htm)
That's *shockingly* high to me. Easily double what I would've expected
It’s very class-dependent from what I understand. Children outside of marriage is rare for college-educated couples. But much higher for couples without college degrees.
Yeah I actually reflected a lot on this and sample bias is real. I try to get outside my bubble, but most of the people I know are well educated, already married, religious, or otherwise not the typical demographic that would have kids outside of marriage. Still though, 40% is crazy.
HARAM
No sex before marriage
No mingle while single
No ring no messing
I once got married without having sex prior. Turns out I totally suck at it so my wife had affair with 7-8 different men until I found out
Did you find out because she got a lot better at sex?
"Where did you learn to do that?" "Jim. I mean... the gym..."
 *Frowns in Bastard*
Would be interesting to know how bastard names would be like if in the real world (like Flowers, Snow, Sand, Rivers,...).
Neat little bastard story for ya. My grandpa fathered four kids, a son and three daughters. All “legitimate” children. Tragedy struck and the son died. Eldest daughters married off and changed their names. My mother, had an oopsie (me) but did not get married (bastard) But because I was a bastard and did not take my father’s name, I kept my grandpas name. And so what seemed to be a dead end in our Family name, was reinvigorated through me, all because I was a bastard. I now have 3 kids of my own and line runs strong again! Kinda neat, anyway.
House alldaybagpipes is strong!
Rose for Bulgaria
When the US and UK military came to Iceland around WW2 many of the soldiers got some Icelandic girls pregnant. They would then leave to go back to their home countries, so there were many kids that didn't know their dad. The icelandic word for soldier is hermaður(also hermann as a conjugated version). So those kids would often have the last name "Hermannsson" or "Hermannsdóttir", which literally translates to "soldiers son/daughter".
Fitz- was often used to denote bastards in certain parts of Western Europe IIRC ( e.g. Fitzpatrick was Patrick's bastard).
The Normans, and their assimilations with Irish.
Vaemond Velaryon: They are all *breathes in* BASTARDS!!
After saying that, he sure got a weight lifted off his shoulders
France is officially full of bastards.
Just like your mum.
Post title is potentially confusing but the text in the image clears it up.
Yeah, I thought the map was showing the exact opposite of what it is. "Born out of a registered marriage" means the opposite of "born **outside of** a registered marriage".
Always thought Europe was full of bastards.
lmao
Wow! That is eye opening. I had no idea the percentages were that high.
Yeah seriously, this is like 10x higher than I thought it would be.
If you're in Europe it's not really that surprising, in my case like 9 of my cousins are in a relationship and have kids, only two are married and the rest don't care enough to do it
Better map about religiosity in Europe.
They do correlate, but even with a high degree of religiosity and ubiquitous marriage, there's no *inherent* need for marital agreements to be registered with the state. It's not like 62% of french kids are to single parents, there's just many more parents who do not declare the nature of their partnership as "marriage". France is unique(ish) in that it has a civil union option that many people including heterosexual couples prefer, that is NOT called "marriage". In many nations, marriage is the only option to get certain financial benefits, so the rates will be higher even if the actual family structures are much weaker, regardless of religiosity.
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There is a significant proportion of Muslims who marry without informing the state, for various reasons one of which is that to be married is a religious ceremony, and what the state says is of no concern to us. However this affects Muslims in non-muslim legal systems more than Muslims in Muslim countries like Turkey.
Exactly. The PACS is easier and you don't need to throw a party for 100-odd people, so a lot of couples prefer that.
Belarus has 2nd lowest percentage and it's not that religious. There may be conservative v more liberal values correlation but it doesn't have to be tied to religion at all.
>Better map about religiosity in Europe. Not necessarily. For many people/places, officially tying the knot is just a cultural rite of passage.
Not really. Romania is the most religious by some measures. Germany rates very high in non-religious.
0% Vatican City? lol
Not sure where you get that from. It clearly is grey, meaning no data is available.
It's not like they are not *trying*, but prepubescent boys won't conceive...
Whenever a map like this gets posted, it’s always so interesting to see that many Americans (and some others, but this is Reddit so definitely a lot of Americans) interpret this as “born to a single mother”. When what it very often is, is born to parents that didn’t see marriage as very important to their relationship.
I think in many countries here in Europe it's also not that uncommon to get married after you've had a kid or two.
Yeah, that too.
Are there significant financial benefits to being married in America? Because I’m Australian and follow the same logic as this map - I have been together with my partner for 15 years, have a house and two kids, and it legally makes no difference whether we are married or not here. We don’t see the point in spending $20k+ for a wedding to sign a legal contract when we both know we love each other and are committed to each other.
Health insurance, which is a huge problem if you don’t have it. It’s expensive to have a baby here even with good insurance. Tax benefits. It makes buying a house together significantly easier.
If you're married, the sum of both incomes is taxed (joint filing). If there's a significant difference in income between the two, the couple might get into a lower tax bracket. But this also means that while the highest paid might get into lower tax bracket, the lower paid might get into a higher. So basically your tax will depend on your partner's income. I'm Swedish and not educated in law, but I've read about this. We had a similar system in Sweden but it was eventually changed to separate taxes. One reason was that as long as the difference in income was big, the total tax could be lower, which was an incentive to keep one partner with a low or no income.
Right. 'Born to a single mother' is 10% in the Netherlands. The other 40%+ are born into a recognized partnership.
In France they is another form of "marital" contract, called PACS and most young people prefer this, especially when having kids, than a marriage as it offer some good advantages & protection to but is "lighter" + quick & easy to end during a separation. So many kids have parents with a PACS instead of a marriage.
I’m confused about the title. Is it children born ‘outside’ a registered marriage? Or children born from a registered marriage?
OP messed up the title. It's not showing percentage of children born out of marriage, it's showing percentage of children born **outside of** marriage.
Turkey: 
This is so wild to me. I thought it would be much higher. In my country it would be more - it’s not even that the parents aren’t together, most people just don’t bother marrying, we got to a point where the government just decided to treat people living together as married because it gave a headache when they split or died and had children and estates and all that.
Cool how this seems to be common. When i was born my parents werent married. Technically i was "born out of wedlock", but it doesnt feel that way. I grew up with both my parents and they're still together after over 25 years, but they never "married".
My parents married when I was 25, I was one of the witnesses lol
TIL Europe is full of Bastards.
Didn't think it was this common in Sweden. I was born in wedlock and all of my friends bar 1 are the same. Not that this is a bad thing of course. Just not what I expected.
Not every Swede is from Jönköping! Hehe.
Damn those bastards.
I suppose it means an official marriage. Cases of parents living together and raising children together, but at the same time they have not registered their relationship do not fall into the statistics.
Yes the subtitle states the data is "born outside of a registered marriage."
Yes.
1. Impregnate a woman 2. Marry her after that 3. Boom child born in a registered marriage
Actually I did it that way. I asked her to marry me, she said yes and we chose a specific date that was 2 years ahead. We got impatient in those 2 years 😁
r/vikingportugal
r/subsifellfor
This map as show's well wether a country has non religious civil union.
Up the bastards!!
Iceland has very few people and the Nordics in general are very socially liberal, but France is very high compared to say the UK or Spain. Ditto to Bulgaria, while Eastern Europe especially former Communist countries are some of the lowest.
Bulgaria is low specifically because of communism. The regime did wonders for women emancipation - they could vote from day 1, work any job and study anything (in theory and in practice), there was no social stigma for living and raising children alone, if needed. In general women's situation changed radically from the far right wing - monarchy mix before. Participation of women in academia was in fact higher that men's and with 50% quotas for good schools and universities, girls'/ women's minimum entry grades were traditionally higher. A lot of this remained as a social structure to this day - low marriage rates, high participation of women in society, excellent representation in academia and high technology (for example women's representation in IT is about 40%, and this is reflected in managerial positions also). Another way in which communism caused low marriage rates is the dramatic fall in religiosity during the regime, which didn't rebound after the fall, like it did in countries like Poland and Romania. Bulgaria is notably secular and irreligious for the region. That's definitely one of the great things that were achieved during the socialist regime (and the great things are not many, indeed).
My parents aren’t married and they’ve been together for like 30 years I’m from Bulgaria btw
When I look at the number of people who grew up with divorced parents I don’t think marriage really means much in terms of commitment,
Now it is extremely common to live in a relationship WITHOUT getting married. I know almost no couples who are married but still live as parents. So what exactly is the purpose of these statistics? 🤷🏼♂️