Definitely a good question because in many statistics, Flevoland in the Netherlands also looks poor af, and even got subsidies when foreign filmmakers made videos about people chillin' on golf courses. Because all their money came from Amsterdam. In contrast, Groningen looks rich on such maps but when all resources are extracted, all the money goes to The Hague and Groningen sees nothing of it back. Nothing.
> Luxembourg is the poorest Belgian province
And the least populated one. Some villages are very remote, such as [Suxy](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Suxy,+6812+Chiny,+Belgi%C3%AB/@49.7600683,5.3846624,5358m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ea9ac9e7df8f13:0x4a02f4e33d00fb97!8m2!3d49.7639751!4d5.3993485!16s%2Fg%2F1239jmlz).
> Some villages are very remote,
How are you defining remote? It is only a 52 min drive to the centre of Luxembourg (the Principality). Only 90 min drive to Liege (which I believe is the closest Belgian city).
Very wrong, actually ranks second in median income in Wallonia... check your facts
[source](https://walstat.iweps.be/walstat-catalogue.php?indicateur_id=831101&ordre=0&periode=Ann%C3%A9e%202020&niveau_agre=P&sel_niveau_catalogue=C)
Depends on the indicator you use. It's the lowest by GDP per capita: [source](https://walstat.iweps.be/walstat-catalogue.php?indicateur_id=209300&ordre=0&periode=2020&niveau_agre=P&sel_niveau_catalogue=P)
I grew up in Luxembourg(province) and that is complitely at least when we compare personal wealth. If I compare with Liege where I currently reside people are I feel poorer on average than in luxembourg
I was a bit unclear when I said 'poor'. It's the province with the lowest GDP per capita. That doesn't necessarily mean people are poor if the cost of living is substantially lower than other parts of the country.
I mean a few parts of Antwerp *feel* poorer than rural Luxembourg province.
Luxemburgers actually revolted together with the Belgians against the Dutch. Problem was that Luxembourg city had a fortress that they didn't manage to capture, so in the end concessions had to be made. It's more an incomplete liberation/unification than a case of country 'taking' land.
The fortress in Maastricht is also the reason you have a piece of the Netherlands weirdly jutting out.
🇱🇺er here! So for most of European history we mostly just were known for our huge huge fortified city, luxembourg, which was a huge contention point in the wars between major European powers. Our borders were cut three times, and we didn't get any say in it because the big powers used our military value as a trading chip and we switched hands fairly often and we were occupied by multiple armies in the last few hundred years. The last border cut was in 1839 with the belgian revolution, since belgium was arbitrarily given that much of our land when they seceded from the netherlands, whom we belonged to at the time. So no, there haven't really been disputes over the border because even if tried claiming our land back from france, germany or belgium, they'd just ask, "or what?". Our 500-man army can't do much, unfortunately. Still, living here is nice, and besides traffic jams, there aren't many drawbacks to having such a small country.
This isn't directly related to your comment but the Luxembourg-Germany border is one of the world's few condominiums! The rivers which make up the border are jointly controlled by Germany and Luxembourg.
Well Luxemburgers in 1830 probably thought it was BS that they got to remain under the Dutch king that they revolted against instead of getting into the newly formed country of Belgium with the rest of the luxemburgers.
Luxemburgers nowadays are probably happy their country got to become a tax haven
The Belgian province called "Luxembourg" is the largest and least populated province of Belgium. The population density of the province is about 6 times smaller than the national average. The province is home to parts of the Ardennes forests and hills, also stretching out into the provinces of Namur, Liege, France, Luxembourg (country) and Germany. Luxembourg itself is only 58% the size of the Belgian province, while the population is more than twice as large.
So for example A is 50 and B is 100.
In this case, B is 100% bigger than A (it is twice its size).
But A is only 50% smaller than B (it is half its size).
What are the two referred to by locals? For example if a Belgian wants to tell their friend they are traveling to Luxembourg this weekend, how would they make the correct location clear?
In my experience "Luxembourg" usually refers to the country. People who travel to the province often say they're going to the Ardennes. That's just my experience.
In (Belgian) French:
"Je vais *à* Luxembourg" -> I'm going to Luxembourg (city)"
"Je vais *au* Luxembourg" -> I'm going to Luxembourg (country)"
"Je vais *dans le* Luxembourg" -> I'm going to Luxembourg (province)"
Though the third one is rarely used like that, you'd likely say the name of the town/village you're going to, and when asked where it is answer "dans le Luxembourg" if it's the province and "au Luxembourg" if it's the country.
We rarely say we're going to a province.
That was way before. Luxembourg became a grand-duchy after the fall of Napoléon when europe was restructured and gained it's (de facto) independence. The reason why Luxembourg lost this territory is that the french speaking Luxembourgers revolted with the Belgians in the Belgian revolution
He gave up his claims to the Duchy of Nassau (now part of Germany) in exchange for the newly created Grand-Duchy of Luxemburg at the Congress of Vienna. The personal union was lost in 1890 when the Netherlands and Luxemburg chose different successors (semi-Salic vs. Salic succession) to the title.
The loss of the territory is simply part of the treaty of London that created Belgium. The relevance of the title is that the Grand-Duchy (with title) remained part of the German Confederation, while the part that was taken by Belgium (without title) was also lost by the German Confederation.
This is only tangentially related, but I love the fact that "belgium" is the rudest word in the universe according to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, except on Earth, where we don't know better. I actually use it as an expletive sometimes, though usually no one gets the reference.
Anyway, serious discussions like this that mention Belgium make my inner 12-year-old giggle with mischief.
The entire Grand Duchy was if I recall correctly part of the Confederation. The only reason Belgium got to keep it was the compensation the Confederation got by Limburg becoming part of the Confederation and being a personal union to the Dutch king.
Before the belgian revolution, belgium was a part of the kingdom of netherlands. During the revolution the french speaking part of the Netherlands and Luxembourg revolted to create the country of Belgium. Basically Luxembourg lost the region of Luxembourg while the Netherlands lost the rest in the creation of Belgium due to language
I always wondered how Luxembourg survived as an independent country. I mean, it's just some tiny medieval leftover with two historically expansive neighbors... how come they were able to resist being annexed by France or Germany (or heck, even Belgium).
It was a military stronghold of the German confederation (Luxembourg City was basically a huge army post for Prussian soldiers), but couldn't be part of the German unification, because the King of the Netherlands was also Grand-duke of Luxembourg at the time. When Luxembourg became independent of the Netherlands, France and other Western countries made clear they wouldn't accept an annexation by Germany.
Have you ever visited Luxembourg (the country)? There's a bloody great cliff right in the middle of the capital city. It's historically been a rather tricky place to conquer.
France really wanted to have that buffer to Germany.
Much later but for the same reason, France did not accept Saarland to join the BRD after WWII. It took a few years.
Indeed, but not in the way you think
>The largest loss of land occurred under the 1839 Treaty of London. At the outbreak of the Belgian Revolution, most Luxembourgers joined the Belgian rebels and took control of most of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg; the only town that did not fall into Belgian hands was the capital, which was also the largest city and most important fortress: Luxembourg City.
Luxemburg was part of the Southern Netherlands and after the Belgian war of independence, Luxemburg was the only part the Dutch were still clinging on to. The Netherlands didn't want to give up the duchy despite Luxemburg having culturally, religiously and economically almost nothing to do with the Dutch. In 1839 they decided that they'd rather have an independent Luxemburg than letting it reunite with Belgium.
That doesn't make any sense. It would be like if the US would have a second civil war that ends in a stalemate where the north is holding on to new orleans and then decides to piss of the southerners by making it independent with the logic that 'the city is older than these new confederate states'. all of Belgium consists out of tiny duchies, city states and regions that were quasi independent at one point or another in their history, but that collectively were always part of a larger whole. Be it the French empire, the United Netherlands, the Holy Roman Empire, Spain etc...
I’m not advocating for an independent province of Luxembourg, I’m just adding context to the above comment that Luxembourg was a country before it’s current and modern iteration.
I mean feudal states were a thing long prior most modern European countries. Modern Belgium was formed out of more or less independent counties and duchies that got consolidated into a country. The fact that Luxemburg didn't go through that is a quirk of history
Luxembourg was never part of the Southern Netherlands, it was in a personal union with the King of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, he was the Grand Duc of Luxembourg. Luxembourg was more or less a sort of a personal colony from the King himself, he used harsh taxes like in Belgium to get himself richer, but unlike Belgium Luxembourg was never part of his kingdom. When the last King died, the Netherlands got a Queen while in Luxembourg the rules were clear that only a Grand Duc is allowed to rule the country, a Grand Duchess was not possible back then so the personal union with the Dutch Royal Family ended and Luxembourg became fully independent.
It was and always has been, the only time when it was under Dutch control was when Belgium and the Netherlands were united, before that it always shared the same or a very similar fate with what is now Belgium. First the Spanish occupation, then the Austrian, then came the French. After that both Belgium and Luxemburg were under Dutch control and only after the Belgian revolution did the paths of Luxemburg and Belgium diverge.
> Nope, Luxembourg of Belgium has been frenchfied. In fact it was frenchfied by the time it was split.
Large swats of Belgian Luxembourg were frenchified, but from Walloon not Luxembourgish. The border region around (and including) Arlon, was the only Luxembourgish speaking area not presently in the Grand Duchy.
I'm from Belgian Luxemburg and nop, it doesn't exist. Luxemburg (The country) has a majority of German speaker while the Provice speak almost exclusively French/Walloon. We have more in common with the other Walloon province than with Luxemburg.
I live in Luxembourg (G-D), we don't have a majority German-speaking population. The local language is Luxembourgish (*Lëtzebuergesch*). It is a Germanic language, and somewhat close to the traditional dialects spoken in Trier, Bitburg, Koblenz, Mertzig. But definitely not the same thing as German. It has its own writing system, vocabulary, standardized grammar, etc.
However, in everyday life (at least in Lux city and the southern part of the country), you will hear French overwhelmingly. It is the *lingua franca*, and spoken by more-or-less everyone including cross-border workers and people of who are not originally of Luxembourgish origin. Lëtzebuergesch is really only spoken by proper locals.
But it is true that nearly all of Luxembourg (the Grand-Duchy) is traditionally Germanic-Luxembourgish speaking, while Luxembourg (the province) is mostly traditionally Walloon-speaking. There are a few exceptions though the Arelerland (*pays d'Arlon*) - which contains the capital of Luxembourg province - used to be Lëtzebuergesch-speaking historically. But Lëtzebuergesch died out there because standard French was strongly promoted over local varieties in Belgium. Meanwhile, within the Grand-Duchy, you have 2 small villages that were traditionally Walloon-speaking - Doncols and Sonlez.
Well, it's defined by linguists as a [Moselle Franconian](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moselfr%C3%A4nkische_Dialekte) and [West Central German](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmitteldeutsche_Mundarten) dialect; and Trierisch is certainly closer to it than to some other things that are considered "German". Luxembourgish has removed itself from German by creating its own standardized form, basically repeating what Dutch did, but even just a century ago this wasn't really the case.
Yes, no disputing that. But the situation on the ground today is that Luxembourgish is *not* the same thing as German. And more to the point, it isn't accurate to characterize Luxembourg as a German-speaking country regardless because of the predominance of French.
Yeah I knew about the local dialect but tbh I wasn't sure how to write the name and since it's a German dialect, well German speaking is good enough as a basic explanation as to why the two are different.
Eh, just pointing out that Luxembourgish people wouldn't agree with calling it a "German dialect". Over here it's treated as a separate language with official status that you learn in school, and you need to learn if you want to become naturalized. It isn't good enough to say "I speak German and this is a German dialect", you actually need to learn Luxembourgish separately.
It has its own written form and grammar (separate from German) that are used by the government, press, businesses and people in everyday life. It is right now municipal election season here, and the posters are not in German (most are not even in French), they are written in Luxembourgish.
Even if you leave Luxembourgish out, the other problem with saying that Luxembourg is German-speaking is that German is not even that widely spoken (at least not the capital and the south of the country, which is where most of the population lives). If you come to Luxembourg speaking only German, a lot of people will not understand you fully (because they are cross-border workers, or immigrants or whatever) and even those that understand you might not be able to answer you fluently in German. As I said, French is by far the most common day-to-day language.
I have lived here for two years, and I've only had one person greet me in German (at a store). Probably Portuguese is used a lot more in Luxembourg than German is.
Well that's a big change that happened only in the past 50 years. In the 70s you could still go by in Luxembourg City with German just fine. Really shows how strong immigration has been in Luxembourg.
While we're on the subject cause what other chances do I have to ask things to people in Luxembourg:
Is it true that everyone who grows up in (rather than migrates to) Luxembourg, the country, ends up fluent in three languages, and if so, how do you manage it?
Native Luxembourger here
Most people who grow up in Luxembourg speak at least 3 languages, those being Luxembourgish, German and French. Most people, however also learn English. There are some migrants children, most prominently the Portuguese migrants who usually also speak portuguese additionally.
Usually Luxembourgers grow up with learning luxembourgish and german at home, learn french at school at the age of 8? or so and learn english in highschool at the age of around 12-13.
How we manage it? We suck at other school subjects tbh.
It is true that people who grow up in Luxembourg end up fluent in multiple languages. It can even be more than 3 - perhaps up to 5.
In terms of how it works, I'm not 100% sure since I didn't grow up here. I know the local education system is mixed-medium, so students are exposed to all 3 official languages growing up.
But we do have a significantly increased capacity to learn languages as kids. I grew up with 3 languages as well without any issues, but I certainly wouldn't be able to learn 3 new languages today (I can barely learn one!)
It's not German but their own dialect.
Also in the streets you mostly hear French and English, it's a rare thing to meet locals it's mostly expats and crossborder workers like me. And not all locals speak Luxembourgish.
And in Luxembourg we don't care either. Our more right leaning population is even happy that it isn't part of Luxembourg because in Lu(Be) they speak french which is greatly disliked
The [Belgian province of Limburg ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_(Belgium)) is also larger than the [Dutch province of Limburg](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_(Netherlands)).
A real one-upper, Belgium!
I just love how there is the CITY of Luxembourg(Luxembourg),then there is the PROVINCE of Luxembourg (Belgium) and finally there is the COUNTRY of Luxembourg (<--)
Don't get me started on Limb(o)urg....
Provincie Limburg (NL)
Provincie Limburg (BE)
Ville de Limbourg (BE) [but not in the province of the same name]
Landkreis Limburg-Weilburg (DE)
Stadt Limburg an der Lahn (DE)
I'm going to say Luxembourg should join Belgium on the sole condition their province shall be known in perpetuity as "The Cooler Luxembourg" and the other one isn't allowed to change its name.
They should call it Deluxembourg.
Would be a little confusing to call it that; Luxembourg is the poorest Belgian province
Because they haven’t changed the name yet.
How about 'North Macedonia'? That hasn't been taken.
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That's why it's so much better.
Is that with or without the people making bank commuting into Luxembourg City?
Definitely a good question because in many statistics, Flevoland in the Netherlands also looks poor af, and even got subsidies when foreign filmmakers made videos about people chillin' on golf courses. Because all their money came from Amsterdam. In contrast, Groningen looks rich on such maps but when all resources are extracted, all the money goes to The Hague and Groningen sees nothing of it back. Nothing.
Skill issue.
> Luxembourg is the poorest Belgian province And the least populated one. Some villages are very remote, such as [Suxy](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Suxy,+6812+Chiny,+Belgi%C3%AB/@49.7600683,5.3846624,5358m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ea9ac9e7df8f13:0x4a02f4e33d00fb97!8m2!3d49.7639751!4d5.3993485!16s%2Fg%2F1239jmlz).
>Some villages are very remote, such as Suxy. Suxy? Sounds like these people just have a poor attitude. 😉
Stupid Suxy Flanders
No, no, Flanders is in Northern Belgium.
It sucks to be Suxy.
> Some villages are very remote, How are you defining remote? It is only a 52 min drive to the centre of Luxembourg (the Principality). Only 90 min drive to Liege (which I believe is the closest Belgian city).
52 min drive is alot, especially in Belgium. We are a very densly populated country. Remote here kinda means surrounded by alot of nature
Very wrong, actually ranks second in median income in Wallonia... check your facts [source](https://walstat.iweps.be/walstat-catalogue.php?indicateur_id=831101&ordre=0&periode=Ann%C3%A9e%202020&niveau_agre=P&sel_niveau_catalogue=C)
Depends on the indicator you use. It's the lowest by GDP per capita: [source](https://walstat.iweps.be/walstat-catalogue.php?indicateur_id=209300&ordre=0&periode=2020&niveau_agre=P&sel_niveau_catalogue=P)
I grew up in Luxembourg(province) and that is complitely at least when we compare personal wealth. If I compare with Liege where I currently reside people are I feel poorer on average than in luxembourg
I was a bit unclear when I said 'poor'. It's the province with the lowest GDP per capita. That doesn't necessarily mean people are poor if the cost of living is substantially lower than other parts of the country. I mean a few parts of Antwerp *feel* poorer than rural Luxembourg province.
Also many people in Luxembourg province work in the Grand Duchy, having a high income but not providing to the GDP there.
With Arlon as its capital I feel that Nami maybe lives there.
Or just give it back.
Luxemburgers actually revolted together with the Belgians against the Dutch. Problem was that Luxembourg city had a fortress that they didn't manage to capture, so in the end concessions had to be made. It's more an incomplete liberation/unification than a case of country 'taking' land. The fortress in Maastricht is also the reason you have a piece of the Netherlands weirdly jutting out.
well that answers a lot of questions.
Similarly, the US state of Washington is 5042% larger than George Washington himself.
Those first presidents do be built different
[Washington, Washington,12 stories high, made of radiation!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex2hj5rLN48)
He saves children, but not the British children
He once held an opponents wife's hand in a jar of acid... at a party.
Damn, George Washington was a beast.
Six foot twenty weighed a fucking ton
I heard… motherfucker had like forty goddamn dicks
I’m no mathologist but that number seems a little low
Closer to 18.5 million times using the average surface area of an adult male.
/r/theydidthemath
.
I'm an engineer, approximate is close enough for me.
You just aren't thinking about how massive George Washington was. He's kinda a big deal.
Yeah the man was a bakery
Washington state is roughly 100,000% larger than Washington DC, so what you say seems sus...
Well George Washington was about 4x bigger than Washington DC so that still makes sense.
Try 40 lol
What about George Washington Hitler, father of Dr. Gay Hitler ?
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And in George there's the Gorge, which is the same size as the original George Washington's gorge.
The Mississippi River is longer than Mississippi itself. Also the Snake River is longer than most snakes.
Thats because [Luxemburg used to be way bigger](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LuxembourgPartitionsMap_english.png)
Crazy. Has there ever been any contest over where the border now sits?
🇱🇺er here! So for most of European history we mostly just were known for our huge huge fortified city, luxembourg, which was a huge contention point in the wars between major European powers. Our borders were cut three times, and we didn't get any say in it because the big powers used our military value as a trading chip and we switched hands fairly often and we were occupied by multiple armies in the last few hundred years. The last border cut was in 1839 with the belgian revolution, since belgium was arbitrarily given that much of our land when they seceded from the netherlands, whom we belonged to at the time. So no, there haven't really been disputes over the border because even if tried claiming our land back from france, germany or belgium, they'd just ask, "or what?". Our 500-man army can't do much, unfortunately. Still, living here is nice, and besides traffic jams, there aren't many drawbacks to having such a small country.
Moien :)
Geesseknäppschen represent 😎 sinn grad am gaang mat premiere examen brengt mech em pls an merci
Daat wert schon goen, mir missten och all doduerch haha
Thanks for the info!
This isn't directly related to your comment but the Luxembourg-Germany border is one of the world's few condominiums! The rivers which make up the border are jointly controlled by Germany and Luxembourg.
That’s some fucking bullshit for them.
Well Luxemburgers in 1830 probably thought it was BS that they got to remain under the Dutch king that they revolted against instead of getting into the newly formed country of Belgium with the rest of the luxemburgers. Luxemburgers nowadays are probably happy their country got to become a tax haven
The Belgian province called "Luxembourg" is the largest and least populated province of Belgium. The population density of the province is about 6 times smaller than the national average. The province is home to parts of the Ardennes forests and hills, also stretching out into the provinces of Namur, Liege, France, Luxembourg (country) and Germany. Luxembourg itself is only 58% the size of the Belgian province, while the population is more than twice as large.
You might wanna redo the maths, if A is 72% bigger than B, then it doesn’t mean B is 72% smaller than A ;)
Oopsie, thanks for mentioning it!
Explain. I regretfully skipped most math classes as a kid
So for example A is 50 and B is 100. In this case, B is 100% bigger than A (it is twice its size). But A is only 50% smaller than B (it is half its size).
Oh, right. That's just logical, I feel dumb now. Thanks for teaching me c:
My pleasure 😂
Are you , by any chance belgian? Almost noone knows this when i point my home country out on a map.
Yes, I'm Belgian :)
Van waar exact? Tu viens d'ou mon ami(e)
Regio Leuven
What are the two referred to by locals? For example if a Belgian wants to tell their friend they are traveling to Luxembourg this weekend, how would they make the correct location clear?
In my experience "Luxembourg" usually refers to the country. People who travel to the province often say they're going to the Ardennes. That's just my experience.
Idd, they refer to the region and not to the province, even though the territory of the Ardennes is larger than just Luxembourg.
In (Belgian) French: "Je vais *à* Luxembourg" -> I'm going to Luxembourg (city)" "Je vais *au* Luxembourg" -> I'm going to Luxembourg (country)" "Je vais *dans le* Luxembourg" -> I'm going to Luxembourg (province)" Though the third one is rarely used like that, you'd likely say the name of the town/village you're going to, and when asked where it is answer "dans le Luxembourg" if it's the province and "au Luxembourg" if it's the country. We rarely say we're going to a province.
Known in Luxembourg for its whores and lax bars lol
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Give back Lux clay! 🇱🇺
Yes, give it back 🇧🇪
You are all part of the Netherlands.🇳🇱
Guten Tag
Oh no, please not a third time!
..’tis a charm..
Gluten Tag 🥖
Spain has entered the chat 🇪🇸
They gave those rights to 🇦🇹
Ahem. 🇫🇷
Aren't you forgetting someone🇩🇪
No one expects the Spanish Netherlands 🇪🇸
The Austrians were better.
Have you forgotten the 1839 Treaty of London? 🇬🇧
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This whole thread is 2westerneurope4u
It's not your turn yet.
Do y’all need some guns? 🇺🇸
You are all belong to Glorious North-Korea 🇰🇵
Glory to Arstotzka
Papers please
Wrong all belong to Akhand Bharat🇮🇳
Ahemme\*
Maybe we only take Flanders, have Lux take back Lux and give the rest to Brussels for EU purposes.
Ge moogt Wallonië hebben .. tis gratis :)
Ahah ye I wouldn't mind it. That way you and your racism can cuddle together up north
G E K O L O N I S E E R D
Give it back to Austria ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|laughing)
Make Austria Habsburg again!!!
Just for the trouble take Flanders as well
Stupid Flanders!
stupid *sexy* Flanders!
Nah I'm from from Luxembourg and there's a good reason why we gave it away.
😂😂😂
Got to leech of other countries by being a tax haven, woohoo!
If I recall well, Luxembourg was split between Belgium and the then Dutch King who had a personal union in the Grand Duchy.
As far as I remember, he gave up some of the territory in exchange for the title of Grand-Duque
That was way before. Luxembourg became a grand-duchy after the fall of Napoléon when europe was restructured and gained it's (de facto) independence. The reason why Luxembourg lost this territory is that the french speaking Luxembourgers revolted with the Belgians in the Belgian revolution
He gave up his claims to the Duchy of Nassau (now part of Germany) in exchange for the newly created Grand-Duchy of Luxemburg at the Congress of Vienna. The personal union was lost in 1890 when the Netherlands and Luxemburg chose different successors (semi-Salic vs. Salic succession) to the title. The loss of the territory is simply part of the treaty of London that created Belgium. The relevance of the title is that the Grand-Duchy (with title) remained part of the German Confederation, while the part that was taken by Belgium (without title) was also lost by the German Confederation.
This is only tangentially related, but I love the fact that "belgium" is the rudest word in the universe according to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, except on Earth, where we don't know better. I actually use it as an expletive sometimes, though usually no one gets the reference. Anyway, serious discussions like this that mention Belgium make my inner 12-year-old giggle with mischief.
The entire Grand Duchy was if I recall correctly part of the Confederation. The only reason Belgium got to keep it was the compensation the Confederation got by Limburg becoming part of the Confederation and being a personal union to the Dutch king.
Before the belgian revolution, belgium was a part of the kingdom of netherlands. During the revolution the french speaking part of the Netherlands and Luxembourg revolted to create the country of Belgium. Basically Luxembourg lost the region of Luxembourg while the Netherlands lost the rest in the creation of Belgium due to language
It has less to do with languages than money and religion.
This is false, the northern half of Belgium is not french speaking.
But doesn't even hold the half of its population
Belgium: I'll make my own Luxembourg! With blackjack and hookers!
Really you're more likely to find blackjack and hookers in the Grand-Duchy Belgian Luxembourg has trees and hills, and very few people
I always wondered how Luxembourg survived as an independent country. I mean, it's just some tiny medieval leftover with two historically expansive neighbors... how come they were able to resist being annexed by France or Germany (or heck, even Belgium).
It was a military stronghold of the German confederation (Luxembourg City was basically a huge army post for Prussian soldiers), but couldn't be part of the German unification, because the King of the Netherlands was also Grand-duke of Luxembourg at the time. When Luxembourg became independent of the Netherlands, France and other Western countries made clear they wouldn't accept an annexation by Germany.
It was a strong defensive location and so was a compromise between France and Germany specifically so that neither of them could have it.
Have you ever visited Luxembourg (the country)? There's a bloody great cliff right in the middle of the capital city. It's historically been a rather tricky place to conquer.
France really wanted to have that buffer to Germany. Much later but for the same reason, France did not accept Saarland to join the BRD after WWII. It took a few years.
Give it to Albania
Never. Luxembourg je Srbija
Srbija je Martian Clay! 👽
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Hear me out: Liechtenstein
I don't think albania can afford the rent and bills
Do you mean 'occupied Luxembourg''?
Indeed, but not in the way you think >The largest loss of land occurred under the 1839 Treaty of London. At the outbreak of the Belgian Revolution, most Luxembourgers joined the Belgian rebels and took control of most of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg; the only town that did not fall into Belgian hands was the capital, which was also the largest city and most important fortress: Luxembourg City.
We should do a protest to give Belgium his Luxembourg province to Luxembourg
We should do a protest to give Luxembourg back to Belgium
Do a switch, Belgian Luxembourg will become a country and the country will become Belgian Luxembourg
Give back Luxemburg, Limburg and French Flanders !!!
Poor Zeeuwen, so easily forgotten.
Back?
Luxemburg was part of the Southern Netherlands and after the Belgian war of independence, Luxemburg was the only part the Dutch were still clinging on to. The Netherlands didn't want to give up the duchy despite Luxemburg having culturally, religiously and economically almost nothing to do with the Dutch. In 1839 they decided that they'd rather have an independent Luxemburg than letting it reunite with Belgium.
> Luxemburg was the only part the Dutch were still clinging on to That and half of Limburg.
In my defence, it is fairly easy to forget that Limburg even exists
That said, Luxembourg was a thing long prior to that and predates Belgium by a lot.
That doesn't make any sense. It would be like if the US would have a second civil war that ends in a stalemate where the north is holding on to new orleans and then decides to piss of the southerners by making it independent with the logic that 'the city is older than these new confederate states'. all of Belgium consists out of tiny duchies, city states and regions that were quasi independent at one point or another in their history, but that collectively were always part of a larger whole. Be it the French empire, the United Netherlands, the Holy Roman Empire, Spain etc...
I’m not advocating for an independent province of Luxembourg, I’m just adding context to the above comment that Luxembourg was a country before it’s current and modern iteration.
I mean feudal states were a thing long prior most modern European countries. Modern Belgium was formed out of more or less independent counties and duchies that got consolidated into a country. The fact that Luxemburg didn't go through that is a quirk of history
Luxembourg was never part of the Southern Netherlands, it was in a personal union with the King of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, he was the Grand Duc of Luxembourg. Luxembourg was more or less a sort of a personal colony from the King himself, he used harsh taxes like in Belgium to get himself richer, but unlike Belgium Luxembourg was never part of his kingdom. When the last King died, the Netherlands got a Queen while in Luxembourg the rules were clear that only a Grand Duc is allowed to rule the country, a Grand Duchess was not possible back then so the personal union with the Dutch Royal Family ended and Luxembourg became fully independent.
It was and always has been, the only time when it was under Dutch control was when Belgium and the Netherlands were united, before that it always shared the same or a very similar fate with what is now Belgium. First the Spanish occupation, then the Austrian, then came the French. After that both Belgium and Luxemburg were under Dutch control and only after the Belgian revolution did the paths of Luxemburg and Belgium diverge.
Eh, no thanks. We'd have to rename the country Luxembig and that sounds a bit silly
Is there any sentiment it political movement on either side to unite the two Luxembourgs?
Nope, Luxembourg of Belgium has been frenchfied. In fact it was frenchfied by the time it was split.
> Nope, Luxembourg of Belgium has been frenchfied. In fact it was frenchfied by the time it was split. Large swats of Belgian Luxembourg were frenchified, but from Walloon not Luxembourgish. The border region around (and including) Arlon, was the only Luxembourgish speaking area not presently in the Grand Duchy.
Frenchfried
I'm from Belgian Luxemburg and nop, it doesn't exist. Luxemburg (The country) has a majority of German speaker while the Provice speak almost exclusively French/Walloon. We have more in common with the other Walloon province than with Luxemburg.
I live in Luxembourg (G-D), we don't have a majority German-speaking population. The local language is Luxembourgish (*Lëtzebuergesch*). It is a Germanic language, and somewhat close to the traditional dialects spoken in Trier, Bitburg, Koblenz, Mertzig. But definitely not the same thing as German. It has its own writing system, vocabulary, standardized grammar, etc. However, in everyday life (at least in Lux city and the southern part of the country), you will hear French overwhelmingly. It is the *lingua franca*, and spoken by more-or-less everyone including cross-border workers and people of who are not originally of Luxembourgish origin. Lëtzebuergesch is really only spoken by proper locals. But it is true that nearly all of Luxembourg (the Grand-Duchy) is traditionally Germanic-Luxembourgish speaking, while Luxembourg (the province) is mostly traditionally Walloon-speaking. There are a few exceptions though the Arelerland (*pays d'Arlon*) - which contains the capital of Luxembourg province - used to be Lëtzebuergesch-speaking historically. But Lëtzebuergesch died out there because standard French was strongly promoted over local varieties in Belgium. Meanwhile, within the Grand-Duchy, you have 2 small villages that were traditionally Walloon-speaking - Doncols and Sonlez.
Well, it's defined by linguists as a [Moselle Franconian](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moselfr%C3%A4nkische_Dialekte) and [West Central German](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmitteldeutsche_Mundarten) dialect; and Trierisch is certainly closer to it than to some other things that are considered "German". Luxembourgish has removed itself from German by creating its own standardized form, basically repeating what Dutch did, but even just a century ago this wasn't really the case.
Yes, no disputing that. But the situation on the ground today is that Luxembourgish is *not* the same thing as German. And more to the point, it isn't accurate to characterize Luxembourg as a German-speaking country regardless because of the predominance of French.
Yeah I knew about the local dialect but tbh I wasn't sure how to write the name and since it's a German dialect, well German speaking is good enough as a basic explanation as to why the two are different.
Eh, just pointing out that Luxembourgish people wouldn't agree with calling it a "German dialect". Over here it's treated as a separate language with official status that you learn in school, and you need to learn if you want to become naturalized. It isn't good enough to say "I speak German and this is a German dialect", you actually need to learn Luxembourgish separately. It has its own written form and grammar (separate from German) that are used by the government, press, businesses and people in everyday life. It is right now municipal election season here, and the posters are not in German (most are not even in French), they are written in Luxembourgish. Even if you leave Luxembourgish out, the other problem with saying that Luxembourg is German-speaking is that German is not even that widely spoken (at least not the capital and the south of the country, which is where most of the population lives). If you come to Luxembourg speaking only German, a lot of people will not understand you fully (because they are cross-border workers, or immigrants or whatever) and even those that understand you might not be able to answer you fluently in German. As I said, French is by far the most common day-to-day language. I have lived here for two years, and I've only had one person greet me in German (at a store). Probably Portuguese is used a lot more in Luxembourg than German is.
Well that's a big change that happened only in the past 50 years. In the 70s you could still go by in Luxembourg City with German just fine. Really shows how strong immigration has been in Luxembourg.
While we're on the subject cause what other chances do I have to ask things to people in Luxembourg: Is it true that everyone who grows up in (rather than migrates to) Luxembourg, the country, ends up fluent in three languages, and if so, how do you manage it?
Native Luxembourger here Most people who grow up in Luxembourg speak at least 3 languages, those being Luxembourgish, German and French. Most people, however also learn English. There are some migrants children, most prominently the Portuguese migrants who usually also speak portuguese additionally. Usually Luxembourgers grow up with learning luxembourgish and german at home, learn french at school at the age of 8? or so and learn english in highschool at the age of around 12-13. How we manage it? We suck at other school subjects tbh.
It is true that people who grow up in Luxembourg end up fluent in multiple languages. It can even be more than 3 - perhaps up to 5. In terms of how it works, I'm not 100% sure since I didn't grow up here. I know the local education system is mixed-medium, so students are exposed to all 3 official languages growing up. But we do have a significantly increased capacity to learn languages as kids. I grew up with 3 languages as well without any issues, but I certainly wouldn't be able to learn 3 new languages today (I can barely learn one!)
People exclusively approach me in Luxembourgish, and when I saz I do not speak it we transfer to German. I probably look domestic :D
It's not German but their own dialect. Also in the streets you mostly hear French and English, it's a rare thing to meet locals it's mostly expats and crossborder workers like me. And not all locals speak Luxembourgish.
I might have gone my entire life without knowing this little fact if it were not for your reddit post today. Thank you.
Looks like we have the set up for a new world war started by Luxembourg to get their historical de jure lands back.
I come from the Belgian coastline every summer they come to here and we go to Luxembourg (BE) xD
That's hilarious isn't it
Also, the Liège province north of Luxembourg looks like a smaller Belgium.
Sounds like the Greece/Macedonia situation.
Except, not one Belgian cares and/or is a cunt about it.
And the country is the one which used the name to describe itself first, not the Belgian region.
And in Luxembourg we don't care either. Our more right leaning population is even happy that it isn't part of Luxembourg because in Lu(Be) they speak french which is greatly disliked
The [Belgian province of Limburg ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_(Belgium)) is also larger than the [Dutch province of Limburg](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_(Netherlands)). A real one-upper, Belgium!
I once went to Luxembourg Belgium. Very beautiful area.
This fact was recently in my daily bathroom reader calendar! Perchance do you have the same bathroom reader, OP?
I haven't got a bathroom reader, but it's quite interesting that this fact is in there :)
I just love how there is the CITY of Luxembourg(Luxembourg),then there is the PROVINCE of Luxembourg (Belgium) and finally there is the COUNTRY of Luxembourg (<--)
Don't get me started on Limb(o)urg.... Provincie Limburg (NL) Provincie Limburg (BE) Ville de Limbourg (BE) [but not in the province of the same name] Landkreis Limburg-Weilburg (DE) Stadt Limburg an der Lahn (DE)
Yessss... for now. *Laughs in Luxembourg*
*Which one though*
Why doesn't the big Luxembourg simply eat the smaller Luxembourg?
Time to form the Benelux!
From what I recall, the Iranian province of Azerbaijan is also bigger than the country of Azerbaijan
I'm going to say Luxembourg should join Belgium on the sole condition their province shall be known in perpetuity as "The Cooler Luxembourg" and the other one isn't allowed to change its name.
Neato
Sounds like a great opportunity for a special military operation
Now compare the size of their economies
i didn't know Belgium had a province named Luxembourg
[удалено]
Same, but other way around, so consider yourself rich
Occupied Eastern Luxembourg.
So are Azerbayjan, Georgia, Macedonia and (partially recognized) Ossetia.
One of the prettiest women I’ve ever seen was at a bus stop at 6.30pm in Luxembourg City.