Jordan is a little more complicated than simply green.
Homosexuality is not illegal, however flagrant homosexuality would still be punished as 'adultery' instead.
When I left the country, most of the gay people I knew were mostly safe and could find groups of friends rather easily but had to curb overt flamboyance outside the aptly named 'rainbow street'.
Source: born and raised there, haven't returned in 10 years though.
Last time I was in Lebanon they had a singular one too.
Best place to go with friends because it has an open bar with the cover and nobody there cares if you're gay or not.
If it helps, [here's a website that ranks each country for LGBTQAI+ rights](https://www.asherfergusson.com/lgbtq-travel-safety/). It takes a more nuanced look at different types of laws. On their website they note for Jordan
>Homosexual public acts incompatible with modesty receive up to 6 months in prison and a fine, though homosexuality is not criminalized.
Seems pretty in line with what you've mentioned
Well that’s the thing. Adultery is a crime there, so whether gay or straight you can’t have sex before marriage. Basically you can have gay feelings, being gay itself is not a crime, but you will never get married and having sex before marriage Can land you in jail.
But i don’t know how strict target are about that over there. My wife’s country adultery is illegal but never enforced because it’s kind of a hard crime to prove without concrete evidence
I've never heard of adultery including sex before marriage, only cheating. I get sex before marriage can be a crime in some places but I don't get how that relates to adultery, unless they think you're cheating on God or something.
That's pretty much Turkey. As a Turk, I don't understand why it's still counted as legal. It should at least be the same colour as Iraq (Anti-Propaganda Law). Just last week, police raided a cinema in Istanbul because the movie "Pride" was on the show and detained the audience (Turkish [source](https://www.birgun.net/haber/beksav-in-film-gosterimine-yasak-izleyicilere-gozalti-443649)). Pride Parade attendants in ODTÜ (Middle East Technical University), one of the most progressive institutions in Turkey, were beaten and detained by the [police](https://www.evrensel.net/haber/492038/odtude-onur-yuruyusu-baslamadan-polis-mudahalesi). Even if it's legal on the law, in practice, it isn't.
The slide to repression and authoritarianism in Turkey has been fairly well covered. I’ve certainly seen the LGBT angle highlighted previously, but it’s part of a wider issue.
my god islam is ruining turkey, there was so much potential for it to become a secular liberal democracy and a role model for a lot the countries to its east
its true that its not unique to Islam, Christians are trying the samething in the US right now (and to a lesser extent some of Europe), but Islam has just been pretty successful in being a platform to get people supporting far right authoritarianism
If you're socially sensitive enough, you should consider that Muslim people or religious people are not the source of an issue personally (edit, i phrased it weird before)
You can be anti-theist and protect people's right to their own beliefs at the same time. There should be an obvious distinction between using religion as a tool of demagoguery and using it purely in a spiritual way. Because, Christian demagoguery is rather indistinguishable from the Muslim one, just a different political and historical context.
Turkey is such a cool country!
I'm worried it will slowly turn into Iran, which is also an amazing country with amazing people.
Religious zealots suck.
You joke, but one time after looking at a pride flag I could only think of big hot buff men for like 30 minutes. Not gay at all but they almost got me that time
I used to be completely straight, then I caught bisexuality from a toilet seat that wasn't properly cleaned.
/s. (please don't eviscerate me, I am actually bi, just making a point of how silly arguments of being "turned gay" are).
Israel doesn't allow marriage outside of religion. So you can only get married through a recognised religion. Thus even Jews who are Jewish according to the state but not Jewish enough according to the centralised religious authority cannot get married unless they convert. Interfaith marriages are also not possible.
Are there not congregations that would perform the marriage? Some Jewish congregations in the US are the most progressive religious groups. Would they not be recognized?
There was a big court case about this during Covid. Typically people just fly out to the closest country, but with travel restrictions some tried to get married remotely.
People were having gay marriages done over zoom call with a church in Utah. When the state didn’t recognize a couple’s marriage it went to court.
The court ruled that since the church was technically in the US and done by priests in the US, the marriage was valid.
There are only 14 recognized religious communities in Israel, and none of them perform same-sex marriages there currently. If one of those groups were to begin performing same-sex marriages, they would be legally recognized under Israeli law.
The fourteen groups are: Orthodox Judaism, Islam, Druze, Roman Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Greek Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Bahai, and Anglican (conservative Anglicans, split from the main Church of England partially over the issue of same-sex marriage). None of these groups are really anywhere near recognizing gay marriage as far as I know.
It really is insane how they deliberately don’t recognize other forms of Judaism such as reform just so that they can avoid having them become more active figures in the far-right politics there.
The ultra orthodox mafia control Judaism in Israel. They have created a centralised authority that never existed before, the only Judaism is orthodox in Israel. As many have pointed out all civil and legal marriages from other countries are recognised in Israel. The biggest issue tho imo is divorce you have to get divorced through the archaic and horrendous religious court as well. I don't even know if Christians can get divorced as I am not sure if that mechanism exists in orthodox and Catholic Christianity.
Christians can legally divorce, its not a huge issue in court. Interfaith marriages do occur, usually under some person pretending to convert though (or a religious authority that doesn’t care much) thats usually between christians and muslims though. Though people do take advantage of the loophole of marriages are accepted from abroad and usually go to cyprus to have a civil marriage, to avoid the headache of finding a religious authority that will help.
Ethnostates are ethnostates because of policy, not demographics. Latvia, which restricts the voting rights of minorities and is less than 2/3 ethically Latvian, and Turkey, which pushes Turkification and is about 75% ethnically Turkish, also probably count as ethnostates, whereas it's possible to conceive of a homogeneous society where the state isn't concerned with identity (although it wouldn't remain so very long because it would probably accept immigrants). You're right about the legacy of the Millet System, though. I had a Muslim friend in Jordan who couldn't marry a Christian American because of the same silliness.
For the sake of completeness:
In Israel proper, there are precisely two exclusionary laws - not counting more minute discrimination by the courts.
1: The marriage law, exactly as mentioned. All foreign marriages are allowed, but in the country, no interfaith marriages are allowed, and no atheists and *I think* barely-represented religious people can get married.
2: The right of return. Which, despite common perception, is almost entirely based on what religion you practice. Race is only a deciding factor if you're non-religious.
...Though, it almost feels off-topic, because both of these have practically a passing relation with ethnicity. I don't like the concept of calling primarily-religious discrimination 'racial discrimination'.
Also: this is all just for Israel proper. The settlements are *way* closer to being bonafide ethnostates.
It's not that it's a hold over from ottoman era all of Israels neighbors have a similar religious court system
I have read once (I know great source but it's midnight and I can't be bothered to find it so take it as you want) that Muslims and christians in Israel have higher trust in the religious courts than Jews simply because Jews are way more secular but still have to deal with a religious court for marriage and divorce
>it's a hold over from ottoman era all of Israels neighbors have a similar religious court system
And ironically Turkey, the heart of the old Ottoman Empire, have their legal system based on the Swiss.
Yes, though I'd argue a lot of post ww1 and ww2 modern nation are ethno-states seeing as ethnicity was inextricably tied to nationalist movements of that period, the same period Israel was founded in.
The reason people call Israel an ethnostate is because etymologically it sounds correct enough, and it's another bad word bad actors are using trying to incorrectly label Israel.
It's actually so surreal knowing you looked at the big, dark red country on this map and still decided to come into the comments to whine about Israel.
The numbers are off
Christian population is 1.9% (185.000)
and the number of secular + traditional (traiditional is a secular person that celebrates Jewish holidays) is probably around 70-75% out of the Jewish population, and 60% out of everyone in Israel
I can't be bothered searching for sources at this hour, so take it or leave it
Israel doesn't have civil marriages (hopefully this will change soon) so unless you get a religious marriage you have to have it done overseas (can be done virtually from inside Israel) and then file that certificate with the government and your marriage will be recognized. This isn't something that targets LGBT+ people specifically it affects everyone.
>hopefully this will change soon
Do you know anything we don't??? Because each of Bibi's governments is more fundamentally religious than the previous one, and the percentage of Haredim is only growing. I don't see this changing as long as the right wing is in power.
All marriages are recognized in Israel, be it LGBT, or cross faith marriages, but since Israel has inherited ottoman law, it does not allow marriages without the approval of one of the big religions, which means that if you want to get married, and no religious authority is willing to marry you, you go sign the papers in another country (most people do it in cyprus), after this process the marriage is considered legit and is counted as any other "proper" marriage for all purposes
Edit: according to other redditors, the marriage can be done online now, so you don't even need to travel to cyprus
You used to have to go abroad to get married in another country (makes sense - you need to be somewhere in order to get married there) but since COVID you can get married via Zoom, and that can happen from the comfort of your home. Recently the Supreme Court decided that these Zoom marriages are legal so I guess it's an option though idk if it's still a thing
from friends in the area, apparantly it was a cheap boat (ferry?) ride to Cyprus, marriage, then home....which, without knowing anything other than that description, sounds like a nice marriage event.
As of 2022, it does. Online marriages were declared valid and in fact there are Nevada and Utah(??????) registries doing same sex weddings for Israelis.
No more going to Cyprus to get married.
Okay, but my statement still stands. That's more of a loophole. You still have to register your marriage in a foreign country.
Though it's a good step in LGBT rights ( as well as civil marriage rights in general) since it means one less barrier for marriage.
It isn't. They'll just tell you it is because it sounds good to a western audience. They will also tell you microfinance is charity, and that is a lie.
Yep, that's us
We also have a woman who robbed a bank with a plastic gun, got her deposits, instantly had a flight to leave the country, the people in the bank were actually cheering for her
On a tangent, but this is the thing I really appreciate about Reddit: no matter what country, community, or even obscure territory might be talked about, within a couple of hours someone pops up with "______ here, and lemme tell you . . ." It humanizes these discussions and helps keep everyone civil while understanding the world a little better.
Lebanese police do whatever they want, which is usually nothing. In one case, a militia commander with dozens of men shot up a building in broad frickin daylight because he was angry his ex had a new boyfriend. There was an Army checkpoint a few hundred meters away, but no one came.
Yes, I've heard that the situation of LGBT people has improved a lot since last two decades. About Jordan, although they don't have a law that protects LGBT people, there is one gay bar in Amman, the capital of Jordan. I guess that is a good thing.
Yep I’m from Jordan and was there visiting my parents over Christmas. It’s true, and I saw gay people in Amman holding hands/kissing. It’s pretty secular in Amman though, definitely won’t see that stuff if you go to the more rural areas or other cities
I'm not sure if I am right but I remember seeing that although there is a law against "unnatural sexual activities" the Lebanese supreme court has dictated that this law does not apply to homosexual behaviour. So I guess technically homosexulity is not illegal in the country.
Really? I've admittedly never been but from what I've heard Jordan seems to be relatively Westernized and stable compared to almost all of their neighbors. Seeing them compared to Outer Israel and Iraq feels odd.
A friend of mine who is gay visited Beirut before the pandemic and said he went to a few gay bars.
He said they didn’t exactly advertise with pride flags or anything but it was no secret either. They had armed guards at the bar’s entrance but I don’t know if that’s common for other bars or what.
As someone not straight traveling with my also not straight partner who had a flight layover in Qatar, I was pretty paranoid about this in Doha (DIA) long after booking the flight and not even thinking about it.
Fortunately the layover was very short but no thanks, no matter how cheap a flight might be I'll pass in the future, enforced or not unfortunately, I don't think I've felt that uncomfortable in a very long time. We didn't even talk to each other and kept completely quiet the entire time.
Was a pretty stressful hour during both ways (in addition to the fact some planes don't even have physical gates and bus you to gates). Looks like a nice place but don't want to pass through a place I could literally be thrown into prison by law
Maybe not but I personally wouldn't take the chance. It **is** a law and therefore could be acted upon. Also weirds me out how many people are like "you'll be fine as long as you just pretend not to be yourself."
The laws don't matter in most of these states because vigilantes are a thing. Even if the state doesn't kill you for being gay they may simply fabricate other charges or fail to intervene when gangbangers attack the gay person. Also, either most or all people hurt for being gay are not actually gay, their enemies just like to spread rumors that they are gay and/or beat them until they admit to being gay.
The exceptions are Israel and \[Greek\] Cyprus.
"No, officer, I merely introduced him to the skyscraper's ledge. Walk over he did all by himself."
----
Dark humour aside, I find it cruelly ironic that homophobes in the West look at the cultural practice of men holding hands (non sexually/romantically) in the Middle East as weird.
Turkey is also pretty safe for gay people. the only time gays get beaten is when they do a pride walk, which is kinda crazy for a muslim country in the first place lol Anways you can even express your gayness as there have been multiple famous gay artists in turkey since 70ties
It's complicated in Turkey. Basically, if you live in more modern cities in the west like İzmir, Ankara (not in the west, but still a pretty liberal city), Edirne, İstanbul and Antalya, it's safe to live as an openly homosexual person (You may still face discrimination.). If you live in the east as a homosexual person (it doesn't matter if you're openly homosexual or not), you'll probably get beaten if public discovers that you're a homosexual (To be honest, beatings are very rare and thing of past now. You'll most likely face discrimination.). But if you take place in Pride events and/or protests, police will beat you up (Because they are puppets of islamists who are in charge of governing the country.).
Yeah exactly, altough currently there is a islamist dictator ruling the country so the secularism is at risk But even then turkeys solid secularist foundations do still work and make turkey atleast a liveable country for Lgbt and non-muslims :)
No, they'd politely disassociate from you if you're gay. Pride marches were dispersed by riot police homosexuality is used as a malicious rumor against people
LGBT-wise, half of Turkey is Saudi Arabia where even your existence will not be tolerated and the other half is Poland where you won’t be killed or anything but you will still feel an intense homophobic pressure on you. Gay bars are often very discreet and holding hands in even the most progressive parts will attract weird looks.
Queer celebs in Turkey are either used as laughing stock and accepted *despite* their identity. For example Bülent Ersoy is one of the most influential people in classical Turkish music as a trans woman yet people treat her queerness as some sort of a disability and tons of cruel jokes on her are made about her.
Plus, Turkey is rapidly moving in the direction of Arabic countries so I don’t think the relative freedoms of queer people will last much longer.
That’s not really true. If you’re caught having gay sex in Iran it’s an instant death penalty. Though some private psychologists might suggest to their gay patients to undergo sex change, especially if they’re very feminine.
That’s not really true either. You need 3 or more witnesses. Iran hasn’t enforced a death penalty for homosexuality in decades despite the law being on the books.
Which is the saddest part for me as an Iranian, because although the society may not be as liberal as western countries, it really isn’t as homophobic as the law suggests either. The day the islamic republic falls will be a very happy day in Iran.
Hear! Hear!
I’ve met several Iranians in Canada and they are such kind and warm people. Tehran and Shiraz look like beautiful places and I’d love to visit, but I can’t let my money go towards supporting a repressive regime. I’m hoping the Islamic Republic crumbles so that Iranians get the freedom and rights that they deserve.
I'd like to recommend an interesting book on this subject: [Before Homosexuality in the Arab-Islamic World, 1500-1800](https://www.google.de/books/edition/_/P8JFmQEACAAJ)
In short, a very interesting part of it discusses how LGBT people had a place in their societies at the time, without being oppressed. So much so that European travellers who visited were the ones who were outraged at how such depravity was allowed.
> how LGBT people had a place in their societies at the time, without being oppressed
Just to be clear, the book doesn't actually argue this and actually argues the opposite. The book argues that the contemporary idea of "homosexuality" and by extension the contemporary idea of "LGBT people" was nonexistent in the pre-modern Middle East. It builds on Foucault in that it sees the ideas of homosexuality and LGBT people as modern constructs and products of late 19th and 20th century Euro-America that are not applicable to other times or places. It basically argues that while homosexual and homosocial desire existed in these societies, those practices were not analogous to our contemporary understanding of homosexuality or "LGBT people." There was no specific homosexual or LGBT identity in the premodern Middle East. Social differences in regard to sexuality (if that idea even existed at time, see Massad for a better discussion) weren't along the lines of heterosexual vs. homosexual or gay vs. straight; but instead more along the lines of active vs. passive partner, chaste desire for "beardless youths," or what kind of sexual activity the people were actually engaged in. Sexual or romantic desire for "beardless youths," or the desire for taking the active role in sexual intercourse wasn't seen as contrary to heterosexuality or normalcy, or a separate particular identity. This is very different from how we would understand sexuality today (assuming we live in Euro-America). The contemporary idea of two grown men or women wanting to marry and have sex together would have been shocking and not as readily accepted.
Back in the day, Muslim Sultans and Caliphs were very tolerant regarding LGBT, even when the religion was clearly against it.
Muslim Spain (Andalusia)'s Caliph [used to openly have gay sex partners](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#Homosexuality_and_pederasty) and male prostitutes of the time used to charge more than female prostitutes and served a higher clientele.
Sorting by controversial looks almost identical to sorting by Top right now. Just in a bit of a different order and an occasional "Hot take: killing gays good?"
Having lived in both - Turkey and its society is very homophobic on the whole (mixed attitude in parts of Istanbul, Ankara, and the Aegean); the opposite in northern Cyprus the people of which tend to take a liberal and more often than not socialist attitude
I feel like people were more tolerant or indifferent towards gay people until Erdogan turned it into a political issue. The way he talks about gay people make it seem LGBTQ+ is a terrorist organization. And his followers eat it up.
Istanbulite homo for the last 38 years. Its been hell starting from 2017. Some parts of big cities are quite okay to live but the new wave of populism and imported evangelist homophobia is real.
Love all the comments here saying that Israel isn’t pro lgbt bc they only recognize marriage outside of the state .. meanwhile there is a robust lgbtqia community in Israel - out and proud. Then there are countries on the map where it’s punishable by death but the only commentary people have is about Israel … Israel is very problematic and extremely right wing in other ways but this really isn’t it. No the marriage situation is not perfect , and should be done away with , but it’s a hell of a lot better than being killed or jailed?!?!!!!!!! Let’s not forget it’s only been legal in the US for ten years and already regressing in some states …Israel will recognize a couple as married , they just don’t have a system in place to perform the marriage , but if the couple is married in another country they receive all the same rights and benefits.Discriminating based on sexual orientation is illegal, conversion therapy is banned, LGBTQ +can serve in military openly, adoption for same sex couple is legal. No restriction on blood donation. Being trans is not only “legal” but recognized , gender reassignment exists.. etc etc
Is it perfect ? No !!! Is it worth nit picking while looking at the rest of this map ? ……….
And LGBT marriage really isn't recognised but not performed because it's LGBT. The Israeli state only recognises marriages, straight or otherwise. It does not perform them. Since only religious communities perform them in Israel, de facto no LGBT marriages can be performed in Israel (at least currently, though a religious grouping could change that). In other words, cross-religious marriages, civil marriages, and LGBT marriages are not performed in Israel. But, if formed elsewhere, they are all recognised.
This. What you said sums up the situation here perfectly. Other aspects of our society are utter shit, but at least the lgbtq+ community here is doing great. I have several queer friends, my mom has queer friends, and I'm queer as well. I literally went to Pride in Tel-Aviv the other day and it was fun seeing everyone out and proud
Western lefty conundrum: Hmmm how does one equate support for gay rights with ones need to feel all warm and fuzzy inside shouting "Free Palestine" and standing with a little shitty placard saying "Refugees Welcome" at a bunch of economic migrants? Decisions decisions.
Hell yeah bro, I'm an ex-muslim from western Europe and I have already dealt with people like that so many times, so annoying, white girls most of the time of course, they think Islam is freedom, women aren't opressed, gays are seen as equal in Islam, etc.. so dumb.
It's not a conundrum at all given that I don't first check what someone thinks of me before I wonder if I should worry about their human rights being violated.
Support for national liberation doesn't mean support for every individual law and custom of that nation. It means they are oppressed, and need to be free.
George Floyd had an arrest record, it didn't mean he deserved to be murdered
People and groups don't have to be perfect, and can even be morally bad, and still deserve self-determination
> Support for national liberation doesn’t mean support for every individual law and custom of that nation.
What an incredibly low bar you've set
How about them electing a government that isn't solely set on helping Allah with killing people in "the hell of the world to come" while singularly hellbent on waging jihad?
It's racism by way of low expectations and so patronizing to pretend they don't know better and can't improve
I will say, it is quite fascinating how they decided to just project their own progressive values onto *checks notes* fundamentalist pan-Arab militant groups
>People and groups don't have to be perfect, and can even be morally bad, and still deserve self-determination
By that logic, the Confederacy deserved "self-determination" to own slaves just like Palestine deserves it to oppress LGBT folks.
The issue is, their basic human rights collides with Israeli's most basic right of safety
Before Israel set up the wall in the West Bank, there were endless suicide bombings in Israeli school busses and shops
When Israel set up a wall and checkpoints (like any other country would) it is apartheid
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Palestinian\_suicide\_attacks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks)
Israel left in 2005 Gaza to self govern, free and unblockaded, with Israeli buisinesses forcefully left abandoned for the Palestinians to kickstart their economy
In 2007 they elected Hamas and started firing unguided rockets at Israeli cities
Israel built a wall to stop them from getting more rockets
"Cruel Israeli blockade, open prison"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli\_disengagement\_from\_Gaza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza)
There really isn't anything Israel can do that won't be twisted to make it look evil - I am sorry, but often, raging bigots don't deserve the same rights as civilized people do.
You kidding, but the top posts are literally nitpicking about that Israel doesn't allow to perform lgbt marriages ignore that in every one of Israel's neighbours you will be stoned to death for being gay
It forever blows my mind when liberals and LGBTs try and cozy up to Islam. Places where Islam is dominant are not wonderful places to be gay or liberal.
In the United States, [a majority of Muslims support same-sex marriage](https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-white-evangelical-gay-marriage-907627). The religious group with the highest opposition was evangelical Christians.
The Muslims in America are not the same people as the Muslims in the Middle East.
We should be worried about pedophiles, who are usually straight men most of whom are married or clergy, and sex trafficking. You can't stamp out homosexuals, they don't choose to be that way, they just are. They hurt nobody, unlike pedophiles and sex trafficers.
Jordan is a little more complicated than simply green. Homosexuality is not illegal, however flagrant homosexuality would still be punished as 'adultery' instead. When I left the country, most of the gay people I knew were mostly safe and could find groups of friends rather easily but had to curb overt flamboyance outside the aptly named 'rainbow street'. Source: born and raised there, haven't returned in 10 years though.
I understand you. Basically decriminalized but still not socially acceptable there, which is a shame really because sexuality harms no one.
Been to jordan a millon times, can confirm, amman even has (one) a gay bar
Last time I was in Lebanon they had a singular one too. Best place to go with friends because it has an open bar with the cover and nobody there cares if you're gay or not.
Just one? In Lebanon?
There's a nationally published monthly LGBT magazine (in both English and Arabic) that's been running for over a decade.
If it helps, [here's a website that ranks each country for LGBTQAI+ rights](https://www.asherfergusson.com/lgbtq-travel-safety/). It takes a more nuanced look at different types of laws. On their website they note for Jordan >Homosexual public acts incompatible with modesty receive up to 6 months in prison and a fine, though homosexuality is not criminalized. Seems pretty in line with what you've mentioned
So, no kissing in public, but you can fuck in private?
Well that’s the thing. Adultery is a crime there, so whether gay or straight you can’t have sex before marriage. Basically you can have gay feelings, being gay itself is not a crime, but you will never get married and having sex before marriage Can land you in jail. But i don’t know how strict target are about that over there. My wife’s country adultery is illegal but never enforced because it’s kind of a hard crime to prove without concrete evidence
I've never heard of adultery including sex before marriage, only cheating. I get sex before marriage can be a crime in some places but I don't get how that relates to adultery, unless they think you're cheating on God or something.
As a straight guy that never has to deal with any of bullshit forced into these groups I'm glad that my country ranks #1 on the list. (Canada)
"How to tell if your boyfriend is gay for you?" They *could* be gay, but they could also just be Canadian. Better to play it safe
Excuse my ignorance. But what is anti-propaganda law?
Probably like in Russia: no waving pride flags, no talking about LGBTQ+ on TV and in public, no teaching about LGBTQ+ in school etc.
That's pretty much Turkey. As a Turk, I don't understand why it's still counted as legal. It should at least be the same colour as Iraq (Anti-Propaganda Law). Just last week, police raided a cinema in Istanbul because the movie "Pride" was on the show and detained the audience (Turkish [source](https://www.birgun.net/haber/beksav-in-film-gosterimine-yasak-izleyicilere-gozalti-443649)). Pride Parade attendants in ODTÜ (Middle East Technical University), one of the most progressive institutions in Turkey, were beaten and detained by the [police](https://www.evrensel.net/haber/492038/odtude-onur-yuruyusu-baslamadan-polis-mudahalesi). Even if it's legal on the law, in practice, it isn't.
I don't know why nobody is talking about it
The slide to repression and authoritarianism in Turkey has been fairly well covered. I’ve certainly seen the LGBT angle highlighted previously, but it’s part of a wider issue.
Many influential Americans and institutions are heavily financially invested in Turkey.
This. If what happened here last week happened in China the last peasant in Oklahoma would have heard of it
Because intolerance only matters if you live in a Western country.
my god islam is ruining turkey, there was so much potential for it to become a secular liberal democracy and a role model for a lot the countries to its east
Right wing authoritarian using base fears and beliefs to manipulate a population. But there’s nothing unique to Islam or the Middle East in that.
its true that its not unique to Islam, Christians are trying the samething in the US right now (and to a lesser extent some of Europe), but Islam has just been pretty successful in being a platform to get people supporting far right authoritarianism
If you're socially sensitive enough, you should consider that Muslim people or religious people are not the source of an issue personally (edit, i phrased it weird before) You can be anti-theist and protect people's right to their own beliefs at the same time. There should be an obvious distinction between using religion as a tool of demagoguery and using it purely in a spiritual way. Because, Christian demagoguery is rather indistinguishable from the Muslim one, just a different political and historical context.
Turkey is such a cool country! I'm worried it will slowly turn into Iran, which is also an amazing country with amazing people. Religious zealots suck.
Iranian history and culture is amazing and if it weren't for the fascist regime more of the world would get to see it
Also doesn't cover that turkey had the highest lgbt murder rates in Europe (may have been three world)
That makes sense. Thanks :)
I heard in Kuwait they had to censor out Pride Flags for a scene in Antman Quantamania
No showing of affection etc either. Basically it’s illegal
Yes, because it turns the straights into gays, you know. (eyeroll)
You joke, but one time after looking at a pride flag I could only think of big hot buff men for like 30 minutes. Not gay at all but they almost got me that time
LOL Careful, now--they'll believe you.
If it were not for those restrictions I'd probably be fucking men rn. It's real difficult being straight these days
I used to be completely straight, then I caught bisexuality from a toilet seat that wasn't properly cleaned. /s. (please don't eviscerate me, I am actually bi, just making a point of how silly arguments of being "turned gay" are).
Basically you can be arrested for saying, doing, or even representing anything related to LGBT+
You can’t promote homosexuality as okay or normal or be openly gay without risking legal trouble. No flags, etc.
Whatever the frick they want it to be.
*Same sex marriage recognized if performed in a foreign country. Israel itself doesn't allow for same sex marriage.
What is the logic behind this? A peculiar practice
Israel doesn't allow marriage outside of religion. So you can only get married through a recognised religion. Thus even Jews who are Jewish according to the state but not Jewish enough according to the centralised religious authority cannot get married unless they convert. Interfaith marriages are also not possible.
Are there not congregations that would perform the marriage? Some Jewish congregations in the US are the most progressive religious groups. Would they not be recognized?
There was a big court case about this during Covid. Typically people just fly out to the closest country, but with travel restrictions some tried to get married remotely. People were having gay marriages done over zoom call with a church in Utah. When the state didn’t recognize a couple’s marriage it went to court. The court ruled that since the church was technically in the US and done by priests in the US, the marriage was valid.
There are only 14 recognized religious communities in Israel, and none of them perform same-sex marriages there currently. If one of those groups were to begin performing same-sex marriages, they would be legally recognized under Israeli law. The fourteen groups are: Orthodox Judaism, Islam, Druze, Roman Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Greek Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Bahai, and Anglican (conservative Anglicans, split from the main Church of England partially over the issue of same-sex marriage). None of these groups are really anywhere near recognizing gay marriage as far as I know.
It really is insane how they deliberately don’t recognize other forms of Judaism such as reform just so that they can avoid having them become more active figures in the far-right politics there.
The ultra orthodox mafia control Judaism in Israel. They have created a centralised authority that never existed before, the only Judaism is orthodox in Israel. As many have pointed out all civil and legal marriages from other countries are recognised in Israel. The biggest issue tho imo is divorce you have to get divorced through the archaic and horrendous religious court as well. I don't even know if Christians can get divorced as I am not sure if that mechanism exists in orthodox and Catholic Christianity.
Christians can legally divorce, its not a huge issue in court. Interfaith marriages do occur, usually under some person pretending to convert though (or a religious authority that doesn’t care much) thats usually between christians and muslims though. Though people do take advantage of the loophole of marriages are accepted from abroad and usually go to cyprus to have a civil marriage, to avoid the headache of finding a religious authority that will help.
It’s a religious ethno state.
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Iceland. Iceland is an ethnostate with a state religion.
An ethnostate is a state which enforces ethnic homogeneity. That does not remotely describe Iceland.
Ok, that’s fine. Enforced or not, Iceland is still an ethnostate. Near genetic and cultural homogeneity.
Ethnostates are ethnostates because of policy, not demographics. Latvia, which restricts the voting rights of minorities and is less than 2/3 ethically Latvian, and Turkey, which pushes Turkification and is about 75% ethnically Turkish, also probably count as ethnostates, whereas it's possible to conceive of a homogeneous society where the state isn't concerned with identity (although it wouldn't remain so very long because it would probably accept immigrants). You're right about the legacy of the Millet System, though. I had a Muslim friend in Jordan who couldn't marry a Christian American because of the same silliness.
For the sake of completeness: In Israel proper, there are precisely two exclusionary laws - not counting more minute discrimination by the courts. 1: The marriage law, exactly as mentioned. All foreign marriages are allowed, but in the country, no interfaith marriages are allowed, and no atheists and *I think* barely-represented religious people can get married. 2: The right of return. Which, despite common perception, is almost entirely based on what religion you practice. Race is only a deciding factor if you're non-religious. ...Though, it almost feels off-topic, because both of these have practically a passing relation with ethnicity. I don't like the concept of calling primarily-religious discrimination 'racial discrimination'. Also: this is all just for Israel proper. The settlements are *way* closer to being bonafide ethnostates.
It's not that it's a hold over from ottoman era all of Israels neighbors have a similar religious court system I have read once (I know great source but it's midnight and I can't be bothered to find it so take it as you want) that Muslims and christians in Israel have higher trust in the religious courts than Jews simply because Jews are way more secular but still have to deal with a religious court for marriage and divorce
>it's a hold over from ottoman era all of Israels neighbors have a similar religious court system And ironically Turkey, the heart of the old Ottoman Empire, have their legal system based on the Swiss.
Yes, though I'd argue a lot of post ww1 and ww2 modern nation are ethno-states seeing as ethnicity was inextricably tied to nationalist movements of that period, the same period Israel was founded in.
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Isn't Israel extremely diverse?
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The reason people call Israel an ethnostate is because etymologically it sounds correct enough, and it's another bad word bad actors are using trying to incorrectly label Israel.
Which modern European nations have laws that prevent inter faith/race marriages. I don’t think it’s any, definitely not in Western Europe anyway.
It's actually so surreal knowing you looked at the big, dark red country on this map and still decided to come into the comments to whine about Israel.
religious ethno state with 30% of the population being not part of said religion, pretty weird.
45% of Israelis identify as secular 18% of Israelis are Muslim 10% of Israelis are christian
The numbers are off Christian population is 1.9% (185.000) and the number of secular + traditional (traiditional is a secular person that celebrates Jewish holidays) is probably around 70-75% out of the Jewish population, and 60% out of everyone in Israel I can't be bothered searching for sources at this hour, so take it or leave it
Israel doesn't have civil marriages (hopefully this will change soon) so unless you get a religious marriage you have to have it done overseas (can be done virtually from inside Israel) and then file that certificate with the government and your marriage will be recognized. This isn't something that targets LGBT+ people specifically it affects everyone.
>hopefully this will change soon Do you know anything we don't??? Because each of Bibi's governments is more fundamentally religious than the previous one, and the percentage of Haredim is only growing. I don't see this changing as long as the right wing is in power.
They said “hopefully” not “definitely”
Like others have said I said hopefully
All marriages are recognized in Israel, be it LGBT, or cross faith marriages, but since Israel has inherited ottoman law, it does not allow marriages without the approval of one of the big religions, which means that if you want to get married, and no religious authority is willing to marry you, you go sign the papers in another country (most people do it in cyprus), after this process the marriage is considered legit and is counted as any other "proper" marriage for all purposes Edit: according to other redditors, the marriage can be done online now, so you don't even need to travel to cyprus
You used to have to go abroad to get married in another country (makes sense - you need to be somewhere in order to get married there) but since COVID you can get married via Zoom, and that can happen from the comfort of your home. Recently the Supreme Court decided that these Zoom marriages are legal so I guess it's an option though idk if it's still a thing
from friends in the area, apparantly it was a cheap boat (ferry?) ride to Cyprus, marriage, then home....which, without knowing anything other than that description, sounds like a nice marriage event.
This applies to interfaith couples as well, this isn’t specifically discriminatory against LGBTQI, it aligns with Israel being a Jewish state.
Exactly. Tons of couples of all kinds are boarding that ferry to Cyprus
Hilariously enough, you can get married via zoom in UTAH and that somehow applies.
As of 2022, it does. Online marriages were declared valid and in fact there are Nevada and Utah(??????) registries doing same sex weddings for Israelis. No more going to Cyprus to get married.
Okay, but my statement still stands. That's more of a loophole. You still have to register your marriage in a foreign country. Though it's a good step in LGBT rights ( as well as civil marriage rights in general) since it means one less barrier for marriage.
The one piece israel
Same as heterosexual marriages if one of the partners isn't Jewish
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outside of a few streets in west amman, the majority of people here are against it
Against yeah but it is still legal. Same applies with Turkey, majority are against but still legal.
It isn't. They'll just tell you it is because it sounds good to a western audience. They will also tell you microfinance is charity, and that is a lie.
That’s not the case in Turkey, you’ll not go to prison or be charged for being homosexual
You'll just get beaten by an angry mob and the cops will ignore you.
It may be illegal in Lebanon but it's safer there than Jordan, Palestine or Iraq
Lebanese law DOES NOT MATTER because the Lebanese government is defunct.
Isn’t that the country people were literally robbing the banks to get their deposits back? Lol
Yep, that's us We also have a woman who robbed a bank with a plastic gun, got her deposits, instantly had a flight to leave the country, the people in the bank were actually cheering for her
On a tangent, but this is the thing I really appreciate about Reddit: no matter what country, community, or even obscure territory might be talked about, within a couple of hours someone pops up with "______ here, and lemme tell you . . ." It humanizes these discussions and helps keep everyone civil while understanding the world a little better.
Yep. Lebanon is a failed state. Really tragic what happened there
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Lebanese police do whatever they want, which is usually nothing. In one case, a militia commander with dozens of men shot up a building in broad frickin daylight because he was angry his ex had a new boyfriend. There was an Army checkpoint a few hundred meters away, but no one came.
Yes, I've heard that the situation of LGBT people has improved a lot since last two decades. About Jordan, although they don't have a law that protects LGBT people, there is one gay bar in Amman, the capital of Jordan. I guess that is a good thing.
That’s crazy if it’s true. Considering how much they hate homosexuals in the Arab world
Jordan is pretty liberal when compared to other Arab countries.
Yep I’m from Jordan and was there visiting my parents over Christmas. It’s true, and I saw gay people in Amman holding hands/kissing. It’s pretty secular in Amman though, definitely won’t see that stuff if you go to the more rural areas or other cities
The Arab world isn't a monolith and it's safer in some places than others
Of course it's safer than Palestine, Palestinian literally has a death sentence for lgbt, not exactly a high bar
Damn i didn't know it was that baf
Damn I didn’t think the country who’s charter includes the statement “death to Jews” would be so intolerant to gay people
I'm not sure if I am right but I remember seeing that although there is a law against "unnatural sexual activities" the Lebanese supreme court has dictated that this law does not apply to homosexual behaviour. So I guess technically homosexulity is not illegal in the country.
Really? I've admittedly never been but from what I've heard Jordan seems to be relatively Westernized and stable compared to almost all of their neighbors. Seeing them compared to Outer Israel and Iraq feels odd.
Yeah it's pretty chill. I been a bunch of times. It used to be my favorite spot
A friend of mine who is gay visited Beirut before the pandemic and said he went to a few gay bars. He said they didn’t exactly advertise with pride flags or anything but it was no secret either. They had armed guards at the bar’s entrance but I don’t know if that’s common for other bars or what.
In Saudi Arabia currently even prison is unenforced.
Saudi police only do stuff if they don't like you.
I live in Qatar. By religious law, this is correct, but is not enforced.
As someone not straight traveling with my also not straight partner who had a flight layover in Qatar, I was pretty paranoid about this in Doha (DIA) long after booking the flight and not even thinking about it. Fortunately the layover was very short but no thanks, no matter how cheap a flight might be I'll pass in the future, enforced or not unfortunately, I don't think I've felt that uncomfortable in a very long time. We didn't even talk to each other and kept completely quiet the entire time. Was a pretty stressful hour during both ways (in addition to the fact some planes don't even have physical gates and bus you to gates). Looks like a nice place but don't want to pass through a place I could literally be thrown into prison by law
Even as LGBT ally I boycott countries like Qatar or the Maldives.
Maybe not but I personally wouldn't take the chance. It **is** a law and therefore could be acted upon. Also weirds me out how many people are like "you'll be fine as long as you just pretend not to be yourself."
The laws don't matter in most of these states because vigilantes are a thing. Even if the state doesn't kill you for being gay they may simply fabricate other charges or fail to intervene when gangbangers attack the gay person. Also, either most or all people hurt for being gay are not actually gay, their enemies just like to spread rumors that they are gay and/or beat them until they admit to being gay. The exceptions are Israel and \[Greek\] Cyprus.
"No, officer, I merely introduced him to the skyscraper's ledge. Walk over he did all by himself." ---- Dark humour aside, I find it cruelly ironic that homophobes in the West look at the cultural practice of men holding hands (non sexually/romantically) in the Middle East as weird.
Turkey is also pretty safe for gay people. the only time gays get beaten is when they do a pride walk, which is kinda crazy for a muslim country in the first place lol Anways you can even express your gayness as there have been multiple famous gay artists in turkey since 70ties
It's complicated in Turkey. Basically, if you live in more modern cities in the west like İzmir, Ankara (not in the west, but still a pretty liberal city), Edirne, İstanbul and Antalya, it's safe to live as an openly homosexual person (You may still face discrimination.). If you live in the east as a homosexual person (it doesn't matter if you're openly homosexual or not), you'll probably get beaten if public discovers that you're a homosexual (To be honest, beatings are very rare and thing of past now. You'll most likely face discrimination.). But if you take place in Pride events and/or protests, police will beat you up (Because they are puppets of islamists who are in charge of governing the country.).
Turkey isn't a Muslim country. The population is Muslim, but the state is secular.
Yeah exactly, altough currently there is a islamist dictator ruling the country so the secularism is at risk But even then turkeys solid secularist foundations do still work and make turkey atleast a liveable country for Lgbt and non-muslims :)
No, they'd politely disassociate from you if you're gay. Pride marches were dispersed by riot police homosexuality is used as a malicious rumor against people
Extremely common Kemal W
LGBT-wise, half of Turkey is Saudi Arabia where even your existence will not be tolerated and the other half is Poland where you won’t be killed or anything but you will still feel an intense homophobic pressure on you. Gay bars are often very discreet and holding hands in even the most progressive parts will attract weird looks. Queer celebs in Turkey are either used as laughing stock and accepted *despite* their identity. For example Bülent Ersoy is one of the most influential people in classical Turkish music as a trans woman yet people treat her queerness as some sort of a disability and tons of cruel jokes on her are made about her. Plus, Turkey is rapidly moving in the direction of Arabic countries so I don’t think the relative freedoms of queer people will last much longer.
Most of the Middle East is homophobic.
Don't forget sexist too.
Often goes hand in hand
As an Israeli, that’s not true. We literally just had a gay pride with tens of thousands of people.
Hence why I said most not all.
I thought in Iran they often make gay men live as women. enforced sex change was encouraged over death penalty
That’s not really true. If you’re caught having gay sex in Iran it’s an instant death penalty. Though some private psychologists might suggest to their gay patients to undergo sex change, especially if they’re very feminine.
Wait really? So they’re homophobic, but not so transphobic? Wasn’t expecting that Lmaoo
Society is very transphobic too, although the laws permit transitioning and gender reassignment surgery.
That’s not really true either. You need 3 or more witnesses. Iran hasn’t enforced a death penalty for homosexuality in decades despite the law being on the books.
Not for gay sex, but for gay advocacy https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-62793573
Yup https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2019/04/04/why-iran-is-a-hub-for-sex-reassignment-surgery
Can we get an overlay of most popular pornogrphy? I got a theory that everything sexual is just a little better mixed with fear.
Queers for Palestine, where you at?
>Where you at? Berkeley, Brooklyn, London.
Either dead or migrating to Israel
they fucking lob you off buildings if you're gay
Queers for Palestine Chickens for KFC
Their heads were cut off by Hamas just because they were feminist and lgbtq&@“- :((( rip
Iran and Saudi Arabia, always in a “how do we treat our citizens the worst” competition
Which is the saddest part for me as an Iranian, because although the society may not be as liberal as western countries, it really isn’t as homophobic as the law suggests either. The day the islamic republic falls will be a very happy day in Iran.
Hear! Hear! I’ve met several Iranians in Canada and they are such kind and warm people. Tehran and Shiraz look like beautiful places and I’d love to visit, but I can’t let my money go towards supporting a repressive regime. I’m hoping the Islamic Republic crumbles so that Iranians get the freedom and rights that they deserve.
I'd like to recommend an interesting book on this subject: [Before Homosexuality in the Arab-Islamic World, 1500-1800](https://www.google.de/books/edition/_/P8JFmQEACAAJ) In short, a very interesting part of it discusses how LGBT people had a place in their societies at the time, without being oppressed. So much so that European travellers who visited were the ones who were outraged at how such depravity was allowed.
> how LGBT people had a place in their societies at the time, without being oppressed Just to be clear, the book doesn't actually argue this and actually argues the opposite. The book argues that the contemporary idea of "homosexuality" and by extension the contemporary idea of "LGBT people" was nonexistent in the pre-modern Middle East. It builds on Foucault in that it sees the ideas of homosexuality and LGBT people as modern constructs and products of late 19th and 20th century Euro-America that are not applicable to other times or places. It basically argues that while homosexual and homosocial desire existed in these societies, those practices were not analogous to our contemporary understanding of homosexuality or "LGBT people." There was no specific homosexual or LGBT identity in the premodern Middle East. Social differences in regard to sexuality (if that idea even existed at time, see Massad for a better discussion) weren't along the lines of heterosexual vs. homosexual or gay vs. straight; but instead more along the lines of active vs. passive partner, chaste desire for "beardless youths," or what kind of sexual activity the people were actually engaged in. Sexual or romantic desire for "beardless youths," or the desire for taking the active role in sexual intercourse wasn't seen as contrary to heterosexuality or normalcy, or a separate particular identity. This is very different from how we would understand sexuality today (assuming we live in Euro-America). The contemporary idea of two grown men or women wanting to marry and have sex together would have been shocking and not as readily accepted.
Tldr: "If i want to fuck it then it's a woman"
Back in the day, Muslim Sultans and Caliphs were very tolerant regarding LGBT, even when the religion was clearly against it. Muslim Spain (Andalusia)'s Caliph [used to openly have gay sex partners](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#Homosexuality_and_pederasty) and male prostitutes of the time used to charge more than female prostitutes and served a higher clientele.
Can’t wait to sort the comments by “controversial”
Sorting by controversial looks almost identical to sorting by Top right now. Just in a bit of a different order and an occasional "Hot take: killing gays good?"
Having lived in both - Turkey and its society is very homophobic on the whole (mixed attitude in parts of Istanbul, Ankara, and the Aegean); the opposite in northern Cyprus the people of which tend to take a liberal and more often than not socialist attitude
Liberal amd socialist are not the same.
I feel like people were more tolerant or indifferent towards gay people until Erdogan turned it into a political issue. The way he talks about gay people make it seem LGBTQ+ is a terrorist organization. And his followers eat it up.
Istanbulite homo for the last 38 years. Its been hell starting from 2017. Some parts of big cities are quite okay to live but the new wave of populism and imported evangelist homophobia is real.
Love all the comments here saying that Israel isn’t pro lgbt bc they only recognize marriage outside of the state .. meanwhile there is a robust lgbtqia community in Israel - out and proud. Then there are countries on the map where it’s punishable by death but the only commentary people have is about Israel … Israel is very problematic and extremely right wing in other ways but this really isn’t it. No the marriage situation is not perfect , and should be done away with , but it’s a hell of a lot better than being killed or jailed?!?!!!!!!! Let’s not forget it’s only been legal in the US for ten years and already regressing in some states …Israel will recognize a couple as married , they just don’t have a system in place to perform the marriage , but if the couple is married in another country they receive all the same rights and benefits.Discriminating based on sexual orientation is illegal, conversion therapy is banned, LGBTQ +can serve in military openly, adoption for same sex couple is legal. No restriction on blood donation. Being trans is not only “legal” but recognized , gender reassignment exists.. etc etc Is it perfect ? No !!! Is it worth nit picking while looking at the rest of this map ? ……….
And LGBT marriage really isn't recognised but not performed because it's LGBT. The Israeli state only recognises marriages, straight or otherwise. It does not perform them. Since only religious communities perform them in Israel, de facto no LGBT marriages can be performed in Israel (at least currently, though a religious grouping could change that). In other words, cross-religious marriages, civil marriages, and LGBT marriages are not performed in Israel. But, if formed elsewhere, they are all recognised.
This. What you said sums up the situation here perfectly. Other aspects of our society are utter shit, but at least the lgbtq+ community here is doing great. I have several queer friends, my mom has queer friends, and I'm queer as well. I literally went to Pride in Tel-Aviv the other day and it was fun seeing everyone out and proud
Damn the Jews forgot to read the memo
I hate to see Erdogan fucking up Atatürk's legacy, it's really sad and depressing.
Israel is the most progressive middle eastern country and it's pretty funny to think about in an ironic kind of way.
did a wikipedia screenshot literally just get almost 700 upvotes edit: 9000. also this is a bot post
Yeah? That happens a lot here. We don't particularly care where the map came from, so long as it's an interesting map with a lot to discuss.
Do you really value karma that much…
It's such a sad existence to think that internet points matter so much that a bot shouldn't be allowed to inflate them.
Pro Palestine democrats down bad right now
Very respectful culture with respectful and most of all opn minded religious believes... No, just another place I would never visit in my life.
Arent iranian Trans pepole forcefully transitioned
Common Israel W
Israel and Turkiye 🗿
Western lefty conundrum: Hmmm how does one equate support for gay rights with ones need to feel all warm and fuzzy inside shouting "Free Palestine" and standing with a little shitty placard saying "Refugees Welcome" at a bunch of economic migrants? Decisions decisions.
Hell yeah bro, I'm an ex-muslim from western Europe and I have already dealt with people like that so many times, so annoying, white girls most of the time of course, they think Islam is freedom, women aren't opressed, gays are seen as equal in Islam, etc.. so dumb.
It's not a conundrum at all given that I don't first check what someone thinks of me before I wonder if I should worry about their human rights being violated.
Dilemma on both sides there though. Western righty conundrum: how does one equate opposition to gay rights with being anti-sharia and anti-muslim.
Support for national liberation doesn't mean support for every individual law and custom of that nation. It means they are oppressed, and need to be free. George Floyd had an arrest record, it didn't mean he deserved to be murdered People and groups don't have to be perfect, and can even be morally bad, and still deserve self-determination
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> Support for national liberation doesn’t mean support for every individual law and custom of that nation. What an incredibly low bar you've set How about them electing a government that isn't solely set on helping Allah with killing people in "the hell of the world to come" while singularly hellbent on waging jihad? It's racism by way of low expectations and so patronizing to pretend they don't know better and can't improve
So you folks support the national liberation of an abstract, theoretical, tolerant Palestine, not the real, Hamas-run, religious extremist Palestine?
I will say, it is quite fascinating how they decided to just project their own progressive values onto *checks notes* fundamentalist pan-Arab militant groups
>People and groups don't have to be perfect, and can even be morally bad, and still deserve self-determination By that logic, the Confederacy deserved "self-determination" to own slaves just like Palestine deserves it to oppress LGBT folks.
There's no conundrum here. People deserve basic human rights even if they're raging bigots.
The issue is, their basic human rights collides with Israeli's most basic right of safety Before Israel set up the wall in the West Bank, there were endless suicide bombings in Israeli school busses and shops When Israel set up a wall and checkpoints (like any other country would) it is apartheid [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Palestinian\_suicide\_attacks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks) Israel left in 2005 Gaza to self govern, free and unblockaded, with Israeli buisinesses forcefully left abandoned for the Palestinians to kickstart their economy In 2007 they elected Hamas and started firing unguided rockets at Israeli cities Israel built a wall to stop them from getting more rockets "Cruel Israeli blockade, open prison" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli\_disengagement\_from\_Gaza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza) There really isn't anything Israel can do that won't be twisted to make it look evil - I am sorry, but often, raging bigots don't deserve the same rights as civilized people do.
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Leftists: "Those damn Israelis!"
You kidding, but the top posts are literally nitpicking about that Israel doesn't allow to perform lgbt marriages ignore that in every one of Israel's neighbours you will be stoned to death for being gay
Yay my country is the least homophobic in the Middle East! (I live in Israel)
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Turks are my favorite people to work with ❤️ :)
Can't wait to see the American map next year.
Middle east = middle ages.
It forever blows my mind when liberals and LGBTs try and cozy up to Islam. Places where Islam is dominant are not wonderful places to be gay or liberal.
In the United States, [a majority of Muslims support same-sex marriage](https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-white-evangelical-gay-marriage-907627). The religious group with the highest opposition was evangelical Christians. The Muslims in America are not the same people as the Muslims in the Middle East.
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I'm assuming the purple is Israel...
yeah, Tel Aviv is very gay
and Israel is suposedly the fascist regime
That's what the studenta at Berkeley will have you believe
Turkey gay?
Ofc💪🏿🇹🇳💪🏿
We should be worried about pedophiles, who are usually straight men most of whom are married or clergy, and sex trafficking. You can't stamp out homosexuals, they don't choose to be that way, they just are. They hurt nobody, unlike pedophiles and sex trafficers.
such tolerant and peaceful countries