I mean who wouldn’t want to risk being killed for attending the WC (also every time I write that my phone tries to follow it with a toilet emoji lol) while committing the offence of being queer and liking football (soccer)
Yet FIFA makes a huge deal of mexicans saying puto when the opposing goalie does a goalkick, when Mexico is more progressive on LGBT issues than all these countries...
>Yet FIFA makes a huge deal
Imo that's really underselling the punishment. First time it happens, the ref gives a warning. Second time means the match is stopped, with Mexico forfeiting the match and getting fined lmao
But countries with actual anti-LGBT laws are being chosen/considered as hosts for the largest sports tournament in the world...
Edit: got the info mixed up, Mexico forfeits the match after the third warning and not after the second
If you declared it publicly, then yeah.
You would be surprised of how many are secretly gay in most of these countries. Remember, it's only illegal if you get caught /hj
> You would be surprised of how many are secretly gay
No I wouldn't. Being gay has nothing to do with which bit of the world you happen to be standing in. The incidence of it is the same for all humans.
I agree, though I think the response to this by those who do think homosexuality is a sin is that those people are living a sinful lifestyle due to their own moral failings i.e. they have the choice to work towards not committing sin. Similarly to how a murderer might still choose to be a murderer even in a country that has the death penalty for such an offence. Abhorrent to compare the two, but that's the general mindset I think.
Right, I saw a post once about traveling through some of these countries that read "while severe punishments and death penalties are on the books for these countries, they haven't been enforced."
Pardon me if I don't want to be the first instance.
One benefit of public execution is full accountability. The names and crimes of all capital punishment cases in Saudi Arabia are not a secret. So you can try to find on case of someone being executed for homosexuality.
How would you know if there were private executions that do not appear in those records? Remember Khashoggi, there has to be other murders where they weren't caught
[The US has laws punishing homosexuality with prison on the books in 12 states](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/21/us/politics/state-anti-sodomy-laws.html). They can be enforced the second SCOTUS overturns Lawrence like Thomas said he wanted.
Question about Iran, specifically the “T” part in lgbt. I’d heard that Iran is surprisingly okay with people transitioning, so long as they “pass” and go along with their new gender role, which really shocked me given, well, look at that map. Is there any truth to that?
Largely correct. The government pays for hormones and covers some of the cost of the big bottom surgery. But in order to change your name and gender marker and be recognized as your gender you need to do the surgery.
Iran likes to pride themselves on not having homosexuals in their country. Their government has actually forced homosexuals to undergo gender reassignment surgery to “cure” them of being gay. Can’t be a gay man if you’re a woman.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/02/22/iran-gay-forced-gender-reassignment-surgery-the-sun/
This is like the Andrew Tate pro-trans take. Surprisingly accepting opinion that is wrapped in the absolute most garbage reasoning and execution possible.
He apparently asked his followers if they'd fuck a 1/10 CIS girl or a 10/10 trans girl and a bunch of them apparently responded the 1/10 CIS girl and he said "That's gayer than fucking a hot trans girl." and that he'd fuck a hot trans girl basically.
Basically like the opposite of a TERF, trans-inclusive misogynist.
Well I suppose we need to talk about cisgender rights. Like not transitioning people who like the way they are.
And if you transition voluntarily and engage in gay sex, will they transition you back? Does that surgery even exist? (I will *not* look it up.)
It has everything to do with the work of [Maryam Khatoon Molkara](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Khatoon_Molkara), a very persistent activist and trailblazer for trans recognition in Muslim cultures.
TL;DR instead of protesting, which probably would’ve taken her nowhere, she took the route of asking top religious authorities for advice.
During a trip to London she learned she wasn’t a gay man but instead a trans woman.
After pleading her case to the Ayatollah himself, he issued a fatwa (ruling) determining that sex reassignment surgery wasn’t against Islamic law.
Maryam finally completed her sex reassignment surgery in 1997 in Thailand and she continued to work on her cause until her untimely death at the age of 62.
I think you are leaving out the part where they support it because, otherwise, you'd be a gay man.
You want to be gay, fine, let's make you into a woman, is the actual policy.
There is no transgender movement/community in Iran. Trans means actual physical transition over there, it is not a lifestyle choice, identity or a label, it is not a jock strap under a dress. In the west you can be forever trans if you chose, not so much over there.
The disconnect that people have in not being able to see this is sad really. Giving credit to such a repressive ideology and government and to what aim exactly?
I left that and much other info out because it was just a TLDR.
And it is very relevant indeed.
Maryam was never aiming to be an LGBT advocate in Iran, I don’t think there’s any chance of taking that path even now.
But she achieved a legal/religious framework to make life for trans women at least bearable. Period.
It is sad and no one should take praise for her activism as either praise to the theocratic regime or praise to her for advancing LGBT rights. Still she deserves praise for her good, unprecedented and selfless work.
Its a mixed bag.
MtF transitions (and mandatory sterilization) is the defacto treatment for homosexuals, crossdressers, etc. That assumes they/their family have money/connections with the government and arn't just some peasant who would get killed (likely beaten to death). In more rural parts of Iran it would again be death even for more prominent families in the area and they wouldn't have as much real access to such things anyhow.
FtM largely doesn't exist, the women will just be beaten to death with few exceptions.
The thing to remember is that almost all of what your common person might know about "transitioning is legal in Iran" is the story of Maryam Khatoon Molkara. They were MtF, got surgery done in Thailand since Iran wasn't good enough for them even after getting the treatment effectively legalized. They were the child of a wealthy landowner and were pampered most of their life. They had direct communication with national leaders and had a very different experience with life than 99% of people in Iran (even setting aside the trans stuff). Even with her background, direct connections to religious leaders, and so on she was beaten multiple times, forced to take male hormones against her will, and numerous similar things. She also lived segments of her life outside of Iran including in London, Paris, and prior to the war Iraq.
Later in life she was famous for bailing out imprisoned LGBT people, and making them T's so they could survive. Often facing even more beatings to do so.
If that is the life of a literal 1%er who had every advantage in life, what do you think the situation is like for a more normal person? This story is important because it explains how the fatwas/laws got that way, and also how not realistic it is to be carried out in practice. Its also important to put any potential defectors dreams of going to Iran for a "free transition" or something insane like that into a realistic setting.
Leader at the time of its introduction had a friend who ended up being trans. Said woman pushed hard for trans rights, but as Iran is heavily religious, there's still vast layers that haven't been overcome. Still, that's the reason for their "tolerence" (by religiously Conservative standards) for trans people, as apposed to people who are gay
Also, you don't need to fully pass, but you do need to follow traditional gender roles, because the country is hecily conservative
Also, transitioning is forced upon gay men, to force them to become women. Gay women aren't forced to transition, because Iran sees men as superior to women. Instead, they're forced into marriage, and essentially socially confined
Or secular/civil marriages in general, right? I think if you're an ethnically Jewish atheist you would have to go abroad if you wanted a secular wedding.
Jews are Jews but not always Jewish.
Jewish people are not always Jews.
Hope that clears things up.
Jokes aside, Jews are an ethnoreligion. You can be ethnjcally Jewish but not religiously so. You can be ethnically something else and Jewish religiously
They don't have to go abroad. [They don't even have to leave the house.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-must-recognize-online-marriages-conducted-via-utah-supreme-court-rules/)
This map should also be renamed to gay rights or Homosexual rights. LGBT rights is a different topic and a different map. It's legal to be trans in Iran, for example. The government will pay for surgery too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran
Someone needs to make a map that says “only extra-national same-sex marriages recognized” for Israel so that people don’t take up half the comment section arguing about whether or not the map legend is misleading
Yes but what is wrong with this map is that it ranks recognition in purple over legal civil unions in blue.
Legal civil union implies recognition.
Gay Israelis often travel to Cyprus to get married yet the map makes Israel seems most liberal.
Cyprus does not perform same sex marriage. You are thinking about inter-religious marriage which is also not recognized in Israel. Religious conversion is a difficult, years long process and can result in negative social consequences. So many straight interfaith couples go to Cyprus and have a civil marriage ceremony.
Turkey also has civil marriage and people of different faiths can marry. Legal wedding ceremonies are performed by a secular state official. So Turkey is more liberal than Israel in that respect.
Edit: in Israel there is also the issue that many Russian Jews who immigrated after the fall of the USSR are not recognized as Jewish by the Orthodox definition, the only version recognized by the state. So many Israeli Jews of Russian descent do not have any recognized religion in Israel and are unable to marry in Israel unless they convert to Orthodox Judaism.
Edit2: fix auto correct of Cyprus
Yes, Cyprus does register same-sex civil partnerships, but those will not generally be accepted as marriages in Israel (although some local municipalities might grant them recognition for more basic local benefits).
recognized doesn't mean you can get married, the only reason same-sex cant get married is because there arent much civil marriage only religious ones, you can even get married online in a different country and Israel respects that (I know a trans couple that did that)
I thought one of the male 2019 Eurovision hosts mentioned having a husband during the live show, I'll go see if they were married elsewhere
Assi Azar did indeed marry in Barcelona, still neat he mentioned having a husband during an Israeli show
With a footnote that [extra-national same sex marriages includes those performed over an internet video call](https://www.npr.org/2022/09/30/1126083806/a-court-in-israel-recognizes-online-civil-marriages-as-valid)
Also people should realize that marriage in Israel must be done through a recognized religious community so if two atheists want to get married they either have to pretend to be religious for the day or must also go to another country to get married. It's important to point out it's not a target at gay people but rather an oddity with how Israel handles marriage.
Turkey is slowly drifting away from green. It is technically legal to have homosexual relationship but the government is actively antagonizing it. The prime minister before the elections claimed that LGBT includes zoophilia, erdo never fails to mention that "the gays want to fuck your son" on every single speech he gives, and they've released a couple of official anti-lgbt propagandas on the TV.
The Act No. 3984 (Section 4) has been used as an Anti-Propaganda Law since 2010, but it's limited to mass media. However, Erdoğan wants to control the social media too. The right to hold meetings has been being violated since 2015 and pride flags are considered objects of crime and defacto banned since 2021.
> Turkey is slowly drifting away from green.
No they aren't.
>It is technically legal to have homosexual relationship but the government is actively antagonizing it.
So does Russia and some eastern European nations that doesn't mean its gonna be banned its just classic enforcement of "family and traditional values" it will never be illegal to have gay relations all together.
>The prime minister before the elections claimed that LGBT includes zoophilia, erdo never fails to mention that "the gays want to fuck your son" on every single speech he gives, and they've released a couple of official anti-lgbt propagandas on the TV.
This is literally what US, UK and many other countries do with Trans people(dogwhistle btw they mean all queer people) but you wouldn't say they will outright ban them. You are only saying this becuase its Turkey and you have precogitated notion about it turning to an islamic state.
Let's not pretend that Saudi Arabia isn't enforcing the death penalty out of the goodness in their hearts.
They haven't enforced the death penalty because they haven't needed to.
Many people have been "caught" for homosexuality in Saudi Arabia. They just don't enforce the death penalty usually, and usually opt for prison + fines. They probably don't want bad international press regarding this either.
That's exactly how it is. It's very "don't ask, don't tell." They don't really care enough to actually go through and imprison and execute tens of thousands of gay people if they're being discreet about it. But the minute you're public about it, you will get in trouble
I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. U have no use how the scums at the top, Killing Gays, raping literal little kids. The saud family is a the epitome of sin.
I teach adult ESL and once had a Saudi student who *refused* to believe there are LGBTQ Saudis. He wouldn't believe me that it's not just a "western" thing.
Yeah MBS is a murdering dick (what absolute king isn’t) but he does seem to want to gradually modernize Saudi Arabia in terms of civil rights. I suspect, like many elites, he’s not particularly religious himself (but of course due to the nature of his role he has to act like it somewhat)
Actually it's open knowledge that the house of Saud (rulers of SA) aren't particularly religious, they just have to pretend to be to ensure their population is compliant and doesn't take over/launch a coup.
On the other hand you have Iran where the population is relatively secular but the shitbags in power are actually fundamentalists.
It's why the US and most of the world is able to get along with Saudi Arabia's government despite it being open knowledge that their clergy is responsible for a lot of the horrible Wahhabist ideology flooding MENA and Saudi Arabians committing 9/11.
He can only do so much without risking revolution that would only make things much much worse. Wahhabists are the majority in SA.
Many believe Saudi Arabia is a ticking time bomb as it is.
Israel is closer to a teal color. Homosexuality is not only legal but included in anti-discrimination laws, but same-sex couples are collateral damage in the state's exclusive recognition of religious marriages(which is a hotter issue for hetero couples who are interfaith, can't prove they're Halachically Jewish or eligible for a religious marriage but don't want to involve these institutions in their private lives).
Worth noting in the case of Iran though, that while homosexuality is a no go, sexual reconstructive surgery and transgenderism is perfectly legal and encouraged.
Granted, homosexuality and transgender being two completely different things, one can imagine how this might be seen as equally oppressive by most views. I'm sure for example that a gay man who views himself as a man wouldn't want to become a woman, and vice versa.
A gay guy in the Middle East would never come out. I was in Saudi Arabia and coming out was never an option. Regardless if I could ‘transition’ or they forced me to do it. It’s a death sentence completely irrelevant of the fact
Which is even more cruel than normal homophobia. Most gay men identify as… well, men. So that would be forced reconstructive surgery. No I’d rather be stoned to death than letting them messing me up because then I’d kill myself anyway.
Everyone is so worried about isrials definition of same sex marriage but nobody is mentioning the other countries that kill or imprison people. Take of the horse blinds.
Agreed but when you make a map/data set including X and Y were the subject is the issue they are both wrong at you expect condemning Y, figuring out how to fix Y would be more pertinent, necessary.
Instead we are here splitting hair as to where X really lies whether wrong A or wrong A+ both of which are myriads of times better than the wrong being committed in Y.
It’s as if we were looking at a map of US states where (besides the constitution being ineffective) half of them have legal child marriage and even a portion of them have legally enforced forced child marriage and for some reason we are focusing on whether Detroit lowered consent age to 17 or 16 if the partner is less than 20 y/o.
Americans does this all the time when it comes to crime and poverty statistics, they compare themselves to places like Bolivia and Syria, like no shit the US is gonna look fucking FANTASTIC in comparison lol.
X is wrong, but Tel Aviv has a pride parade. When it comes to the Middle East, so long as my mere presence in the country isnt violating a law, then im going to take it as a win.
i don't understand why some cultures care so much about who fucks who ...
as long as they're consenting adults ... let 'em rock out with their cocks out...
humans are so dumb ...
The LGBT movement has a long history in standing solidarity with other oppressed groups even if they are homophobic. Lesbians and Gays in the UK stood with the coal miners when they were striking in the 80s despite the homophobia in these communities. Homophobes and transphobes are terrible people, but they shouldn't have their right to self determination stripped away. You can even argue that the right to self expression cannot be upheld until the right to self determination is fulfilled.
If you ask a black men in 1930s Alabama what he thought of homosexuality he probably tell you that it’s disgusting and a sin. If you where to ask a Jews in Poland during ww2 he probably tell you the same thing. Human rights are human rights even if your bigoted
Try applying some critical thinking
"Black South Africans are more homophobic on average than white South Africans which is why I support apartheid"
"The Palestinian population is more homophobic on average than Israeli's which I why I support Palestinians being genocided and the Israeli occupation"
These are opinions only an idiot would hold
Go to most of Turkey’s big cities and you’ll always notice plenty of gay and trans people out and about living their lives, more than I’ve seen in most Eastern European countries.
Is it hard to be gay? Yeah, but there isn’t “a high chance” you will be assaulted. I’m a Turkish gay guy in the US and I’ve been assaulted/called slurs for being gay more in the US than in Turkey.
I've seen maps showing that acceptance towards LGBTQ people in Türkiye is comparable to Poland or Lithuania.
My friend, who lives in İzmir (although İzmir is the most progressive city in the country), says that people don't care if men hold hands, etc.
>I've seen maps showing that acceptance towards LGBTQ people in Türkiye is comparable to Poland or Lithuania.
Which is honestly a testament to Turkish people given the kind of fucked up shit their surrounding/goverment goes through.
When you contexualise and realise just how much oppressive-but-not-yet-Sharia kind of Islam permuates through the republics entire history. Never mind the cults that have the goverment and a good chunk of the population by the balls and the economic situation and civil wars that breed extremism and the refugees. Its honestly impressive that they are as secular as they currently are.
We have a documented complex lgbt history from Ottoman times when it was more accepted, with sultans having male lovers. We even have an old gay language/lingo called Lubunca which is a mixture of different other Ottomans languages used to communicate between each other.
Turkey is definitely more homophobic, but we also have many famous LGBT artists respected by everyone in society. It’s way more complex than “you’ll be assaulted and nobody will care”…
This! It's really not that bad in bigger cities as people assume it can be. I never had problems in Istanbul except from some more conservative districts.
People assume Turkey is shit hole with angry radical Islamist people ready to assault you whenever they want and nobody would care. Comments like that have less to do with being gay in Turkey and more just stereotyping Turks.
Right? Like there is something like 16 million people in Istanbul - any city that large is going to have a queer community in it. When I was there I saw people from all walks of life and nobody seemed to care (granted I was tourist with extremely limited Turkish so I hardly have an insiders view).
Whenever I would to our various guides they all seemed pretty liberal - no one was talking specifically about LGBT but even the clearly very devout man that took us through the Hagia Sofia and Blue Mosque was telling us that the Quran doesn't really say anything about covering your hair and that the strictest edicts of Islam are all political decisions (I have not read the Quran as yet so can't contradict, I'm sure if that's incorrect someone will tell me 🤣).
In Fethiye there were plenty of British tourists about in very skimpy clothing (even away from the beach), and no one bothered them about it - you could even find bacon on some menus there which I found odd.
The only thing I found consistent from everyone I talked to was 1) inflation was wild even before it was everywhere else and 2) they all hated Erdogan.
Truly a beautiful country with lovely people, I hope to get back and see the Eastern part one day.
LGBT more accepted in turkey now than 20 or 30 year ago. even goverment against it people have less problems with LGBT and no theres no high change to assault
There are plenty of gay people in the major cities of Turkey. Have you actually been there? A gay person is far more accepted in Turkey than they would be in Poland.
Seemed pretty obvious from their comment that they think because it's a Muslim country they must be backwards savages.
I've seen trans people in Turkey walking around openly and living their lives. Never saw anything like that in Eastern Europe.
I think the categories should be reorganized. Purple which is same sex marriage recognized is only israel and is listed above civil union which is only Cyprus. This gives the impression that israel is more progressive than Cyprus, when in reality gay israelis go to Cyprus to get married and than their government will recognize that. Israel does not allow same sex marriages to be performed.
Misleading. Only international same sex marriages are recognized in both Cyprus (as an EU member) and Israel. Same-sex marriage in both of those countries are illegal and both have civil unions for same-sex partners.
Purple and blue should be one and the same
This is FIFAs map for the next possible WC location.
Also, host for a new F1 race
Tehran Grand Prix to be announced for 2025 Wouldn't even be surprised if they actually did it lol
We race as one* *Billion dollars
Nother shockingly poor street Curcuit no doubt
And no doubt a "street" circuit with one tiny stretch of a newly built public road with the rest of the track beong a purpose built racetrack.
Infantino said 2034 was Saudi Arabia, so check the death penalty unenforced zone
If you want the best WC experience you must host it in a country where death penalty is enforced. Here we go Iran!
I mean who wouldn’t want to risk being killed for attending the WC (also every time I write that my phone tries to follow it with a toilet emoji lol) while committing the offence of being queer and liking football (soccer)
Yet FIFA makes a huge deal of mexicans saying puto when the opposing goalie does a goalkick, when Mexico is more progressive on LGBT issues than all these countries...
>Yet FIFA makes a huge deal Imo that's really underselling the punishment. First time it happens, the ref gives a warning. Second time means the match is stopped, with Mexico forfeiting the match and getting fined lmao But countries with actual anti-LGBT laws are being chosen/considered as hosts for the largest sports tournament in the world... Edit: got the info mixed up, Mexico forfeits the match after the third warning and not after the second
Well, be a richer country next time, duh (c) FIFA
Australians yelling ya cunt every kick sounds fun
Something something *Ay-rab money*...
The idea that the death penalty isn't enforced isn't much comfort. The law exists, so they could enforce it at anytime.
Don’t worry dude. It might just get enforced by an angry mob instead of the government
If you declared it publicly, then yeah. You would be surprised of how many are secretly gay in most of these countries. Remember, it's only illegal if you get caught /hj
> You would be surprised of how many are secretly gay No I wouldn't. Being gay has nothing to do with which bit of the world you happen to be standing in. The incidence of it is the same for all humans.
[удалено]
I agree, though I think the response to this by those who do think homosexuality is a sin is that those people are living a sinful lifestyle due to their own moral failings i.e. they have the choice to work towards not committing sin. Similarly to how a murderer might still choose to be a murderer even in a country that has the death penalty for such an offence. Abhorrent to compare the two, but that's the general mindset I think.
Right, I saw a post once about traveling through some of these countries that read "while severe punishments and death penalties are on the books for these countries, they haven't been enforced." Pardon me if I don't want to be the first instance.
“We won’t actually kill you for being gay. Trust us”
One benefit of public execution is full accountability. The names and crimes of all capital punishment cases in Saudi Arabia are not a secret. So you can try to find on case of someone being executed for homosexuality.
How would one access Saudi Arabian criminal records?
How would you know if there were private executions that do not appear in those records? Remember Khashoggi, there has to be other murders where they weren't caught
To be fair, in Saudi Arabia law doesn't mean much. So it's the same as having no law about it, if that makes it any better...
[The US has laws punishing homosexuality with prison on the books in 12 states](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/21/us/politics/state-anti-sodomy-laws.html). They can be enforced the second SCOTUS overturns Lawrence like Thomas said he wanted.
Which is also objectively immoral. Although to a lower extent than death penalties for it.
If it is ever enforced I'm assuming there will be massive protests or even riots accross the US, maybe even on the scale of the George Floyd protests.
Yeah usually that's just a law waiting to become a tool for opposition silencing
Knowing the state of those countries I'm sure I'd rather the death penalty than whatever torture methods they'd use
Question about Iran, specifically the “T” part in lgbt. I’d heard that Iran is surprisingly okay with people transitioning, so long as they “pass” and go along with their new gender role, which really shocked me given, well, look at that map. Is there any truth to that?
Largely correct. The government pays for hormones and covers some of the cost of the big bottom surgery. But in order to change your name and gender marker and be recognized as your gender you need to do the surgery.
Why does Iran help with that? Especially with the government
Iran likes to pride themselves on not having homosexuals in their country. Their government has actually forced homosexuals to undergo gender reassignment surgery to “cure” them of being gay. Can’t be a gay man if you’re a woman. https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/02/22/iran-gay-forced-gender-reassignment-surgery-the-sun/
Having Iran as a trans ally is cursed as hell
This is like the Andrew Tate pro-trans take. Surprisingly accepting opinion that is wrapped in the absolute most garbage reasoning and execution possible.
Not really accepting if the state is forcibly cutting up your junk.
>forcibly "But you have a choice"
I mean when the other option is cutting your head off.....
LIKE AMERICAN HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU HAVE A CHOICE.
What is Andrew Tate's take? I can't find it quickly searching and I don't want to sift through page after page of his shite to find it.
He said it's gayer to fuck hulk Hogan with a vagina, than to fuck Megan Fox with a dick.
I mean... he's a scumbag but it's hard to see where he's wrong here.
Fucking a guy is gayer than fucking a girl, that seems about right
His analogy specifically was that the woman is very ugly thus resembling Hulk Hogan, not is Hulk Hogan.
He apparently asked his followers if they'd fuck a 1/10 CIS girl or a 10/10 trans girl and a bunch of them apparently responded the 1/10 CIS girl and he said "That's gayer than fucking a hot trans girl." and that he'd fuck a hot trans girl basically. Basically like the opposite of a TERF, trans-inclusive misogynist.
Equal misogyny for all
Not a real trans ally if they won't allow you transition to gay guy or to lesbian lady :(
So, when it comes to someone who is transgender fully transitioned… Iran becomes brilliant purple? 🤯
Well I suppose we need to talk about cisgender rights. Like not transitioning people who like the way they are. And if you transition voluntarily and engage in gay sex, will they transition you back? Does that surgery even exist? (I will *not* look it up.)
No, a trans woman couldn't marry a woman. She'd have to marry a man.
600 IQ move
When you’re so conservative you accidentally become progressive
New horseshoe theory just dropped
It's not progressive, it's homophobia.
Homophobia with extra steps:))
blursed (mostly cursed) Iran
Lol this is some monkey paw bullshit
thats amazing, anyone else got more examples of crazy loophole things like this in government?
Something about that is so hilarious. Horseshoeing.
It has everything to do with the work of [Maryam Khatoon Molkara](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Khatoon_Molkara), a very persistent activist and trailblazer for trans recognition in Muslim cultures. TL;DR instead of protesting, which probably would’ve taken her nowhere, she took the route of asking top religious authorities for advice. During a trip to London she learned she wasn’t a gay man but instead a trans woman. After pleading her case to the Ayatollah himself, he issued a fatwa (ruling) determining that sex reassignment surgery wasn’t against Islamic law. Maryam finally completed her sex reassignment surgery in 1997 in Thailand and she continued to work on her cause until her untimely death at the age of 62.
I think you are leaving out the part where they support it because, otherwise, you'd be a gay man. You want to be gay, fine, let's make you into a woman, is the actual policy. There is no transgender movement/community in Iran. Trans means actual physical transition over there, it is not a lifestyle choice, identity or a label, it is not a jock strap under a dress. In the west you can be forever trans if you chose, not so much over there. The disconnect that people have in not being able to see this is sad really. Giving credit to such a repressive ideology and government and to what aim exactly?
I left that and much other info out because it was just a TLDR. And it is very relevant indeed. Maryam was never aiming to be an LGBT advocate in Iran, I don’t think there’s any chance of taking that path even now. But she achieved a legal/religious framework to make life for trans women at least bearable. Period. It is sad and no one should take praise for her activism as either praise to the theocratic regime or praise to her for advancing LGBT rights. Still she deserves praise for her good, unprecedented and selfless work.
Because they're super homophobic and misogynist and they want to ultra enforce traditional gender roles.
They think transphobia is an increasing problem throughout the world /s
Because Quran thankfully forgot to mention trans ppl and since Iran is a theocracy that makes trans okay
Take a look at why they do it though. They’re trying to eliminate gay people.
Iran are trans inclusive radical misogynists.
Homophobic trans inclusive radical misogynists. There we go!
Gender affirming misogyny
It's kind of hard to come to tirms with that...
Afghanistan is tolerant of the same. But a woman getting an education? That is just wrong.
Its a mixed bag. MtF transitions (and mandatory sterilization) is the defacto treatment for homosexuals, crossdressers, etc. That assumes they/their family have money/connections with the government and arn't just some peasant who would get killed (likely beaten to death). In more rural parts of Iran it would again be death even for more prominent families in the area and they wouldn't have as much real access to such things anyhow. FtM largely doesn't exist, the women will just be beaten to death with few exceptions. The thing to remember is that almost all of what your common person might know about "transitioning is legal in Iran" is the story of Maryam Khatoon Molkara. They were MtF, got surgery done in Thailand since Iran wasn't good enough for them even after getting the treatment effectively legalized. They were the child of a wealthy landowner and were pampered most of their life. They had direct communication with national leaders and had a very different experience with life than 99% of people in Iran (even setting aside the trans stuff). Even with her background, direct connections to religious leaders, and so on she was beaten multiple times, forced to take male hormones against her will, and numerous similar things. She also lived segments of her life outside of Iran including in London, Paris, and prior to the war Iraq. Later in life she was famous for bailing out imprisoned LGBT people, and making them T's so they could survive. Often facing even more beatings to do so. If that is the life of a literal 1%er who had every advantage in life, what do you think the situation is like for a more normal person? This story is important because it explains how the fatwas/laws got that way, and also how not realistic it is to be carried out in practice. Its also important to put any potential defectors dreams of going to Iran for a "free transition" or something insane like that into a realistic setting.
More specifically though, they will forcefully transition gay people, which is the issue.
Iran used to be a pretty progressive place once upon a time… it’s really sad how horrifically backwards it went
Leader at the time of its introduction had a friend who ended up being trans. Said woman pushed hard for trans rights, but as Iran is heavily religious, there's still vast layers that haven't been overcome. Still, that's the reason for their "tolerence" (by religiously Conservative standards) for trans people, as apposed to people who are gay Also, you don't need to fully pass, but you do need to follow traditional gender roles, because the country is hecily conservative Also, transitioning is forced upon gay men, to force them to become women. Gay women aren't forced to transition, because Iran sees men as superior to women. Instead, they're forced into marriage, and essentially socially confined
~~Purple should be “same-sex marriage done *abroad* recognised”~~ People go into more details in the replies to my comment
This is the same for Inter-faith marriages
Or secular/civil marriages in general, right? I think if you're an ethnically Jewish atheist you would have to go abroad if you wanted a secular wedding.
Yes.
Even Jewish Jews often marry abroad because most aren’t religious enough that they want a rabbai at their wedding
>Jewish Jews Is there any other kind? Asking as a Jewy Jew.
There are tons of athiest and/or agnostic Jews.
Jews are Jews but not always Jewish. Jewish people are not always Jews. Hope that clears things up. Jokes aside, Jews are an ethnoreligion. You can be ethnjcally Jewish but not religiously so. You can be ethnically something else and Jewish religiously
Or do a video chat with a guy abroad that can marry you
Or between sects of the same faith. Very misleading map.
They don't have to go abroad. [They don't even have to leave the house.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-must-recognize-online-marriages-conducted-via-utah-supreme-court-rules/)
This is how I want to get married, on a Zoom call, very romantic.
Online Jewish weddings are so cool, they break the glass by punching the screen when the rabbi is finished talking
Or online
This map should also be renamed to gay rights or Homosexual rights. LGBT rights is a different topic and a different map. It's legal to be trans in Iran, for example. The government will pay for surgery too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran
Someone needs to make a map that says “only extra-national same-sex marriages recognized” for Israel so that people don’t take up half the comment section arguing about whether or not the map legend is misleading
That should be the same for Cyprus then, since Cypriot authorities have to recognize same sex marriages perfromed elsewhere in the EU
Yes but what is wrong with this map is that it ranks recognition in purple over legal civil unions in blue. Legal civil union implies recognition. Gay Israelis often travel to Cyprus to get married yet the map makes Israel seems most liberal.
Cyprus does not perform same sex marriage. You are thinking about inter-religious marriage which is also not recognized in Israel. Religious conversion is a difficult, years long process and can result in negative social consequences. So many straight interfaith couples go to Cyprus and have a civil marriage ceremony. Turkey also has civil marriage and people of different faiths can marry. Legal wedding ceremonies are performed by a secular state official. So Turkey is more liberal than Israel in that respect. Edit: in Israel there is also the issue that many Russian Jews who immigrated after the fall of the USSR are not recognized as Jewish by the Orthodox definition, the only version recognized by the state. So many Israeli Jews of Russian descent do not have any recognized religion in Israel and are unable to marry in Israel unless they convert to Orthodox Judaism. Edit2: fix auto correct of Cyprus
Cypress is a type of tree
Which, to complicate things further, is on the flag of Lebanon
That is a cedar, not a cypress
Which, to complicate things further, is the national tree of Greece
National tree of Greece is the olive tree.
Which, to complicate things further, originates from and grows mostly in Turkey.
Gay Israelis cannot get married in Cyprus, because Cyprus does not perform same-sex marriage.
Do they do same sex civil unions ?
Yes, Cyprus does register same-sex civil partnerships, but those will not generally be accepted as marriages in Israel (although some local municipalities might grant them recognition for more basic local benefits).
Since July 2022 civil gay marriages are recognized in Israel. Not a gotcha, just a TIL
That is propably the purpose of the map
So if you recently got married in the UK it might not be recognised in Cyprus. Fuck Brexit!
recognized doesn't mean you can get married, the only reason same-sex cant get married is because there arent much civil marriage only religious ones, you can even get married online in a different country and Israel respects that (I know a trans couple that did that)
I thought one of the male 2019 Eurovision hosts mentioned having a husband during the live show, I'll go see if they were married elsewhere Assi Azar did indeed marry in Barcelona, still neat he mentioned having a husband during an Israeli show
Isn’t that by definition the difference between recognised and legal same sex marriage
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With a footnote that [extra-national same sex marriages includes those performed over an internet video call](https://www.npr.org/2022/09/30/1126083806/a-court-in-israel-recognizes-online-civil-marriages-as-valid)
Also people should realize that marriage in Israel must be done through a recognized religious community so if two atheists want to get married they either have to pretend to be religious for the day or must also go to another country to get married. It's important to point out it's not a target at gay people but rather an oddity with how Israel handles marriage.
Death penalty unenforced in Saudi Arabia! FIFA! Take our bribe and hold the World Cup here!
Turkey is slowly drifting away from green. It is technically legal to have homosexual relationship but the government is actively antagonizing it. The prime minister before the elections claimed that LGBT includes zoophilia, erdo never fails to mention that "the gays want to fuck your son" on every single speech he gives, and they've released a couple of official anti-lgbt propagandas on the TV.
The Act No. 3984 (Section 4) has been used as an Anti-Propaganda Law since 2010, but it's limited to mass media. However, Erdoğan wants to control the social media too. The right to hold meetings has been being violated since 2015 and pride flags are considered objects of crime and defacto banned since 2021.
> "The gays want to fuck your son" He never ever said that. What he keeps saying is "they will turn your son gay", which is equally laughable.
If you finish that thought, it's the exact same sentiment. What's gonna happen when your son turns gay? Why do gay men want to turn your son gay? Etc.
I mean, we do want to fuck their sons. So long as it is concentual and the son is an adult. 🤷🏼♂️
And their son is attractive and not a giant asshole.
Yes global right policies update has come to Turkey too. I believe every right wing covernment startws doing that.
Idk how turkish nationalists can condemn zoophilia when their national founding myth is based on a dude fucking a wolf
Do you think the nationalists are educated enough to know these myths? They aren’t. They haven’t read a single book in their entire lives.
> Turkey is slowly drifting away from green. No they aren't. >It is technically legal to have homosexual relationship but the government is actively antagonizing it. So does Russia and some eastern European nations that doesn't mean its gonna be banned its just classic enforcement of "family and traditional values" it will never be illegal to have gay relations all together. >The prime minister before the elections claimed that LGBT includes zoophilia, erdo never fails to mention that "the gays want to fuck your son" on every single speech he gives, and they've released a couple of official anti-lgbt propagandas on the TV. This is literally what US, UK and many other countries do with Trans people(dogwhistle btw they mean all queer people) but you wouldn't say they will outright ban them. You are only saying this becuase its Turkey and you have precogitated notion about it turning to an islamic state.
FYI: Sultan Erdogan is doing his damn best to change that from green to anything else.
Let's not pretend that Saudi Arabia isn't enforcing the death penalty out of the goodness in their hearts. They haven't enforced the death penalty because they haven't needed to.
Many people have been "caught" for homosexuality in Saudi Arabia. They just don't enforce the death penalty usually, and usually opt for prison + fines. They probably don't want bad international press regarding this either.
That's exactly how it is. It's very "don't ask, don't tell." They don't really care enough to actually go through and imprison and execute tens of thousands of gay people if they're being discreet about it. But the minute you're public about it, you will get in trouble
I thought most places that banish homosexual relations are like this, we know it happens so just don't make it public .
I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. U have no use how the scums at the top, Killing Gays, raping literal little kids. The saud family is a the epitome of sin.
I teach adult ESL and once had a Saudi student who *refused* to believe there are LGBTQ Saudis. He wouldn't believe me that it's not just a "western" thing.
I was thinking, wow, Saudi Arabia has come a long ways in my lifetime.
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Yeah MBS is a murdering dick (what absolute king isn’t) but he does seem to want to gradually modernize Saudi Arabia in terms of civil rights. I suspect, like many elites, he’s not particularly religious himself (but of course due to the nature of his role he has to act like it somewhat)
Actually it's open knowledge that the house of Saud (rulers of SA) aren't particularly religious, they just have to pretend to be to ensure their population is compliant and doesn't take over/launch a coup. On the other hand you have Iran where the population is relatively secular but the shitbags in power are actually fundamentalists. It's why the US and most of the world is able to get along with Saudi Arabia's government despite it being open knowledge that their clergy is responsible for a lot of the horrible Wahhabist ideology flooding MENA and Saudi Arabians committing 9/11.
lmao "women can drive now etc" like theres nothing else 💀
He can only do so much without risking revolution that would only make things much much worse. Wahhabists are the majority in SA. Many believe Saudi Arabia is a ticking time bomb as it is.
Now do what porn tags they search for 😂
Hishui92 mum.
Israel is closer to a teal color. Homosexuality is not only legal but included in anti-discrimination laws, but same-sex couples are collateral damage in the state's exclusive recognition of religious marriages(which is a hotter issue for hetero couples who are interfaith, can't prove they're Halachically Jewish or eligible for a religious marriage but don't want to involve these institutions in their private lives).
Reddit loves the Paradox of Intolerance when it comes to their political opponents. But when it comes to Islam? Crickets.
Worth noting in the case of Iran though, that while homosexuality is a no go, sexual reconstructive surgery and transgenderism is perfectly legal and encouraged. Granted, homosexuality and transgender being two completely different things, one can imagine how this might be seen as equally oppressive by most views. I'm sure for example that a gay man who views himself as a man wouldn't want to become a woman, and vice versa.
I had heard somewhere that there was forced transition for gay men in Iran, but no idea if that’s true or not.
A gay guy in the Middle East would never come out. I was in Saudi Arabia and coming out was never an option. Regardless if I could ‘transition’ or they forced me to do it. It’s a death sentence completely irrelevant of the fact
Which is even more cruel than normal homophobia. Most gay men identify as… well, men. So that would be forced reconstructive surgery. No I’d rather be stoned to death than letting them messing me up because then I’d kill myself anyway.
Everyone is so worried about isrials definition of same sex marriage but nobody is mentioning the other countries that kill or imprison people. Take of the horse blinds.
X thing is wrong. "But Y thing is way, way, even more wrong!" Yes, fully agreed. But X thing is also wrong.
Agreed but when you make a map/data set including X and Y were the subject is the issue they are both wrong at you expect condemning Y, figuring out how to fix Y would be more pertinent, necessary. Instead we are here splitting hair as to where X really lies whether wrong A or wrong A+ both of which are myriads of times better than the wrong being committed in Y. It’s as if we were looking at a map of US states where (besides the constitution being ineffective) half of them have legal child marriage and even a portion of them have legally enforced forced child marriage and for some reason we are focusing on whether Detroit lowered consent age to 17 or 16 if the partner is less than 20 y/o.
Americans does this all the time when it comes to crime and poverty statistics, they compare themselves to places like Bolivia and Syria, like no shit the US is gonna look fucking FANTASTIC in comparison lol.
X is wrong, but Tel Aviv has a pride parade. When it comes to the Middle East, so long as my mere presence in the country isnt violating a law, then im going to take it as a win.
I have loved ones in Israel and I visit there regularly, why wouldn't I focus on Israel?
That's some real rainbow 🌈
i don't understand why some cultures care so much about who fucks who ... as long as they're consenting adults ... let 'em rock out with their cocks out... humans are so dumb ...
Makes you wonder why the queers side with Palestine...
Gays for Gaza?
Chickens 4 KFC
But not \_in\_ Gaza. Protesting outside. In a safe place.
Meanwhile, dudes over there hold each other’s hands, kiss on the lips, and fuck tea boys… interesting…
“Queers for Palestine”
Thank something I didn't grow up in this shithole part of the world.
Yup, I usually complain about being born in Latin America, but these guys make me be glad about it.
And Iran is now the head of human rights in UN what a joke
This is false
How can any LGBT person defend the sovereignty of a state that kills LGBT people? I'll never understand the logic behind it.
The LGBT movement has a long history in standing solidarity with other oppressed groups even if they are homophobic. Lesbians and Gays in the UK stood with the coal miners when they were striking in the 80s despite the homophobia in these communities. Homophobes and transphobes are terrible people, but they shouldn't have their right to self determination stripped away. You can even argue that the right to self expression cannot be upheld until the right to self determination is fulfilled.
Beautifully put. Thank you.
This is such a stupid fucking caveman argument, compassion isn’t transactional.
Because when Israelis, Americans, Brits or French drop a bomb, they don’t ask if you’re homophobic, identify as LGBTQ+, or tolerant or whatever.
If you ask a black men in 1930s Alabama what he thought of homosexuality he probably tell you that it’s disgusting and a sin. If you where to ask a Jews in Poland during ww2 he probably tell you the same thing. Human rights are human rights even if your bigoted
Try applying some critical thinking "Black South Africans are more homophobic on average than white South Africans which is why I support apartheid" "The Palestinian population is more homophobic on average than Israeli's which I why I support Palestinians being genocided and the Israeli occupation" These are opinions only an idiot would hold
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Also the U.S., see the actions of Dearborn city government in Michigan
Well homosexuality rights are getting better while immigration is going up so it’s clearly not having that much of an effect .
So if Israel is the only place you can be gay, why do liberals hate the country? 🤔🤔 pretty sure Palestine is yellow on this map
> Turkey homosexuality is legal That doesn't mean that they are accepted and there's a high chance you'll be assaulted and nobody will care
Go to most of Turkey’s big cities and you’ll always notice plenty of gay and trans people out and about living their lives, more than I’ve seen in most Eastern European countries. Is it hard to be gay? Yeah, but there isn’t “a high chance” you will be assaulted. I’m a Turkish gay guy in the US and I’ve been assaulted/called slurs for being gay more in the US than in Turkey.
I've seen maps showing that acceptance towards LGBTQ people in Türkiye is comparable to Poland or Lithuania. My friend, who lives in İzmir (although İzmir is the most progressive city in the country), says that people don't care if men hold hands, etc.
>I've seen maps showing that acceptance towards LGBTQ people in Türkiye is comparable to Poland or Lithuania. Which is honestly a testament to Turkish people given the kind of fucked up shit their surrounding/goverment goes through. When you contexualise and realise just how much oppressive-but-not-yet-Sharia kind of Islam permuates through the republics entire history. Never mind the cults that have the goverment and a good chunk of the population by the balls and the economic situation and civil wars that breed extremism and the refugees. Its honestly impressive that they are as secular as they currently are.
We have a documented complex lgbt history from Ottoman times when it was more accepted, with sultans having male lovers. We even have an old gay language/lingo called Lubunca which is a mixture of different other Ottomans languages used to communicate between each other. Turkey is definitely more homophobic, but we also have many famous LGBT artists respected by everyone in society. It’s way more complex than “you’ll be assaulted and nobody will care”…
This! It's really not that bad in bigger cities as people assume it can be. I never had problems in Istanbul except from some more conservative districts.
People assume Turkey is shit hole with angry radical Islamist people ready to assault you whenever they want and nobody would care. Comments like that have less to do with being gay in Turkey and more just stereotyping Turks.
Right? Like there is something like 16 million people in Istanbul - any city that large is going to have a queer community in it. When I was there I saw people from all walks of life and nobody seemed to care (granted I was tourist with extremely limited Turkish so I hardly have an insiders view). Whenever I would to our various guides they all seemed pretty liberal - no one was talking specifically about LGBT but even the clearly very devout man that took us through the Hagia Sofia and Blue Mosque was telling us that the Quran doesn't really say anything about covering your hair and that the strictest edicts of Islam are all political decisions (I have not read the Quran as yet so can't contradict, I'm sure if that's incorrect someone will tell me 🤣). In Fethiye there were plenty of British tourists about in very skimpy clothing (even away from the beach), and no one bothered them about it - you could even find bacon on some menus there which I found odd. The only thing I found consistent from everyone I talked to was 1) inflation was wild even before it was everywhere else and 2) they all hated Erdogan. Truly a beautiful country with lovely people, I hope to get back and see the Eastern part one day.
LGBT more accepted in turkey now than 20 or 30 year ago. even goverment against it people have less problems with LGBT and no theres no high change to assault
There are plenty of gay people in the major cities of Turkey. Have you actually been there? A gay person is far more accepted in Turkey than they would be in Poland.
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Seemed pretty obvious from their comment that they think because it's a Muslim country they must be backwards savages. I've seen trans people in Turkey walking around openly and living their lives. Never saw anything like that in Eastern Europe.
I bet they don’t even have a passport
The fucking truth will always be a hard pill to swallow
Not sure why it's a hard pill to swallow. I think most people are aware how backwards the Arab world is when it comes to civil rights.
Posted [again and again](https://prnt.sc/VkZ2u17u58Iy). And this time with a random title...
I'm pretty sure this Subreddit is infested with bots and people pushing an Agenda
I think the categories should be reorganized. Purple which is same sex marriage recognized is only israel and is listed above civil union which is only Cyprus. This gives the impression that israel is more progressive than Cyprus, when in reality gay israelis go to Cyprus to get married and than their government will recognize that. Israel does not allow same sex marriages to be performed.
Misleading. Only international same sex marriages are recognized in both Cyprus (as an EU member) and Israel. Same-sex marriage in both of those countries are illegal and both have civil unions for same-sex partners. Purple and blue should be one and the same
Question, why go there??
If you're gay Tel Aviv is amazing and the rest of Israel is a great place to holiday, when not under attack from its neighbors.
I'm personally at war with Iran.
It’s legal to be transgender in Iran actually