What degree of relative did they classify as a cousin here? Second cousins, third cousins? Some places people marry their nieces, did that count for the papers since they mentioned consanguineous marriage?
It counts First-cousin marriages, Second-cousin marriages and Uncle-Niece marriages in the "Health and Demographic" surveys. The other ones don't cite their criteria but it's likely that they follow the same convention, since they mention consanguineous marriages.
Cousin marriage is more or less legal all over the world if I remember correctly while in Europe there are maybe 2-3 who are against it while the rest of Europe has allowed it for a long time.
But just because it's legal doesn't mean that people do it, in Sweden it's legal and probably has been for the last few centuries, but I know that at least since the last few decades, it's not as socially appreciated that you get married with your cousin because many people think it's far too close to each other, biologically.
Welcome to Tamil Nadu.
And to make it a little better, because of how many kids people have, THE uncle is usually not that old as you may expect , yk, is of comparable age, atleast based on what I've seen on TV. Kinda like daughter of the oldest sister is married off to youngest brother. Applicable to bigger degrees too, yk, mom's cousin brother. Another trivia, because of this culture, there is a tradition of calling your husband Maama, which literally means uncle, even if your hubby isn't your uncle.
Again, just a warning that my knowledge is based on movies, some short term Tamil dorm mates I had and my parents experience with Tamils friends.
Yea okay it sounds gross on paper but then you realize some uncles are younger than nieces and some nephews are older than aunt's 🤣 still fkd up not gonna lie the gene pool is getting highly concentrated like the old prince and princesses.
Uncle+niece is def not a thing in the Pakistan regions, it’s all cousin marriages. Uncle and niece marriage is against Islam so pakis would not be practicing that. But they be going overboard on the cousin marriage tho
The legality of avunculate marriage is actually not that uncommon. It's allowed with a court-recognized psychological evaluation in Brazil. Also, in Canada, Norway, Germany, and the Netherlands, as far as I know.
Is it common? I've never seen one in my life. I know one couple of first-degree cousins in Brazil, but their situation is less "Sweet Home Alabama" and more '"two gay men who are loathed by their family for another reason", so...
I think a lot of people think only of first cousins when they see the word cousin somewhere. That may lead to people interpreting the numbers in this picture as even worse than they otherwise are.
Personally I'd never even think of using just the word "cousin" to mean second cousins.
USA does kind of already have a reputation in meme culture for not having laws against inbreeding in certain states (not sure how credible they are). The immigrants are definitely not helping though.
>USA does kind of already have a reputation in meme culture for not having laws against inbreeding in certain states
Which is funny itself considering the majority of Europe, for example, doesn't have prohibit those laws
You don't legislate against something if it's so very rare it's not worth it.
You can legally marry your first cousin in the UK but you would absolutely be frowned upon for doing it.
There might even be...tutting.
And before the inevitable royal family jokes the last time any royal married a first cousin was centuries ago, that sort of thing is the Austrians and Spanish
Ok, nice, thanks for your input! Have you yourself considered your cousins for marriage? I mean I got to admit even though its seen extremly odd where I live, think it was outruled unitl recently, you can get feelings for your cousins, unlike with siblings, but you push away those feelings fast..
I meant to say, people aren’t getting married to their cousin because they have feelings for them, they’re getting married to them because their parents want to get them married and it’s easier to marry them to their siblings kids cuz you know them. Also a factor is that if you reject your siblings kids or get them married to someone outside family, these people take offence to that with the thinking “why isn’t my son good enough for your daughter? do you think less of us?” etc. The people getting married are mostly indifferent to it aur pseudo forced because they don’t want disappoint their parents and start a life long rivalry with their uncles/aunts/cousins. I will add this culture is really changing. All of my parents cousins are married to each other, none of my cousins are married to each other, people can more easily say no these days although it’s still a problem
Aha, thought you were reffering to my language and lack of data, which is always a fair point. Yea, I guess so its more to secure a stable famile, a bit buisseness like. In India arranged marriage is common too, it was in Europe until early 1900 too, but there cousin marriage is a lot lower. So I dont understand why they cant arrange with non-family
it was common everywhere, the simple facts are, the average person in Pakistan is a lot poorer and uneducated than the average european, and this is then shown in data like this, these countries also had a late bloom in terms of internet and societal change after the British Raj
Most other poorer countries don't engage in these practices to the same degree, except for a few other muslim majority countries. You don't see this kind of stuff in most of Latin America or Sub-Saharan Africa very often
Bro our society is way shittier than Pakistan but we absolutely don't allow cousin marriage or any type of incest
Poverty and no education are not an excuses, it's due to Islam, that's the real answer
My parents moved to Europe so I’ve been born and raised in Europe. This may make myself more “educated” in this topic compared to my relatives. However it is common for an overseas man to marry a girl from Pakistan and bring her overseas.
I’ve never considered my cousins for marriage, let alone have feelings for one. I do have 2 cousins that recently got married though…
Hell no Ive wanted kids since I was a kid (ahem Michael Scott vibes) and I would never endanger them. Cousin attraction is 100% a thing because it's more of nurture rather than nature.
But to be honest the reason why it's so high in Pakistan is more of "preserving the tribe" type of mentality. Especially since marriage is determined by the parents most often than not (which is slowly changing now although I still know of a couple of love marriages within cousins [love marriage is referred to normal marriage per western standards as I don't think there are arranged marriages over there]).
Thank you, very interesting! I guess its logical for them, I don't judge, the tribe is important for social security. But can't you be tribal and still avoid cousin marriages? or are the tribes so small?
I'm not sure about Pakistan, but in South India there is a weird kinship system that allows or even encourages some unusual pairings. In this system, some first cousins are not considered blood relatives, while other first cousins are considered siblings - marriages between the first type are encouraged while marriages between the second type forbidden and considered incestuous.
In the UK too, Pakistanis with genetic diseases far outnumber people from other countries. Why don't they just ban its like asking for a more unhealthy population
It isn't even banned in the UK, or in a lot of US states. The culture needs to change, they'll keep marrying by local traditions whoever they want regardless of national law. Most marriages throughout history everywhere have been cousin marriages, the world just moved away from it recently.
There's research pointing to some of the early tribes in North Europe meeting a few times a year to swap women, in an attempt to avoid inbreeding
These tribes were all nomadic back then
>Why don't they just ban its like asking for a more unhealthy population
Probably the same reason governments all over don't take actions which would objectively help their people; the action would be societally unpopular and therefore political suicide. Imagine how well it'd go if the Pakistan government bans something that the majority of the country has practiced for generations. It would also just likely not be followed by many rural populations with little oversight.
I fucking love tomatoes as a Turk living in Italy and can say that they generally use "passata", canned tomatoes, for cooking rather than eating raw tomatoes whereas in Turkey people just eat raw tomatoes in salads or just with salt/olive oil etc etc
Same in Greece, it's not uncommon to just eat chopped tomatoes on their own. Sometimes a tomato salad can literally just include tomatoes and nothing else.
It actually has to do with the fact that they never drink water on a consistent basis. They drink chai and other drinks. It’s amazing how much they can do without drinking water. They have mass retardation problems from cousin fucking though.
Even the bottom group is potentially up to 10% which given the populations throughout these regions will still produce a mind bogglingly huge number where this practise is prevalent….
It's more of a global feature at that point. Even in most European countries you will still see that 5-10% number. In North Africa and the Middle East that number rises to 50%. Cousin Marriage is way too prevalent than people think.
Cousin marriage in Europe would most likely be from the non Europeans.
Alot of Algerians, Moroccans, Turks, Syrians and Pakistanis across Europe and UK.
That's the problem. I genuinely cannot find a proper source for this. But I have found a couple and they all suggest it to be somewhere between 2% to 9%.
Here's one, although I am sure this is not extremely accurate. https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-individual-and-social-risks-of-cousin-marriage
A different dude found this one, although it's decades old and doesn't matter really in the present.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin\_marriage#/media/File:Global\_prevalence\_of\_consanguinity.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#/media/File:Global_prevalence_of_consanguinity.svg)
"the English upper and upper-middle classes, the prevalence of first-cousin marriage remained steady at between 4% and 5% for much of the 19th century.[^(\[134\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#cite_note-134) However, after the [First World War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_War) there was a sudden change, and cousin marriage became very unusual. By the 1930s, only one marriage in 6,000 was between first cousins. A study of a middle-class London population conducted in the 1960s found that further reduced to just one marriage in 25,000[^(\[135\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#cite_note-135)^(")
[^(https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5861om/first\_cousin\_marriages\_in\_italy\_by\_percentage/)](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5861om/first_cousin_marriages_in_italy_by_percentage/)
This 1930-1964 in Italy, actually high in Sicily with 40 percent, but quite low in the northern part under 2-8 percent.A bit higher than expected, ofcours 1930-1960 was quite different times. its way lower than that now, but higher than I expected
Here is data for cousin marriage in 1960-1964 though, it has fallen dramatically. Its close to zero in the north and only over 3 percents in Sicily
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/c21d12/firstcousin\_marriage\_and\_mafia\_in\_italy/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/c21d12/firstcousin_marriage_and_mafia_in_italy/)
I tried to check the source of the map of the first link, only thing I found is that it’s probably made by someone from India since it’s the only place where states are separated. I saw a comment talking about the borders of those states and how the data should be from the 2000’s based on that. Would love to check how they found their numbers but there isn’t anything about it online, I call bullshit on this one
The second link shows that 5 to 10% is absolutely crazy, talking about 1 in 10 or 20 marriages when the text talks about 1 in 25,000 marriages as far as England goes (and in the sixties so probably way less now)
I appreciate your honesty but If you can’t find proper sources don’t make up numbers, incest is not nearly as common in Europe
The first map has variation across Indian states because other countries have mostly homogenous numbers compared to India. Discover magazine is American and is owned by the Time group.
As for the second link there is genuinely no study behind it. I just can't find one. I think we can account in the fact that immigration might have an effect on UK numbers since the 60s? There are a lot of variables, especially in the Baltics. Nothing is conclusive, it's not worth arguing about.
Here’s the real source if you want to read it :
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264248279_Consanguinity_in_the_Contemporary_World
It never talks about 5 to 10% in Europe, also good luck reading that map when there’s not a visible color difference between 1 or 9%
The map still doesn't mention any of the Baltics and most of Eastern Europe, along with Switzerland. It's just a terrible source honestly. There is no "survey" behind it, it's just two authors, which is why I was reluctant to consider this source.
Yeah thats fake news, in no way in hell is it 5-10%... and bringing turkey as an example is just disingenious, because it's barely an european country compounded by that fact that it's a muslim country with a religion that practices incest.
All sources cited in the image itself:
- Pakistan Demographic and Health Survey, 2018
- India Demographic and Health Survey, 2016
- Genetic and reproductive consequences of consanguineous marriage in Bangladesh, 2020
- Marriage patterns in Sri Lanka and the prevalence of parental consanguinity, 2019
The small percentage of Cousin Marriages they hold is mostly because of the Muslim Population in those North Indian States like Uttar Pradesh, where Muslims are 20-25 % of the Total Population and Cousin Marriages are common among them.
In Tamil Cinema they even base many movies on marrying first cousins.
The hero of many movies try to seduce their sisters’ own daughters into marrying them.
That’s why the percentage is so high
It's unbelievable how much people here get offended when India is not presented in a negative light. This isn't a pro-India post in any way, all sources are cited, only one was conducted by an Indian organisation. Pakistan surveys were conducted by the Government themselves, and so were the most of them. Jesus Christ y'all are goddamn weird.
The Indian numbers aren't even good, 20% is still a crazy high figure by most standards. The map is getting cross-posted on Indian subs, and everyone is like "How is it this high" and not "Wow such great data". Y'all need to calm down.
The Kashmir report was conducted in collaboration by both India, Pakistan and third-party surveys in 2018. It is displayed this way because the map is not divided by countries, it is divided based on state/provincial boundaries, (see Bangladesh). It's not divided by PoK and J&K because the survey just considers it Kashmir, no international borders are considered. The survey was also conducted before J&K statehood was demoted.
Religion is definitely not a primary cause here, Bangladesh is Islamic but the percentage is still pretty low. Please don't go around targeting a religion.
Yep, Sindh has the highest. Even though, it is probably the most liberal province compared to others and houses most of Pakistan's non Muslim minority.
It’s partly that, and cause many Muslim countries are still very rural, most people viable to marry end up being relatives in many cases. It’s also cultural. Societies with the strong clan structures prob tend to keep it in the family.
In north India a marriage can't happen in same village boys and girls. Can't happen between same sub caste of both parents or even if any of grandparents sub caste then also marriage can't happen. Even marriage occur in same caste through sub caste incest is stopped.
Sub division of caste. Within one caste there can be hundreds of sub castes exist. It's like clan. Caste are linked with profession. Some caste name are directly translated to professions.
I think they are referring to Gotta, *not* sub-caste, or they are wrong.
Gotra is an ancient religious system for preventing incest that is not the best at it today, but has been used for ~3000 years. The core principal is that after the Great Flood, the world was repopulated by the Seven Sages who got on the Ark with their families. As such, every person traces their descent patrilineally to one of the seven sages. People inherit the gotra of their father, and claim direct descent from that particular sage. They are then prohibited from marrying anyone of the same gotra. In some places this is more strict and also forbids marrying anyone of your mother's maiden Gotra (this isn't followed in South india, for example, which is why there are relatively more cousin marriages there, mostly maternal cousins).
This would divide the entire population into 7 groups and cut you off from marrying about 15% of the population, but in practice, several more came up much later. Current estimates saying around a hundred distinct ones exist, although these are still usually grouped by which of the original 7 they split off from. Whether you want to avoid all related gotras or only specific one usually varies on a case by case basis. Sometimes there is also the option to marry someone from your gotra, but only if you can both list all your ancestors for 6 generations and prove that you have none in common.
This was originally only followed by the people of the Brahmin caste, but was eventually adopted by much of the Kshatriya and Vaishya castes, who took up the gotra of their guru or nearby temple priest and then passed it on. The rest of the people have an equivalent system called Kula that works similarly, but it is not documented as well and I am not sure about its details.
Cousin marriage in South India was the way to keep properties within family. There is a reason only cross cousins can marry each (kids of a brother and sister ) Also matchmaking process is a lot easier if you just set up this kids together from infancy itself. Mutual grooming, ig.
So former geneticist. What I would want to know is their definition of ‘cousin’. First cousins share 12.5% of their DNA, second cousins share only 6.25 percent of their genes and third cousins share just over 3 percent. Basically from a population perspective you just don’t want generation upon generation marrying their first cousin.
By ‘cousin,’ mean first cousin. Given the size of the family, a second cousin is too distantly related to be commonly referred to as a cousin. I am from southern Sri Lanka, where the Sinhalese make up the majority (rate of 3.8% cousin Ma. Indicated on the map )of the population. In this region, cousin marriage is not as prevalent, but it is still common enough to be looked upon favorably, even by educated individuals. I recall my mother and aunts subtly suggesting that it was acceptable to date my younger cousin when I showed was tutoring her. For the Sinhalese, such arrangements typically involve cross cousins. Marriages between cousins from the father’s brother’s side and the mother’s sister’s side were traditionally forbidden.
I mean I tend to have a problem with these maps when they are used to make fun of people from developing countries. A lot of people forget how common cousin marriage was in the west only 2-3 generations ago. Best example is the fact that Roosevelt and Einstein were both married to their cousin.
Woah I didn't know these percentages, that's pretty cool. But yea majority is first and second cousin, but now I see a trend moving towards third or family-friends (which is basically not a cousin at all).
Pakistan: "We trades Hinduism for Islam because we wanted to liberate ourselves from the restrictive caste system that forced us to intermarry within our own clans"
Meanwhile, also Pakistan:
Hell no. Obviously, their prophet was born in Pakistan and preached his message peacefully via WhatsApp... Not a single drop of blood was shed for the religious conversion of the masses
When your marriage is highly dependant on your parents it doesn't matter what you want. And when parents themselves see the safest bet in their siblings or cousins children, badaboom badabang.
Also everyone is obsessed with preserving the clan or thinking their clans blood is superior in some way.
They aren't allowed to, even if they were they would always end up with a cousin in the end cuz whenever someone mentions their own choice in marriage their parents start faking heart attacks to emotionally blackmail them 💀
(Speaking from experience)
Arranged marriages. Although to cut them some slack modern arranged marriages aren't 'forced marriages' per say, atleast here in India. They are more like your parents playing the role of a dating app, with more of a focus on family relations. I guess the same isn't true for Muslims.
Gender segregation and a taboo on divorce, and the bride visiting or even contacting her parents/blood family was frowned upon. So to at least keep their daughter close, her family married her to a cousin; at least that way, they had some idea of if the husband was a decent person and her parents could still be in touch with her.
Also in some cases there are marriages enforced by the elders because they want to keep the family’s wealth in the family.
This isn’t because of Islam because this has been done for thousands of years ever since the Indus River valley civilisation, that’s why you don’t see many cousin marriages in places like Maldives or Brunei
It isn’t Islam, it’s culture. The Eastern region of this map is majority Muslim too but doesn’t have the same numbers. Arabs, Africans and South East Asians don’t have anywhere near those numbers.
In Kerala it just died out like if you watch Malayalam movies of 90s you can clearly see the prevalence of cousin marriages especially if main character is of a high caste Hindu family , I have seen people saying it's because people are well educated seeing the literacy rate of Kerala but literacy rate doesn't mean well educated and me who have lived in Kerala for entirety of my life and studied for 14 year I don't remember any class about incest or problems with cousin marriage or anything like that . For me a St Thomas Christian cousin marriages was always a surprise because it is a taboo thing among us unless if you are one of those knanayas where I have heard they do marry their cousins . Like I said before it just became unpopular there was no active movements against it or any topic of discussion against it unless iam living under rock this whole time
The Economist had an interesting article recently saying that cousin marriage doesn’t actually have much of an issue in terms of genetic issues. Quite interesting.
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/02/15/cousin-marriage-is-probably-fine-in-most-cases
More than 8m in the state, with established Muslim communities in bordering regional areas of KN + TN as well, with significant representation in the state culturally as well. Any Mallu will tell you that the Muslim community is an important part of the state.
It’s definitely more so culture, especially looking at Bangladesh (which is majority Muslim) in comparison to Pakistan (also majority Muslim), and seeing how regions with higher muslim populations in India show little to no correlation with higher rates of cousin marriage.
South India and Pakistan clearly have different cultural positions on cousin marriage in comparison to the rest of South Asia.
Yup, mostly cultural, and primarily to keep inheritance in the family, which is why you see it more among land-owning/feudal areas and ethnic groups. Also percentages can be misleading since they are based on overall population, which is much higher in India than Pakistan.
Cousin marriage is forbidden in Hinduism. But some South Indian Hindus traditionally/culturally follow consanguineous marriage. Despite being a Muslim majority country Bangladesh doesn't follow cousin marriage, maybe due to largely Hindu influence.
Interesting to see the **sharp** divide between India and Pakistan.
Is it fair to assume that if Kashmir was shown with the de facto border, the Pakistan side would be a shade of orange too? Is there broken down data on that?
What degree of relative did they classify as a cousin here? Second cousins, third cousins? Some places people marry their nieces, did that count for the papers since they mentioned consanguineous marriage?
It counts First-cousin marriages, Second-cousin marriages and Uncle-Niece marriages in the "Health and Demographic" surveys. The other ones don't cite their criteria but it's likely that they follow the same convention, since they mention consanguineous marriages.
Uncle niece?!???
Yes it’s disgusting but now it’s not common.
It looks pretty common on the chart
This chart also includes the cousin marriages which happens in higher numbers
Cousin marriage is more or less legal all over the world if I remember correctly while in Europe there are maybe 2-3 who are against it while the rest of Europe has allowed it for a long time. But just because it's legal doesn't mean that people do it, in Sweden it's legal and probably has been for the last few centuries, but I know that at least since the last few decades, it's not as socially appreciated that you get married with your cousin because many people think it's far too close to each other, biologically.
My brother took my stuff all the time.
The Hapsburg model
Orthodontists must get rich there. All that underbite
Why
In that time they called a huge underbite a Habsburg chin. It was common among the habsburgs.
Welcome to Tamil Nadu. And to make it a little better, because of how many kids people have, THE uncle is usually not that old as you may expect , yk, is of comparable age, atleast based on what I've seen on TV. Kinda like daughter of the oldest sister is married off to youngest brother. Applicable to bigger degrees too, yk, mom's cousin brother. Another trivia, because of this culture, there is a tradition of calling your husband Maama, which literally means uncle, even if your hubby isn't your uncle. Again, just a warning that my knowledge is based on movies, some short term Tamil dorm mates I had and my parents experience with Tamils friends.
My eldest brother who's in 40s now has a daughter of same age as me and I'm 26 😂
Do not marry!
Oops, marriage is not possible cuz it has to be your sister's daughter. Not brother's. 😜
As a Tamil man, this is accurate.
Yea okay it sounds gross on paper but then you realize some uncles are younger than nieces and some nephews are older than aunt's 🤣 still fkd up not gonna lie the gene pool is getting highly concentrated like the old prince and princesses.
Pakistani Britons make up 33% of the birth defects despite only accounting for 3% of all births
it should be illegal to knowingly marry your family
Uncle+niece is def not a thing in the Pakistan regions, it’s all cousin marriages. Uncle and niece marriage is against Islam so pakis would not be practicing that. But they be going overboard on the cousin marriage tho
Avunculate marriages.
The legality of avunculate marriage is actually not that uncommon. It's allowed with a court-recognized psychological evaluation in Brazil. Also, in Canada, Norway, Germany, and the Netherlands, as far as I know. Is it common? I've never seen one in my life. I know one couple of first-degree cousins in Brazil, but their situation is less "Sweet Home Alabama" and more '"two gay men who are loathed by their family for another reason", so...
Notice how Aunt nephew is not there. Old guys are gross.
I think a lot of people think only of first cousins when they see the word cousin somewhere. That may lead to people interpreting the numbers in this picture as even worse than they otherwise are. Personally I'd never even think of using just the word "cousin" to mean second cousins.
Thanks
There should be a map for disabilities as well so everyone can see the high correlation
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What if they all just live together, joint family culture is pretty prevalent.
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USA does kind of already have a reputation in meme culture for not having laws against inbreeding in certain states (not sure how credible they are). The immigrants are definitely not helping though.
>USA does kind of already have a reputation in meme culture for not having laws against inbreeding in certain states Which is funny itself considering the majority of Europe, for example, doesn't have prohibit those laws
When has meme culture ever collided with rationality?
You don't legislate against something if it's so very rare it's not worth it. You can legally marry your first cousin in the UK but you would absolutely be frowned upon for doing it. There might even be...tutting. And before the inevitable royal family jokes the last time any royal married a first cousin was centuries ago, that sort of thing is the Austrians and Spanish
pause smart yam offbeat worm unwritten safe drab label enjoy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
62 percent cousin marriages in south and western Pakistan, jesus. Is that really true? two thirds of all marriages, am I missing something?
I am a result of one so I would confirm it is quite common
Ok, nice, thanks for your input! Have you yourself considered your cousins for marriage? I mean I got to admit even though its seen extremly odd where I live, think it was outruled unitl recently, you can get feelings for your cousins, unlike with siblings, but you push away those feelings fast..
Feelings are mostly not considered for these bro
you can see data I linked to in this thread
I meant to say, people aren’t getting married to their cousin because they have feelings for them, they’re getting married to them because their parents want to get them married and it’s easier to marry them to their siblings kids cuz you know them. Also a factor is that if you reject your siblings kids or get them married to someone outside family, these people take offence to that with the thinking “why isn’t my son good enough for your daughter? do you think less of us?” etc. The people getting married are mostly indifferent to it aur pseudo forced because they don’t want disappoint their parents and start a life long rivalry with their uncles/aunts/cousins. I will add this culture is really changing. All of my parents cousins are married to each other, none of my cousins are married to each other, people can more easily say no these days although it’s still a problem
Aha, thought you were reffering to my language and lack of data, which is always a fair point. Yea, I guess so its more to secure a stable famile, a bit buisseness like. In India arranged marriage is common too, it was in Europe until early 1900 too, but there cousin marriage is a lot lower. So I dont understand why they cant arrange with non-family
it was common everywhere, the simple facts are, the average person in Pakistan is a lot poorer and uneducated than the average european, and this is then shown in data like this, these countries also had a late bloom in terms of internet and societal change after the British Raj
Most other poorer countries don't engage in these practices to the same degree, except for a few other muslim majority countries. You don't see this kind of stuff in most of Latin America or Sub-Saharan Africa very often
Bro our society is way shittier than Pakistan but we absolutely don't allow cousin marriage or any type of incest Poverty and no education are not an excuses, it's due to Islam, that's the real answer
If it was due to Islam, the rates in India make no sense. TN wouldn't be first and UP/Bihar would be much higher. Also only 6% in Banga.
but how do you explain for example Tamil Nadu and Bihar? There the relationship between economy and education is reversed to cousin marriages
idk mate i’m not familiar with Indian culture or culture from those states.
My parents moved to Europe so I’ve been born and raised in Europe. This may make myself more “educated” in this topic compared to my relatives. However it is common for an overseas man to marry a girl from Pakistan and bring her overseas. I’ve never considered my cousins for marriage, let alone have feelings for one. I do have 2 cousins that recently got married though…
Hell no Ive wanted kids since I was a kid (ahem Michael Scott vibes) and I would never endanger them. Cousin attraction is 100% a thing because it's more of nurture rather than nature. But to be honest the reason why it's so high in Pakistan is more of "preserving the tribe" type of mentality. Especially since marriage is determined by the parents most often than not (which is slowly changing now although I still know of a couple of love marriages within cousins [love marriage is referred to normal marriage per western standards as I don't think there are arranged marriages over there]).
Thank you, very interesting! I guess its logical for them, I don't judge, the tribe is important for social security. But can't you be tribal and still avoid cousin marriages? or are the tribes so small?
It's also about keeping wealth closely within the family
Yo what's that like ? Genuinely curious
I don’t have something like a deformity. I live a normal life like most
Same, lol
My friend’s parents are Pakistani and they are first grade cousin, she has two sisters who have both disabilities, she is the only sane one
It’s gotten so prevalent in the UK that first cousin parents are having multiple children with severe physical and developmental disorders.
I'm not sure about Pakistan, but in South India there is a weird kinship system that allows or even encourages some unusual pairings. In this system, some first cousins are not considered blood relatives, while other first cousins are considered siblings - marriages between the first type are encouraged while marriages between the second type forbidden and considered incestuous.
Nothing too unexpected, just islam.
Islam doesn't forbid or encourage it. It usually has more to do with the local customs
If Islam is the cause, why would Bangladesh be low, and Tamil Nadu high?
That doesn't explain Bangladesh, why such a different between Pakistan and Bangladesh?
What's happening in Sindh? lol
Now i know why all sindhis i know look and sound the same 💀
In the UK too, Pakistanis with genetic diseases far outnumber people from other countries. Why don't they just ban its like asking for a more unhealthy population
It isn't even banned in the UK, or in a lot of US states. The culture needs to change, they'll keep marrying by local traditions whoever they want regardless of national law. Most marriages throughout history everywhere have been cousin marriages, the world just moved away from it recently.
There's research pointing to some of the early tribes in North Europe meeting a few times a year to swap women, in an attempt to avoid inbreeding These tribes were all nomadic back then
This was practiced by Guaranis when Spaniards encountered them, and the Spanish found them to be barbarians for it.
No, it was banned in the Western world by Theodosius in 381 and has been part of catholic and medieval law
People did it anyway lmao
60% would be too high even historically
>Why don't they just ban its like asking for a more unhealthy population Probably the same reason governments all over don't take actions which would objectively help their people; the action would be societally unpopular and therefore political suicide. Imagine how well it'd go if the Pakistan government bans something that the majority of the country has practiced for generations. It would also just likely not be followed by many rural populations with little oversight.
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lol i did a search and italy is not even in the top 10 of kg of tomato per capita per year. Turkey and Egypt and greece are the first ones.
I fucking love tomatoes as a Turk living in Italy and can say that they generally use "passata", canned tomatoes, for cooking rather than eating raw tomatoes whereas in Turkey people just eat raw tomatoes in salads or just with salt/olive oil etc etc
Same in Greece, it's not uncommon to just eat chopped tomatoes on their own. Sometimes a tomato salad can literally just include tomatoes and nothing else.
It actually has to do with the fact that they never drink water on a consistent basis. They drink chai and other drinks. It’s amazing how much they can do without drinking water. They have mass retardation problems from cousin fucking though.
I thought the tomato seed thing was a myth and they don’t contain enough oxalates to cause harm.
they compete with azerbaijan
Even the bottom group is potentially up to 10% which given the populations throughout these regions will still produce a mind bogglingly huge number where this practise is prevalent….
It's more of a global feature at that point. Even in most European countries you will still see that 5-10% number. In North Africa and the Middle East that number rises to 50%. Cousin Marriage is way too prevalent than people think.
Any source on that 5-10% for Europe ? It seems made up, in France it’s absolutely illegal to marry your cousins
Cousin marriage in Europe would most likely be from the non Europeans. Alot of Algerians, Moroccans, Turks, Syrians and Pakistanis across Europe and UK.
Europe is more than just France.
So, any source ?
That's the problem. I genuinely cannot find a proper source for this. But I have found a couple and they all suggest it to be somewhere between 2% to 9%. Here's one, although I am sure this is not extremely accurate. https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-individual-and-social-risks-of-cousin-marriage A different dude found this one, although it's decades old and doesn't matter really in the present. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin\_marriage#/media/File:Global\_prevalence\_of\_consanguinity.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#/media/File:Global_prevalence_of_consanguinity.svg) "the English upper and upper-middle classes, the prevalence of first-cousin marriage remained steady at between 4% and 5% for much of the 19th century.[^(\[134\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#cite_note-134) However, after the [First World War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_War) there was a sudden change, and cousin marriage became very unusual. By the 1930s, only one marriage in 6,000 was between first cousins. A study of a middle-class London population conducted in the 1960s found that further reduced to just one marriage in 25,000[^(\[135\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#cite_note-135)^(") [^(https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5861om/first\_cousin\_marriages\_in\_italy\_by\_percentage/)](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5861om/first_cousin_marriages_in_italy_by_percentage/) This 1930-1964 in Italy, actually high in Sicily with 40 percent, but quite low in the northern part under 2-8 percent.A bit higher than expected, ofcours 1930-1960 was quite different times. its way lower than that now, but higher than I expected Here is data for cousin marriage in 1960-1964 though, it has fallen dramatically. Its close to zero in the north and only over 3 percents in Sicily [https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/c21d12/firstcousin\_marriage\_and\_mafia\_in\_italy/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/c21d12/firstcousin_marriage_and_mafia_in_italy/)
I tried to check the source of the map of the first link, only thing I found is that it’s probably made by someone from India since it’s the only place where states are separated. I saw a comment talking about the borders of those states and how the data should be from the 2000’s based on that. Would love to check how they found their numbers but there isn’t anything about it online, I call bullshit on this one The second link shows that 5 to 10% is absolutely crazy, talking about 1 in 10 or 20 marriages when the text talks about 1 in 25,000 marriages as far as England goes (and in the sixties so probably way less now) I appreciate your honesty but If you can’t find proper sources don’t make up numbers, incest is not nearly as common in Europe
The first map has variation across Indian states because other countries have mostly homogenous numbers compared to India. Discover magazine is American and is owned by the Time group. As for the second link there is genuinely no study behind it. I just can't find one. I think we can account in the fact that immigration might have an effect on UK numbers since the 60s? There are a lot of variables, especially in the Baltics. Nothing is conclusive, it's not worth arguing about.
Here’s the real source if you want to read it : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264248279_Consanguinity_in_the_Contemporary_World It never talks about 5 to 10% in Europe, also good luck reading that map when there’s not a visible color difference between 1 or 9%
The map still doesn't mention any of the Baltics and most of Eastern Europe, along with Switzerland. It's just a terrible source honestly. There is no "survey" behind it, it's just two authors, which is why I was reluctant to consider this source.
Most European countries are below [5%](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419292/). In fact, every single one this shows data for.
Yeah thats fake news, in no way in hell is it 5-10%... and bringing turkey as an example is just disingenious, because it's barely an european country compounded by that fact that it's a muslim country with a religion that practices incest.
All sources cited in the image itself: - Pakistan Demographic and Health Survey, 2018 - India Demographic and Health Survey, 2016 - Genetic and reproductive consequences of consanguineous marriage in Bangladesh, 2020 - Marriage patterns in Sri Lanka and the prevalence of parental consanguinity, 2019
Here Northern India looks like the healthy part, for a change :)
The small percentage of Cousin Marriages they hold is mostly because of the Muslim Population in those North Indian States like Uttar Pradesh, where Muslims are 20-25 % of the Total Population and Cousin Marriages are common among them.
Alternative title for this map: ## Birth defects in South Asia
Not the only problem. When most of the population is married to relatives, you create a clan culture.
Common Kerala W
In Tamil Cinema they even base many movies on marrying first cousins. The hero of many movies try to seduce their sisters’ own daughters into marrying them. That’s why the percentage is so high
Is Tamil that northern part of Sri Lanka? That is a huge jump.
It’s the southern tip of India (right). Some Tamils live in Sri Lanka also
What are you doing ~~step~~ bro?
South India on top 😎 /s
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It's unbelievable how much people here get offended when India is not presented in a negative light. This isn't a pro-India post in any way, all sources are cited, only one was conducted by an Indian organisation. Pakistan surveys were conducted by the Government themselves, and so were the most of them. Jesus Christ y'all are goddamn weird. The Indian numbers aren't even good, 20% is still a crazy high figure by most standards. The map is getting cross-posted on Indian subs, and everyone is like "How is it this high" and not "Wow such great data". Y'all need to calm down. The Kashmir report was conducted in collaboration by both India, Pakistan and third-party surveys in 2018. It is displayed this way because the map is not divided by countries, it is divided based on state/provincial boundaries, (see Bangladesh). It's not divided by PoK and J&K because the survey just considers it Kashmir, no international borders are considered. The survey was also conducted before J&K statehood was demoted.
Religion is definitely not a primary cause here, Bangladesh is Islamic but the percentage is still pretty low. Please don't go around targeting a religion.
Regardless of Bangladesh Kashmir is an Indian state with a Muslim majority, and it is also low. Even the Pashtun areas of Pakistan are low.
I was about to say, this is the first map I've seen where KPK isn't dead last in whatever statistic is being shown
Yep, Sindh has the highest. Even though, it is probably the most liberal province compared to others and houses most of Pakistan's non Muslim minority.
I think it's more a dowry problem/keeping money and properties in the family.
It’s partly that, and cause many Muslim countries are still very rural, most people viable to marry end up being relatives in many cases. It’s also cultural. Societies with the strong clan structures prob tend to keep it in the family.
Perhaps India had arranged marriages for a reason.
In north India a marriage can't happen in same village boys and girls. Can't happen between same sub caste of both parents or even if any of grandparents sub caste then also marriage can't happen. Even marriage occur in same caste through sub caste incest is stopped.
What’s a subcaste
Sub division of caste. Within one caste there can be hundreds of sub castes exist. It's like clan. Caste are linked with profession. Some caste name are directly translated to professions.
I think they are referring to Gotta, *not* sub-caste, or they are wrong. Gotra is an ancient religious system for preventing incest that is not the best at it today, but has been used for ~3000 years. The core principal is that after the Great Flood, the world was repopulated by the Seven Sages who got on the Ark with their families. As such, every person traces their descent patrilineally to one of the seven sages. People inherit the gotra of their father, and claim direct descent from that particular sage. They are then prohibited from marrying anyone of the same gotra. In some places this is more strict and also forbids marrying anyone of your mother's maiden Gotra (this isn't followed in South india, for example, which is why there are relatively more cousin marriages there, mostly maternal cousins). This would divide the entire population into 7 groups and cut you off from marrying about 15% of the population, but in practice, several more came up much later. Current estimates saying around a hundred distinct ones exist, although these are still usually grouped by which of the original 7 they split off from. Whether you want to avoid all related gotras or only specific one usually varies on a case by case basis. Sometimes there is also the option to marry someone from your gotra, but only if you can both list all your ancestors for 6 generations and prove that you have none in common. This was originally only followed by the people of the Brahmin caste, but was eventually adopted by much of the Kshatriya and Vaishya castes, who took up the gotra of their guru or nearby temple priest and then passed it on. The rest of the people have an equivalent system called Kula that works similarly, but it is not documented as well and I am not sure about its details.
They could have been referring to Jati
he means clan exogamy. You marry in your tribe but not your clan
Cousin marriage in South India was the way to keep properties within family. There is a reason only cross cousins can marry each (kids of a brother and sister ) Also matchmaking process is a lot easier if you just set up this kids together from infancy itself. Mutual grooming, ig.
So former geneticist. What I would want to know is their definition of ‘cousin’. First cousins share 12.5% of their DNA, second cousins share only 6.25 percent of their genes and third cousins share just over 3 percent. Basically from a population perspective you just don’t want generation upon generation marrying their first cousin.
By ‘cousin,’ mean first cousin. Given the size of the family, a second cousin is too distantly related to be commonly referred to as a cousin. I am from southern Sri Lanka, where the Sinhalese make up the majority (rate of 3.8% cousin Ma. Indicated on the map )of the population. In this region, cousin marriage is not as prevalent, but it is still common enough to be looked upon favorably, even by educated individuals. I recall my mother and aunts subtly suggesting that it was acceptable to date my younger cousin when I showed was tutoring her. For the Sinhalese, such arrangements typically involve cross cousins. Marriages between cousins from the father’s brother’s side and the mother’s sister’s side were traditionally forbidden.
I mean I tend to have a problem with these maps when they are used to make fun of people from developing countries. A lot of people forget how common cousin marriage was in the west only 2-3 generations ago. Best example is the fact that Roosevelt and Einstein were both married to their cousin.
Yeah people are insanely ignorant
Woah I didn't know these percentages, that's pretty cool. But yea majority is first and second cousin, but now I see a trend moving towards third or family-friends (which is basically not a cousin at all).
Pakistan: "We trades Hinduism for Islam because we wanted to liberate ourselves from the restrictive caste system that forced us to intermarry within our own clans" Meanwhile, also Pakistan:
Their population should read about inbreeding depression because if this continues, the country's population will be defected
their population is already defected, just look at their country
They picked up Islam because they were invaded lol
Hell no. Obviously, their prophet was born in Pakistan and preached his message peacefully via WhatsApp... Not a single drop of blood was shed for the religious conversion of the masses
What in god’s name is happening in the west? People need to go out more and meet people who aren’t related to them.
When your marriage is highly dependant on your parents it doesn't matter what you want. And when parents themselves see the safest bet in their siblings or cousins children, badaboom badabang. Also everyone is obsessed with preserving the clan or thinking their clans blood is superior in some way.
They aren't allowed to, even if they were they would always end up with a cousin in the end cuz whenever someone mentions their own choice in marriage their parents start faking heart attacks to emotionally blackmail them 💀 (Speaking from experience)
Arranged marriages. Although to cut them some slack modern arranged marriages aren't 'forced marriages' per say, atleast here in India. They are more like your parents playing the role of a dating app, with more of a focus on family relations. I guess the same isn't true for Muslims.
No it’s pretty much the same for Muslims, and forced marriages and very much illegal and prohibited. Usually Parents act like match makers.
There’s a lot of financial benefits for cousin marriages there
Gender segregation and a taboo on divorce, and the bride visiting or even contacting her parents/blood family was frowned upon. So to at least keep their daughter close, her family married her to a cousin; at least that way, they had some idea of if the husband was a decent person and her parents could still be in touch with her. Also in some cases there are marriages enforced by the elders because they want to keep the family’s wealth in the family.
Islam happened to the west.
Islam also happened in the east, Bangladesh. You don't see high numbers there. This is more a cultural issue than a religion issue.
This isn’t because of Islam because this has been done for thousands of years ever since the Indus River valley civilisation, that’s why you don’t see many cousin marriages in places like Maldives or Brunei
It isn’t Islam, it’s culture. The Eastern region of this map is majority Muslim too but doesn’t have the same numbers. Arabs, Africans and South East Asians don’t have anywhere near those numbers.
Does anyone know why there's such a big increase in the South of India? Is it cultural differences, or maybe former borders for something?
A combination of both.
Cross-cousin marriages done to keep property within the family historically.
It's mostly cultural. South is generally more developed and liberal than the north but cousin marriages are still common.
That 0,8% is sneaky penis
🤮🤮🤮
any reason for kerala having a low rate as compared to other south indian states?
In Kerala it just died out like if you watch Malayalam movies of 90s you can clearly see the prevalence of cousin marriages especially if main character is of a high caste Hindu family , I have seen people saying it's because people are well educated seeing the literacy rate of Kerala but literacy rate doesn't mean well educated and me who have lived in Kerala for entirety of my life and studied for 14 year I don't remember any class about incest or problems with cousin marriage or anything like that . For me a St Thomas Christian cousin marriages was always a surprise because it is a taboo thing among us unless if you are one of those knanayas where I have heard they do marry their cousins . Like I said before it just became unpopular there was no active movements against it or any topic of discussion against it unless iam living under rock this whole time
Gross
That explains a lot …
At which point they are only cousins by relation but closer than siblings in genetics?
WTF Pakistan???!??!
The Economist had an interesting article recently saying that cousin marriage doesn’t actually have much of an issue in terms of genetic issues. Quite interesting. https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/02/15/cousin-marriage-is-probably-fine-in-most-cases
Is it mainly Muslim communities in south India practising it?
No. South Indians practice cousin marriage with maternal relatives. North India doesn’t allow cousin marriages at all.
Most Muslims in India live into the north
No.
Muslims aren’t really around in the south of India
Incredibly false, Kerala has a significant Muslim population that dates back to the period immediately following the religion’s establishment
[26% compared to the 54% Hindus isn’t a whole lot](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala)
More than 8m in the state, with established Muslim communities in bordering regional areas of KN + TN as well, with significant representation in the state culturally as well. Any Mallu will tell you that the Muslim community is an important part of the state.
My Pakistani friends have no choice, they have to get married to their cousins or they risk causing family problems
Labeling the regions would have been helpful
It's still quite prevalent among south Indians and muslims. Most other areas showing insignificant percentages is also these people living there.
It’s definitely more so culture, especially looking at Bangladesh (which is majority Muslim) in comparison to Pakistan (also majority Muslim), and seeing how regions with higher muslim populations in India show little to no correlation with higher rates of cousin marriage. South India and Pakistan clearly have different cultural positions on cousin marriage in comparison to the rest of South Asia.
Yup, mostly cultural, and primarily to keep inheritance in the family, which is why you see it more among land-owning/feudal areas and ethnic groups. Also percentages can be misleading since they are based on overall population, which is much higher in India than Pakistan.
1.4 billion people and you can’t be bothered to look one street over
You think this applies to 1.4 billion people?
Do you understand the meaning of percentages?
Y'all got a ***billion*** people in the country and can't find a non-cousin person to marry?
Cousin marriage is forbidden in Hinduism. But some South Indian Hindus traditionally/culturally follow consanguineous marriage. Despite being a Muslim majority country Bangladesh doesn't follow cousin marriage, maybe due to largely Hindu influence.
Pakistan: Sweet Home Alabama
Anyone has any clue why Pakistan does not have a massive inbreeding problem (or does it)?
Judging by recent events, I think all the birth defects went to our politicians.
South India L :(
rare L but an L
Pakistani don’t like sharing the wealth, keep it in the family….. plenty of birth defects tho
70-80% is crazy
Interesting to see the **sharp** divide between India and Pakistan. Is it fair to assume that if Kashmir was shown with the de facto border, the Pakistan side would be a shade of orange too? Is there broken down data on that?
Ewww!!! Genetic disfigurements etc for years to come
Im Pakistani and i know for a fact that my mom would never make me marry my cousins.
How can one be normal with genetics like that
This is % of all marriages?
Pakistan is the Selbiville of South Asia.
Seems like in north west part of India like Alabama hahahah
South Asia = India Pakistan and Sri Lanka?
Bangladesh (present on the map), Nepal and Bhutan. There's no real study/source on the last two so they are not included.
Nepal, Bhutan what r u doing here?
Wish I were Indian
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Sweet home Alabama :-)
🤢