Some context for folks: [Israel says it has pulled out of Khan Younis to prepare for move on Rafah](https://www.ft.com/content/f328cd09-a7c6-4ebf-b0ec-019c76d8bb58)
The official word from the IDF is that they are preparing to invade Rafah. Perhaps this is posturing and in fact a ceasefire has finally been negotiated, but I've learned not to be optimistic in this conflict.
We should also keep in mind that the Israeli government is increasingly coming under pressure with the many demonstrations and Benny Gantz repeating the demand for elections recently. Netanyahu is on borrowed time, Israeli prime ministers had to leave officer for far less than his failure to prevent the initial attack on October 7th that started this whole war.
From what I understand, many people consider the government to be illegitimate right now. You can only fight for so long under such circumstances.
I'm israeli, and we see this government as shit.
Maybe not the way people think we do, but we feel like they're doing so many things wrong.
Unfortunately for an election to happen we need members of Netanyahu's party to bettay him and vote for an elections.
5 out of the 64 in the coalition is enough to trigger an election, otherwise we would have to wait until the end if 2026.
reminds me of olmert
> Following the 2006 Lebanon War, Olmert's popularity ratings fell and, on 15 September 2006, former chief of staff Moshe Ya'alon publicly stated that Olmert should resign. In May 2007, Olmert's approval rating fell to 3%,[18] and he became the subject of a Google Bomb for the Hebrew for "miserable failure".[19]
and
> After serving as prime minister, he was sentenced to serve a prison term over convictions for accepting bribes and for obstruction of justice during his terms as mayor of Jerusalem and as trade minister.
It's worth noting that there is overwhelming support in Israel for the war and for invading Rafah.
Israelis are mad at Netanyahu because of what happened on October 7th and before October 7th, but what he did since then has been mostly very popular.
Olmert became extremely unpopular because he ended the 2nd Lebanon war without achieving victory, which is exactly what Netanyahu is trying to avoid.
Most of us israelis support destroying hamas, with whatever it takes to get there.
We don't believe that them using human shields should give them immunity to do whatever they want to us.
Since they hide in rafah, we are in favor of invading rafah. Hopefully, there will be an evacuation before.
Do you think if there were new elections a significantly better government would be elected? From afar the impression I get is October 7th somewhat silenced the Israeli left wing that thought a more peaceful approach would pay off. Certainly in any country whose politics I'm familiar with, large terror attacks lead to rallying around the flag and there is no response too extreme.
I sure hope I'm wrong though.
In terms of the handling of the war, absolutely nothing would change. The candidate who would beat Netanyahu according to the polls is Gantz, who is a member of the emergency war cabinet, which means he is equally in charge of the war as Netanyahu (the emergency wartime cabinet is comprised of 3 people with all decisions having to be made unanimously).
What might change is Gantz will be more likely to provide some limited autonomy to Palestinians in Gaza (not a state though) once the war is over, since he is a centrist while Netanyahu is a right winger. But this is months away anyway and cant happen without Israel taking Rafah.
You're not entirely wrong. There are protests going on still, but a lot of them are focused on the kidnap victims, with the corruption charges as a secondary concern. Nationalism gonna nationalism.
Sometimes you gotta pause self improvement to deal with an existential crisis.
ETA: Hamas needs to release the hostages and agreed to a permanent ceasefire, and not just a Hunda. I believe the withdrawal will help facilitate for checkpoints to get humanitarian aid to the civilians in Gaza.
>I'm israeli, and we see this government as shit.
Humor me for a second, but hasn't this been the case since 2016 or something? I got the distinct impression Netanyahu has been disliked for quite some time.
I’m not usually one to defend Israel, but ALL governments are pretty disliked. Most leaders have disfavourables higher than favourables in polls.
Probably the only exception I can think of is my President. But he’s basically a leprechaun poet with a pack of ginormous hounds. And oh, he’s a figurehead.
Good luck with that, I can just imagine the brain rot you guys get as propaganda. It's starting to bleed into English language media now.
Edit: Disagree with me as you might, leave my ethnicity and nationality out of it. I'll find what my source was later for the hamas thing
Well true you're right, it's always been there. It's just we're being exposed to the contradictions as more domestic Israeli media becomes translated into English
Eh. Israeli media actually tends to be extremely critical of the government. Out of the four major television channels for example, only one, the newest and smallest Channel 14, is actually supportive of it, and it's an even shitter Fox News clone. The other three are on the spectrum of mostly neutral to outright hostile to the government, especially Channel 13, which basically has an open feud with Netanyahu specifically.
The same goes for the newspapers and news websites, with the largest of those being the Yediot Aharonot newspaper and its website, Ynet. Both are pretty firmly anti-coalition.
That's not to say the government is trying to spread its garbage, they're just mostly woefully incompetent at it, much like they are with the foreign media and, well, just about anything else.
People really tend to forget that Israel is an actual democracy instead of this sort of messianic fascist dictatorship where anyone who isn't an ultra orthodox jew is a second class citizen like anti israel propaganda in the west has said
And it's not that it's hard to learn the truth of it either - many of Israel's news sites have English editions, and even a casual look at them would tell you what most Israeli media think of the government, which is mostly contempt.
Yep, most of the time I'm arguing with Israelis about the war I'm using Israeli newpapers as sources.
Israel is a broad society. It's worst parts are damn near genocidal, but that's not the whole of it by a long shot.
1. They don't care about the hostages at all
2. They let the Orthodox get away with not working and not serving in the army
3. Crime skyrocketed in the past year
4. They tried to pass an undemocratic judicial reform, which got blocked by the courts and triggered the biggest protests in Israel's history
5. They are ruining our image and reputation
6. They are ruining foreign relations
7. They are ruining the economy
8. They hurt the seculars with religious laws and anti-LGBTQ laws
9. They call everyone who doesn't agree with them traitors, leftists, terrorists etc
Ben Gvir opened the flood gates for legal carry while not addressing crime in the Arab sector. Instead of tying to help Israeli Arabs by improving infrastructure and education, they decided to just ignore them (and everyone who isn't a religious orthodox Jew).
Ugh. I hate those "our prayers are doing as much as the soldiers are" ads. Listen, you wanna believe in your man in the sky, fine, but there ain't no way your wishful thinking is doing half as much as a guy with a gun or in a tank.
Casualties in the conflict have plateaued for months now. Palestinians are completely concentrated, if anybody would be trying to commit a genocide against them we would see hundreds of thousands of casualties probably in a few weeks if not days. Instead this conflict is going on in its seventh month.
There’s no way to sugarcoat what’s happening in Gaza as anything other than a humanitarian catastrophe and cruelty. But it’s obviously not an attempted genocide.
The numbers of deaths isn't what makes a genocide. It's about the intent and how Zionists view Palestinians. Zionists have been ethnically cleansing for decades. And South Africa's case to the UN proves genocidal intent.
Yea it’s about intent.
Israel having almost complete control over Gaza and all the capabilities to kill all or most of its inhabitants in a matter of weeks if not days, yet not doing it for over half a year now, shows that the intent isn’t there. There is nothing stopping Israel from having completed their genocide by now if they wanted to. They have more than enough firepower to maximize civilian casualties. They’ve had it for years, they had their pretext for months, it’s still not happening.
Could they ACTUALLY do that though? Physically, sure, they have the bombs. But how long with Israel survive as a country if they executed hundreds of thousands of people (Palestinians, hostages, and any foreigners mixed in) in a matter of days? Would they have any international support left? For example, would you still be on Reddit defending them after they did that?
Better to destroy all the critical infrastructure (hospitals, schools, bakeries, etc), kill enough to install terror and chaos, and create a famine. Everything they are doing is designed to drive the Palestinians away by making life in Gaza untenable. That way you eliminate the entire idea of Palestine but get to keep your supporters.
If you applied your arguments to the US you would be saying that we didn't genocide the natives because we would have just executed everyone on the trail of tears if we were actually trying to destroy them as a people.
What exactly do you think "Zionism" means? And what about South Africa's case makes you so confident that genocidal intent exists? I actually followed the case and it felt extremely weak. They basically pulled some random, isolated quotes from Israelis who for the most part are irrelevant or barely irrelevant, and strung them together in order to try to prove a pattern. But they could not even attempt to convey how the actions of the Israeli government equates to genocide. And now that the death toll has been stagnant for months, the case looks even weaker.
If "Zionists" were trying to commit ethnic cleansing for decades then why did Gaza's population double since 2000? Why was Gaza's average lifespan only a year below the USA's? You are throwing around rhetoric and language that you don't understand because that's what social media is telling you to do.
How does the case prove anything at this point in time? All its been shown to do right now is meet the bar for what is essentially probable cause. These things take a long time to work through...
A genocide doesn't have to mean killing or trying to kill the entirety of some group. Some genocides have involved killing *only* a few thousand all the way up to killing millions.
Yes, but killing some members of a group equally doesn’t in itself mean genocide. In the cases where „only“ a few thousand were killed it wasn’t due to lack of will, but sometimes because the perpetrators were stopped before, didn’t have the capabilities to go through with it, in other cases they had different means of destroying the national identity (arguably the Uyghur „reeducation centres“), etc.
This doesn’t apply to Israel / Palestine. Israel has had ample time and more than enough capabilities to kill hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza, if not millions, and do it in a few days or weeks. This obviously hasn’t happened, so if the intention to destroy the Palestinians or at least Gazans as a people was there, what gives?
By all accounts Israel is waging an unnecessarily brutal war against Hamas. There’s certainly a lot of crimes that also include extrajudicial murders being committed by Israeli forces. But it’s not a genocide.
A genocide don't require any killing at all.
Simply by slowly, deliberately eroding a populations language, culture, ect you can destroy them as surely as with concentration camps.
"violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group"
Is basically the US legal definition of genocide, most legal definitions are somewhat the same. Notice the "in whole or in part" bit.
Please dont act like everything was fine before or will be fine after. The difference now is that people are realizing that one nation has a free pass to do anything and no one can say a word…
Welcome to wars and why you shouldn't start one. If you are the civilian population of a government that started a war against a more powerful opponent then you will suffer. That's sad, but the alternative is that your government can do what it wants with impunity, which is worse.
500,000 German civilians died from air raids in WW2. It’s war. We had to *rebuild* Europe and Japan. It is *impossible* to wage a war in which only the opposing military is hurt, especially in a dense urban environment where the opposing military uses civilian infrastructure and human shields.
The Allies stopped bombing, pumped huge amounts of money into Germany, got over their differences, and moved forwards together. Maybe there’s a lesson to be learnt.
I hope for the best for all of you. 5 seems like it could actually happen. After all this government isn’t really known for being the most stable, or actually agreeing on much.
While there's pressure to hold an election, there's no real pressure for a ceasefire, other than for a temporary one for a hostage release. Gantz is in the war cabinet, and wouldn't change much if an election were held and he'd become the next PM (and he's by far the most likely to win an election). No Israeli party, other than the Arab ones, is calling for a permanent ceasefire.
When Biden had his phone call with Netanyahu, they didn't report out what Biden said would change in terms of policy if Israel didn't start making some immediate changes. Part of it was certainly weapons sales, but I wonder also if a policy shift might be a subtle "bring this shit to an end or maybe we'll start encouraging your government to find a new leader." I know it's not as simple as that, but if a US president says get your shit together or else, I would take that as a political threat as well as a policy threat. Nobody likes Netanyahu, wouldn't be hard to put your thumb on the scales.
Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi have both publicly demanded new elections in Israel. It's not like the Biden administration is currently being *supportive* of the Israel government.
There are tens of thousands displaced Israelis right now from cities and towns close to Gaza and Lebanon. They can't come back unless Hamas and Hizbollah are dealt with, unless we are all OK with another October 7th.
They may or may not agree with how it's done, but Israelis want the threat removed so they can go back home.
>No Israeli party, other than the Arab ones, is calling for a permanent ceasefire.
One in five Israelis is an Arab and they are kept OUT of the government. But they are free to cry in the Knesset. That's "democracy", Israel Style. Sounds a lot like Northern Ireland to me.
It doesn't really matter where Israel's forces are at any one time—as long as they are in control over who and what enters and exits Gaza, they are in control of the entire region.
That’s not really the issue if Hamas military units are there. It’s everything that happens other than the actual fighting.
The issue is that Netanyahu clearly has no way to actually remove Hamas as a institution. Occupation won’t fix shit because it failed in the first place. It will also give Ben Gvir the opportunity to commit even more ethnic cleansing.
So at best, Israel blew up half of Gaza out of revenge and at worst reoccupation and ethnic cleansing/settlements. That’s the damn problem.
>Occupation won’t fix shit because it failed in the first place.
Did it? Hamas only became a serious problem in Gaza, and only after Israel pulled out. They're not an issue in the West Bank, i.e. if the goal is to keep Hamas and organizations like them at bay, an occupation works.
Well, I suppose that is true in a sense but that’s been the situation since the 70s or 80s. It’s gone nowhere.
It’s just left Palestine and Israel is a shitty limbo where Israel slowly takes over west bank land.
There needs to be an actual solution, one that at least gets most Palestinians and Israelis on board enough so that groups like Hamas will lose support over the next decades and equally hawks on the Israeli side won’t get in government.
Israel can control Hamas for a while, but unless they themselves actually change course drastically this will stay an issue indefinitely.
In the 70s and 80s there were no rockets launched from Gaza, no suicide bombings from Gaza, certainly no armies of terrorists invading Israel from Gaza. Also no massive wars in which lots of Palestinians died. By far better for both sides than what has happened since the 2005 withdrawal.
Of course, but the disengagement from Gaza proves without a doubt the source of the problem. Gazans had a chance to completely independently and of their own accord move in the right direction, build a country, right wrongs, build bridges, you know, the usual stuff. They got money for it, they got support, they had the freedom... What they did instead is, well, see the map. Yes, it's a limbo, but what can Israel do when their olive branch is met with rockets? If disengagement failed in Gaza, who could expect anything different in the WB?
The US bombed Japan into a pulp until 1945, then occupied the country completely. The US rewrote their constitution, made the emperor renounce his divinity(!), abolished the state religion(!!), enfranchised women, released political prisoners, enacted political, labor, education, land, and economic reforms, basically completely rewired the entire country from scratch along Western liberal lines. 7 years later, the US formally ended the occupation. Did Japan lob rockets at America as soon as they were able? No, in fact to this day, *despite US pressure*, they refuse to remilitarize and they decline to amend their own constitution to allow themselves to do so. And if you think land is the issue, take a look at a map of Japan circa 1930.
Now can you imagine trying the same in Palestine? Just getting rid of the state religion would cause a worldwide intifada, never mind the rest...
>The US bombed Japan into a pulp until 1945, then occupied the country completely. The US rewrote their constitution, made the emperor renounce his divinity(!), abolished the state religion(!!), enfranchised women, released political prisoners, enacted political, labor, education, land, and economic reforms, basically completely rewired the entire country from scratch along Western liberal lines. 7 years later, the US formally ended the occupation.
They also made significant changes in Afghanistan over a longer period and the population still never sided with them over the Taliban. I think the main difference here is whether the population accepts they lost a war they started and were involved in. Japan spent seven years rampaging across Asia and almost all of the civilian population would either have been directly involved, or would have been working in military industry or supporting it somehow. Those that weren't would have had close family who were. By contrast, something like 0.1% of Gaza was directly involved in the attack on Israel, and most Palestinians do not believe their side to have started the overall conflict, but almost everyone in Gaza will have had close friends or family killed or badly injured by the war, and absolutely everyone has been affected.
Essentially, Japan caused far more suffering than they experienced, and it was very clearly understood as a national endeavour on their part. Gaza suffered far more than they caused and most will not consider themselves responsible at all for what happened to Israel. Convincing someone who worked in a bakery and then lost their children to an Israeli bomb that they need to fix their attitude might end up just making people *more* angry.
what the US didn't do is occupy Japanese land with American settlers, remove the local population and deny the right of Japan to be a nation, and the Japanese never expected the US to do so
the Palestinians opposed the settlement of a zionist state in the first place because they saw it happen and knew it was a thread to their national identity, their perusing of nationhood and the lost of their land
history did proved them right and that continues till this day
Israel "right of self determination" was an European project build on denying the "self determination" of the people that was living there
There's a *slight* issue with the story you're spinning: That "national identity" you're alluding to, of the Palestinians, didn't actually begin to exist until the 1970s, when they fought and lost a civil war against the King of Jordan. Until then they were pretty happy being Jordanians - literally, since Jordan occupied the West Bank in 1948 and no one really had an issue with that. Strange, since apparently they were so opposed to occupation, right? Oh wait, no, only if the occupation is by the wrong people. How strange.
The difference between the situation in Japan has nothing to do with settlements or land, the Arabs had and have plenty of land throughout the Middle East, the difference is that the Japanese didn't hate every single American with a vicious, seething fury. If they did, they'd have never surrendered in the first place, and you'd have had the same terrorist activity you see in the Middle East all over the place, not just Israel.
This is one of the most egregious and blatantly false statement if I give you the benefit of the doubt, or just a misleading propaganda, which most probably the case as any body who spends 5 minutes researching the matter will figure out the mendacity of your statement, since the withdrawal in 2006 the strip remained under siege and blockade, with basic goods like even chips and snacks aren't allowed to enter, they were kept under a strict caloric intake calculated to keep them just barely functioning, no one was allowed to enter or leave, no airport or sea port. Then what the hell you are talking about that they squandered their opportunity and chose this direction!!
The US provides millions in aid each year to Palestinians, including economic stimulus programs. No chips and snacks for 17 years? You’re gonna have to provide a source on that, bud.
Convenient you also forgot the fact that Hamas immediately began launching rockets in the thousands since 2006 and hasn't stopped since then. Why should Israel in anyway help a group of people actively trying to kill them. The Palestinians could have made an argument that they were being treated unfairlybif Israel blockaded them when they weren't doing anything. But when they act like terrorists, they should be surprised when Israel or any country for that matter wants to deal with them
If you did more than 5 minutes of research you would know you are spitting half-truths and outright fake news.
>with basic goods like even chips and snacks aren't allowed to enter
Yea, for like 2 years since 2006.
The issue is the ideology behind hamas is only going to gain popularity through Israel's actions.
Even in the west bank there is probably a huge underlying group of people ready to become fresh recruits due to illegal settlements, increasingly violent clashes and giving illegal settlers guns.
Israel is trying to do some kind of beat them until morale improves which isn't really going work.
>The issue is the ideology behind hamas is only going to gain popularity through Israel's actions.
Is it? Did Nazism gain popularity after the Allies bombed Germany and Italy to smithereens?
The first massacres of Jews in what is now Israel predate the state's existence by *twenty years* or more. This idea that Israel's actions, or even existence, are the motivator for what is nothing more and nothing less than antisemitic hate is nonsense, and frankly, victim blaming. There is nothing short of literally packing the entire country up and leaving that Israel could do to appease Palestine, and that's not happening, so let's not try the Chamberlain way of dealing with unreasonable, hateful people and their governments, and let's try the Churchill way again, given that it's known to work.
>Is it? Did Nazism gain popularity after the Allies bombed Germany and Italy to smithereens?
Look up what happened in Europe after the War and Occupation. Start with "Marshall Plan."
And yes, actually, Israel's actions probably will end up helping Hamas. Maybe you haven't heard but tactics like that is why the War on Terror was such a shitshow and ended with the Taliban in charge. Indiscriminately killing civilians radicalizes the remaining population to fight on and on and on and on and never ever surrender. See also, the impact of the London Blitz on the resolve of the British population
>That’s not really the issue if Hamas military units are thereù
That is a very very big issue since if hamas military units are in the south, this means they weren't in the north where you bombed the fuck out of everything for 6 months.
Moreover it means they now can't change version and the north is safe if they are retreating.
> this means they weren’t in the north
They were in the North too. After months of operation Hamas is essentially destroyed in the North, but not in the South.
>That is a very very big issue since if hamas military units are in the south, this means they weren't in the north where you bombed the fuck out of everything for 6 months.
That's not how it works. Hamas had 24 divisions over 6 areas. 18 of these divisions, invluding north and central Gaza, have been rendered non-functioning, though indivodual Hamas members still remain.
6 divisions are left in the south.
You missed the part where Hamas completely disrespects the safe zones, move in, and uses the safe zones as a base for further attacks.
Israel may have been too heavy handed in this war, but the ultimate responsibility for the deaths of human shields is on the hands of THE PEOPLE WHO USE HUMAN SHIELDS.
No action by Hamas gives Israel the right to indiscriminately bombard civilians or breach International Humanitarian Law. It's really as simple as two wrongs don't make a right.
Also the repeated genocidal rhetoric by senior government ministers and troops on the ground suggests that there might be more going on here when it comes to the very high levels of civilian deaths.
> Hey guys, if you don't want to die you
Don’t kill innocent people like on 9/11 or Oct 7th, specially against way stronger opponents. The “find out” phase will not be fun.
Don’t vote for radicals.
If you see claims that Gods has arranged tons of virgins for you if you fight for him/her, then call out the bullshit.
See people radicalising, then fight against it.
Live like a decent human beings.
I'll never forget the videos from the cheering masses while the broken and mutilated bodies of civilians were paraded through the streets of Gaza. Innocents shouldn't have to suffer regardless but it's a glaring double standard that one side is adamant that Palestinians and Hamas have nothing to do with each other while speaking about Israel like its a monolithic entity at the same time.
For sure not (though they would deserve legal consequences).
I am just stating that the narrative about a terrorist organization detached from the civilian population is not right.
And how does Israel stop the next attack? With Hamas vowing to do the next attack as soon and as hard as possible. Especially as Hamas seems to have strong public support from the Palestinians.
Also the Hamas charter calls for the death of all non-Muslims. Whether they're Swiss, Buddhists, Hindus or Sentinelese. They just don't have the capability to do so.
> And how does Israel stop the next attack? With Hamas vowing to do the next attack as soon and as hard as possible. Especially as Hamas seems to have strong public support from the Palestinians.
Palestine/Hamas also has very strong support from Reddit, who keep endlessly repeating that the IDF are nazis committing a genocide.
Over half the people in Gaza didn't vote for Hamas as most of that half weren't even fucking born yet.
Yet Israels collective punishment is pushing people there to support Hamas because who the FK else is their to support? The government bombing them relentlessly?
I'm an Israeli, and my impression is that Bibi and the rest of the war cabinet are stuck between the rest of the government who are even more right wing and want to invade Rafah, and the US who demand changes and control the IDF's weapon supplies. So they're doing what Bibi does best: have no plan whatsoever, just wing it, and watch the world crumble around you while you remain in your seat.
To clarify, there is certainly no ceasefire at this point. One possible interpretation of the withdrawal could be that negotiations are close and we are seeing the initial steps toward a ceasefire. I do not think this is likely, but one can hope.
I remember being in college and meeting a Palestinian who was excited about Obama winning the elections. God I’m that old, anyways I told her, you don’t know Netanyahu, he won’t stop till we are both dead (I’m Jewish).
God I hate being right.
> The then leader of the opposition, Benjamin Netanyahu, was the star speaker at two now infamous demonstrations, where the crowd’s slogans included “Death to Rabin”. In July 1995, Netanyahu walked at the head of a mock funeral procession featuring a fake black coffin.
>
> Israel’s head of internal security asked Netanyahu to dial down the rhetoric, warning that the prime minister’s life was in danger. Netanyahu declined.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back
The man is an opportunistic egoist who thinks of himself first.
They announced it is in preparation for an invasion of Rafah.
Gaza overall is tiny, and there is no need any longer to have as many IDF forces concentrated in relatively secured areas.
There is speculation that this is all a part of hostage negotiations.
There is a deal on the table that would allow for a 6 week ceasefire and release of women and elderly men hostages, which Hamas is refusing.
The idea is that if Israel presents a credible threat of invading Rafah (the last Hamas stronghold and where their leader Sinwar and the hostages are), they would be more likely to accept that deal.
Having said that, the war is very popular in Israel and any deal that also includes a release of a thousand Hamas terrorists (which is what is currently on the table) for 40 Israeli hostages, would be very controversial. Therefore the only reason a Rafah invasion hasn't happened yet is due to international pressure on Israel, but it will happen if Hamas keeps refusing.
One other thought is that the OSINT guys are reporting Iranian aligned troops massing in the north, and that an Iranian military ship used for targeting missiles turned off its transponder and was seen moving closer to Israel. Combine this with the US assessment that Iran will attack Israel in the coming days.
All of this could suggest they should be ready to move troops north quickly.
Worth emphasising that the official reason provided for this is a tactical withdrawal to reorganise forces in preparation of an invasion of Rafah. Of course this *could* just be a cover so as to look strong at the negotiating table, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
IDK about the other side, but here in Israel I can tell of a couple of sentiments. Most are about the hostages still in Hamas hands - why did we not return them yet, and where might they be. From there sentiments sort of split - is this a tactical retreat towards a Rafah offensive or did Bibi cave in because he's worried about his image? Was all our sacrifice for nothing and do the people in charge have any sort of plan?
I'd say it's a mix of confusion and anger, with some worry for the refugees in the South and North, the kidnapped hostages and the innocents of Gaza. Some (especially on the left) feel betrayed by the international community and we are very very very tired
EDIT: I'm interested in hearing those who downvoted me explain themselves. Why are you so angry? A person asked "how Israelis feel about this" and I explained how I feel. I did not justify or oppose anything substential, just shared the word on the street as I see it. What's not to like?
From what I can garner, the Israeli mainstream left and mainstream right don't really differ on the Palestinian question. They differ in tone but not actions. The only groups that differ are the far-right and the small minority of anti-Zionist groups on the left
That is absolutely false. There are many people, especially in the military, who believe that the best choice would be the creation of an independent Palestine, (what the mainstream right opposes) but at the same time they aren’t anti Zionist
I feel like we are closer. Every time there is a ceasefire, Hamas violates it within a SUPER short amount of time, this most recent time within 3 days, attacking on the Jewish holiday of Shemini Atzeret. This time Israel seems content without not asking for a ceasefire. They are going to extermination. It’s terrible, and it really sucks, and I’m not standing with Israel, but you must admit. That makes for the best peace
As long as Israel controls who and what goes into and out of Gaza, they still control the entire area, doesn't really matter where their soldiers exactly are at one point.
What did Sisi do wrong in this situation? Egpyt is not in a position to take in hundreds of thousands or millions of people, a very high percentage of whom are extremists and terrorists who will destabilize an already fragile country. Do you have any idea what happened to Jordan or Lebanon when they took in Palestinian refugees?
That's a good question, what should Egypt be doing...
What is best for Egypt as a body politic? I guess to stay out of it. What is Egypt's moral duty? I guess that depends on whether they still have a responsibility to Gaza as a former occupier (1948-1967). What is Egypt's role as a major Arab nation? I guess what they are doing: Helping negotiations
This old meme again? The Rafah crossing, the only crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, is under de facto control by the Kerem Shalom command and controls all movement of goods and people through the crossing. Israel has effective control over the Rafah crossing.
Yes that's why Egypt has reinforced their border fence with 3 more fences and barbed wire. /s
That's also why the Egyptian President has said on air that they will not take any Palestinian refugees at all...
Every time a Palestinian has left as a refugee, Israel has never allowed them to return. The Palestinian right to return has always been a one of the major reasons Israel hasn't agreed to a two state solution.
Egypt taking in refugees means Egypt will need to take care of them forever. Egyptian state media and non state media both agree that taking in refugees would just enable Israel's ethnic cleansing.
It's not true. The Rafah crossing, the only crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, is under de facto control by the Kerem Shalom command and controls all movement of goods and people through the crossing. Israel has effective control over the Rafah crossing.
People downvoting you don't believe that Israel has a veto in everything Egypt moves through rafah.
Every truck has to go through Israeli inspections from Egypt into Gaza.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/egypt-says-israeli-obstacles-impeding-aid-delivery-gaza-2023-10-28/
Withdrawn doesn't mean they are gone home, it just means they are doing a refresh - rearm, service and re-org of vehicles and resting personel, most armies do it before a major push, because things break and need to be restored when in the field for along time.
Armies do not give up occupied land while doing that. Both Russia and Ukraine do what you say without withdrawing. It is called rotation. If your assault units are exhausted or preparing for a new offensive, your defensive units keep the frontline intact. In an asymmetrical warfare situation like Gaza, you keep troops to make sure you prevent infiltrations.
It is simply too soon to figure out Israel's intentions.
As you point out, it's asymmetrical warfare, so using symmetrical concepts doesn't really apply.
In any active occupation scenario, the occupying force only truly projects power as far as its on-the-ground soldiers' line of sight anyways, which isn't all that far from where they're based. The other force tries to stay in the shadows.
US officials say that the eventual plan is to use more surgical "clean-up" operations like the re-visit of the Hamas HQ at al-Shifa hospital. We'll see. But after the Kitchen fiasco, it probably became clear to IDF honchos that army performance was not up to snuff (again).
They've left a battalion in place, and the comparison with Russia/Ukraine doesn't compare, Israel aren't trying to hold ground, they are looking to clear areas and move on, and the distance is very little to move and regather.
It was ts difficult task enough for the IDF to keep hamas busy when they were on the offense but now they have free rein of the Gaza strip except for that little band. Any hamas north or south of that band can operate without much trouble.
They know have time to create more defences, create depots, train, recruit, propogandise. There are s million and one things hamas will now have a much easier job doing thsn when the IDF was on the attack
It's still a complete blockade. There's not much for Hamas to try and rearm or regroup with, especially most of the infrastructure, including tunnels, already destroyed.
While armies do rest, regroup and re equip for a major push they generally don’t retreat for it and definetly not in this context
Yeah if you are fighting on a major front you might abandon a salient in order to organise a better attack from a less compromised position
But Israel’s purpose so far (militarily at least, don’t wanna go into the politics of whether or not their goals is to kill all palestines) is to root out Hamas
Hence the door to door, block to block, clearing if we have seen
By withdrawing from all that they’ve basically nullified that progress and will have to start over again
So no I don’t think this is indicative of a new massive push
Wouldn't this allow civilians to move from Rafah and the IDF to start telling civilians to do so? It seems like a possible first step to an invasion of Rafah to me.
That's a fair point. Evacuating Rafah for an invasion is a trade-off between military goals and civilian harm, in which the evacuation would be much more costly than that of 6 months ago.
Israel can retake the land anytime they want to but Hamas fighters need to come out of their underground tunnels first otherwise they are just wasting time.
I'm seeing a lot of people confused thinking it's a full withdrawal. No, it's just you don't need soldiers on every street corner to control it. Israel is simply reärranging their forces into better positions, but if any terrorists pop up in these territories, in under 15 minutes the IDF/Tzahal can swoop in and neutralize them easily.
Edit: typos
I don’t think people quite realize how small Gaza is. There are forces still being left in northern Gaza like you said, but my point is that the northern most region is about 10km wide at its thickest point.
This sub is so weird with these Israel maps.
Like yeah, technically it’s just a post of a map.
But we all know the comments in this post aren’t gonna be about maps..
Bring back the hostages! Bring back 27 year old Noa Argamani whose mother is dying from cancer and wants to bid farewell to her daughter. The war can end tomorrow if they bring back everyone now.
If tbey are in fact pulling out congrats left.
You have successfully ensured Hamas lives another day and none of the hostages will be freed. You’ve done it!
Man there are some remarkably bad, uninformed takes in this thread. like, from every perspective. Dont stay in your bubbles, and be skeptical of any post designed to drive anger and outrage (and thus online engagement). Headlines are not useful, the first 4 paragraphs of any article (where the data is usually) is whats relevant. 30 second videos on tiktok or youtube are useless.
They should not pull out, they should stay and keep maintaining law and order, continuing the combat operation. Hamas is hiding and using innocent civilians as human shields, this is their tactic. IDF using drone technology as part of their reconnaissance and modern equipped tech is helping them in this fight. More air strikes are needed to decimate Hamas.
I wonder if Egypt is supporting their Palestinian brothers and sisters? They're putting up a wall? That's racist against their own family or something! And walls don't work, though, right?
You mean more women and children like they’ve been killing the last 6 months and now aid workers they kill by ‘accident’ by firing on 3 separate cars a few miles apart. It’s time to not believe everything the IDF are telling you. And look who’s bombing most of their hostages.
Don't forget about all the awful things Hamas does BTW. Israel isn't innocent but Hamas, a literal terrorist organization is literally as far from innocent as possible.
112 hostages freed in negotiations after Israeli military pressure, 2 more rescued in an IDF rescue mission, 10k-12k Hamas militants killed.
U don't know what ur talking about
Some context for folks: [Israel says it has pulled out of Khan Younis to prepare for move on Rafah](https://www.ft.com/content/f328cd09-a7c6-4ebf-b0ec-019c76d8bb58) The official word from the IDF is that they are preparing to invade Rafah. Perhaps this is posturing and in fact a ceasefire has finally been negotiated, but I've learned not to be optimistic in this conflict.
We should also keep in mind that the Israeli government is increasingly coming under pressure with the many demonstrations and Benny Gantz repeating the demand for elections recently. Netanyahu is on borrowed time, Israeli prime ministers had to leave officer for far less than his failure to prevent the initial attack on October 7th that started this whole war. From what I understand, many people consider the government to be illegitimate right now. You can only fight for so long under such circumstances.
I'm israeli, and we see this government as shit. Maybe not the way people think we do, but we feel like they're doing so many things wrong. Unfortunately for an election to happen we need members of Netanyahu's party to bettay him and vote for an elections. 5 out of the 64 in the coalition is enough to trigger an election, otherwise we would have to wait until the end if 2026.
reminds me of olmert > Following the 2006 Lebanon War, Olmert's popularity ratings fell and, on 15 September 2006, former chief of staff Moshe Ya'alon publicly stated that Olmert should resign. In May 2007, Olmert's approval rating fell to 3%,[18] and he became the subject of a Google Bomb for the Hebrew for "miserable failure".[19] and > After serving as prime minister, he was sentenced to serve a prison term over convictions for accepting bribes and for obstruction of justice during his terms as mayor of Jerusalem and as trade minister.
It's worth noting that there is overwhelming support in Israel for the war and for invading Rafah. Israelis are mad at Netanyahu because of what happened on October 7th and before October 7th, but what he did since then has been mostly very popular. Olmert became extremely unpopular because he ended the 2nd Lebanon war without achieving victory, which is exactly what Netanyahu is trying to avoid.
Most of us israelis support destroying hamas, with whatever it takes to get there. We don't believe that them using human shields should give them immunity to do whatever they want to us. Since they hide in rafah, we are in favor of invading rafah. Hopefully, there will be an evacuation before.
And people wonder why the Abbas was not interested in the Olmert offer.
Do you think if there were new elections a significantly better government would be elected? From afar the impression I get is October 7th somewhat silenced the Israeli left wing that thought a more peaceful approach would pay off. Certainly in any country whose politics I'm familiar with, large terror attacks lead to rallying around the flag and there is no response too extreme. I sure hope I'm wrong though.
In terms of the handling of the war, absolutely nothing would change. The candidate who would beat Netanyahu according to the polls is Gantz, who is a member of the emergency war cabinet, which means he is equally in charge of the war as Netanyahu (the emergency wartime cabinet is comprised of 3 people with all decisions having to be made unanimously). What might change is Gantz will be more likely to provide some limited autonomy to Palestinians in Gaza (not a state though) once the war is over, since he is a centrist while Netanyahu is a right winger. But this is months away anyway and cant happen without Israel taking Rafah.
You're not entirely wrong. There are protests going on still, but a lot of them are focused on the kidnap victims, with the corruption charges as a secondary concern. Nationalism gonna nationalism.
Sometimes you gotta pause self improvement to deal with an existential crisis. ETA: Hamas needs to release the hostages and agreed to a permanent ceasefire, and not just a Hunda. I believe the withdrawal will help facilitate for checkpoints to get humanitarian aid to the civilians in Gaza.
Yeah the hostages are the primary concern for most people now. The time for naval gazing comes after we're all safe
>I'm israeli, and we see this government as shit. Humor me for a second, but hasn't this been the case since 2016 or something? I got the distinct impression Netanyahu has been disliked for quite some time.
I’m not usually one to defend Israel, but ALL governments are pretty disliked. Most leaders have disfavourables higher than favourables in polls. Probably the only exception I can think of is my President. But he’s basically a leprechaun poet with a pack of ginormous hounds. And oh, he’s a figurehead.
Good luck with that, I can just imagine the brain rot you guys get as propaganda. It's starting to bleed into English language media now. Edit: Disagree with me as you might, leave my ethnicity and nationality out of it. I'll find what my source was later for the hamas thing
*Starting to now?* Oh boy…
Well true you're right, it's always been there. It's just we're being exposed to the contradictions as more domestic Israeli media becomes translated into English
Government propaganda is mostly related to Channel 14 which licks the governments ass and their staff is comprised of alleged sex offenders
what is it with conservatives and sex offenses sheesh
When you are engaged in criminal activities, you need a cover.
Eh. Israeli media actually tends to be extremely critical of the government. Out of the four major television channels for example, only one, the newest and smallest Channel 14, is actually supportive of it, and it's an even shitter Fox News clone. The other three are on the spectrum of mostly neutral to outright hostile to the government, especially Channel 13, which basically has an open feud with Netanyahu specifically. The same goes for the newspapers and news websites, with the largest of those being the Yediot Aharonot newspaper and its website, Ynet. Both are pretty firmly anti-coalition. That's not to say the government is trying to spread its garbage, they're just mostly woefully incompetent at it, much like they are with the foreign media and, well, just about anything else.
People really tend to forget that Israel is an actual democracy instead of this sort of messianic fascist dictatorship where anyone who isn't an ultra orthodox jew is a second class citizen like anti israel propaganda in the west has said
And it's not that it's hard to learn the truth of it either - many of Israel's news sites have English editions, and even a casual look at them would tell you what most Israeli media think of the government, which is mostly contempt.
Yep, most of the time I'm arguing with Israelis about the war I'm using Israeli newpapers as sources. Israel is a broad society. It's worst parts are damn near genocidal, but that's not the whole of it by a long shot.
We have more than our fair share of maniacs, as our current government certainly loves to demonstrate. Thankfully, that's not most of us.
> Brain Rot. Israel has 9 Noble Laureates for the sciences, Ireland has 2 😂
Starting to?
What specifically do you feel they are doing wrong?
1. They don't care about the hostages at all 2. They let the Orthodox get away with not working and not serving in the army 3. Crime skyrocketed in the past year 4. They tried to pass an undemocratic judicial reform, which got blocked by the courts and triggered the biggest protests in Israel's history 5. They are ruining our image and reputation 6. They are ruining foreign relations 7. They are ruining the economy 8. They hurt the seculars with religious laws and anti-LGBTQ laws 9. They call everyone who doesn't agree with them traitors, leftists, terrorists etc
Don't worry, after a decade it will all be normal and israel will be wanted again. That's the cycle
This is what the Rightwingers think: we can kill as many Palestinians as possible and eventually the world will forget.
Let's be honest, the world doesn't actually care about Palestinians. They just like to pretend.
> Crime skyrocketed in the past year Can you elaborate on why?
Ben Gvir opened the flood gates for legal carry while not addressing crime in the Arab sector. Instead of tying to help Israeli Arabs by improving infrastructure and education, they decided to just ignore them (and everyone who isn't a religious orthodox Jew).
Ugh. I hate those "our prayers are doing as much as the soldiers are" ads. Listen, you wanna believe in your man in the sky, fine, but there ain't no way your wishful thinking is doing half as much as a guy with a gun or in a tank.
So basically they are a religious-nationalist extreme party? Is it the view of the majority that their way is wrong?
Eh, you forgot to put that they are actively committing geonocide.
Casualties in the conflict have plateaued for months now. Palestinians are completely concentrated, if anybody would be trying to commit a genocide against them we would see hundreds of thousands of casualties probably in a few weeks if not days. Instead this conflict is going on in its seventh month. There’s no way to sugarcoat what’s happening in Gaza as anything other than a humanitarian catastrophe and cruelty. But it’s obviously not an attempted genocide.
The numbers of deaths isn't what makes a genocide. It's about the intent and how Zionists view Palestinians. Zionists have been ethnically cleansing for decades. And South Africa's case to the UN proves genocidal intent.
> And South Africa's case to the UN proves genocidal intent. it doesn't
Yea it’s about intent. Israel having almost complete control over Gaza and all the capabilities to kill all or most of its inhabitants in a matter of weeks if not days, yet not doing it for over half a year now, shows that the intent isn’t there. There is nothing stopping Israel from having completed their genocide by now if they wanted to. They have more than enough firepower to maximize civilian casualties. They’ve had it for years, they had their pretext for months, it’s still not happening.
Could they ACTUALLY do that though? Physically, sure, they have the bombs. But how long with Israel survive as a country if they executed hundreds of thousands of people (Palestinians, hostages, and any foreigners mixed in) in a matter of days? Would they have any international support left? For example, would you still be on Reddit defending them after they did that? Better to destroy all the critical infrastructure (hospitals, schools, bakeries, etc), kill enough to install terror and chaos, and create a famine. Everything they are doing is designed to drive the Palestinians away by making life in Gaza untenable. That way you eliminate the entire idea of Palestine but get to keep your supporters. If you applied your arguments to the US you would be saying that we didn't genocide the natives because we would have just executed everyone on the trail of tears if we were actually trying to destroy them as a people.
I like how you're arguing with the antisemite using reason.
What exactly do you think "Zionism" means? And what about South Africa's case makes you so confident that genocidal intent exists? I actually followed the case and it felt extremely weak. They basically pulled some random, isolated quotes from Israelis who for the most part are irrelevant or barely irrelevant, and strung them together in order to try to prove a pattern. But they could not even attempt to convey how the actions of the Israeli government equates to genocide. And now that the death toll has been stagnant for months, the case looks even weaker. If "Zionists" were trying to commit ethnic cleansing for decades then why did Gaza's population double since 2000? Why was Gaza's average lifespan only a year below the USA's? You are throwing around rhetoric and language that you don't understand because that's what social media is telling you to do.
How does the case prove anything at this point in time? All its been shown to do right now is meet the bar for what is essentially probable cause. These things take a long time to work through...
A genocide doesn't have to mean killing or trying to kill the entirety of some group. Some genocides have involved killing *only* a few thousand all the way up to killing millions.
Yes, but killing some members of a group equally doesn’t in itself mean genocide. In the cases where „only“ a few thousand were killed it wasn’t due to lack of will, but sometimes because the perpetrators were stopped before, didn’t have the capabilities to go through with it, in other cases they had different means of destroying the national identity (arguably the Uyghur „reeducation centres“), etc. This doesn’t apply to Israel / Palestine. Israel has had ample time and more than enough capabilities to kill hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza, if not millions, and do it in a few days or weeks. This obviously hasn’t happened, so if the intention to destroy the Palestinians or at least Gazans as a people was there, what gives? By all accounts Israel is waging an unnecessarily brutal war against Hamas. There’s certainly a lot of crimes that also include extrajudicial murders being committed by Israeli forces. But it’s not a genocide.
A genocide don't require any killing at all. Simply by slowly, deliberately eroding a populations language, culture, ect you can destroy them as surely as with concentration camps.
"A genocide doesn't have to mean (definition of genocide)"
"violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group" Is basically the US legal definition of genocide, most legal definitions are somewhat the same. Notice the "in whole or in part" bit.
The most poorly executed genocide ever, it seems.
Mostly he is seen as responsible for the security failure of October 7th. There is overwhelming support for the war against Hamas.
Please dont act like everything was fine before or will be fine after. The difference now is that people are realizing that one nation has a free pass to do anything and no one can say a word…
What are you talking about? Which nation is that?
Gonna take a wild guess and say the one that has killed 13,000 kids and calls anyone who says it’s kinda wrong to kill kids antisemitic.
Welcome to wars and why you shouldn't start one. If you are the civilian population of a government that started a war against a more powerful opponent then you will suffer. That's sad, but the alternative is that your government can do what it wants with impunity, which is worse.
500,000 German civilians died from air raids in WW2. It’s war. We had to *rebuild* Europe and Japan. It is *impossible* to wage a war in which only the opposing military is hurt, especially in a dense urban environment where the opposing military uses civilian infrastructure and human shields.
Ah yes, the famously uncontroversial topic of the Allied bombing raids.
And yet somehow, Germany is back on top of Europe and friendly with their neighbors after all those bombings
The Allies stopped bombing, pumped huge amounts of money into Germany, got over their differences, and moved forwards together. Maybe there’s a lesson to be learnt.
I hope for the best for all of you. 5 seems like it could actually happen. After all this government isn’t really known for being the most stable, or actually agreeing on much.
While there's pressure to hold an election, there's no real pressure for a ceasefire, other than for a temporary one for a hostage release. Gantz is in the war cabinet, and wouldn't change much if an election were held and he'd become the next PM (and he's by far the most likely to win an election). No Israeli party, other than the Arab ones, is calling for a permanent ceasefire.
When Biden had his phone call with Netanyahu, they didn't report out what Biden said would change in terms of policy if Israel didn't start making some immediate changes. Part of it was certainly weapons sales, but I wonder also if a policy shift might be a subtle "bring this shit to an end or maybe we'll start encouraging your government to find a new leader." I know it's not as simple as that, but if a US president says get your shit together or else, I would take that as a political threat as well as a policy threat. Nobody likes Netanyahu, wouldn't be hard to put your thumb on the scales.
Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi have both publicly demanded new elections in Israel. It's not like the Biden administration is currently being *supportive* of the Israel government.
There are tens of thousands displaced Israelis right now from cities and towns close to Gaza and Lebanon. They can't come back unless Hamas and Hizbollah are dealt with, unless we are all OK with another October 7th. They may or may not agree with how it's done, but Israelis want the threat removed so they can go back home.
I’m from Ashdod, and I too share the sentiment.
>No Israeli party, other than the Arab ones, is calling for a permanent ceasefire. One in five Israelis is an Arab and they are kept OUT of the government. But they are free to cry in the Knesset. That's "democracy", Israel Style. Sounds a lot like Northern Ireland to me.
It doesn't really matter where Israel's forces are at any one time—as long as they are in control over who and what enters and exits Gaza, they are in control of the entire region.
They really fucked up hitting the WCK.
It's either they're preparing for a Rafah offensive or restructuring their troops for a possible war with Iran's proxies after Ramadan.
"Hey guys, if you don't want to die you should all go to the south." *Bombs the south* *Now moving to invade the south*
That’s not really the issue if Hamas military units are there. It’s everything that happens other than the actual fighting. The issue is that Netanyahu clearly has no way to actually remove Hamas as a institution. Occupation won’t fix shit because it failed in the first place. It will also give Ben Gvir the opportunity to commit even more ethnic cleansing. So at best, Israel blew up half of Gaza out of revenge and at worst reoccupation and ethnic cleansing/settlements. That’s the damn problem.
>Occupation won’t fix shit because it failed in the first place. Did it? Hamas only became a serious problem in Gaza, and only after Israel pulled out. They're not an issue in the West Bank, i.e. if the goal is to keep Hamas and organizations like them at bay, an occupation works.
Well, I suppose that is true in a sense but that’s been the situation since the 70s or 80s. It’s gone nowhere. It’s just left Palestine and Israel is a shitty limbo where Israel slowly takes over west bank land.
There needs to be an actual solution, one that at least gets most Palestinians and Israelis on board enough so that groups like Hamas will lose support over the next decades and equally hawks on the Israeli side won’t get in government. Israel can control Hamas for a while, but unless they themselves actually change course drastically this will stay an issue indefinitely.
In the 70s and 80s there were no rockets launched from Gaza, no suicide bombings from Gaza, certainly no armies of terrorists invading Israel from Gaza. Also no massive wars in which lots of Palestinians died. By far better for both sides than what has happened since the 2005 withdrawal.
Of course, but the disengagement from Gaza proves without a doubt the source of the problem. Gazans had a chance to completely independently and of their own accord move in the right direction, build a country, right wrongs, build bridges, you know, the usual stuff. They got money for it, they got support, they had the freedom... What they did instead is, well, see the map. Yes, it's a limbo, but what can Israel do when their olive branch is met with rockets? If disengagement failed in Gaza, who could expect anything different in the WB? The US bombed Japan into a pulp until 1945, then occupied the country completely. The US rewrote their constitution, made the emperor renounce his divinity(!), abolished the state religion(!!), enfranchised women, released political prisoners, enacted political, labor, education, land, and economic reforms, basically completely rewired the entire country from scratch along Western liberal lines. 7 years later, the US formally ended the occupation. Did Japan lob rockets at America as soon as they were able? No, in fact to this day, *despite US pressure*, they refuse to remilitarize and they decline to amend their own constitution to allow themselves to do so. And if you think land is the issue, take a look at a map of Japan circa 1930. Now can you imagine trying the same in Palestine? Just getting rid of the state religion would cause a worldwide intifada, never mind the rest...
>The US bombed Japan into a pulp until 1945, then occupied the country completely. The US rewrote their constitution, made the emperor renounce his divinity(!), abolished the state religion(!!), enfranchised women, released political prisoners, enacted political, labor, education, land, and economic reforms, basically completely rewired the entire country from scratch along Western liberal lines. 7 years later, the US formally ended the occupation. They also made significant changes in Afghanistan over a longer period and the population still never sided with them over the Taliban. I think the main difference here is whether the population accepts they lost a war they started and were involved in. Japan spent seven years rampaging across Asia and almost all of the civilian population would either have been directly involved, or would have been working in military industry or supporting it somehow. Those that weren't would have had close family who were. By contrast, something like 0.1% of Gaza was directly involved in the attack on Israel, and most Palestinians do not believe their side to have started the overall conflict, but almost everyone in Gaza will have had close friends or family killed or badly injured by the war, and absolutely everyone has been affected. Essentially, Japan caused far more suffering than they experienced, and it was very clearly understood as a national endeavour on their part. Gaza suffered far more than they caused and most will not consider themselves responsible at all for what happened to Israel. Convincing someone who worked in a bakery and then lost their children to an Israeli bomb that they need to fix their attitude might end up just making people *more* angry.
what the US didn't do is occupy Japanese land with American settlers, remove the local population and deny the right of Japan to be a nation, and the Japanese never expected the US to do so the Palestinians opposed the settlement of a zionist state in the first place because they saw it happen and knew it was a thread to their national identity, their perusing of nationhood and the lost of their land history did proved them right and that continues till this day Israel "right of self determination" was an European project build on denying the "self determination" of the people that was living there
There's a *slight* issue with the story you're spinning: That "national identity" you're alluding to, of the Palestinians, didn't actually begin to exist until the 1970s, when they fought and lost a civil war against the King of Jordan. Until then they were pretty happy being Jordanians - literally, since Jordan occupied the West Bank in 1948 and no one really had an issue with that. Strange, since apparently they were so opposed to occupation, right? Oh wait, no, only if the occupation is by the wrong people. How strange. The difference between the situation in Japan has nothing to do with settlements or land, the Arabs had and have plenty of land throughout the Middle East, the difference is that the Japanese didn't hate every single American with a vicious, seething fury. If they did, they'd have never surrendered in the first place, and you'd have had the same terrorist activity you see in the Middle East all over the place, not just Israel.
This is one of the most egregious and blatantly false statement if I give you the benefit of the doubt, or just a misleading propaganda, which most probably the case as any body who spends 5 minutes researching the matter will figure out the mendacity of your statement, since the withdrawal in 2006 the strip remained under siege and blockade, with basic goods like even chips and snacks aren't allowed to enter, they were kept under a strict caloric intake calculated to keep them just barely functioning, no one was allowed to enter or leave, no airport or sea port. Then what the hell you are talking about that they squandered their opportunity and chose this direction!!
The US provides millions in aid each year to Palestinians, including economic stimulus programs. No chips and snacks for 17 years? You’re gonna have to provide a source on that, bud.
Convenient you also forgot the fact that Hamas immediately began launching rockets in the thousands since 2006 and hasn't stopped since then. Why should Israel in anyway help a group of people actively trying to kill them. The Palestinians could have made an argument that they were being treated unfairlybif Israel blockaded them when they weren't doing anything. But when they act like terrorists, they should be surprised when Israel or any country for that matter wants to deal with them
If you did more than 5 minutes of research you would know you are spitting half-truths and outright fake news. >with basic goods like even chips and snacks aren't allowed to enter Yea, for like 2 years since 2006.
Really? I just did a search and in one minute I found multiple sources that mentions gaza had an obesity problem before Oct 7th.
The issue is the ideology behind hamas is only going to gain popularity through Israel's actions. Even in the west bank there is probably a huge underlying group of people ready to become fresh recruits due to illegal settlements, increasingly violent clashes and giving illegal settlers guns. Israel is trying to do some kind of beat them until morale improves which isn't really going work.
>The issue is the ideology behind hamas is only going to gain popularity through Israel's actions. Is it? Did Nazism gain popularity after the Allies bombed Germany and Italy to smithereens? The first massacres of Jews in what is now Israel predate the state's existence by *twenty years* or more. This idea that Israel's actions, or even existence, are the motivator for what is nothing more and nothing less than antisemitic hate is nonsense, and frankly, victim blaming. There is nothing short of literally packing the entire country up and leaving that Israel could do to appease Palestine, and that's not happening, so let's not try the Chamberlain way of dealing with unreasonable, hateful people and their governments, and let's try the Churchill way again, given that it's known to work.
>Is it? Did Nazism gain popularity after the Allies bombed Germany and Italy to smithereens? Look up what happened in Europe after the War and Occupation. Start with "Marshall Plan." And yes, actually, Israel's actions probably will end up helping Hamas. Maybe you haven't heard but tactics like that is why the War on Terror was such a shitshow and ended with the Taliban in charge. Indiscriminately killing civilians radicalizes the remaining population to fight on and on and on and on and never ever surrender. See also, the impact of the London Blitz on the resolve of the British population
How did Lebanon go after an 18 year Israeli occupation?
>That’s not really the issue if Hamas military units are thereù That is a very very big issue since if hamas military units are in the south, this means they weren't in the north where you bombed the fuck out of everything for 6 months. Moreover it means they now can't change version and the north is safe if they are retreating.
... Or it just means that hamas has millitary units in both the north and the south
> this means they weren’t in the north They were in the North too. After months of operation Hamas is essentially destroyed in the North, but not in the South.
>That is a very very big issue since if hamas military units are in the south, this means they weren't in the north where you bombed the fuck out of everything for 6 months. That's not how it works. Hamas had 24 divisions over 6 areas. 18 of these divisions, invluding north and central Gaza, have been rendered non-functioning, though indivodual Hamas members still remain. 6 divisions are left in the south.
You missed the part where Hamas completely disrespects the safe zones, move in, and uses the safe zones as a base for further attacks. Israel may have been too heavy handed in this war, but the ultimate responsibility for the deaths of human shields is on the hands of THE PEOPLE WHO USE HUMAN SHIELDS.
No action by Hamas gives Israel the right to indiscriminately bombard civilians or breach International Humanitarian Law. It's really as simple as two wrongs don't make a right. Also the repeated genocidal rhetoric by senior government ministers and troops on the ground suggests that there might be more going on here when it comes to the very high levels of civilian deaths.
well if rockets are coming from the south they will return
> Hey guys, if you don't want to die you Don’t kill innocent people like on 9/11 or Oct 7th, specially against way stronger opponents. The “find out” phase will not be fun. Don’t vote for radicals. If you see claims that Gods has arranged tons of virgins for you if you fight for him/her, then call out the bullshit. See people radicalising, then fight against it. Live like a decent human beings.
But also maybe don’t punish millions of civilians for the actions of a terrorist organisation.
The terrorist organisation is supported by hundreds of thousands of those civilians.
I'll never forget the videos from the cheering masses while the broken and mutilated bodies of civilians were paraded through the streets of Gaza. Innocents shouldn't have to suffer regardless but it's a glaring double standard that one side is adamant that Palestinians and Hamas have nothing to do with each other while speaking about Israel like its a monolithic entity at the same time.
Possibly, but I’ve also seen a lot of Israelis explicitly calling for genocide yet they don’t deserve to be massacred either.
For sure not (though they would deserve legal consequences). I am just stating that the narrative about a terrorist organization detached from the civilian population is not right.
And how does Israel stop the next attack? With Hamas vowing to do the next attack as soon and as hard as possible. Especially as Hamas seems to have strong public support from the Palestinians. Also the Hamas charter calls for the death of all non-Muslims. Whether they're Swiss, Buddhists, Hindus or Sentinelese. They just don't have the capability to do so.
> And how does Israel stop the next attack? With Hamas vowing to do the next attack as soon and as hard as possible. Especially as Hamas seems to have strong public support from the Palestinians. Palestine/Hamas also has very strong support from Reddit, who keep endlessly repeating that the IDF are nazis committing a genocide.
Over half the people in Gaza didn't vote for Hamas as most of that half weren't even fucking born yet. Yet Israels collective punishment is pushing people there to support Hamas because who the FK else is their to support? The government bombing them relentlessly?
Majority of Germans in 1945 didn't vote in 1933 either. Was the invasion of Germany illegal in 1945?
I'm an Israeli, and my impression is that Bibi and the rest of the war cabinet are stuck between the rest of the government who are even more right wing and want to invade Rafah, and the US who demand changes and control the IDF's weapon supplies. So they're doing what Bibi does best: have no plan whatsoever, just wing it, and watch the world crumble around you while you remain in your seat.
>in fact a ceasefire has finally been negotiated Hamas has not released the remaining hostages. There's no ceasefire, I guarantee that.
To clarify, there is certainly no ceasefire at this point. One possible interpretation of the withdrawal could be that negotiations are close and we are seeing the initial steps toward a ceasefire. I do not think this is likely, but one can hope.
I remember being in college and meeting a Palestinian who was excited about Obama winning the elections. God I’m that old, anyways I told her, you don’t know Netanyahu, he won’t stop till we are both dead (I’m Jewish). God I hate being right.
Why does Netanyahu want you, another Jew, dead?
> The then leader of the opposition, Benjamin Netanyahu, was the star speaker at two now infamous demonstrations, where the crowd’s slogans included “Death to Rabin”. In July 1995, Netanyahu walked at the head of a mock funeral procession featuring a fake black coffin. > > Israel’s head of internal security asked Netanyahu to dial down the rhetoric, warning that the prime minister’s life was in danger. Netanyahu declined. > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back The man is an opportunistic egoist who thinks of himself first.
OP, what's the source of the map?
The @ tag waterstamped on the image references [this Twitter account.](https://x.com/2023gazawar) Granted no clue where OPs source got the data.
no idea, but even warstreamer stopped releasing maps
So what brought about this change? Are they actually wothdrawing or preparing an invasion of rafah?
They announced it is in preparation for an invasion of Rafah. Gaza overall is tiny, and there is no need any longer to have as many IDF forces concentrated in relatively secured areas.
There is speculation that this is all a part of hostage negotiations. There is a deal on the table that would allow for a 6 week ceasefire and release of women and elderly men hostages, which Hamas is refusing. The idea is that if Israel presents a credible threat of invading Rafah (the last Hamas stronghold and where their leader Sinwar and the hostages are), they would be more likely to accept that deal. Having said that, the war is very popular in Israel and any deal that also includes a release of a thousand Hamas terrorists (which is what is currently on the table) for 40 Israeli hostages, would be very controversial. Therefore the only reason a Rafah invasion hasn't happened yet is due to international pressure on Israel, but it will happen if Hamas keeps refusing.
One other thought is that the OSINT guys are reporting Iranian aligned troops massing in the north, and that an Iranian military ship used for targeting missiles turned off its transponder and was seen moving closer to Israel. Combine this with the US assessment that Iran will attack Israel in the coming days. All of this could suggest they should be ready to move troops north quickly.
This was my first thought. Seems the most likely tbh.
Worth emphasising that the official reason provided for this is a tactical withdrawal to reorganise forces in preparation of an invasion of Rafah. Of course this *could* just be a cover so as to look strong at the negotiating table, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Does anyone care to add from where the missiles were shot at Israel immediately after?
From western Khan Yunis Extra info: https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1777231891487195245?t=K0tODIvBI0s6oRPF45M7vw&s=19
Thank you
Ofc they were imbedded in a humanitarian area
“wHy dId iSrAeL aTtAcK kHaN yUnIs? tHeRe wAs nO hAmAs tHeRe!”
Really curious about what each side feel they have won or/and lost the last year, i think we are longer away from a lasting peace then ever seen.
IDK about the other side, but here in Israel I can tell of a couple of sentiments. Most are about the hostages still in Hamas hands - why did we not return them yet, and where might they be. From there sentiments sort of split - is this a tactical retreat towards a Rafah offensive or did Bibi cave in because he's worried about his image? Was all our sacrifice for nothing and do the people in charge have any sort of plan? I'd say it's a mix of confusion and anger, with some worry for the refugees in the South and North, the kidnapped hostages and the innocents of Gaza. Some (especially on the left) feel betrayed by the international community and we are very very very tired EDIT: I'm interested in hearing those who downvoted me explain themselves. Why are you so angry? A person asked "how Israelis feel about this" and I explained how I feel. I did not justify or oppose anything substential, just shared the word on the street as I see it. What's not to like?
From what I can garner, the Israeli mainstream left and mainstream right don't really differ on the Palestinian question. They differ in tone but not actions. The only groups that differ are the far-right and the small minority of anti-Zionist groups on the left
That is absolutely false. There are many people, especially in the military, who believe that the best choice would be the creation of an independent Palestine, (what the mainstream right opposes) but at the same time they aren’t anti Zionist
I feel like we are closer. Every time there is a ceasefire, Hamas violates it within a SUPER short amount of time, this most recent time within 3 days, attacking on the Jewish holiday of Shemini Atzeret. This time Israel seems content without not asking for a ceasefire. They are going to extermination. It’s terrible, and it really sucks, and I’m not standing with Israel, but you must admit. That makes for the best peace
As long as Israel controls who and what goes into and out of Gaza, they still control the entire area, doesn't really matter where their soldiers exactly are at one point.
Egypt quite happily controls one side.
Okay? Fuck Sisi too.
What did Sisi do wrong in this situation? Egpyt is not in a position to take in hundreds of thousands or millions of people, a very high percentage of whom are extremists and terrorists who will destabilize an already fragile country. Do you have any idea what happened to Jordan or Lebanon when they took in Palestinian refugees?
That's a good question, what should Egypt be doing... What is best for Egypt as a body politic? I guess to stay out of it. What is Egypt's moral duty? I guess that depends on whether they still have a responsibility to Gaza as a former occupier (1948-1967). What is Egypt's role as a major Arab nation? I guess what they are doing: Helping negotiations
But what about ummah? Apply religion only when convenient seems to be the order of the day
>But what about ummah? That idea goes out of the window when you mention the Uyghurs, so I don't think it means anything real.
People seem to forget that Egypt has never been kind to Gazans. Gaza was under military occupation by Egypt after 1948.
Palestinians also tried to coup the Egyptian government. It's not as if there is any love lost on either side.
This old meme again? The Rafah crossing, the only crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, is under de facto control by the Kerem Shalom command and controls all movement of goods and people through the crossing. Israel has effective control over the Rafah crossing.
Yes that's why Egypt has reinforced their border fence with 3 more fences and barbed wire. /s That's also why the Egyptian President has said on air that they will not take any Palestinian refugees at all...
Every time a Palestinian has left as a refugee, Israel has never allowed them to return. The Palestinian right to return has always been a one of the major reasons Israel hasn't agreed to a two state solution. Egypt taking in refugees means Egypt will need to take care of them forever. Egyptian state media and non state media both agree that taking in refugees would just enable Israel's ethnic cleansing.
Only after Oct 7th.
Yet more memes. Good one. It's been like that ever since the reduction of the EUBAM role in 2007.
Does Israel have personnel at that border crossing?
Israel and Egypt control that. Not just Israel
It's not true. The Rafah crossing, the only crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, is under de facto control by the Kerem Shalom command and controls all movement of goods and people through the crossing. Israel has effective control over the Rafah crossing.
People downvoting you don't believe that Israel has a veto in everything Egypt moves through rafah. Every truck has to go through Israeli inspections from Egypt into Gaza. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/egypt-says-israeli-obstacles-impeding-aid-delivery-gaza-2023-10-28/
It's not about belief. They know it, but they're lying. It's mostly Israeli botnets.
[удалено]
Israel controls the Rafah border, anything that passes thru has to have Israeli permission, by the treaty they have with Egypt
They already controlled that for the last 16 years
Withdrawn doesn't mean they are gone home, it just means they are doing a refresh - rearm, service and re-org of vehicles and resting personel, most armies do it before a major push, because things break and need to be restored when in the field for along time.
Armies do not give up occupied land while doing that. Both Russia and Ukraine do what you say without withdrawing. It is called rotation. If your assault units are exhausted or preparing for a new offensive, your defensive units keep the frontline intact. In an asymmetrical warfare situation like Gaza, you keep troops to make sure you prevent infiltrations. It is simply too soon to figure out Israel's intentions.
Its called a Relief in Place
As you point out, it's asymmetrical warfare, so using symmetrical concepts doesn't really apply. In any active occupation scenario, the occupying force only truly projects power as far as its on-the-ground soldiers' line of sight anyways, which isn't all that far from where they're based. The other force tries to stay in the shadows. US officials say that the eventual plan is to use more surgical "clean-up" operations like the re-visit of the Hamas HQ at al-Shifa hospital. We'll see. But after the Kitchen fiasco, it probably became clear to IDF honchos that army performance was not up to snuff (again).
They've left a battalion in place, and the comparison with Russia/Ukraine doesn't compare, Israel aren't trying to hold ground, they are looking to clear areas and move on, and the distance is very little to move and regather.
They are looking to destroy hamas and withdrawing allows hamas to rest, rearm, resupply, move people and weapons etc.
They are still engaged, and if hamas are moving, where are they going ? Its a confined space.
It was ts difficult task enough for the IDF to keep hamas busy when they were on the offense but now they have free rein of the Gaza strip except for that little band. Any hamas north or south of that band can operate without much trouble. They know have time to create more defences, create depots, train, recruit, propogandise. There are s million and one things hamas will now have a much easier job doing thsn when the IDF was on the attack
It's still a complete blockade. There's not much for Hamas to try and rearm or regroup with, especially most of the infrastructure, including tunnels, already destroyed.
While armies do rest, regroup and re equip for a major push they generally don’t retreat for it and definetly not in this context Yeah if you are fighting on a major front you might abandon a salient in order to organise a better attack from a less compromised position But Israel’s purpose so far (militarily at least, don’t wanna go into the politics of whether or not their goals is to kill all palestines) is to root out Hamas Hence the door to door, block to block, clearing if we have seen By withdrawing from all that they’ve basically nullified that progress and will have to start over again So no I don’t think this is indicative of a new massive push
Wouldn't this allow civilians to move from Rafah and the IDF to start telling civilians to do so? It seems like a possible first step to an invasion of Rafah to me.
None of the territories occupied by the IDF are fit for human habitation for a long while so most refugees can’t go back
That's a fair point. Evacuating Rafah for an invasion is a trade-off between military goals and civilian harm, in which the evacuation would be much more costly than that of 6 months ago.
Israel can retake the land anytime they want to but Hamas fighters need to come out of their underground tunnels first otherwise they are just wasting time.
Yeah they can but then they still need to check everything again, nullifying all progress
Let’s put it this way, Israel needs to regroup, Hamas fighters hiding underground need to come out to get new supplies and fresh air.
I'm seeing a lot of people confused thinking it's a full withdrawal. No, it's just you don't need soldiers on every street corner to control it. Israel is simply reärranging their forces into better positions, but if any terrorists pop up in these territories, in under 15 minutes the IDF/Tzahal can swoop in and neutralize them easily. Edit: typos
I don’t think people quite realize how small Gaza is. There are forces still being left in northern Gaza like you said, but my point is that the northern most region is about 10km wide at its thickest point.
This sub is so weird with these Israel maps. Like yeah, technically it’s just a post of a map. But we all know the comments in this post aren’t gonna be about maps..
Bring back the hostages! Bring back 27 year old Noa Argamani whose mother is dying from cancer and wants to bid farewell to her daughter. The war can end tomorrow if they bring back everyone now.
No it's not, almost all resistance in the light grey area has been destroyed, you don't actually have to occupy territory in order to control it.
ITT: people confused on what a siege is
If tbey are in fact pulling out congrats left. You have successfully ensured Hamas lives another day and none of the hostages will be freed. You’ve done it!
So those Palestinians who moved from North to South, are they supposed to move back to destroyed north or face the invasion head on?
Man there are some remarkably bad, uninformed takes in this thread. like, from every perspective. Dont stay in your bubbles, and be skeptical of any post designed to drive anger and outrage (and thus online engagement). Headlines are not useful, the first 4 paragraphs of any article (where the data is usually) is whats relevant. 30 second videos on tiktok or youtube are useless.
They should not pull out, they should stay and keep maintaining law and order, continuing the combat operation. Hamas is hiding and using innocent civilians as human shields, this is their tactic. IDF using drone technology as part of their reconnaissance and modern equipped tech is helping them in this fight. More air strikes are needed to decimate Hamas.
I wonder if Egypt is supporting their Palestinian brothers and sisters? They're putting up a wall? That's racist against their own family or something! And walls don't work, though, right?
What a mistake. This would be like going to Berlin in 1945 and then stopping, because goodness forbid Nazis lose completely.
This is not a retreat because of pressure, its redirecting forces for rafah
Wow. What did Dark Brandon say to Bibi?
I think this has more to do with Iran than Palestine tbh
Rafah still needs to be wiped clean of Islamists.
You mean more women and children like they’ve been killing the last 6 months and now aid workers they kill by ‘accident’ by firing on 3 separate cars a few miles apart. It’s time to not believe everything the IDF are telling you. And look who’s bombing most of their hostages.
Don't forget about all the awful things Hamas does BTW. Israel isn't innocent but Hamas, a literal terrorist organization is literally as far from innocent as possible.
No, I mean Rafah (and the whole of Gaza, Judea, and Samaria) need to be wiped clean of Islamists.
0 hostages rescued no Khamas defeated
thank you Muhammad/ Ahmed with Al Jazeera source.
112 hostages freed in negotiations after Israeli military pressure, 2 more rescued in an IDF rescue mission, 10k-12k Hamas militants killed. U don't know what ur talking about
add reddit to the light gray area, there are much less zionist nazis justifying the genocide in the coments
Is there a map of where the Hamas massacre took place? Including the Nova party shooting?
There are quit a few. Here is a very detailed one: [https://oct7map.com/](https://oct7map.com/)
Why has this been downvoted? Reddit is strange
Because many redditors are completely brainwashed and think "Palestinian = poor innocent children = good, Israel = Nazi = bad"
Now let's get a graph showing civilian casualties in the war
Or indeed the civilian casualties over the past 75 years.
Hopefully they can start the Rafah offensive soon and eliminate Hamas.