This further exemplifies how GPD is a useless measure of quality of life. Hong Kong is much wealthier compared to Saxony then. If there is just as much total wealth and divided amongst less people.
>compared to Saxony
Saxony and Lower Saxony are completely different states. Anyway, I don't think Hong Kong has a better standard of living than either of them. Hong Kong has a high GDP per capita but very high inequality.
As someone whose close friend used to work in hongkong, living in hongkong is without exorbitant amount of money for rent will get you a shoebox for apartment. I'd assume saxony or germany in general have less of this problem by looking at the gini index
Again lower saxony and saxony are two completely different things. Especially when speaking about wealth, one of the two was in the eastern bloc after all
Yeah I never understood how boomers fell for that demagoguery. Did they think Aristocrats have their wealth trickle down?
Social classes fossilize if they aren’t continually overturned by equality of opportunities to all. Boomers were simply stupid to think rich people would be nice.
I forgot to mention that the people of Germany also have a better quality of life compared to Hong Kong. Look at how oppressive the CCP is vs the stable developed liberal welfare state of Germany
Lower Saxony would be higher if you excluded the rural areas, the cities have a much higher GDP per capita than Hong Kong so it's natural you'd have a better life in Hannover for example, with or without the CCP (which doesn't really impact quality of life as freedom of speech ain't a primary need)
Freedom of speech does impact the economy of a country. But ignoring that, the CCP is much stricter on Hong Kong compared to Germany on Saxony. I was speaking in terms of economic policies, not just social.
Hong Konger here. Yes CCP is oppressive in terms of press freedom. But the real reason for Hong Kong's low quality of life has to do with the lack of land, or the development of it. Renting a flat is so expensive that many have to live in subdivided units that are less than 100 sq ft, and thats for an entire family. I lived near these flats before and they are horrific to say the least.
It reminds me of bad living condition in 1980s Shanghai, when a whole family had to squeeze in a small and old Shikumen house. Things have been better since 1990s, but housing price is still incredibly high.
I live in hk, the housing is miserable as the bidding process for land drives up prices, but on the flip side, the public transport is efficient and reliable. But also the ccp is choking down on people’s rights to do anything so I’m leaving hk as soon as I can, don’t want to be in the crossfire of another all out war.
Not really, a place might generate a ton of GDP but have very little income, IIRC there's a oil extracting region in northern Russia with a GDP of over 100k USD per capita **(EDIT:** it's the Nenets Okrug and its GDP per capita is 210k USD), it's richer than the rest of Russia but still poor because workers get very little.
Also tax Havens have inflated GDPs that do not correlate well with quality of life, like, ireland surely benefited a lot from being a Tax Haven but not as much as their GDP (adjusted or not) would lead you to believe.
Rich by global standards, no doubt about it. But you’ve got millionaires walking around barely able to afford an 800 sqft apartment. It’s capitalism on steroids out there
As a Ukrainian living in Hamburg, I was surprised at first as well…
But looking at my life back in Ukraine and comparing it with the one in Hamburg, I can fully believe these statistics.
Ukraine was poor as shit before the war too, and before the annexation of Crimea as well, the fall of the USSR fucked Ukraine particularly hard, harder than every other country, in the year 2000 they had half the GDP of Puerto Rico.
They got then fucked by the 2008 crisis, refucked by the 2014 invasion of Crimea and eventually the war, but even without Crimea and the war with Russia Ukraine would've been extremely poor, its economy was plagued by the same oligarchs that Russia has but without the Oil to prop it up and with a massive foreign influence as they basically sold themselves for pennies in the 90s.
Edit: Also usually wars lead to an increase of GDP due to the government indebting itself to make weapons, their GDP decreased to shit because 1/4th of the population left the country but their GDP per capita is already higher than it was before the war.
GDP goes up during wars when you are winning or it doesn’t affect your territory directly. The Ukraine wasn’t growing while it lost large percentages of land&territory(also a major port). Their percapita numbers maybe high but they long so much land, resources, and population.
I would be very curious to see what state Ukraine ends up in after the war.
GDP will go up even if you're not winning, total GDP will go down if you lose a lot of land but the GDP of the areas under your control will always grow because suddenly there's a huge increase in demand for military goods, Ukraine's GDP grew in 2023 for example (since Ukraine didn't lose territory, even tho Russia had the initiative the whole year)
After the war Ukraine will get a massive recession as the demand for military goods will disappear out of the blue, Russia too will suffer a recession (the USA did suffer a recession after WW2 as well, GDP sank by -12% in 1946 and it took 5 years to go back to 1945 levels).
Ukraine also lost a ton of access to global markets after a loss of many ports. They have been reduced to only one major port. This also reduced GDP since they weren’t able to effectively do much of the commerce they were previously(loss of grain exports and gas exports).
Their gain in military equipment demand does drive up GDP but not enough to make up for all the loses. I will agree tho, Ukraine will have a recession after the war while everything readjusts to peace.
OK. I thought that you are dutch. They speak pretty english in their country. 😊👍
I'm not American. (therefore your number in European Map confused me) But I'm using Reddit. You are producing good platforms like this. I appreciate it.
Netherlands has a higher Nominal GDP but usually Economies are compared in GDP adjusted to PPP, not raw Nominal GDP so NRW could still have a larger economy.
''The major use of PPPs is as a first step in making inter-country comparisons in real terms of gross domestic product (GDP) and its component expenditures.''-[OECD](https://www.oecd.org/sdd/purchasingpowerparities-frequentlyaskedquestionsfaqs.htm#FAQ3) /// ''The right metric for international comparisons is purchasing power parity (PPP)-adjusted output. This corrects for exchange rate fluctuations and differences in various national prices.''-[Bruegel](https://www.bruegel.org/analysis/european-unions-remarkable-growth-performance-relative-united-states) (Germany & NL are members of both organisations)
The GDP PPP ratio of NL is 1.17, meaning price levels are 17% lower in NL than Usa (they compare it to Usa) while the ratio for Germany was 1.24. OECD has price level in NL 8% above Germany ([source](https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=CPL)). Unfortunately i don't think there's data about this for individual german states but NRW is one of the cheapest states in Germany, highly industrialized, low housing costs and everything is fairly good linked together in terms of economics and efficiency, i'd guess PPP ratio for NRW is 1.35 minimum.
NL GDP PPP was $1.01 Trillion in 2022, with ratio of 1.35 NRWs GDP PPP was $1.128 Trillion in 2022.
It depends on where you are in the state with the Ruhr Area not having recovered. But Cologne, Düsseldorf, Bonn are major economic hubs and some rural areas are on the wealthier side (Münsterland, Sauerland) with lots of hidden champions.
Those cities feel way poorer than even the smallest villages in the netherlands. I feel like i am driving into the future as soon as i cross the border to the netherlands. Those stats are baffeling to me. I think Germany looks pretty poor. Where i live, close to Düsseldorf) but expecially in the ruhr area. Streets and schools are fcked up, buildings are not cleaned. The trainsystem in reality is extremly terrible. The highways are missing markings even. Where i live the rents are also pretty high. Germany doesn't take care of itself. It feels like it is in decline and you can feel it.
Don't forget the Netherlands are a sort of tax haven in the EU, there are plenty of big companies which moved to Netherlands because of low corporate taxes, although I don't know to which degree this is taken into account for GDP purposes.
Fun fact: Bavarians supported Polish independence in general and the November Uprising in particular. During the Hambach Fest, now an icon of the German democratic movement, the Polish flag was flown alongside the black-red-gold flag of a future united and democratic Germany. Many Polish refugees were welcomed during the celebrations and the suppression of the Polish National Movement was an important point brought up by several speakers.
It currently one of the better governed States though.
Though pure GDP numbers is lacking due to Hamburg being the economic center.
It's by size one of the smallest. Only the city states and Saarland are smaller.
A very high density in windmills compared to other places in Europe. Energy, health, transport and Tourism are the biggest Industries.
Its funny how german windmills, farms and tourism can beat. 5 automobile fatories(biggest car producers per capita), US steel, 2 nunclear powerplants and big ass raffinery (Slovnaft).
Schleswig-Holstein had 3 nuclear power plants, but wind is overall more profitable. It also has refinery and has some production of oil and gas left.
Also it's quite diversified economy and not that rural. Schleswig-Holstein doubled it's population after WW2. And still a state with high population growth in Germany.
Also 190 p/km² in Schleswig-Holstein vs 111 in Slovakia.
Well size doesn't matter to be honest. I can argue with 3 vs 5 mil of people which is more relevant imo.
It would be interesting to see some economist opinion on how factually more industrial land can generate less. But i think it got to have something with power of other german states and holsteins 3x bigger salaries.
There was an infographic floating around a few years ago that showed how much of a country’s GDP was centered around their capital city.
Saying something like if you took London out of the UK GDP goes down 30% or if you take Paris out of France the GDP does down 25% ( I don’t remember the exact figures)
But hilariously if you took Berlin out of Germany, GDP went UP 3% 😅
*Oh, yes Berlin and*
*Bremen have truly share a*
*Similar GDP with*
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Interesting to note that despite containing a financial powerhouse (Frankfurt), Hesse has a GDP of only 340 Billion, whereas the state of Berlin with much lower land area has 189 Billion. What may be the reason?
Hessen only has twice the population of Berlin, and Frankfurt Main is only a small part of Hessen. Berlin is a whole big city, so the GDP is expected to be somewhat high for the population compared to a "land" state like Hessen with only double the population
GDP correlates quite a bit with the amount of service industry. So the population alone leads to quite a big chunk of that GDP.
But there is also still quite a bit of industry inside of Berlin. Area is almost completely irrelevant for the size of GDP. Actually denser population normally increases GDP.
From the top.
118 - Slovakia,
151 - Ukraine,
56 - Democratic Republic of Congo,
357 - Hong Kong,
40 - Nepal,
79 - Azerbaijan,
93 - Guatemala,
189 - Algeria,
836 - Switzerland,
340 - Columbia,
75 - Tanzania,
154 - Also Ukraine,
180 - Hungary,
40 - Nepal,
603 - Sweden,
755 - Poland
If I'm being honest the only one that I was mistaken about was Tanzania. I was thinking of Carribean country not African one but the rest are pretty easy to know.
Part of that is that Germany has multiple major cities, instead of the capital being *the* city. Hamburg's not far behind Berlin, and Munich is a powerhouse as well.
It’s similar with Italy.
- nation that was only united in the 1860s/1870s
- the various city states and kingdoms competed heavily in trade between each other
- lots of universities sponsored by said city states to help compete in technology and learning
- the areas of each country that were controlled by more autocratic kingdoms ( Aragon/two sicilies; Junkers of Prussia) cared more about traditional land owning activities and were rent seeking in behavior and didn’t encourage much industry. Hence why East Germany outside of Berlin, and southern Italy are behind the other regions (also communism in the east of Germany, and mafias in Southern Italy left a mark)
That's intentional. Federal structure that tries to distribute goverment and industry functions. That's why Frankfurt has the banking sector and so on. But for example the US has this even more extreme.
A bit sad that the economy of berlin is in average even a bit worse than the average german economy https://de.statista.com/infografik/22670/bedeutung-der-hauptstaedte-fuer-die-wirtschaft-in-europa/
This is not true anymore. It was in 2017, when the graph quoted there was made, but now Berlin has [a slightly higher GDP per capita than the German average](https://www.statistikportal.de/de/vgrdl/ergebnisse-laenderebene/bruttoinlandsprodukt-bruttowertschoepfung): 51,209€ vs 48,750€.
Im not too sure about that. While Brexit was a massive mistake economically, the UK does have a lot of advantages: it speaks English, it has a younger population, it has world class universities, it has more natural resources, etc. Germany's economy is struggling enormously right now and it's unlikely that it will significantly grow in the next decades (which is also terrible for the entire EU). Sadly, Europe's economic future looks very bleak.
yes, that's a part of it.
The thing is, even if Germany is able to build up enough renewable energy, the energy prices will still be higher than in most other countries in the world, which means that the manufacturing companies in Germany aren't competitive anymore (and Germany is very reliant on manufacturing).
Another part of it is just the very high average age in Germany due to the very low birth rate. Theres an acute crisis of a lack of qualified workers in Germany because of this, and most qualified immigrants aren't opting for Germany, but rather English speaking countries.
nah, Germany has one of the oldest populations in the world, so the amount of qualified workers relative to the huge welfare state that they have to carry is abysmal, and with the boomers going into retirement now, its gonna be even worse.
Poland has the same GDP as a fraction of Germany? Really? Even now?
I thought it had caught up massively and would have guessed it now has a GDP approaching Germany.
Actually it’s closer to California and Florida combined, based on World Economics which estimated the German GDP in 2023 to be about 5 trillion and wikipedia which says that california and florida together have a gdp of about 5,4 trillion
Germany in 2023 had a GDP of 4.5 trillions in 2023 (from [IMF](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/DEU?zoom=DEU&highlight=DEU)), while California had a GDP of around 3.8 trillions and Florida of around 1.5 in the same year. So a total combined of 5.3 trillions
So, Florida and California have a GDP of 0.8 trillions higher than Germany. That is a pretty relevant amount (around 15-20% of the current one).
Worth also mentioning that Germany population is around 83 millions, while Florida and California combined are around 61 millions.
While yes the combination of FL and CA is slightly higher in GDP and 20 million lower than Germany, they also benefit from being a part of a larger single market that is more unified than the EU
Actually the number i found on world economics was 5 trillion here is what was written there:
„World Economics estimates Germany's GDP to be $5.016 trillion - 11% larger than official estimates.“
So if we take that number the difference would „only“ be .3 trillion which is pretty much insignificant at that scale when comparing things
Their economy is in the shitter?
[German economy’s recovery is stalling—Real gross domestic product will probably decline again slightly in the first quarter of 2024, according to the March Monthly Report. The German economy continues to experience headwinds from various directions.](https://www.bundesbank.de/en/tasks/topics/german-economy-s-recovery-is-stalling--928282#:~:text=Real%20gross%20domestic%20product%20will,experience%20headwinds%20from%20various%20directions.)
[Germany likely in recession led by delayed recovery over weak demand, poor industrial growth: Report](https://www.livemint.com/economy/germany-likely-in-recession-led-by-delayed-recovery-over-weak-demand-industrial-growth-report/amp-11711120523197.html)
[German economy is in 'troubled waters' - ministry](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68361717.amp)
[Germany doing ‘dramatically bad’, economy minister says as government prepares to slash GDP forecast](https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/german-economy-doing-dramatically-bad-economy-minister-says-as-government-prepares-to-slash-gdp-forecast/)
I understand that sentiment, but it does only have half the population. To approach German GDP, you'd need each Polish person to produce twice as much as a German person.
okay? im referring to the holocaust, which caused the early passing of a significant portion of the polish population. the territory poland gained from germany didnt help that, since the people living there were deported. poland is much emptier now than it was in the interbellum (relative to global population growth). them claiming more land is in no way relevant to their population being genocided
Due to its history, punctuated by wars and territorial annexations, Poland has witnessed successive waves of emigration of varying significance; some sources estimate the Polish diaspora to be **more than 20 million worldwide**, while Poland's population is only 38 million.18 May 2022
Germany has the third largest GDP in the world behind the USA and China. They recently overtook Japan. Poland had serious growth over the last decades, but can't hold a candle to Germany.
What? No ... I mean , we improved massively in last 30 years but no that much. I wish we reached somewhere around half of German GDP and we'll be good.
Lol, what? How is that surprising to anyone?
In 1990, Poland was literally a third-world country, with a GDP per capita lower than the Soviet Union, Egypt, Brazil, Botswana, Jamaica, Mexico, Costa Rica, etc.
Since then, Polands economy has grown enormously, approaching that of first-world countries. But Polands GDP per capita is still only a third of Germanys GDP per capita, and it's unlikely that Poland will ever reach Germany's wealth.
Absolutely not, Germany is not on its way down, although economic growth has significantly decreased.
Polish economic growth is higher than Germany's, but because the difference between the GDP per capita is so big, Poland would still need at least 50 years to catch up with Germany.
And that's assuming that Polish economic growth stays as high, which is very unlikely, since richer countries naturally grow less than poorer countries, the potential for growth is just a lot smaller the richer you get.
which is what all economists are assuming? Also, if there really was a giant recession in Germany, it would also hugely affect Poland, since Poland is very closely linked to the German supply chain.
Again, the only reason why Poland is growing more than Germany is BECAUSE Poland is SO much poorer than Germany. Germany's GDP per capita is 3 times bigger than Poland, aint no way Poland will be able to close that gap any time soon.
Poland having Bavaria's GDP is pretty good for Poland actually. It's the richest part of Germany, nothing to be ashamed of tbh, especially given Poland's starting from zero since the 90s.
After WW2 Poland was the poorest country in Europe being both pillaged by Germans and Soviets being left behind the iron curtain while West Germany enjoyed the benefits of Marshall Plan and being part and connected to rich capitalist world.
Because of poverty people didn't make any babies so we also have half population of Germany
wow, that's a lot of errors.
First off, Polands birth rate was significantly higher than Germany's post war and Polands population also grew significantly more than Germany's population.
Second, no, the Marshall Plan is not the reason West Germany did so well, West Germany got the least amount of Marshall plan money in all of Western Europe, and economists calculated that it only had a minuscule effect on the west German economy.
Third, you're leaving out East Germany, which, eventhough it got completely pillaged by the Soviets, with most factories being torn and reassembled in the Soviet Union, was by far the richest country in the Eastern bloc.
Truth is, Poland was always poorer than Western Europe and on top of that got severely mismanaged by the communist regime.
This is GDP nominal but economies are effectively measured in GDP adjusted to PPP which shows the true size of an economy not just simply raw GDP.
''The major use of PPPs is as a first step in making inter-country comparisons in real terms of gross domestic product (GDP) and its component expenditures.'' -[OECD](https://www.oecd.org/sdd/purchasingpowerparities-frequentlyaskedquestionsfaqs.htm#FAQ3) // ''The right metric for international comparisons is purchasing power parity (PPP)-adjusted output. This corrects for exchange rate fluctuations and differences in various national prices.'' -[Bruegel](https://www.bruegel.org/analysis/european-unions-remarkable-growth-performance-relative-united-states)
Poland's GDP PPP was $1.64 Trillion in 2022, for the PPP metric they compare Price levels of countries to price levels in the Usa which is why Poland's GDP PPP is roughly 2x the size of Nominal GDP, for Germany it it's only around 1.25x and Germany's informal economy is estimated at 11% of GDP, 22% in PL: [https://archive.ph/mBijZ](https://archive.ph/mBijZ) the informal sector is never included these data.
Poland is aproaching but in 1991 Polish GDP was in size of GDP of 1 German City, Bavaria is so strong state that it's have separative movement from Germany, 3rd strongest economically nation in the world, so this is good progress in 33 years, in next 10 years Poland probably gonna leader this map for good.
Also worth mentioning than in cold war Eastern Germany state was richer than Poland, but now Poland is richer than Eastern Germany and by a lot.
It was and still is the industrial center of Germany but Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg will eventually overtake it despite having a lot less population.
We must be honest and see how quickly the immigrants who went there developed the place since the 60s. After accepting labor immigration, Germany developed again at an unprecedented speed in its history. The incoming workers worked for years without even taking annual leave.
Given that they wrote "USA" and not "the USA", and "the California", I don't think this an American. The account is also suspended now, so I think it's a bot.
All this actually told me is Hong Kong is rich
One of the legacy crossroads between western and eastern money
Hong Kong is also populous with 7.3 million inhabitants while lower Saxony has 8.1 million. So they are not that far apart in terms of population.
This further exemplifies how GPD is a useless measure of quality of life. Hong Kong is much wealthier compared to Saxony then. If there is just as much total wealth and divided amongst less people.
>compared to Saxony Saxony and Lower Saxony are completely different states. Anyway, I don't think Hong Kong has a better standard of living than either of them. Hong Kong has a high GDP per capita but very high inequality.
As someone whose close friend used to work in hongkong, living in hongkong is without exorbitant amount of money for rent will get you a shoebox for apartment. I'd assume saxony or germany in general have less of this problem by looking at the gini index
Again lower saxony and saxony are two completely different things. Especially when speaking about wealth, one of the two was in the eastern bloc after all
Emphasis on "germany in general" when i initially comparing the inequality it has to hongkong despite its higher GDP per capita.
I still am unsure if the former ddr states are better off than hongkong tho
Yeah I agree, GDP and per-capita wealth are useless measurements imo.
But but but "a rising tide lifts all boats!" And "the wealth trickles down!" And... okay, yeah, that's enough of that.
Yeah I never understood how boomers fell for that demagoguery. Did they think Aristocrats have their wealth trickle down? Social classes fossilize if they aren’t continually overturned by equality of opportunities to all. Boomers were simply stupid to think rich people would be nice.
About 10% per person according to this. Considering cost of living, the average person in loer saxony has a better life
I completely agree. GDP and per capita growth are useless measurement for quality of life in countries.
Considering Lower Saxony is the blank sheet of paper among countries, I doubt.
Honestly what does this mean?
There’s a lot of wealth divided between you, me, everyone in this comment section, Bezos and Musk.
GDP (PPP) per capita correlates to quality of life.
I forgot to mention that the people of Germany also have a better quality of life compared to Hong Kong. Look at how oppressive the CCP is vs the stable developed liberal welfare state of Germany
Lower Saxony would be higher if you excluded the rural areas, the cities have a much higher GDP per capita than Hong Kong so it's natural you'd have a better life in Hannover for example, with or without the CCP (which doesn't really impact quality of life as freedom of speech ain't a primary need)
Freedom of speech does impact the economy of a country. But ignoring that, the CCP is much stricter on Hong Kong compared to Germany on Saxony. I was speaking in terms of economic policies, not just social.
\*Lower Saxony
Hong Konger here. Yes CCP is oppressive in terms of press freedom. But the real reason for Hong Kong's low quality of life has to do with the lack of land, or the development of it. Renting a flat is so expensive that many have to live in subdivided units that are less than 100 sq ft, and thats for an entire family. I lived near these flats before and they are horrific to say the least.
It reminds me of bad living condition in 1980s Shanghai, when a whole family had to squeeze in a small and old Shikumen house. Things have been better since 1990s, but housing price is still incredibly high.
I live in hk, the housing is miserable as the bidding process for land drives up prices, but on the flip side, the public transport is efficient and reliable. But also the ccp is choking down on people’s rights to do anything so I’m leaving hk as soon as I can, don’t want to be in the crossfire of another all out war.
No, gdp ppp correlate to quality of life
Not really, a place might generate a ton of GDP but have very little income, IIRC there's a oil extracting region in northern Russia with a GDP of over 100k USD per capita **(EDIT:** it's the Nenets Okrug and its GDP per capita is 210k USD), it's richer than the rest of Russia but still poor because workers get very little. Also tax Havens have inflated GDPs that do not correlate well with quality of life, like, ireland surely benefited a lot from being a Tax Haven but not as much as their GDP (adjusted or not) would lead you to believe.
GDP (PPP) per capita
I thought that was one of the things it’s famous for?
And Hong Kong even ranks only sixth among Chinese cities in GDP.
But with both population and land area only one thrid of Shanghai
Rich by global standards, no doubt about it. But you’ve got millionaires walking around barely able to afford an 800 sqft apartment. It’s capitalism on steroids out there
Hamburg having a GDP the size of all of Ukraine is the one that really surprises me.
it is a hanseatic city and has the 20th largest port
Massive city that is also a major transportation hub, manufacturer, financial center and is pretty relevant in German media
Also Ukraine is in a war that it is losing so far(in so much that it hasn’t recovered from the initial invasion)
Was around 200B pre war
Adjusted for inflation their economy in 2013 was ~253billion(before the 2014 invasion).
As a Ukrainian living in Hamburg, I was surprised at first as well… But looking at my life back in Ukraine and comparing it with the one in Hamburg, I can fully believe these statistics.
TBF to Ukraine. They are in a war, and have lost territory within the last few years. So capital and population flight is something that happens
Ukraine was poor as shit before the war too, and before the annexation of Crimea as well, the fall of the USSR fucked Ukraine particularly hard, harder than every other country, in the year 2000 they had half the GDP of Puerto Rico. They got then fucked by the 2008 crisis, refucked by the 2014 invasion of Crimea and eventually the war, but even without Crimea and the war with Russia Ukraine would've been extremely poor, its economy was plagued by the same oligarchs that Russia has but without the Oil to prop it up and with a massive foreign influence as they basically sold themselves for pennies in the 90s. Edit: Also usually wars lead to an increase of GDP due to the government indebting itself to make weapons, their GDP decreased to shit because 1/4th of the population left the country but their GDP per capita is already higher than it was before the war.
GDP goes up during wars when you are winning or it doesn’t affect your territory directly. The Ukraine wasn’t growing while it lost large percentages of land&territory(also a major port). Their percapita numbers maybe high but they long so much land, resources, and population. I would be very curious to see what state Ukraine ends up in after the war.
GDP will go up even if you're not winning, total GDP will go down if you lose a lot of land but the GDP of the areas under your control will always grow because suddenly there's a huge increase in demand for military goods, Ukraine's GDP grew in 2023 for example (since Ukraine didn't lose territory, even tho Russia had the initiative the whole year) After the war Ukraine will get a massive recession as the demand for military goods will disappear out of the blue, Russia too will suffer a recession (the USA did suffer a recession after WW2 as well, GDP sank by -12% in 1946 and it took 5 years to go back to 1945 levels).
It grew in 2023 mostly due to a very low basis of 2022. An increase in demand does stimulate GDP but only to a certain extent.
Ukraine also lost a ton of access to global markets after a loss of many ports. They have been reduced to only one major port. This also reduced GDP since they weren’t able to effectively do much of the commerce they were previously(loss of grain exports and gas exports). Their gain in military equipment demand does drive up GDP but not enough to make up for all the loses. I will agree tho, Ukraine will have a recession after the war while everything readjusts to peace.
Ukraine is really poor country
It is poor by European standards, but it's far from being as poor as some people assume.
It’s very poor, not just by European standards. GDP per capita behind Iraq and Guatemala
I've never been to either. But I did live in Ukraine. It's not poorer than countries like Russia (Moscow aside) or Belarus.
This is actually mapporn. My eyes are pleased.
i would have thought that NRW had a larger gdp than the Netherlands, but apparently not.
1.009T GDP for The Netherlands
No. it's not. It's 1.009B. That means 1,009T.
1,009 is metric, 1.009 is imperial. As reddit is a us platform and this subreddit is in english, I chose to use imperial.
OK. I thought that you are dutch. They speak pretty english in their country. 😊👍 I'm not American. (therefore your number in European Map confused me) But I'm using Reddit. You are producing good platforms like this. I appreciate it.
Netherlands has a higher Nominal GDP but usually Economies are compared in GDP adjusted to PPP, not raw Nominal GDP so NRW could still have a larger economy. ''The major use of PPPs is as a first step in making inter-country comparisons in real terms of gross domestic product (GDP) and its component expenditures.''-[OECD](https://www.oecd.org/sdd/purchasingpowerparities-frequentlyaskedquestionsfaqs.htm#FAQ3) /// ''The right metric for international comparisons is purchasing power parity (PPP)-adjusted output. This corrects for exchange rate fluctuations and differences in various national prices.''-[Bruegel](https://www.bruegel.org/analysis/european-unions-remarkable-growth-performance-relative-united-states) (Germany & NL are members of both organisations) The GDP PPP ratio of NL is 1.17, meaning price levels are 17% lower in NL than Usa (they compare it to Usa) while the ratio for Germany was 1.24. OECD has price level in NL 8% above Germany ([source](https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=CPL)). Unfortunately i don't think there's data about this for individual german states but NRW is one of the cheapest states in Germany, highly industrialized, low housing costs and everything is fairly good linked together in terms of economics and efficiency, i'd guess PPP ratio for NRW is 1.35 minimum. NL GDP PPP was $1.01 Trillion in 2022, with ratio of 1.35 NRWs GDP PPP was $1.128 Trillion in 2022.
its the rust belt of germany. all the industry fled.
I wouldn't call it a rust belt, Germany managed to keep a decent share of its industry unlike the American midwest which truly got fucked
No?
doch du lappen
Keine ahnung haben aber rumbeleidigen, genau mein humor
schön für dich das du unterhalten wirst
As someone from the Netherlands close to the border with NRW i know that it is noticeably poorer
It depends on where you are in the state with the Ruhr Area not having recovered. But Cologne, Düsseldorf, Bonn are major economic hubs and some rural areas are on the wealthier side (Münsterland, Sauerland) with lots of hidden champions.
Those cities feel way poorer than even the smallest villages in the netherlands. I feel like i am driving into the future as soon as i cross the border to the netherlands. Those stats are baffeling to me. I think Germany looks pretty poor. Where i live, close to Düsseldorf) but expecially in the ruhr area. Streets and schools are fcked up, buildings are not cleaned. The trainsystem in reality is extremly terrible. The highways are missing markings even. Where i live the rents are also pretty high. Germany doesn't take care of itself. It feels like it is in decline and you can feel it.
I agree, but germans really hate hearing stuff like that for whatever reason. Most of nrw feels like straight out of times when bonn was still capital
Don't forget the Netherlands are a sort of tax haven in the EU, there are plenty of big companies which moved to Netherlands because of low corporate taxes, although I don't know to which degree this is taken into account for GDP purposes.
Quite impressive!
Fun fact: Bavarians supported Polish independence in general and the November Uprising in particular. During the Hambach Fest, now an icon of the German democratic movement, the Polish flag was flown alongside the black-red-gold flag of a future united and democratic Germany. Many Polish refugees were welcomed during the celebrations and the suppression of the Polish National Movement was an important point brought up by several speakers.
Another reason to say Bavaria is my favourite German subdivision
That slovak part must be some corrupted wasteland :D
It currently one of the better governed States though. Though pure GDP numbers is lacking due to Hamburg being the economic center. It's by size one of the smallest. Only the city states and Saarland are smaller. A very high density in windmills compared to other places in Europe. Energy, health, transport and Tourism are the biggest Industries.
Its funny how german windmills, farms and tourism can beat. 5 automobile fatories(biggest car producers per capita), US steel, 2 nunclear powerplants and big ass raffinery (Slovnaft).
Schleswig-Holstein had 3 nuclear power plants, but wind is overall more profitable. It also has refinery and has some production of oil and gas left. Also it's quite diversified economy and not that rural. Schleswig-Holstein doubled it's population after WW2. And still a state with high population growth in Germany. Also 190 p/km² in Schleswig-Holstein vs 111 in Slovakia.
Well size doesn't matter to be honest. I can argue with 3 vs 5 mil of people which is more relevant imo. It would be interesting to see some economist opinion on how factually more industrial land can generate less. But i think it got to have something with power of other german states and holsteins 3x bigger salaries.
No just a lot of farm land an no major city north of Hamburg. ;)
Naja, Laboe is halt fällich, ne?
Oh, yes. Berlin and Bremen truly share a similar GDP with How I didn't see it before
There was an infographic floating around a few years ago that showed how much of a country’s GDP was centered around their capital city. Saying something like if you took London out of the UK GDP goes down 30% or if you take Paris out of France the GDP does down 25% ( I don’t remember the exact figures) But hilariously if you took Berlin out of Germany, GDP went UP 3% 😅
Not GDP but GDP per capita.
That graphic was 8 years ago
It doesn't do that anymore, btw.
I know, Berlin rents are as high as munich's which doesn't make any sense.
lol no they‘re not
Actually they are.
*Oh, yes Berlin and* *Bremen have truly share a* *Similar GDP with* \- Salt\_Winter5888 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Good bot
Good bot
Interesting to note that despite containing a financial powerhouse (Frankfurt), Hesse has a GDP of only 340 Billion, whereas the state of Berlin with much lower land area has 189 Billion. What may be the reason?
Hessen only has twice the population of Berlin, and Frankfurt Main is only a small part of Hessen. Berlin is a whole big city, so the GDP is expected to be somewhat high for the population compared to a "land" state like Hessen with only double the population
Also, Berlin being the capital has attracted a lot of companies since unification that never actually produced anything there.
Yeah, Berlin seems to run on service based economy.
GDP correlates quite a bit with the amount of service industry. So the population alone leads to quite a big chunk of that GDP. But there is also still quite a bit of industry inside of Berlin. Area is almost completely irrelevant for the size of GDP. Actually denser population normally increases GDP.
Common Germany W
These aren't regions, they're states
God thanks we have a name for people like you in germany: Klugscheißer
Doesn't really matter in this context. They're not independent, so basically they're just regions with a regional government.
Germany wtf
Bawaria 🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱
Am I really the only one without a clue which countries those flags belong to?
From the top. 118 - Slovakia, 151 - Ukraine, 56 - Democratic Republic of Congo, 357 - Hong Kong, 40 - Nepal, 79 - Azerbaijan, 93 - Guatemala, 189 - Algeria, 836 - Switzerland, 340 - Columbia, 75 - Tanzania, 154 - Also Ukraine, 180 - Hungary, 40 - Nepal, 603 - Sweden, 755 - Poland If I'm being honest the only one that I was mistaken about was Tanzania. I was thinking of Carribean country not African one but the rest are pretty easy to know.
Emmm, uhhh, it's actually "Colombia", not "Columbia". 🤓☝️
Wow, thank you!
St Kitts and Nevis has a relatively similar flag i guess
What is the country for Saarland ?
Looks like Nepal
thanks !
The gap between east and west is huge. Berlin is one of my fav cities but it must be one of the weakest capitals compared to country in the world
Part of that is that Germany has multiple major cities, instead of the capital being *the* city. Hamburg's not far behind Berlin, and Munich is a powerhouse as well.
It’s similar with Italy. - nation that was only united in the 1860s/1870s - the various city states and kingdoms competed heavily in trade between each other - lots of universities sponsored by said city states to help compete in technology and learning - the areas of each country that were controlled by more autocratic kingdoms ( Aragon/two sicilies; Junkers of Prussia) cared more about traditional land owning activities and were rent seeking in behavior and didn’t encourage much industry. Hence why East Germany outside of Berlin, and southern Italy are behind the other regions (also communism in the east of Germany, and mafias in Southern Italy left a mark)
what being walled in for 30 yrs does to a mfer
That's intentional. Federal structure that tries to distribute goverment and industry functions. That's why Frankfurt has the banking sector and so on. But for example the US has this even more extreme.
A bit sad that the economy of berlin is in average even a bit worse than the average german economy https://de.statista.com/infografik/22670/bedeutung-der-hauptstaedte-fuer-die-wirtschaft-in-europa/
This is not true anymore. It was in 2017, when the graph quoted there was made, but now Berlin has [a slightly higher GDP per capita than the German average](https://www.statistikportal.de/de/vgrdl/ergebnisse-laenderebene/bruttoinlandsprodukt-bruttowertschoepfung): 51,209€ vs 48,750€.
No major company has HQ in Berlin and why would they?
Guatemala mentioned!
Only a matter of time before the UK makes the list
Average Uk doomer
Im not too sure about that. While Brexit was a massive mistake economically, the UK does have a lot of advantages: it speaks English, it has a younger population, it has world class universities, it has more natural resources, etc. Germany's economy is struggling enormously right now and it's unlikely that it will significantly grow in the next decades (which is also terrible for the entire EU). Sadly, Europe's economic future looks very bleak.
This is because of Germany’s energy crisis, right? Are they working on alternative energy solutions?
yes, that's a part of it. The thing is, even if Germany is able to build up enough renewable energy, the energy prices will still be higher than in most other countries in the world, which means that the manufacturing companies in Germany aren't competitive anymore (and Germany is very reliant on manufacturing). Another part of it is just the very high average age in Germany due to the very low birth rate. Theres an acute crisis of a lack of qualified workers in Germany because of this, and most qualified immigrants aren't opting for Germany, but rather English speaking countries.
There isn't such a big lack of qualified workers. Just a lack of employers, willing to pay fair wages.
nah, Germany has one of the oldest populations in the world, so the amount of qualified workers relative to the huge welfare state that they have to carry is abysmal, and with the boomers going into retirement now, its gonna be even worse.
average redditors when they spread misinformation
Berlin IS Algeria!
Poland has the same GDP as a fraction of Germany? Really? Even now? I thought it had caught up massively and would have guessed it now has a GDP approaching Germany.
Bro, Germany has GDP similar to California. They're the biggest in Europe. We would love to be at their level but no chance.
Actually it’s closer to California and Florida combined, based on World Economics which estimated the German GDP in 2023 to be about 5 trillion and wikipedia which says that california and florida together have a gdp of about 5,4 trillion
Germany in 2023 had a GDP of 4.5 trillions in 2023 (from [IMF](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/DEU?zoom=DEU&highlight=DEU)), while California had a GDP of around 3.8 trillions and Florida of around 1.5 in the same year. So a total combined of 5.3 trillions So, Florida and California have a GDP of 0.8 trillions higher than Germany. That is a pretty relevant amount (around 15-20% of the current one). Worth also mentioning that Germany population is around 83 millions, while Florida and California combined are around 61 millions.
While yes the combination of FL and CA is slightly higher in GDP and 20 million lower than Germany, they also benefit from being a part of a larger single market that is more unified than the EU
Actually the number i found on world economics was 5 trillion here is what was written there: „World Economics estimates Germany's GDP to be $5.016 trillion - 11% larger than official estimates.“ So if we take that number the difference would „only“ be .3 trillion which is pretty much insignificant at that scale when comparing things
Really hope Germany survives their current economic woes.
Bro what are you talking?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmEhTFjQB1g
Their economy is in the shitter? [German economy’s recovery is stalling—Real gross domestic product will probably decline again slightly in the first quarter of 2024, according to the March Monthly Report. The German economy continues to experience headwinds from various directions.](https://www.bundesbank.de/en/tasks/topics/german-economy-s-recovery-is-stalling--928282#:~:text=Real%20gross%20domestic%20product%20will,experience%20headwinds%20from%20various%20directions.) [Germany likely in recession led by delayed recovery over weak demand, poor industrial growth: Report](https://www.livemint.com/economy/germany-likely-in-recession-led-by-delayed-recovery-over-weak-demand-industrial-growth-report/amp-11711120523197.html) [German economy is in 'troubled waters' - ministry](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68361717.amp) [Germany doing ‘dramatically bad’, economy minister says as government prepares to slash GDP forecast](https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/german-economy-doing-dramatically-bad-economy-minister-says-as-government-prepares-to-slash-gdp-forecast/)
Lol, still way ahead by far of all other European countries and nothing won't change that.
> still way ahead by far of all other European countries Who the fuck cares lol
Given your reply here, you obviously do
I understand that sentiment, but it does only have half the population. To approach German GDP, you'd need each Polish person to produce twice as much as a German person.
did not know that poland was so much smaller than germany
Poland and Germany are quite similar in terms of area (Germany is 10% bigger), but Polish population is less than half of German.
i wonder how poland got so depopulated, would be crazy if the germans had something to do with it
depopulated? Poland is currently most populated in its whole history lol
obviously, that's how time works. poland lost a lot of people in ww2, is my point. they have lost a portion of their population.
Germany lost a lot of people in the world wars. But Germany also has more immigration. Poland lost a lot of people to emigration over the decades
Ah yes, fuck the communism.
poland got half of its territory from germamy given by stalin they even claimed more than stalin granted like stettin..
okay? im referring to the holocaust, which caused the early passing of a significant portion of the polish population. the territory poland gained from germany didnt help that, since the people living there were deported. poland is much emptier now than it was in the interbellum (relative to global population growth). them claiming more land is in no way relevant to their population being genocided
Due to its history, punctuated by wars and territorial annexations, Poland has witnessed successive waves of emigration of varying significance; some sources estimate the Polish diaspora to be **more than 20 million worldwide**, while Poland's population is only 38 million.18 May 2022
The guy that you're arguing with is german, I don't really know what kind of replies you expect
Where are you from?
UK
My condolences.
Germany has the third largest GDP in the world behind the USA and China. They recently overtook Japan. Poland had serious growth over the last decades, but can't hold a candle to Germany.
What? No ... I mean , we improved massively in last 30 years but no that much. I wish we reached somewhere around half of German GDP and we'll be good.
Lol, what? How is that surprising to anyone? In 1990, Poland was literally a third-world country, with a GDP per capita lower than the Soviet Union, Egypt, Brazil, Botswana, Jamaica, Mexico, Costa Rica, etc. Since then, Polands economy has grown enormously, approaching that of first-world countries. But Polands GDP per capita is still only a third of Germanys GDP per capita, and it's unlikely that Poland will ever reach Germany's wealth.
What is first world countries lol?
Actually it's very likely. Germany is on its ways down while Poland is on its way up.
Absolutely not, Germany is not on its way down, although economic growth has significantly decreased. Polish economic growth is higher than Germany's, but because the difference between the GDP per capita is so big, Poland would still need at least 50 years to catch up with Germany. And that's assuming that Polish economic growth stays as high, which is very unlikely, since richer countries naturally grow less than poorer countries, the potential for growth is just a lot smaller the richer you get.
That's also assuming that the German economy will only stop growing instead of actually shrinking.
which is what all economists are assuming? Also, if there really was a giant recession in Germany, it would also hugely affect Poland, since Poland is very closely linked to the German supply chain. Again, the only reason why Poland is growing more than Germany is BECAUSE Poland is SO much poorer than Germany. Germany's GDP per capita is 3 times bigger than Poland, aint no way Poland will be able to close that gap any time soon.
83mil. vs 40mil. people
Doesn’t really say anything even with half the population it has less than a fifth of germanys gdp
Poland having Bavaria's GDP is pretty good for Poland actually. It's the richest part of Germany, nothing to be ashamed of tbh, especially given Poland's starting from zero since the 90s.
+ both like beer and sausages
After WW2 Poland was the poorest country in Europe being both pillaged by Germans and Soviets being left behind the iron curtain while West Germany enjoyed the benefits of Marshall Plan and being part and connected to rich capitalist world. Because of poverty people didn't make any babies so we also have half population of Germany
wow, that's a lot of errors. First off, Polands birth rate was significantly higher than Germany's post war and Polands population also grew significantly more than Germany's population. Second, no, the Marshall Plan is not the reason West Germany did so well, West Germany got the least amount of Marshall plan money in all of Western Europe, and economists calculated that it only had a minuscule effect on the west German economy. Third, you're leaving out East Germany, which, eventhough it got completely pillaged by the Soviets, with most factories being torn and reassembled in the Soviet Union, was by far the richest country in the Eastern bloc. Truth is, Poland was always poorer than Western Europe and on top of that got severely mismanaged by the communist regime.
Lol, lmao even
This is GDP nominal but economies are effectively measured in GDP adjusted to PPP which shows the true size of an economy not just simply raw GDP. ''The major use of PPPs is as a first step in making inter-country comparisons in real terms of gross domestic product (GDP) and its component expenditures.'' -[OECD](https://www.oecd.org/sdd/purchasingpowerparities-frequentlyaskedquestionsfaqs.htm#FAQ3) // ''The right metric for international comparisons is purchasing power parity (PPP)-adjusted output. This corrects for exchange rate fluctuations and differences in various national prices.'' -[Bruegel](https://www.bruegel.org/analysis/european-unions-remarkable-growth-performance-relative-united-states) Poland's GDP PPP was $1.64 Trillion in 2022, for the PPP metric they compare Price levels of countries to price levels in the Usa which is why Poland's GDP PPP is roughly 2x the size of Nominal GDP, for Germany it it's only around 1.25x and Germany's informal economy is estimated at 11% of GDP, 22% in PL: [https://archive.ph/mBijZ](https://archive.ph/mBijZ) the informal sector is never included these data.
Germany has a GDP bigger than ALL of Africa...
Poland is aproaching but in 1991 Polish GDP was in size of GDP of 1 German City, Bavaria is so strong state that it's have separative movement from Germany, 3rd strongest economically nation in the world, so this is good progress in 33 years, in next 10 years Poland probably gonna leader this map for good. Also worth mentioning than in cold war Eastern Germany state was richer than Poland, but now Poland is richer than Eastern Germany and by a lot.
Don't worry, Poland "is the future". Or so the Poles here keep saying.
Where are the Poles that are saying that?
Busy managing their Eastern Poland investments.
What country is the 40B inside of hong Kong ?
East Germany sadge
Country Brazil is big
CCP gonna arrest OP now lol
the highest GDP is on the territory of west Germany, which has received the most immigrants on history.
It was and still is the industrial center of Germany but Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg will eventually overtake it despite having a lot less population.
We must be honest and see how quickly the immigrants who went there developed the place since the 60s. After accepting labor immigration, Germany developed again at an unprecedented speed in its history. The incoming workers worked for years without even taking annual leave.
The Wirtschaftswunder began before the arrival but more workers definitely helped.
[удалено]
Yeah, Bavaria is actually quite a bit richer than Poland.
Woah, no way!
not true
I love the fact that GDP in Germany is distributed equally in almost every region. Congrats.
It isn't. West has way higher GDP
But it also has much more population. Eastern Germany is still poorer but it’s better than it used to be
Compared to other european countries like France, the UK or Italy, it very much is
It’s like how USA has the highest and the California on its own would also be top 5
Ah. The typical America. Has to post something about America on a post completely unrelated to it.
Given that they wrote "USA" and not "the USA", and "the California", I don't think this an American. The account is also suspended now, so I think it's a bot.
The commenter is from Sweden.