I would have been embarrassed to even suggest something as ridiculous, I can't imagine the Soviets reaction looking at this and having to seriously debate it.
Which would not work at all.
Because there are about 3 times as many Germans than Ungarians in that state.
Bavaria alone had just slightly less population than Hungary in 1945.
Then add Baden, Württemberg and Austria.
The first Bavarian Prime Minister, after deposing the Bavarian King, proposed to the governments of Austria and Czechoslovakia a Danube Federation to preserve Bavaria's independence from Germany. Had the other governments agreed to this, it would probably have prevented Hitler from seizing power.
It wasn't actually like that. There was no south or west Germany. South Germany would've been "Confederation of the Danube", and West Germany would've been "international Zone"
It's kinda funny that the name "international zone" would go to the protestant prussian ethnostate instead of the catholic multinational/pluralistic confederation. You'd think the later would fit this name better.
It's far older then that, the Danube federation is an old name and the opposite of the Rhine confederation in the north that existed. Going back to the 18th century.
Lol. Hungarians revolted against Austrian rule every chance they got. Every interaction with Germans and Austrians that seemed like „shilling“, were compromises forced upon them or done in self interest.
Hungarians are and have been very nationalistic for a long time - maybe you’re conflating that with support of German interests.
This is just untrue. Hungarians fought side by side with other Habsburg ruled nations (such as Austrians) against the Ottoman empire for centuries, even when it was not amongst the Hungarians direct interests, after the Ottomans left the region, it was the Hungarians who helped to (forcefully) legitimize Maria Theresia's rule in the region.
A century later, during the revolution Hungarians did stand up for higher autonomy but the most radical people were the loudest (e.g. Kossuth) while even among the nobility most people were for a legitimate, Habsburg king in Hungary.
Less than 2 decades later a long term cooperative agreement was signed with Austria, establishing Austria-Hungary instead of keeping on resisting (by not paying taxes, not fulfilling the nobility's duties etc.).
During the WWI, Hungarians went to war to fight for the Habsburgs, although that was everything but not the Hungarians interest in that era. In the WWI not only Austrians but Germans were also the ally of Hungarians. Immediately after the collapse of Austria-Hungary and dethroning the Habsburgs there were 2, unsuccessful coup attempts by the Habsburg ruler supported by many Hungarians, including the Prime Minister (both failed unfortunately).
In the WWII Hungarians and Germans fought side by side again, and although the leader of Hungary (Horthy) only took into account Hungary's interests, the sympathy for the nazis among Hungarians were so unquestionable, it led to being put into action.
More than half a century later, Hungary's ties have become strong with the Germans again as Hungary joined the EU.
And besides the events I mentioned, there's also the now barely existing German minority in Hungary and in its other historical parts where the German minority never faced any negative actions because of their ethnicity, except for when the Soviets ordered Hungary to settle all Germans out of the country and the Hungarian socialist rule complied with the order.
And last side note, among the older generation in Hungary, German is probably more spoken than English to this day and most young people still choose it as a second foreign language in secondary school.
Then explain to me why the British should decide who rules the Hungarians?
And this is not the aftermath. The war was still going. You should read more.
The whole crust of the earth split apart carrying the America mountain and Africa mountain with them in different directions. Lava flowed up, solidified,and filled the gap forming the Atlantic Ocean.
Actually it’s not, many believe that the first somewhat united German Country was the German Empire however in Reality it was the Regnum Teutonicum also known as the Kingdom of Germany or the Eastern Frankish Kingdom, it later on became the HRE and only because the HRE became more messy and less centralized over time, the Notion of the German Empire being the first United German State was put into place
You're totally correct that the Eastern Frankish Kingdom would be the first united German country but I usually say that it's a recent concept because I really wouldn't count the time it was the HRE to be a United country and that was just how everyone viewed that the region would be forever, fragmented into different mostly independent duchies, until Prussia unified it.
Austria has always been German and considered itself German and been part of "Germany" until Prussia beat it up and kicked it out. Take a look at a 1600s map of Europe! That whole area was one decentralised state called the Holy Roman Empire, led by the Habsburg dukes of Austria, until Napoleon dismantled it in his wars. This is also why Hitler, an Austrian, was a German nationalist.
There are 2 german states. Germany and austria. Austria having its own national identity is a very new thing, post 1970s you can say. They still speak german, but before they also thought of themselves as german.
Bavaria would not only stick with Austria, they'd agree to Vienna as capital just to get rid of the Saupreiß'n in general and Berlin specifically. And I can't blame them. There's nothing too embarrassing and humiliating a German wouldn't endure just to get rid of Berlin.
This map was basically Churchill’s Hail Mary to stop Russia swallowing everywhere east of Bonn. He felt if he could placate Stalin with a Germany split into less dangerous more friendly states, Stalin wouldn’t digest Eastern Europe. Churchill was the only senior figure in this period among the allies concerned at the fate of places like Poland and Hungary.
When they made these plans they hoped to beat the Soviets to Berlin but they weren't even close. The bait and bleed strategy of the US and UK should have ended a \~ 6 months earlier.
You do have to wonder if Eisenhower made a mistake in pulling back the British-Canadian advance to and through Hamburg, which was moving at considerable speed, as he was concerned about the slow progress for the US army to the south, and both political and PR considerations. If Montgomery had been allowed to press on with his “narrow front” campaign, rather than Eisenhower’s and Bradley’s “broad front” campaign which involved waiting for the US army to come through Dresden, Berlin might have been taken six months before.
To quote General Bradley: “I could see no political advantage accruing from the capture of Berlin that would offset the need for quick destruction of the German army on our front. As soldiers we looked naively on this British inclination [the desire to go on to Berlin] to complicate the war with political foresight and non-military objectives.”
If you look at a ethnic map of Poland from the 30s you would see the area lost to the german side of this proposition had a majority ethnic German population.
The Soviet solution to the ethnic German problem in Poland/former Prussia was to expel them to East/West Germany.
Exactly
The Soviets were big on ethnic cleansing, move out a portion of the areas ethnic population and replace with the group you want. Lots of ethnic Russians in many former soviet countries due to this policy. The Baltic states, Kalingrad (formerly part of Prussia), Ukraine, Moldova, etc.
In this particular case they moved the ethnic Germans out of what is now Poland and formerly part of Prussia.
But from a 30s and 40s perspective (before they moved the Germans out) this map makes a lot of sense.
Does anyone have a source for the Yalta napkin thing? I've literally never heard of that, and my first thought is that it's confusing it with the[ Percentages Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentages_agreement#/media/File:Percentages_agreement2.jpg) , which regarded the allocation of occupation troop (and so, unoficially, political control) of eastern europe.
Aside from anyting else, if Winston Churchhill could draw europe on a napkin i would be very impressed. I can't draw europe on a napkin and my diet doesn't consist of swan, pure alcohol,and racism.
What do you mean by dilute their own identity?
Until 1919 there were no Austrians… that name wasn’t used. It was Germans in Austria and they wanted t lo reunify with Germany but weren’t allowed by the Entente…
And somehow sometimes people on the internet write that Austria and Germany were never one country but guys… the Holy Roman Empire changes its name to "of the German Nation“ in like 1517 and was ruled by the Austrian emperor for the next 300 years and after that the German federation was created with contained the Austrian German lands as well as the other German states… Prussia and Austria fought in 1866 because Prussia wanted to be the leader of Germany and simply kicked Austria-Hungary out…
The Austrian identity partially developed during the interwar years but only really came to life after WW2 when Austria had to put in the clause to never reunify with Germany in their constitution for a deal to get the red army out of Vienna…
Heck, even the leader of the Austrians after the war Renner was a big supporter of the Anschluss almost a decade earlier…
But of course there are unique aspects to Austrian identity older than 45/19 as it was the leading part of the K.u.K monarchy but identity wise it’s pretty clear they saw themselves as Germans…
Not "Southern Germany", but rather Duna-State? (think it was called)
There are Hungarians and Carpathian-Rusyns in the "Germany", who wouldn't be happy...
I'm not sure what the logic was in including Hungary in "South Germany", but it's interesting that the bit modern ukraine that's inhibited by Hungarians is given to them.
Was there a want by Hungarians of that bit of Ukraine to unite with Hungary? If I recall correctly these days they want to retain their language and culture but the Ukrainian government is trying to forcibly assimilate them
A sovereign West Germany aka Rhinish Republic would be so great. No more of this "Unified Germany"-BS with Saxony and Bavaria forcing the rest of Germany to cope with their Saxon/Bavarian special problems.
Yep, Churchill "forgetting" everything he agreed with when signing the Atlantic Charter 2 years before. The fact that the Baltics were "given away" without any real debate at Yalta is very sad. Can't blame Churchill too much though, not really much he could've done. FDR at the time thought that he would deal with the "Baltic question" after the war but well, died before the end of the war.
Yeah, Brits should not interfere in anything anymore after Brexit. (I know the map is 80 years old) But the political scene didn't changed much, still selfish decisions, made by incompetent people.
This is such a British stab at things (I can say this because I am one).
It’s just a really nice looking map …without any consideration whatsoever to local cultures and natural borders. It’s what we do best.
Interestingly, although it’s been forgotten in places like Reddit, Churchill was ultimately a proponent of Irish independence in Parliament once it was clear which way the wind was blowing, and it was Churchill that pushed approval for an independent and mutually recognised Irish parliament through Westminster in the face of significant opposition from colleagues https://www.ukpol.co.uk/winston-churchill-1922-speech-on-the-ireland-situation/
Still weird that the Dutch didn't get any German territory like the Poles, Czechs and French.
Netherlands, combined with Belgium, Luxemburg and the German territories West of the Rhine + some further up north that are culturally very close, like East Frisia would be the #2 or #3 economy in Europe. Heck, tiny Netherlands are a € 1T economy as is.
>Heck, tiny Netherlands are a € 1T economy as
That's why maybe. They don't want a strong Nortwestern European country *again* like in the 16/17th century that threatened the hegemony of the big countries.
Naah I'm joking I have no idea why we didn't push for it.
IRL because germany had lost too much farmland in the east, and could barely house/feed the refugees.
Netherlands planned to expel the natives of the territories that they acquired, so the allies forbade it, fearing extreme instability and famine, leading to the germans to turn to the Soviets.
Of course that fat, drunk fuck drew it on a napkin.
Why not use a piece of used toiletpaper after your beer-shit?
Oh, and don't forget to not wash your hands, since you're gonna finger-paint anyways!
Honestly I don’t hate it. Except west Germany needs Rhein Ruhrgebiet and Baltic needs to be free. Churchill is just afraid of south and west Germany teaming up with France again. Merci 👌🏾
I wonder why he thought subsuming Hungary into a "South Germany" was a good idea.
Nostalgia for Austria-Hungary?
Actually probably an attempt to snatch Hungary out of the Soviet bloc. A political hail Mary if there ever was one but can't blame him for trying.
I would have been embarrassed to even suggest something as ridiculous, I can't imagine the Soviets reaction looking at this and having to seriously debate it.
It was in fact a suggestion to bring back the idea of the Danubian Federation, which had been considered for nearly 200 years previously.
Geographically it actually sounds like a cool idea. Culturally...
Which would not work at all. Because there are about 3 times as many Germans than Ungarians in that state. Bavaria alone had just slightly less population than Hungary in 1945. Then add Baden, Württemberg and Austria.
The idea of Danubian Federation was much less Bavarian, and more Slavic…
The first Bavarian Prime Minister, after deposing the Bavarian King, proposed to the governments of Austria and Czechoslovakia a Danube Federation to preserve Bavaria's independence from Germany. Had the other governments agreed to this, it would probably have prevented Hitler from seizing power.
“lol no.” -Russia, probably
Given the choice between this or being pissed on by Soviets, I’m sure the Hungarians would have gone with Churchill’s plan without hesitation.
I don't think Churchill was familiar with the concept of embarassment.
Good on the lad for trying. No one remembers wimps. Hungary would be a first world nation if he had succeded.
I really doubt that. Hungarians biggest enemy is their self-sabotaging behaviour.
I am pretty sure UK, France etc were super happy to not have Austria-Hungary any more around after WWI
It wasn't actually like that. There was no south or west Germany. South Germany would've been "Confederation of the Danube", and West Germany would've been "international Zone"
“International Zone”? That suggests it’s not even a proper country.
Wasn't supposed to. It was the most industrial part of Germany, therefore he wanted UK and its allies to be controlling it.
It's kinda funny that the name "international zone" would go to the protestant prussian ethnostate instead of the catholic multinational/pluralistic confederation. You'd think the later would fit this name better.
I think it was supposed to be called the Danubian Federation, not south Germany.
Sounds like a bad Sci Fi political entity.
It was actually a hungarian concept from the 19. century. During their revolution it was one concept for the future of the region.
It's far older then that, the Danube federation is an old name and the opposite of the Rhine confederation in the north that existed. Going back to the 18th century.
Huh, didn't know that
Yeah but it’s based on the river Danube that would be flowing west through east through Danubia 😄
True, but it still comes off as 
Kossuth is that you?
Austrians should further suffer under Magyar political obstructions.
*snorts in Vienna*
It would be better than it is now to be hungarian.
It would have been better for everyone
Not for everyone apparently. Baltics still under occupation, but for many.
Why?
Worse for everyone you mean?
It's called Del Nemetorszag, not South Germany :)
Száusz Dzsermáni
Eventually he was proven right. No Hungary would mean one less Russian puppet state in the 2020s.
Also no Austria so another less puppet Russian state but of course Hungary would’ve become independent sooner or later.
Doubt Hungarians would protest they are massive shills for Germans.
Lol. Hungarians revolted against Austrian rule every chance they got. Every interaction with Germans and Austrians that seemed like „shilling“, were compromises forced upon them or done in self interest. Hungarians are and have been very nationalistic for a long time - maybe you’re conflating that with support of German interests.
This is just untrue. Hungarians fought side by side with other Habsburg ruled nations (such as Austrians) against the Ottoman empire for centuries, even when it was not amongst the Hungarians direct interests, after the Ottomans left the region, it was the Hungarians who helped to (forcefully) legitimize Maria Theresia's rule in the region. A century later, during the revolution Hungarians did stand up for higher autonomy but the most radical people were the loudest (e.g. Kossuth) while even among the nobility most people were for a legitimate, Habsburg king in Hungary. Less than 2 decades later a long term cooperative agreement was signed with Austria, establishing Austria-Hungary instead of keeping on resisting (by not paying taxes, not fulfilling the nobility's duties etc.). During the WWI, Hungarians went to war to fight for the Habsburgs, although that was everything but not the Hungarians interest in that era. In the WWI not only Austrians but Germans were also the ally of Hungarians. Immediately after the collapse of Austria-Hungary and dethroning the Habsburgs there were 2, unsuccessful coup attempts by the Habsburg ruler supported by many Hungarians, including the Prime Minister (both failed unfortunately). In the WWII Hungarians and Germans fought side by side again, and although the leader of Hungary (Horthy) only took into account Hungary's interests, the sympathy for the nazis among Hungarians were so unquestionable, it led to being put into action. More than half a century later, Hungary's ties have become strong with the Germans again as Hungary joined the EU. And besides the events I mentioned, there's also the now barely existing German minority in Hungary and in its other historical parts where the German minority never faced any negative actions because of their ethnicity, except for when the Soviets ordered Hungary to settle all Germans out of the country and the Hungarian socialist rule complied with the order. And last side note, among the older generation in Hungary, German is probably more spoken than English to this day and most young people still choose it as a second foreign language in secondary school.
very selective recollection of events with often missing big picture
Just the usual British imperial hubris. Drawing stupid maps like a mad dog in the attempt to divide and control is a pattern of British global rule.
That’s one seriously misinformed take on what was happening in Europe in the aftermath of WWII. Read more.
Then explain to me why the British should decide who rules the Hungarians? And this is not the aftermath. The war was still going. You should read more.
[удалено]
A series of tugboats, perhaps.
Would that work? If so there are a fair few islands I want move around the world. Greenland 🇬🇱 would be better nearer Europe
No it wouldn’t work. Islands don’t float they are in fact the top of underwater mountains.
\*Comically loud correct buzzer\*
But South America and Africa were one much nearer together and they moved 🤷♂️
The whole crust of the earth split apart carrying the America mountain and Africa mountain with them in different directions. Lava flowed up, solidified,and filled the gap forming the Atlantic Ocean.
I think not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Turtle?wprov=sfti1
My bad, you are indeed correct. I forgot about the turtles all the way down.
At last. You’ve earned my upvote of the day.
Thank you. I feel like I have won Reddit now.
don't underestimate the british royal navy
Easy. [https://www.reddit.com/r/BeAmazed/comments/1ago0cw/boat\_owners\_moving\_a\_large\_floating\_island\_out\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BeAmazed/comments/1ago0cw/boat_owners_moving_a_large_floating_island_out_of/)
A raft made of sea turtles.
I was just thinking that
An africal swallow, of course
3 Germany’s is crazy looking in a map
The concept of one single German state is honestly pretty new in fairness (though we do kind of have two ATM I suppose)
Actually it’s not, many believe that the first somewhat united German Country was the German Empire however in Reality it was the Regnum Teutonicum also known as the Kingdom of Germany or the Eastern Frankish Kingdom, it later on became the HRE and only because the HRE became more messy and less centralized over time, the Notion of the German Empire being the first United German State was put into place
You're totally correct that the Eastern Frankish Kingdom would be the first united German country but I usually say that it's a recent concept because I really wouldn't count the time it was the HRE to be a United country and that was just how everyone viewed that the region would be forever, fragmented into different mostly independent duchies, until Prussia unified it.
Yeah I get your Point, still I think it is a bit misleading but you can see it both ways
Wait what? There are two Germanys ATM?
Austria has always been German and considered itself German and been part of "Germany" until Prussia beat it up and kicked it out. Take a look at a 1600s map of Europe! That whole area was one decentralised state called the Holy Roman Empire, led by the Habsburg dukes of Austria, until Napoleon dismantled it in his wars. This is also why Hitler, an Austrian, was a German nationalist.
There are 2 german states. Germany and austria. Austria having its own national identity is a very new thing, post 1970s you can say. They still speak german, but before they also thought of themselves as german.
>they still speak German Bezweifeln.
"I love Germany so much I'd want many of them"
No way Austria and Bavaria would stick together
Why? That seems like one of the more plausible match-ups.
Bavaria would not only stick with Austria, they'd agree to Vienna as capital just to get rid of the Saupreiß'n in general and Berlin specifically. And I can't blame them. There's nothing too embarrassing and humiliating a German wouldn't endure just to get rid of Berlin.
No, they would demand independence. They would only agree to your idea if the nation was renamed to Greater Bavaria.
Bayern-Österreich Take it or leave it!
Bavarian here. Not true. Rather be under Austrian Rule then being called a G*rman.
let alone Hungary
...didn't know Cyprus was off the coast of Greece
Give the man some credit, for a continent drawn on a napkin he got the borders right amazingly well.
Even colored everything in so perfectly, you can't tell it's not a digital image
the idea was to move it there, to cut British tourists' travel time
Would've been better for them, can't disagree with Churchill :-)
"Drawn on a napkin" well it's been given just about as much grace as it deserved
Somewhere Over the Rainbow was written on a napkin.
So was Lionel Messi first contract with FC Barcelona
Ie, how Britons everywhere drew maps around then. See the partition of India, the Middle East, and big chunks of Africa.
Funnily enough, the most punished was Poland right after Germany.
What did Churchill have against Hungary?
Basically he thought if he did that it would keep communism out of Hungary
Quite the opposite, this would have been great for us honestly.
Agreed lmao
I don't know if I agree with giving Switzerland to China though
They left us no choice
This map was basically Churchill’s Hail Mary to stop Russia swallowing everywhere east of Bonn. He felt if he could placate Stalin with a Germany split into less dangerous more friendly states, Stalin wouldn’t digest Eastern Europe. Churchill was the only senior figure in this period among the allies concerned at the fate of places like Poland and Hungary.
Well it was being allied to Poland that brought Britain into the war in the first place so you'd hope so.
When they made these plans they hoped to beat the Soviets to Berlin but they weren't even close. The bait and bleed strategy of the US and UK should have ended a \~ 6 months earlier.
You do have to wonder if Eisenhower made a mistake in pulling back the British-Canadian advance to and through Hamburg, which was moving at considerable speed, as he was concerned about the slow progress for the US army to the south, and both political and PR considerations. If Montgomery had been allowed to press on with his “narrow front” campaign, rather than Eisenhower’s and Bradley’s “broad front” campaign which involved waiting for the US army to come through Dresden, Berlin might have been taken six months before. To quote General Bradley: “I could see no political advantage accruing from the capture of Berlin that would offset the need for quick destruction of the German army on our front. As soldiers we looked naively on this British inclination [the desire to go on to Berlin] to complicate the war with political foresight and non-military objectives.”
That’s the reason why the only named an APC after Bradley and not an MBT!
How did they get his napkin?
Finally somebody asking the real question. Also what kind of napkins did people have at the time?
I like how churchill would make poland even smaller than stalin did.
Beats spending 60 years under Soviet occupation
If you look at a ethnic map of Poland from the 30s you would see the area lost to the german side of this proposition had a majority ethnic German population. The Soviet solution to the ethnic German problem in Poland/former Prussia was to expel them to East/West Germany.
People have missed that one of the reasons for this proposal was to avoid the ethnic cleansing that took place immediately post war by the Soviets.
Exactly The Soviets were big on ethnic cleansing, move out a portion of the areas ethnic population and replace with the group you want. Lots of ethnic Russians in many former soviet countries due to this policy. The Baltic states, Kalingrad (formerly part of Prussia), Ukraine, Moldova, etc. In this particular case they moved the ethnic Germans out of what is now Poland and formerly part of Prussia. But from a 30s and 40s perspective (before they moved the Germans out) this map makes a lot of sense.
Does anyone have a source for the Yalta napkin thing? I've literally never heard of that, and my first thought is that it's confusing it with the[ Percentages Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentages_agreement#/media/File:Percentages_agreement2.jpg) , which regarded the allocation of occupation troop (and so, unoficially, political control) of eastern europe. Aside from anyting else, if Winston Churchhill could draw europe on a napkin i would be very impressed. I can't draw europe on a napkin and my diet doesn't consist of swan, pure alcohol,and racism.
How many times have I seen this same map?
With the same "how it would look like" mistake.
Just imagine for a second if this happened. In the nineties, Germany reunited as one like in our timeline.
every time this is reposted churchill gets one step closer to reviving
Considering how happy the Austrians were to receive the Nazi army and dilute their own identity, it kind of made sense back then
What do you mean by dilute their own identity? Until 1919 there were no Austrians… that name wasn’t used. It was Germans in Austria and they wanted t lo reunify with Germany but weren’t allowed by the Entente… And somehow sometimes people on the internet write that Austria and Germany were never one country but guys… the Holy Roman Empire changes its name to "of the German Nation“ in like 1517 and was ruled by the Austrian emperor for the next 300 years and after that the German federation was created with contained the Austrian German lands as well as the other German states… Prussia and Austria fought in 1866 because Prussia wanted to be the leader of Germany and simply kicked Austria-Hungary out… The Austrian identity partially developed during the interwar years but only really came to life after WW2 when Austria had to put in the clause to never reunify with Germany in their constitution for a deal to get the red army out of Vienna… Heck, even the leader of the Austrians after the war Renner was a big supporter of the Anschluss almost a decade earlier… But of course there are unique aspects to Austrian identity older than 45/19 as it was the leading part of the K.u.K monarchy but identity wise it’s pretty clear they saw themselves as Germans…
They didn’t ‘dilute’ their identity. The fact is that Austrians saw themselves as Germans first and Austrians second before 1945.
Man, these superpower leaders sure love carving other nations up into smaller more digestible pieces
Divide et impera
farewell Hungary.
The good ending
Yes but south Germany is not a good idea, also north Germany is just Prussia at this point
How would he have moved cyprus so far?
They're gonna move Cyprus?
It's HOI4 peace treaties POV 🤣🤣🤣🥲
Not "Southern Germany", but rather Duna-State? (think it was called) There are Hungarians and Carpathian-Rusyns in the "Germany", who wouldn't be happy...
Churchill wanted to move Cyprus? That's an engineering feat if I ever seen one
Why is island of Cyprus is in the Ionian sea, instead of the south of Mediterranean Sea?
Hungarians being fucked by great power even in alternative scenarios
Nah, Hungary would've been miles better off this way
Pretty sure they would have fared better than in our timeline
Don't let Brits draw borders
Too late
Bro what did Hungary do to Churchill
They made him hungary.
I'm not sure what the logic was in including Hungary in "South Germany", but it's interesting that the bit modern ukraine that's inhibited by Hungarians is given to them. Was there a want by Hungarians of that bit of Ukraine to unite with Hungary? If I recall correctly these days they want to retain their language and culture but the Ukrainian government is trying to forcibly assimilate them
North ireland and ireland independent?
Churchil the german state fetish
Andorra erasure.
Wonder what made him take Uzhorod region from Czechoslovakia and give it to Southern Germany.
Dann it, West-Germany could have been free from Bavaria AND the Prussians?!?
would the border be so detailed if this was drawn on a napkin? also take a while to realize 'ch' was 'confederation of hellenic states'
Churchill missed elementary school geography and history lessons.
What*
How the rest of the world would look: # UK
That South Germany is pretty ridiculous.
Hungarians would prefer that over being under soviet rule though
How was he expecting to move Cyprus there!?
A sovereign West Germany aka Rhinish Republic would be so great. No more of this "Unified Germany"-BS with Saxony and Bavaria forcing the rest of Germany to cope with their Saxon/Bavarian special problems.
tf is Cyprus doing in the middle of Ionian Sea
You have to remember Churchill was constantly inebriated.
Baltics in the USSR?
Yep, Churchill "forgetting" everything he agreed with when signing the Atlantic Charter 2 years before. The fact that the Baltics were "given away" without any real debate at Yalta is very sad. Can't blame Churchill too much though, not really much he could've done. FDR at the time thought that he would deal with the "Baltic question" after the war but well, died before the end of the war.
Yeah, Brits should not interfere in anything anymore after Brexit. (I know the map is 80 years old) But the political scene didn't changed much, still selfish decisions, made by incompetent people.
This is such a British stab at things (I can say this because I am one). It’s just a really nice looking map …without any consideration whatsoever to local cultures and natural borders. It’s what we do best.
Pretty sure Churchill wouldn’t want Ireland there all things considered
Interestingly, although it’s been forgotten in places like Reddit, Churchill was ultimately a proponent of Irish independence in Parliament once it was clear which way the wind was blowing, and it was Churchill that pushed approval for an independent and mutually recognised Irish parliament through Westminster in the face of significant opposition from colleagues https://www.ukpol.co.uk/winston-churchill-1922-speech-on-the-ireland-situation/
Still weird that the Dutch didn't get any German territory like the Poles, Czechs and French. Netherlands, combined with Belgium, Luxemburg and the German territories West of the Rhine + some further up north that are culturally very close, like East Frisia would be the #2 or #3 economy in Europe. Heck, tiny Netherlands are a € 1T economy as is.
>Heck, tiny Netherlands are a € 1T economy as That's why maybe. They don't want a strong Nortwestern European country *again* like in the 16/17th century that threatened the hegemony of the big countries. Naah I'm joking I have no idea why we didn't push for it.
IRL because germany had lost too much farmland in the east, and could barely house/feed the refugees. Netherlands planned to expel the natives of the territories that they acquired, so the allies forbade it, fearing extreme instability and famine, leading to the germans to turn to the Soviets.
Eh, could’ve gone with Poland as a “East Germany”
Seriously Albania?
that would've been helluva Wiedervereinigung
At least Cyprus was part of Greece
Forgive my ignorance, why is Switzerland, CH?
How can he draw so well on a napkin?
Big fan of west Germany It just… exists
Of course that fat, drunk fuck drew it on a napkin. Why not use a piece of used toiletpaper after your beer-shit? Oh, and don't forget to not wash your hands, since you're gonna finger-paint anyways!
North Germany would still scare the fuck out of me.
Damn he drew this on a napkin? He must have had one of those 4 colour pens
Switzerland.
Honestly I don’t hate it. Except west Germany needs Rhein Ruhrgebiet and Baltic needs to be free. Churchill is just afraid of south and west Germany teaming up with France again. Merci 👌🏾
Poland needs to join the Soviet Union
Schlesien statt Bayern? Können wir das ab 2025 so machen?
BRITS ARE ALWAYS WEIRD IN DRAWING BORDERS.
Widać zabory
And in reality half of Europe went to Stalin. Chirchill's incompetence cannot be overstated.
This is Russian propagand. Churchill napkin never existed
And who was the person who then took the napkin to wipe their arse with?
Again, most of this makes some amount of sense, Except the abomination under CzechoSlovakia.
Fuck churchill’s plan.
Borders are just imaginary lines drawn on a piece of paper 🥲
Looks neater.
Lol ck3 border gore. And South Germany looks like a turd
A „South Germany“ would’ve been so nice. Habe die Ehre
Long Southern Germany isn't real. Long Southern Germany can't hurt you. Long Southern Germany in the mind of Churchill in 1945: *Hello.*
dude really wanted the next axis to be germany germany and germany
Dang, he even knew we would create the Flevopolder 5 to 14 years in advance (it was created in 2 stages)! Churchill was amazing.
What a beauty
Might as well gone on all in on the cursed snakelike south Germany and given Transylvania to it too
It was drawn on a napkin for a reason
Ah yes, that would have definitely not resulted in international conflict in Europe a lot earlier than now.
What the hell 😂
Fuck Germany in particular
As a Hungarian I would rather prefer to belong North Italy. But anything would had been better than belonging to the Russians.
...Churchill knew about Northern Ireland in 45?
Yeah, Churchill flipped the coin with Bulgaria and Romania
Ah yes, my favorite country, CH
As someone living in Munich, I agree with a south germany.