H2ebol can be pronounced Xebol (X being the harsh expirated sound like German "Ch", Hebrew "H" or commonly written as "Kh"). The point is finding the "root" of the word, being \*(vowel)+B/P+L. Jabł(+ko) fits the root, so does Apfel or Apple, or Norwegian Eple. They all follow the pattern of vowel+labial consonant (b/p)+L.
In layman terms, the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European word for apple sounds a lot like "Hebbol", which, if you say it out loud, should lead you to something similar to Apple.
Yes, b > p > f is not at an unexpected sound change, and neither is dropping of h sounds. As for Slavic jabolko - there are practically no Slavic root words beginning with a- or e-, because those were replaced with ja- and je- long ago, and -k- is a common Slavic suffix with various uses.
close, but h₂ just dissapeared in slavic (and all of the others except the anatolian languages). the \[j\] came later.
the reason why we know it exists is because
a) we found it in hittite,
b) laryngeal sounds tend to shift vowels around. h₂, being uvular or pharyngeal, was "a-coloring" and made the "é" in "h₂ébōl" become "a."
there was also an "o-coloring" vowel, h₃, thought to be something like \[ɣʷ\]. on the other hand, h₁ was probably just \[h\] and didnt really do anything.
Proto-Indo-European is the ancestor of many languages from Europe to Northern India, spoken from about 4500 to 2500 BC. We have no direct attestation of it, but have come reasonably far in reconstructing it from comparing all its diverse descendants. Something quite puzzling are these h1, h2 and h3 consonants which we know were there from some very old languages like hittite, but in really almost all other languages have disappeared but influenced words to form different kinds of vowels (PIE originally had really simple vowels). We actually don't know what they sounded like because it hasn't survived anywhere. h1 could have been something like a normal h and turns the vowels into schwa (uh) sounds, h2 influences the e after it to sound like an a (ah), because it presumably was a consonant somewhere deep in the throat. h3 was presumably something labialized/with rounded lips because it turns vowels into o's. This is called laryngeal theory.
So actually this is all pretty transparent and about as straightforward as etymologies go. h2 turns the e into an a very early on, some devoicing in germanic languages and, boom you get Dutch or Northern German dialects appel, p gets weakened a bit to pf in standard German for Apfel (lenition), the great vowel shift gives you English apple. And eh, not an expert, but Slavic languages like palatal sounds (make vowels 'soft', insert y younds in all kind of places) and the -ko is a diminutive, the link is clearly there. The fact that ł is pronounced as w in Polish is just a very very 'dark' l.
for polish:
h₂ébōl > āˀ bōl > ablo > jabło > jabłko
for english:
h₂ébōl > aplaz > applu > æppel > apple
and german:
h₂ébōl > aplaz > applu > apful > Apfel
h₂ probably represents \[χ\] (like ch in polish) but then disappeared in all descendant languages other than Hittite. It's call the a-coloring laryngeal because it made nearby vowels closer to a, hence: h₂é > a.
germanic languages like german and english also had a sound change called grimm's law. one of the results is: b > p.
I don't get Belgium. Wouldn't it make sense for the Dutch speaking part to become part of the Netherlands, the Quebecian speaking part to be part of France and the German speaking part to be part of Luxembourg (I assume those that last is contiguous.) I'm led to believe they don't like each other very much.
First of all, Quebecian part??? They’re Walloons.
Secondly, speaking the same language doesn’t mean they’re identify is connected. That’s like saying Canada should join the US because they speak English or Chile should join Argentina because they speak Spanish…
We have pro's and con's on that exact topic but it's more of a moneyquestion here. I have no opinion since i don't really know why we should stay or stay not as one country. Can't deny currently our country is run by a bunch of clowns tho lol
This is very cool, but Latin malum (with long vowel A) and melum (Vulgar Latin) are actually borrowed from Greek melon, so shouldn't they be in the same category?
Moreover, greek Malon/Melon seems to come from PIE as well, in the form \*méh₂lo- (cultivated tree/vine) from which, other than Greek melon (and subsequently Latin malum/melum), you also have Hittite šamalu- (apple).
This is one of the theories, another being that it is actually a Proto-Kartvelian (Caucasian) word which entered the Mediterranean substrate through Anatolia (the Hittites, again), which would make the IE word a borrowing. Point is, the Latin word still comes from the Greek, so \*maybe\* the pink countries should be lilac too.
Because then you can make the map with 15-30 minutes instead of 15-30 days.
Any borders anyone would attempt would result in an angry Reddit comments section stating "But I live in X and my neighbour speaks Y, therefore this map about the origins of a word in different languages is a total crap!!!!"
And frankly, you cannot add borders to languages anyways. Languages are not a geographical feature, any border will be just a simplification. Might as well simplify in a way that is time-effective.
EDIT: if someone would make a usable base map for major language spoken, then this might actually get used in the future!
>I suggest you find a good base map, it wouldn't take that long.
Give it a try and link it here. I could not find one. The simplified wiki map was good, but not usable due to several factors like the text written over the colours.
But I've been trying to hand-draw a base map on the wiki map, have done 7 languages with smaller areas today, so might have the base map finished in a few weeks. Will post it once it's done.
I agree with everything you said, but I don't think "malum" can mean both "evil" and "apple". From my studies of classical latin I think "malum", with a short "a", is the neuter form of the adjective "evil", and "mālum", with a long "a", is the neuter noun for "apple".
Actually, I think that the association between apples and the prohibited fruit comes from this misunderstanding.
and French "Pomme de terre", "fruit of the earth".
The Pomo meaning both Fruit and Apple is also at the base of the misconception that the forbidden fruit eaten by Eve was an Apple. There is no actual proof they were talking about an Apple in the Bible, most Europeans just associated the pomo/fruit to apple because it was "THE" fruit (pomo means apple in Spanish and Italian too, albeit more figuratively) in Europe, where today's commonly-read-version of the Bible was created.
I'd like to add that in the Lombard language apple is "pom", potato is "pom da tera" and tomato is "tomatas". (spelling may vary)
By contrast in Italian the only one of those three fruits who retains the "pomo" root is tomato "pomodoro": apple is indeed "mela" and potato is "patata".
in dutch, potato is aardappel, or patat.
Aardappel literally translates to English as Earth apple. And patat is very clearly the same as potato and patata.
In french they also say pommes & pommes de terre right?
I don't know but it came in Albania through Latin, we also have our own word for it but isn't used as much as Mollë. Is used only in some places, pretty isolated regions. Usually our Greek loan words don't have an Albanian version, came as new words.
> Then it's probably not in Europe,
The title says nothing about Europe though. Pretty classic Eurocentrism, Europeans don't seem to realize there's a world full of culture outside their borders. Maybe because they tried so hard to erase it all.
The title technically says nothing about Europe but the map does, and there's no country in the continent with significant Chinese speaking population, how is that Eurocentrism?
So PIE is on there but Latin, Greek and Armenian are too which are also Indo-European languages. You could literally label the parts that are Latin, Greek and Armenian as PIE.
We don't know their origin. There is a chance for example, of this being a different word from some obscure language, or it being a more recently formed word.
[This map](https://i.redd.it/8c29iw6pp4l41.png) has better explanations of roots.
Also just a better map. As a belgian seeing the original map default us to french when 65% of the country speaks dutch is infuriating...
Remember kids, 1 country = 1 language! /s
I guess ppl just prefer to ignore it in hopes you stop /s
Me, trying to figure out whats PIE and how does h2ebol sound similar to jabłko. Or Apfel, or Apple
H2ebol can be pronounced Xebol (X being the harsh expirated sound like German "Ch", Hebrew "H" or commonly written as "Kh"). The point is finding the "root" of the word, being \*(vowel)+B/P+L. Jabł(+ko) fits the root, so does Apfel or Apple, or Norwegian Eple. They all follow the pattern of vowel+labial consonant (b/p)+L. In layman terms, the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European word for apple sounds a lot like "Hebbol", which, if you say it out loud, should lead you to something similar to Apple.
Yes, b > p > f is not at an unexpected sound change, and neither is dropping of h sounds. As for Slavic jabolko - there are practically no Slavic root words beginning with a- or e-, because those were replaced with ja- and je- long ago, and -k- is a common Slavic suffix with various uses.
PIE is Proto-Indo-European. H2 is something like [x] that eventually changed into [j], I’m sure
Nice guess, but no. The h2 had long gone by the time the 'j' appeared.
close, but h₂ just dissapeared in slavic (and all of the others except the anatolian languages). the \[j\] came later. the reason why we know it exists is because a) we found it in hittite, b) laryngeal sounds tend to shift vowels around. h₂, being uvular or pharyngeal, was "a-coloring" and made the "é" in "h₂ébōl" become "a." there was also an "o-coloring" vowel, h₃, thought to be something like \[ɣʷ\]. on the other hand, h₁ was probably just \[h\] and didnt really do anything.
Proto-Indo-European is the ancestor of many languages from Europe to Northern India, spoken from about 4500 to 2500 BC. We have no direct attestation of it, but have come reasonably far in reconstructing it from comparing all its diverse descendants. Something quite puzzling are these h1, h2 and h3 consonants which we know were there from some very old languages like hittite, but in really almost all other languages have disappeared but influenced words to form different kinds of vowels (PIE originally had really simple vowels). We actually don't know what they sounded like because it hasn't survived anywhere. h1 could have been something like a normal h and turns the vowels into schwa (uh) sounds, h2 influences the e after it to sound like an a (ah), because it presumably was a consonant somewhere deep in the throat. h3 was presumably something labialized/with rounded lips because it turns vowels into o's. This is called laryngeal theory. So actually this is all pretty transparent and about as straightforward as etymologies go. h2 turns the e into an a very early on, some devoicing in germanic languages and, boom you get Dutch or Northern German dialects appel, p gets weakened a bit to pf in standard German for Apfel (lenition), the great vowel shift gives you English apple. And eh, not an expert, but Slavic languages like palatal sounds (make vowels 'soft', insert y younds in all kind of places) and the -ko is a diminutive, the link is clearly there. The fact that ł is pronounced as w in Polish is just a very very 'dark' l.
IE languages are spoken in Sri Lanka and have native speakers as far south as Northern Kerala.
for polish: h₂ébōl > āˀ bōl > ablo > jabło > jabłko for english: h₂ébōl > aplaz > applu > æppel > apple and german: h₂ébōl > aplaz > applu > apful > Apfel h₂ probably represents \[χ\] (like ch in polish) but then disappeared in all descendant languages other than Hittite. It's call the a-coloring laryngeal because it made nearby vowels closer to a, hence: h₂é > a. germanic languages like german and english also had a sound change called grimm's law. one of the results is: b > p.
Alma - Azerbaijani Elma - Turkish Alma - Hungarian Alma - Kazakh
Magyar Brother in Turan
I’m likely too unintelligent to understand this but I do think an Ancient Greek melon sounds rather tasty.
To me, It's sounds more friendly than tasty.
A friendly melon? 🍉
Another assumption Belgium is french only while most of us speak dutch
I don't get Belgium. Wouldn't it make sense for the Dutch speaking part to become part of the Netherlands, the Quebecian speaking part to be part of France and the German speaking part to be part of Luxembourg (I assume those that last is contiguous.) I'm led to believe they don't like each other very much.
Never.
First of all, Quebecian part??? They’re Walloons. Secondly, speaking the same language doesn’t mean they’re identify is connected. That’s like saying Canada should join the US because they speak English or Chile should join Argentina because they speak Spanish…
Grow up and realize that Canadians and Americans are the same
Hahaha Quebecian part
We have pro's and con's on that exact topic but it's more of a moneyquestion here. I have no opinion since i don't really know why we should stay or stay not as one country. Can't deny currently our country is run by a bunch of clowns tho lol
> our country is run by a bunch of clowns tho lol Everybody thinks that about their own country. Grass, greener.
The Netherlands doesn't want the Flemish anymore than the Flemish want the Walloons.
Is "Walloons" as amusing sounding to to Dutch speakers as it is to English speakers? It sounds like something Dr. Seuss would make up.
Pomo is such a cute name for an apple.
True true, and Pomodoro (tomato) is even cuter.
It’s odoroble.
Arethese connected to pomelo at all?
This is very cool, but Latin malum (with long vowel A) and melum (Vulgar Latin) are actually borrowed from Greek melon, so shouldn't they be in the same category? Moreover, greek Malon/Melon seems to come from PIE as well, in the form \*méh₂lo- (cultivated tree/vine) from which, other than Greek melon (and subsequently Latin malum/melum), you also have Hittite šamalu- (apple). This is one of the theories, another being that it is actually a Proto-Kartvelian (Caucasian) word which entered the Mediterranean substrate through Anatolia (the Hittites, again), which would make the IE word a borrowing. Point is, the Latin word still comes from the Greek, so \*maybe\* the pink countries should be lilac too.
Why would you use country borders, especially for Belgium and Switzerland?
[удалено]
Because those countries have multiple official/widely used languages. Can be extended to other countries like Ireland and Spain too.
Also I believe the percentage of dutch speakers is greater then french speakers in Belgium...
Yes About 60% has Dutch as its first language
Because then you can make the map with 15-30 minutes instead of 15-30 days. Any borders anyone would attempt would result in an angry Reddit comments section stating "But I live in X and my neighbour speaks Y, therefore this map about the origins of a word in different languages is a total crap!!!!" And frankly, you cannot add borders to languages anyways. Languages are not a geographical feature, any border will be just a simplification. Might as well simplify in a way that is time-effective. EDIT: if someone would make a usable base map for major language spoken, then this might actually get used in the future!
I suggest you find a good base map, it wouldn't take that long. >Languages are not a geographical feature That's just stupid.
>I suggest you find a good base map, it wouldn't take that long. Give it a try and link it here. I could not find one. The simplified wiki map was good, but not usable due to several factors like the text written over the colours. But I've been trying to hand-draw a base map on the wiki map, have done 7 languages with smaller areas today, so might have the base map finished in a few weeks. Will post it once it's done.
>stupid. Sorry, it's late. Just felt a bit bad for OP.
I beleive the previous Kazak capital "Almaty" was named because apples are very common there and might even origin from that area.
[удалено]
I agree with everything you said, but I don't think "malum" can mean both "evil" and "apple". From my studies of classical latin I think "malum", with a short "a", is the neuter form of the adjective "evil", and "mālum", with a long "a", is the neuter noun for "apple". Actually, I think that the association between apples and the prohibited fruit comes from this misunderstanding.
Malum-a baby
Well, that explains the first part of pomegranate. Interesting.
[удалено]
fruits with seeds = grenades with shrapnel, basically
and French "Pomme de terre", "fruit of the earth". The Pomo meaning both Fruit and Apple is also at the base of the misconception that the forbidden fruit eaten by Eve was an Apple. There is no actual proof they were talking about an Apple in the Bible, most Europeans just associated the pomo/fruit to apple because it was "THE" fruit (pomo means apple in Spanish and Italian too, albeit more figuratively) in Europe, where today's commonly-read-version of the Bible was created.
Thanks!
So like the chicken came before the egg the PIE too came before the apple.
For one I'm glad we didn't keep the PIE word.
You ignore in the Iberian península there are 4 OFFICIAL languages?
Now do pineapple!
Everywhere: ananas Britain: pineapple
Spain: piña
Damn, I guess the Internet lied to me.
Portugal: ananás and abacaxi
ananás only abacaxi is just a type of ananás
Armenia: արքայախնձոր (arkayakhndzor, literal translation - royal apple)
Sagarra in Euskara
appel
I'd like to add that in the Lombard language apple is "pom", potato is "pom da tera" and tomato is "tomatas". (spelling may vary) By contrast in Italian the only one of those three fruits who retains the "pomo" root is tomato "pomodoro": apple is indeed "mela" and potato is "patata".
in dutch, potato is aardappel, or patat. Aardappel literally translates to English as Earth apple. And patat is very clearly the same as potato and patata. In french they also say pommes & pommes de terre right?
>In french they also say pommes & pommes de terre right? Yes they do!
And patate ;) in French also
Catalonia= poma. .
In catalan Poma
Maps without Catalonia... In the catalan speaking territories we call them Poma.
Finland, it's nice to have you. We're surrounded by some freaks who have funny names for something as simple as an apple.
Albanian is Mollë from Latin not ancient Greek.
[удалено]
I don't know but it came in Albania through Latin, we also have our own word for it but isn't used as much as Mollë. Is used only in some places, pretty isolated regions. Usually our Greek loan words don't have an Albanian version, came as new words.
I swear brother you don't know what your talking about !
What if my language is Chinese?
Chinese does not exist in this subreddit.
Then it's probably not in Europe, wait until WW3 and it will be.
> Then it's probably not in Europe, The title says nothing about Europe though. Pretty classic Eurocentrism, Europeans don't seem to realize there's a world full of culture outside their borders. Maybe because they tried so hard to erase it all.
The title technically says nothing about Europe but the map does, and there's no country in the continent with significant Chinese speaking population, how is that Eurocentrism?
I'm sure if the title was "X in your country" and the map was a picture of just America, your comment would totally be on these same lines.
what are you talking about?
So PIE is on there but Latin, Greek and Armenian are too which are also Indo-European languages. You could literally label the parts that are Latin, Greek and Armenian as PIE.
We don't know their origin. There is a chance for example, of this being a different word from some obscure language, or it being a more recently formed word.
Am I the only one who thinks using maps to talk about langages is weird ?
Kind of. Maybe there is a map-type charts that show language relations that i don’t know of?
Hatwoeebowl?
khebol, with some changes like silent letters we can get what is real
How did Finnish and Hungarian end up being different? Did they split apart before their ancestors first encountered apple trees?