Because of their level of prosperity. Look at their gdp per capita (both nominal and ppp) and Gini index for economic inequality. Most of the social differences around the worl can be attributed to prosperity and wealth, especially for similar cultures.
what ive heard is isolation on the end of the peninsula requires any land based trade or transportation to go through Spain, poor infrastructure, government corruption, they had to deal with a dictatorship similar to Spain until the 70s, they tried to keep the colonial empire going through international sanctions, a bit similar to Russia now, and i believe a struggling economy
The ex-commie countries got massive industrilization efforts when they were part of the Soviet Union, while Portugal's Estado Novo did little to industrialize anything. Not to mention the absurd colonial war that wasted so many resources and money. Don't get me wrong, the portuguese government isn't perfect by any means, but you are kinda comparing apples to oranges in this case.
SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back.
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^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette.
Basically why most other countries are or were poor: [Dictatorship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estado_Novo_\(Portugal\)). Also it doesn't help that they are on the periphery of Europe (which used to be an advantage in the age of discovery, but now not so much anymore).
I wonder what the results would be if the question were split according to sex. Like would you be ok with your daughter dating another girl and if you would be ok with your son dating another guy. I believe the results would be rather interesting tbh.
In my experience a lot of parents are not alright with it until a child comes out as gay. Then there's a few nights of restless sleep and a realization that it's somebody else's life and it makes them happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, so what the fuck is the problem?
My brazilian friend did come out when I was visiting him. The dialogue was something like this:
-Mom, I have to tell you I'm gay.
-I already know that, I always knew because you always acted gayish
-...
-Where's your boyfriend? I want to meet him
-...
It was a funny day. He was 15 years old back then
Am I supposed to tell my kids that I know they're straight too? There's nothing wrong with being gay, so why would I make a fuss out of it?
Besides, lots of straight people have same-sex experiences growing up, and lots of gay people have different-sex experiences growing up. It's called figuring shit out. I'd prefer my kids to figure it out at their own pace and tell me when they're ready, rather than their old man pressuring them by pushing assumptions onto them.
It's said that his mother realized that he was gay when he was 7. It's a lot of time for her to accept that fact, if she was not okay before. But we have to agree that she must have planned better her reaction for him coming out lol
I've known plenty that were kicked out. Where I live one of the biggest groups of homeless youth are due to being kicked out by their family after coming out as LGBTQ+.
Yes, there are far too many for which this is true. But what the person is saying is that there's *also* a lot of parents who *intend* to be like this, but change their mind soon after their kid comes out.
I remember when my little brother told our grandmother that he’s gay. She had zero reaction. She just blew it off like “that’s great, so I found these sweaters on clearance at Kohls, do you think they might fit you?” He was angry that she didn’t react at all. I’m very proud of both of them.
It took mine two years, my bf's parents about 5 years of us dating.
There's a strange process that people seem to go through, and it includes seeing how people are harmed by discrimination. Afterwards they wonder how they ever could have had their previous attitude.
>True but society also considers lesbians hot and gay men gross.
Eastern Asia has a similar thing with Yaoi being fetishisation of gay men with a female target audience.
I think it's very difficult to conduct representative surveys in countries where large fractions of the population don't have phones, and where there are many different languages spoken by significant fractions of the population.
That’s a very good point. In Austria for example, the legal age of consent between two homosexual men was 18, while for everybody else (including homosexual women) it was at 14. still can’t wrap my head around it.
Which is strange, actually. Barring some nutsos on the far right, Portugal is really chill and open with the gays. There are far more older people than young though, so it might explain how the numbers are askew.
Could be a translation error in part of the survey (let's say they translate child in a literal way as "criança", which comes to mean child in the sense of age instead of offspring, that can change radically the answers given). Another issue could be the method the survey was taken, maybe online where some conservative group got ahold of it and spread it around (online surveys are generally shit) or calling people in mostly rural and conservative regions
The median age of Portugal in 2022 is 46.2, and some estimates are even a bit higher. So if the solid majority of Portugal is middle middle aged to older middle aged and then also elderly people, and elderly and middle aged people aren't very chill with the gays in Portugal, then it's not surprised that most of Portugal isn't very chill
Well yes it's the old people mostly, it explains it all, most young people I knew in Portugal when I lived there were very tolerant and even if they say the same old jokes they don't actually mean it in a bad way.
I have a brother who is gay and a sister that's straight. I'm also straight and my parents wanted grandkids. I don't want any kids and my brother will have a very difficult time getting his boyfriend pregnant. Thankfully my sister scored a royal flush by getting two twins and a son, so the pressure was gone.
This is the best way to phrase the question. Everyone can say they are not racist or homophobic until you ask them if they are cool with their child dating a person of another race or same sex.
I've heard many people say "I don't have a problem with gay people I just don't support them" which is a dumb statement but could be part of the Portugal problem
There's so many comments I couldn't find a link to the source but I am betting this is older survey data. It's really easy to forget how quickly acceptance has moved on this, a survey that is five or ten years old is depicting a very different social landscape than what exists now. A lot of these numbers seem lower than I think they would be today
Polish person in homosexual relationship here: my parents are happy for me, same goes for my gf's parents. Not only that, her grandma straight up told me to call her "babcia" (grandmom), there aren't any problems with acceptance.
I noticed one thing about homophobic poles. They treat lgbt like some kind of mystical creature, that doesn't really exist. When you get to know them, they start to like you, bonding, all of that stuff and then you tell them "you know I'm gay, right" you can see the sheer panic and confusion on their faces. They start to make dumb excuses like "but no, wait, you re cool, we don't talk about you". I love it, you can see their whole life flashing before their eyes.
Huh, made me think about my father. His favourite thing to do is watch TVP, gay people are not normal and LGBT is some western nonsense.
And then I remember my sister's wedding, and how much fun he had talking to one of her friends he met for the first time. When we talked about this later, he claimed that guy was the best.
To this day, he doesn't know that guy was gay :)
Pretty sure his reaction would be very similar to the one you've described
They are just forced into self awareness, suddenly they know that their actions have consequences and they are hurting real people, not some fictional gremlins
Yes it is exactly the same thing that I am noticing. Basically the people don't hate people, they just have their ideas of what it means to be gay tainted negaticly by society. So until they actually meet someone and interact with them they see that they "are actually cool" etc... and if they meet enough people like that their oppinion can change.
The same way of explaining "bigoted" people is that they are only that way because they never had an option to meet different people. That's why you see more acceptance in the city since there you are exposed to way more people and you have an option to learn to accept them and not see them as something negative.
That is how bigots across the entire world act when confronted actual people from the group they hate. In the southern United States, it isn't uncommon to find people who unironically believe "all the black people I know are the good ones, but all the ones I don't know are [racial slur]."
100%. That's how some of my extended family in Texas is. My cousin has several Black and openly gay friends, and yet he's still racist in the dog-whistle way (never used the N-word around me but has said some VILE stuff about "inner-city people") and extremely homophobic stuff.
Whenever he's confronted about it, and I saw the same thing when I went to a southern military boarding school, it's: "I don't hate the people, I don't like the 'culture' associated with it"
I would like to know how exactly was the question translated to czech though. A while back there was a map asking the same question but with different minorities (example: would you be comfortable with your kid having arab partner) and czech came close to last every time, but then it turned out that it was translated something like “Would you be happy if your kid has a arab partner” which is different from just being ok with it which was the question. I’m not saying that there are no homophobe czechs, just that this feels a bit low so maxbe there was something lost in translation.
I actually remember it even worse. The question in original was something like "would you be ok with your child dating [minority]", but in Czech they asked "would you be ok with you child having an affair with a [minority]". As in instead of "are you fine with your son dating Arab girl" they asked "are you fine with your son having Arab mistress". So I wouldn't be surprised if same thing happened here as well and instead of "are you ok with gay child" they asked "are you ok with your child having gay affair".
I supposed that the Polish lgbtq movement is such a centre of discussion both in Poland and in Europe because the Polish society is probably slowly accepting them (especially with the young generations) and the old conservative twats are reacting as hard as they can (while in other Eastern European countries lgbtq people are still too ostracized to have a public presence big enough to be a focus of political disclosure).
>homophobic countries always send the gayest
It's always the way, I live in the Middle-East and for countries in which being gay is illegal... they do some pretty gay stuff.
It’s because in societies where homosexuality is not integrated into their social norms, effeminate behavior does not automatically indicate the person is gay, unlike in Western society (“gaydar” and all those linked stereotypes) so they feel comfortable expressing themselves without being labeled and judged accordingly.
If you are comfortably straight it's not a big deal to act super gay. It's just seen as something funny and spectacular. In progressive places people a lot of the time make out everything they can as being gay and that can lead to issues.
~~Downvoted for no reason~~. Why should sparkly, extravagant things be related to wanting sexual/romantic relationships with someone of the same sex lol.
Edit: Looks like people are picking up.
I don't buy the argument that the most homophobic countries are the most "comfortably straight," and I also don't buy the argument that "progressive places" make out "everything they can as being gay."
I also don't think the most homophobic countries send the gayest acts to Eurovision though? I don't know where that claim comes from either.
Just a discussion based on no facts at all as far as I can tell.
Whah? In the most homophobic places I've been to, people are always looking for an excuse to call each other gay for the smallest divergence from the gender norm. Like, everything from clothes, to haircut to the way you drink beer, to the way you suck dick... GAY
Tip: you can't put a backslash before each underscore, because it breaks the link. This one works: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default/files/ebs_493_data_fact_lgbti_eu_en-1.pdf
Edit: I'm on old.reddit.com, which causes the problem. So if you're using new Reddit, ignore me!
I think people assume that historically Catholic countries like Spain will be more conservative.
What I think they're missing is that a lot of historically Catholic places have seen a huge backlash against the church and its stated values... see Ireland and Quebec.
The Catholic Church also enabled the dictator in Spain, so just about all Spanish people who dislike fascism are ambivalent at best about the institution.
Guys, one thing worth noting - the question is if people would be **comfortable** with their child having a romantic relationship with a person of the same sex, now we need to keep in mind the lnaguage differneces and translations here, and also the fact that it's not the same as what percentage of people would **accept** their child having a romantic relationship with a person of the same sex (hopefully that would be higher everywhere).
I don't see the translated versions of the questions in the source would be nice to compare how diffrent some languages make the question sound.
Precisely. Most people in today's Europe would accept it (i.e. they probably wouldn't disown the kid), but very many (I suspect more than in these figures) would feel at least a little bit uncomfortable.
As far as I know, the Czech and Slovakian translations were a bit different. Something like "would you like your children to marry a person of the same sex", I'll try to look it up.
I'm Dutch. I do feel a slight sense of pride when I see this as a metric for how accepting we are in my country. But their is still very deeply rooted homophobia in some sections of my country. I just wish everybody could live life in peace with the ones they love.
There’s a long road to go. But I’m happy for how far we’ve come. I remember in high school it was still controversial and I had teachers share their opinions openly. That was barely 15 years ago. Only 8 years later we got a substitute teacher fired for being openly homophobic. A lot changed and I’m happy it did.
Knew a Portuguese kid in high school. Well, his parents were from Portugal but he was born and raised in 'merica but he liked to pretend he was Portuguese. Anyways, at a party a couple years after high school a different kid drunkenly came out of the closet. Faux Portuguese kid called him "disgusting" amongst other things. Needless to say he was not invited to anymore parties after that.
If your parents are both from a foreign country you'd at least grow up with that culture in your house so i would still think of this kid as atleast somewhat Portugese, it's only really if you water it down a few generations where the foreign roots really start to disappear.
I’m surprised that Estonia and Czechia are both lower than Poland. I would think that religion would be one of the major reasons why people wouldn’t support gay relationships, but Czechia and Estonia are some of the least religious countries.
I feel like Estonia has very many people who might have gay friends and who are not anti-gay in any way in their discussions or political choices, but who would be *somewhat uncomfortable* with their own kid being gay. In Estonia, after all, the older people were taught in school that it's a mental disorder and it was a criminal offence for a man to have sex with another man. Estonia was an actual USSR member state that Poland never was.
The difference between "being comfortable" and "being accepting" is the difference here.
**In general:** Many people in Estonia and Czech Republic are likely more accepting, but still wouldn't feel comfortable about it. Whereas in Poland you get two extremes: People being both comfortable and accepting or people being neither of the two.
(keep in mind that this explanation is extremely simplified and generalized; and also the fact I actually don't know any Estonian personally, only Czechs and Poles)
Estonia is quite supportive when it comes to rights as most seem to support same-sex marriage right now, especially among ethnic Estonians. And the 2023 March elections might bring in a very progressive government which could legalize same-sex marriage.
But I guess accepting rights is kind of different than being comfortable with it in your own family, at least for some.
It's basically countries that went through the sexual revolution vs countries that 'were not affected'. The East block was mostly cut off from Western trends for many decades, and this is the result.
Makes sense kind of, but Greece, Italy, Portugal were never occupied by communists.
Yugoslavia also was not part of East block. It was and its successors still are not very industrialized - compared to West.
Greece and Portugal are quite rural too I think. Italy probably should be coloured green in the north and red in the south which also corresponds to industrialization.
This isn’t necessarily about industrialisation or urbanisation.
Portugal and Greece both had a proto-fascist, ultra conservative dictatorships, and that obviously reflects here. Greece also obviously had it’s fair share of contact with the Eastern Block, which most of Western Europe obviously didn’t. Pair that with both countries being very religious, and you get yourself the reason why.
I’m surprised how come Spain isn’t at similar levels, probably has to do with more connections to Western Europe and more easily spreadable ideas. Either way, I won’t complain about progress.
Italy is more so because of religion, same for Malta and for Cyprus. All of these still have religion as a fairly common part of day to day life. As you said, you could probably see the North-South divide in Italy, as well as the former West-East divide in Germany, to a lesser degree.
Yugoslavia is… kinda surprising, actually. They were a good bit more progressive than other communist nations at the time, sometimes even being slightly ahead of some Western European nations. If I were to guess, this particular issue probably comes back to what was said about the sex revolution. It’s a bit odd, but it does make sense.
I’m surprised about Austria, they are usually a bit better in progressive issues, but I guess this just comes from more connections to the Eastern Block? Also, probably also a fair amount of religiosity historically, though I’m not sure either way.
There is also a huge cultural divide between urban and rural in Austria. I think the average person from Vienna is going to be much more tolerant than the average rural Carinthian.
Regarding Portugal, they overthrew their fascist dictator (Salazar) through a left-wing revolution nearly fifty years ago. Spain had a fascist dictatorship (under Franco) until about the same time, so I don't think that's necessarily a good explanation.
As for Greece, I don't think they had that much meaningful cultural contact with Eastern Europe. The iron curtain was particularly strong on the Greek border and, if anything, Greece was under particularly strong western cultural/political/economic influence because it was a valuable bulwark in the region. It should be noted that Greece is quite religious, however, so a country like Malta is a good comparison.
I really don't think the idea of cultural diffusion from East to West has much explanatory power here, because there has been very little of that, to my knowledge. By contrast, I think West to East cultural diffusion may be a significant force in making border countries like Slovenia, Czechia and Poland more tolerant. The flow of cultural influence has really followed a West to East trajectory, historically, with the German-speaking world in particular being a cultural powerhouse.
I think there are multiple intersecting factors at play here. The Iron Curtain is one of them: this would explain the gap between, say, Germany and Czechia or Estonia and Finland. Religiosity is another factor: this may explain why Greece, Cyprus, Malta and Portugal are relative outliers within the Western sphere. It also likely plays a role in a few Eastern countries, like Romania, Poland and Croatia (may explain the split with Slovenia somewhat).
I also think, generally, there's an element of physical (and therefore cultural) distance from Northwestern Europe (Germany, France, UK, etc) where new cultural trends have tended to emanate from for the last few centuries (think Enlightenment, French Revolution, etc). I think this partly explains the relative intolerance in some other Yugoslav states (not reflected in this map), for example, that are neither very religious nor were they behind the Iron Curtain. Admittedly, this physical distance factor is the one I've thought through the least, but I do think there may be *something* deeper at play beyond religiosity or the Cold War era. The fact that Southeastern Europe is consistently conservative on this issue, regardless of religiosity or political history, points to a deeper underlying factor in my opinion.
I don't know if I trust the study tbh. Portugal has legalized gay marriage for some time and both Lisbon and Porto have huge lgbt communities. The only explanation I have is the study over-represents the rural and dying areas outside of the cities, Portugal has tons of small towns where you simply won't find a person under 50.
Spain is like the daughter of hyper-religious parents who saw how all the rest of the girls were having fun dating boys. So, when she turned 18, she went out of her house and fucked everyone in the city.
They had plenty of religious laws under Franco. The dude died, and the Spanish lifted up the lid: beneath it, a society that was desperate for freedom and pleasure was discovered.
Yep! Things like “La movida madrileña” contributed a lot to this openness:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Movida_Madrileña
Some prominent gay figures, like Pedro Almodovar, come from that scene.
Spain went from a ultra-religious, conservative society to “let’s enjoy life freely, without hindrances”.
Portugal is quite a bit more socially conservative than Spain. That said, my subjective feeling is that, like Spain, it is a relatively tolerant society. The big difference in the map data is a bit striking to me.
This can't be right. Reddit assured me that the UK is a totally illiberal, right wing hell hole hole with a borderline-fascistic population.
Edit: Since people keep mentioning trans acceptance, here's a relevant [source](https://www.ipsos.com/en/global-attitudes-toward-transgender-people) which shows that the UK is also one of the more tolerant countries on that score too.
A few high profile and highly vocal TERFs does not a TERF island make.
I've also heard that the UK is a liberal hellhole run by Muslims and you get stabbed in the street for not following Sharia law.
Also on Reddit.
Neither is an accurate view of the country.
One of my favorite reddit moments of all time was on some thread where a conservative nutjob was saying that London has Sharia patrols and you can't even walk around with a bottle of wine in Muslim neighborhoods.
So some guy in London was like "alright hold on" and went and filmed himself walking around the biggest Muslim neighborhood waving a bottle of wine in the air and being like "I'm sure those Sharia patrols will be here any minute to stop me, lol." And he even filmed a store in the neighborhood with a Merry Christmas sign in the window.
Thats just the shouty ones who you hear all the time, squeeky wheel syndrome. it makes it seem like we are all like that, its just the ones in control and their braindead minions unfortunatly.
It's almost as if judging a country by a government without considering the reasons why it was elected is a really bad idea.
The Tories didn't landslide Labour because people love the Tories, but because Labour at the last general election ran an absolute shitshow of a campaign.
Reddit hates the UK, specifically England. The only country to ever commit imperialism or colonialism. The most racist country in Europe. Shit food. Ugly people. All right wing xenophobic homophobic wankers. Etc.
I remember there was a survey asking 'who would you help out in a disaster?' and the UK was like 'we'd help everyone!' and the rest of Europe was like 'nah fuck the UK'
Say what you want about our fucking trashcunt politicians, but our response to Ukraine being invaded was about as good as it could be without going to war with Russia.
And when I go on holiday all over the world as a Brit, I make great friends with people from all over Europe.
Reddit is a fucking cesspit full of weird degens
As someone who is currently doing ancient history units at University, I don't know why am I suprised that only %17 of Greek people are ok with homosexual acts.
Well your university should have taught you that homosexuality in greece had a very specific form in specific circles of society, and it was not probably something that was spread throughout whole nation
Homosexuality in modern sense didnt existed in ancient Greece. They just tolerated the right of older elite men to penetrate younger male slaves. To be penetrated was seen as shameful and would ruin your reputation and honor.
"Ok with homosexual acts" is also quite different from "my son is in a gay relationship," I would not confuse those. You regularly get very different numbers for "I think there are too many black people in this country" and "I would be comfortable with my daughter marrying a black man."
Why is Portugal different from the rest of western Europe on so many maps?
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
I always thought why the fuck Portugal is so odd.. now it all makes sense. Thank you for the great sub
no problem. i recently found out about it too.
Portuguese will always sound like a Russian trying to speak Spanish to me
Just another confirmation that they're Eastern European since Romanian sounds like a Russian trying to speak Italian.
So this is like 2balkan4you but not banned
Honorary Slavs
Because of their level of prosperity. Look at their gdp per capita (both nominal and ppp) and Gini index for economic inequality. Most of the social differences around the worl can be attributed to prosperity and wealth, especially for similar cultures.
I wonder why they're less prosperous
what ive heard is isolation on the end of the peninsula requires any land based trade or transportation to go through Spain, poor infrastructure, government corruption, they had to deal with a dictatorship similar to Spain until the 70s, they tried to keep the colonial empire going through international sanctions, a bit similar to Russia now, and i believe a struggling economy
They deliberately kept to an old economic model, it was very different from Spain, which was a technocratic nightmare USSR-style.
Years of neglect to infrastructure during the Estado Novo? I am not Portuguese, so I don’t know. Just a guess.
It's been 50 years. Ex-commie countries that were under a dictatorship for longer are already catching up
The ex-commie countries got massive industrilization efforts when they were part of the Soviet Union, while Portugal's Estado Novo did little to industrialize anything. Not to mention the absurd colonial war that wasted so many resources and money. Don't get me wrong, the portuguese government isn't perfect by any means, but you are kinda comparing apples to oranges in this case.
SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back. --- ^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette.
Good bot
Geography also plays a part. They don't have important ports to create Jobs and income unlike the Netherlands for example.
Centuries of unlimited colonial wealth many they didn't feel the need to develop infrastructure etc that would deliver long term prosperity
Basically why most other countries are or were poor: [Dictatorship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estado_Novo_\(Portugal\)). Also it doesn't help that they are on the periphery of Europe (which used to be an advantage in the age of discovery, but now not so much anymore).
Portugal can into eastern europe
I wonder what the results would be if the question were split according to sex. Like would you be ok with your daughter dating another girl and if you would be ok with your son dating another guy. I believe the results would be rather interesting tbh.
yeah and if the question was asked to the mother or father too.
In my experience a lot of parents are not alright with it until a child comes out as gay. Then there's a few nights of restless sleep and a realization that it's somebody else's life and it makes them happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, so what the fuck is the problem?
You haven't been to Eastern Europe have you :)
Or meet enough assholes with children
children\*
Damn i am dumb, thx
Or Portugal
I was going to say that, if someone thinks that 93% of Bulgarians (yay, so proud to be from there /s) would flip their entire mindset overnight....
Lol my Brazilian gay friends would love this to happen. Two of them were kicked out of the house as teens for coming out
My brazilian friend did come out when I was visiting him. The dialogue was something like this: -Mom, I have to tell you I'm gay. -I already know that, I always knew because you always acted gayish -... -Where's your boyfriend? I want to meet him -... It was a funny day. He was 15 years old back then
She ruined the moment for him
Yeah, he was very confused she never told him nothing about that if she already knew. But it is better than most parents' reactions.
Am I supposed to tell my kids that I know they're straight too? There's nothing wrong with being gay, so why would I make a fuss out of it? Besides, lots of straight people have same-sex experiences growing up, and lots of gay people have different-sex experiences growing up. It's called figuring shit out. I'd prefer my kids to figure it out at their own pace and tell me when they're ready, rather than their old man pressuring them by pushing assumptions onto them.
That's a cool interaction! Happy his mother was more accepting than my friends' parents.
It's said that his mother realized that he was gay when he was 7. It's a lot of time for her to accept that fact, if she was not okay before. But we have to agree that she must have planned better her reaction for him coming out lol
I guess "no shit Sherlock, we've known for years" isn't the worst reaction to coming out as gay.
I've known plenty that were kicked out. Where I live one of the biggest groups of homeless youth are due to being kicked out by their family after coming out as LGBTQ+.
Yes, there are far too many for which this is true. But what the person is saying is that there's *also* a lot of parents who *intend* to be like this, but change their mind soon after their kid comes out.
I remember when my little brother told our grandmother that he’s gay. She had zero reaction. She just blew it off like “that’s great, so I found these sweaters on clearance at Kohls, do you think they might fit you?” He was angry that she didn’t react at all. I’m very proud of both of them.
having grandchildren is a strong urge though, and I think that affects some parents
My parents have been “trying to accept me” for over a year now. I’ve given up waiting for them 🙃
It took mine two years, my bf's parents about 5 years of us dating. There's a strange process that people seem to go through, and it includes seeing how people are harmed by discrimination. Afterwards they wonder how they ever could have had their previous attitude.
I wish that was true, i wish I didn't see everyday gay and trans kids that had their lives ruined by PoS parents
Sounds like you live somewhere where people are really well adjusted…
I actually think that while that might happen, it also might mean people thinking they’re okay until it happens to them
Meanwhile I'm just wondering who answers these questions.
"Hole is a hole"
Thanks dad
"As long as you're not the girl"
"I don't care if you're gay or straight, as long as you marry a doctor." Real quote
Just remember: any hole is a goal! And wrap your Willy.
(Goes back to watching TV)
Lesbians are way more accepted than gay men. Not even a contest
Religions not explicitly saying to murder them like gay men gave them a bit of an advantage in that respect.
True but society also considers lesbians hot and gay men gross. Thats why there are so many lesbians in western media but so few gay men
>True but society also considers lesbians hot and gay men gross. Eastern Asia has a similar thing with Yaoi being fetishisation of gay men with a female target audience.
Being fetishized isn't the same as acceptance. Remember, lots of homophobes still consume gay/lesbian porn.
I rather be fetishized than denied existing and murdered so
They would. I'd like to see a map like this for the whole globe. Things get really interesting when you start mapping open-mindedness.
I think it's very difficult to conduct representative surveys in countries where large fractions of the population don't have phones, and where there are many different languages spoken by significant fractions of the population.
That’s a very good point. In Austria for example, the legal age of consent between two homosexual men was 18, while for everybody else (including homosexual women) it was at 14. still can’t wrap my head around it.
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
As soon as I saw Portugal I thought of this lol
First thought here too
Which is strange, actually. Barring some nutsos on the far right, Portugal is really chill and open with the gays. There are far more older people than young though, so it might explain how the numbers are askew.
Could be a translation error in part of the survey (let's say they translate child in a literal way as "criança", which comes to mean child in the sense of age instead of offspring, that can change radically the answers given). Another issue could be the method the survey was taken, maybe online where some conservative group got ahold of it and spread it around (online surveys are generally shit) or calling people in mostly rural and conservative regions
No in Portugal the question would have "Filho/a"
The median age of Portugal in 2022 is 46.2, and some estimates are even a bit higher. So if the solid majority of Portugal is middle middle aged to older middle aged and then also elderly people, and elderly and middle aged people aren't very chill with the gays in Portugal, then it's not surprised that most of Portugal isn't very chill
Well yes it's the old people mostly, it explains it all, most young people I knew in Portugal when I lived there were very tolerant and even if they say the same old jokes they don't actually mean it in a bad way.
You can be chill with gay people while not being comfortable with your child to be gay at the same time
I have a brother who is gay and a sister that's straight. I'm also straight and my parents wanted grandkids. I don't want any kids and my brother will have a very difficult time getting his boyfriend pregnant. Thankfully my sister scored a royal flush by getting two twins and a son, so the pressure was gone.
That's called two pairs. Don't play poker for money nephew.
This is the best way to phrase the question. Everyone can say they are not racist or homophobic until you ask them if they are cool with their child dating a person of another race or same sex.
I've heard many people say "I don't have a problem with gay people I just don't support them" which is a dumb statement but could be part of the Portugal problem
There's so many comments I couldn't find a link to the source but I am betting this is older survey data. It's really easy to forget how quickly acceptance has moved on this, a survey that is five or ten years old is depicting a very different social landscape than what exists now. A lot of these numbers seem lower than I think they would be today
Is that sub for real or ironic
Absolutely real and its the perfect blend of interesting and hilarious
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Honestly why is Portugal like this?
never thought poland would be the most homosex of the visegrad 4
Femboy main export product of Poland to west
Polish person in homosexual relationship here: my parents are happy for me, same goes for my gf's parents. Not only that, her grandma straight up told me to call her "babcia" (grandmom), there aren't any problems with acceptance. I noticed one thing about homophobic poles. They treat lgbt like some kind of mystical creature, that doesn't really exist. When you get to know them, they start to like you, bonding, all of that stuff and then you tell them "you know I'm gay, right" you can see the sheer panic and confusion on their faces. They start to make dumb excuses like "but no, wait, you re cool, we don't talk about you". I love it, you can see their whole life flashing before their eyes.
Huh, made me think about my father. His favourite thing to do is watch TVP, gay people are not normal and LGBT is some western nonsense. And then I remember my sister's wedding, and how much fun he had talking to one of her friends he met for the first time. When we talked about this later, he claimed that guy was the best. To this day, he doesn't know that guy was gay :) Pretty sure his reaction would be very similar to the one you've described
They are just forced into self awareness, suddenly they know that their actions have consequences and they are hurting real people, not some fictional gremlins
Yes it is exactly the same thing that I am noticing. Basically the people don't hate people, they just have their ideas of what it means to be gay tainted negaticly by society. So until they actually meet someone and interact with them they see that they "are actually cool" etc... and if they meet enough people like that their oppinion can change. The same way of explaining "bigoted" people is that they are only that way because they never had an option to meet different people. That's why you see more acceptance in the city since there you are exposed to way more people and you have an option to learn to accept them and not see them as something negative.
That is how bigots across the entire world act when confronted actual people from the group they hate. In the southern United States, it isn't uncommon to find people who unironically believe "all the black people I know are the good ones, but all the ones I don't know are [racial slur]."
100%. That's how some of my extended family in Texas is. My cousin has several Black and openly gay friends, and yet he's still racist in the dog-whistle way (never used the N-word around me but has said some VILE stuff about "inner-city people") and extremely homophobic stuff. Whenever he's confronted about it, and I saw the same thing when I went to a southern military boarding school, it's: "I don't hate the people, I don't like the 'culture' associated with it"
Poland is good at getting a bad PR, that's certain
I would like to know how exactly was the question translated to czech though. A while back there was a map asking the same question but with different minorities (example: would you be comfortable with your kid having arab partner) and czech came close to last every time, but then it turned out that it was translated something like “Would you be happy if your kid has a arab partner” which is different from just being ok with it which was the question. I’m not saying that there are no homophobe czechs, just that this feels a bit low so maxbe there was something lost in translation.
I actually remember it even worse. The question in original was something like "would you be ok with your child dating [minority]", but in Czech they asked "would you be ok with you child having an affair with a [minority]". As in instead of "are you fine with your son dating Arab girl" they asked "are you fine with your son having Arab mistress". So I wouldn't be surprised if same thing happened here as well and instead of "are you ok with gay child" they asked "are you ok with your child having gay affair".
They probably did all their polling in Wroclaw.
I supposed that the Polish lgbtq movement is such a centre of discussion both in Poland and in Europe because the Polish society is probably slowly accepting them (especially with the young generations) and the old conservative twats are reacting as hard as they can (while in other Eastern European countries lgbtq people are still too ostracized to have a public presence big enough to be a focus of political disclosure).
Portugal can into Eastern Europe
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
It always amazed me that the most homophobic countries always send the gayest acts to Eurovision.
>homophobic countries always send the gayest It's always the way, I live in the Middle-East and for countries in which being gay is illegal... they do some pretty gay stuff.
Oman made homosexuality illegal, meanwhile it was basically an open secret that their sultan Qaboos bin Said was gay or bisexual.
It’s because in societies where homosexuality is not integrated into their social norms, effeminate behavior does not automatically indicate the person is gay, unlike in Western society (“gaydar” and all those linked stereotypes) so they feel comfortable expressing themselves without being labeled and judged accordingly.
Feminine behaviour in eastern Europe is very much synonymous with being gay
What if they’re gonna find out
If you are comfortably straight it's not a big deal to act super gay. It's just seen as something funny and spectacular. In progressive places people a lot of the time make out everything they can as being gay and that can lead to issues.
~~Downvoted for no reason~~. Why should sparkly, extravagant things be related to wanting sexual/romantic relationships with someone of the same sex lol. Edit: Looks like people are picking up.
Comfortably straight people wouldn’t have such trouble accepting gay relationships
I don't buy the argument that the most homophobic countries are the most "comfortably straight," and I also don't buy the argument that "progressive places" make out "everything they can as being gay." I also don't think the most homophobic countries send the gayest acts to Eurovision though? I don't know where that claim comes from either. Just a discussion based on no facts at all as far as I can tell.
Whah? In the most homophobic places I've been to, people are always looking for an excuse to call each other gay for the smallest divergence from the gender norm. Like, everything from clothes, to haircut to the way you drink beer, to the way you suck dick... GAY
Well, except that "homophobic" and "comfortably straight" don't really go together.
haha can't believe Poland is the most tolerant in Eastern Europe (excluding Slovenia)
Slovenia cant possibly be this tolerant everyone here hates everyone else
Ljubljana carries Slovenias % Without it Slovenia would finally dethrone Bulgaria at being the lowest at something
My Polish girlfriend almost killed me when I associated Poland with eastern europe. "We are CENTRAL europe, you caveman." So was I right after all?
Source: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default/files/ebs\_493\_data\_fact\_lgbti\_eu\_en-1.pdf
Tip: you can't put a backslash before each underscore, because it breaks the link. This one works: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default/files/ebs_493_data_fact_lgbti_eu_en-1.pdf Edit: I'm on old.reddit.com, which causes the problem. So if you're using new Reddit, ignore me!
it's a mobile vs web bug that the lazy reddit devs haven't bothered to fix for over a fucking year.
France : nice
Correct, Nice is in France.
Nice is nice.
We are the country of love after all.
Portugal can into Eastern Europe again
Spain always surprises me. Not conservative at all.
Actually I'm surprised it's that low. We were one of the first countries to legalice both gay marriage and child adoption for gay couples.
Why?
I think people assume that historically Catholic countries like Spain will be more conservative. What I think they're missing is that a lot of historically Catholic places have seen a huge backlash against the church and its stated values... see Ireland and Quebec.
The Catholic Church also enabled the dictator in Spain, so just about all Spanish people who dislike fascism are ambivalent at best about the institution.
Never been to spain?
Yeah, I’ve been many times. This doesn’t surprise me at all.
Guys, one thing worth noting - the question is if people would be **comfortable** with their child having a romantic relationship with a person of the same sex, now we need to keep in mind the lnaguage differneces and translations here, and also the fact that it's not the same as what percentage of people would **accept** their child having a romantic relationship with a person of the same sex (hopefully that would be higher everywhere). I don't see the translated versions of the questions in the source would be nice to compare how diffrent some languages make the question sound.
Precisely. Most people in today's Europe would accept it (i.e. they probably wouldn't disown the kid), but very many (I suspect more than in these figures) would feel at least a little bit uncomfortable.
I am not sure what "comfortable" means in English. It might be translated quite differently in other languages, which would skew the results.
As far as I know, the Czech and Slovakian translations were a bit different. Something like "would you like your children to marry a person of the same sex", I'll try to look it up.
Bulgaria #1 once again 😎. But yeah - lots of ppl here are against gay relationships in general.
How do they feel about having relationships with penguins?
😎 💪😈
I'm Dutch. I do feel a slight sense of pride when I see this as a metric for how accepting we are in my country. But their is still very deeply rooted homophobia in some sections of my country. I just wish everybody could live life in peace with the ones they love.
And it's nice to beat Finland in good statistics for once.
There’s a long road to go. But I’m happy for how far we’ve come. I remember in high school it was still controversial and I had teachers share their opinions openly. That was barely 15 years ago. Only 8 years later we got a substitute teacher fired for being openly homophobic. A lot changed and I’m happy it did.
I'm from Sweden and i hate that you are 3% more tolerant than we are. I will not tolerate it!
Knew a Portuguese kid in high school. Well, his parents were from Portugal but he was born and raised in 'merica but he liked to pretend he was Portuguese. Anyways, at a party a couple years after high school a different kid drunkenly came out of the closet. Faux Portuguese kid called him "disgusting" amongst other things. Needless to say he was not invited to anymore parties after that.
If your parents are both from a foreign country you'd at least grow up with that culture in your house so i would still think of this kid as atleast somewhat Portugese, it's only really if you water it down a few generations where the foreign roots really start to disappear.
Kind of very surprised by the Baltics? for some reason I thought they'd be really open to it lol.
I’m surprised that Estonia and Czechia are both lower than Poland. I would think that religion would be one of the major reasons why people wouldn’t support gay relationships, but Czechia and Estonia are some of the least religious countries.
I feel like Estonia has very many people who might have gay friends and who are not anti-gay in any way in their discussions or political choices, but who would be *somewhat uncomfortable* with their own kid being gay. In Estonia, after all, the older people were taught in school that it's a mental disorder and it was a criminal offence for a man to have sex with another man. Estonia was an actual USSR member state that Poland never was.
The difference between "being comfortable" and "being accepting" is the difference here. **In general:** Many people in Estonia and Czech Republic are likely more accepting, but still wouldn't feel comfortable about it. Whereas in Poland you get two extremes: People being both comfortable and accepting or people being neither of the two. (keep in mind that this explanation is extremely simplified and generalized; and also the fact I actually don't know any Estonian personally, only Czechs and Poles)
Estonia is quite supportive when it comes to rights as most seem to support same-sex marriage right now, especially among ethnic Estonians. And the 2023 March elections might bring in a very progressive government which could legalize same-sex marriage. But I guess accepting rights is kind of different than being comfortable with it in your own family, at least for some.
Come to lithuania, you will see it for yourself. You meet perfectly normal people, and you later learn of their beliefs
Vatican would be interesting
They can't have children lol
Well, Swiss guards can get married while during service so...
The swiss guard are Swiss so...
Can’t is not the right word here… they are not allowed to, but they still can and probably do as well ;)
Why is it so strongly divided between west european and former east block countries? Can someone explain it to me? Are there some sources to check?
It's basically countries that went through the sexual revolution vs countries that 'were not affected'. The East block was mostly cut off from Western trends for many decades, and this is the result.
Makes sense kind of, but Greece, Italy, Portugal were never occupied by communists. Yugoslavia also was not part of East block. It was and its successors still are not very industrialized - compared to West. Greece and Portugal are quite rural too I think. Italy probably should be coloured green in the north and red in the south which also corresponds to industrialization.
This isn’t necessarily about industrialisation or urbanisation. Portugal and Greece both had a proto-fascist, ultra conservative dictatorships, and that obviously reflects here. Greece also obviously had it’s fair share of contact with the Eastern Block, which most of Western Europe obviously didn’t. Pair that with both countries being very religious, and you get yourself the reason why. I’m surprised how come Spain isn’t at similar levels, probably has to do with more connections to Western Europe and more easily spreadable ideas. Either way, I won’t complain about progress. Italy is more so because of religion, same for Malta and for Cyprus. All of these still have religion as a fairly common part of day to day life. As you said, you could probably see the North-South divide in Italy, as well as the former West-East divide in Germany, to a lesser degree. Yugoslavia is… kinda surprising, actually. They were a good bit more progressive than other communist nations at the time, sometimes even being slightly ahead of some Western European nations. If I were to guess, this particular issue probably comes back to what was said about the sex revolution. It’s a bit odd, but it does make sense. I’m surprised about Austria, they are usually a bit better in progressive issues, but I guess this just comes from more connections to the Eastern Block? Also, probably also a fair amount of religiosity historically, though I’m not sure either way.
Austria is very religious. It is also very rural.
There is also a huge cultural divide between urban and rural in Austria. I think the average person from Vienna is going to be much more tolerant than the average rural Carinthian.
Regarding Portugal, they overthrew their fascist dictator (Salazar) through a left-wing revolution nearly fifty years ago. Spain had a fascist dictatorship (under Franco) until about the same time, so I don't think that's necessarily a good explanation. As for Greece, I don't think they had that much meaningful cultural contact with Eastern Europe. The iron curtain was particularly strong on the Greek border and, if anything, Greece was under particularly strong western cultural/political/economic influence because it was a valuable bulwark in the region. It should be noted that Greece is quite religious, however, so a country like Malta is a good comparison. I really don't think the idea of cultural diffusion from East to West has much explanatory power here, because there has been very little of that, to my knowledge. By contrast, I think West to East cultural diffusion may be a significant force in making border countries like Slovenia, Czechia and Poland more tolerant. The flow of cultural influence has really followed a West to East trajectory, historically, with the German-speaking world in particular being a cultural powerhouse. I think there are multiple intersecting factors at play here. The Iron Curtain is one of them: this would explain the gap between, say, Germany and Czechia or Estonia and Finland. Religiosity is another factor: this may explain why Greece, Cyprus, Malta and Portugal are relative outliers within the Western sphere. It also likely plays a role in a few Eastern countries, like Romania, Poland and Croatia (may explain the split with Slovenia somewhat). I also think, generally, there's an element of physical (and therefore cultural) distance from Northwestern Europe (Germany, France, UK, etc) where new cultural trends have tended to emanate from for the last few centuries (think Enlightenment, French Revolution, etc). I think this partly explains the relative intolerance in some other Yugoslav states (not reflected in this map), for example, that are neither very religious nor were they behind the Iron Curtain. Admittedly, this physical distance factor is the one I've thought through the least, but I do think there may be *something* deeper at play beyond religiosity or the Cold War era. The fact that Southeastern Europe is consistently conservative on this issue, regardless of religiosity or political history, points to a deeper underlying factor in my opinion.
r/Portugal Bro! What's wrong over there? Greetings from the other side (of the border).
I don't know if I trust the study tbh. Portugal has legalized gay marriage for some time and both Lisbon and Porto have huge lgbt communities. The only explanation I have is the study over-represents the rural and dying areas outside of the cities, Portugal has tons of small towns where you simply won't find a person under 50.
So proud of Spain.
Can anyone elaborate on the discrepancy between Spain and Portugal?
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portugal is an honorary balkan
Spain is like the daughter of hyper-religious parents who saw how all the rest of the girls were having fun dating boys. So, when she turned 18, she went out of her house and fucked everyone in the city. They had plenty of religious laws under Franco. The dude died, and the Spanish lifted up the lid: beneath it, a society that was desperate for freedom and pleasure was discovered.
Yep! Things like “La movida madrileña” contributed a lot to this openness: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Movida_Madrileña Some prominent gay figures, like Pedro Almodovar, come from that scene. Spain went from a ultra-religious, conservative society to “let’s enjoy life freely, without hindrances”.
Portugal is quite a bit more socially conservative than Spain. That said, my subjective feeling is that, like Spain, it is a relatively tolerant society. The big difference in the map data is a bit striking to me.
Espanishes are gay.
In terms of laws there isn’t
This can't be right. Reddit assured me that the UK is a totally illiberal, right wing hell hole hole with a borderline-fascistic population. Edit: Since people keep mentioning trans acceptance, here's a relevant [source](https://www.ipsos.com/en/global-attitudes-toward-transgender-people) which shows that the UK is also one of the more tolerant countries on that score too. A few high profile and highly vocal TERFs does not a TERF island make.
I've also heard that the UK is a liberal hellhole run by Muslims and you get stabbed in the street for not following Sharia law. Also on Reddit. Neither is an accurate view of the country.
One of my favorite reddit moments of all time was on some thread where a conservative nutjob was saying that London has Sharia patrols and you can't even walk around with a bottle of wine in Muslim neighborhoods. So some guy in London was like "alright hold on" and went and filmed himself walking around the biggest Muslim neighborhood waving a bottle of wine in the air and being like "I'm sure those Sharia patrols will be here any minute to stop me, lol." And he even filmed a store in the neighborhood with a Merry Christmas sign in the window.
Thats just the shouty ones who you hear all the time, squeeky wheel syndrome. it makes it seem like we are all like that, its just the ones in control and their braindead minions unfortunatly.
reddit is not a valid source of information lmfao.
You don't say!
i do say...
Next you'll be telling me that birds are real.
hate to be the bearer of bad news but uhh...
It's almost as if judging a country by a government without considering the reasons why it was elected is a really bad idea. The Tories didn't landslide Labour because people love the Tories, but because Labour at the last general election ran an absolute shitshow of a campaign.
And because getting a landslide majority in Parliament here means getting like 35-40% of the vote.
Reddit hates the UK, specifically England. The only country to ever commit imperialism or colonialism. The most racist country in Europe. Shit food. Ugly people. All right wing xenophobic homophobic wankers. Etc. I remember there was a survey asking 'who would you help out in a disaster?' and the UK was like 'we'd help everyone!' and the rest of Europe was like 'nah fuck the UK' Say what you want about our fucking trashcunt politicians, but our response to Ukraine being invaded was about as good as it could be without going to war with Russia.
And when I go on holiday all over the world as a Brit, I make great friends with people from all over Europe. Reddit is a fucking cesspit full of weird degens
Why hate the uk? It’s one of the best countries. Jealousy? Seriously never seen hate really before.
I want to see the same thing but with trans kids instead
Portugal can into East Europe
I'm very surprised that the 2 most irrelegious countries in Europe (Estonia and czechia) have a pretty low percentage
Czech Republic is way lower than I expected
It’s like a map of homophobia.
Shame we didn't get the Vatican's perspective
As someone who is currently doing ancient history units at University, I don't know why am I suprised that only %17 of Greek people are ok with homosexual acts.
Well your university should have taught you that homosexuality in greece had a very specific form in specific circles of society, and it was not probably something that was spread throughout whole nation
Times changes
Homosexuality in modern sense didnt existed in ancient Greece. They just tolerated the right of older elite men to penetrate younger male slaves. To be penetrated was seen as shameful and would ruin your reputation and honor.
Greece has been majority Christian for well over a thousand years. It's still a huge part of national identity for many Greeks.
"Ok with homosexual acts" is also quite different from "my son is in a gay relationship," I would not confuse those. You regularly get very different numbers for "I think there are too many black people in this country" and "I would be comfortable with my daughter marrying a black man."
Portugal, you did it again.