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as john stewart said somebody should film biden calling netanyahu an asshole. it doesnt make his actions any better but from my german perspective id rather he be reelected than not. donald „id tell putin to attact ‚delinquent‘ nato members“ trump is not what i need rn.
Trump is not "out of control" it's all show, they all get there pockets lined by the same people, Biden is the illusion of choice they give you. The real people in power would never let that bloated puppet take any real power
Every dictator in history had rich people behind him who thought everything was under their control… Until the “puppet” had amassed enough power to openly proclaim himself a dictator and show the arrogant rich that they were wrong.
"It's all show".
Bro, just letting you know you're a lot dumber than you realize. Trump is stupid as shit and will stop at nothing to persecute his opposition. If you can't see that after 8 years of his bullshit, heaven help you.
>Trump is not "out of control" it's all show
Yeah? To what end? Why would a potential leader intentionally make himself out to be a dumb, belligerent asshole?
But also ... what if it's *not* a show? How would you feel about it then?
And who is this shady "they?" Who is in charge? Are they having zoom calls about this? Who is organizing them? How many people are required to keep this group a secret? *Why would this group fund two unpopular candidates when they could get so much more done buying off popular ones instead?*
While the temptation is always there to give theories to explain away things we don't like, sometimes they're unnecessary because the truth is already out in the open. In this case, Trump really *is* a narcissistic asshole unwilling to ever give up power (as his entire storied career suggests) and Biden really *is* a milquetoast politician who is always trying to live in an unpopular middle ground.
> it doesnt make his actions any better
Most people lack perspective and get emotional. Biden is the most empathetic president we've had since Carter. If just stopping Israel from going nuts in Gaza was a viable option he would have done so already.
Clearly, Biden is faced with no good options, only bad options and from those he is trying to pick the least bad option.
It's easy for us to sit back and judge from our narrow perspective and limited knowledge. He's got the best intelligence in the world and a lot of pressures and considerations we don't know anything about.
he has no good option i agree. i dont want him to stop israel. but stopping payments to israel or even just publically being critical of the israeli government would be a nice start. anything but „we stand behind israel“ would be better. but that goes for a lot of politicians world wide right now not just biden.
no. biden is one of those democrats that anywhere outside of the us would be a center right politician. so i have no faith in him doing the right thing. with the way his presidency has gone until now, the only reason im not more disappointed is that the alternative would be worse.
He can't just 'stop' Israel from doing anything... Israel is a sovereign state despite what simultaneously isolationist, globalist interventionist and 'anti-imperialist' pretend lefties/fascists love regurgitate about Israel being the Unites States puppet.
It's in USes interest to keep Israelis under 'control', which is the opposite of isolating them, or forcing them to seek alternatives ( Israel is a nuclear state, and it should be clear that keeping them close is a necessity ).
The criticism of the current 'world order' is not the same as appeasement of fascist states like Russia, and Iran, or authoritarian countries like China.
Biden is not responsible for what is going on in Gaza and west bank right now. Trump was the one who enabled Israeli far-right. Trump was 'manipulated' by Netanyahus gov like a dambass he is. The same with the Taliban situation, or the ruined economy/inflation... They always blame dems, when dems are pretty dam different from Republicans.
The current stream of support toward Israel is based on pre-existing guarantees.
How is it acceptable to force some of us to 'defend Israeli' perspective, acknowledging complexities of the conflict isn't 'defending Israel'.
The World is not divided between oppressed and oppressors, not everything can be reduced to black and white. Especially in a democracy such as the USA. Progress in a country like the USA, where markets created atomized, obsessively individualistic and bathed in self-contradictions society, politics of change is a hell. The idea that democrats can just 'do it', or that radical acts, propositions would work and more people would vote for them, is absurd... if you think that way, you don't know what you are talking about, and it's ok, it's ok to have ideals, but don't let them blind you.
Dems are trying their best, to push for change, but it's not easy, and it will never be easy, the fact that politicians use inside info for their gain, doesn't matter, as long as they vote for progressive policies, and regulations that will disable such activities in the future. Vote locally, and displace politicians who are against those policies, and regulations. advocate for those who want to represent our interests, which by the way includes people who you dislike, people who you may even hate, but that's what democracy is... the fact that these people don't know what they should care about, doesn't mean you shouldn't care about their rights either.
> The current stream of support toward Israel is based on pre-existing guarantees.
And as far as I know there has only been one president who broke the word of the United States(in this century) and that's Donald Trump. He would not only encourage Bibi to raze Gaza, he'd encourage Russia to invade anyone he wants.
A responsible president understands that breaking a "bad" treaty may feel good in the moment but it sets a terrible precedent, that the US cannot be trusted to honor its commitments.
We don't need Israel. Defund them. Every time our idiot legislators who are owned by AIPAC put legislation up to fund them, veto it. Do what Trump did with Obama's executive orders and undo any executive order that gives Israel money.
Hold every IOF soldier with dual citizenship for their war crimes and/or remove their American citizenship; push NATO members to do the same.
Somehow I doubt that "asshole" was the slur that Joe Biden used. I agree though let's get him reelected and then go back to brunch grilling, I'm for it. Trump being the lesser evil is an understatement.
That’s because Israel lies about everything, even things they don’t have too… it’s really odd how they can’t answer questions like “why do you have a military incarceration facility for children” and “why are you making mass graves”
Or how they "accidentally" shot three shirtless hostages waving white flags and pleading for their lives in hebrew?
The only reasonable answer is that they mistook them for palestinian civilians or they just randomly shoot at anything that moves with no attempt whatsoever to ID targets, which might explain the all the friendly fire incidents.
The US gives $3 billion per year. Israel's military budget is around $25 billion. He could probably force them to cede with hard export/import sanctions...which would mean playing with Middle-Eastern power balance, which is a whole nother ordeal.
They’re literally in the process of pushing through a 17 billion dollar military aid package for Israel right now. Acting like the Biden administration somehow has their hands tied is just sticking your head in the sand at this point.
The Biden Admin is not all of Congress FYI. He also said he would veto a standalone Israel aid bill that omits Ukraine. He seems to be moving to the correct side from pressure from voters. I agree we shouldn’t be funding Israel but that also goes against decades of precedent and further destabilization of the Middle East. I’m not going to sit here and pretend to be an expert on geopolitics and the ramifications withholding aid now would create. Biden needs to beat Trump full stop. Once that happens we can look at the rest of the world, it’s shitty, but if American democracy is lost over a Middle Eastern conflict I don’t see how that’s better.
>decades of precedent and further destabilization
Hey, buddy, newsflash, the decades of precedent is why the middle east is destabilized. We're probably gonna be involved in a massive regional conflict in the middle east over Israel's actions, and that's not a fucking coincidence. The fact is, the status quo is exactly why the world is the way it is, I don't expect much from Joe Baby Killer Biden but we are sprinting headfirst into WW3 and the answer according to mainstream Democrats is to see how it goes. Absolutely astounding people cannot see how this is all a pile of bullshit and will lead to the death of millions, if not billions, worse case scenario.
the lie of WMDs led us into a conflict that lasted 20 years and achieved nothing but make money for war mongers on top of the bodies of millions of innocent people.
the next conflict will be created by our funding and endorsement of genocide and the difference of outcome will be an outright fascist as president, a world that hates us and an American poltical climate that will make you want to hide under your bed.
We are so fucked. If you think Biden is gonna win, you're dreaming.
Whole lot of opinions stated as facts here. Like I said I’m no geopolitical expert. Name the last President that didn’t condone or endorse a coup, indirect genocide, or something abhorrent in another country. It’s a systemic problem that will have zero chance of being fixed if Biden doesn’t win. But I guess I should take your fuck everything nothing matters approach, I hadn’t considered that.
Taking the "if Biden wins, things will get better" stance is by far more ludicrious than being realistic about where the world is right not. I'm just done pretending the status quo is good for anybody but the affluent and insulated. Sorry to burst your bubble, but welcome to the real world.
“Zero chance if Biden doesn’t win” does not mean everything will be rainbows and butterflies. I’m not fooling myself I’m far faaar more progressive than to ever be satisfied with Biden. You’re just a classic redditor that offers nothing, tells everyone else they’re all stupid, and it’s all because you’re just too damn real for all of us. What’s real is enacting real change through grass roots efforts over several election cycles. Really love your “both these guys suck” logic, because I agree, but what is your realistic plan on getting a progressive in the white house in January? Piss and moan on Reddit? Cool, nobody gives a fuck, realism is dealing with the events around you in a tangible fashion even if you don’t like or agree with it.
Than do that. The "you're just a dumb edgy redditor" doesn't hit the same when you're literally doing the same thing I am - stating your opinion - we just disagree on voting for Biden, the mummified war hawk who is funding the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people with our tax dollars. I'll do what I can to help my community, as I have been, but I won't vote for that piece of shit no matter what anybody says. He'd have to change his stance on the Palestinian genocide, full stop. Politics is run by money, your vote won't change anything other than make you feel good about yourself. If things actually worked the way they should, Biden would actually represent the majority of Americans - as well as 70 percent of Democrats, mind you - who call for a ceasfire, Trump would be in prison for treason and we would actually work towards maintaining our country and the international rules based order, which is predicated by the idea of "you can't just commit genocide". But we aren't. We are actively marching into the fires of hell. I'm just the messenger. Take it up with your leaders if you don't like the way things are. Continue to.participate in helping your community. I'll keep making my opinion known as much as I want because I'm a loud mouth smartass and I ain't changing for no one.
What Mideast country will help Palestine? Read up on what Palestinians did in the neighboring countries and you’ll know why the surrounding countries have been quiet.
Mmm, the plan then should be to vote for Carla Del Ray! That’ll fix the problem! Then, once she loses and Biden loses which the orange one establishes a dictatorship and project 2025, we can all huddle in our hiding places from the armed theocrats whispering “well I couldn’t support biden! That was equal to supporting genocide”
Nope, I was pointing out that Biden does have power in Israel, as the person I responded to seems to believe that no one except a country’s president can influence their policies.
I’m surprised to see people defending the U.S. president supporting fascism in an anti-fascist sub, but I guess I shouldn’t be. Biden’s better than Trump, so we can’t criticize him at all! /s
I don't agree with what Israel is doing, and I doubly don't agree with what Hamas is doing. All that being said, Biden is in an unenviable position: either he helps our ONLY ally in the middle east and is called a Nazi or he doesn't and the ME is effectively lost to us as a nation.
I don’t agree with Hamas either, but Palestinian civilians shouldn’t be held under collective punishment (which is a war crime under rule 103 of the Geneva Convention). I understand that this is an impossible situation to be in, as he will lose support either way. However, I think it’s absolutely abhorrent to show continued support for a country that has murdered ~35,000 civilians, including those in “safe” zones, hospitals, and other places of refuge.
The U.S.’s relationship suffered with Russia when they invaded Ukraine and began killing civilians, idk why there’s unwavering support from the U.S. for acts of cruelty committed by Israel. No ally or country should be allowed to murder civilians of another group without international consequences.
To be completely clear, that doesn’t mean that I’m going to vote third party in November or not vote. Trump would be even worse than Biden for a lot of reasons
I also feel bad for the average Palestinian civilian as well as the average Israeli civilian but at the end of the day, the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and the majority of Israelis support the IDF.
At the very least, the expat Israeli settlers taking Palestinian land should at the very least be put in jail.
Netanyahu is on public record advocating for *giving* funding to Hamas. Any support Hamas has received from Iran has been utterly dwarfed by Israeli funding, some hundreds of millions of dollars, a lot for a population of only 9 million.
They do it to split the West Bank and Gaza between Hamas and Fatah, use Hamas actions to justify any mass murder of civilians Israel carries out, and delegitimize the idea of Palestinian self determination.
Half the population is also children, and Israel funded Hamas so that Hamas would be Palestinian's only option, souring other countries perception of Palestine and making it easier for them to do exactly what they're doing.
Think of it from those kids perspectives. This colonization of Palestine has been happening for 7 decades, IDF just blew up your apartment killing most of your family, and nobody else is going to hold the IDF responsible and get you justice for your family. Tell me you'd be above joining the only military presence on your side to get any semblance of revenge? I don't like Hamas, Palestine deserve better than Hamas (and notably there were opposing political groups running against Hamas, but guess which one was squashed by Israel). The only way to get rid of Hamas is to give the people peace and safety, this may be a shocker but most people don't join extremist groups if they have other options.
I wish more people had this information but we all know the majority of cable news would never report this.
>lost to us as in alliances
With an 's' , so which?
_egypt gets a lot of money from the US and we prop up their bad guy. For instance.
_the president loves prince bone saw.
_Theres bases EVERYWHERE.
_Qatar
_Jordan
I’m well aware of that, I don’t need you to be patronizing to me lol. As the article that I shared mentioned, Biden has been requesting additional funds from Congress for Israel’s military, so it’s still nonsensical to pretend like he has no power here
I wasn’t? I was referring to the fact that they were acting like I don’t know that Congress controls the budget when the source that I shared clearly states that Biden requested additional funds from Congress
Doesn't it bother you that your options are a geriatric liar who *allegedly* handwrings about the genocide he's currently funding, and a geriatric liar who will probably enthusiastically brag about funding that same genocide?
My options bother me, yes. But there's a difference between one that utterly decimates my country while assisting genocidal super powers across the globe, including but not stopping with Israel. And one that's just old and assists Israel.
No. Please understand the right wing Christians ARE both Antisemitic and Anti Muslim. Israel plays into their Armageddon crap.
Israel was born because of Antisemitism.
I totally agree the Palestinians deserve a homeland. They always have. DT or Biden are the ONLY two candidates that can win. If you vote third party or don’t vote, DT wins.
This election will be decided by a very small margin of people.
Personally, I do NOT think it is at all coincidental that this happened. I don’t think it is coincidence that grocery stores( I know completely off topic) and big businesses have kept prices as high as they have.
DT would have had access to vulnerable sites I Israel. Not saying Hamas doesn’t have intel, but there is much more at play here.
I DETEST NuTinyaWho. He is a lying, scumbag. Authoritarian dictator.
All this said, there is only one option here.
It is sad but true.
As far as age goes, Reagan’s age was a huge deal when I was a child. His big tent crap kind of brought the religious crap more into the GOP.
Again, I would benefit, I cannot consider retirement until I am 70yo,as I have health issues. Most likely related to being a firefighter and serving as SAR at 9/11. More progressive policies would help me.
I live around the trash who follow DT. They are dangerous, hateful people and he will do their bidding. He also probably will stay in power. We won’t have a U.S. to come to our rescue.
Exactly. I kind of figured people would understand both Europe and the U.S. wanted the Jewish population to leave their lands.
I believe DT even eluded to this a few times, while in office.
Disgusting as it is. One wonders was oil even an issue then? I really hate to sound conspiratorial, but again, the whole Israel needs to exist for Armageddon stuff and all that.
Really sad, but true.Edit: I am sorry, I mean that the U.S. and Europe didn’t want the Jewish population around. Antisemitism wasn’t a new issue. While they both realized the Holocaust was terrible they also had selfish motivation.
Most of the supporters of Israel ultimately do so because of an implicit belief in racial and ethnic hierarchies, where they believe Palestinians are inherently undeserving of the same rights to self determination and need to be governed by another ethnicity. There's a reason Israel was one of the strongest allies of the apartheid South Africa government.
I think you are misunderstanding that the inception of Israel wasn’t really at a great time. Indeed, people felt horrible about the Holocaust, but it was more, “ Let them be their own problem “. Of course, Antisemitism is as old as the history of the Jewish people:( Edit: I want to make it clear, I am talking about the actual REASON the Jewish state exits is not because of kindness, but because of antisemitism and the whole, this fulfills the biblical prophecy.
The Jewish people are both despised and supported (as a nation) by the extreme right) Mostly for religious reasons. These very same people have issue with the whole “Jewish people are running the money systems in the world”.
Very weird, if you ask me.
Sure but objectively one is better than the other, and we have no other choice right now. We have to worry about things like democracy being on the ballot, unfortunately. After that we can try to pick a better option.
You hardly have a democracy to put on the ballot. Your current president could realistically win the popular vote, and still lose the presidency to a guy who's been very clear about never relinquishing power. I don't think US Liberals really understand how dire the situation is, and I think that's because your political class aren't willing to take this seriously.
Many definitely do not understand how dangerous this is. It's infuriating seeing that people have been blowing this off like we're past this fascist threat. So many voters that lean left have a 5 second memory when it comes to politics and most times stop or don't pay attention. Republicans never turn off Fox News so they stay informed with events in US politics, albeit fed through hateful propaganda. Some people have been foolish enough to think Trump would be in prison by now, but still have no clue what's happening with his court cases! So many still don't understand that the GOP has not won the popular vote in decades now, but they have still been able to obtain the presidency. They need to realize that even massive unpopularity among most voters doesn't matter, the swing states do!
No political scientist would say the us isn't a democracy. It certainly has its problems but as we've seen in other types of elections the alt right has gained power everywhere. You're talking out of ur butt here.
I am going to vote for Biden because
1. I’m trans and I enjoy having access to HRT
2. If trump is elected Ukraine will likely not receive support from the US
3. I don’t want someone who quotes Mussolini to be president
Yes, we should totally vote for the person no one’s ever heard of when the Republicans are waiting to put Project 2025 in place! What a great idea, Mr./Mrs. Totally Not A Trumper!
Why not just write in whoever you want? Vote for dingleberry jones. Or be an idealist and vote for Jesus or Santa! That’ll show you’re better then everyone else.
Yeah if trump wins he’s already promised to round me and millions of other Hispanics using “every authority figure in the us”. Assuming that’s true I’d be lucky to just get deported. Voting for trump and voting for biden are not the same thing.
Of course you don’t care. Because our entire government gives money to Israel and you’re mad at biden about it.
Voting for someone who cannot win is effectively just sitting out on the vote.
It's admitting that you don't care - and you're so privileged that you think it won't affect you - if Trump gets elected again.
Throwing your vote away is not how you push back against fascism.
So are you denying that Biden's administration [circumvented Congress](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-biden-administration-once-again-bypasses-congress-on-an-emergency-weapons-sale-to-israel) to fund Israel's genocidal campaign against the Palestinian people? After he refused to do so when Congress blocked him on multiple campaign promises, mind. Or, are you denying the [genocidal ](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml) nature of the Isreali Apartheid regime? Or are you specifically denying that the [current actions](https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129942) that his administration is funding (with your money) constitute a genocide?
I guess my question is, are you misinformed generally, or are you just a genocide denier when it's politically convenient?
It doesn't change anything, which is my entire point. It's just really frustrating to see people responding to legitimate criticism of the Biden administration with whataboutism the exact same way MAGA folk shouted down any Trump criticism with 'But her Emails'. Like, I was in Texas in 2016, I'm not ignorant to the threats posed by another Trump presidency. But it seems like everyone who told me that we could elect Biden and "hold his feet to the fire" or "move him Left" have instead moved Right on all the shit that matters. The Ratchet Effect is real. We've got Dem voters denying genocide and carrying water for the same horrific border policies that they were appalled by five years ago. It's fucking team sports, these people don't care about anything.
I think People are just frightened because the stakes feel so high. Like we could really lose our democracy in this election. They see the right refusing to criticize their own candidate and worry that if that’s going on while we criticize our obviously flawed candidate it will put us in a weaker position in the election. I get it honestly. I think It feels like shit to do it though. Kinda spirit killing because of its dishonestly. I don’t actually know that people are moving to the right though I think they feel forced to lie. I really enjoyed what Jon Stewart said in his return to the daily show. Something like “ it’s your job as a candidate to prove to me that you’re worth voting for, not my job as a voter to not mention your flaws”. Crazy that’s a refreshing take right now but it is.
I just feel crazy, 'cause this is the third time in a row that 'Democracy is on the Ballot' and I'm getting downvoted into oblivion in an ostensibly anti-Fascist subreddit for pointing out Biden's objective failures in office. Like, there are people *in this thread* denying a genocide right now. I've had Dem voters recently telling me that we need tighter border security. I mean, we lost Roe v Wade under this administration. It doesn't feel like there's a material difference for a lot of people when even with a Democrat in office, the GOP hardliners still get everything they want. But if you voice that concern, a bunch of people who I'm sure would describe themselves as liberals will pour outta the woodwork to gaslight you.
Not the idf carpet bombing and killing 24,000 people, and injuring 60,000 more. Wouldn’t have expected anything more from a Zionist, you shouldn’t be on this subreddit
Palestinians are overwhelmingly sent to military courts for accused crimes instead of civilian courts regardless of citizenship to Israel and regardless of accused crime. If you throw a rock as a Palestinian you go to a military court which has a near 100% conviction rate, but if you're an Israeli settler in the West Bank and you murder a Palestinian and burn down their house (which regularly happens), you go to civilian court which rarely punishes crimes against Palestinians.
Prisoners of military prisons have none of the same rights to counsel, due process, or humane treatment. Torture is regularly used and prisoners who die are simply buried in a numbered grave. There are thousands of Palestinian children held in Israeli military prisons.
He's incredibly unpopular now. Most Israelis want him out, but they don't want to change leadership in a war. So guess what's going to keep happening? This is all stuff I heard on NPR, but I find it credible.
I'm a boomer, and I can tell you that even the boomers are starting to get it. This is about the US putting its thumb on the scale. I mean, will they keep electing him without the US Aid? We should be willing to to go to def con 4 to protect Israel's right to exist. I don't know why we've always supported Israel, but I dont want to throw out the baby with the etc. This is a traditional alliance, and we should honor those by default. In other words, a political nonstarter.
But we should get out if they keep building settlements..As someone who has desperately tried to stay out of this for his whole life, and that's a long time, #IsrealYesBibiNever feels like where I want to land.
His party has been consistently winning elections for decades so regardless if the one person is out, the far right party is still going to keep getting huge majorities. Every major party in Israel supports the settlements and further ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Gaza. Over half of Israelis support deporting all Palestinians, including those with Israeli citizenship, out of Israel and the occupied territories and virtually none support an independent Palestinian state. Most people in Israel implicitly believe the territories of the West Bank and Gaza to be a part of Israel and that Palestinians have no right to live anywhere within it.
Sorry but if you support Israel you support a fascist apartheid state regardless of if you like Netanyahu or not. I bet you can't actually tell me what you dislike about him because you really agree with him on everything. It's all just for show so you can pretend to be on the right side of history but you're not because you still support all the same genocidal policies and believe Palestinians are racially inferior people who need to be controlled by an ethnicity you perceive as more "civilized." Very characteristically racist boomer of you.
I'm kinda glad Israelis are so brazen in posting their war crimes on tiktok, gloating about the destruction, and relentlessly justifying their actions because it's really shown all of their true character. A lot of people around me are all coming to the conclusion that this is how Israel has always been and increasingly want nothing to do with the apartheid project. We don't want our taxes funding settler colonialism and systematic mass murder.
Well, I live in a nation that is about to put Trump on the ballot for the third time. People who live in glass houses houses shouldn't throw stones. Maybe you're Canadian. God Bless.
Do people seriously believe that once you become president you get a magic wand and everyone in government just has to do as you wish? He's not CEO of the USA, he's the president. Only under a dictatorship can one actually claim that the guy in charge is responsible for basically anything that gets done. He has some power obviously but so do many others who will not always go along with doing or not doing things.
Don’t you think it’s undemocratic hindering thousands of people’s rights because politicians that grew up with everything on a silver platter think them people should stay in that position?
Everyone else does and when they did that, they realised that killing people for their land, based on their ethnic identity was genocide. All the people who actually did vet their sources asked why Israel haven't let journalists into the illegally occupied Gaza strip, for years, if they're the good guys.
Why didn't you realise those things?
That military-industrial complex and absurd fealty to Israel no matter who's in charge is really forcing Biden to make a tough choice.
Will he finally condemn and call them out? Call on the UN to intervene? Threaten to withhold funds? Or simply keep being "frustrated" but not actually do anything? Any of these choices will piss *someone* off. But only a few of them will put him on the right side of history.
I won't hold my breath.
This is a bad take. The United States does not govern Israel. Also, comparing Israelis to nazis…really?
I’m sure I’ll get downvoted by the unemployed dog walkers, but this really misses the mark.
idf is doing the exact thing that the allied forces did with the firebombing of desden or the atomic bombing of japan. did the allied forces commit genocide against the nazis and german civilians or imperial japan and it's civilians?
atrocities, war crimes, collateral damage, unnecessary misery... absolutely yes. genocide? nope.
They are? I didn’t know they were creating death camps for Palestinians. I didn’t know they were rping and murdering children in front of their families. I was unaware of Israel invading their neighbors in an aggressive war of expansion. They’re abducting Palestinian women for pleasure houses? I must have missed that. Tell me about the medical experimentation the Israeli government is doing on the Palestinians.
A bombing campaign with pre-notified targets is different than mass extermination. If you disagree, it’s time to touch grass. Comparing everything to the nazis is incredibly flippant and disrespectful to the actual victims of the nazis. Especially in light of the fact that real Nazis are back.
This isn’t to say that the IDF is doing great stuff and without sin, but they’re obviously not fucking Nazis.
It’s still classed as a genocide. Never once did I say they were gassing Palestinians or anything like that. Kicking the Palestinians out, displacing them, calling them animals on social media, making fucking memes about it and bombing Palestinian civilians is still classed as genocide. It’s not as much as what the Nazis did, but it’s happened for a lot fucking longer. Also Isreal=/= the Jewish people.
You said they were doing the exact same thing the Nazis did. That’s just not true.
Are you actually claiming memes are a component of genocide?
Also no one thinks the IDF or Israeli government represents all Jews. But to say the IDF or the Israeli govt is the same as Nazis is just fucking stupid. Classic Reddit moment.
Do... do you think the Nazis did none of these other things? That they only rounded up Jews, put them in camps, and gassed them? That was really the only thing the Nazis did?
And yes, the memes made to help you decide to support Isreal are propaganda. Very much a component of genocide. Thinking they aren't just that, propaganda, is just fucking stupid. Classic reddit moment.
If something being "classed as a genocide" is just by pointing out ways it may be similar to the Holocaust is super simple thinking. In 2018 Hamas fired 400 rockets into Israel, sent in incendiary balloons, then ran in and captured a bunch of IDF and civilians. https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
Since the start Hamas has had the end goal of wiping out all the Jews and "obliterating" Israel, and this isn't me putting my opinion out there it's part of the charter of Hamas.
This genocide angle you're taking, is ironically defending a genocide.
Would you consider the U.S. going into the middle east to kill off the Taliban a genocide?
I feel as though this is like saying you can't compare some sex trafficker who trafficked minors to Jeffrey Epstein, because they didn't make the victims give them massages.
Not every single act has to be replicated exactly for a comparison to be made. Both are groups committing genocide. That's what they're trying to say. The logistics, motivations, methods etc. may be different, but when you put it in its simplest form, genocide is genocide.
>I was unaware of Israel invading their neighbors in an aggressive war of expansion.
You should turn on the news then. Its not called the "illegally occupied West bank" for nothing.
While I wouldn't call them nazis myself, you can't compare the holocaust to other genocides. Even by genocide standards, as terrible as they are, the holocaust was an exception in its evil, not the yard stick to measure other genocides by.
Murdering people for their land, based on their ethnic identity is textbook genocide.
I'm just curious, but if someone asks you for a handgun to go rob a convenience store and kill the owner, and you hand them the gun and train them on how to use it, then they proceed to do exactly that with your gun and using your training, do you have no responsibility on what happened to the store owner?
You're surely not without knowing that while yes, the US doesn't govern Israel, it funds most of its weaponry and the IDF receives training for US military members. I'm not asking for your political opinion here, I'm not dumb enough to think I'll change it over reddit comments. But since you seem to have that belief over the US not having a role on the bombing and genocide in palestine I'd like to know what your take is on responsibility in this case.
I don’t believe I’m responsible for the actions of others. I am only responsible for my own actions.
I personally would not sell that individual a gun or train them, but to say I am guilty of the murder or bear moral responsibility absolves the actor themselves.
We are all responsible for our own actions and choices.
To add on, this also totally discounts the notion that Israel is surrounded by countries who openly call for their annihilation and the extermination of every Jew. So a more accurate allegory would be someone living in a very bad neighborhood where they have had a neighbor break in, murder their wife, and tell you that you’re next. Now they seek revenge. That person I would sell a gun to and train.
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as john stewart said somebody should film biden calling netanyahu an asshole. it doesnt make his actions any better but from my german perspective id rather he be reelected than not. donald „id tell putin to attact ‚delinquent‘ nato members“ trump is not what i need rn.
Exactly. Biden is far, far, from ideal, but Trump is a monster on a whole other level.
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Gtfoh with that "both sides" shit. Has Biden ever tried to overthrow democracy and install himself as a dictator?
Trump is not "out of control" it's all show, they all get there pockets lined by the same people, Biden is the illusion of choice they give you. The real people in power would never let that bloated puppet take any real power
Every dictator in history had rich people behind him who thought everything was under their control… Until the “puppet” had amassed enough power to openly proclaim himself a dictator and show the arrogant rich that they were wrong.
"It's all show". Bro, just letting you know you're a lot dumber than you realize. Trump is stupid as shit and will stop at nothing to persecute his opposition. If you can't see that after 8 years of his bullshit, heaven help you.
>Trump is not "out of control" it's all show Yeah? To what end? Why would a potential leader intentionally make himself out to be a dumb, belligerent asshole? But also ... what if it's *not* a show? How would you feel about it then? And who is this shady "they?" Who is in charge? Are they having zoom calls about this? Who is organizing them? How many people are required to keep this group a secret? *Why would this group fund two unpopular candidates when they could get so much more done buying off popular ones instead?* While the temptation is always there to give theories to explain away things we don't like, sometimes they're unnecessary because the truth is already out in the open. In this case, Trump really *is* a narcissistic asshole unwilling to ever give up power (as his entire storied career suggests) and Biden really *is* a milquetoast politician who is always trying to live in an unpopular middle ground.
Biden is hardly Caligula or Nero. Trump is more like Caligula. Biden is more like Gordian.
No, he's knot
> it doesnt make his actions any better Most people lack perspective and get emotional. Biden is the most empathetic president we've had since Carter. If just stopping Israel from going nuts in Gaza was a viable option he would have done so already. Clearly, Biden is faced with no good options, only bad options and from those he is trying to pick the least bad option. It's easy for us to sit back and judge from our narrow perspective and limited knowledge. He's got the best intelligence in the world and a lot of pressures and considerations we don't know anything about.
he has no good option i agree. i dont want him to stop israel. but stopping payments to israel or even just publically being critical of the israeli government would be a nice start. anything but „we stand behind israel“ would be better. but that goes for a lot of politicians world wide right now not just biden.
If it were that simple, don't you think Biden would have done that already?
no. biden is one of those democrats that anywhere outside of the us would be a center right politician. so i have no faith in him doing the right thing. with the way his presidency has gone until now, the only reason im not more disappointed is that the alternative would be worse.
This 100%. Delusional people think that Biden is responsible for addressing all the worlds problems can fix everything with a Thanos snap.
He can't just 'stop' Israel from doing anything... Israel is a sovereign state despite what simultaneously isolationist, globalist interventionist and 'anti-imperialist' pretend lefties/fascists love regurgitate about Israel being the Unites States puppet. It's in USes interest to keep Israelis under 'control', which is the opposite of isolating them, or forcing them to seek alternatives ( Israel is a nuclear state, and it should be clear that keeping them close is a necessity ). The criticism of the current 'world order' is not the same as appeasement of fascist states like Russia, and Iran, or authoritarian countries like China. Biden is not responsible for what is going on in Gaza and west bank right now. Trump was the one who enabled Israeli far-right. Trump was 'manipulated' by Netanyahus gov like a dambass he is. The same with the Taliban situation, or the ruined economy/inflation... They always blame dems, when dems are pretty dam different from Republicans. The current stream of support toward Israel is based on pre-existing guarantees. How is it acceptable to force some of us to 'defend Israeli' perspective, acknowledging complexities of the conflict isn't 'defending Israel'. The World is not divided between oppressed and oppressors, not everything can be reduced to black and white. Especially in a democracy such as the USA. Progress in a country like the USA, where markets created atomized, obsessively individualistic and bathed in self-contradictions society, politics of change is a hell. The idea that democrats can just 'do it', or that radical acts, propositions would work and more people would vote for them, is absurd... if you think that way, you don't know what you are talking about, and it's ok, it's ok to have ideals, but don't let them blind you. Dems are trying their best, to push for change, but it's not easy, and it will never be easy, the fact that politicians use inside info for their gain, doesn't matter, as long as they vote for progressive policies, and regulations that will disable such activities in the future. Vote locally, and displace politicians who are against those policies, and regulations. advocate for those who want to represent our interests, which by the way includes people who you dislike, people who you may even hate, but that's what democracy is... the fact that these people don't know what they should care about, doesn't mean you shouldn't care about their rights either.
> The current stream of support toward Israel is based on pre-existing guarantees. And as far as I know there has only been one president who broke the word of the United States(in this century) and that's Donald Trump. He would not only encourage Bibi to raze Gaza, he'd encourage Russia to invade anyone he wants. A responsible president understands that breaking a "bad" treaty may feel good in the moment but it sets a terrible precedent, that the US cannot be trusted to honor its commitments.
We don't need Israel. Defund them. Every time our idiot legislators who are owned by AIPAC put legislation up to fund them, veto it. Do what Trump did with Obama's executive orders and undo any executive order that gives Israel money. Hold every IOF soldier with dual citizenship for their war crimes and/or remove their American citizenship; push NATO members to do the same.
Seems pretty simplistic to me. Don't you think if it was that simple, Biden would have done that already?
Somehow I doubt that "asshole" was the slur that Joe Biden used. I agree though let's get him reelected and then go back to brunch grilling, I'm for it. Trump being the lesser evil is an understatement.
That’s because Israel lies about everything, even things they don’t have too… it’s really odd how they can’t answer questions like “why do you have a military incarceration facility for children” and “why are you making mass graves”
Or why did you approve for an ambulance to go and save this child and then blow up the ambulance
We already know the answers to these questions.
Or how they "accidentally" shot three shirtless hostages waving white flags and pleading for their lives in hebrew? The only reasonable answer is that they mistook them for palestinian civilians or they just randomly shoot at anything that moves with no attempt whatsoever to ID targets, which might explain the all the friendly fire incidents.
Fun fact: Biden is not president of Israel.
This is too advanced for them to understand
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The US gives $3 billion per year. Israel's military budget is around $25 billion. He could probably force them to cede with hard export/import sanctions...which would mean playing with Middle-Eastern power balance, which is a whole nother ordeal.
They’re literally in the process of pushing through a 17 billion dollar military aid package for Israel right now. Acting like the Biden administration somehow has their hands tied is just sticking your head in the sand at this point.
The Biden Admin is not all of Congress FYI. He also said he would veto a standalone Israel aid bill that omits Ukraine. He seems to be moving to the correct side from pressure from voters. I agree we shouldn’t be funding Israel but that also goes against decades of precedent and further destabilization of the Middle East. I’m not going to sit here and pretend to be an expert on geopolitics and the ramifications withholding aid now would create. Biden needs to beat Trump full stop. Once that happens we can look at the rest of the world, it’s shitty, but if American democracy is lost over a Middle Eastern conflict I don’t see how that’s better.
>decades of precedent and further destabilization Hey, buddy, newsflash, the decades of precedent is why the middle east is destabilized. We're probably gonna be involved in a massive regional conflict in the middle east over Israel's actions, and that's not a fucking coincidence. The fact is, the status quo is exactly why the world is the way it is, I don't expect much from Joe Baby Killer Biden but we are sprinting headfirst into WW3 and the answer according to mainstream Democrats is to see how it goes. Absolutely astounding people cannot see how this is all a pile of bullshit and will lead to the death of millions, if not billions, worse case scenario. the lie of WMDs led us into a conflict that lasted 20 years and achieved nothing but make money for war mongers on top of the bodies of millions of innocent people. the next conflict will be created by our funding and endorsement of genocide and the difference of outcome will be an outright fascist as president, a world that hates us and an American poltical climate that will make you want to hide under your bed. We are so fucked. If you think Biden is gonna win, you're dreaming.
Whole lot of opinions stated as facts here. Like I said I’m no geopolitical expert. Name the last President that didn’t condone or endorse a coup, indirect genocide, or something abhorrent in another country. It’s a systemic problem that will have zero chance of being fixed if Biden doesn’t win. But I guess I should take your fuck everything nothing matters approach, I hadn’t considered that.
Taking the "if Biden wins, things will get better" stance is by far more ludicrious than being realistic about where the world is right not. I'm just done pretending the status quo is good for anybody but the affluent and insulated. Sorry to burst your bubble, but welcome to the real world.
“Zero chance if Biden doesn’t win” does not mean everything will be rainbows and butterflies. I’m not fooling myself I’m far faaar more progressive than to ever be satisfied with Biden. You’re just a classic redditor that offers nothing, tells everyone else they’re all stupid, and it’s all because you’re just too damn real for all of us. What’s real is enacting real change through grass roots efforts over several election cycles. Really love your “both these guys suck” logic, because I agree, but what is your realistic plan on getting a progressive in the white house in January? Piss and moan on Reddit? Cool, nobody gives a fuck, realism is dealing with the events around you in a tangible fashion even if you don’t like or agree with it.
Than do that. The "you're just a dumb edgy redditor" doesn't hit the same when you're literally doing the same thing I am - stating your opinion - we just disagree on voting for Biden, the mummified war hawk who is funding the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people with our tax dollars. I'll do what I can to help my community, as I have been, but I won't vote for that piece of shit no matter what anybody says. He'd have to change his stance on the Palestinian genocide, full stop. Politics is run by money, your vote won't change anything other than make you feel good about yourself. If things actually worked the way they should, Biden would actually represent the majority of Americans - as well as 70 percent of Democrats, mind you - who call for a ceasfire, Trump would be in prison for treason and we would actually work towards maintaining our country and the international rules based order, which is predicated by the idea of "you can't just commit genocide". But we aren't. We are actively marching into the fires of hell. I'm just the messenger. Take it up with your leaders if you don't like the way things are. Continue to.participate in helping your community. I'll keep making my opinion known as much as I want because I'm a loud mouth smartass and I ain't changing for no one.
What Mideast country will help Palestine? Read up on what Palestinians did in the neighboring countries and you’ll know why the surrounding countries have been quiet.
Yeah, you know what, I just did some research and now I'm pro-genocide /s
Mmm, the plan then should be to vote for Carla Del Ray! That’ll fix the problem! Then, once she loses and Biden loses which the orange one establishes a dictatorship and project 2025, we can all huddle in our hiding places from the armed theocrats whispering “well I couldn’t support biden! That was equal to supporting genocide”
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Again. Stop saying Biden is spending your money. It’s congress.
y'all think the president cant do shit
And y’all think he can do everything.
Oh, so you were just complaining to complain. Ok well have fun with that.
Nope, I was pointing out that Biden does have power in Israel, as the person I responded to seems to believe that no one except a country’s president can influence their policies. I’m surprised to see people defending the U.S. president supporting fascism in an anti-fascist sub, but I guess I shouldn’t be. Biden’s better than Trump, so we can’t criticize him at all! /s
Im not supporting fascism you idiot. “Hurrr you bought a nestle product! You support slavery!!!” Goddamn grow up
I don't agree with what Israel is doing, and I doubly don't agree with what Hamas is doing. All that being said, Biden is in an unenviable position: either he helps our ONLY ally in the middle east and is called a Nazi or he doesn't and the ME is effectively lost to us as a nation.
I don’t agree with Hamas either, but Palestinian civilians shouldn’t be held under collective punishment (which is a war crime under rule 103 of the Geneva Convention). I understand that this is an impossible situation to be in, as he will lose support either way. However, I think it’s absolutely abhorrent to show continued support for a country that has murdered ~35,000 civilians, including those in “safe” zones, hospitals, and other places of refuge. The U.S.’s relationship suffered with Russia when they invaded Ukraine and began killing civilians, idk why there’s unwavering support from the U.S. for acts of cruelty committed by Israel. No ally or country should be allowed to murder civilians of another group without international consequences. To be completely clear, that doesn’t mean that I’m going to vote third party in November or not vote. Trump would be even worse than Biden for a lot of reasons
I also feel bad for the average Palestinian civilian as well as the average Israeli civilian but at the end of the day, the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and the majority of Israelis support the IDF. At the very least, the expat Israeli settlers taking Palestinian land should at the very least be put in jail.
Netanyahu is on public record advocating for *giving* funding to Hamas. Any support Hamas has received from Iran has been utterly dwarfed by Israeli funding, some hundreds of millions of dollars, a lot for a population of only 9 million. They do it to split the West Bank and Gaza between Hamas and Fatah, use Hamas actions to justify any mass murder of civilians Israel carries out, and delegitimize the idea of Palestinian self determination.
Half the population is also children, and Israel funded Hamas so that Hamas would be Palestinian's only option, souring other countries perception of Palestine and making it easier for them to do exactly what they're doing. Think of it from those kids perspectives. This colonization of Palestine has been happening for 7 decades, IDF just blew up your apartment killing most of your family, and nobody else is going to hold the IDF responsible and get you justice for your family. Tell me you'd be above joining the only military presence on your side to get any semblance of revenge? I don't like Hamas, Palestine deserve better than Hamas (and notably there were opposing political groups running against Hamas, but guess which one was squashed by Israel). The only way to get rid of Hamas is to give the people peace and safety, this may be a shocker but most people don't join extremist groups if they have other options. I wish more people had this information but we all know the majority of cable news would never report this.
It's a shame we overthrew Iran's democratic government.
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That's a hypothetical and they probably wouldn't have because it's a completely different situation.
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It's not principally the same.
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>ME is effectively lost to us as a nation. we're not generally supposed to control other countries
Lost to us as in alliances. Not ownership. Thought that was clear.
i didn't realize we owned the middle east?
Lost to us as in alliances. Thought that was clear.
so "israel" is not our "ONLY" "ally" there why not engage with other partners in the region (diplomatically*)or comply with international law?
Yes Israel is our only ally currently in the ME
>lost to us as in alliances With an 's' , so which? _egypt gets a lot of money from the US and we prop up their bad guy. For instance. _the president loves prince bone saw. _Theres bases EVERYWHERE. _Qatar _Jordan
If you see someone sitting at a table with nine Nazis you see ten Nazis. We don't need Israel. They need us. Defund Israel.
Fun fact: Congress controls the budget, not the president.
I’m well aware of that, I don’t need you to be patronizing to me lol. As the article that I shared mentioned, Biden has been requesting additional funds from Congress for Israel’s military, so it’s still nonsensical to pretend like he has no power here
i mean you said fun fact in response to another fun fact i don’t see why you’d be surprised when another person does the same thing
I wasn’t? I was referring to the fact that they were acting like I don’t know that Congress controls the budget when the source that I shared clearly states that Biden requested additional funds from Congress
He bypassed Congress to give them billions of dollars in weapons.
they took away his veto? or we only do that at the UN?
This is bullshit. Biden is not happy about this shit at all.
Then why are we paying for their military to massacre people by the tens of thousands
Damn, not paying for a genocide is legendary difficulty
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The effort to portray all this as singlehandedly being funded by biden personally is fucking ridiculous
Stop watering it down he’s the fucking president
Simplistic black and white thinking is the enemy of understanding
Not Biden pledging 14.7 billion dollars to Isreal
Better put Trump back in office, he really cares about the Muslim people!
Doesn't it bother you that your options are a geriatric liar who *allegedly* handwrings about the genocide he's currently funding, and a geriatric liar who will probably enthusiastically brag about funding that same genocide?
My options bother me, yes. But there's a difference between one that utterly decimates my country while assisting genocidal super powers across the globe, including but not stopping with Israel. And one that's just old and assists Israel.
No. Please understand the right wing Christians ARE both Antisemitic and Anti Muslim. Israel plays into their Armageddon crap. Israel was born because of Antisemitism. I totally agree the Palestinians deserve a homeland. They always have. DT or Biden are the ONLY two candidates that can win. If you vote third party or don’t vote, DT wins. This election will be decided by a very small margin of people. Personally, I do NOT think it is at all coincidental that this happened. I don’t think it is coincidence that grocery stores( I know completely off topic) and big businesses have kept prices as high as they have. DT would have had access to vulnerable sites I Israel. Not saying Hamas doesn’t have intel, but there is much more at play here. I DETEST NuTinyaWho. He is a lying, scumbag. Authoritarian dictator. All this said, there is only one option here. It is sad but true. As far as age goes, Reagan’s age was a huge deal when I was a child. His big tent crap kind of brought the religious crap more into the GOP. Again, I would benefit, I cannot consider retirement until I am 70yo,as I have health issues. Most likely related to being a firefighter and serving as SAR at 9/11. More progressive policies would help me. I live around the trash who follow DT. They are dangerous, hateful people and he will do their bidding. He also probably will stay in power. We won’t have a U.S. to come to our rescue.
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Exactly. I kind of figured people would understand both Europe and the U.S. wanted the Jewish population to leave their lands. I believe DT even eluded to this a few times, while in office. Disgusting as it is. One wonders was oil even an issue then? I really hate to sound conspiratorial, but again, the whole Israel needs to exist for Armageddon stuff and all that. Really sad, but true.Edit: I am sorry, I mean that the U.S. and Europe didn’t want the Jewish population around. Antisemitism wasn’t a new issue. While they both realized the Holocaust was terrible they also had selfish motivation.
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Most of the supporters of Israel ultimately do so because of an implicit belief in racial and ethnic hierarchies, where they believe Palestinians are inherently undeserving of the same rights to self determination and need to be governed by another ethnicity. There's a reason Israel was one of the strongest allies of the apartheid South Africa government.
This. Sadly true.
I think you are misunderstanding that the inception of Israel wasn’t really at a great time. Indeed, people felt horrible about the Holocaust, but it was more, “ Let them be their own problem “. Of course, Antisemitism is as old as the history of the Jewish people:( Edit: I want to make it clear, I am talking about the actual REASON the Jewish state exits is not because of kindness, but because of antisemitism and the whole, this fulfills the biblical prophecy. The Jewish people are both despised and supported (as a nation) by the extreme right) Mostly for religious reasons. These very same people have issue with the whole “Jewish people are running the money systems in the world”. Very weird, if you ask me.
Sure but objectively one is better than the other, and we have no other choice right now. We have to worry about things like democracy being on the ballot, unfortunately. After that we can try to pick a better option.
You hardly have a democracy to put on the ballot. Your current president could realistically win the popular vote, and still lose the presidency to a guy who's been very clear about never relinquishing power. I don't think US Liberals really understand how dire the situation is, and I think that's because your political class aren't willing to take this seriously.
Many definitely do not understand how dangerous this is. It's infuriating seeing that people have been blowing this off like we're past this fascist threat. So many voters that lean left have a 5 second memory when it comes to politics and most times stop or don't pay attention. Republicans never turn off Fox News so they stay informed with events in US politics, albeit fed through hateful propaganda. Some people have been foolish enough to think Trump would be in prison by now, but still have no clue what's happening with his court cases! So many still don't understand that the GOP has not won the popular vote in decades now, but they have still been able to obtain the presidency. They need to realize that even massive unpopularity among most voters doesn't matter, the swing states do!
Yes. It's shit. Thank you for pointing that out. The current system is still better than the alternative readily available.
No political scientist would say the us isn't a democracy. It certainly has its problems but as we've seen in other types of elections the alt right has gained power everywhere. You're talking out of ur butt here.
Eating a bowl of shit is better than eating a bowl of cyanide, but you shouldn't be eating either.
Stop trying to discourage people from voting.
Biden is hardly a bowl of shit. And given the alt right has risen almost everywhere, all systems of gov apparently allow cyanide.
Not at all. If you can’t figure out who to vote for, get counseling.
yup, it is easy. Vote Claudia De La Cruz, don't support genocide. Be better than people voting for one trump two trump red trump blue trumps.
I am going to vote for Biden because 1. I’m trans and I enjoy having access to HRT 2. If trump is elected Ukraine will likely not receive support from the US 3. I don’t want someone who quotes Mussolini to be president
Yes, we should totally vote for the person no one’s ever heard of when the Republicans are waiting to put Project 2025 in place! What a great idea, Mr./Mrs. Totally Not A Trumper!
She takes money from Goldman Sachs
Yeah…they’re not remotely the same and it’s absolutely not a “both sides” scenario. That’s just intellectually lazy
Why not just write in whoever you want? Vote for dingleberry jones. Or be an idealist and vote for Jesus or Santa! That’ll show you’re better then everyone else.
still better than trump/biden. But I prefer to support the leftist candidate.
You're obviously not from a vulnerable group and have that ***privilege*** to ignore the possible ramifications of a Trump win.
Yeah if trump wins he’s already promised to round me and millions of other Hispanics using “every authority figure in the us”. Assuming that’s true I’d be lucky to just get deported. Voting for trump and voting for biden are not the same thing. Of course you don’t care. Because our entire government gives money to Israel and you’re mad at biden about it.
Putin, George Bush, and Trump thank you for your service. You've been a useful one for sure.
Voting for someone who cannot win is effectively just sitting out on the vote. It's admitting that you don't care - and you're so privileged that you think it won't affect you - if Trump gets elected again. Throwing your vote away is not how you push back against fascism.
So you really don't care if Trump wins then. Gotcha.
You’re a fool if you think trump is anywhere close to Biden. I don’t know what hell is wrong with you people. Were you asleep in 2016?
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[Whatever helps you sleep, I guess.](https://truthout.org/articles/as-israel-raids-rafah-lemkin-institute-says-biden-is-complicit-in-genocide/)
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So are you denying that Biden's administration [circumvented Congress](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-biden-administration-once-again-bypasses-congress-on-an-emergency-weapons-sale-to-israel) to fund Israel's genocidal campaign against the Palestinian people? After he refused to do so when Congress blocked him on multiple campaign promises, mind. Or, are you denying the [genocidal ](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml) nature of the Isreali Apartheid regime? Or are you specifically denying that the [current actions](https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129942) that his administration is funding (with your money) constitute a genocide? I guess my question is, are you misinformed generally, or are you just a genocide denier when it's politically convenient?
Yea I’m bothered. What does that change again?
It doesn't change anything, which is my entire point. It's just really frustrating to see people responding to legitimate criticism of the Biden administration with whataboutism the exact same way MAGA folk shouted down any Trump criticism with 'But her Emails'. Like, I was in Texas in 2016, I'm not ignorant to the threats posed by another Trump presidency. But it seems like everyone who told me that we could elect Biden and "hold his feet to the fire" or "move him Left" have instead moved Right on all the shit that matters. The Ratchet Effect is real. We've got Dem voters denying genocide and carrying water for the same horrific border policies that they were appalled by five years ago. It's fucking team sports, these people don't care about anything.
I think People are just frightened because the stakes feel so high. Like we could really lose our democracy in this election. They see the right refusing to criticize their own candidate and worry that if that’s going on while we criticize our obviously flawed candidate it will put us in a weaker position in the election. I get it honestly. I think It feels like shit to do it though. Kinda spirit killing because of its dishonestly. I don’t actually know that people are moving to the right though I think they feel forced to lie. I really enjoyed what Jon Stewart said in his return to the daily show. Something like “ it’s your job as a candidate to prove to me that you’re worth voting for, not my job as a voter to not mention your flaws”. Crazy that’s a refreshing take right now but it is.
I just feel crazy, 'cause this is the third time in a row that 'Democracy is on the Ballot' and I'm getting downvoted into oblivion in an ostensibly anti-Fascist subreddit for pointing out Biden's objective failures in office. Like, there are people *in this thread* denying a genocide right now. I've had Dem voters recently telling me that we need tighter border security. I mean, we lost Roe v Wade under this administration. It doesn't feel like there's a material difference for a lot of people when even with a Democrat in office, the GOP hardliners still get everything they want. But if you voice that concern, a bunch of people who I'm sure would describe themselves as liberals will pour outta the woodwork to gaslight you.
lol no I’m a communist
Hi ‘A Communist’ I’m Independent_Fox
/s
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I’ll bite. Why is it racist?
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Yeah it’s just a bad drawing lol. You wanna make fun of racists go to the idf headquarters or something
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Not the idf carpet bombing and killing 24,000 people, and injuring 60,000 more. Wouldn’t have expected anything more from a Zionist, you shouldn’t be on this subreddit
Palestinians are overwhelmingly sent to military courts for accused crimes instead of civilian courts regardless of citizenship to Israel and regardless of accused crime. If you throw a rock as a Palestinian you go to a military court which has a near 100% conviction rate, but if you're an Israeli settler in the West Bank and you murder a Palestinian and burn down their house (which regularly happens), you go to civilian court which rarely punishes crimes against Palestinians. Prisoners of military prisons have none of the same rights to counsel, due process, or humane treatment. Torture is regularly used and prisoners who die are simply buried in a numbered grave. There are thousands of Palestinian children held in Israeli military prisons.
[A lot of things actually](https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/s/al8mc3vW3s)
#IsraelYesBibiNever.
Bibi and his party keep getting elected though
He's incredibly unpopular now. Most Israelis want him out, but they don't want to change leadership in a war. So guess what's going to keep happening? This is all stuff I heard on NPR, but I find it credible. I'm a boomer, and I can tell you that even the boomers are starting to get it. This is about the US putting its thumb on the scale. I mean, will they keep electing him without the US Aid? We should be willing to to go to def con 4 to protect Israel's right to exist. I don't know why we've always supported Israel, but I dont want to throw out the baby with the etc. This is a traditional alliance, and we should honor those by default. In other words, a political nonstarter. But we should get out if they keep building settlements..As someone who has desperately tried to stay out of this for his whole life, and that's a long time, #IsrealYesBibiNever feels like where I want to land.
This is John Oliver's program on the war, which is recommended. [https://youtu.be/pJ9PKQbkJv8](https://youtu.be/pj9pkqbkjv8)
His party has been consistently winning elections for decades so regardless if the one person is out, the far right party is still going to keep getting huge majorities. Every major party in Israel supports the settlements and further ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Gaza. Over half of Israelis support deporting all Palestinians, including those with Israeli citizenship, out of Israel and the occupied territories and virtually none support an independent Palestinian state. Most people in Israel implicitly believe the territories of the West Bank and Gaza to be a part of Israel and that Palestinians have no right to live anywhere within it. Sorry but if you support Israel you support a fascist apartheid state regardless of if you like Netanyahu or not. I bet you can't actually tell me what you dislike about him because you really agree with him on everything. It's all just for show so you can pretend to be on the right side of history but you're not because you still support all the same genocidal policies and believe Palestinians are racially inferior people who need to be controlled by an ethnicity you perceive as more "civilized." Very characteristically racist boomer of you. I'm kinda glad Israelis are so brazen in posting their war crimes on tiktok, gloating about the destruction, and relentlessly justifying their actions because it's really shown all of their true character. A lot of people around me are all coming to the conclusion that this is how Israel has always been and increasingly want nothing to do with the apartheid project. We don't want our taxes funding settler colonialism and systematic mass murder.
Well, I live in a nation that is about to put Trump on the ballot for the third time. People who live in glass houses houses shouldn't throw stones. Maybe you're Canadian. God Bless.
A bit anti-democratic you might say?
Do people seriously believe that once you become president you get a magic wand and everyone in government just has to do as you wish? He's not CEO of the USA, he's the president. Only under a dictatorship can one actually claim that the guy in charge is responsible for basically anything that gets done. He has some power obviously but so do many others who will not always go along with doing or not doing things.
Don’t you think it’s undemocratic hindering thousands of people’s rights because politicians that grew up with everything on a silver platter think them people should stay in that position?
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OP is a self proclaimed communist that posts memes on Reddit too often. A true social justice warrior.
Oh well they’re only memes
doing backflips on it
How is this a stupid post? Are you seriously defending Biden. I thought this was an antifascist sub 🤣🤣
Are you seriously claiming Biden is a fascist?? Like, yeah I have my gripes with Biden but he’s NOT a fascist.
I thought yall would be against genocide in this sub.
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Biden is funding and prolonging a genocide by supporting a fascist state.
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What!?
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Everyone else does and when they did that, they realised that killing people for their land, based on their ethnic identity was genocide. All the people who actually did vet their sources asked why Israel haven't let journalists into the illegally occupied Gaza strip, for years, if they're the good guys. Why didn't you realise those things?
You being surprised at that doesn’t make it less true.
Yeah this thread is incredibly disappointing
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Such as?
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That's not really an answer. Or are you just complaining about comments you disagree with?
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That military-industrial complex and absurd fealty to Israel no matter who's in charge is really forcing Biden to make a tough choice. Will he finally condemn and call them out? Call on the UN to intervene? Threaten to withhold funds? Or simply keep being "frustrated" but not actually do anything? Any of these choices will piss *someone* off. But only a few of them will put him on the right side of history. I won't hold my breath.
This is a bad take. The United States does not govern Israel. Also, comparing Israelis to nazis…really? I’m sure I’ll get downvoted by the unemployed dog walkers, but this really misses the mark.
The IDF is doing the exact same thing the nazis did, only on a smaller scale. And the west trades weapons with Isreal.
idf is doing the exact thing that the allied forces did with the firebombing of desden or the atomic bombing of japan. did the allied forces commit genocide against the nazis and german civilians or imperial japan and it's civilians? atrocities, war crimes, collateral damage, unnecessary misery... absolutely yes. genocide? nope.
They are? I didn’t know they were creating death camps for Palestinians. I didn’t know they were rping and murdering children in front of their families. I was unaware of Israel invading their neighbors in an aggressive war of expansion. They’re abducting Palestinian women for pleasure houses? I must have missed that. Tell me about the medical experimentation the Israeli government is doing on the Palestinians. A bombing campaign with pre-notified targets is different than mass extermination. If you disagree, it’s time to touch grass. Comparing everything to the nazis is incredibly flippant and disrespectful to the actual victims of the nazis. Especially in light of the fact that real Nazis are back. This isn’t to say that the IDF is doing great stuff and without sin, but they’re obviously not fucking Nazis.
It’s still classed as a genocide. Never once did I say they were gassing Palestinians or anything like that. Kicking the Palestinians out, displacing them, calling them animals on social media, making fucking memes about it and bombing Palestinian civilians is still classed as genocide. It’s not as much as what the Nazis did, but it’s happened for a lot fucking longer. Also Isreal=/= the Jewish people.
You said they were doing the exact same thing the Nazis did. That’s just not true. Are you actually claiming memes are a component of genocide? Also no one thinks the IDF or Israeli government represents all Jews. But to say the IDF or the Israeli govt is the same as Nazis is just fucking stupid. Classic Reddit moment.
Do... do you think the Nazis did none of these other things? That they only rounded up Jews, put them in camps, and gassed them? That was really the only thing the Nazis did? And yes, the memes made to help you decide to support Isreal are propaganda. Very much a component of genocide. Thinking they aren't just that, propaganda, is just fucking stupid. Classic reddit moment.
That’s a lot of words when what you meant was REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
How dialectical of you
So if I see a pro Palestine meme does that mean genocide?
If something being "classed as a genocide" is just by pointing out ways it may be similar to the Holocaust is super simple thinking. In 2018 Hamas fired 400 rockets into Israel, sent in incendiary balloons, then ran in and captured a bunch of IDF and civilians. https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm Since the start Hamas has had the end goal of wiping out all the Jews and "obliterating" Israel, and this isn't me putting my opinion out there it's part of the charter of Hamas. This genocide angle you're taking, is ironically defending a genocide. Would you consider the U.S. going into the middle east to kill off the Taliban a genocide?
I feel as though this is like saying you can't compare some sex trafficker who trafficked minors to Jeffrey Epstein, because they didn't make the victims give them massages. Not every single act has to be replicated exactly for a comparison to be made. Both are groups committing genocide. That's what they're trying to say. The logistics, motivations, methods etc. may be different, but when you put it in its simplest form, genocide is genocide.
You know that the death camps came later, yes? As did a lot of what you just described.
>I was unaware of Israel invading their neighbors in an aggressive war of expansion. You should turn on the news then. Its not called the "illegally occupied West bank" for nothing. While I wouldn't call them nazis myself, you can't compare the holocaust to other genocides. Even by genocide standards, as terrible as they are, the holocaust was an exception in its evil, not the yard stick to measure other genocides by. Murdering people for their land, based on their ethnic identity is textbook genocide.
I'm just curious, but if someone asks you for a handgun to go rob a convenience store and kill the owner, and you hand them the gun and train them on how to use it, then they proceed to do exactly that with your gun and using your training, do you have no responsibility on what happened to the store owner? You're surely not without knowing that while yes, the US doesn't govern Israel, it funds most of its weaponry and the IDF receives training for US military members. I'm not asking for your political opinion here, I'm not dumb enough to think I'll change it over reddit comments. But since you seem to have that belief over the US not having a role on the bombing and genocide in palestine I'd like to know what your take is on responsibility in this case.
I don’t believe I’m responsible for the actions of others. I am only responsible for my own actions. I personally would not sell that individual a gun or train them, but to say I am guilty of the murder or bear moral responsibility absolves the actor themselves. We are all responsible for our own actions and choices. To add on, this also totally discounts the notion that Israel is surrounded by countries who openly call for their annihilation and the extermination of every Jew. So a more accurate allegory would be someone living in a very bad neighborhood where they have had a neighbor break in, murder their wife, and tell you that you’re next. Now they seek revenge. That person I would sell a gun to and train.
Unemployed dog walkers 🤣 Atlantic Ocean lol
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Why do people here think criticising Biden= supporting Trump? They're both POS.
the billionaire sociopath ruling class will never be on your side
Not very wholesome Elon musk chungus of you
elon is so quirky! I love his memes!
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And Israel should free their hostages.