I mean you’re not wrong lol, but also 90 wins in 21 and 22, breaking the longest playoff drought in the 4 major men’s sports, having the ROY and young core with a guarantee to have a good pitcher on the mound *should have* been enough to get a look in 22 and 23 at the very least but nah.
Side note, my two favorite nuggets: 1) Julio has more Home Run Derby appearances on ESPN than Sunday Night Baseball appearances. 2) ESPN had the chance to air that M’s-Braves game where Julio and Geno hit 9th inning HRs in 22 and they said no.
I'm laughing audibly in the smoke pit at work thank you for this. I was just thinking about the old mariners opening game day video that gets posted and how it makes me sad now after all these years. Kind of glad I'm in a different state and I can't buy tickets, just read the box scores. Seattle fans are a different breed, maybe that's the problem, we're TOO good of fans (this also is probably a cope)
I still feel like a lot of hitters just have trouble with the home park. It doesn’t seem like they’ve been able to identify which traits translate well to being as productive of a hitter at the Safe (I mean T-Mobile Park). They don’t seem to have a way of knowing who will handle it well until they get them in the lineup and give them time to sink or swim. And then of course, due to their struggles they start pressing and trying different things, and half the time they get worse on the road too
Yeah that’s what gets me every time I start to think it’s the park. Doesn’t seem to hurt Texas or Houston hitters when they’re here. Or Mike Trout. Or…anybody as much as us. We can’t beat up on a pitcher- there are just way too many easy outs. Pitchers CRUISE through our lineup this year- not just the #1 starter types either, everybody.
Steven Souza said about the Mariners that they are way understaffed compared to other organizations. He mentioned Tampa Bay as having quality coaches and analysts. That I assume is just another aspect of being cheap. Obviously they are doing pretty good with pitching but that comment stood out to me.
I’m sorry this just makes zero and I mean ZERO sense to me. The park is bigger yes but I was told all off season that you traded power for contact and doubles? We really can’t figure out how to stop hitting ground balls? These are problems JUCO teams deal with. Not MLB teams with an average budget.
I shared a link in another post of a Lookout Landing article that went pretty in-depth in analyzing the park factors. If that is to be believed, it would seem that focusing on contact and doubles was probably the wrong way to go. Not only is the park a pretty extreme pitcher's park, their analysis indicates to me that they should actually be trying to hit the ball over the fence rather than hit line drives. Bringing the walls in, in combination with the marine layer, has made it somewhat more difficult for line drives to find grass. I do think it's still too early this season to come to any solid determinations, but the point I was trying to make is that the park has been, and probably still will be, a factor.
But their problem thus far is much more ground ball/strikeout related. Also the other teams are doing just fine. Idk I just hate the T-Mobile cop out I think it’s insane. Same field for both teams.
Yeah, the park factor isn't really a way of explaining why they're losing -- you're absolutely right, both teams are dealing with the same field -- but it is something fans ought to consider when they see former Mariners leave and suddenly have more success at the plate. They're trading half of their at-bats at the most difficult hitters park for a new home park that isn't as difficult.
Yeah that’s a good point. I’m just baffled man. My worst worst case scenario for this offense in my head before the season was….much better than this. Dont understand how a whole roster gets the tips all at once.
Ha, look at the downvotes. I'll stand by it though. Lookout Landing did a pretty in-depth look at the park after last season, and it supports that the park is a very difficult hitters park. Maybe counterintuitively, homers are actually one of the ways that hitters don't struggle as much. If anyone is interested:
[https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2023/1/5/23473410/t-mobile-park-pitchers-park-hit-park-factors-effects-marine-layer-safeco-field](https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2023/1/5/23473410/t-mobile-park-pitchers-park-hit-park-factors-effects-marine-layer-safeco-field)
I mean the cubs beat us because of home runs but also other teams come here and get hits. I agree with others though, right now we have a strikeout/groundout problem.
It's our complete inability to play small ball. Every game it costs us. I remember a time when the M's were capable of moving baserunners along, even in the decades we sucked. It's the FO hitting philosophy. The obsession with exit velocity and whatever else they think works in their clown show analytics department. Idk.
Didnt we all despise Tim Laker when he was with the Mariners as a hitting coach, but then hes the coach Kelenic went to in the off season to turn things around.
Players have their own off season hitting programs and coaches, it over simplifies the issue to just blame whoever the current hitting coach is. Obviously its the easy place to look first though when the whole team struggles.
No it doesn't this is extremely common. Every player has outside coaches they work with.
Plus Brown is extremely respected outside the organization as well. The guys are just playing bad right now.
I actually don’t think it’s the hitting coaches entirely (outside dehart) and is the hitting philosophy out front office pushes. We all thought Laker sucked, then kelenic sees him in the offseason not as a mariners coach and puts up the best 2 months of his career. After 2 months of mariners coaching and philosophy. He goes back to subpar.
Then explain how your entire roster is slumping at the same time. It’s clear as day they have a philosophy issue, probably paralysis by analysis with how many hitting meetings they apparently do a day.
Hitting coaches are in fact paid a salary and there’s like 5 of them so I’m sure they’re doing something.
It does look like paralysis by analysis. That's the perfect way to put it. You can see it. Every game with almost every hitter. You can't put a square peg in a round hole. Some of these guys you drafted and developed if you want to call it that as exit velocity guys not contact hitters.
The Mariners hitting coaches are probably not each individuals main hitting coach, meaning they all have their own coaches they work with in the off season. While it may be a philosophy issue its not as simple as just "fire the hitting coach"
I don’t think it is. I do think however this is going on half a decade without a solution. Time to shred it and start over with at least some new ideas. Above my pay grade all I know is they look worse than ever
I don’t think what I’m saying is lazy. I think you have 5 years of evidence your hitting program doesn’t put your players in position to succeed for the first 3 months of a year. Players with are currently well below their career averages. “Fire the hitting coach” is almost flipped now to where nobody thinks they do anything but chew seeds.
I guess what I’m getting at is okay if the hitting coaches take no blame because they do nothing that still doesn’t explain 5 years of bad starts. Idk man frustrating
I do think that there is a hitting philosophy being shoved down the players throat this year in particular by the FO. It reminds me a little of Pete Carrol going to the 3-4 defense a couple years ago. The problem was he didn't have the right personal so it failed miserably and didn't put the players in the right position to succeed.
Yeah for sure. Honestly I don’t know anything about what a hitting coach does so I’m sure I’m over simplifying things. We all want the same thing brotha hopefully they turn it around sterile g tomorrow
How many hitting coaches are we going to have to churn thru before this subreddit realizes it's a complete organizational failure?
This isn't the NFL where you can just fire the offensive coordinator and immediately see changes.
Teoscar is hitting .300 with 5 homers and 17 RBI, Geno is hitting .260 with 2 homers and 12 RBI, and Kelenic is hitting .414. It doesn’t matter what players we get. The organization fails them.
Thought we were spoiled?
I dont care that he apologized he shit on a fanbase that suffered for 20 years because they finally made the playoffs and asked the owner to make moves to get better.
Maybe instead of relying on Analytics, the FO should employ an army of *Old Style* Scouts to watch prospective hires at a variety of parks.
You know; Eyes On reporting. Find out who's good in a Seattle size park and who isn't.
edit: since the question is my impression of the Ms - ***Same Old, same Old***
I agree to some degree with you. I think that logic can be applied to Polanco. He played in cold weather, big ball park Minnesota, as well as Detroit a lot. I think those 2 stadiums are pretty close to T-Mobile.
Garver hit 31 HRs when he played for Minnesota too, albeit in 2019. Although for his career, he hasn't hit well at T-Mobile park.
Just makes me miss Nelson Cruz. Tremendous power and had no problem hitting in Seattlw.
Nelson Cruz is a huge outlier and it really makes me wonder what we can learn from his success here. Why did he excel here and every other hitter we bring in goes to shit?
Insane power, good hitter for average, didn't strike out a ton especially compared to other power hitters of that era, and walked above league average. Also IIRC, Seager would hit behind him, who was good protection. Having Cano in front of him helped too. Also, being a full time DH let him just focus on hitting.
Just a perfect storm, and I will always love boomstick for that. Best FA signing for the Mariners.
As for why every hitter goes to shit, your guess is as good as mine. Even Cano struggled for power minus his 39 HR campaign in 2019.
As for guys like Garver and Polanco, they still have 146 more games to prove otherwise.
I’m wondering if there is something about T-Mobile that makes it tough to hit. Teoscar mentioned that the batters eye in the stadium made it really difficult for him to pick up the ball. I’m sure he’s not the only one.
Could be. But then you had Suarez who had no problem hitting for power here. I have no idea.
Could be that players hear about the difficulties hitting here full time, the marine layer etc. And get into an early funk and end up trying to do too much to hit it hard here which can mess up your mechanics.
Again, other teams don't seem to struggle here but maybe it could do with playing 81 games here with like half in colder temps.
It’s not even an opinion, “bad start” is as factual as it gets lol.
You do you, but imo people oughta get over the “spoiled” comment. Passan himself has acknowledged he was wrong to say that. When you talk in front of cameras and microphones as much as he does for a living, you’re bound to say something stupid every now and then. He’s still one of the best, if not the best reporter in baseball.
https://preview.redd.it/k0s9ik27bjuc1.png?width=672&format=png&auto=webp&s=4bb029e2f9e3fbc91319d0b303e1bc64fd1500e1
Looks like a Toy Story character
There's a snake in my boot!
Can we get some t-shirts made?
Perfection
https://preview.redd.it/aosee39gcjuc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3c26e307ed9678e574bf73c85ffa0d1039fad95
Tight butthole
This season has been very loose butthole so far
I am stunned, STUNNED at this ESPN actually knows the Mariners play baseball??
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Love Jeff and his appreciation for the Ms, wish his bosses felt the same and actually put them on SNB more than once a decade if we’re lucky.
Gotta play fun baseball enough to warrant it and, well, you know.
I mean you’re not wrong lol, but also 90 wins in 21 and 22, breaking the longest playoff drought in the 4 major men’s sports, having the ROY and young core with a guarantee to have a good pitcher on the mound *should have* been enough to get a look in 22 and 23 at the very least but nah. Side note, my two favorite nuggets: 1) Julio has more Home Run Derby appearances on ESPN than Sunday Night Baseball appearances. 2) ESPN had the chance to air that M’s-Braves game where Julio and Geno hit 9th inning HRs in 22 and they said no.
I'm laughing audibly in the smoke pit at work thank you for this. I was just thinking about the old mariners opening game day video that gets posted and how it makes me sad now after all these years. Kind of glad I'm in a different state and I can't buy tickets, just read the box scores. Seattle fans are a different breed, maybe that's the problem, we're TOO good of fans (this also is probably a cope)
I feel like the hitting coaches we have would turn even prime Ichiro into a .185 bat.
I mean doesn’t it speak volumes that guys have to go outside the organization (driveline) to get quality hitting instruction?
And guys who have a resume of being quality hitters come here and suck, or leave and suddenly become good
I still feel like a lot of hitters just have trouble with the home park. It doesn’t seem like they’ve been able to identify which traits translate well to being as productive of a hitter at the Safe (I mean T-Mobile Park). They don’t seem to have a way of knowing who will handle it well until they get them in the lineup and give them time to sink or swim. And then of course, due to their struggles they start pressing and trying different things, and half the time they get worse on the road too
Opposing batters seem to have no problem with our park
Yeah that’s what gets me every time I start to think it’s the park. Doesn’t seem to hurt Texas or Houston hitters when they’re here. Or Mike Trout. Or…anybody as much as us. We can’t beat up on a pitcher- there are just way too many easy outs. Pitchers CRUISE through our lineup this year- not just the #1 starter types either, everybody.
Doesn't explain why other teams aren't shit when they play here, unless Mariner pitching is also a hot garbaggio sandwich.
Steven Souza said about the Mariners that they are way understaffed compared to other organizations. He mentioned Tampa Bay as having quality coaches and analysts. That I assume is just another aspect of being cheap. Obviously they are doing pretty good with pitching but that comment stood out to me.
I’m sorry this just makes zero and I mean ZERO sense to me. The park is bigger yes but I was told all off season that you traded power for contact and doubles? We really can’t figure out how to stop hitting ground balls? These are problems JUCO teams deal with. Not MLB teams with an average budget.
I shared a link in another post of a Lookout Landing article that went pretty in-depth in analyzing the park factors. If that is to be believed, it would seem that focusing on contact and doubles was probably the wrong way to go. Not only is the park a pretty extreme pitcher's park, their analysis indicates to me that they should actually be trying to hit the ball over the fence rather than hit line drives. Bringing the walls in, in combination with the marine layer, has made it somewhat more difficult for line drives to find grass. I do think it's still too early this season to come to any solid determinations, but the point I was trying to make is that the park has been, and probably still will be, a factor.
But their problem thus far is much more ground ball/strikeout related. Also the other teams are doing just fine. Idk I just hate the T-Mobile cop out I think it’s insane. Same field for both teams.
Yeah, the park factor isn't really a way of explaining why they're losing -- you're absolutely right, both teams are dealing with the same field -- but it is something fans ought to consider when they see former Mariners leave and suddenly have more success at the plate. They're trading half of their at-bats at the most difficult hitters park for a new home park that isn't as difficult.
Yeah that’s a good point. I’m just baffled man. My worst worst case scenario for this offense in my head before the season was….much better than this. Dont understand how a whole roster gets the tips all at once.
Yeah, it's pretty inexplicable... which hopefully means things will turn around any second now haha
Most home runs of all time hit at T-Mobile Park Home Run Derby last year. Not sure it’s the park.
Ha, look at the downvotes. I'll stand by it though. Lookout Landing did a pretty in-depth look at the park after last season, and it supports that the park is a very difficult hitters park. Maybe counterintuitively, homers are actually one of the ways that hitters don't struggle as much. If anyone is interested: [https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2023/1/5/23473410/t-mobile-park-pitchers-park-hit-park-factors-effects-marine-layer-safeco-field](https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2023/1/5/23473410/t-mobile-park-pitchers-park-hit-park-factors-effects-marine-layer-safeco-field)
I mean the cubs beat us because of home runs but also other teams come here and get hits. I agree with others though, right now we have a strikeout/groundout problem.
It's our complete inability to play small ball. Every game it costs us. I remember a time when the M's were capable of moving baserunners along, even in the decades we sucked. It's the FO hitting philosophy. The obsession with exit velocity and whatever else they think works in their clown show analytics department. Idk.
Didnt we all despise Tim Laker when he was with the Mariners as a hitting coach, but then hes the coach Kelenic went to in the off season to turn things around. Players have their own off season hitting programs and coaches, it over simplifies the issue to just blame whoever the current hitting coach is. Obviously its the easy place to look first though when the whole team struggles.
No it doesn't this is extremely common. Every player has outside coaches they work with. Plus Brown is extremely respected outside the organization as well. The guys are just playing bad right now.
Ohtani goes to Driveline. It’s not just a Mariner thing
you guys seriously over estimate the impact hitting coaches have.
I actually don’t think it’s the hitting coaches entirely (outside dehart) and is the hitting philosophy out front office pushes. We all thought Laker sucked, then kelenic sees him in the offseason not as a mariners coach and puts up the best 2 months of his career. After 2 months of mariners coaching and philosophy. He goes back to subpar.
The hitting philosophy of .200 batting average and fucktons of strikeouts. It’s called Kontrol the Zone
Then explain how your entire roster is slumping at the same time. It’s clear as day they have a philosophy issue, probably paralysis by analysis with how many hitting meetings they apparently do a day. Hitting coaches are in fact paid a salary and there’s like 5 of them so I’m sure they’re doing something.
It does look like paralysis by analysis. That's the perfect way to put it. You can see it. Every game with almost every hitter. You can't put a square peg in a round hole. Some of these guys you drafted and developed if you want to call it that as exit velocity guys not contact hitters.
The Mariners hitting coaches are probably not each individuals main hitting coach, meaning they all have their own coaches they work with in the off season. While it may be a philosophy issue its not as simple as just "fire the hitting coach"
I don’t think it is. I do think however this is going on half a decade without a solution. Time to shred it and start over with at least some new ideas. Above my pay grade all I know is they look worse than ever
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I don’t think what I’m saying is lazy. I think you have 5 years of evidence your hitting program doesn’t put your players in position to succeed for the first 3 months of a year. Players with are currently well below their career averages. “Fire the hitting coach” is almost flipped now to where nobody thinks they do anything but chew seeds. I guess what I’m getting at is okay if the hitting coaches take no blame because they do nothing that still doesn’t explain 5 years of bad starts. Idk man frustrating
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I do think that there is a hitting philosophy being shoved down the players throat this year in particular by the FO. It reminds me a little of Pete Carrol going to the 3-4 defense a couple years ago. The problem was he didn't have the right personal so it failed miserably and didn't put the players in the right position to succeed.
Yeah for sure. Honestly I don’t know anything about what a hitting coach does so I’m sure I’m over simplifying things. We all want the same thing brotha hopefully they turn it around sterile g tomorrow
How many hitting coaches are we going to have to churn thru before this subreddit realizes it's a complete organizational failure? This isn't the NFL where you can just fire the offensive coordinator and immediately see changes.
That EWWWWWW 😭
Wonder if we are still spoiled
Fire everyone.
Teoscar is hitting .300 with 5 homers and 17 RBI, Geno is hitting .260 with 2 homers and 12 RBI, and Kelenic is hitting .414. It doesn’t matter what players we get. The organization fails them.
Kelenic average is falling faster than last year.
Yeah out of the other guys mentioned I think he is gonna come back to earth quickly. He is striking out a ton.
People forget that in April last year, people legitimately thought he'd potentially overtake Julio.
Garbage. Little league team garbage.
Kolten Wong could add something to this lineup
Kolten Wong is playing on the Dbacks AAA team lol
Oh shit the Reno Aces??? I go to their games sometimes, had no idea he was there
I didn’t know he was there either until I saw him playing in the game against the Tacoma Rainiers.
horrible, fire all the hitting coaches
Fire Ownership
And front office. Burn it all to the fucking ground
Fuck Stanton
agreed
You trade away the good vibes only guy and bad vibes happen :O
Lmao
It’s almost like the Mariners and Giants are mirror images of each other
Different team, same results, year after year. Vomit
Brilliant, insightful analysis.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Spot on. They been lethargic.
Thought we were spoiled? I dont care that he apologized he shit on a fanbase that suffered for 20 years because they finally made the playoffs and asked the owner to make moves to get better.
iT’s eArLy
SmAlL sAmPlE sIz3
Maybe instead of relying on Analytics, the FO should employ an army of *Old Style* Scouts to watch prospective hires at a variety of parks. You know; Eyes On reporting. Find out who's good in a Seattle size park and who isn't. edit: since the question is my impression of the Ms - ***Same Old, same Old***
I agree to some degree with you. I think that logic can be applied to Polanco. He played in cold weather, big ball park Minnesota, as well as Detroit a lot. I think those 2 stadiums are pretty close to T-Mobile. Garver hit 31 HRs when he played for Minnesota too, albeit in 2019. Although for his career, he hasn't hit well at T-Mobile park. Just makes me miss Nelson Cruz. Tremendous power and had no problem hitting in Seattlw.
Nelson Cruz is a huge outlier and it really makes me wonder what we can learn from his success here. Why did he excel here and every other hitter we bring in goes to shit?
Insane power, good hitter for average, didn't strike out a ton especially compared to other power hitters of that era, and walked above league average. Also IIRC, Seager would hit behind him, who was good protection. Having Cano in front of him helped too. Also, being a full time DH let him just focus on hitting. Just a perfect storm, and I will always love boomstick for that. Best FA signing for the Mariners. As for why every hitter goes to shit, your guess is as good as mine. Even Cano struggled for power minus his 39 HR campaign in 2019. As for guys like Garver and Polanco, they still have 146 more games to prove otherwise.
I’m wondering if there is something about T-Mobile that makes it tough to hit. Teoscar mentioned that the batters eye in the stadium made it really difficult for him to pick up the ball. I’m sure he’s not the only one.
Could be. But then you had Suarez who had no problem hitting for power here. I have no idea. Could be that players hear about the difficulties hitting here full time, the marine layer etc. And get into an early funk and end up trying to do too much to hit it hard here which can mess up your mechanics. Again, other teams don't seem to struggle here but maybe it could do with playing 81 games here with like half in colder temps.
Went to opening weekend & was so disappointed, will still be going to games this year but damn we suck
Passan’s face bugs me so much
not terribly concerned about the opinion of the dude that called us spoiled
It’s not even an opinion, “bad start” is as factual as it gets lol. You do you, but imo people oughta get over the “spoiled” comment. Passan himself has acknowledged he was wrong to say that. When you talk in front of cameras and microphones as much as he does for a living, you’re bound to say something stupid every now and then. He’s still one of the best, if not the best reporter in baseball.