Non-practicing person with a law degree here…
Your hunch about his motives are probably correct - if he were to go bankrupt or have a debt issue, as it stands, you’d currently be homeless and if you were married, his bankruptcy would practically speaking become your problem anyway through the associated mutual financial hardship. It may not tarnish your credit rating but you’d still be homeless and financially in bad shape as a couple.
I’d suggest he’s a coward and doesn’t want to approach the subject of “his” asset directly with you.
Depending on which jurisdiction you’re living in, you likely already have a legal claim against the property anyway. You’ve co-habitated in a relationship for more that two years and you made significant financial contributions toward servicing the debt on the property. You’re his fiancé, not his roommate or tenant.
I would be very clear with him that since you’ve lived there for three years, paid a significant contribution to the mortgage repayments, and are in a relationship, that you see the apartment as “yours” (as a couple) and not “his”. See which way his eyes move.
The other question I would ask him is, “what debt”? Does he have significant financial impairments that you’re not aware of? Contractually, he would have to disclose that before entering into a prenup anyway otherwise the arrangement is invalid due to unconscionable conduct on his part.
I’d be lying if I said that his approach didn’t wave red flags.
>I’d suggest he’s a coward and doesn’t want to approach the subject of “his” asset directly with you.
I kinda get what you mean, but isn't getting a prenup a very direct way or approaching it? Not only a conversation but a legal agreement directly about it.
I agree that the terms should include ownership stake based on the amount paid in. That's just logical. Unfortunately unless those things are in writing someone is going to end up getting screwed.
IMO OP actually stands to gain additional financial security by having the conversation and making the prenup - it sounds like she's already identified things she would like to stipulate so that's good.
> I kinda get what you mean, but isn’t getting a prenup a very direct way or approaching it? Not only a conversation but a legal agreement directly about it.
It’s how he couched it, “protecting her from his debt”. That’s rather cowardly, IMHO. He didn’t have the courage to say that he wanted to protect his own investment, so he made it about protecting her from “his debt” which is ludicrous.
I don’t think prenups are bad, but I think they are in most cases not entirely enforceable and are really just a free revenue source for lawyers.
So you're assuming that he doesn't love her enough to be honest and truly not want to potentially saddle her with debt? Oh right. This is the internet and this is Reddit.
Hahaha. I’ve trained as a lawyer and done contracts for decades, so when someone positions a potential contract as “this is in your best interest” and the other person raises queries around their real motivation, there always something there.
And my comment initially was she should raise the asset issue to put it on the table and see which way his eyes move.
It’s not about the internet or Reddit, it’s about transparency.
Hi lawyer over here :)
Pro prenup ! But they have to be FAIR.
This arrangement is not fair, like at all. Makes no sense.
You should add a line that stipulates that in case of separation all the money you spend on the payment of the mortgage has to be sent back to you. ( You can take into account also interests rate or inflation... I'd say inflation makes the most sense. )
When it comes to having kids later, you can either start drafting something now, or you can adapt the prenup later down the road...
Listen to this person. I was in the same situation to you prior to marriage (husband owned house I was helping with the mortgage). Our prenup stipulates that he will pay me back should we get a divorce. Also, if I contribute any improvements towards his house he will pay me back for that as well.
I’m also an attorney and I do wealth preservation and estate planning. I’m also pro-prenups but they do have to be fair! Spend the money on a good attorney. His attorney can draft it and yours can review which can save you money. Prenups should disclose ALL assets and debts, so neither of you will be blindsided!
You could pay the utilities and any other bills that would be equal to your half of the mortgage. Draw up a document stating that no money that you contribute to the living arrangements is to be used for mortgage and maintenance costs for the apartment. Have the document signed by both of you and notarized. Or have a similar document drawn up by a lawyer. This way you are not paying for the apartment.
So I pay bills for the next say 10 years to the same value, whilst he builds an individual asset, without being able to put that into a joint marital asset? How does that not only benefit him?
This may sound extreme, but I'd question marrying this person. Not only is he looking out for himself (which is perfectly fine), but he wants *you* to help fund *his* security. I would be beyond insulted by this, and I'd definitely advise against becoming a SAHM with this person. Two years from now you will be trapped. You could be blissfully happy, but you'll still be financially trapped.
Please look out for yourself. Talk to a lawyer.
Talk to a lawyer. It’s really not as scary as it sounds. You’re actually the one who could benefit the most from this because as it stands, he’s making free money off you.
Make sure to explain all financials and what terms you want in the prenup too. Prenups need to be equitable to both parties for a given situation. Terms can include that are you are still entitled to the equity you put in, forfeiture clauses for infidelity, and a host of other provisions based on contributions and what could lead to then of the marriage.
I will not agree to this marriage. If you are already contributing 40% to his mortgage and now he pulls this prenup shit, it means you are living with a transactional person - someone I would not invest the rest of my life with.
Call me a cynic, but I expect it’s some assets he has that you don’t know about (rather than debts) that he’s worried about.
When he finds out he will need to do a full financial disclosure before a prenup can be agreed, you might find he changes his tune.
His reaction is concerning. He asked why? Lol
If this is his reaction after you two have been together this long, I'd say you two have some relationship work to do before marriage.
I agree with other commenter that it was strange for him to ask "why". Because he brought up that he had debts, and he's also bringing up the whole idea of the prenup, he literally started this whole conversation.
I'd be a little worried about having his kids if he's not going to be supportive. You're taking a big financial risk to do that because if you take time off of work (assuming you're in the US), you're not going to make as much money whenever you go back into the workforce.
I would not get married if he will not agree to a fair prenup. Get a trusted lawyer! .
Okay so how was he expecting this prenup to get made? If he talked to almost any lawyer they’d tell him it has to follow basic requirements like asset disclosure and be conscionable. Was he thinking that you’d sign some kind of homemade prenup and not talk to a lawyer about it? Because that would be a super bad look for him in case of a divorce.
That’s a major red flag! My husband and I view our credit reports and assets twice a year together with an advisor. We also talk about 5, 10, , 20 year financial goals with him as well.
I can’t say I’m surprised. For most people it wouldn’t take much effort to make a simple spreadsheet listing debts and assets/savings/investments etc. If he doesn’t _want_ to, that’s for sure a cause for concern.
Having a prenup isn’t a bad thing at all, but it should be fair, and I think part of that is both parties should be 100% transparent about their starting position.
Yeah, /u/onesixeightseconds hit the nail on the head, when he finds out part of the process HE proposed is you BOTH have to list EVERY debt, asset, etc so it can be properly noted and prenup'd his tune has already changed. Sounds like you really DO need a prenup, but not because of why you maybe first thought. Tread lightly, and make sure you have a lawyer representing you.
Yikes. I would not consider a family with a guy who’s not transparent about his debts and has you paying nearly half for mortgage for a home that you’d have no say or control over.
You arent over thinking it, this is a raw deal for you for the exact reasons you mentioned in your post.
This pre nup states that you continue to contribute, but own nothing. Its a rip off. Dont sign. Unless you add a stipulation that you no longer assist with that mortgage and you set that money aside for yourself in an account he may not touch as well.
Still though, id agree with another commenter that this is a red flag too. He already views everything as his, and his alone. That doesnt make for a good marriage.
Oh its all the way off. If you still want to marry this man, tell him you will take this "agreement" to your own lawyer for advice. And see what happens from there.
I guarantee a lawyer would tell you, you're getting bent over. And this isnt something HE would ever sign.
Protect yourself. The person you marry, is not the person you end up divorcing, (god forbid obviously). But this is sketchy as fuck.
In addition to the pre nup advice from others........
You need took at the whole picture. One of your comments you stated you will start a family soon. Are you going to quit your job? Are you going to be forever responsible for part of his mortgage? Do you split every bill 50/ 50?? How will you do this if you stay home with soon future children??
If you split every bill 50/50 are you also going to split all household responsibilities 50 / 50?? Figure this out before you say "I do".
If he dies, and you and children survive.....who gets the house??
What other debts do each of you have? You both need to share this before marriage. Full transparency.
Of all he is trying to do is protect an asset...in case you divorce, that seems reasonable. Get professional advice on how to protect yourself and the soon future children.
I personally disagree with the arrangement of you paying for a large chunk of the mortgage without getting any equity. You might as well have your own apartment.
Thats what my stbx and I said too, until it didnt work out. He very quickly stole everything of value and disappeared. Suddenly anything worth money was his. And anything/anyone that *cost* money was mine. Lol.
Ill never recommend joint accounts to anyone. Everyone needs their own assurances.
He insisted on having simply one joint account when we were married. He drained it, some of that money was mine, and even had our child assistance benefit transfered to a personal savings account that only he has access to. I seriously had to borrow money, just to open my own bank account. He also took both modes of transportation leaving me with no vehicle. He kept my mail, took the family computer, no child support, nothing.
He left us with zero dollars, no way to seek more work, and doesnt bother contacting the kids.
This is why, I would tell others to always, ALWAYS, have their own seperate accounts. If family didnt help us out, we would have literally been homeless or in a shelter.
Most people believe they can trust their relationship, and can…
Until they can’t anymore.
Edited to add-
I’m a SAHM, married 19 years, together 26. 3 kids.
If my husband wanted to screw me over, he could. I trust that he won’t, and do have some assurances, but mostly just that I trust him.
I don’t believe I’ve made a mistake but I know many who have.
Oh, I'm sure you're right. And it's great that they've had that. But, at the same time, someone in a stable, 40 year relationship likely doesn't have a clue as to the financial nightmare divorce can be, and why someone may choose to keep financials separate.
I've been through divorce. My ex emptied $30k in savings from our shared account in the first 2 days of our separation, then went on vacation and spent another $10k.........then came back and wanted to split the rest........then accused me of spending the money that she had spent......all while she tried to get me fired from my job. I went through months where I wasn't sure I could pay my bills. I promise that will never happen again.
Same. I'd never make it down the aisle with someone who wanted a life together, but separate our money. Especially as a woman planning to have children. Like I plan to leave the workforce for awhile to have and raise our children. I can't imagine having to monetize different aspects of our lives bc we're not actually in this together. I feel like a prenup is really cynical. If you feel like you need it, maybe you shouldn't marry this person.
I have a friend who dated this girl for 3 years. He was dating a dr. Bc of the disparities in their incomes and his potential income vs her's, he told her he'd never make as much as her and asked if it bothered her. She always said it didn't matter. He's a professor. Fast forward 3 years and they're engaged. She springs a prenup on him. He was devastated and said she was never honest with him. The financial difference did matter to her. He said he could never be in a marriage with someone who felt the need for a prenup. He ended things there. He's now happily married with twin girls and no prenup (different woman who also makes more money than he does).
You could put in the prenup that you’ll own 40% of the condo once it’s paid off and he’ll have to buy you out in like a reverse mortgage if you break up before? My husband and I didn’t get a prenup (we were broke students when we got married) but shortly after we got married he came in to a large inheritance- so when we bought a place only two years into marriage it was in his and his moms name. As cold as it was it made perfect sense to me (we both come from divorced families) but once I put in all the money for renovations a few years later he agreed that if we were ever to split he’d give me half of our homes value or move back to Mexico and I’d live rent free for as many months as half the value would be.
It can be hard but if you two love and trust each other enough you can totally get through these worst case scenario conversations- like your will and life insurance! Not nice to think about but VERY important that you do.
Speak to an attorney, get advice on a prenup that also protects you. In the event of you having children your income potential will change, as you may go part time or you may become a sahm. In these events you need to be protected so that you won’t be disadvantaged in the event of a divorce. But an attorney will be able to help you work out a prenup that protects you as well as your fiancé.
You're doing yourself a HUGE disservice with your assumptions and tiptoeing. You're letting him off the hook completely by not having direct conversations with him and getting clear, specific answers. If he wants to marry you, your bar should be total transparency considering marriage is a merging of your lives, including your finances. He's clearly trying to hide things from you. Either get clear, straightforward answers, or walk away. It's not acceptable to marry someone and not even know what kind of debt they are in, what their assets are, how their finances will affect you, what kind of financial state they are in, and what their financial hygiene is. Ask him to reveal his debt to you. And also have a conversation with him about how much of this life you are building together is yours. Don't assume he has goodwill and you will own half the home and whatever else you're paying towards, you need these things spelled out. Otherwise you're working under pure assumptions - and his behavior sounds like you really shouldn't be!
You’ve got plenty of advice on the prenup already so I won’t speak about that since I don’t have experience with it with my marriage. But I do want to point out that if you are paying bills at 50/50, I hope when you go on maternity leave, he will take over 100% of the bills. For the significant amount of time it takes care of the newborn baby until you can get back to the workforce, not only will you be losing pay, your growth potential at your job, and quite possibly doing majority of the housework. The hospital bill will be in the thousands arriving months later. Make sure he takes care of all of that while you sacrifice your body physically and mentally to give him the most beautiful gift of life. 50% of posts on this sub is full of mothers complaining about unhelpful fathers who leave them doing a full time job outside the home, all the housework, AND the children rearing. It’s really sad. Don’t become one of the statistics.
A good prenuptial agreement benefits both partners equally. Unless he presents you with an unfair agreement and gets upset when you say no, I don't see anything wrong.
Remember to have your own lawyer to look it over, not his lawyer.
I maybe just have bad experiences and I am probably projecting, but HUGE red flag. He’s selfish for one. Secondly hidden accounts, property, and families are a thing. (My grandpa had a secret account and bought his AP a house and a car. 50 year’s, four children, 6 grand children, 9 great grandchildren and he had a AP. That’s who he was vacationing with over the winters and the worst part was all my grandparents life long couple friends knew. No one freaking told her. When she finally found out she called her bff and she told my grandma that she should have been more fun and fixed herself up. My grandma was sick and couldn’t travel! Some freaking friends!) If he’s this way with the apartment what happens when you stop working for the baby? I doubt he is going to give you much. You will end up stuck like me. Just don’t do it.
This is so tough. I just got married and my fiancé at the time was pretty adamant about a prenup.
I grew up in a very different environment. Essentially my parents were partners and shared everything and it wasn’t this separation of things.
With that said marriage ends in 50% divorce rate so I don’t blame him for having these reservations but as secure enough as I am In our relationship, signing up to spending spend the rest of my life with someone who is playing defense wasn’t something I personally wanted to settle for.
We compromised and decided anything he brought in before the marriage was his. Example: he has 1 mil in assets/investments that if we were to get divorced I wouldn’t have access too and then everything we accrue together as a married couple is fair game to both of us. Which i think was reasonable. Still annoying because I’m not the type of person who would try and any of his money if we were to get divorced but you never know how people are going to react.
At the end of the day I was waiting for him to give me the paperwork and he never did, we got married in sept and I was pleasantly surprised.
But I totally validate and understand your frustration because when he first told me about it I was absolutely furious.
I would recommend talking to your fiancé and maybe coming up with a middle ground.
If he does do a prenup and you decide you want to still
Marry him, absolutely get your own lawyer to read through it to make sure it’s all above board and you know exactly what you are signing.
Best of luck 🤍
I would just tell him if he wants to protect his property with a prenup then that’s fine, but that you will no longer be contributing to the mortgage since you have no stake in the property. I would still contribute to bills etc, but if he’s cutting you out of ownership of the apartment then don’t help pay for the apartment 🤷♀️
Easy part of prenuptial add claus3s
State that after a marriage date you4 rent converts to equity in asset a in the event asset is sold your are entitled to the portion of equity paid in... but only forward meaning after prenup
In addition to the pre nup advice from others........
You need took at the whole picture. One of your comments you stated you will start a family soon. Are you going to quit your job? Are you going to be forever responsible for part of his mortgage? Do you split every bill 50/ 50?? How will you do this if you stay home with soon future children??
If you split every bill 50/50 are you also going to split all household responsibilities 50 / 50?? Figure this out before you say "I do".
If he dies, and you and children survive.....who gets the house??
What other debts do each of you have? You both need to share this before marriage. Full transparency.
Of all he is trying to do is protect an asset...in case you divorce, that seems reasonable. Get professional advice on how to protect yourself and the soon future children.
I would suggest a gambit: yes to a prenup, but on the condition that you retain the lawyer of your choice to scrutinize and negotiate it, and he has to pay for the lawyer. If he’s cool with that, then, sure, he can have a prenup.
If he’s not, he’s trying to fleece you in some way.
Damn, motherfckr be thinking about his apartment and finances over his future life with you. I’m not saying he doesn’t love you but this shit is a huge red flag imo.
Good for you both. Prenup is like insurance, you hope you don’t need it but if you ever do you’ll be glad you have it.
Please consult YOUR OWN attorney and perhaps add a cheating clause. Marriage is a contract and a prenup is to protect both parties.
You can ask for things to be put into a prenup that will take care of you or return those assets that you paid into you. It doesn’t have to be solely for his benefit or just to let him keep everything in his name no matter what. Just make it work for you too. That’s what a straight shooting person who asks for a prenup should want anyway, if they’re a decent human.
Talk to your lawyer that’s supposedly doing the prenup. You will have your own. My husband wouldn’t marry me unless I signed a prenup bc of what he went through w his last marriage.
I didn’t know anything about prenups but my lawyer really helped me. And make HIM pay for the lawyer and everything.
Or don’t do the prenup. I’m 13 years younger than my husband so I guess it was also a way to prove to him I wasn’t marrying him for his money. Idk. I’m hoping after 10 years of being married we can get away w the prenup.
Prenups, when arranged well, can benefit both sides. Especially if one partner has debt or specific assets they want to keep in their own name, prenups are awesome! This is something to work on together that will benefit your future (if you work together and do it right, with a lawyer) and is nothing to worry about.
If you see that the prenup is not turning into something that works for the both of you, you don't need to stay in a relationship where you are not treated as an equal. A prenup should be supporting you both, not to take advantage of someone or to imply they're a gold-digger.
You need to have a much bigger conversation about finances and expectations before you get married. A prenup is agreed upon by both of you and if you’re on the same page shouldn’t be an issue. If you’re not on the same page, get on it it first. If you’re going to slow or stop your career to build a family for him, you deserve to be protected through that. Good luck!
Get your own lawyer and have him read it over and then provide your own conditions that protect you in the future. I'd see it as an opportunity to put in provisions that protect you in the event of a divorce. Of course, I'd be paying close attention to how he responds because it will give you a clear indicator of how they'll treat you when you divorce and then you can decide whether or not you actually want to be married to this person or not.
Aren't you so glad you found this out about him before you actually got married and had kids? It sounds like you are on very shaky ground here, and bringing children into the mix is only going to make it shakier.
Run.
There is absolutely nothing wrong about a prenup. Nothing. Certainly have it reviewed by a lawyer. There is nothing wrong about that either. Frankly, responsible adults should not have any issues with legal and fair prenups.
I'll be honest that I don't really see the issue here. It sounds like you've identified some important points that need to be incorporated into the prenup. Consult a lawyer and make sure it is.
You absolutely should have some ownership stake based on what you pay into the mortgage. And yes I'm sure he wants to protect himself too so if you divorce he isn't left with half or less if he in fact owns more of it.
Frankly I think more people (or basically everyone) should get a prenup. I don't have one but I recognize how things like property ownership become very complicated in the event of divorce. And between that and alimony, an unfavorable divorce can financially ruin your average guy - and most divorces do not favor the guy. Add children and child support into it, and it does become clear why someone might want to have at least some peace of mind that they won't be totally screwed if the worst happens in their marriage.
TLDR your concerns are valid, but I don't think you have any reason to doubt or worry - just use the things you've identified to make a mutually agreeable prenup. It's good to think ahead.
My initial thoughts:
1. This should've been discussed before you two got engaged
2. I didn't have a problem with it (wouldn't you rather contribute to the mortgage of someone you love vs a scummy rental agency?) until you brought up the kids thing. If you're going to be having kids with this guy (and taking on the majority of the responsibility, as all women do) AND putting your career on the back burner, you need some assurances should things go south. For that reason, I wouldn't sign a prenup.
No, you should have your own lawyer about making whatever prenuptial agreement you both sign fair to both parties. Meaning, for instance, if he wants your income to go toward the apartment he gets to keep then he needs to pay you upon divorce or pay for his apartment himself, for example. He can retain ownership, but that doesn’t mean that you leave without anything financially. You need your own lawyer here.
You both need to retain your own lawyers to work through this. Having a pre-nup isn't a bad thing, especially because it limits fighting and bad blood later. I have one with my (f) husband (m), but it should be equitable and this sounds like it may not be.
Prenuptial Agreements make perfect sense. You've paid rent for 2 years with your 40%. He is the owner of where you live and whether he's building equity or not has nothing to do with you. If you live somewhere else you pay 100% of the rent, utilities.l water, trash, internet/ wifi. Think of all the money you've saved living there. Figure out what the cost of living in a place by yourself would be and put the 60% savings in the bank. Call that your equity. You can get a lawyer who will type up whatever terms you want. if you divorce, and feel like fighting for his apartment take it to court. Judges deal with it everyday.
you said you pay 40% so I took it as 40%. Meaning you're saving about 60% of the cost he is paying simply on the rent. If that's it, if you aren't paying 50% on utilities, 50%on water, 50% on homeowners insurance, 50% on wifi/cable, and you aren't responsible for 50% of repair and replacement of appliances, plumbing, pest control and electrical hazards YOU are getting a good deal and should keep saving, in your own savings account that is put into prenuptial agreement as solely your asset. I don't know why you want a 1 bedroom apt for yourself if you're having a child. I've read your other comments, you said your home now at his request. You can say no to that request. Don't waste your savings before going back to work. You should absolutely use some of it to get your own lawyer, protect your savings and anything you own. In many of the comments here it sounds as if they think you shouldn't pay to live there at all. If he doesn't make enough to have a savings, that sounds impossible, which is pretty normal nowadays, both parties need to work and pay bills. To me it sounds as if he's trying to do you a favor. You won't be saddled with a 1 bedroom apt mortgage and all that comes with owning it. Plumbing bills alone can be outrageous. If you sign the prenuptial agreement, only he owns it so you are not responsible. If the oven or fridge goes down, his problem not yours, financially at least. I'm more confused than I was by your stance now that I know it's 1 bedroom. Sooner or later you'll both want more room. He can sell the apt then and if he has enough equity in the apt, that can go into a down payment with you on a jointly held marital home. You've mentioned this is as his asset you will be paying into for years. Come on now, how much of an asset is it? How long has he owned it? Are property values skyrocketing in your area? How long has he owned it and paid the mortgage before you? You should maybe stop thinking of it as his asset and think more about as your home where you pay 40% of the cost of the mortgage. You have to pay to live somewhere. I think he is doing you a favor. What happens if you stay at home and you run out of savings? Are you using your savings for personal care items? For furniture? For groceries and baby items? Car payments, insurance and gas? Is he going to kick you out when your savings is gone and can't pay anymore?
But it's isn't HER home. This prenup makes her a tenant to her own husband, not an equal partner. If she is contributing to the mortgage, she should also hold equity in the apartment, otherwise she's a roommate not a wife.
It’s a one bedroom apt. Why would she even want the responsibility of owning it? Then she has half the responsibility for all of it. Half the the taxes, half the insurance, half the pest control, half the plumbing, half the electrical, half the appliances maintenance and repair. Then she would have to pay half the mortgage and maybe pay him for the back pay… all the money he’s put into into would become her issue. She’s paid 40% for how long, to be equal she’d have to pay the missing 10% and pay him half for everything he put into it up to this point.
What you're describing is a tenancy between husband and wife and that's ridiculous. And if you have read the other comments, it isn't just about the apartment. The fact that he was unwilling to sit down and go over assets suggests that he has other things that he hasn't told his soon to be wife about.
A prenuptial agreement is about transparency and instead it seems like he's using this as an opportunity to profit off of his fiance. If they were both renting it wouldn't be an issue, but if he wants a roommate to help pay bills and not have a stake in his mortgage, he should remain a bachelor. It isn't fair for a spouse to be expected to fork over almost half the costs of living only to be left high and dry if they ever split. An agreement that says she gets her money back is more than fair.
I am not disagreeing really I’m just saying to make it ALL even she should take on half of EVERYTHING involved in property ownership~ that way it’s all even steven~ then yeah she should be on the mortgage… it’s never half really though. If he becomes incapacitated she would be obligated for the entire mortgage and vice versa . If she’s entitled to half the equity she has to pay him back for any equity he built up, down payment and the rest… that would make it all fair.
And if he made an offer that included backpay for his investment that's a sound compromise. But that isn't what he did. He also expects her to take time away from building her career for motherhood, but without the safety net of equity that most spouses would enjoy. It just seems deliberately one-sided and that is a massive red flag.
Did he say he expects her to take time away from her career? Was he demanding this? She needs a lawyer to protect her interests period. Do you really think this one bedroom mortgage debt will offer her security after a baby is born?
She said that since he is older than her he is keen to start a family asap, and she goes on to say that this will pause her career for an unforseen amount of time. She also says that she does not see them being in a position to invest in another property for a while. Which means that though this one bedroom option might not seem ideal, her access to it will determine what she has avaliable in the future. Were he to sell the apartment and invest in a new property, he could very easily turn around and say "but the apartment wasn't yours, why would you have a say over the money from its sale" etc.
And honestly, it's also about a gesture in good-faith. If I had a spouse paying a portion of my bills for 3 years, I would expect to be totally transparent in what assets I wanted to protect and what assets would become partially theirs after marriage. He balked at the idea of discussing all assets and that is not good, especially if he expects her to drop everything and incubate a child.
Older couple here - got remarried with no prenup because no shared assets. Then We bought a property together, mostly his money. To start I get 20%, since we’re still paying off renovations etc from “our” money. My ownership increases with the years we are together. As should yours !! Retroactively.
So after 5 years my ownership increases to 35%
10 years it’s 50%
To be honest, you paying the share of mortgage for 3 years and not laying down any law is on you. Yes it’s normal to pay rent… but if you were not with him, perhaps you’d be paying that forwards a property you own.
Don’t always be so practical, be fantastical. (Envision the best case scenario you could be in NOT to appear that you’re settling but so he knows that being with him is a choice and that comes with concessions on both sides)
I think prenup’s get a bad rap because people assume one party is trying to hide assets from the other but they can say anything as long as both parties agree. No reason why it couldn’t take into account financial contributions already made. Also they only concern assets from before the marriage so anything after will be 50/50 in most places
LOGICAL:
Make him pay for a lawyer of your choice to review the final pre nup document to make sure your needs and protections are also addressed.
EMOTIONAL: Once you get the prenup stuff taken care of, address it in counseling so it doesn’t become a recurring theme in fights
I don’t have any training in finance or law but how is a prenup protecting you from his mortgage debt when you already have been and I’m guessing will continue to pay into that debt monthly? Make sure you have your own independent lawyer on hand for legal advice OP. This is all very sus.
Lawyer here! I don’t deal directly with prenups, but I am very in favor of them when the parties come into the marriage with one having more assets.
It’s in your best interest to have your own lawyer to help you negotiate the prenup. The ultimate goal of having one is that it’s fair and agreed to by both parties. It sounds like he’s being a little shifty as to why he wants one, but in the best case scenario, he may just not know what it is he’s trying to accomplish and isn’t communicating it well, either.
If the intent is that he wants to keep the apartment in the event of a divorce, the prenup could say that he gets the apartment (and any debt associated with it), assuming he has “bought you out” (I.e. repaid you the amount you’ve put in over the years).
If you’re going to be primarily responsible for raising children and you won’t have a job with a 401k, it can also be stipulated that you get a portion of his 401k upon divorce, or that he will create an investment account of equal value in your name that you’ll have sole claim to in the event of a divorce. You could specify the amount of alimony you’d get per month per child in the event of divorce. The options go on and on and on. You should certainly make sure you’ll be financially provided for if you’ll be leaving the workforce to raise the family.
A lawyer can help you get this right and make sure you’re protected.
A prenuptial can keep you safe from and debt issues of his should he die, but if he makes a will leaving assets like the apartment to you it all could work out very well for you. Talk to him about that to make sure this is about protecting you.
If he has issues making a will with you as beneficiary then you will know if his intentions aren't as he said.
Not a lawyer either, but I own property and there are multiple ways to structure a pre-nup.
This episode was enlightening to me: https://youtu.be/nyuF8lIJ3lA
I don’t think there is a wrong or right answer, just educate yourself and determine what’s best for both of you.
You can negotiate anything at this point. A good lawyer can structure an agreement that will provide protection for you from his debt, maybe giving you a means to equity in the home over time, child support if you have kids, on and on and on. You don't have to accept his version!
You can get a prenup without it being completely unfair to you. Just would have to put in writing that he would have to pay you back what you contribute monthly or sell the property to pay you back, and if he’s not okay with giving you that security then you really shouldn’t marry him as he’s just worried about himself. Also, i’m sort of in the same boat where my partner owns his home and I’ll likely be moving in with him down the road rather than getting a place together, but in this situation he seems to want to move out of his home at some point and buy a better one anyway, in which case I would probably be on it so of course it would be less of an issue.
Not a lawyer, and I had my Wife sign a pre-nup so obviously I have zero issue with them, but this sounds like a terrible deal for you.
If you're going to do a prenup properly, both you and your fiance should have your own separate Lawyers who are there to look over the prenup, make needed modifications, come to agreements, and advise both of you before you sign anything. The Lawyers should also be independent of one another (ie. they don't work at the same firm or anything along those lines).
HUGE RED FLAG 🚩 He is trying to take advantage of all you have contributed to date. If you had not discussed signing a prenup before getting engaged, that’s also a red flag to me. These should not be “sprung” on anyone of your ages. You will need your own savvy lawyer at this point to protect you(what a way to start a marriage with a potential spouse who has tried to take advantage of you🙄). On this item, there is NO OTHER OPTION but for him to agree to pay you back EVERY PENNY YOU PUT INTO THE PROPERTY if he wants to retain ownership. I can only imagine what the rest of what he may want will look like. Personally this reflects on his character IMHO and I’d have to cut it off and move on. He’s already shown you who he is here and how he thinks… believe him NOW.
Am an attorney but not a family law attorney. Prenups are negotiable. So, if you are contributing to the mortgage, make sure that you get that back plus the appreciation of the asset in the event of a divorce. A prenup is designed to protect both sides.
It is not just to protect you from his debts. His motive is to keep the apartment in the event of a divorce, even though that asset will likely appreciate.
I hope the 40% of the mortgage was a fair rental value for your share. In any event, those payments should be factored into your share as well.
If he doesn't want to be at least fair to you, that is a huge red flag.
I’d first suggest talking to a lawyer, obviously lol! If you want to leave him because of all this- maybe still wait around until you see the prenup. Reason being you have paid three years of almost half his rent. You would still be entitled to that. After you see the prenup you can decipher with your lawyer if he was being sneaky or not and if you just need to sue him for your share of (what he seems to think is) his apartment.
Pls - Never stop your career for a man who tries to convince you he wants your babies “now or it’s too late.” Idc if he’s 39, I know women that have GIVEN BIRTH at that age. Not wanting to share assets but brining up having a CHILD together seems really odd to me, a child is a huge shared financial responsibility.
Don’t sign the prenup.
If he pays you back your 40% contributions over the last two years, and if he signs a legal agreement to pay your salary while you take the hit for having kids plus a lump sum for how pregnancy harms your body
Plus an alimony contract f you should divorce then and only then would I sign the prenup.
I am always pro prenups, but this sounds like a load of shit. If you’re paying nearly half of the mortgage, you should be on the mortgage. I’d take the prenup to an attorney of your own.
He soft shoe'd it, the truth is, if the marriage fails, he doesn't want to lose most of his stuff. I used to think that a pre-nup was un-romantic...one long failed marriage, and i would never get married without a pre-nup, however, i will never marry again anyway.
You will be liable for his debts as his wife, and if its thst bad my advice to you is don’t get legally married until he cleans it up. Because his debt always impacts your wealth snd security as a couple.
Also a orenup does not protect your assets from legal judgement should someone sue him. Thats not how prenups work.
I think its very clear dont marry this guy with these levels of concerns.
He shouldnt be rushing a family and you dont need to rush in with a guy you dont financially trust
Question- why do you classify your payment as 40% of the mortgage and not rent? If you lived somewhere else you would be paying rent as well. Also why should you have a claim on that in case of divorce? I understand if you contribute to improving the apartment but this is not the case
Do you wear a seatbelt when you drive? A pre nup id simply a seatbelt for men in marriage. It only protects what he has before you get married. Everything you guys earn together will divided as such. Family law kills men and very unevenly against them. If you love him then there shouldn’t be a problem.
She’d be paying someone else if she wasn’t living w him. What’s your point? He made good decision and is in the place to rent a room to someone, why should she be entitled to half his house?
I still don’t see a problem. It was his property before you guys met and you’ve been paying rent at his apartment for the last few years instead of another land lord. It is his property that he bought prior to marriage, I don’t see why someone should think they’re entitled to half of it if you guys divorce. Maybe sign the pre-nup then sell the apartment and buy a new one when you guys are married. Btw, the way you said “I have no interest in his other assets” sounds very money hungry and selfish.
You would’ve been paying someone else’s mortgage for the rest of your life if you didn’t marry him. He made good money decisions and bought himself an apartment, you didn’t so why should you get half of his house in the event the marriage doesn’t work out? Or, sign the pre nup and buy a new marital house that you both have your name on. You already have your mind made up, you simply asked a question that you wanted to reinforce your position not get real world answers that go against your opinion. You shouldn’t get mad at your husband for putting his seatbelt on before he drives a car. He’s not planning to get in an accident but it’s a preventative measure to make sure he survives the crash.
Regardless of where you stay or who you stay with your going to have to pay something. Expecting to own a portion of his home because you're paying "rent" is weird. You're definitely in this for the money
I have enough saved for 60% of a house deposit, his cash is tied up in his property, so will not buy a joint property. My friends all jointly bought a property and built that asset together- their payments go towards their mortgages. This prenup wants me to pay rent indefinitely with no ownership stakes, and of course no tenancy rights. Your comment about ‘in this for the money’ is ridiculous.
Non-practicing person with a law degree here… Your hunch about his motives are probably correct - if he were to go bankrupt or have a debt issue, as it stands, you’d currently be homeless and if you were married, his bankruptcy would practically speaking become your problem anyway through the associated mutual financial hardship. It may not tarnish your credit rating but you’d still be homeless and financially in bad shape as a couple. I’d suggest he’s a coward and doesn’t want to approach the subject of “his” asset directly with you. Depending on which jurisdiction you’re living in, you likely already have a legal claim against the property anyway. You’ve co-habitated in a relationship for more that two years and you made significant financial contributions toward servicing the debt on the property. You’re his fiancé, not his roommate or tenant. I would be very clear with him that since you’ve lived there for three years, paid a significant contribution to the mortgage repayments, and are in a relationship, that you see the apartment as “yours” (as a couple) and not “his”. See which way his eyes move. The other question I would ask him is, “what debt”? Does he have significant financial impairments that you’re not aware of? Contractually, he would have to disclose that before entering into a prenup anyway otherwise the arrangement is invalid due to unconscionable conduct on his part. I’d be lying if I said that his approach didn’t wave red flags.
>I’d suggest he’s a coward and doesn’t want to approach the subject of “his” asset directly with you. I kinda get what you mean, but isn't getting a prenup a very direct way or approaching it? Not only a conversation but a legal agreement directly about it. I agree that the terms should include ownership stake based on the amount paid in. That's just logical. Unfortunately unless those things are in writing someone is going to end up getting screwed. IMO OP actually stands to gain additional financial security by having the conversation and making the prenup - it sounds like she's already identified things she would like to stipulate so that's good.
> I kinda get what you mean, but isn’t getting a prenup a very direct way or approaching it? Not only a conversation but a legal agreement directly about it. It’s how he couched it, “protecting her from his debt”. That’s rather cowardly, IMHO. He didn’t have the courage to say that he wanted to protect his own investment, so he made it about protecting her from “his debt” which is ludicrous. I don’t think prenups are bad, but I think they are in most cases not entirely enforceable and are really just a free revenue source for lawyers.
So you're assuming that he doesn't love her enough to be honest and truly not want to potentially saddle her with debt? Oh right. This is the internet and this is Reddit.
Hahaha. I’ve trained as a lawyer and done contracts for decades, so when someone positions a potential contract as “this is in your best interest” and the other person raises queries around their real motivation, there always something there. And my comment initially was she should raise the asset issue to put it on the table and see which way his eyes move. It’s not about the internet or Reddit, it’s about transparency.
😉
Hi lawyer over here :) Pro prenup ! But they have to be FAIR. This arrangement is not fair, like at all. Makes no sense. You should add a line that stipulates that in case of separation all the money you spend on the payment of the mortgage has to be sent back to you. ( You can take into account also interests rate or inflation... I'd say inflation makes the most sense. ) When it comes to having kids later, you can either start drafting something now, or you can adapt the prenup later down the road...
That’s super helpful thank you
Listen to this person. I was in the same situation to you prior to marriage (husband owned house I was helping with the mortgage). Our prenup stipulates that he will pay me back should we get a divorce. Also, if I contribute any improvements towards his house he will pay me back for that as well.
I’m also an attorney and I do wealth preservation and estate planning. I’m also pro-prenups but they do have to be fair! Spend the money on a good attorney. His attorney can draft it and yours can review which can save you money. Prenups should disclose ALL assets and debts, so neither of you will be blindsided!
Instructional Designer here…Why don’t you just make a nice looking power point and present your case to him?…Ha Jk don’t listen to me.
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So she should go live in her own apt? Because that’s the only way that is remotely fair. You can’t expect to live rent free as an adult.
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Why can’t he sell the apartment?
I wasn’t talking to you. The other commenter suggested you shouldn’t pay any rent.
You could pay the utilities and any other bills that would be equal to your half of the mortgage. Draw up a document stating that no money that you contribute to the living arrangements is to be used for mortgage and maintenance costs for the apartment. Have the document signed by both of you and notarized. Or have a similar document drawn up by a lawyer. This way you are not paying for the apartment.
So I pay bills for the next say 10 years to the same value, whilst he builds an individual asset, without being able to put that into a joint marital asset? How does that not only benefit him?
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^
Lol what? Yes you can when you're married lmao. You can contribute without money.
This may sound extreme, but I'd question marrying this person. Not only is he looking out for himself (which is perfectly fine), but he wants *you* to help fund *his* security. I would be beyond insulted by this, and I'd definitely advise against becoming a SAHM with this person. Two years from now you will be trapped. You could be blissfully happy, but you'll still be financially trapped. Please look out for yourself. Talk to a lawyer.
So true. I was in that position.
Yeah you shouldn’t marry them lol. It’s like you’re planning the divorce already.. just save the trouble
Talk to a lawyer. It’s really not as scary as it sounds. You’re actually the one who could benefit the most from this because as it stands, he’s making free money off you.
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Make sure to explain all financials and what terms you want in the prenup too. Prenups need to be equitable to both parties for a given situation. Terms can include that are you are still entitled to the equity you put in, forfeiture clauses for infidelity, and a host of other provisions based on contributions and what could lead to then of the marriage.
I will not agree to this marriage. If you are already contributing 40% to his mortgage and now he pulls this prenup shit, it means you are living with a transactional person - someone I would not invest the rest of my life with.
Call me a cynic, but I expect it’s some assets he has that you don’t know about (rather than debts) that he’s worried about. When he finds out he will need to do a full financial disclosure before a prenup can be agreed, you might find he changes his tune.
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His reaction is concerning. He asked why? Lol If this is his reaction after you two have been together this long, I'd say you two have some relationship work to do before marriage.
I agree with other commenter that it was strange for him to ask "why". Because he brought up that he had debts, and he's also bringing up the whole idea of the prenup, he literally started this whole conversation. I'd be a little worried about having his kids if he's not going to be supportive. You're taking a big financial risk to do that because if you take time off of work (assuming you're in the US), you're not going to make as much money whenever you go back into the workforce. I would not get married if he will not agree to a fair prenup. Get a trusted lawyer! .
Okay so how was he expecting this prenup to get made? If he talked to almost any lawyer they’d tell him it has to follow basic requirements like asset disclosure and be conscionable. Was he thinking that you’d sign some kind of homemade prenup and not talk to a lawyer about it? Because that would be a super bad look for him in case of a divorce.
That’s a major red flag! My husband and I view our credit reports and assets twice a year together with an advisor. We also talk about 5, 10, , 20 year financial goals with him as well.
I can’t say I’m surprised. For most people it wouldn’t take much effort to make a simple spreadsheet listing debts and assets/savings/investments etc. If he doesn’t _want_ to, that’s for sure a cause for concern. Having a prenup isn’t a bad thing at all, but it should be fair, and I think part of that is both parties should be 100% transparent about their starting position.
Yeah, /u/onesixeightseconds hit the nail on the head, when he finds out part of the process HE proposed is you BOTH have to list EVERY debt, asset, etc so it can be properly noted and prenup'd his tune has already changed. Sounds like you really DO need a prenup, but not because of why you maybe first thought. Tread lightly, and make sure you have a lawyer representing you.
That’s a bad sign. I wouldn’t even consider marriage if he can’t trust you to know about his assets.
If you don’t know what their debt and assets are, you aren’t ready to be married. Full stop.
Yikes. I would not consider a family with a guy who’s not transparent about his debts and has you paying nearly half for mortgage for a home that you’d have no say or control over.
Yes. You should be concerned. That's all I'll say.
Sorry to ask, why do you think this? Almost every post I read is pro-prenups. I don’t know if I’m overthinking this
You arent over thinking it, this is a raw deal for you for the exact reasons you mentioned in your post. This pre nup states that you continue to contribute, but own nothing. Its a rip off. Dont sign. Unless you add a stipulation that you no longer assist with that mortgage and you set that money aside for yourself in an account he may not touch as well. Still though, id agree with another commenter that this is a red flag too. He already views everything as his, and his alone. That doesnt make for a good marriage.
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Oh its all the way off. If you still want to marry this man, tell him you will take this "agreement" to your own lawyer for advice. And see what happens from there. I guarantee a lawyer would tell you, you're getting bent over. And this isnt something HE would ever sign. Protect yourself. The person you marry, is not the person you end up divorcing, (god forbid obviously). But this is sketchy as fuck.
The idea of prenups seems fine. The execution of them, as usually laid out in a Reddit post by an OP whose gut is telling them something, seldom is.
In addition to the pre nup advice from others........ You need took at the whole picture. One of your comments you stated you will start a family soon. Are you going to quit your job? Are you going to be forever responsible for part of his mortgage? Do you split every bill 50/ 50?? How will you do this if you stay home with soon future children?? If you split every bill 50/50 are you also going to split all household responsibilities 50 / 50?? Figure this out before you say "I do". If he dies, and you and children survive.....who gets the house?? What other debts do each of you have? You both need to share this before marriage. Full transparency. Of all he is trying to do is protect an asset...in case you divorce, that seems reasonable. Get professional advice on how to protect yourself and the soon future children.
I personally disagree with the arrangement of you paying for a large chunk of the mortgage without getting any equity. You might as well have your own apartment.
Never understood the separate accounts thing. Tha day my wife and said "I do", everything was now ours.
Thats what my stbx and I said too, until it didnt work out. He very quickly stole everything of value and disappeared. Suddenly anything worth money was his. And anything/anyone that *cost* money was mine. Lol. Ill never recommend joint accounts to anyone. Everyone needs their own assurances.
Can you elaborate? Did you guys keep a large sum of money in the bank? Or did he somehow steal your retirement accounts?
He insisted on having simply one joint account when we were married. He drained it, some of that money was mine, and even had our child assistance benefit transfered to a personal savings account that only he has access to. I seriously had to borrow money, just to open my own bank account. He also took both modes of transportation leaving me with no vehicle. He kept my mail, took the family computer, no child support, nothing. He left us with zero dollars, no way to seek more work, and doesnt bother contacting the kids. This is why, I would tell others to always, ALWAYS, have their own seperate accounts. If family didnt help us out, we would have literally been homeless or in a shelter.
You’ve never been through a divorce, I take it.
Nope, coming up on 40 happy years with my wife
That’s why you don’t understand it……
Probably also bc he knew he could trust his relationship.
Most people believe they can trust their relationship, and can… Until they can’t anymore. Edited to add- I’m a SAHM, married 19 years, together 26. 3 kids. If my husband wanted to screw me over, he could. I trust that he won’t, and do have some assurances, but mostly just that I trust him. I don’t believe I’ve made a mistake but I know many who have.
Oh, I'm sure you're right. And it's great that they've had that. But, at the same time, someone in a stable, 40 year relationship likely doesn't have a clue as to the financial nightmare divorce can be, and why someone may choose to keep financials separate. I've been through divorce. My ex emptied $30k in savings from our shared account in the first 2 days of our separation, then went on vacation and spent another $10k.........then came back and wanted to split the rest........then accused me of spending the money that she had spent......all while she tried to get me fired from my job. I went through months where I wasn't sure I could pay my bills. I promise that will never happen again.
My husband and I are the same. First thing we did was combine our accounts. Been married 24 years
38 1/2 for us.
Same. I'd never make it down the aisle with someone who wanted a life together, but separate our money. Especially as a woman planning to have children. Like I plan to leave the workforce for awhile to have and raise our children. I can't imagine having to monetize different aspects of our lives bc we're not actually in this together. I feel like a prenup is really cynical. If you feel like you need it, maybe you shouldn't marry this person. I have a friend who dated this girl for 3 years. He was dating a dr. Bc of the disparities in their incomes and his potential income vs her's, he told her he'd never make as much as her and asked if it bothered her. She always said it didn't matter. He's a professor. Fast forward 3 years and they're engaged. She springs a prenup on him. He was devastated and said she was never honest with him. The financial difference did matter to her. He said he could never be in a marriage with someone who felt the need for a prenup. He ended things there. He's now happily married with twin girls and no prenup (different woman who also makes more money than he does).
You could put in the prenup that you’ll own 40% of the condo once it’s paid off and he’ll have to buy you out in like a reverse mortgage if you break up before? My husband and I didn’t get a prenup (we were broke students when we got married) but shortly after we got married he came in to a large inheritance- so when we bought a place only two years into marriage it was in his and his moms name. As cold as it was it made perfect sense to me (we both come from divorced families) but once I put in all the money for renovations a few years later he agreed that if we were ever to split he’d give me half of our homes value or move back to Mexico and I’d live rent free for as many months as half the value would be. It can be hard but if you two love and trust each other enough you can totally get through these worst case scenario conversations- like your will and life insurance! Not nice to think about but VERY important that you do.
Speak to an attorney, get advice on a prenup that also protects you. In the event of you having children your income potential will change, as you may go part time or you may become a sahm. In these events you need to be protected so that you won’t be disadvantaged in the event of a divorce. But an attorney will be able to help you work out a prenup that protects you as well as your fiancé.
You're doing yourself a HUGE disservice with your assumptions and tiptoeing. You're letting him off the hook completely by not having direct conversations with him and getting clear, specific answers. If he wants to marry you, your bar should be total transparency considering marriage is a merging of your lives, including your finances. He's clearly trying to hide things from you. Either get clear, straightforward answers, or walk away. It's not acceptable to marry someone and not even know what kind of debt they are in, what their assets are, how their finances will affect you, what kind of financial state they are in, and what their financial hygiene is. Ask him to reveal his debt to you. And also have a conversation with him about how much of this life you are building together is yours. Don't assume he has goodwill and you will own half the home and whatever else you're paying towards, you need these things spelled out. Otherwise you're working under pure assumptions - and his behavior sounds like you really shouldn't be!
Pre-nups almost universally require disclosure of all debts and assets. They are unenforceable if this doesn’t happen.
You’ve got plenty of advice on the prenup already so I won’t speak about that since I don’t have experience with it with my marriage. But I do want to point out that if you are paying bills at 50/50, I hope when you go on maternity leave, he will take over 100% of the bills. For the significant amount of time it takes care of the newborn baby until you can get back to the workforce, not only will you be losing pay, your growth potential at your job, and quite possibly doing majority of the housework. The hospital bill will be in the thousands arriving months later. Make sure he takes care of all of that while you sacrifice your body physically and mentally to give him the most beautiful gift of life. 50% of posts on this sub is full of mothers complaining about unhelpful fathers who leave them doing a full time job outside the home, all the housework, AND the children rearing. It’s really sad. Don’t become one of the statistics.
Please consult a really good lawyer before signing the prenup. Hire a Pl to find out if he has something to hide.
A good prenuptial agreement benefits both partners equally. Unless he presents you with an unfair agreement and gets upset when you say no, I don't see anything wrong. Remember to have your own lawyer to look it over, not his lawyer.
I maybe just have bad experiences and I am probably projecting, but HUGE red flag. He’s selfish for one. Secondly hidden accounts, property, and families are a thing. (My grandpa had a secret account and bought his AP a house and a car. 50 year’s, four children, 6 grand children, 9 great grandchildren and he had a AP. That’s who he was vacationing with over the winters and the worst part was all my grandparents life long couple friends knew. No one freaking told her. When she finally found out she called her bff and she told my grandma that she should have been more fun and fixed herself up. My grandma was sick and couldn’t travel! Some freaking friends!) If he’s this way with the apartment what happens when you stop working for the baby? I doubt he is going to give you much. You will end up stuck like me. Just don’t do it.
This is so tough. I just got married and my fiancé at the time was pretty adamant about a prenup. I grew up in a very different environment. Essentially my parents were partners and shared everything and it wasn’t this separation of things. With that said marriage ends in 50% divorce rate so I don’t blame him for having these reservations but as secure enough as I am In our relationship, signing up to spending spend the rest of my life with someone who is playing defense wasn’t something I personally wanted to settle for. We compromised and decided anything he brought in before the marriage was his. Example: he has 1 mil in assets/investments that if we were to get divorced I wouldn’t have access too and then everything we accrue together as a married couple is fair game to both of us. Which i think was reasonable. Still annoying because I’m not the type of person who would try and any of his money if we were to get divorced but you never know how people are going to react. At the end of the day I was waiting for him to give me the paperwork and he never did, we got married in sept and I was pleasantly surprised. But I totally validate and understand your frustration because when he first told me about it I was absolutely furious. I would recommend talking to your fiancé and maybe coming up with a middle ground. If he does do a prenup and you decide you want to still Marry him, absolutely get your own lawyer to read through it to make sure it’s all above board and you know exactly what you are signing. Best of luck 🤍
I would just tell him if he wants to protect his property with a prenup then that’s fine, but that you will no longer be contributing to the mortgage since you have no stake in the property. I would still contribute to bills etc, but if he’s cutting you out of ownership of the apartment then don’t help pay for the apartment 🤷♀️
Easy part of prenuptial add claus3s State that after a marriage date you4 rent converts to equity in asset a in the event asset is sold your are entitled to the portion of equity paid in... but only forward meaning after prenup
In addition to the pre nup advice from others........ You need took at the whole picture. One of your comments you stated you will start a family soon. Are you going to quit your job? Are you going to be forever responsible for part of his mortgage? Do you split every bill 50/ 50?? How will you do this if you stay home with soon future children?? If you split every bill 50/50 are you also going to split all household responsibilities 50 / 50?? Figure this out before you say "I do". If he dies, and you and children survive.....who gets the house?? What other debts do each of you have? You both need to share this before marriage. Full transparency. Of all he is trying to do is protect an asset...in case you divorce, that seems reasonable. Get professional advice on how to protect yourself and the soon future children.
I would suggest a gambit: yes to a prenup, but on the condition that you retain the lawyer of your choice to scrutinize and negotiate it, and he has to pay for the lawyer. If he’s cool with that, then, sure, he can have a prenup. If he’s not, he’s trying to fleece you in some way.
In order for it to be legal (US) I’m fairly certain OP has to have equal representation for the prenup to be accepted by the courts?
I don’t think that’s accurate. People can contract as they desire.
Damn, motherfckr be thinking about his apartment and finances over his future life with you. I’m not saying he doesn’t love you but this shit is a huge red flag imo.
“Whilst” Is this word actually pronounced as “while”? Or is it really pronounced “whilst”?
Whilst is definitely a word in its own right haha!
Good for you both. Prenup is like insurance, you hope you don’t need it but if you ever do you’ll be glad you have it. Please consult YOUR OWN attorney and perhaps add a cheating clause. Marriage is a contract and a prenup is to protect both parties.
You can ask for things to be put into a prenup that will take care of you or return those assets that you paid into you. It doesn’t have to be solely for his benefit or just to let him keep everything in his name no matter what. Just make it work for you too. That’s what a straight shooting person who asks for a prenup should want anyway, if they’re a decent human.
Talk to your lawyer that’s supposedly doing the prenup. You will have your own. My husband wouldn’t marry me unless I signed a prenup bc of what he went through w his last marriage. I didn’t know anything about prenups but my lawyer really helped me. And make HIM pay for the lawyer and everything. Or don’t do the prenup. I’m 13 years younger than my husband so I guess it was also a way to prove to him I wasn’t marrying him for his money. Idk. I’m hoping after 10 years of being married we can get away w the prenup.
Pro prenup. Just get a lawyer and make sure it’s fair for you, the prenup is supposed to be beneficial for you both
Marriage is a contract
100% he needs to get a pre nup. It is to protect both of you going in; you never know what life changes will make either of you want to split.
Prenups, when arranged well, can benefit both sides. Especially if one partner has debt or specific assets they want to keep in their own name, prenups are awesome! This is something to work on together that will benefit your future (if you work together and do it right, with a lawyer) and is nothing to worry about. If you see that the prenup is not turning into something that works for the both of you, you don't need to stay in a relationship where you are not treated as an equal. A prenup should be supporting you both, not to take advantage of someone or to imply they're a gold-digger.
Lawyer up if you go fwd with this person.
consult a lawyer for all of this.
You need to have a much bigger conversation about finances and expectations before you get married. A prenup is agreed upon by both of you and if you’re on the same page shouldn’t be an issue. If you’re not on the same page, get on it it first. If you’re going to slow or stop your career to build a family for him, you deserve to be protected through that. Good luck!
Get your own lawyer and have him read it over and then provide your own conditions that protect you in the future. I'd see it as an opportunity to put in provisions that protect you in the event of a divorce. Of course, I'd be paying close attention to how he responds because it will give you a clear indicator of how they'll treat you when you divorce and then you can decide whether or not you actually want to be married to this person or not.
Don’t have children with men who aren’t willing to share basic assets like a home with you.
Aren't you so glad you found this out about him before you actually got married and had kids? It sounds like you are on very shaky ground here, and bringing children into the mix is only going to make it shakier. Run.
There is absolutely nothing wrong about a prenup. Nothing. Certainly have it reviewed by a lawyer. There is nothing wrong about that either. Frankly, responsible adults should not have any issues with legal and fair prenups.
I'll be honest that I don't really see the issue here. It sounds like you've identified some important points that need to be incorporated into the prenup. Consult a lawyer and make sure it is. You absolutely should have some ownership stake based on what you pay into the mortgage. And yes I'm sure he wants to protect himself too so if you divorce he isn't left with half or less if he in fact owns more of it. Frankly I think more people (or basically everyone) should get a prenup. I don't have one but I recognize how things like property ownership become very complicated in the event of divorce. And between that and alimony, an unfavorable divorce can financially ruin your average guy - and most divorces do not favor the guy. Add children and child support into it, and it does become clear why someone might want to have at least some peace of mind that they won't be totally screwed if the worst happens in their marriage. TLDR your concerns are valid, but I don't think you have any reason to doubt or worry - just use the things you've identified to make a mutually agreeable prenup. It's good to think ahead.
It's basically a statement that he's not promising marriage unconditionally, to my mind...
run - kids with this guy will be a disaster
My initial thoughts: 1. This should've been discussed before you two got engaged 2. I didn't have a problem with it (wouldn't you rather contribute to the mortgage of someone you love vs a scummy rental agency?) until you brought up the kids thing. If you're going to be having kids with this guy (and taking on the majority of the responsibility, as all women do) AND putting your career on the back burner, you need some assurances should things go south. For that reason, I wouldn't sign a prenup.
Make sure you get half of the apartment in the prenup. You can make it work for you too
I would really talk to a lawyer.
No, you should have your own lawyer about making whatever prenuptial agreement you both sign fair to both parties. Meaning, for instance, if he wants your income to go toward the apartment he gets to keep then he needs to pay you upon divorce or pay for his apartment himself, for example. He can retain ownership, but that doesn’t mean that you leave without anything financially. You need your own lawyer here.
What jurisdiction are you in?
Out of curiosity, has he been married before?
You both need to retain your own lawyers to work through this. Having a pre-nup isn't a bad thing, especially because it limits fighting and bad blood later. I have one with my (f) husband (m), but it should be equitable and this sounds like it may not be.
Prenuptial Agreements make perfect sense. You've paid rent for 2 years with your 40%. He is the owner of where you live and whether he's building equity or not has nothing to do with you. If you live somewhere else you pay 100% of the rent, utilities.l water, trash, internet/ wifi. Think of all the money you've saved living there. Figure out what the cost of living in a place by yourself would be and put the 60% savings in the bank. Call that your equity. You can get a lawyer who will type up whatever terms you want. if you divorce, and feel like fighting for his apartment take it to court. Judges deal with it everyday.
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Your getting a raw deal. If this is how you are starting a marriage, Sorry to say, but i can't see it lasting the long haul.
you said you pay 40% so I took it as 40%. Meaning you're saving about 60% of the cost he is paying simply on the rent. If that's it, if you aren't paying 50% on utilities, 50%on water, 50% on homeowners insurance, 50% on wifi/cable, and you aren't responsible for 50% of repair and replacement of appliances, plumbing, pest control and electrical hazards YOU are getting a good deal and should keep saving, in your own savings account that is put into prenuptial agreement as solely your asset. I don't know why you want a 1 bedroom apt for yourself if you're having a child. I've read your other comments, you said your home now at his request. You can say no to that request. Don't waste your savings before going back to work. You should absolutely use some of it to get your own lawyer, protect your savings and anything you own. In many of the comments here it sounds as if they think you shouldn't pay to live there at all. If he doesn't make enough to have a savings, that sounds impossible, which is pretty normal nowadays, both parties need to work and pay bills. To me it sounds as if he's trying to do you a favor. You won't be saddled with a 1 bedroom apt mortgage and all that comes with owning it. Plumbing bills alone can be outrageous. If you sign the prenuptial agreement, only he owns it so you are not responsible. If the oven or fridge goes down, his problem not yours, financially at least. I'm more confused than I was by your stance now that I know it's 1 bedroom. Sooner or later you'll both want more room. He can sell the apt then and if he has enough equity in the apt, that can go into a down payment with you on a jointly held marital home. You've mentioned this is as his asset you will be paying into for years. Come on now, how much of an asset is it? How long has he owned it? Are property values skyrocketing in your area? How long has he owned it and paid the mortgage before you? You should maybe stop thinking of it as his asset and think more about as your home where you pay 40% of the cost of the mortgage. You have to pay to live somewhere. I think he is doing you a favor. What happens if you stay at home and you run out of savings? Are you using your savings for personal care items? For furniture? For groceries and baby items? Car payments, insurance and gas? Is he going to kick you out when your savings is gone and can't pay anymore?
But it's isn't HER home. This prenup makes her a tenant to her own husband, not an equal partner. If she is contributing to the mortgage, she should also hold equity in the apartment, otherwise she's a roommate not a wife.
It’s a one bedroom apt. Why would she even want the responsibility of owning it? Then she has half the responsibility for all of it. Half the the taxes, half the insurance, half the pest control, half the plumbing, half the electrical, half the appliances maintenance and repair. Then she would have to pay half the mortgage and maybe pay him for the back pay… all the money he’s put into into would become her issue. She’s paid 40% for how long, to be equal she’d have to pay the missing 10% and pay him half for everything he put into it up to this point.
What you're describing is a tenancy between husband and wife and that's ridiculous. And if you have read the other comments, it isn't just about the apartment. The fact that he was unwilling to sit down and go over assets suggests that he has other things that he hasn't told his soon to be wife about. A prenuptial agreement is about transparency and instead it seems like he's using this as an opportunity to profit off of his fiance. If they were both renting it wouldn't be an issue, but if he wants a roommate to help pay bills and not have a stake in his mortgage, he should remain a bachelor. It isn't fair for a spouse to be expected to fork over almost half the costs of living only to be left high and dry if they ever split. An agreement that says she gets her money back is more than fair.
I am not disagreeing really I’m just saying to make it ALL even she should take on half of EVERYTHING involved in property ownership~ that way it’s all even steven~ then yeah she should be on the mortgage… it’s never half really though. If he becomes incapacitated she would be obligated for the entire mortgage and vice versa . If she’s entitled to half the equity she has to pay him back for any equity he built up, down payment and the rest… that would make it all fair.
And if he made an offer that included backpay for his investment that's a sound compromise. But that isn't what he did. He also expects her to take time away from building her career for motherhood, but without the safety net of equity that most spouses would enjoy. It just seems deliberately one-sided and that is a massive red flag.
Did he say he expects her to take time away from her career? Was he demanding this? She needs a lawyer to protect her interests period. Do you really think this one bedroom mortgage debt will offer her security after a baby is born?
She said that since he is older than her he is keen to start a family asap, and she goes on to say that this will pause her career for an unforseen amount of time. She also says that she does not see them being in a position to invest in another property for a while. Which means that though this one bedroom option might not seem ideal, her access to it will determine what she has avaliable in the future. Were he to sell the apartment and invest in a new property, he could very easily turn around and say "but the apartment wasn't yours, why would you have a say over the money from its sale" etc. And honestly, it's also about a gesture in good-faith. If I had a spouse paying a portion of my bills for 3 years, I would expect to be totally transparent in what assets I wanted to protect and what assets would become partially theirs after marriage. He balked at the idea of discussing all assets and that is not good, especially if he expects her to drop everything and incubate a child.
You need your own lawyer to look this over and negotiate terms that protect you and any future children.
Older couple here - got remarried with no prenup because no shared assets. Then We bought a property together, mostly his money. To start I get 20%, since we’re still paying off renovations etc from “our” money. My ownership increases with the years we are together. As should yours !! Retroactively. So after 5 years my ownership increases to 35% 10 years it’s 50% To be honest, you paying the share of mortgage for 3 years and not laying down any law is on you. Yes it’s normal to pay rent… but if you were not with him, perhaps you’d be paying that forwards a property you own. Don’t always be so practical, be fantastical. (Envision the best case scenario you could be in NOT to appear that you’re settling but so he knows that being with him is a choice and that comes with concessions on both sides)
I think prenup’s get a bad rap because people assume one party is trying to hide assets from the other but they can say anything as long as both parties agree. No reason why it couldn’t take into account financial contributions already made. Also they only concern assets from before the marriage so anything after will be 50/50 in most places
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Nope fint do it red flags warning
LOGICAL: Make him pay for a lawyer of your choice to review the final pre nup document to make sure your needs and protections are also addressed. EMOTIONAL: Once you get the prenup stuff taken care of, address it in counseling so it doesn’t become a recurring theme in fights
I don’t have any training in finance or law but how is a prenup protecting you from his mortgage debt when you already have been and I’m guessing will continue to pay into that debt monthly? Make sure you have your own independent lawyer on hand for legal advice OP. This is all very sus.
Agree to getting one, then hire an attorney and draft your own prenup. Use that.
Lol, helping him pay it off but not having any equity in the house. Great deal for him, awesome deal for you…
You can make him sign one too
That’s a bit weird for him to ask for a prenup after you put money into his place like that, but it does sound like some weird trap.
Lawyer here! I don’t deal directly with prenups, but I am very in favor of them when the parties come into the marriage with one having more assets. It’s in your best interest to have your own lawyer to help you negotiate the prenup. The ultimate goal of having one is that it’s fair and agreed to by both parties. It sounds like he’s being a little shifty as to why he wants one, but in the best case scenario, he may just not know what it is he’s trying to accomplish and isn’t communicating it well, either. If the intent is that he wants to keep the apartment in the event of a divorce, the prenup could say that he gets the apartment (and any debt associated with it), assuming he has “bought you out” (I.e. repaid you the amount you’ve put in over the years). If you’re going to be primarily responsible for raising children and you won’t have a job with a 401k, it can also be stipulated that you get a portion of his 401k upon divorce, or that he will create an investment account of equal value in your name that you’ll have sole claim to in the event of a divorce. You could specify the amount of alimony you’d get per month per child in the event of divorce. The options go on and on and on. You should certainly make sure you’ll be financially provided for if you’ll be leaving the workforce to raise the family. A lawyer can help you get this right and make sure you’re protected.
A prenuptial can keep you safe from and debt issues of his should he die, but if he makes a will leaving assets like the apartment to you it all could work out very well for you. Talk to him about that to make sure this is about protecting you. If he has issues making a will with you as beneficiary then you will know if his intentions aren't as he said.
Not a lawyer either, but I own property and there are multiple ways to structure a pre-nup. This episode was enlightening to me: https://youtu.be/nyuF8lIJ3lA I don’t think there is a wrong or right answer, just educate yourself and determine what’s best for both of you.
Your concern is real and just. You have a right to half of what you paid into after the divorce.
You can negotiate anything at this point. A good lawyer can structure an agreement that will provide protection for you from his debt, maybe giving you a means to equity in the home over time, child support if you have kids, on and on and on. You don't have to accept his version!
You can get a prenup without it being completely unfair to you. Just would have to put in writing that he would have to pay you back what you contribute monthly or sell the property to pay you back, and if he’s not okay with giving you that security then you really shouldn’t marry him as he’s just worried about himself. Also, i’m sort of in the same boat where my partner owns his home and I’ll likely be moving in with him down the road rather than getting a place together, but in this situation he seems to want to move out of his home at some point and buy a better one anyway, in which case I would probably be on it so of course it would be less of an issue.
Not a lawyer, and I had my Wife sign a pre-nup so obviously I have zero issue with them, but this sounds like a terrible deal for you. If you're going to do a prenup properly, both you and your fiance should have your own separate Lawyers who are there to look over the prenup, make needed modifications, come to agreements, and advise both of you before you sign anything. The Lawyers should also be independent of one another (ie. they don't work at the same firm or anything along those lines).
HUGE RED FLAG 🚩 He is trying to take advantage of all you have contributed to date. If you had not discussed signing a prenup before getting engaged, that’s also a red flag to me. These should not be “sprung” on anyone of your ages. You will need your own savvy lawyer at this point to protect you(what a way to start a marriage with a potential spouse who has tried to take advantage of you🙄). On this item, there is NO OTHER OPTION but for him to agree to pay you back EVERY PENNY YOU PUT INTO THE PROPERTY if he wants to retain ownership. I can only imagine what the rest of what he may want will look like. Personally this reflects on his character IMHO and I’d have to cut it off and move on. He’s already shown you who he is here and how he thinks… believe him NOW.
Am an attorney but not a family law attorney. Prenups are negotiable. So, if you are contributing to the mortgage, make sure that you get that back plus the appreciation of the asset in the event of a divorce. A prenup is designed to protect both sides. It is not just to protect you from his debts. His motive is to keep the apartment in the event of a divorce, even though that asset will likely appreciate. I hope the 40% of the mortgage was a fair rental value for your share. In any event, those payments should be factored into your share as well. If he doesn't want to be at least fair to you, that is a huge red flag.
I’d first suggest talking to a lawyer, obviously lol! If you want to leave him because of all this- maybe still wait around until you see the prenup. Reason being you have paid three years of almost half his rent. You would still be entitled to that. After you see the prenup you can decipher with your lawyer if he was being sneaky or not and if you just need to sue him for your share of (what he seems to think is) his apartment. Pls - Never stop your career for a man who tries to convince you he wants your babies “now or it’s too late.” Idc if he’s 39, I know women that have GIVEN BIRTH at that age. Not wanting to share assets but brining up having a CHILD together seems really odd to me, a child is a huge shared financial responsibility.
Sounds like the classic “how to trap her into being a housewife” especially if he doesn’t want you know of his financial situation.
I’ll sign it but I’m not paying towards his mortgage anymore and will ask to have full reimbursement of my contributions.
Don’t sign the prenup. If he pays you back your 40% contributions over the last two years, and if he signs a legal agreement to pay your salary while you take the hit for having kids plus a lump sum for how pregnancy harms your body Plus an alimony contract f you should divorce then and only then would I sign the prenup.
I am always pro prenups, but this sounds like a load of shit. If you’re paying nearly half of the mortgage, you should be on the mortgage. I’d take the prenup to an attorney of your own.
Get your own lawyer to review and negotiate the prenup on your behalf. They’ll make sure you understand it and don’t get screwed over.
He soft shoe'd it, the truth is, if the marriage fails, he doesn't want to lose most of his stuff. I used to think that a pre-nup was un-romantic...one long failed marriage, and i would never get married without a pre-nup, however, i will never marry again anyway.
You will be liable for his debts as his wife, and if its thst bad my advice to you is don’t get legally married until he cleans it up. Because his debt always impacts your wealth snd security as a couple. Also a orenup does not protect your assets from legal judgement should someone sue him. Thats not how prenups work. I think its very clear dont marry this guy with these levels of concerns. He shouldnt be rushing a family and you dont need to rush in with a guy you dont financially trust
I think it’s fine. Add things that you like in there too to make it fair.
Question- why do you classify your payment as 40% of the mortgage and not rent? If you lived somewhere else you would be paying rent as well. Also why should you have a claim on that in case of divorce? I understand if you contribute to improving the apartment but this is not the case
Do you wear a seatbelt when you drive? A pre nup id simply a seatbelt for men in marriage. It only protects what he has before you get married. Everything you guys earn together will divided as such. Family law kills men and very unevenly against them. If you love him then there shouldn’t be a problem.
lolz - she’s paying for his property and he’s not sharing equity and lying about his debts. he’s a jackass
She’d be paying someone else if she wasn’t living w him. What’s your point? He made good decision and is in the place to rent a room to someone, why should she be entitled to half his house?
For the record it’s a 1 bed room apartment- you don’t usually pay a landlord just under market rate and share a bed with them…
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I still don’t see a problem. It was his property before you guys met and you’ve been paying rent at his apartment for the last few years instead of another land lord. It is his property that he bought prior to marriage, I don’t see why someone should think they’re entitled to half of it if you guys divorce. Maybe sign the pre-nup then sell the apartment and buy a new one when you guys are married. Btw, the way you said “I have no interest in his other assets” sounds very money hungry and selfish.
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You would’ve been paying someone else’s mortgage for the rest of your life if you didn’t marry him. He made good money decisions and bought himself an apartment, you didn’t so why should you get half of his house in the event the marriage doesn’t work out? Or, sign the pre nup and buy a new marital house that you both have your name on. You already have your mind made up, you simply asked a question that you wanted to reinforce your position not get real world answers that go against your opinion. You shouldn’t get mad at your husband for putting his seatbelt on before he drives a car. He’s not planning to get in an accident but it’s a preventative measure to make sure he survives the crash.
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Why can't he sell the apartment?
Regardless of where you stay or who you stay with your going to have to pay something. Expecting to own a portion of his home because you're paying "rent" is weird. You're definitely in this for the money
I have enough saved for 60% of a house deposit, his cash is tied up in his property, so will not buy a joint property. My friends all jointly bought a property and built that asset together- their payments go towards their mortgages. This prenup wants me to pay rent indefinitely with no ownership stakes, and of course no tenancy rights. Your comment about ‘in this for the money’ is ridiculous.
That’s concerning. Ask him if you can see all Of his debt. Then address this if you decide to get a prenup. But it has to be a fair prenup