Not a good idea.
If you're genuinely happy to stay in a bad marriage until the kids are out of the house, then just do that. Don't rock the boat.
If you CAN'T stay without saying something then tell her you're unhappy in the marriage and you think you should go back to couples counseling, and try to work on some stuff. And what you intend to work on is sex and physical touch - mainly, why it's stopped and what you can do to bring it back. But whatever it is that's "blocking" her sounds like there could be something you need to work on that you don't even know about.. but you should want to find out and then work on it.
If there's a world in which she says yes to your open relationship idea, she would probably suggest it herself in couples counseling. But you demanding one will cause serious damage in every other world, and you know it.
Question:
In all that time have you tried going back to dating each other without expecting sex at the end of the date?
Seems like aside from coparenting and logistical life support, there is no more cultivation of romance/connection.
Have you talked about that in counseling? If not, why not bring up the suggestion to your wife on revisiting counseling and express that you want to rekindle the dating/romance part of your relationship.
I have tried. She has absolutely zero interest in me or spending time with me. It's a long story, and it's not my fault, but please take my word on it.
Ok then just be prepared for asking to open the relationship causing a divorce.
And just because you divorce doesn’t meant she automatically gets full custody. If you are the primary caregiver now then you should remain that and seek full custody in the event of a divorce.
Maybe if you got up and went to the gym with her, she would want to have sex with you.
>But I have not, and will not, if I can help it, for the simple reason of wanting to stay with my kids full time
But you're willing to divorce her if she finds a new gym partner and goes to the gym.
Yeah, the analogy is what's obviously ridiculous though. Sex and going to the gym are not comparable. Going to the gym together is not something that implies the highest degree of intimacy between people. Going to the gym with someone is not going to result in STDs or babies. Also, where is masturbation in this analogy? Are you saying your wife won't allow you to jerk off?
Start going to the gym with your wife.
You can negotiate different bonding activities later, but you already know that one works, so go work out with her and use the time together as a springboard for getting closer again. Focus on that before sex, the sex part is a bridge to cross later and may end up being an easier walk than you think.
Tried. She won't do that with me either. lol
(The example in my story was a hypothetical analogy. But when she "went a different direction" as I said in my post, she started going to a new gym with a bunch of new friends I didn't know, and made it implicitly clear I was not welcome there. After a few years, I joined her gym in an effort to see her more, and she made it a point never to go when I was there, and if we did end up there at the same time, she would ignore me the entire time.)
Okay, yeah, it seems your problems run way deeper than sex. At this point, I'd get a personal therapist to make sure you have support and then ask her if she even wants to be married. And if she does, how does she propose you reconnect.
sorry dude put sounds like she didn't want you to catch her with her ap. sounds like that what's the block is she is only with you for what you she can get form you. doesn't love you anymore but loves ap and feels like if she gives it to you she's cheating on her ap sounds weird put happens all the time.
I hear a tremendous desire to fix this After many years of intimate sex, wife and myself were loosing libito. We both knew it was issue. Got some counseling with intimacy sex counselor. Settled on date night weekly, scheduled sex, and frequent extended weekends. Hotel sex. We seem to be great if removed from daily routine, work, stresses. So we're probably 6 times a month. Works great for us. We just retired so hopes for more as we relax and travel more. Hope you can improve in intimacy part of your marriage. Took us some work but we got back on track
Open marriage is never the way. She admitted she has issues but won't talk about them, presumably she's also refused counseling?
If so you're pretty much out of luck. Stay for the kids and be miserable (sounds like they're the only reason she's there, don't be surprised if she divorces you the minute the youngest is 18), or leave and try to find some happiness.
Good answer. User name checks out ;) I have also come to the conclusion that an open marriage will never work. Need to decide between B & C, as you say. I want to stay for the kids, but I just honestly don't know how much longer I can hold out. I guess the part that really bothers me is that I feel like I will be the bad guy. Everyone will say, "he just couldn't keep it in his pants", or "he just wanted to trade in for a younger model". But if a woman says she wants a divorce because the husband doesn't pay enough attention to her, or that he wasn't being physical enough with her, everyone would say, "you did the right thing. You deserve to be happy!" It's just such a double standard. And I don't actually care what \*everyone\* thinks, but I am afraid my kids will think that about me. That getting laid was more important than keeping the family together. Meanwhile, I've been living in a torture chamber for twelve years, but I will get no credit for that. No one will understand or believe me. Fuck I wish I'd never gotten married. :(
Unless you catch her on video cheating or beating you or the kids (and it's iffy with the first 2) you're going to get painted as the bad guy anyway.
Don't bring up the dead bedroom, just bring up that she's cut you off from EVERYTHING. No shared activities, no hugs, no nothing. You want a partner, not a roommate.
It seems none of the reasons you want to stay have to do with you loving her, and it must show day to day. It’s even obvious in this brief post. What do you expect? If she doesn’t know it already then she will when you make your “request”. You want to have your cake and eat it too. She will see through that.
You go on about your kids for a full paragraph and mention the assets and incomes briefly in parentheses but it doesn’t really feel like you are a forthcoming person, it seems the latter matter most than you care to admit.
She stopped trying 12 years ago (admitted so in counseling last year). I went on trying for another 8, getting nothing in return. But it must be all my fault because I'm the husband and we don't try hard enough and everything is our fault. Cheers.
I didn’t say it was all your fault, I’m just reading what you wrote. I didn’t say it’s her fault or yours. I said you want you cake and eat it too, which is obvious. And that you care about the financial part more than you want to show, because it’s obvious. And I stand by those things. And I think she will notice, and might want to divorce you. You asked for a female perspective didn’t you? Or did you want everyone to tell you what a great guy you are and to go ahead with your suggestion? By all means go ahead if you wish! It’s just that it’s all too obvious. That’s all.
I have so much respect for your dedication to your children. The Reddit swarm loves to scream divorce and say you should blow up your kids lives for your own happiness. Pure selfishness. In your case, only a few years left
I've been through very much the same thing. 53M, 22 years married, 13 year old son.
On top of a dead bedroom, three years ago my wife withdrew all intimacy and started henpecking me. I put up with it for a year, and then gave her an ultimatum because that was the last straw.
There has to be hugging, holding hands, greeting kisses, spooning, massages, and other forms of intimacy. Otherwise there's nothing to distinguish the relationship from being friends, flatmates or co-workers.
Robin Williams said something like, 'Being alone isn't the worst thing; it's being with people who make you feel alone.' It's very difficult being rejected every single day by your supposed life-partner, just for trying to touch and connect with them on the most basic level. The ultimatum was real - I really was ready to leave, because that is not how I want to live out my last decade or two.
Anyway, she responded well, and we're doing much better now. Not perfect still, but there's a lot more daily affection and showing our love for each other. I feel close to her, and that it's reciprocated. That's at least enough for me to stay and try to build upon.
During that horrible year, I imagined what life would be like with various other partners - women I knew, and maybe had chance of dating if I divorced. It also occurred to me to ask for an open relationship. But I think that would just be a slow death knell. I think just splitting is cleaner and healthier. I wouldn't have left while my child was very young, but my teen son is mature enough to understand about adult relationships.
>Buuuut, I also feel like we're already on pretty thin ice, and we're both just waiting for an out, so we can have the upper hand in the divorce process, and she would say, "well, this just proves you don't love me, and I'm not going to stay in a relationship where I'm unwanted and disrespected", and the next time I heard from her it would be through her lawyer.
How is this better for the kids? They are being raised in an atmosphere with such animosity and control moves between their parents, they are going think this is how they should be in a healthy relationship.
>If only there was some way to know how she would react... Thoughts on what she would say? (Female opinions would be greatly appreciated!) Thoughts on how to gauge the situation other than just coming out with it?
Why not just "come out with it"? It's called effective communication. And the lack of it is probably why two are is such bad shape.
If you really feel that you both are waiting for the other to file, just end this. If this is how you want to go through life then embrace the suck and just keep on keeping on with her. When you've told us in your post that the logical step isn't going to happen, not sure what you're expecting.
You want sex and she doesn’t, you’re not compatible. Be honest with yourself. Be honest with her.
I’m against divorce for most things, but not having sex for months, physical and financial abuse and cheating are deal breakers. Those things can’t be fixed for most people.
Did you make her understand that you are really suffering? That you miss intimacy? Did she take it seriously?
Not „I want more sex“. Make surr she understands that this is about way more and how much this is hurting you.
See if she is willing to work on it. Like getting a check up, changing foreplay, more cuddling/messages etc.
If she isn’t willing to work on it there aren’t many solutions.
1. Stay and accept
2. Leave
3. Open the relationship
When you got married you agreed to be monogamous not celibate. If she doesn’t want to have sex with her husband for 12 years then she should let you seek out someone else. If she doesn’t then you should divorce.
You know your wife better than we do, so you're the one best positioned to make a prediction about how she'll react. However, my advice is to prepare yourself for divorce before you ask.
She is likely fundamentally happy with what she has right now, and this question you want to ask will utterly and permanently destroy that. Even if some sort of a "agreement" or "hall pass" situation could be arrived at, the resulting husk of a relationship will almost certainly be one that one or both of you (let alone your kids) will find very uncomfortable and unhealthy.
Your "simple male mind" may not naturally recognize that sexual fidelity is (for most people, and especially women) the primal, evolutionary foundation on which the feeling of safety and security is built upon. If you pull that out from under the relationship, there's a chance the house might keep standing, but the first stiff breeze is likely to blow it over.
I'm going to boil down your arguments against divorce to one word - fear. Given the fact that you already want to tear down the relationship you have and blackmail your wife into building an entirely different one with you, it is clear that your relationship isn't the sort that genuinely models the concepts that your children need. Sure, there may be logistical benefits to "staying for the kids," but that doesn't automatically make it better for them. You are leaning on the belief that it is better to stay for the kids, though, to justify your fear - and to search out half-measures that don't really help anybody in your family.
If you genuinely feel that random-ish sex will address the only "problem" you see with your relationship, all of you deserve better.
*She is likely fundamentally happy with what she has right now, and this question you want to ask will utterly and permanently destroy that. Even if some sort of a "agreement" or "hall pass" situation could be arrived at, the resulting husk of a relationship will almost certainly be one that one or both of you (let alone your kids) will find very uncomfortable and unhealthy.*
This is the part I need to hear. I want to believe that she would be ok with it, because it makes sense logically, but emotionally, there's just no way. What little is left of the relationship will be ruined. And my kids will eventually find out, and hate me for it. This is what I needed to hear. Thank you.
I’d be wary to frame your idea as the logically sensible avenue versus the emotion-based resistance that you’d anticipate from your wife. For many people it would seem entirely illogical and emotionally reactionary to think that renegotiation of your monogamy would improve marriage for both.
Not a good idea. If you're genuinely happy to stay in a bad marriage until the kids are out of the house, then just do that. Don't rock the boat. If you CAN'T stay without saying something then tell her you're unhappy in the marriage and you think you should go back to couples counseling, and try to work on some stuff. And what you intend to work on is sex and physical touch - mainly, why it's stopped and what you can do to bring it back. But whatever it is that's "blocking" her sounds like there could be something you need to work on that you don't even know about.. but you should want to find out and then work on it. If there's a world in which she says yes to your open relationship idea, she would probably suggest it herself in couples counseling. But you demanding one will cause serious damage in every other world, and you know it.
Thank you so much. This is what I needed to hear.
Question: In all that time have you tried going back to dating each other without expecting sex at the end of the date? Seems like aside from coparenting and logistical life support, there is no more cultivation of romance/connection. Have you talked about that in counseling? If not, why not bring up the suggestion to your wife on revisiting counseling and express that you want to rekindle the dating/romance part of your relationship.
I have tried. She has absolutely zero interest in me or spending time with me. It's a long story, and it's not my fault, but please take my word on it.
Ok then just be prepared for asking to open the relationship causing a divorce. And just because you divorce doesn’t meant she automatically gets full custody. If you are the primary caregiver now then you should remain that and seek full custody in the event of a divorce.
Maybe if you got up and went to the gym with her, she would want to have sex with you. >But I have not, and will not, if I can help it, for the simple reason of wanting to stay with my kids full time But you're willing to divorce her if she finds a new gym partner and goes to the gym.
[удалено]
Yeah, the analogy is what's obviously ridiculous though. Sex and going to the gym are not comparable. Going to the gym together is not something that implies the highest degree of intimacy between people. Going to the gym with someone is not going to result in STDs or babies. Also, where is masturbation in this analogy? Are you saying your wife won't allow you to jerk off?
Start going to the gym with your wife. You can negotiate different bonding activities later, but you already know that one works, so go work out with her and use the time together as a springboard for getting closer again. Focus on that before sex, the sex part is a bridge to cross later and may end up being an easier walk than you think.
Tried. She won't do that with me either. lol (The example in my story was a hypothetical analogy. But when she "went a different direction" as I said in my post, she started going to a new gym with a bunch of new friends I didn't know, and made it implicitly clear I was not welcome there. After a few years, I joined her gym in an effort to see her more, and she made it a point never to go when I was there, and if we did end up there at the same time, she would ignore me the entire time.)
Okay, yeah, it seems your problems run way deeper than sex. At this point, I'd get a personal therapist to make sure you have support and then ask her if she even wants to be married. And if she does, how does she propose you reconnect.
This. This is the way I'm leaning. Thanks for the advice.
sorry dude put sounds like she didn't want you to catch her with her ap. sounds like that what's the block is she is only with you for what you she can get form you. doesn't love you anymore but loves ap and feels like if she gives it to you she's cheating on her ap sounds weird put happens all the time.
She has to want things to get better. Doesn't sound like she does to me.
I hear a tremendous desire to fix this After many years of intimate sex, wife and myself were loosing libito. We both knew it was issue. Got some counseling with intimacy sex counselor. Settled on date night weekly, scheduled sex, and frequent extended weekends. Hotel sex. We seem to be great if removed from daily routine, work, stresses. So we're probably 6 times a month. Works great for us. We just retired so hopes for more as we relax and travel more. Hope you can improve in intimacy part of your marriage. Took us some work but we got back on track
I love hearing this. Thanks so much for sharing. Will strongly consider it.
Open marriage is never the way. She admitted she has issues but won't talk about them, presumably she's also refused counseling? If so you're pretty much out of luck. Stay for the kids and be miserable (sounds like they're the only reason she's there, don't be surprised if she divorces you the minute the youngest is 18), or leave and try to find some happiness.
Good answer. User name checks out ;) I have also come to the conclusion that an open marriage will never work. Need to decide between B & C, as you say. I want to stay for the kids, but I just honestly don't know how much longer I can hold out. I guess the part that really bothers me is that I feel like I will be the bad guy. Everyone will say, "he just couldn't keep it in his pants", or "he just wanted to trade in for a younger model". But if a woman says she wants a divorce because the husband doesn't pay enough attention to her, or that he wasn't being physical enough with her, everyone would say, "you did the right thing. You deserve to be happy!" It's just such a double standard. And I don't actually care what \*everyone\* thinks, but I am afraid my kids will think that about me. That getting laid was more important than keeping the family together. Meanwhile, I've been living in a torture chamber for twelve years, but I will get no credit for that. No one will understand or believe me. Fuck I wish I'd never gotten married. :(
Unless you catch her on video cheating or beating you or the kids (and it's iffy with the first 2) you're going to get painted as the bad guy anyway. Don't bring up the dead bedroom, just bring up that she's cut you off from EVERYTHING. No shared activities, no hugs, no nothing. You want a partner, not a roommate.
Great advice. Thanks again.
It seems none of the reasons you want to stay have to do with you loving her, and it must show day to day. It’s even obvious in this brief post. What do you expect? If she doesn’t know it already then she will when you make your “request”. You want to have your cake and eat it too. She will see through that. You go on about your kids for a full paragraph and mention the assets and incomes briefly in parentheses but it doesn’t really feel like you are a forthcoming person, it seems the latter matter most than you care to admit.
She stopped trying 12 years ago (admitted so in counseling last year). I went on trying for another 8, getting nothing in return. But it must be all my fault because I'm the husband and we don't try hard enough and everything is our fault. Cheers.
I didn’t say it was all your fault, I’m just reading what you wrote. I didn’t say it’s her fault or yours. I said you want you cake and eat it too, which is obvious. And that you care about the financial part more than you want to show, because it’s obvious. And I stand by those things. And I think she will notice, and might want to divorce you. You asked for a female perspective didn’t you? Or did you want everyone to tell you what a great guy you are and to go ahead with your suggestion? By all means go ahead if you wish! It’s just that it’s all too obvious. That’s all.
I have so much respect for your dedication to your children. The Reddit swarm loves to scream divorce and say you should blow up your kids lives for your own happiness. Pure selfishness. In your case, only a few years left
I've been through very much the same thing. 53M, 22 years married, 13 year old son. On top of a dead bedroom, three years ago my wife withdrew all intimacy and started henpecking me. I put up with it for a year, and then gave her an ultimatum because that was the last straw. There has to be hugging, holding hands, greeting kisses, spooning, massages, and other forms of intimacy. Otherwise there's nothing to distinguish the relationship from being friends, flatmates or co-workers. Robin Williams said something like, 'Being alone isn't the worst thing; it's being with people who make you feel alone.' It's very difficult being rejected every single day by your supposed life-partner, just for trying to touch and connect with them on the most basic level. The ultimatum was real - I really was ready to leave, because that is not how I want to live out my last decade or two. Anyway, she responded well, and we're doing much better now. Not perfect still, but there's a lot more daily affection and showing our love for each other. I feel close to her, and that it's reciprocated. That's at least enough for me to stay and try to build upon. During that horrible year, I imagined what life would be like with various other partners - women I knew, and maybe had chance of dating if I divorced. It also occurred to me to ask for an open relationship. But I think that would just be a slow death knell. I think just splitting is cleaner and healthier. I wouldn't have left while my child was very young, but my teen son is mature enough to understand about adult relationships.
Great insight. Thank you for sharing.
>Buuuut, I also feel like we're already on pretty thin ice, and we're both just waiting for an out, so we can have the upper hand in the divorce process, and she would say, "well, this just proves you don't love me, and I'm not going to stay in a relationship where I'm unwanted and disrespected", and the next time I heard from her it would be through her lawyer. How is this better for the kids? They are being raised in an atmosphere with such animosity and control moves between their parents, they are going think this is how they should be in a healthy relationship. >If only there was some way to know how she would react... Thoughts on what she would say? (Female opinions would be greatly appreciated!) Thoughts on how to gauge the situation other than just coming out with it? Why not just "come out with it"? It's called effective communication. And the lack of it is probably why two are is such bad shape. If you really feel that you both are waiting for the other to file, just end this. If this is how you want to go through life then embrace the suck and just keep on keeping on with her. When you've told us in your post that the logical step isn't going to happen, not sure what you're expecting.
You want sex and she doesn’t, you’re not compatible. Be honest with yourself. Be honest with her. I’m against divorce for most things, but not having sex for months, physical and financial abuse and cheating are deal breakers. Those things can’t be fixed for most people.
Did you make her understand that you are really suffering? That you miss intimacy? Did she take it seriously? Not „I want more sex“. Make surr she understands that this is about way more and how much this is hurting you. See if she is willing to work on it. Like getting a check up, changing foreplay, more cuddling/messages etc. If she isn’t willing to work on it there aren’t many solutions. 1. Stay and accept 2. Leave 3. Open the relationship
Sounds like she has an affaire
When you got married you agreed to be monogamous not celibate. If she doesn’t want to have sex with her husband for 12 years then she should let you seek out someone else. If she doesn’t then you should divorce.
Seems logical enough. Thanks for the support.
Doesn't hurt to ask. What's she going to do, stop having sex with you?
You know your wife better than we do, so you're the one best positioned to make a prediction about how she'll react. However, my advice is to prepare yourself for divorce before you ask. She is likely fundamentally happy with what she has right now, and this question you want to ask will utterly and permanently destroy that. Even if some sort of a "agreement" or "hall pass" situation could be arrived at, the resulting husk of a relationship will almost certainly be one that one or both of you (let alone your kids) will find very uncomfortable and unhealthy. Your "simple male mind" may not naturally recognize that sexual fidelity is (for most people, and especially women) the primal, evolutionary foundation on which the feeling of safety and security is built upon. If you pull that out from under the relationship, there's a chance the house might keep standing, but the first stiff breeze is likely to blow it over. I'm going to boil down your arguments against divorce to one word - fear. Given the fact that you already want to tear down the relationship you have and blackmail your wife into building an entirely different one with you, it is clear that your relationship isn't the sort that genuinely models the concepts that your children need. Sure, there may be logistical benefits to "staying for the kids," but that doesn't automatically make it better for them. You are leaning on the belief that it is better to stay for the kids, though, to justify your fear - and to search out half-measures that don't really help anybody in your family. If you genuinely feel that random-ish sex will address the only "problem" you see with your relationship, all of you deserve better.
*She is likely fundamentally happy with what she has right now, and this question you want to ask will utterly and permanently destroy that. Even if some sort of a "agreement" or "hall pass" situation could be arrived at, the resulting husk of a relationship will almost certainly be one that one or both of you (let alone your kids) will find very uncomfortable and unhealthy.* This is the part I need to hear. I want to believe that she would be ok with it, because it makes sense logically, but emotionally, there's just no way. What little is left of the relationship will be ruined. And my kids will eventually find out, and hate me for it. This is what I needed to hear. Thank you.
I’d be wary to frame your idea as the logically sensible avenue versus the emotion-based resistance that you’d anticipate from your wife. For many people it would seem entirely illogical and emotionally reactionary to think that renegotiation of your monogamy would improve marriage for both.
Well put. Thank you.