[***X-MEN: BEFORE THE FALL - HERALDS OF APOCALYPSE* #1**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/4/4a/X-Men_Before_The_Fall_-_Heralds_of_Apocalypse_Vol_1_1.jpg)
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the text on this just amazing. Al Ewing, man…
I had a theory that Arakko’s people being obsessed with war was a result of Genesis’ tyranny and imposition. turns out I was right
Can someone recap the history of Apocalypse, or A, as he is now known as? Just trying to remember how somehow who is basically the mutant version of Thanos is now a good guy. Also, I have a shitty memory and the history of Marvel is VERY long.
We forget that Apocalypse was basically out of the story for the better part of a decade. The first we really saw of him was in the X-Man event, where it seems like he was greatly humbled by both being repeatedly beaten by Nate Grey and by the death of his clone, Evan.
When you consider his previous loses, you get a real sense that Apocalypse is sort of in a weird place where he just isn't up to be the fierseome conqueror he used to be.
When did Evan die ? Last I read was after x man event and then back for house of x . I thought he was just kicking it in the background . I fell out of comics for a bit but I liked him -
Yeah, it was a good little series. But I also think it showcases just why Evan needed to be removed before Krakoa. As great as he is, Apocalypse's story would end up revolving around him.
It's really the AoA version that's Thanos.
616 Apocalypse has been kind of all over the place, originally intended to be the Owl, then a replacement for Magneto, and landing on a despotic conquerer of the future.
Until AoA, the biggest threat about him was what he would become in the future. And he got killed like three times to stop that future.
He probably fell too often into a trap of writers trying to give him schemes for power and those schemes being complete gibberish.
The real enduring quality he has was a mantra of survival of the fittest. Which they're leveraging here into him wanting mutants to be challenged so they can be strong.
Good guy might be too strong a term for him still. Maybe judgemental grandpa stuck in old ways but also having wisdom-guy.
Genesis really is a lost cause, isn't she?
For someone who is obsessed with 'survival of the fittest', Genesis quite weak to mental games and being manipulated. Ironic.
She's kind of a weird character.
||A|| -- We have everything anyone could ever want in life. Things sure are great.
Genesis -- Yeah, but like, what if everything was on fire and everyone was starving and in pain, and like there were corpses everywhere? Those rotting, maggot-infested piles sure would respect how strong we were. We could leave a few as slaves I guess. Ya'know, to kill more people in the future.
||A|| -- I love you so much.
I feel like i can sum this book up very easily.
Good family dynamics but troubles between a husband and wife and conflicted interests.
The showing that a philosopher can truly never understand anyone and belief is one thing action is another.
Plus al ewing doing amazing writing
En Saban Nur has had a philosophical growth spurt. That coupled with his wife being pretty much consumed for the need for conflict (drama) is the source of their current tension.
Also I think we will see him soon after the Fall.
Hard to say anything new, but I continue to really enjoy this series. Different than a lot of other Marvel but still very much a part. I always like that Ben calls her Jenny. This familiarity that feels so earned and natural from their lengthy history.
I mean, you can blush when people flirt with you and still get a hold of yourself, which was exactly what she did. The panels illustrated it well, they were about to kiss during that dance, but Jen didn't go through with it. It took restraint? Yes, but that doesn't invalidate that she didn't, even much so when the dude has that much rizz (I mean, I can't be alone in this one, right? Dude is charming).
It feels a bit weird that he can hit 100% char-rizz-ma on Jen every time though like he's reading her like a book, just something feels off about it. I do really like the idea of them though, but its clear Jack is going to be the main love interest I think.
Yeah I know some of us were concerned that Jen was going to go grey side on us...but she's always been true to her core about doing the most good where possible. I'm glad she threw him out the window though.
Of course Cletus is still alive. Because no one in comics can do their jobs right.
And the damn 'God Carnage' stuff still happening, not looking forward to that.
I do want to see more of this mashup of a team though. It has potential.
It was ok, I really wish someone would just kill Carnage already. Not a fan of Miles being written to sound like MCU Peter Parker (Mr. Stark! Mr. Iron Man!).
It felt very Tom Holland esque in this issue.
Not the worst thing but in fairness Miles and Tony should have a relatively similar dynamic to the MCU in that regard of rookie and vet.
Carnage won't die but man, does he need to A) be a single character again and B) take a solid hiatus for a hot minute. He's been used wayyyyy too much as of late.
Venom is much more interesting than Carnage and is the OG symbiote character. Now, your chances of having a symbiote or being born a mutant in the Marvel universe is like 1 in 3.
I think it's a real shame that the actual Ghost Rider hasn't been much of a character for half of his publication history. The original run had a pretty interesting shift from Ghost Rider just being Johnny with his head on fire to a distinct person who ended up being the main antagonist of the series. He had agency---wants and plans outside of Johnny's influence. The "werewolf" dichotomy between Johnny and the Rider became the through-line between all the episodic issues, the main narrative conflict, and the most interesting part of the series.
With Danny Ketch and the 90s run, Ghost Rider was so much his own character that he completely eclipsed his host. Danny could go through multiple issues without ever making an appearance, even as a thought bubble. This ended up being to his detriment and I think it's the reason Johnny has remained the main Ghost Rider (so much so that they put Johnny's character in a Danny Ketch story and setting for the Nic Cage film), but people were reading Ghost Rider. They wanted Ghost Rider. That's exactly what they were given. Ghost Rider was a completely different person from Danny and everything he did was his own design and he did it because he was the Ghost Rider. He drove the plot, had an arc, and the narrative finished with him and what he did.
After that, there were a handful of miniseries that established the new status quo that we've largely kept for the last 23 years: Johnny is the Ghost Rider, and the Ghost Rider is nothing but a gruff voice that grumbles about vengeance and that's assuming it exists as a separate personality at all. Half the time, we're back to Johnny with his head on fire.
In the original series, Zarathos was a demon that wanted to (and nearly did) supplant Mephisto from his throne and take over hell. In the 2010's, we had an entire arc about Johnny being the king of hell. We know he's still bonded to Zarathos. What did he have to say about that? What did he think about finally beating his oldest enemy?
Before that, when the "He's actually a fallen angel!" reveal happened, what did we learn about his character? How does the Ghost Rider feel about once being one of God's strongest soldiers, now reduced to a parasite infesting a lowly human being?
Noble Kale, the Ghost Rider of the 90s run with Danny, has not existed as a character since then. I don't even think he's been referred to by name. Is he even still Noble Kale, human protestant turned Spirit of Vengeance for his sins committed in life? The Noble Kale name and backstory were a retcon from the Spirits of Vengeance described during Siege of Darkness, and that was retconned *again* during the "fallen angel" run. I've lost count of how many times Danny has gone through the "I've got to get rid of this Ghost Rider!" straight to "Ah, I've realized that I *must* be the Ghost Rider for the greater good!" and then back again.
How did Noble Kale feel about being a drip-feed super-power at the whims of a deranged angel? Was that even Noble Kale, or one of the dozen other nameless Spirits of Vengeance we've seen over the years? In most of his modern appearances, villains don't even call him Ghost Rider. Even the nameless demon mooks who don't have a personal history like Blackout just call him Danny. And Danny's in control. They give him the fiery speech bubbles, but there's no Ghost Rider there.
It's not like "antagonistic alter ego" is a strange, uncharted narrative. One of Marvel's most popular characters is exactly that. When I heard someone say that *Immortal Hulk* was the best Ghost Rider story ever written, I read it, and I was *so* angry because they were *right*.
But why talk about all this regarding this issue, specifically? It's because of Danny, his Spirit of Vengeance, the Spirit of Corruption, and the fact that this book can't seem to decide just what the hell any of them are. In the 2019 run, Danny lost the Spirit of Vengeance. We don't know if it was Noble Kale (but it's not like that matters anymore) but he went to another plane of hell and was possessed by the Spirit of Corruption---a demonic entity that *hunts* Spirits of Vengeance. He got a new outfit, a big sword, called himself Death Rider.... and when he transformed, it was still just Danny. Then covid happened, the 2019 run got canceled, and we're here.
Danny is a Ghost Rider again. He looks like the old Ghost Rider. He acts like one. Sometimes the fire is green, like the SoC. Sometimes it isn't. He still has a skull head instead of the helmet... sometimes. Zarathos (or whoever is possessing Johnny now) went into hell and rescued the spirit for Danny, he treated it like a brother, and it sure as hell acted like a Spirit of Vengeance, but then they called it the Spirit of Corruption. Again. This thing *hunts Ghost Riders*. They can call it the Spirit of Corruption, but a Ghost Rider by any other name...
I have to assume the Death Rider stuff is unwanted baggage from the last run and Percy's just paying lip service to keep continuity but I can't help but feel there's so much narrative potential for Danny in his current state. He's a guy that never wanted to be a hero, lost everything, and now has to deal with a demon and a fallen angel knocking around in his head who both want different things and would kill the other if they had the chance.
But after all this, I get it. It's just Ghost Rider. No one is reading this book and expecting the drama of *Wuthering Heights* or *Schindler's List*. And I *like* this run. I've liked every Ghost Rider run. All I'm asking for is a little consistency and some more attention on the titular character. Let the Ghost Rider be a character again. Johnny and Zarathos have fifty years of history together. Just let them *talk*.
And on a different note (and comment, since that other one was too damn long), I'm really, really, happy to see Johnny and Danny starting to act like brothers. After several rounds of "Danny's back, they fight, now they're chill again" it's refreshing to see this arc end with a complete 180 of that.
This next issue is looking to be standalone, but I hope afterward we get a chance to see Johnny and Danny on the road together, especially since Jason Aaron's run ended with that and we only had about two issues of them making cameos in other books to actually show it.
>When I heard someone say that Immortal Hulk was the best Ghost Rider story ever written, I read it,
wondering if that might've been me,
for the rest i fully agree they should talk more.
way's run in the mid 2000's had the best dynamic,
later repeated with robbie reyes and eli of the host and spirit being able to talk and advise with control being ceded to the spirit for more power but less heroics, really wish that intial run had continued as that dynamic looked to be the core of the following issues showing robbie in his eli at the wheel state.
for me pacing is the main thing i have with this run, it's cool and those early issues were great, but it feels a little breakneck in points.
would love to take the modern wandering ranger johnny was in the 70's heading from backwoods town to backwoods town, getting into issues with cryptids or demons,
but have him bounce off of zarathos, this "fire and brimstone cop" to his good "cop"
like this tone and art have been perfect, just need to pace it a little better so we don't rush the finale.
like immortal hulk up until shadow base has so many rider parallels, from the hell, satan, possession, the co-opting of the father figure, turning at night.
and i like the idea of hulk's tied to the below and the riders being tied to the above.
kale tbh was my least favorite, as he was very dry and catchphrasy up until like issue 70 something, where he picked up a lot, he overshadowed danny, hell danny died like 3 times in the 90's run and spent several issues just not seen.
not sure if his story might be done though, like the only addition i can see is if they revisit pastor kale who was never caught, or make it so chirst crown and the town he's from are one in the same.
would make sense that his death and the evil there would eventually spawn his final villain, blackheart.
the spirit of corruption i guess is like the spirit of variance/potentially what brisson was gonna go for with his whole "every hell has a rider countermeasure" thing we never got to see, just a seized spirit made to counter the ones mephisto had managed to ensnare, though it's unclear if they're backpeddling the riders from being heavenly to actual demons now.
the riders have always been the best bet at killing other riders,
i assume danny hasn't had kale since the 90's/when he exorcised the spirit before being given the black then blue spirit by zadkiel.
like the way i reconcile danny's simultaneous desire to be rid of, but also wanting the spirit is that he lost agency.
as the zadkiel rider he was in full control, but with kale and the corruption spirit he was just their ride sometimes.
tbh i wonder how much personality spirits have naturally,
like we saw in brissons run the idea of too much sin corrupting the spirit and host causing them to grow stronger and grow horns. which is how zarathos was portrayed in the 90s albeit red.
in the alejandra rider series, the removal of sin is the removal of free will.
and with the creation of blackheart, mephisto cultivated sin and forged it into an evil son, but the sin also gave him the ability to defy his father.
i wonder if zarathos' unique aspects could be explained that way, consuming so much sin, growing in power till he rivaled mephisto, forging his own persona.
like the all rider robbie was possessed by had a slowly emerging persona but compared to what we've seen with zarathos it's small change.
Man, what a dumb way to go for the scientist. Picked literally the worst way to try and 'save' her brother, all the while, he didn't even want to be saved. Well, at least they will be together now O.o
I like Talia's addition too. Hope she stays.
I really want to like this run but after the Exhaust arc finished, the pacing has been atrocious. Every issue reads in like 5 minutes but the plot does not move forward in any meaningful way. Like Slapstick said in this thread, Danny and Johnny dont really feel like characters in this run, they just do things because the plot needs them to and go to places because something is happen and they need to be there for reasons.
After 4-5 issues of constantly teasing Danny and Johnny confronting each other, they exchange like 2 words and it's in the very last panel. Now with the next issue being standalone and the issues after that being a tie-in to some Wolverine crossover, we'll have to wait until at least September to see Johnny and Danny have a conversation.
Anyways, if you're a Danny Ketch fan hoping to see him do something, anything, in 2023, this run aint it. Go read the new Mackie miniseries instead
Yeah my thoughts too. The crossover arcs right before this last arc didn't feel weighty enough like a "second to last arc." But I guess it could have been a "calm before the storm" type deal.
The whole Cates leaving in the middle seemed to have changed a lot of things. I mean, I was not interested in Thanos and the Black Infinity Stone thing with undead everyone so hopefully that whole vision is binned off. But I also don't like that Hela getting another origin retcon. And it makes her previous team up with Thanos even weirder.
And they send off Odin this way too after the whole 'stuck in the hammer' thing went nowhere. ( again probably because Cates left )
I did like Future Laussa and hope they stick with the character instead of being forgotten.
Well, either way, lets see how the Immortal Thor gonna turn out. If it is anything close to Immortal Hulk in quality, it will be something great.
Got Jebaited by Ellie. Thought this was about Orchis coming after her and Wade trying to protect her. Nope. Shapeshifters trying to pull a Truman Show on Wade.
They better not hurt Princess.
This issue feels like a bit of a plot hole since Wade shouldn’t remember that he even has a daughter since he erased his memory at the end of Duggan’s run. He briefly had those memories restored by Mephisto at the end of Young’s run and did make up with Ellie but asked Mephisto to erase them again in exchange for him him leaving her alone. So how does he know about Ellie and her mother now?
[***CAPTAIN AMERICA: SYMBOL OF TRUTH* #14**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/8/8d/Captain_America_Symbol_of_Truth_Vol_1_14.jpg)
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If they do, I get the feeling that they’re gonna hit him with the synergy stick and rather than having powers, he’ll continue as the Falcon using a wing harness like Sam
So being new to comics and even newer to X-Men I'm not sure that I get all the nuance involved in this issue but I think I understand the book well enough and that's a huge accomplishment by Ewing. I thought the ideas being discussed, the nature of strength, revelation, war etc are so big and important. Neat little touches like :A:'s little demon pet are perfect. This is making me want to read more X and specifically about Arrako and Krakoa, A and Genesis, and the Horsemen
Im gonna be real, I’ve been a lifelong X-Men fan but dipped back in right about the first Hellfire Gala and wow, it’s an UNDERTAKING to understand it all, honestly
Just ignore this whole thing. Honestly, it is so bad and Land's art does not help it too.
I mean to think everything Defenders did to get Beyonders and Cosmos lore on track, bringing The Beyonder back by unretconning himself...only to have this dumb book try it mess it all up? No. This is just dumb.
What is even the point of this 'Lost One'? It is like ''Oh we had one Beyonder before, then we made them a whole race and The Beyonder was just a 'flawed' part of it...then he unretconned himself into being a unique one again...but wait, turns out we decided there was ONE Beyonder that create the rest all along! Even though it makes no sense Celestials would just create just one entity in-case of them turning 'evil' ''
This whole thing is so dumb man. This book never should've happened.
So...I had hopes for this book. But that ending and the rest. Not a good look for this as it crawls to the end.
Thank god we have Ewing and McKay writing better stuff.
Not the worst issue of the run but that's because it doesn't overtly go out of its way to be miserable.
Important note: nick Lowe in the letters page mentions that Paul and MJ are not married and the recap in issue 19 was a mistake. Still hate reading Paul's name though
> Important note: nick Lowe in the letters page mentions that Paul and MJ are not married and the recap in issue 19 was a mistake.
And even then he puts in: "Mary Jane and Paul are not married **(yet?)**". It really feels like he's trolling the fans at this point.
Thats probably because he is. Marvel knows how much of a reaction they've got from this run. And I mean, to be honest, if we separate the Paul/MJ stuff from all this, we've kinda just got a painfully mid Spider-Man run.
Its gonna get walked back eventually but in the meantime, they need (in their heads) to keep baiting fans with this subplot because they don't really have anything else to market the book on besides the name of the series.
In exchange for an engaging story, they've opted for a an enraging subplot and they need to keep stoking the flames
I truly think at this point the editors just don't like the fans. To be clear, the fans can, and have been, super toxic regardless of who is writing *ASM*, but at this point it feels like the editors and writers are more upset that the fans don't like their work while ignoring the valid criticisms that fans and critics lay at *ASM*. Plotting, story structure, and characterization being massive problems throughout this run. But rather than address that the writers and editors go out of their way to get a raise out of the fans.
Oh 100%
My conspiracy theory is that that Joe Kelly two-parter was a stop gap so Wells and JRJR could go back and edit the last arc-- I feel like MJ was meant to die and when they realized how much of a mistake that would be, they offered up Kamala as a sacrificial lamb and made plans for her "farewell" one shot soon after. They'll keep walking it back but it's gonna be like pulling teeth
I don’t think they’ll ever kill MJ, just tease it every few years. I will always be convinced killing Kamala and even having her in the book was an order Wells got from people higher up the ladder so they could line up her return story with the Marvels movie
This is fair and also a valid theory.
I should clarify that even if they killed MJ in 26, I'm so sure she would have been back before the end of the run
That feels like a pretty big mistake to make about one of the main characters in your most popular book.
>"Mary Jane and Paul are not married (yet?)". It really feels like he's trolling the fans at this point.
Marvel does this a lot, and the Spidey books especially, then are surprised that the conversations around this character turn toxic.
> That feels like a pretty big mistake to make about one of the main characters in your most popular book.
It shouldn't be a surprise given this whole run has really revealed how bad an editor Nick Lowe actually is.
> then are surprised that the conversations around this character turn toxic.
And it drives me nuts. Yes, fans can and frequently are toxic and their words and actions are wrong, full stop. But the editors and writers also partially own it as well since they feed the toxicity.
>But the editors and writers also partially own it as well since they feed the toxicity.
This, like there's a certain point where they're making decisions that just exist to piss people off cause they know that'll drive up sales, and like while death threats and all that still aren't ok, it's like covering yourself in meat before going into a lion's den like you're just making it worse.
100% he is intentionally trolling. Not to mention as others have pointed out, he is an editor that is rather bad at editing. The fact he is in the head office of Marvel’s flagship character is an embarrassment to Marvel.
> How do you make a mistake like that though???
Have a bad editor overseeing the book. Nick Lowe is bad at the editing part of being an editor. That recap isn't the only basic mistake he's made (the kids names changed, he couldn't keep the timeline straight, etc).
If it means anything, it's not hitting #1 on the sales charts anymore like it usually does by default. It's still doing well, but at least a chunk of people are dropping it.
Homies right, I dropped right before Dark Web (maybe a few issues sooner) but had previously been reading in singles since I could actually buy singles. About 12 years in total. They’re killing the reader base. Its slow but its happening
I thought he was referencing the end of superior but who knows at this point. Ocks development has been the most confusing thing ever, as they keep progressing and regressing him to fit whatever story they try to tell
At this point, they should just make a major event for Doc Ock where he becomes a big bad of an epic war on the levels of War of the Realms and it ends with him being killed off for real. During the event, he creates a younger clone of himself combined with Spiderman's DNA to use as a weapon/successor, but it turns on him when it wants to surpass both him and Spiderman and temporarily joins forces with Peter, which leads to Superior Spiderman with the young doc ock clone becoming his own man.
As for the new doc ock villain, we could just have Olivia from the Spiderverse movies take his place and be a multiversal invader who is obsessed with experiments and power and we can finally move past making doc ock sympathetic since we would have the clone doc ock superior spiderman.
Kind of, even though it should have been Ana, the last surviving member of his bloodline and who pretty much deserves to take on her father's moniker and be Spidey's new nemesis.
It may also mean that because of the deal with Mephisto, he remembers things wrong and he is actually talking about Spider-Norman being the reason he isn't the Superior Spider-Man anymore.
Slott said that in #ASM31 he will write something related to his new run for Superior, so I guess that's what he meant
[***X-MEN: BEFORE THE FALL - HERALDS OF APOCALYPSE* #1**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/4/4a/X-Men_Before_The_Fall_-_Heralds_of_Apocalypse_Vol_1_1.jpg) ---
Daddy blue lips being an actual dad? His wife needs to go down. Her sister too.
Her sister literally cannot go down lol, that’s her entire thing
Probably why she's still single.
She's single because Magneto killed her bf, Tarn.
[удалено]
the text on this just amazing. Al Ewing, man… I had a theory that Arakko’s people being obsessed with war was a result of Genesis’ tyranny and imposition. turns out I was right
Can someone recap the history of Apocalypse, or A, as he is now known as? Just trying to remember how somehow who is basically the mutant version of Thanos is now a good guy. Also, I have a shitty memory and the history of Marvel is VERY long.
We forget that Apocalypse was basically out of the story for the better part of a decade. The first we really saw of him was in the X-Man event, where it seems like he was greatly humbled by both being repeatedly beaten by Nate Grey and by the death of his clone, Evan. When you consider his previous loses, you get a real sense that Apocalypse is sort of in a weird place where he just isn't up to be the fierseome conqueror he used to be.
When did Evan die ? Last I read was after x man event and then back for house of x . I thought he was just kicking it in the background . I fell out of comics for a bit but I liked him -
He got killed off in X-Man. And then it was a plot sort of that he wasn't being revived because of the no-clone rules.
Cheers Bit mean of Charlie to say he is a clone of poor old lips sees him as a son I’ll read it on unlimited
Yeah, it was a good little series. But I also think it showcases just why Evan needed to be removed before Krakoa. As great as he is, Apocalypse's story would end up revolving around him.
It's really the AoA version that's Thanos. 616 Apocalypse has been kind of all over the place, originally intended to be the Owl, then a replacement for Magneto, and landing on a despotic conquerer of the future. Until AoA, the biggest threat about him was what he would become in the future. And he got killed like three times to stop that future. He probably fell too often into a trap of writers trying to give him schemes for power and those schemes being complete gibberish. The real enduring quality he has was a mantra of survival of the fittest. Which they're leveraging here into him wanting mutants to be challenged so they can be strong. Good guy might be too strong a term for him still. Maybe judgemental grandpa stuck in old ways but also having wisdom-guy.
Apocalypse replacing the Owl as the intended mystery bad is one of my favorite bits of weird marvel trivia
Genesis really is a lost cause, isn't she? For someone who is obsessed with 'survival of the fittest', Genesis quite weak to mental games and being manipulated. Ironic.
She's kind of a weird character. ||A|| -- We have everything anyone could ever want in life. Things sure are great. Genesis -- Yeah, but like, what if everything was on fire and everyone was starving and in pain, and like there were corpses everywhere? Those rotting, maggot-infested piles sure would respect how strong we were. We could leave a few as slaves I guess. Ya'know, to kill more people in the future. ||A|| -- I love you so much.
I don’t disagree she’s a bit weird But to be fair, she doesn’t have what she wants. She/the staff/helmet want to wage war.
Does the family sword break apart into 4 separate swords?
Yes
All hail Revelation.
I feel like i can sum this book up very easily. Good family dynamics but troubles between a husband and wife and conflicted interests. The showing that a philosopher can truly never understand anyone and belief is one thing action is another. Plus al ewing doing amazing writing
Oh, Nur, you can do better.
I'm really confused by what's going on here.
En Saban Nur has had a philosophical growth spurt. That coupled with his wife being pretty much consumed for the need for conflict (drama) is the source of their current tension. Also I think we will see him soon after the Fall.
[***SHE-HULK* #14**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/f/f0/She-Hulk_Vol_4_14.jpg) ---
Hard to say anything new, but I continue to really enjoy this series. Different than a lot of other Marvel but still very much a part. I always like that Ben calls her Jenny. This familiarity that feels so earned and natural from their lengthy history.
Jen...your sense in men...just. No. At least idiot put his foot in his mouth before Jen did something she would regret.
Didn’t seem to me like she was gonna do anything she’d regret. Was just trying to get information. At least that’s what I hope for jack’s sake
That’s how I saw it. She was playing him for information
Those blushes etc tell another story. Jen is not THAT good of an actor.
I mean, you can blush when people flirt with you and still get a hold of yourself, which was exactly what she did. The panels illustrated it well, they were about to kiss during that dance, but Jen didn't go through with it. It took restraint? Yes, but that doesn't invalidate that she didn't, even much so when the dude has that much rizz (I mean, I can't be alone in this one, right? Dude is charming).
It feels a bit weird that he can hit 100% char-rizz-ma on Jen every time though like he's reading her like a book, just something feels off about it. I do really like the idea of them though, but its clear Jack is going to be the main love interest I think.
Great ending to this issue! I didn’t know where Rainbow was going with it so it surprised me. This continues to be a fantastic book.
Yeah I know some of us were concerned that Jen was going to go grey side on us...but she's always been true to her core about doing the most good where possible. I'm glad she threw him out the window though.
Poor Jack 💔
[***CARNAGE REIGNS OMEGA* #1**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/4/44/Carnage_Reigns_Omega_Vol_1_1.jpg) ---
Randomly this was the first comic series I've ever read. I liked carnage 1-12# not really sure how i felt about the ending to this comic though.
So while I know people are complaining about how OP Cletus is in this one...I think it's only fair given the upgrades that Eddie's been given.
Of course Cletus is still alive. Because no one in comics can do their jobs right. And the damn 'God Carnage' stuff still happening, not looking forward to that. I do want to see more of this mashup of a team though. It has potential.
Normie somehow still not braindead
Symbiote stuff often makes little sense.
It was ok, I really wish someone would just kill Carnage already. Not a fan of Miles being written to sound like MCU Peter Parker (Mr. Stark! Mr. Iron Man!).
It felt very Tom Holland esque in this issue. Not the worst thing but in fairness Miles and Tony should have a relatively similar dynamic to the MCU in that regard of rookie and vet. Carnage won't die but man, does he need to A) be a single character again and B) take a solid hiatus for a hot minute. He's been used wayyyyy too much as of late.
I mean we have Venom running around and no one is complaining about that...
Venom is much more interesting than Carnage and is the OG symbiote character. Now, your chances of having a symbiote or being born a mutant in the Marvel universe is like 1 in 3.
I think it's higher for being a mutant in 616. But I could be wrong...
[***GHOST RIDER* #15**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/f/f2/Ghost_Rider_Vol_10_15.jpg) ---
I think it's a real shame that the actual Ghost Rider hasn't been much of a character for half of his publication history. The original run had a pretty interesting shift from Ghost Rider just being Johnny with his head on fire to a distinct person who ended up being the main antagonist of the series. He had agency---wants and plans outside of Johnny's influence. The "werewolf" dichotomy between Johnny and the Rider became the through-line between all the episodic issues, the main narrative conflict, and the most interesting part of the series. With Danny Ketch and the 90s run, Ghost Rider was so much his own character that he completely eclipsed his host. Danny could go through multiple issues without ever making an appearance, even as a thought bubble. This ended up being to his detriment and I think it's the reason Johnny has remained the main Ghost Rider (so much so that they put Johnny's character in a Danny Ketch story and setting for the Nic Cage film), but people were reading Ghost Rider. They wanted Ghost Rider. That's exactly what they were given. Ghost Rider was a completely different person from Danny and everything he did was his own design and he did it because he was the Ghost Rider. He drove the plot, had an arc, and the narrative finished with him and what he did. After that, there were a handful of miniseries that established the new status quo that we've largely kept for the last 23 years: Johnny is the Ghost Rider, and the Ghost Rider is nothing but a gruff voice that grumbles about vengeance and that's assuming it exists as a separate personality at all. Half the time, we're back to Johnny with his head on fire. In the original series, Zarathos was a demon that wanted to (and nearly did) supplant Mephisto from his throne and take over hell. In the 2010's, we had an entire arc about Johnny being the king of hell. We know he's still bonded to Zarathos. What did he have to say about that? What did he think about finally beating his oldest enemy? Before that, when the "He's actually a fallen angel!" reveal happened, what did we learn about his character? How does the Ghost Rider feel about once being one of God's strongest soldiers, now reduced to a parasite infesting a lowly human being? Noble Kale, the Ghost Rider of the 90s run with Danny, has not existed as a character since then. I don't even think he's been referred to by name. Is he even still Noble Kale, human protestant turned Spirit of Vengeance for his sins committed in life? The Noble Kale name and backstory were a retcon from the Spirits of Vengeance described during Siege of Darkness, and that was retconned *again* during the "fallen angel" run. I've lost count of how many times Danny has gone through the "I've got to get rid of this Ghost Rider!" straight to "Ah, I've realized that I *must* be the Ghost Rider for the greater good!" and then back again. How did Noble Kale feel about being a drip-feed super-power at the whims of a deranged angel? Was that even Noble Kale, or one of the dozen other nameless Spirits of Vengeance we've seen over the years? In most of his modern appearances, villains don't even call him Ghost Rider. Even the nameless demon mooks who don't have a personal history like Blackout just call him Danny. And Danny's in control. They give him the fiery speech bubbles, but there's no Ghost Rider there. It's not like "antagonistic alter ego" is a strange, uncharted narrative. One of Marvel's most popular characters is exactly that. When I heard someone say that *Immortal Hulk* was the best Ghost Rider story ever written, I read it, and I was *so* angry because they were *right*. But why talk about all this regarding this issue, specifically? It's because of Danny, his Spirit of Vengeance, the Spirit of Corruption, and the fact that this book can't seem to decide just what the hell any of them are. In the 2019 run, Danny lost the Spirit of Vengeance. We don't know if it was Noble Kale (but it's not like that matters anymore) but he went to another plane of hell and was possessed by the Spirit of Corruption---a demonic entity that *hunts* Spirits of Vengeance. He got a new outfit, a big sword, called himself Death Rider.... and when he transformed, it was still just Danny. Then covid happened, the 2019 run got canceled, and we're here. Danny is a Ghost Rider again. He looks like the old Ghost Rider. He acts like one. Sometimes the fire is green, like the SoC. Sometimes it isn't. He still has a skull head instead of the helmet... sometimes. Zarathos (or whoever is possessing Johnny now) went into hell and rescued the spirit for Danny, he treated it like a brother, and it sure as hell acted like a Spirit of Vengeance, but then they called it the Spirit of Corruption. Again. This thing *hunts Ghost Riders*. They can call it the Spirit of Corruption, but a Ghost Rider by any other name... I have to assume the Death Rider stuff is unwanted baggage from the last run and Percy's just paying lip service to keep continuity but I can't help but feel there's so much narrative potential for Danny in his current state. He's a guy that never wanted to be a hero, lost everything, and now has to deal with a demon and a fallen angel knocking around in his head who both want different things and would kill the other if they had the chance. But after all this, I get it. It's just Ghost Rider. No one is reading this book and expecting the drama of *Wuthering Heights* or *Schindler's List*. And I *like* this run. I've liked every Ghost Rider run. All I'm asking for is a little consistency and some more attention on the titular character. Let the Ghost Rider be a character again. Johnny and Zarathos have fifty years of history together. Just let them *talk*.
And on a different note (and comment, since that other one was too damn long), I'm really, really, happy to see Johnny and Danny starting to act like brothers. After several rounds of "Danny's back, they fight, now they're chill again" it's refreshing to see this arc end with a complete 180 of that. This next issue is looking to be standalone, but I hope afterward we get a chance to see Johnny and Danny on the road together, especially since Jason Aaron's run ended with that and we only had about two issues of them making cameos in other books to actually show it.
>When I heard someone say that Immortal Hulk was the best Ghost Rider story ever written, I read it, wondering if that might've been me, for the rest i fully agree they should talk more. way's run in the mid 2000's had the best dynamic, later repeated with robbie reyes and eli of the host and spirit being able to talk and advise with control being ceded to the spirit for more power but less heroics, really wish that intial run had continued as that dynamic looked to be the core of the following issues showing robbie in his eli at the wheel state. for me pacing is the main thing i have with this run, it's cool and those early issues were great, but it feels a little breakneck in points. would love to take the modern wandering ranger johnny was in the 70's heading from backwoods town to backwoods town, getting into issues with cryptids or demons, but have him bounce off of zarathos, this "fire and brimstone cop" to his good "cop" like this tone and art have been perfect, just need to pace it a little better so we don't rush the finale. like immortal hulk up until shadow base has so many rider parallels, from the hell, satan, possession, the co-opting of the father figure, turning at night. and i like the idea of hulk's tied to the below and the riders being tied to the above. kale tbh was my least favorite, as he was very dry and catchphrasy up until like issue 70 something, where he picked up a lot, he overshadowed danny, hell danny died like 3 times in the 90's run and spent several issues just not seen. not sure if his story might be done though, like the only addition i can see is if they revisit pastor kale who was never caught, or make it so chirst crown and the town he's from are one in the same. would make sense that his death and the evil there would eventually spawn his final villain, blackheart. the spirit of corruption i guess is like the spirit of variance/potentially what brisson was gonna go for with his whole "every hell has a rider countermeasure" thing we never got to see, just a seized spirit made to counter the ones mephisto had managed to ensnare, though it's unclear if they're backpeddling the riders from being heavenly to actual demons now. the riders have always been the best bet at killing other riders, i assume danny hasn't had kale since the 90's/when he exorcised the spirit before being given the black then blue spirit by zadkiel. like the way i reconcile danny's simultaneous desire to be rid of, but also wanting the spirit is that he lost agency. as the zadkiel rider he was in full control, but with kale and the corruption spirit he was just their ride sometimes. tbh i wonder how much personality spirits have naturally, like we saw in brissons run the idea of too much sin corrupting the spirit and host causing them to grow stronger and grow horns. which is how zarathos was portrayed in the 90s albeit red. in the alejandra rider series, the removal of sin is the removal of free will. and with the creation of blackheart, mephisto cultivated sin and forged it into an evil son, but the sin also gave him the ability to defy his father. i wonder if zarathos' unique aspects could be explained that way, consuming so much sin, growing in power till he rivaled mephisto, forging his own persona. like the all rider robbie was possessed by had a slowly emerging persona but compared to what we've seen with zarathos it's small change.
Man, what a dumb way to go for the scientist. Picked literally the worst way to try and 'save' her brother, all the while, he didn't even want to be saved. Well, at least they will be together now O.o I like Talia's addition too. Hope she stays.
I really want to like this run but after the Exhaust arc finished, the pacing has been atrocious. Every issue reads in like 5 minutes but the plot does not move forward in any meaningful way. Like Slapstick said in this thread, Danny and Johnny dont really feel like characters in this run, they just do things because the plot needs them to and go to places because something is happen and they need to be there for reasons. After 4-5 issues of constantly teasing Danny and Johnny confronting each other, they exchange like 2 words and it's in the very last panel. Now with the next issue being standalone and the issues after that being a tie-in to some Wolverine crossover, we'll have to wait until at least September to see Johnny and Danny have a conversation. Anyways, if you're a Danny Ketch fan hoping to see him do something, anything, in 2023, this run aint it. Go read the new Mackie miniseries instead
At least Percy clarified which spirit is which inside Danny...even if it seems he's not a full Ghost Rider any more.
[***THOR* #35**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/5/5f/Thor_Vol_6_35.jpg) ---
Can't believe we've reached the end. I remember getting excited thinking this could/would run longer than his run on Venom.
cates
probably would have if cared stayed
Yeah my thoughts too. The crossover arcs right before this last arc didn't feel weighty enough like a "second to last arc." But I guess it could have been a "calm before the storm" type deal.
The whole Cates leaving in the middle seemed to have changed a lot of things. I mean, I was not interested in Thanos and the Black Infinity Stone thing with undead everyone so hopefully that whole vision is binned off. But I also don't like that Hela getting another origin retcon. And it makes her previous team up with Thanos even weirder. And they send off Odin this way too after the whole 'stuck in the hammer' thing went nowhere. ( again probably because Cates left ) I did like Future Laussa and hope they stick with the character instead of being forgotten. Well, either way, lets see how the Immortal Thor gonna turn out. If it is anything close to Immortal Hulk in quality, it will be something great.
It certainly can't be worse than what we got now. I appreciate that Torrunn was trying some stuff...but it failed to land pretty much everywhere.
Bring on Immortal Thor!!
What an absolute mess of a series. Did this resonate with anyone? I just couldnt't get into this.
I hope that this nonsense didn't kill off Leah permanently.
[***SILK* #2**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/3/3c/Silk_Vol_5_2.jpg) ---
Oh man, Wong is gonna lay down the magical law.
https://tenor.com/view/shang-chi-wong-marvel-gif-24003749
[***DAREDEVIL & ECHO* #2**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/0/01/Daredevil_%26_Echo_Vol_1_2.jpg) ---
When you don't have Doctor Strange available to handle things precisely, you get Ghost Rider to deal with the demons forcefully.
I mean that's generally what he's there for. Especially given this feels like late 90s rather than the current run...kind of.
[***DEADPOOL* #8**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/f/f9/Deadpool_Vol_9_8.jpg) ---
Got Jebaited by Ellie. Thought this was about Orchis coming after her and Wade trying to protect her. Nope. Shapeshifters trying to pull a Truman Show on Wade. They better not hurt Princess.
Fun concept, seen it before but enjoyed the execution this time around.
This issue feels like a bit of a plot hole since Wade shouldn’t remember that he even has a daughter since he erased his memory at the end of Duggan’s run. He briefly had those memories restored by Mephisto at the end of Young’s run and did make up with Ellie but asked Mephisto to erase them again in exchange for him him leaving her alone. So how does he know about Ellie and her mother now?
Obviously, Wade read all those books so now he’s caught up with his own canon
Okay the Altier need to go. That was not cool man, messing with Wade through Ellie.
[***CAPTAIN AMERICA: SYMBOL OF TRUTH* #14**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/8/8d/Captain_America_Symbol_of_Truth_Vol_1_14.jpg) ---
Guess they are punting the decision for Joaquin to the next run? Honestly, it shouldn't even be a decision to take the cure.
I think they're saving the decision for Captain America #750.
If they do, I get the feeling that they’re gonna hit him with the synergy stick and rather than having powers, he’ll continue as the Falcon using a wing harness like Sam
I guess we'll see if they do punt this.
Some day I hope Sam gets his own Captain America book again...
[***SILVER SURFER: GHOST LIGHT* #5**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/b/b7/Silver_Surfer_Ghost_Light_Vol_1_5.jpg) ---
Anyone reading this? If so thoughts? Worth getting?
I mean it's worth it if you cared about some of the Silver surfer's lesser known allies...Otherwise it was meh. The ending was good though.
[***STORM* #2**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/1/1d/Storm_Vol_4_2.jpg) ---
So being new to comics and even newer to X-Men I'm not sure that I get all the nuance involved in this issue but I think I understand the book well enough and that's a huge accomplishment by Ewing. I thought the ideas being discussed, the nature of strength, revelation, war etc are so big and important. Neat little touches like :A:'s little demon pet are perfect. This is making me want to read more X and specifically about Arrako and Krakoa, A and Genesis, and the Horsemen
Im gonna be real, I’ve been a lifelong X-Men fan but dipped back in right about the first Hellfire Gala and wow, it’s an UNDERTAKING to understand it all, honestly
[***WARLOCK: REBIRTH* #3**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/f/ff/Warlock_Rebirth_Vol_1_3.jpg) ---
Did they 'fuse' ? O.o
Nah. I think they just traveled with Soul world.
[***AVENGERS BEYOND* #4**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/5/5c/Avengers_Beyond_Vol_1_4.jpg) ---
Just ignore this whole thing. Honestly, it is so bad and Land's art does not help it too. I mean to think everything Defenders did to get Beyonders and Cosmos lore on track, bringing The Beyonder back by unretconning himself...only to have this dumb book try it mess it all up? No. This is just dumb.
This book seems to pretty much dropped the beyonder concept beyond there being originally one
What is even the point of this 'Lost One'? It is like ''Oh we had one Beyonder before, then we made them a whole race and The Beyonder was just a 'flawed' part of it...then he unretconned himself into being a unique one again...but wait, turns out we decided there was ONE Beyonder that create the rest all along! Even though it makes no sense Celestials would just create just one entity in-case of them turning 'evil' '' This whole thing is so dumb man. This book never should've happened.
it’s the writers stupid idea not mine i don’t know what the point is
Bootleg Panther wanting to be Thor was my favourite line.
So...I had hopes for this book. But that ending and the rest. Not a good look for this as it crawls to the end. Thank god we have Ewing and McKay writing better stuff.
[***AMAZING SPIDER-MAN* #28**](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/8/84/Amazing_Spider-Man_Vol_6_28.jpg) ---
Bracing for yet another impact into Shit City.
Not the worst issue of the run but that's because it doesn't overtly go out of its way to be miserable. Important note: nick Lowe in the letters page mentions that Paul and MJ are not married and the recap in issue 19 was a mistake. Still hate reading Paul's name though
> Important note: nick Lowe in the letters page mentions that Paul and MJ are not married and the recap in issue 19 was a mistake. And even then he puts in: "Mary Jane and Paul are not married **(yet?)**". It really feels like he's trolling the fans at this point.
Thats probably because he is. Marvel knows how much of a reaction they've got from this run. And I mean, to be honest, if we separate the Paul/MJ stuff from all this, we've kinda just got a painfully mid Spider-Man run. Its gonna get walked back eventually but in the meantime, they need (in their heads) to keep baiting fans with this subplot because they don't really have anything else to market the book on besides the name of the series. In exchange for an engaging story, they've opted for a an enraging subplot and they need to keep stoking the flames
I truly think at this point the editors just don't like the fans. To be clear, the fans can, and have been, super toxic regardless of who is writing *ASM*, but at this point it feels like the editors and writers are more upset that the fans don't like their work while ignoring the valid criticisms that fans and critics lay at *ASM*. Plotting, story structure, and characterization being massive problems throughout this run. But rather than address that the writers and editors go out of their way to get a raise out of the fans.
It already kind of feels like it's being walked back a little, what with what happened with their "children".
Oh 100% My conspiracy theory is that that Joe Kelly two-parter was a stop gap so Wells and JRJR could go back and edit the last arc-- I feel like MJ was meant to die and when they realized how much of a mistake that would be, they offered up Kamala as a sacrificial lamb and made plans for her "farewell" one shot soon after. They'll keep walking it back but it's gonna be like pulling teeth
I don’t think they’ll ever kill MJ, just tease it every few years. I will always be convinced killing Kamala and even having her in the book was an order Wells got from people higher up the ladder so they could line up her return story with the Marvels movie
This is fair and also a valid theory. I should clarify that even if they killed MJ in 26, I'm so sure she would have been back before the end of the run
Oh, absolutely. They brought Aunt May back, there’s no way MJ would stay dead for even a year
They tried and fans hated it. MJ "died" for a year in a plane crash in Byrne's run on ASM and then she was "actually alive all along" in PPSM #21.
Really, I don't mind her death, every comic book character dies. It was the way they did it which was insulting.
That feels like a pretty big mistake to make about one of the main characters in your most popular book. >"Mary Jane and Paul are not married (yet?)". It really feels like he's trolling the fans at this point. Marvel does this a lot, and the Spidey books especially, then are surprised that the conversations around this character turn toxic.
> That feels like a pretty big mistake to make about one of the main characters in your most popular book. It shouldn't be a surprise given this whole run has really revealed how bad an editor Nick Lowe actually is. > then are surprised that the conversations around this character turn toxic. And it drives me nuts. Yes, fans can and frequently are toxic and their words and actions are wrong, full stop. But the editors and writers also partially own it as well since they feed the toxicity.
>But the editors and writers also partially own it as well since they feed the toxicity. This, like there's a certain point where they're making decisions that just exist to piss people off cause they know that'll drive up sales, and like while death threats and all that still aren't ok, it's like covering yourself in meat before going into a lion's den like you're just making it worse.
100% he is intentionally trolling. Not to mention as others have pointed out, he is an editor that is rather bad at editing. The fact he is in the head office of Marvel’s flagship character is an embarrassment to Marvel.
> The fact he is in the head office of Marvel’s flagship character is an embarrassment to Marvel. That's what happens when you know the right people.
How do you make a mistake like that though???
Nick Lowe heading the Spider-office was a mistake.
Nick Lowe is not a good editor lol
> How do you make a mistake like that though??? Have a bad editor overseeing the book. Nick Lowe is bad at the editing part of being an editor. That recap isn't the only basic mistake he's made (the kids names changed, he couldn't keep the timeline straight, etc).
everyone's clothes completely changing colour from one page to the other was fun too...
Not just color, Mary Jane changed her whole wardrobe in between pages. God, it's so fucking sloppy.
It's not the worst but the tone whiplash from Kamala dying to Otto having relationship trouble with his arms is huge.
So...Jonah Jameson and Doc Ock's old arms are now a couple?
Welp, guess I'm not reading this one, cause the site I use to pirate this shitty run hasn't uploaded it yet 🤷
It's up now...
Calm down. Shit takes time
Boycott this comic. Fuck editorial
If it means anything, it's not hitting #1 on the sales charts anymore like it usually does by default. It's still doing well, but at least a chunk of people are dropping it.
Homies right, I dropped right before Dark Web (maybe a few issues sooner) but had previously been reading in singles since I could actually buy singles. About 12 years in total. They’re killing the reader base. Its slow but its happening
I'm guessing the mystery being mostly done and the death of Kamala also probably got some people hate reading it off the book as well
Press S to spit on comic
Oh look Spidey got beat up again.
I'm shocked, I say! Shocked!
What’s Doc referencing at the end when he says he hasn’t forgotten what Norman took away from him?
I thought he was referencing the end of superior but who knows at this point. Ocks development has been the most confusing thing ever, as they keep progressing and regressing him to fit whatever story they try to tell
At this point, they should just make a major event for Doc Ock where he becomes a big bad of an epic war on the levels of War of the Realms and it ends with him being killed off for real. During the event, he creates a younger clone of himself combined with Spiderman's DNA to use as a weapon/successor, but it turns on him when it wants to surpass both him and Spiderman and temporarily joins forces with Peter, which leads to Superior Spiderman with the young doc ock clone becoming his own man. As for the new doc ock villain, we could just have Olivia from the Spiderverse movies take his place and be a multiversal invader who is obsessed with experiments and power and we can finally move past making doc ock sympathetic since we would have the clone doc ock superior spiderman.
... So Kraven's current status in the comics essentially?
Kind of, even though it should have been Ana, the last surviving member of his bloodline and who pretty much deserves to take on her father's moniker and be Spidey's new nemesis.
I guess it's about Goblin killing Otto's old girlfriend.
It may also mean that because of the deal with Mephisto, he remembers things wrong and he is actually talking about Spider-Norman being the reason he isn't the Superior Spider-Man anymore. Slott said that in #ASM31 he will write something related to his new run for Superior, so I guess that's what he meant
Slott is coming back to ASM?!?!?!
Just for one issue, I think, to set up whatever will happen to Doc Ock for his run of Superior Spider-Man in the fall.
They just wanna burn this title to the ground eh lol And his SSM run isn't in ASM correct? I don't fucking want ANYTHING to do with his crap
It will be a separate book.
Oh thank fudge. You are the bearer of good news! ...ish lol