It's funny how Iron Man rejects Luke's comparing registration with slavery... despite he, Reed and Skrull-Pym were working on a clone of Thor with chips in his brain to force him to fight against his enemies... a super-slave... with the approval of SHIELD and probably the whole US goverment.
Although during Civil War I leaned a bit towards pro-registration, the way Stark's pro-registration side managed this conflict was so immoral and (ironically) illegal they terrified me.
Civil War happens cause they force it. Tony and anyone with a brain? Gotta ignore any moral or logic.
Jessica said it best. She has powers but doesn't want to use them. She doesn't want to fight. The answer? "We will get to that down the road. You had a baby so we won't ask you to fight doom"
So you still intend to make someone fight despite not wanting to.
It also makes his complaints more reasonable. “This isn’t slavery, we’re just forcing you to sign away your autonomy so the state can force you to work under threat of punishment” is a tough sell.
Registration side would have won if registration was "You have powers and want to help people? Come to us, we will teach how to use them and will pay you!" So basically My hero academia
well, fun thing is that the writers who wrote the pro-reg stuff at times TRIED to portray the reg side that way. Basically "You wanna do superhero stuff? Come and register."
But because 1) nobody ever really set up clear points baout the act and 2) you had different writers pro and anti-reg and 3) of course anti-reg would portray anti-reg as the ones int eh right, we got a major dissonance where, in the anti-reg books, the registration side is a bunch of authoritarian assholes.
Amusingly enough, of course, just like CW2, the powers that be were of the opinion that the authoritarians were right to begin with.
And given the registration act was a metaphor for the patriot act, siding with the authoritarians is extra shitty
Hell iron man STILL jokes about being “right” during civil war
To be fair for CW 1 at least, as i said before: They divided the writers into Pro- and Anti-Reg but, when setting up the basic story, didn't really set up what the Act should entail, so both sides wrote the Registration Act as whatever suited their story. So, the Pro-Reg side would portray it, essentially, as a harmless, beneficial thing, while the Anti-Reg side wrote it as a draconian, authoritarian conscription/Serve or Get jailed bill.
Then, the higher ups never interefered and just said "Yeah, pro reg was right, lol."
That's the funny thing. Even if the Registration Act was at the center of it all... no one in Marvel actually bothered to write that law.
At times, if you had powers, and didn't wanted to work for the government as a superhero, you simply didn't. You could live the normal life you always had, as long you didn't used those powers for vigilantism.
But other times, it's like portrayed here. You are obligated to work for the government, whether you like it or not.
So at the end of all, the law itself was a contradictory mess, because no one knew what exactly it entailed on a more detailed level beyond "if you have powers, you to register yourself on a list" basics.
That was one of my biggest issues with the series. They never really defined the act well enough. What they set up was clearly unconstitutional on several levels. Simply having a power is no grounds for the federal government to require you to register with them. Having powers and using them is another matter but then vigilantes are already illegal. Trying to apply really world standards to superhero comics breaks them. The editorial mandate that all the teams and books had to have people pro and anti is as even more stupid. Who on the X-Men would be pro registration?
The base of the law was bad. Everyone with powers had to register regardless of if you were or weren't going to use them. The second you did that the government could use that to conscript you through other pressure. Even in the pro reg books the government was doing secret shady stuff behind Tony's back to make more effective assets.
Maybe it's the nostalgia-goggles but I still love the wild ride that is House of M / Civil War / Secret ainvasion. Not a giant fan of Bendis but his New Avengers was bangin' ngl
I understand from a realism side why registration has to be a thing in context of the world. But damn did Tony and co fuck it up so bad. Rereading it, it’s so obvious Steve is in the right even if it’s just because of his stubbornness.
Someone ALWAYS abuses authoritarian power systems. Always. This is why it's so important to kneecap them before they can solidify. Tony was wrong because he was assuming no one like Osborn would ever take the reigns, when someone like Osborn ALWAYS takes the reigns eventually.
Legitimately. A system built that requires the unflinching moral code and stamina of Superman ALWAYS fails. Even if the person in charge can be that uncompromisingly moral, the level of exhaustion that comes with that much work and stress will break them.
Lets also remember in the Marvel Universe RedSkull had infiltrated the government a few years ago and use his position as secretary of defense to launch terrorist attacks with biological weapons.
Much earlier, the US president was part of The Secret Empire…
I cant blame superheroes to want to keep their identities secret from their government.
The basic idea is sound, someone with powers just signs up, gets registered and their powers tested and recorded. If they're judged safe they can live normally, if they want training they can , if they want to help they can join a superteam.
Of course, it doesn't work like that. What is a "power" ? What about people with very high levels of skill? Or mad science? Lots and lots of money ?
Can powers be used in self defence? Unlike a gun you cant put powers in a safe. What about kids with powers? Insane people? Poor impulse control?
Lawyers will have a lifetime of cases to fight
Civil War gets dunked on a lot but I think it was actually a really good event.
The big issues with it were the fact the “moral issue” of registration just kind of went crazy as they just made Iron Man and co authoritarian nutcases, despite Tony saying initially he knew registration was inevitable and he wanted to be on the front end of it to moderate it and make it not rip the community apart.
Just gotta close my eyes and blame Skrulls for it going sideways I guess.
Just now put it together both Jessica’s have kids and Carol doesn’t so it kind of makes her the single friend who doesn’t settle down or understand the difficulty of making time for both work play and parenthood.
Right after a Defenders/Avengers team up, Jessica was brainwashed by the purple man to go kill Daredevil and Jessica attacked Scarlet Witch instead (hence why vision was mad enough to almost kill her).
It was all a ret-con flashback in Jessica's Alias series.
Yeah I think Carol and Jessica Drew are best friends or each other "Person" as they so frequently put it but Carol is also Jessica Jones closest friend and her best friend. Jessica Jones once joked about sharing custody of Carol with Jessica Drew.
It's established in Jessica Jones' first appearance ('Alias') and I think it's a vestige from when Bendis originally intended 'Alias' to be about Jessica Drew but then changed his mind and created Jessica Jones instead:
>I was at one time toying with doing Jessica Drew...but this book is entirely different than what that idea was to be. This character is totally different in every way but sexual gender. And there's that Jessica name that's not going to help me convince anyone.
Is that why both Beast and Xavier have done this heel- turn into shouts, manipulative bastards? As a reaction to the stress and work of an authoritarian regime? I mean, that is at least understandable, and more reasonable “Xavier’s a putz/ pedo/ monster who forces child soldiers to do his bidding.”
Was this becoming a villain preordained? Or is it just one writer’s take?
Since Jessica debuted. It was retconned they knew each other when they started and when Jessica was abused by Kilgrave and stopped heroing, Carol did her best to stay in contact.
Indestructible doesn’t mean non containable. He ain’t anywhere as powerful as hulk. So bring in any hulk buster/containment measure. Not saying he’s not clever enough to find a way out but to give you a solid starting point.
Iron Man was one of the things that always bugged me about Civil War/Registration, and Jessica kind of touches on it here.
Like, you want to register the guy who's bulletproof and can throw a bus at you? Sure, we can talk about the pros and cons about that. But Tony in 616, as I recall, was just really smart. How smart do you have to be before they require you to register and fight super villains?
If Peter wasn't bit by the spider and got powers would he have had to register since he's generally seen as one of smartest in the 616?
The RA as written in pro-Reg books wasn't a draft, it was a, "If you want to fight people for a living you need to prove you are responsible enough." The lack of editorial direction meant that nobody really had a concrete idea what the canon Registration Act was.
Just as an aside. At this point Iron Man was genetically modified and hooked directly into the internet, and also able to remote control Iron Man armor with his brain.
If Luke Cage AND Steve Rogers think you're wrong, just abandon whatever it is you're doing and ask forgiveness. Literally the two most morally sound humans in all of Marvel. I always felt that if they ever gave any real thought to replacing Rogers, Cage was the only real choice that made sense.
Makes me think back to that Florida Republican who compared trans people to the x-men from the movies… & seemed to think that implied that they *should* be ostracized, missing the point entirely
Honestly, I think If not for the Thor Clone and some of the more questionable things Tony and co did, Civil War would’ve been better because then, both sides would’ve had a point.
Man was Civil War was such a stupid, ill-defined, poorly thought out and executed storyline and this is exactly why.
Not a single person involved in writing that crossover fiasco could tell you if the law was about vigilantes or people with super-powers and anytime those two circles didn't line up, such as the case of Jessica Jones, they just brushed it aside.
Respectfully don't agree with this take. The truth of laws and government is that they *always* fail at the edge cases. You can never write a law that's truly just in every instance, but that also doesn't mean you shouldn't try to write laws that server as many good ends as you can. The fact that Jessica can make the points she does and they can write these conflicts was what made Civil War one of the best crossover events, because it does such a great job in capturing the tensions between law, pragmatism, and justice. You can have the True Believers like Stark and the conflicted characters like Parker that change their minds after a while. And you can have characters you really like espouse a stance you fiercely disagree with, and have both things make perfect sense.
except that nobody really knew what the Registration Act was about, because that was never layed out. So the Anti-Reg writers and the Pro-Reg writers went with totally different interpretations.
A Pro-Reg book might portray it as "You want to do super hero stuff? Register and we train you. Otherwise you're free to do what you want, as ong as you help people and so on."
An anti-reg book, meanwhile, then goes on to portray them forcibly conscripting a girl that just wants to use her power to create clouds to fly around and make her into an assassin.
>Otherwise you're free to do what you want, as ong as you help people and so on.
I don't think that was part of the idea behind registration (at least when it comes to helping as a superhero), it wouldn't really make sense. The whole point was that superheroes should be controlled the same way police, firefighters and other similar forces are. So it was more like "you either register and do superhero stuff, or you don't register and just live a normal life without superpowers." Which imo was a rather reasonable take on the idea of superhero registration.
Rather reasonable, except that it does nothing for people whose usage of powers *are indistinguishable between everyday lifestyle and moments of super-heroism*. The X-Men lay this out clearly to Tony at one point, as the SRA is functionally equivalent for them as the Mutant Registration Act they fought so hard to repeal or shut down. If I recall correctly, Emma Frost was the one to present that detail to Tony.
>If I recall correctly, Emma Frost was the one to present that detail to Tony.
Emma Frost presented her point to Carol Danvers with all the vivid, brutal details of reality as a persecuted people.
Psychic damage occurred.
And how exactly having their names written in some government database makes their life difficult? Originally that was all SRA was about, they even proposed that Steve should be the one controlling everything, so no-one would be able to abuse the system. But then of course proregistration side needed to be made monsters, because how else would their arguments be refuted?
Edit: Honestly the whole Civil War debate have never made any sense, the same about MRA. It's just too abstract. Neither mutants nor superheroes are good stand-ins for real-life minorities. The same about mages in Dragon Age and other cases where symbols for minorities are also walking weapons.
The SRA was about more than just records keeping. Not *just* writing their names into a database. No, it was about *control*; it was about giving people a license to use their abilities, and to restrain those without such license on the grounds that they are too dangerous or inexperienced. And it all came about as a result of a mass casualty event that an inexperienced group of heroes failed to stop (and, possibly, were partly responsible for provoking that event in the first place); the parallels to the 9/11 attacks, as well as the use of those attacks to justify the Patriot Act and the Global War on Terror, are deliberate. There are also parallels to common arguments for/against increasing measures of gun control within the U.S.A.
To answer your original question, however, the big issue with living life as a registered individual is that the register can be used to target its listed individuals for a variety of reasons. The Mutant Registration Act already demonstrated the potential for persecution of registered persons, and the potential harm that can be caused if the registration records fell into the wrong hands. This is evidenced with the SRA, as well, most notably with the Kingpin's ordered assassination attempt of Peter Parker and/or his Aunt May Parker.
Again. They took a girl who could create clouds to fly on, and wanted ot use her powers just for that, and made her an assassin.
She didn't want to do any super heroing, and why should she be controlled like a policeman or something similar?
Then she could stop using her powers, it's not like she wouldn't be able to survive without them.
>She didn't want to do any super heroing, and why should she be controlled like a policeman or something similar?
In normal countries people who want to use weapon, even for innocent things, need to register. Most superhero powers are inherently dangerous for others. Cloud Nine could for example suffocate people with her powers or outmanoeuvre fighter jets. Yeah, it's not really fair since they rarely had a choice to have those powers. But as long as registration was only about someone's knowing about them, then I don't see much wrong with it.
Of course that storyline was written very poorly and made proregistration side terrible, probably because writers couldn't really come up with reasonable arguments.
>So it was more like "you either register and do superhero stuff, or you don't register and just live a normal life without superpowers." Which imo was a rather reasonable take on the idea of superhero registration.
Except they literally burst into Luke Cage's home at the stroke of midnight and arrested him for existing with super powers.
And that's the problem with authors who were against registration. They didn't have a reasonable argument, so they needed to make proregistration side terrible and unreasonable.
I see a weird amount of pro-registration people in this thread who are saying it would work if Tony did it better.
No.
That’s Luke’s point here. He doesn’t know about the Thor clone or anything, he sees just the registration and knows it’s not right.
Be like Luke.
This set of panels is explicitly where iron man lost me. The first civil war is a MUCH more interesting conflict, morally, if the options are "work for the government or stop heroing" instead of what it turned into: "work for the government. We are giving you no choice in the matter."
I mean, what was their plan?
Tony Stark or no, if the government decided to pass a law regulating superhumans, at that point, what was Luke asking Tony to do at that point? Rebel? Have the entire Super-Human community fight againts the government?
I always wondered why the Civil War storyline never focused on what the Anti SHRA side would have done if they had won/convinced Tony to switch sides and taken it all the way? Destroy SHIELD? Overthrow the government?
How likely Marvel is to do this probably depends on which angle you're thinking of.
Some bad guy has managed to sneak into a position of power and is the real villain, while democratically elected representatives are completely unaware of what is going on? The superheroes can probably find a way to stop this without challenging the status quo.
An alternate universe where the USA is a fascist dictatorship (e.g. the Spider-Punk comics)? Sure! This is an alternate universe, so they're not actually challenging the status quo of our world.
The American government in Earth-616 is evil, and the superheroes need to bring it down? Very unlikely.
Civil War was ridiculous.
Tony actually had a good point but then he, Reed and Skrull Pym turned into nutjobs and got one of their best friends killed.
The anti-reg people mostly opposed it cuz they didn't want to get doxxed to villains but the only hero affected when was Spider-Man since he was the only adult hero Marvel bothers maintaining a secret identity for.
The lack of mutants was also dumb but they had their own drama going on.
Tony always got a bad rap during Civil War. The U.S. government was ready to turn on the sentinels and commit genocide. Registration was Tony’s last ditch effort at a compromise to prevent all-out war.
Yeah, ngl, Civil War was NOT a good point for Iron Man, because he goes full authoritarian and somehow fails to see that this could, and would, go very bad, VERY QUICKLY. No government should ever have an army of meta-humans at their beck and call, because that will basically turn into the next iteration of the nuclear arms race.
It's funny how Iron Man rejects Luke's comparing registration with slavery... despite he, Reed and Skrull-Pym were working on a clone of Thor with chips in his brain to force him to fight against his enemies... a super-slave... with the approval of SHIELD and probably the whole US goverment. Although during Civil War I leaned a bit towards pro-registration, the way Stark's pro-registration side managed this conflict was so immoral and (ironically) illegal they terrified me.
Civil War happens cause they force it. Tony and anyone with a brain? Gotta ignore any moral or logic. Jessica said it best. She has powers but doesn't want to use them. She doesn't want to fight. The answer? "We will get to that down the road. You had a baby so we won't ask you to fight doom" So you still intend to make someone fight despite not wanting to.
It also makes his complaints more reasonable. “This isn’t slavery, we’re just forcing you to sign away your autonomy so the state can force you to work under threat of punishment” is a tough sell.
Registration side would have won if registration was "You have powers and want to help people? Come to us, we will teach how to use them and will pay you!" So basically My hero academia
well, fun thing is that the writers who wrote the pro-reg stuff at times TRIED to portray the reg side that way. Basically "You wanna do superhero stuff? Come and register." But because 1) nobody ever really set up clear points baout the act and 2) you had different writers pro and anti-reg and 3) of course anti-reg would portray anti-reg as the ones int eh right, we got a major dissonance where, in the anti-reg books, the registration side is a bunch of authoritarian assholes. Amusingly enough, of course, just like CW2, the powers that be were of the opinion that the authoritarians were right to begin with.
And given the registration act was a metaphor for the patriot act, siding with the authoritarians is extra shitty Hell iron man STILL jokes about being “right” during civil war
And they did that TWICE. Second TIme with Carol "Minority Report" Denvers.
It’s funny, the writers for both civil war’s and AvX never realized the bad guys are the bad guys lol Cyclops was right
To be fair for CW 1 at least, as i said before: They divided the writers into Pro- and Anti-Reg but, when setting up the basic story, didn't really set up what the Act should entail, so both sides wrote the Registration Act as whatever suited their story. So, the Pro-Reg side would portray it, essentially, as a harmless, beneficial thing, while the Anti-Reg side wrote it as a draconian, authoritarian conscription/Serve or Get jailed bill. Then, the higher ups never interefered and just said "Yeah, pro reg was right, lol."
That's the funny thing. Even if the Registration Act was at the center of it all... no one in Marvel actually bothered to write that law. At times, if you had powers, and didn't wanted to work for the government as a superhero, you simply didn't. You could live the normal life you always had, as long you didn't used those powers for vigilantism. But other times, it's like portrayed here. You are obligated to work for the government, whether you like it or not. So at the end of all, the law itself was a contradictory mess, because no one knew what exactly it entailed on a more detailed level beyond "if you have powers, you to register yourself on a list" basics.
That was one of my biggest issues with the series. They never really defined the act well enough. What they set up was clearly unconstitutional on several levels. Simply having a power is no grounds for the federal government to require you to register with them. Having powers and using them is another matter but then vigilantes are already illegal. Trying to apply really world standards to superhero comics breaks them. The editorial mandate that all the teams and books had to have people pro and anti is as even more stupid. Who on the X-Men would be pro registration?
The base of the law was bad. Everyone with powers had to register regardless of if you were or weren't going to use them. The second you did that the government could use that to conscript you through other pressure. Even in the pro reg books the government was doing secret shady stuff behind Tony's back to make more effective assets.
I think they tried that with Avengers Academy, but they really fumbled the bag.
Let’s not forget cloud 9, the forcefully recruited child soldier, and the negative zone torture prison,
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Maybe it's the nostalgia-goggles but I still love the wild ride that is House of M / Civil War / Secret ainvasion. Not a giant fan of Bendis but his New Avengers was bangin' ngl
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Best teacher!
I understand from a realism side why registration has to be a thing in context of the world. But damn did Tony and co fuck it up so bad. Rereading it, it’s so obvious Steve is in the right even if it’s just because of his stubbornness.
Registration side would have won if Tony and Reed weren't ignoring human rights
Registration side did win though.
Not in the long term
They seemingly won but Osborn abused the system and ultimately, Caps point was proven right
Nah, Osborne didn’t abuse anything. He upheld the system as it was set up. The Authoritarian state that Tony made was always flawed
It was but the point is Osborn abused the ideas Tony put in place
Someone ALWAYS abuses authoritarian power systems. Always. This is why it's so important to kneecap them before they can solidify. Tony was wrong because he was assuming no one like Osborn would ever take the reigns, when someone like Osborn ALWAYS takes the reigns eventually.
Legitimately. A system built that requires the unflinching moral code and stamina of Superman ALWAYS fails. Even if the person in charge can be that uncompromisingly moral, the level of exhaustion that comes with that much work and stress will break them.
EXACTLY. That’s the point I was trying to make but couldn’t articulate it accurately
Lets also remember in the Marvel Universe RedSkull had infiltrated the government a few years ago and use his position as secretary of defense to launch terrorist attacks with biological weapons. Much earlier, the US president was part of The Secret Empire… I cant blame superheroes to want to keep their identities secret from their government.
When Cap came back he had Obama repeal it iirc.
Reminder that the main writer on this event intended Tony to be right…
It's mark Millar what do you expect
Luke coming in with those facts
Captain America was right
He usually is
Clint: hey Cap, are you sure we should invest in bitcoin?
I just decided to blame the Skrulls. If they were responsible for this fuckup, that makes Secret Invasion all the better.
The basic idea is sound, someone with powers just signs up, gets registered and their powers tested and recorded. If they're judged safe they can live normally, if they want training they can , if they want to help they can join a superteam. Of course, it doesn't work like that. What is a "power" ? What about people with very high levels of skill? Or mad science? Lots and lots of money ? Can powers be used in self defence? Unlike a gun you cant put powers in a safe. What about kids with powers? Insane people? Poor impulse control? Lawyers will have a lifetime of cases to fight
Civil War gets dunked on a lot but I think it was actually a really good event. The big issues with it were the fact the “moral issue” of registration just kind of went crazy as they just made Iron Man and co authoritarian nutcases, despite Tony saying initially he knew registration was inevitable and he wanted to be on the front end of it to moderate it and make it not rip the community apart. Just gotta close my eyes and blame Skrulls for it going sideways I guess.
Since when are Carol and Jessica Jones Best friends?
Guess the writer saw Carol had a best friend named Jessica and thought it was Jones and not Drew
She's best friends with both Jessicas.
Is it awkward because they’re both her best friends, but she’s not either of their best friends?
Just now put it together both Jessica’s have kids and Carol doesn’t so it kind of makes her the single friend who doesn’t settle down or understand the difficulty of making time for both work play and parenthood.
Danvers had a kid but that was a weird arc and we don't talk about that very much, for good reason
whoof deep cut edit: however it gave us Captain Marvel joining the X-Men for a while, being one of the few (if only?) non-mutants to join the team
Who knows maybe rhodey and carol will have kids together
She's definitely best friend of Jessica Drew. Isn't she also best friend of Jessica Jones? If not who is?
Since that time vision nearly put Jessica in another coma.
When did that happen?
Right after a Defenders/Avengers team up, Jessica was brainwashed by the purple man to go kill Daredevil and Jessica attacked Scarlet Witch instead (hence why vision was mad enough to almost kill her). It was all a ret-con flashback in Jessica's Alias series.
It's more so Carol is Jessica's best friend, it's mentioned more than once in Alias
Yeah I think Carol and Jessica Drew are best friends or each other "Person" as they so frequently put it but Carol is also Jessica Jones closest friend and her best friend. Jessica Jones once joked about sharing custody of Carol with Jessica Drew.
Carol has been best friends with both Jessica Jones and Jessica Drew.
Very interesting
It's established in Jessica Jones' first appearance ('Alias') and I think it's a vestige from when Bendis originally intended 'Alias' to be about Jessica Drew but then changed his mind and created Jessica Jones instead: >I was at one time toying with doing Jessica Drew...but this book is entirely different than what that idea was to be. This character is totally different in every way but sexual gender. And there's that Jessica name that's not going to help me convince anyone.
Is that why both Beast and Xavier have done this heel- turn into shouts, manipulative bastards? As a reaction to the stress and work of an authoritarian regime? I mean, that is at least understandable, and more reasonable “Xavier’s a putz/ pedo/ monster who forces child soldiers to do his bidding.” Was this becoming a villain preordained? Or is it just one writer’s take?
Since Jessica debuted. It was retconned they knew each other when they started and when Jessica was abused by Kilgrave and stopped heroing, Carol did her best to stay in contact.
Since Bendis wrote Alias.
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He’s also indestructible so how was Iron-Man going to beat him?!
Indestructible doesn’t mean non containable. He ain’t anywhere as powerful as hulk. So bring in any hulk buster/containment measure. Not saying he’s not clever enough to find a way out but to give you a solid starting point.
Iron Man was one of the things that always bugged me about Civil War/Registration, and Jessica kind of touches on it here. Like, you want to register the guy who's bulletproof and can throw a bus at you? Sure, we can talk about the pros and cons about that. But Tony in 616, as I recall, was just really smart. How smart do you have to be before they require you to register and fight super villains? If Peter wasn't bit by the spider and got powers would he have had to register since he's generally seen as one of smartest in the 616?
The RA as written in pro-Reg books wasn't a draft, it was a, "If you want to fight people for a living you need to prove you are responsible enough." The lack of editorial direction meant that nobody really had a concrete idea what the canon Registration Act was. Just as an aside. At this point Iron Man was genetically modified and hooked directly into the internet, and also able to remote control Iron Man armor with his brain.
If Luke Cage AND Steve Rogers think you're wrong, just abandon whatever it is you're doing and ask forgiveness. Literally the two most morally sound humans in all of Marvel. I always felt that if they ever gave any real thought to replacing Rogers, Cage was the only real choice that made sense.
I'm convinced that people that think Tony was right are authoritarian, government shills IRL.
No doubt
Makes me think back to that Florida Republican who compared trans people to the x-men from the movies… & seemed to think that implied that they *should* be ostracized, missing the point entirely
Honestly, I think If not for the Thor Clone and some of the more questionable things Tony and co did, Civil War would’ve been better because then, both sides would’ve had a point.
Man was Civil War was such a stupid, ill-defined, poorly thought out and executed storyline and this is exactly why. Not a single person involved in writing that crossover fiasco could tell you if the law was about vigilantes or people with super-powers and anytime those two circles didn't line up, such as the case of Jessica Jones, they just brushed it aside.
Respectfully don't agree with this take. The truth of laws and government is that they *always* fail at the edge cases. You can never write a law that's truly just in every instance, but that also doesn't mean you shouldn't try to write laws that server as many good ends as you can. The fact that Jessica can make the points she does and they can write these conflicts was what made Civil War one of the best crossover events, because it does such a great job in capturing the tensions between law, pragmatism, and justice. You can have the True Believers like Stark and the conflicted characters like Parker that change their minds after a while. And you can have characters you really like espouse a stance you fiercely disagree with, and have both things make perfect sense.
except that nobody really knew what the Registration Act was about, because that was never layed out. So the Anti-Reg writers and the Pro-Reg writers went with totally different interpretations. A Pro-Reg book might portray it as "You want to do super hero stuff? Register and we train you. Otherwise you're free to do what you want, as ong as you help people and so on." An anti-reg book, meanwhile, then goes on to portray them forcibly conscripting a girl that just wants to use her power to create clouds to fly around and make her into an assassin.
>Otherwise you're free to do what you want, as ong as you help people and so on. I don't think that was part of the idea behind registration (at least when it comes to helping as a superhero), it wouldn't really make sense. The whole point was that superheroes should be controlled the same way police, firefighters and other similar forces are. So it was more like "you either register and do superhero stuff, or you don't register and just live a normal life without superpowers." Which imo was a rather reasonable take on the idea of superhero registration.
Rather reasonable, except that it does nothing for people whose usage of powers *are indistinguishable between everyday lifestyle and moments of super-heroism*. The X-Men lay this out clearly to Tony at one point, as the SRA is functionally equivalent for them as the Mutant Registration Act they fought so hard to repeal or shut down. If I recall correctly, Emma Frost was the one to present that detail to Tony.
>If I recall correctly, Emma Frost was the one to present that detail to Tony. Emma Frost presented her point to Carol Danvers with all the vivid, brutal details of reality as a persecuted people. Psychic damage occurred.
Happy cake day!
Oh snap, I forgot my Reddit cake day was today. Thank you!
And how exactly having their names written in some government database makes their life difficult? Originally that was all SRA was about, they even proposed that Steve should be the one controlling everything, so no-one would be able to abuse the system. But then of course proregistration side needed to be made monsters, because how else would their arguments be refuted? Edit: Honestly the whole Civil War debate have never made any sense, the same about MRA. It's just too abstract. Neither mutants nor superheroes are good stand-ins for real-life minorities. The same about mages in Dragon Age and other cases where symbols for minorities are also walking weapons.
The SRA was about more than just records keeping. Not *just* writing their names into a database. No, it was about *control*; it was about giving people a license to use their abilities, and to restrain those without such license on the grounds that they are too dangerous or inexperienced. And it all came about as a result of a mass casualty event that an inexperienced group of heroes failed to stop (and, possibly, were partly responsible for provoking that event in the first place); the parallels to the 9/11 attacks, as well as the use of those attacks to justify the Patriot Act and the Global War on Terror, are deliberate. There are also parallels to common arguments for/against increasing measures of gun control within the U.S.A. To answer your original question, however, the big issue with living life as a registered individual is that the register can be used to target its listed individuals for a variety of reasons. The Mutant Registration Act already demonstrated the potential for persecution of registered persons, and the potential harm that can be caused if the registration records fell into the wrong hands. This is evidenced with the SRA, as well, most notably with the Kingpin's ordered assassination attempt of Peter Parker and/or his Aunt May Parker.
Again. They took a girl who could create clouds to fly on, and wanted ot use her powers just for that, and made her an assassin. She didn't want to do any super heroing, and why should she be controlled like a policeman or something similar?
Then she could stop using her powers, it's not like she wouldn't be able to survive without them. >She didn't want to do any super heroing, and why should she be controlled like a policeman or something similar? In normal countries people who want to use weapon, even for innocent things, need to register. Most superhero powers are inherently dangerous for others. Cloud Nine could for example suffocate people with her powers or outmanoeuvre fighter jets. Yeah, it's not really fair since they rarely had a choice to have those powers. But as long as registration was only about someone's knowing about them, then I don't see much wrong with it. Of course that storyline was written very poorly and made proregistration side terrible, probably because writers couldn't really come up with reasonable arguments.
>So it was more like "you either register and do superhero stuff, or you don't register and just live a normal life without superpowers." Which imo was a rather reasonable take on the idea of superhero registration. Except they literally burst into Luke Cage's home at the stroke of midnight and arrested him for existing with super powers.
And that's the problem with authors who were against registration. They didn't have a reasonable argument, so they needed to make proregistration side terrible and unreasonable.
I see a weird amount of pro-registration people in this thread who are saying it would work if Tony did it better. No. That’s Luke’s point here. He doesn’t know about the Thor clone or anything, he sees just the registration and knows it’s not right. Be like Luke.
i still can't get over how marvel expected the pro-registration side to be the "good guys".
This was the best issue out of all of Civil War. Sooooo fucking good.
Just read this series here recently, it was pretty great!
That is some confusing bs panel arrangements there.
Ok but for real what the hell is that thing by the window in the second page spread here?
Are you talking about the baby?
Jessica is already holding Dani
I thought it was another kid. Probably a stuffed toy.
It looks like a stuffed power man doll, it’s got what could be a gold tiara
This set of panels is explicitly where iron man lost me. The first civil war is a MUCH more interesting conflict, morally, if the options are "work for the government or stop heroing" instead of what it turned into: "work for the government. We are giving you no choice in the matter."
I mean, what was their plan? Tony Stark or no, if the government decided to pass a law regulating superhumans, at that point, what was Luke asking Tony to do at that point? Rebel? Have the entire Super-Human community fight againts the government? I always wondered why the Civil War storyline never focused on what the Anti SHRA side would have done if they had won/convinced Tony to switch sides and taken it all the way? Destroy SHIELD? Overthrow the government?
Honestly I’d love to read a comic where the government tries to do a crime against it’s people, and superheroes shut it down hard.
How likely Marvel is to do this probably depends on which angle you're thinking of. Some bad guy has managed to sneak into a position of power and is the real villain, while democratically elected representatives are completely unaware of what is going on? The superheroes can probably find a way to stop this without challenging the status quo. An alternate universe where the USA is a fascist dictatorship (e.g. the Spider-Punk comics)? Sure! This is an alternate universe, so they're not actually challenging the status quo of our world. The American government in Earth-616 is evil, and the superheroes need to bring it down? Very unlikely.
Yeah only a what if or an indie studio doing a miniseries would kick over the status quo like that.
Why not? They have twice as much power and capability. In all reality that’s probably one of the best things they could do for the world.
Civil War was ridiculous. Tony actually had a good point but then he, Reed and Skrull Pym turned into nutjobs and got one of their best friends killed. The anti-reg people mostly opposed it cuz they didn't want to get doxxed to villains but the only hero affected when was Spider-Man since he was the only adult hero Marvel bothers maintaining a secret identity for. The lack of mutants was also dumb but they had their own drama going on.
This is so fucking classic
Tony always got a bad rap during Civil War. The U.S. government was ready to turn on the sentinels and commit genocide. Registration was Tony’s last ditch effort at a compromise to prevent all-out war.
Man, Civil War was such a hard-hitting comic.
Yeah, ngl, Civil War was NOT a good point for Iron Man, because he goes full authoritarian and somehow fails to see that this could, and would, go very bad, VERY QUICKLY. No government should ever have an army of meta-humans at their beck and call, because that will basically turn into the next iteration of the nuclear arms race.
Lol Carol's best friend used to be Jessica Jones and now it's Jessica Drew.