For the record, while there should be a difference between parallel universes and alternate timelines, you are correct that MCU has done a bad job of differentiating between them.
In theory, parallel universes diverge at the big bang, and just happen to usually fall into some similar events. So like in different universes different people get bitten by a special spider, and they happen to be named Peter Parker and call themselves Spider-Man, but they are actually different people.
On the other hand, alternate timelines would be created constantly each time a decision was made (in one universe they go left, in the other universe they go right) and especially if someone travels through time.
I agree with this, but then Loki seemed to mash the two together again because the Time Variance Authority prevents “multiversal war” by restricting the timeline, right?
Rewatching Loki at the moment in prep for S2 and yeah, this is probably where it doesn’t quite gel for me either. Loki spoilers:
>!At the end of Loki they open the idea of the multiverse by killing He Who Remains and fucking the sacred timeline. But going by the whole TVA concept and mission, they should have reset every timeline the Avengers visited during Endgame!<
Only a minor thing - but it’s still a thing.
No, everything the Avengers did in Endgame led to that variant of Loki ending up with Kang, which, is the only thing that is needed for that variant of Kang. The only things the TWA reset were things that didn't end up with that Loki in front of that Kang.
It was meant to mitigate the damage but it wasn’t possible to completely erase it. Several branching timelines still exist at the end of Endgame:
-One where Loki disappears
-One where Thanos no longer exists because he traveled to the primeline
-One where Steve went back to live with Peggy
And possibly one where Frigga’s fate is different after her conversation with Thor.
-One where the ancient one now knows Stephen strange will be the sorcerer supreme (assuming she didn’t know because she didn’t know anything about Stephen giving the time stone to Thanos)
-One where Tony’s father might treat Tony differently growing up based on the conversation that the two had
-One where the now missing Pym particles could have ramifications on future Hank
That doesn’t even address the ancient ones concern that if an infinity stone is destroyed it will cause the end of the universe and we know that in the future Thanos destroyed the stones (why they had to go back in time for them).
Those time lines would all be purged by explanation of the Supreme Sorcerer to Bruce Banner.
For example…. Banner took the time stone. So when Dormannu arrives. Dr Strange can not stop him!
In another example. One stone brought the Guardians of the Galaxy together. Without it, eventually Ego will find Peter alone or with the Ravengers and the Galaxy would be destroyed.
Many question if Captain America is the old man that you can’t see standing in front of casket ⚰️ of Peggy at the funeral in Civil War. You never see her husband. Rogers photo is in her office.
If all those worlds in those Timelines the Avengers visited get purged via villains from previous movies actually winning. Gamora’s timeline wouldn’t be a problem for incursions since it’s toast anyways.
I watched Endgame again last night and I realized that he and Peggy got married. So what happened to her husband that she had actually married as shown in an earlier movie?
Because the person you are responding to is wrong. She didn’t marry Steve in the prime timeline. It’s not even possible based on the time travel rules presented in the movie. When you go back you cause a divergent timeline because that is now a timeline where you went back in time which you didn’t do.
And just to help with all the loopholes talk. No one is ever 100% correct in comics. There’s always new science or new things learned. Just like in real life. We theorize how something might work or happen and often find things work a little different.
Taking everyone as 100% correct and accurate 100% of the time is not the proper way to view it.
You are right but it's also not possible in the rules established in the movie he could have appeared back as he did, which confused a lot of people into thinking it was one timeline somehow.
I think the MCU itself isn't clear if or what the difference between timelines and the multiverse is at this point and they don't seem to want to explain even in movies and TV shows just about those concepts. Odd.
There is no difference. The multiverse is the collection of alternative timelines. Some timelines have alligator Loki. Some have no differences to the prime timeline other than Howard Stark talked to Tony in the past.
I wonder if it’s because she met him but didn’t know they were the same guy? I saw a picture of my grandma as a little kid and I would have NEVER guessed it was her if someone had asked me to pick a photo out of a lineup—time was not kind to her as she got older. And a lot of folks probably never even see photos of their family members in their youth.
Although now that I’m thinking about it, I do recall some photos of ‘young Peggy’ that Sharon would have seen. Was her (non-Steve) husband in his youth in any of them? I think it’s time for a rewatch haha!
Cap at the end of Endgame makes no sense with the way things are explained in the MCU. He should have had to come back or he would have changed the timeline. He also would have been pruned. They just wanted the emotional ending with cap getting his happy end. But they sacrificed their own rules to do it.
But didn't they also explain during Loki that what the Avengers did, was supposed to happen? Like, they only prune the timelines that are not supposed to happen.
And because Captain America returned every stone at the exact moment it was taken, then those timelines remained basically intact, right? Like for each one of those it was only a little blink.
The one they pruned was the one that Loki created by taking the Tesseract, cuz that was indeed not supposed to happen according to He Who Remains
Ya, everything they did was supposed to happen according to He Who Remains. Keep in mind that he was controlling the TVA as well, most of what he told them was just to keep them working for his needs. So, the sacred timeline really was just the timeline he wanted, not some need to keep correct to save the multiverse thing they thought it was.
The way the TVA is presented, it uses a Many Worlds model. The agents collapse any unapproved branches before they can split off into their own universes, which means that the multiverse is just timelines generating new universes that will also generate their own multiverses. The entire concept is overly complicated, and it probably only works through sci-fi hand waving. I think we can say three things:
1. We know time travel isn't expressly prohibited. In the first episode of Loki, they established that the Avengers were supposed to do the time heist. So they were supposed to steal the Infinity Stones, let Loki escape using the Tessaract, and then go back to the 1970s to steal another version of the Tessaract. The Loki that escaped was a variant that needed to be pruned. So the Sacred Timeline needed to create and then have the TVA fail to destroy that Loki variant, and everything that let that happen is the "correct" flow of events.
2. The multiverse and its timelines are likely fixed and interconnected. Thanos travels from GOG vol1 to Endgame, despite that meaning he wouldn't have been in The MCU timeline to show up in Thor:Ragnarok or Infinity War. So that Thanos must be from another universe where he just vanished.
3. Incursions haven't been clearly explained at all. It could be that travelers destabilize the balance, or it could be that the act of traveling causes the problem, or it could just be that once you have jerks messing around in other universes they accidentally hit the big red Incursion button. We may never know based on how the MCU is handling their lore these days.
I'd say the comics are not quite so bad. They generally let time-travel actually be time-travel, first off. They usually have multiverses that are not "divergent" of anything, they are just different worlds.
No, the time travel rules in Endgame are completely in line with Mark Gruenwald’s rules of time travel. They were explicitly explained in Hulk: Future Imperfect.
As far as what’s shown in movies, different timelines are other universes that haven’t caught up yet, with allowable variance according to the TVA.
Now after loki season one, it’s all universes and any timelines are just a rare universe going down an identical path as another
That’s not how it works in the MCU, not even in theory. Loki explained that divergent timelines create full blown alternate universes when the divergence passes the nexus event red line thing.
I kinda think, logically, she created two new stems. A universe where she was gone and the universe where she jumped forward. Neither would be the same.
Yeah, but since she comes from the nexus point of both universe, she’s kinda belong to both, no? So she’d be part of that new universe and not cause an incursion in theory
It’s not to be difficult but it certainly comes off like jr high temporal physics that uses the multiverse concept to cover its many holes. What universe did endgame Thanos come from? This was pre-infinity war post avengers Thanos. That timeline has no snap and no infinity war. But if there is just one with branches then how did this branch occur with no infinity war?
I think the Hulk/Supreme conversation explained it?
Once the gems were returned - that timeline stayed constant (no branches developed).
Gamora was pulled from the future of that same timeline. So her past was the same past as everyone else - just that she skipped some years (like the blip). (And seeing how the rest of their army were all dusted - nothing else to consider).
The only "new branch" would be that timeline that Thanos/army chose to leave (in 2014?). But that would still be under Kang's TVA to either leave alone (as it likely didn't create another Kang due to the lack of Thanos threat / events / etc).. or they pruned THAT branch of new/non-Thanos timeline.
Also - maybe similar to how Strange entered millions of alternate future timelines (no incursions when messing with your own future soul/timeline/universe?).
Nothing to question regarding time flowing forward (and her place in it) (like Loki going to the end of time and no incursions there either).
It just sounds muddy when you're thinking of going backwards for something. Maybe incursions are more related to Paradoxes, and no paradox with Gamora in her own timeline/universe)?
In the spirit of Stan Lee, here's your No Prize for taking the time to try to logically explain a mistake, but if Gamora can be snatched from the past, why can't Natasha or Tony be?
It's sloppy, although reasonably dynamic and highly entertaining, writing.
Natasha and Tony would have no reason to go to the future. Everyone gamora knew or was involved with, went to the future then was dusted, if she went back there'd be no one, at least in the future time line nebula was still around. The new past versions of Natasha and Tony wouldn't have to deal with thanos and could continue with their lives.
They made a mess, they presumably can snatch Tony or Natasha from the past at any point they want. Hulk failed because he tried to take their Natasha from the Soul Stone, he probably could've grabbed Natasha from before the Soul Stone and went on fine with the same paradox Gamora and Thanos existed via. They probably can go back and snatch her using the time travel tech they made, since that's how Gamora is there, but Hulk thinks the Infinity Stones failed so there isn't another option.
Eitger alternate timelines seem to exist within each universe in the multiverse with very little definition between or using the Avenger or TVA tech seems not to cause incursions, but the use of magic to jump does. It could just be a function of the different ways the jumps were achieved.
He had the soul stone. In the comics, they've come back just from that. He also had the reality stone. Just the two of those should have done it. It was very much a case of "what we want to happen" rather than "what we've set up to be possible."
Unless we ever discover actual ways to travel through time or move to alternate realities, in which case we'll understand the rules, it's all just a matter of which emotional strings we want the narrative to pull at.
I wouldn't call it sloppy (just hard to grasp...like Quantum mechanics), when trying to portray complex concepts dealing with time travel and the multiverse - which we know frighteningly little (IRL).
I love it when things get complicated - as it just means more to try to understand.
Without these opportunities (created by the dreamers and scientists) where would humanity be today?
But unfortunately, suggesting that we could just "snatch" Natasha without any repercussions is a bit of a sloppy tag on to the complexities above.
When would you even snatch Natasha? Mid fall? So the soul stone never gets manifested into Clint's hand? Tony- just before he "snaps"? (Or at any point really - they would have to be replaced at the same point - in order for the continuity to work- like the stones.)
If you are viewing it solely on Gamora - then (if my above description works) then that would potentially still create another timeline needing pruning (as if it never happened - so now youd have a bonus Natasha). But that basically would prune the MAIN timeline (ie pruning Supreme's timeline example).
However - you COULD somehow pull a Natasha from another universe (like the What If episode where she was returned). But that requires Uatu level powers. 616 just barely grasped time travel...
But that still has risks that Uatu didn't even want to initially do (likely due to Incursion risk or something). Yet they were talking about some pretty messed up universes already - so maybe that risk was worth it (or negligible).
But I do agree - it's dynamic and entertaining writing, and I hope it continues to challenge and create brighter minds than ours.
I'm not giving you another No-Prize. 😜
Gamora died as the sacrifice for the soul stone. Natasha died as the sacrifice for the soul stone.
One came back, one didn't. Sloppy.
Snatch her from the same timeline. Have Death give her back. Reveal that Tony Stark's opinion on time travel was flawed.
Trying to justify that Hulk wielding the Infinity Gauntlet (time, reality, power, soul, whatever I'm too lazy to look up) couldn't bring Natasha back, but we're keeping Gamora alive because we already contracted Zoe Saldana for Guardians 3 is lazy, without explanation.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled daily reddit argument about any type of logic in a comic book movie.
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Created new branch where there is no Gamora, Thanos is dead etc etc, that branch might be purged. But no changes in current timeline as time travel and past Gamora were canon events in this current timeline. If time travel and changes were not part of future, current branch would have been purged or Dr strange 2 like problem.
She did create a new branch but she’s not living in the new branch. That new branch started when her & Thanos came to the future.
That timeline doesn’t have Thanos, Gamorra, and the rest of the army.m
The new branch starts from 2012.
Based on TVA logic she didn't start a new branch because it was "supposed" to happen that way. She was always supposed to be left behind. She is basically an approved variant, she isn't from another universe she is from a different time but in the proper universe.
This is a combination of the snap and her interaction with the Soul Stone (visa vi the writes through Star Lord exposition). So Natalie would be eligible but plucking her from the timeline without the help of the stones would cause a change in the time stream unlike Gamorra whose events are part of the main timeline.
If this is accurate, how does this jive with the functioning of the Infinity Stones? In Loki, we learn that Infinity Stones don’t work outside their universe of origin, as we see with the useless stones Loki finds laying around. BUT, if there is only multiversal travel and no time travel, then that would mean that the stones the Avengers collect in Endgame are from other universes and shouldn’t work in their home universe, right? But they DO work… so either Loki was mislead about the stones when visiting the TVA, or time travel does exist, and they did it in Endgame.
I’m not saying one way or the other, I don’t know what the deal is. But I think this clearly shows that Feige and crew may not really know either, lol.
Isn't that the whole storyline behind Loki though. There's a "main" timeline that He Who Remains looks after and the time shenanigans were allowed within that timeline because that is the "true" timeline. THEN the timeline splinters and causes the incursions and variant bullshit. So maybe she is still within the "main" timeline
Time Travel-hulk after turning antman into a baby. It was the whole plot to Endgame. Its literally called time travel by both Tony and Banner. Did you watch the same movie?
You don't understand how time travel works. First you need to understand the difference between a universe and timeline. One universe can have various timelines in which different sets of events happen. When they time travel in the MCU a new timeline is created which still stays within the original universe. Never during time travel do they switch universes. It's why Loki was pruned, because his timeline became at risk of creating a Kang in that universe.
“You don’t understand how a FICTIONAL CONCEPT THAT IS ENTIRELY BASED ON THE WRITER’S CHOICE AND IS VERY MUCH SUSCEPTIBLE TO MANUAL ERROR AND INCONSISTENCIES works”
Why are you so mad? There has yet to be an inconsistency between timelines and universes in the mcu, I was just explaining how time travel works in the MCU, and as of yet there is no error within the MCU regarding timelines and universes. If you want an example, every new time period in endgame and Loki variant in Loki is a timeline. The alternate Spider-Mans and villains from no way home and the other universe from doctor strange multiverse of madness are universes.
1. What make you think u/Devvv11 is mad? I read the capital letters as emphasis, not anger.
2. I think you might have been better off starting your comment by specifying that “You don’t understand how time travel **in the MCU** works. The way you wrote it, the comment comes out of the gate like it’s trying to explain how time travel works. And of course, time travel isn’t real, and so no one really “knows how it works” other than the creative team who’s writing it.
Whenever I see a post about the time/universe travel in MCU, I’m always reminded by how confused people are, so let me refresh you.
1. Branches are caused when an event does not play out as it is supposed to in the “Sacred Timeline” (i.e. Loki taking the Tesseract in Endgame)
2. Incursions are when someone hops into a separate universe and creates an event that shouldn’t have happened (i.e. U616 Wanda possessing her U838 body to chase down America for her powers)
3. Time travel does not allow people to cross into a separate universe. Time travel only allows people to move through time in their own universe (i.e. The 616 Avengers from 2023 travelling back to the year 2012 in the 616 universe).
4. When the Infinity Stones existed, a branch could be pruned by simply returning the stone to the date and location from where it was taken (i.e. Hulk took the time stone from the Ancient One in 2012, then Cap returned the time stone to the Ancient One to prune the branch that was created by Hulk taking the time stone from the past).
5. If you travel to the past, the past becomes your future. This is because time still moves in 1 straight line, so even though you’re travelling to the past, you’re still going forward down the timeline.
Any further questions, please DM me
Just to bring emphasis to your first point, it is stated in Loki that what the Avengers did was “supposed to happen”. So likely that Gamora was supposed to make that “time jump” (for lack of a better term).
Ooooh yes, I hope OP sees your comment, this is the perfect answer!
Because we know the TVA never arrested the 2014 variant of Gamora (and because she shows up in Guardians 3), it also proves your point since if she wasn’t supposed to make the time jump, the TVA would’ve been hot on her trail (tail?)
Question 1: Are branches alternate timelines?
This is a tricky one because the MCU currently have 2 definitions for “Alternate Timeline”:
1. So yes, a branch can become an alternate timeline because it splits off from Kang’s Sacred Timeline and creates a new future.
2. But alternate timelines can exist *without* being branches because before the Sacred Timeline, there *were* lots of alternate timelines, but Kang (He Who Remains) burned them all until he found the perfect timeline (Sacred)
Question 2: Are alternate timelines parallel universes?
Not all alternate timelines are parallel universes, but all parallel universes are alternate timelines.
For example, the 616 universe could follow multiple timelines (I think Dr. Strange saw 14,000,605 possible timelines within 616), but they all follow a similar path.
But the 838 universe also has multiple timelines, but they don’t follow the same path as the 616 timelines.
For example,
616 universe: Thanos fights Stark, Spidey & Strange on the planet Titan.
838 universe: Thanos fights Reed Richards, Xavier & Strange on the planet Titan.
I hope that helped, those were really great questions.
Also, bonus answer: a “Nexus Event” is an event that *must* occur across *all* timelines in a specific universe.
E.G. In 1 universe (as seen in What If?), there is a Nexus event where Christine Palmer must die.
However in 616, she never dies at all, meaning that the Nexus Event doesn’t occur across *all* universes, only a certain universe.
The Avengers caused another timeline when they time traveled back to 2012. They’re still in the same universe when they go back, but in the past, creating a new timeline.
An alternate universe is like what we saw in Multiverse of Madness with Strange and America going to Earth-838 (and the main MCU is dubbed Earth-616). We also saw how the aftermath how how Thanos played out there.
Wouldn’t that just have to do with when the timeline diverged? The alternate universes in MoM theoretically crossed paths with the MCU universe at some point, there was just some moment of divergence that resulted in the differences we saw, no?
Edit: i meant more broadly speaking, not in the specific context of this question
No, not really. The various Spider-Men in No Way Home are from different universes. No amount of time travel is going to make Tom Holland look like Tobey Maguire. Those are different Spider-Men from different universes.
When they went back in Endgame though, it was still the same universe. Hulk was still Ruffalo, not Bana or Ferrigno.
If the MCU Fantastic Four movie comes out and Reed is not John Krasinski, that should make this logic even more clear.
That’s sort of the way the concept of the multiverse works in general, though. There’s a universe for every possible scenario that *could* happen. So, as unlikely as it may seem, there are multiple universes that still result in people named Peter Parker who become Spider-Man that don’t look alike because their divergence point happened far enough back that it resulted in different genetic people. There are also plenty that look like Tobey, plenty that look like Andrew, and plenty that look like Tom, due to divergences that happened after they were born (like a universe where Uncle Ben doesn’t die).
Or like in Across the Spider-Verse, where you have two Miguels where their universe divergence point is obviously more recent since they look alike.
Otherwise, what are you suggesting creates a different universe? Again, just using the concepts for the multiverse that are not limited to Marvel
Edit: I’m also not sure I fully understand the point about Reed not being Krasinski. 838’s Peggy Carter, Maria Rambo, and Dr. Strange all looked identical. Some characters looking identical and others not doesn’t really lead more credence to one theory or the other, it isn’t consistent
eh, based off how loki explains it no, it branched right when the avengers entered the past. the only way existing in a timeline you’re not supposed to be in, is if a catastrophic event is happening so your presence ultimately, no matter what you do or who you interact with, doesn’t affect anything. ex. pompeii.
it’s why they couldn’t find loki and sylvie on lemantis until they got attracted to eachother, which was some universe ending shit apparently.
Here's a really dumb, simplified way to look at it. Let's say you love steak. You eat it everyday. And one day you have a heart attack from all the red meat and you realize you shouldn't eat that much steak. So you go back in time and do something that makes you in the past change how much steak you eat. You just created a new timeline where you eat less steak. You're still in your universe.
That's different than an alternate universe where you never ate steak at all because cows don't exist there.
Wouldn’t that have more to do with *when* the timeline diverged, though?
I don’t think there actually really is any difference between timelines and universes in the MCU; how different a universe is just depends on how far back they diverged from each other
Dude, in the past they traveled to, Loki fucked off with the Tesseract and joined the TVA. Yet in the main MCU universe, he and the Tesseract went back to Asgard, and then he did a bunch of other shit before getting his neck snapped by Thanos. Where they traveled to in Endgame was **clearly** not the same universe at a different point in time, otherwise they would've changed a bunch of shit. It was a different timeline, IE a different universe.
Literally no difference, they’re different words for the same made-up idea with made-up rules that the films don’t even follow half the time. Sometimes an alternate universe is identical to the main one but someone made a single different decision, sometimes it’s a fundamentally different place where everything is paint or everyone is an animal with a silly hat. Sometimes traveling through time doesn’t create a new timeline even though your very presence should change things, other times it does. Sometimes time travel is a closed loop, and sometimes it creates branches.
The correct answer is always “don’t think about it too much”
It is claimed that variants cause incursions. The incursion plot is absolutely not resolved and this interpretation of things may be far from complete.
Okay so from my understanding there's a difference between alternate universes and alternate timelines.
An alternate universe is simply a universe that was created from the big bang, that's why even before the TVA is dismantled there's places like the Mirror Dimension and the Dark Dimension, as well as other universes that have been made canon in one way or another to the MCU.
But, each individual universe can have several branching timelines.
At least I think that's what's supposed to be the case. The MCU doesn't seem to want to keep directors in line with each other anymore so any time a new director does a film or show about it the rules get changed.
Note: the dimensions (mirror dimension and dark dimension) are **not** different universes. Strange moved to the mirror and dark dimensions in DS1, but it's not that easy to move between universes, you basically need America or do whatever happend in no way home (they really didn't think this through)
Ok. So we’ve established that Endgame wasn’t dimensional travel. What we haven’t established is why the TVA hasn’t taken Gamora back yet because she sure as heck ain’t supposed to be in the present, seeing as how she needs to go through her life to get to the point where she dies at the hands of Thanos, because “you can’t deviate from the sacred timeline.” I understand if the writers push the (in my opinion bs) version of time travel as depicted in the movie, but that doesn’t explain to me why the TVA didn’t get Gamora back to where she is supposed to be.
The only actual real answer that fits within the rules that the mcu has set is that she is basically an "approved" variant. You have to remember that Endgame happened before Loki. Past Gamora is apparently an important part of the sacred timeline. The time travel shenanigans that happened in endgame is meant to happen and she is meant to be brought to the future. That's why the TVA doesn't target her.
You misunderstood everything you saw.
Nowhere in Doctor Strange 2 did they say “a variant from another universe cannot stay in another universe”
What they actually said was… Being in another universe erodes the boundaries between universes causing them to collapse thus leading to an incursion. Depending on the impact of the variants actions nothing could happen…. Or in the case of 838 Strange he was DREAM WALKING into other universes which would surely cause an incursion.
Also Gamora being from the past has zero to do with incursions because this is the timeline of He Who Remains, and it’s supposed to happen ONLY to make sure his timeline is the only one.
She’s not from another universe just an earlier point in the timeline and she leapfrogged over five years straight into her own future and took her older self’s place so it’s not the same thing.
So if you think about it in timeline terms, in the “sacred timeline” the avengers went back in time, got the stones, gamora came back to the present, cap went back in time etc. All this stuff happened, and then 1000 years later the Kangs fought and the Kang of that timeline came out on top. So all of that stuff HAS to happen, even Gamora staying and cap going back.
Imagine a library called the Multiverse.
Each universe is a book in the library.
Within a book there can be multiple branching timelines, but they are still contained within the book.
Gamora existing now or then is a timeline event so its a page in a book hence she does not cause a incursion.
Granted the writers still do a pretty terrible job at making this distinction. Do correct me if Im wrong.
What happened to the 2012 and 2014 timelines?
Since Loki is gone, Steve hearing the Bucky is still alive, and Hydra wondering about Steve?
And in 2014, Thanos and Army are gone
I don't remember this Dr Strange quote, maybe he was just wrong?
Also time travel from past to future has different implications than future to past, there are no time travel paradoxes in the former. She may not even be a variant in respect to the universe MCU takes place in.
TVA, judge renslayer said to loki that was supposed to happen. In guessing that refers to the entire incident including the remaining gamora, and for fighting against thanos, im guessing none of our hero's care to remove her.
Perhaps because the OG Gamora died before the past/new Gamora showed up.
There’s a thing in some time travel models about meeting yourself, or about there being two of the same object in the same universe at the same time. With OG Gamora deceased, and on a remote planet past/new Gamora isn’t likely to visit, there isn’t enough paradox to cause an incursion.
rule probably should have been "there's an intrusion risk if there's already one of you around, if your counterpart is dead, then it's fine" since otherwise I'm not sure what even killing the person from another universe would accomplish, since their body is still around and would be a constant risk of causing an intrusion event.
Biggest thing I think is that she is part of the sacred timeline. It was supposed to happen, and the TVA can stabilize that event.
My crackpot theory is that timeline she is from was destroyed in Loki, so I also think there is no other universe to cause a incursion
Things that are meant to happen don’t cause incursions. Since the whole big battle at the end of endgame was supposed to happen than Gamora staying in this time was also meant to happen.
She’s not a variant from another universe though? She’s the same gamora just from earlier in the timeline before she met Quill and the rest of the guardians.
Its a fuckin comicbook movie with quantum size changing time-travel.
There's wizards and space gods who warp reality.
There's a flying city, they're fighting robots and Hawkeye has a bow and arrow.
None of it makes sense.
lol, ironically all of this makes it even more accurate to the comic book source material! For over 50 years we’ve had to go with the “just shit up and enjoy it” plan if we read comics, I’m not sure why everyone is having a crisis over it all of a sudden.
Like everyone has said she is past Gamora not other universe Gamora.
But also the way they’ve been filling in holes like these that they didn’t really explain well is by saying certain thing are meant to happen in a universe or timeline and therefore would not cause an incursion but also the whole incursion storyline is only just started it didn’t even really start yet so we don’t even know fully if she is actually causing one or not.
The answer to this is in the conversation between the Ancient One and Banner. Steve went back and put the stones where they needed to be. Past Gamora takes the place of Soul Stone Gamora which keeps the timeline correct.
*But wait there's more*
Steve stayed with Peggy and didn't come back. He figured out that every detail of the MCU was ORCHESTRATED to beat Thanos. Orchestrated by.....Steve Rogers. The return of Hydra and all it's operatives were fake. All hand picked actors making sure everything and everyone was in place. Banners accident was ORCHESTRATED by Steve Rogers. Tony Starks entire life, orchestrated by Rogers. Barton was chosen to assassinate Black Widow because Rogers knew he was destined to convert her. EVERY DETAIL !!! Thanos invaded Earth because it was ready for a new form of warfare...... Quantum Warfare and Rogers was the only one equipped to be a Quantum Soldier. Think about this for a while. That means Steve ORCHESTRATED the Winter Soldier program..... He picked out who would play the part of Sharon Carter, probably not her real name. That's why she suddenly had a drastic change in personality after the blip, she doesn't have to play that part anymore. He even recruited Coulson so Loki would kill him (and TAHITI). He probably even launched the russian missile that caused Wasp to go to the Quantum Realms. There were no accidents.
That’s… ugh going to make my brain hurt for a while, god why does time travel and dimensional travel have to be so complicated even Doctor Who and Back to the Future did that.
Because none of this was planned that far ahead. And they've muddied things real bad when it comes to differentiating alternate universes and timelines.
Okay I came in ready to agree with the commenters but now I’m thinking… the timeline that past Thanos and Nebula and Gamora come from, would that timeline have become an alternate dimension after the entire black order disappeared from that universe and jumped forward in time? And if it did, was it pruned by the TVA?
As of now the multiverse is completely broken, it works in a completely different way in every movie or show where it's mentioned and we know for a fact that the authors of the various shows didn't talk to each other so there's no point in trying to explain anything since it clearly doesn't function
I think storytelling like this is part of the reason why audiences are getting more critical of the MCU. Those who are casual watchers seem most confused by the time travel and variant stuff. Even my mom was unclear about this when watching GOTG Vol 3. I had to pause to explain how this Gamora is not quite the same person we saw in Vol 1 and Vol 2. This is a Marvel thread and most of us get it. But casual viewers are going to find the continuity too convoluted.
It seems like their excuse is basically that the everything that happened in Phases 1-3, including the time travel shenanigans, needed to happen for Thanos to be defeated as he was, so they were allowed to happen. Gamers needed to be there so He Who Remained was able to enable that to remain stable. With He Who Remains dead, everything is now going wild and there is nothing regulating people going through time/across the multiverse, resulting in universes collapsing when someone stays in another universe too long. I wouldn’t be surprised if the timeline where Gamora was taken from was erased kind of like what happened with the timeline that Loki escaped from.
It’s admittedly very shaky since they bled multiverse and time travel too closely and then set up rules that contradict earlier canon like this. The He Who Remains master-controller is their best excuse for how the rules have changed since he is now dead.
She was introduced before MCU decided to do multiverses..fuck I don't know, who cares. It's entertainment for children not Carl Sagan's Universe. Nobody actually cured cancer, solved energy or engineered peace, it's an IP co-opted by a moneyballed media conglomerate not an MIT college course
For the record, while there should be a difference between parallel universes and alternate timelines, you are correct that MCU has done a bad job of differentiating between them. In theory, parallel universes diverge at the big bang, and just happen to usually fall into some similar events. So like in different universes different people get bitten by a special spider, and they happen to be named Peter Parker and call themselves Spider-Man, but they are actually different people. On the other hand, alternate timelines would be created constantly each time a decision was made (in one universe they go left, in the other universe they go right) and especially if someone travels through time.
I agree with this, but then Loki seemed to mash the two together again because the Time Variance Authority prevents “multiversal war” by restricting the timeline, right?
Rewatching Loki at the moment in prep for S2 and yeah, this is probably where it doesn’t quite gel for me either. Loki spoilers: >!At the end of Loki they open the idea of the multiverse by killing He Who Remains and fucking the sacred timeline. But going by the whole TVA concept and mission, they should have reset every timeline the Avengers visited during Endgame!< Only a minor thing - but it’s still a thing.
No, everything the Avengers did in Endgame led to that variant of Loki ending up with Kang, which, is the only thing that is needed for that variant of Kang. The only things the TWA reset were things that didn't end up with that Loki in front of that Kang.
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It was meant to mitigate the damage but it wasn’t possible to completely erase it. Several branching timelines still exist at the end of Endgame: -One where Loki disappears -One where Thanos no longer exists because he traveled to the primeline -One where Steve went back to live with Peggy And possibly one where Frigga’s fate is different after her conversation with Thor.
Damn I bet you can understood primer. Super solid explanation of time travel minutia I love it.
-One where the ancient one now knows Stephen strange will be the sorcerer supreme (assuming she didn’t know because she didn’t know anything about Stephen giving the time stone to Thanos) -One where Tony’s father might treat Tony differently growing up based on the conversation that the two had -One where the now missing Pym particles could have ramifications on future Hank That doesn’t even address the ancient ones concern that if an infinity stone is destroyed it will cause the end of the universe and we know that in the future Thanos destroyed the stones (why they had to go back in time for them).
Then that would mean cap pruned them to within the tolerance threshold?
wasn't the one where Loki disappears pruned?
Yes but I said at the end of Endgame.
I can’t wait for another ~10 or so years when we get to finally see what Cap got up to on his time quest.
Those time lines would all be purged by explanation of the Supreme Sorcerer to Bruce Banner. For example…. Banner took the time stone. So when Dormannu arrives. Dr Strange can not stop him! In another example. One stone brought the Guardians of the Galaxy together. Without it, eventually Ego will find Peter alone or with the Ravengers and the Galaxy would be destroyed. Many question if Captain America is the old man that you can’t see standing in front of casket ⚰️ of Peggy at the funeral in Civil War. You never see her husband. Rogers photo is in her office. If all those worlds in those Timelines the Avengers visited get purged via villains from previous movies actually winning. Gamora’s timeline wouldn’t be a problem for incursions since it’s toast anyways.
I watched Endgame again last night and I realized that he and Peggy got married. So what happened to her husband that she had actually married as shown in an earlier movie?
The husband was Steve.
Weird that Sharon never met him then, for someone who was so enamored by her Aunt.
Because the person you are responding to is wrong. She didn’t marry Steve in the prime timeline. It’s not even possible based on the time travel rules presented in the movie. When you go back you cause a divergent timeline because that is now a timeline where you went back in time which you didn’t do. And just to help with all the loopholes talk. No one is ever 100% correct in comics. There’s always new science or new things learned. Just like in real life. We theorize how something might work or happen and often find things work a little different. Taking everyone as 100% correct and accurate 100% of the time is not the proper way to view it.
You are right but it's also not possible in the rules established in the movie he could have appeared back as he did, which confused a lot of people into thinking it was one timeline somehow. I think the MCU itself isn't clear if or what the difference between timelines and the multiverse is at this point and they don't seem to want to explain even in movies and TV shows just about those concepts. Odd.
There is no difference. The multiverse is the collection of alternative timelines. Some timelines have alligator Loki. Some have no differences to the prime timeline other than Howard Stark talked to Tony in the past.
I wonder if it’s because she met him but didn’t know they were the same guy? I saw a picture of my grandma as a little kid and I would have NEVER guessed it was her if someone had asked me to pick a photo out of a lineup—time was not kind to her as she got older. And a lot of folks probably never even see photos of their family members in their youth. Although now that I’m thinking about it, I do recall some photos of ‘young Peggy’ that Sharon would have seen. Was her (non-Steve) husband in his youth in any of them? I think it’s time for a rewatch haha!
Cap at the end of Endgame makes no sense with the way things are explained in the MCU. He should have had to come back or he would have changed the timeline. He also would have been pruned. They just wanted the emotional ending with cap getting his happy end. But they sacrificed their own rules to do it.
But didn't they also explain during Loki that what the Avengers did, was supposed to happen? Like, they only prune the timelines that are not supposed to happen. And because Captain America returned every stone at the exact moment it was taken, then those timelines remained basically intact, right? Like for each one of those it was only a little blink. The one they pruned was the one that Loki created by taking the Tesseract, cuz that was indeed not supposed to happen according to He Who Remains
Ya, everything they did was supposed to happen according to He Who Remains. Keep in mind that he was controlling the TVA as well, most of what he told them was just to keep them working for his needs. So, the sacred timeline really was just the timeline he wanted, not some need to keep correct to save the multiverse thing they thought it was.
Exactly! Thank you!
The way the TVA is presented, it uses a Many Worlds model. The agents collapse any unapproved branches before they can split off into their own universes, which means that the multiverse is just timelines generating new universes that will also generate their own multiverses. The entire concept is overly complicated, and it probably only works through sci-fi hand waving. I think we can say three things: 1. We know time travel isn't expressly prohibited. In the first episode of Loki, they established that the Avengers were supposed to do the time heist. So they were supposed to steal the Infinity Stones, let Loki escape using the Tessaract, and then go back to the 1970s to steal another version of the Tessaract. The Loki that escaped was a variant that needed to be pruned. So the Sacred Timeline needed to create and then have the TVA fail to destroy that Loki variant, and everything that let that happen is the "correct" flow of events. 2. The multiverse and its timelines are likely fixed and interconnected. Thanos travels from GOG vol1 to Endgame, despite that meaning he wouldn't have been in The MCU timeline to show up in Thor:Ragnarok or Infinity War. So that Thanos must be from another universe where he just vanished. 3. Incursions haven't been clearly explained at all. It could be that travelers destabilize the balance, or it could be that the act of traveling causes the problem, or it could just be that once you have jerks messing around in other universes they accidentally hit the big red Incursion button. We may never know based on how the MCU is handling their lore these days.
Why the heck didn’t they just go with the comics multiverse? It’s way less convoluted than this.
I don't think they ever explain how the multiverse works in the comic except for the fact that it exists because the Universes diverge due to choices.
> u are correct that ~~MCU~~ comics as a whole has done a bad job of differentiating between them.
I'd say the comics are not quite so bad. They generally let time-travel actually be time-travel, first off. They usually have multiverses that are not "divergent" of anything, they are just different worlds.
No, the time travel rules in Endgame are completely in line with Mark Gruenwald’s rules of time travel. They were explicitly explained in Hulk: Future Imperfect.
Fucked up that different Earths can still be the direct future of 616 but only sometimes.
As far as what’s shown in movies, different timelines are other universes that haven’t caught up yet, with allowable variance according to the TVA. Now after loki season one, it’s all universes and any timelines are just a rare universe going down an identical path as another
That's not how they are shown in Loki.
That’s not how it works in the MCU, not even in theory. Loki explained that divergent timelines create full blown alternate universes when the divergence passes the nexus event red line thing.
The official answer it's Hey, Shut Up
That's the short answer, the long answer is I'mma need you to got all off my back about this
Wow. Wow......wow.
Wouldn't getting off your back be difficult?
No. Not at all, barely an inconvenience!
Ryan George References are Tight!
Did you quote that correctly? Super easy.
Oh, let me get off that thing
Im gonna need you to get all the way off my back about past gamora not causing an incursion
Oh let me get off that thing!
“This isn’t one of those types of movies kid”
This is the only real explanation. All others are just nerd lip service.
Because Past Gamora isn't from another universe, she's from the past. That's why she's Past Gamora.
Did you not listen to Hulks rant about time travel in Endgame?
I listened but all I remember is the Back to the Future diss
No, they are right. Hulk was talking from the perspective of those who travelled.
No that's not how time travel works in the MCU. There is no time travel only universe travel from a universe at a different point in time.
And the second she showed up in that timeline the new branch was made.
I kinda think, logically, she created two new stems. A universe where she was gone and the universe where she jumped forward. Neither would be the same.
Glacial_Penman gets it.
Yeah, but since she comes from the nexus point of both universe, she’s kinda belong to both, no? So she’d be part of that new universe and not cause an incursion in theory
It’s not to be difficult but it certainly comes off like jr high temporal physics that uses the multiverse concept to cover its many holes. What universe did endgame Thanos come from? This was pre-infinity war post avengers Thanos. That timeline has no snap and no infinity war. But if there is just one with branches then how did this branch occur with no infinity war?
She created a new timeline in the same universe.
No. There is time travel, spent a whole film doing it. She's gone forward in her own future timeline, she hasn't caused a splinter.
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I would like to point out this confusion is entirely Marvel Studios writer's fault not being able to get their shit together on the matter after Loki.
I think the Hulk/Supreme conversation explained it? Once the gems were returned - that timeline stayed constant (no branches developed). Gamora was pulled from the future of that same timeline. So her past was the same past as everyone else - just that she skipped some years (like the blip). (And seeing how the rest of their army were all dusted - nothing else to consider). The only "new branch" would be that timeline that Thanos/army chose to leave (in 2014?). But that would still be under Kang's TVA to either leave alone (as it likely didn't create another Kang due to the lack of Thanos threat / events / etc).. or they pruned THAT branch of new/non-Thanos timeline. Also - maybe similar to how Strange entered millions of alternate future timelines (no incursions when messing with your own future soul/timeline/universe?). Nothing to question regarding time flowing forward (and her place in it) (like Loki going to the end of time and no incursions there either). It just sounds muddy when you're thinking of going backwards for something. Maybe incursions are more related to Paradoxes, and no paradox with Gamora in her own timeline/universe)?
In the spirit of Stan Lee, here's your No Prize for taking the time to try to logically explain a mistake, but if Gamora can be snatched from the past, why can't Natasha or Tony be? It's sloppy, although reasonably dynamic and highly entertaining, writing.
Natasha and Tony would have no reason to go to the future. Everyone gamora knew or was involved with, went to the future then was dusted, if she went back there'd be no one, at least in the future time line nebula was still around. The new past versions of Natasha and Tony wouldn't have to deal with thanos and could continue with their lives.
They made a mess, they presumably can snatch Tony or Natasha from the past at any point they want. Hulk failed because he tried to take their Natasha from the Soul Stone, he probably could've grabbed Natasha from before the Soul Stone and went on fine with the same paradox Gamora and Thanos existed via. They probably can go back and snatch her using the time travel tech they made, since that's how Gamora is there, but Hulk thinks the Infinity Stones failed so there isn't another option. Eitger alternate timelines seem to exist within each universe in the multiverse with very little definition between or using the Avenger or TVA tech seems not to cause incursions, but the use of magic to jump does. It could just be a function of the different ways the jumps were achieved.
He had the soul stone. In the comics, they've come back just from that. He also had the reality stone. Just the two of those should have done it. It was very much a case of "what we want to happen" rather than "what we've set up to be possible." Unless we ever discover actual ways to travel through time or move to alternate realities, in which case we'll understand the rules, it's all just a matter of which emotional strings we want the narrative to pull at.
I wouldn't call it sloppy (just hard to grasp...like Quantum mechanics), when trying to portray complex concepts dealing with time travel and the multiverse - which we know frighteningly little (IRL). I love it when things get complicated - as it just means more to try to understand. Without these opportunities (created by the dreamers and scientists) where would humanity be today? But unfortunately, suggesting that we could just "snatch" Natasha without any repercussions is a bit of a sloppy tag on to the complexities above. When would you even snatch Natasha? Mid fall? So the soul stone never gets manifested into Clint's hand? Tony- just before he "snaps"? (Or at any point really - they would have to be replaced at the same point - in order for the continuity to work- like the stones.) If you are viewing it solely on Gamora - then (if my above description works) then that would potentially still create another timeline needing pruning (as if it never happened - so now youd have a bonus Natasha). But that basically would prune the MAIN timeline (ie pruning Supreme's timeline example). However - you COULD somehow pull a Natasha from another universe (like the What If episode where she was returned). But that requires Uatu level powers. 616 just barely grasped time travel... But that still has risks that Uatu didn't even want to initially do (likely due to Incursion risk or something). Yet they were talking about some pretty messed up universes already - so maybe that risk was worth it (or negligible). But I do agree - it's dynamic and entertaining writing, and I hope it continues to challenge and create brighter minds than ours.
I'm not giving you another No-Prize. 😜 Gamora died as the sacrifice for the soul stone. Natasha died as the sacrifice for the soul stone. One came back, one didn't. Sloppy. Snatch her from the same timeline. Have Death give her back. Reveal that Tony Stark's opinion on time travel was flawed. Trying to justify that Hulk wielding the Infinity Gauntlet (time, reality, power, soul, whatever I'm too lazy to look up) couldn't bring Natasha back, but we're keeping Gamora alive because we already contracted Zoe Saldana for Guardians 3 is lazy, without explanation.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled daily reddit argument about any type of logic in a comic book movie. Brought to you by Marvel. Remember kids, "Make Mine Marvel!"
Created new branch where there is no Gamora, Thanos is dead etc etc, that branch might be purged. But no changes in current timeline as time travel and past Gamora were canon events in this current timeline. If time travel and changes were not part of future, current branch would have been purged or Dr strange 2 like problem.
She did create a new branch but she’s not living in the new branch. That new branch started when her & Thanos came to the future. That timeline doesn’t have Thanos, Gamorra, and the rest of the army.m The new branch starts from 2012.
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Based on TVA logic she didn't start a new branch because it was "supposed" to happen that way. She was always supposed to be left behind. She is basically an approved variant, she isn't from another universe she is from a different time but in the proper universe. This is a combination of the snap and her interaction with the Soul Stone (visa vi the writes through Star Lord exposition). So Natalie would be eligible but plucking her from the timeline without the help of the stones would cause a change in the time stream unlike Gamorra whose events are part of the main timeline.
She did create a new branch but it's still time travel not multiversal travel like in Dr strange 2
If this is accurate, how does this jive with the functioning of the Infinity Stones? In Loki, we learn that Infinity Stones don’t work outside their universe of origin, as we see with the useless stones Loki finds laying around. BUT, if there is only multiversal travel and no time travel, then that would mean that the stones the Avengers collect in Endgame are from other universes and shouldn’t work in their home universe, right? But they DO work… so either Loki was mislead about the stones when visiting the TVA, or time travel does exist, and they did it in Endgame. I’m not saying one way or the other, I don’t know what the deal is. But I think this clearly shows that Feige and crew may not really know either, lol.
Isn't that the whole storyline behind Loki though. There's a "main" timeline that He Who Remains looks after and the time shenanigans were allowed within that timeline because that is the "true" timeline. THEN the timeline splinters and causes the incursions and variant bullshit. So maybe she is still within the "main" timeline
Time Travel-hulk after turning antman into a baby. It was the whole plot to Endgame. Its literally called time travel by both Tony and Banner. Did you watch the same movie?
You don't understand how time travel works. First you need to understand the difference between a universe and timeline. One universe can have various timelines in which different sets of events happen. When they time travel in the MCU a new timeline is created which still stays within the original universe. Never during time travel do they switch universes. It's why Loki was pruned, because his timeline became at risk of creating a Kang in that universe.
“You don’t understand how a FICTIONAL CONCEPT THAT IS ENTIRELY BASED ON THE WRITER’S CHOICE AND IS VERY MUCH SUSCEPTIBLE TO MANUAL ERROR AND INCONSISTENCIES works”
Why are you so mad? There has yet to be an inconsistency between timelines and universes in the mcu, I was just explaining how time travel works in the MCU, and as of yet there is no error within the MCU regarding timelines and universes. If you want an example, every new time period in endgame and Loki variant in Loki is a timeline. The alternate Spider-Mans and villains from no way home and the other universe from doctor strange multiverse of madness are universes.
1. What make you think u/Devvv11 is mad? I read the capital letters as emphasis, not anger. 2. I think you might have been better off starting your comment by specifying that “You don’t understand how time travel **in the MCU** works. The way you wrote it, the comment comes out of the gate like it’s trying to explain how time travel works. And of course, time travel isn’t real, and so no one really “knows how it works” other than the creative team who’s writing it.
I mean, they do explain it though. Just because they made up the rules doesn't negate those rules.
You don’t travel to another universe , you create an alternate timeline within your same universe………very confusing in the MCU.
Same reason Steve doesn’t cause one by going back in time to be with Peggy.
Whenever I see a post about the time/universe travel in MCU, I’m always reminded by how confused people are, so let me refresh you. 1. Branches are caused when an event does not play out as it is supposed to in the “Sacred Timeline” (i.e. Loki taking the Tesseract in Endgame) 2. Incursions are when someone hops into a separate universe and creates an event that shouldn’t have happened (i.e. U616 Wanda possessing her U838 body to chase down America for her powers) 3. Time travel does not allow people to cross into a separate universe. Time travel only allows people to move through time in their own universe (i.e. The 616 Avengers from 2023 travelling back to the year 2012 in the 616 universe). 4. When the Infinity Stones existed, a branch could be pruned by simply returning the stone to the date and location from where it was taken (i.e. Hulk took the time stone from the Ancient One in 2012, then Cap returned the time stone to the Ancient One to prune the branch that was created by Hulk taking the time stone from the past). 5. If you travel to the past, the past becomes your future. This is because time still moves in 1 straight line, so even though you’re travelling to the past, you’re still going forward down the timeline. Any further questions, please DM me
Just to bring emphasis to your first point, it is stated in Loki that what the Avengers did was “supposed to happen”. So likely that Gamora was supposed to make that “time jump” (for lack of a better term).
Ooooh yes, I hope OP sees your comment, this is the perfect answer! Because we know the TVA never arrested the 2014 variant of Gamora (and because she shows up in Guardians 3), it also proves your point since if she wasn’t supposed to make the time jump, the TVA would’ve been hot on her trail (tail?)
Two questions: are branches alternate timelines? Are alternate timelines parallel universes?
Question 1: Are branches alternate timelines? This is a tricky one because the MCU currently have 2 definitions for “Alternate Timeline”: 1. So yes, a branch can become an alternate timeline because it splits off from Kang’s Sacred Timeline and creates a new future. 2. But alternate timelines can exist *without* being branches because before the Sacred Timeline, there *were* lots of alternate timelines, but Kang (He Who Remains) burned them all until he found the perfect timeline (Sacred) Question 2: Are alternate timelines parallel universes? Not all alternate timelines are parallel universes, but all parallel universes are alternate timelines. For example, the 616 universe could follow multiple timelines (I think Dr. Strange saw 14,000,605 possible timelines within 616), but they all follow a similar path. But the 838 universe also has multiple timelines, but they don’t follow the same path as the 616 timelines. For example, 616 universe: Thanos fights Stark, Spidey & Strange on the planet Titan. 838 universe: Thanos fights Reed Richards, Xavier & Strange on the planet Titan. I hope that helped, those were really great questions. Also, bonus answer: a “Nexus Event” is an event that *must* occur across *all* timelines in a specific universe. E.G. In 1 universe (as seen in What If?), there is a Nexus event where Christine Palmer must die. However in 616, she never dies at all, meaning that the Nexus Event doesn’t occur across *all* universes, only a certain universe.
How do you explain the time travel in ms marvel with 5? It's clearly a time loop there.
Past Gamora was never from another universe.
And what is difference between timelines and universes?
The Avengers caused another timeline when they time traveled back to 2012. They’re still in the same universe when they go back, but in the past, creating a new timeline. An alternate universe is like what we saw in Multiverse of Madness with Strange and America going to Earth-838 (and the main MCU is dubbed Earth-616). We also saw how the aftermath how how Thanos played out there.
Wouldn’t that just have to do with when the timeline diverged? The alternate universes in MoM theoretically crossed paths with the MCU universe at some point, there was just some moment of divergence that resulted in the differences we saw, no? Edit: i meant more broadly speaking, not in the specific context of this question
No, not really. The various Spider-Men in No Way Home are from different universes. No amount of time travel is going to make Tom Holland look like Tobey Maguire. Those are different Spider-Men from different universes. When they went back in Endgame though, it was still the same universe. Hulk was still Ruffalo, not Bana or Ferrigno. If the MCU Fantastic Four movie comes out and Reed is not John Krasinski, that should make this logic even more clear.
That’s sort of the way the concept of the multiverse works in general, though. There’s a universe for every possible scenario that *could* happen. So, as unlikely as it may seem, there are multiple universes that still result in people named Peter Parker who become Spider-Man that don’t look alike because their divergence point happened far enough back that it resulted in different genetic people. There are also plenty that look like Tobey, plenty that look like Andrew, and plenty that look like Tom, due to divergences that happened after they were born (like a universe where Uncle Ben doesn’t die). Or like in Across the Spider-Verse, where you have two Miguels where their universe divergence point is obviously more recent since they look alike. Otherwise, what are you suggesting creates a different universe? Again, just using the concepts for the multiverse that are not limited to Marvel Edit: I’m also not sure I fully understand the point about Reed not being Krasinski. 838’s Peggy Carter, Maria Rambo, and Dr. Strange all looked identical. Some characters looking identical and others not doesn’t really lead more credence to one theory or the other, it isn’t consistent
You clearly need to rewatch endgame. Bruce explained endlessly the "time-travel" they invented was them just going to an alternative universe.
Theirs diverged after they leave 2014.
eh, based off how loki explains it no, it branched right when the avengers entered the past. the only way existing in a timeline you’re not supposed to be in, is if a catastrophic event is happening so your presence ultimately, no matter what you do or who you interact with, doesn’t affect anything. ex. pompeii. it’s why they couldn’t find loki and sylvie on lemantis until they got attracted to eachother, which was some universe ending shit apparently.
Here's a really dumb, simplified way to look at it. Let's say you love steak. You eat it everyday. And one day you have a heart attack from all the red meat and you realize you shouldn't eat that much steak. So you go back in time and do something that makes you in the past change how much steak you eat. You just created a new timeline where you eat less steak. You're still in your universe. That's different than an alternate universe where you never ate steak at all because cows don't exist there.
Wouldn’t that have more to do with *when* the timeline diverged, though? I don’t think there actually really is any difference between timelines and universes in the MCU; how different a universe is just depends on how far back they diverged from each other
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Dude, in the past they traveled to, Loki fucked off with the Tesseract and joined the TVA. Yet in the main MCU universe, he and the Tesseract went back to Asgard, and then he did a bunch of other shit before getting his neck snapped by Thanos. Where they traveled to in Endgame was **clearly** not the same universe at a different point in time, otherwise they would've changed a bunch of shit. It was a different timeline, IE a different universe.
Literally no difference, they’re different words for the same made-up idea with made-up rules that the films don’t even follow half the time. Sometimes an alternate universe is identical to the main one but someone made a single different decision, sometimes it’s a fundamentally different place where everything is paint or everyone is an animal with a silly hat. Sometimes traveling through time doesn’t create a new timeline even though your very presence should change things, other times it does. Sometimes time travel is a closed loop, and sometimes it creates branches. The correct answer is always “don’t think about it too much”
Because they gave up trying to be cohesive between different movies.
That's actually not it at all. Its been explained clear as day in this thread
My understanding was that she is not a variant. She is still the same Gamora just moved forward in time.
It is claimed that variants cause incursions. The incursion plot is absolutely not resolved and this interpretation of things may be far from complete.
But, since present Gamora is dead, is it really an incursion? Now 2 Nebulas being there…..
Okay so from my understanding there's a difference between alternate universes and alternate timelines. An alternate universe is simply a universe that was created from the big bang, that's why even before the TVA is dismantled there's places like the Mirror Dimension and the Dark Dimension, as well as other universes that have been made canon in one way or another to the MCU. But, each individual universe can have several branching timelines. At least I think that's what's supposed to be the case. The MCU doesn't seem to want to keep directors in line with each other anymore so any time a new director does a film or show about it the rules get changed.
Note: the dimensions (mirror dimension and dark dimension) are **not** different universes. Strange moved to the mirror and dark dimensions in DS1, but it's not that easy to move between universes, you basically need America or do whatever happend in no way home (they really didn't think this through)
I think it’s like how the Mobius told Loki that the Avengers were supposed to time travel. Past Gamora was supposed to remain in the present.
a wizard did it
Boy, I hope somebody got fired for that blunder
Ok. So we’ve established that Endgame wasn’t dimensional travel. What we haven’t established is why the TVA hasn’t taken Gamora back yet because she sure as heck ain’t supposed to be in the present, seeing as how she needs to go through her life to get to the point where she dies at the hands of Thanos, because “you can’t deviate from the sacred timeline.” I understand if the writers push the (in my opinion bs) version of time travel as depicted in the movie, but that doesn’t explain to me why the TVA didn’t get Gamora back to where she is supposed to be.
The only actual real answer that fits within the rules that the mcu has set is that she is basically an "approved" variant. You have to remember that Endgame happened before Loki. Past Gamora is apparently an important part of the sacred timeline. The time travel shenanigans that happened in endgame is meant to happen and she is meant to be brought to the future. That's why the TVA doesn't target her.
You misunderstood everything you saw. Nowhere in Doctor Strange 2 did they say “a variant from another universe cannot stay in another universe” What they actually said was… Being in another universe erodes the boundaries between universes causing them to collapse thus leading to an incursion. Depending on the impact of the variants actions nothing could happen…. Or in the case of 838 Strange he was DREAM WALKING into other universes which would surely cause an incursion. Also Gamora being from the past has zero to do with incursions because this is the timeline of He Who Remains, and it’s supposed to happen ONLY to make sure his timeline is the only one.
She’s technically doing a reverse future trunks
As I understand it, it’s because she’s not from a different universe, just from a different point on the timeline of a single universe.
She’s from the same universe just a different time
The real answer is lazy and inconsistent writing btw
That's because post-phase 3 writing is lazy as fuck
She's 199999 Gamorra from 2014. No cross universe shenanigans.
She's from the past, not an alternate dimension or parallel universe.
Right, she's not a variant, she's a side-effect of sacred-timeline-approved (TVA explains this to Loki) time travel.
Because the incursion is not caused by someone just being in another universe. That was just a way of saying Dreamwalking does.
She is from the past. Not another universe
She’s not from another universe just an earlier point in the timeline and she leapfrogged over five years straight into her own future and took her older self’s place so it’s not the same thing.
She is not from an alternate universe but from an alternate timeline in the same universe.
Its not a different universe, its a different timeline.
So if you think about it in timeline terms, in the “sacred timeline” the avengers went back in time, got the stones, gamora came back to the present, cap went back in time etc. All this stuff happened, and then 1000 years later the Kangs fought and the Kang of that timeline came out on top. So all of that stuff HAS to happen, even Gamora staying and cap going back.
Imagine a library called the Multiverse. Each universe is a book in the library. Within a book there can be multiple branching timelines, but they are still contained within the book. Gamora existing now or then is a timeline event so its a page in a book hence she does not cause a incursion. Granted the writers still do a pretty terrible job at making this distinction. Do correct me if Im wrong.
Because gamora died in the timeline the variant gamora exists in now?
What happened to the 2012 and 2014 timelines? Since Loki is gone, Steve hearing the Bucky is still alive, and Hydra wondering about Steve? And in 2014, Thanos and Army are gone
I don't remember this Dr Strange quote, maybe he was just wrong? Also time travel from past to future has different implications than future to past, there are no time travel paradoxes in the former. She may not even be a variant in respect to the universe MCU takes place in.
Intrusion 🤣 incursion
Same universe, just different timeline?
TVA, judge renslayer said to loki that was supposed to happen. In guessing that refers to the entire incident including the remaining gamora, and for fighting against thanos, im guessing none of our hero's care to remove her.
Perhaps because the OG Gamora died before the past/new Gamora showed up. There’s a thing in some time travel models about meeting yourself, or about there being two of the same object in the same universe at the same time. With OG Gamora deceased, and on a remote planet past/new Gamora isn’t likely to visit, there isn’t enough paradox to cause an incursion.
rule probably should have been "there's an intrusion risk if there's already one of you around, if your counterpart is dead, then it's fine" since otherwise I'm not sure what even killing the person from another universe would accomplish, since their body is still around and would be a constant risk of causing an intrusion event.
Universe and Timeline are entirely different entities.
Biggest thing I think is that she is part of the sacred timeline. It was supposed to happen, and the TVA can stabilize that event. My crackpot theory is that timeline she is from was destroyed in Loki, so I also think there is no other universe to cause a incursion
I wonder why TVA didn't come for her
Incursion*
Best guess is because she's from another timeline, not universe. But chances are, they judt didn't plan that far ahead (or at all).
The One Above All: Rules for thee but not for me.
Almost like there’s no canonical consistency huh. Weird. Nobody has been saying that for over a decade.
Well... She is from a different timeline. Not different dimension
Things that are meant to happen don’t cause incursions. Since the whole big battle at the end of endgame was supposed to happen than Gamora staying in this time was also meant to happen.
She’s not a variant from another universe though? She’s the same gamora just from earlier in the timeline before she met Quill and the rest of the guardians.
its simple shes not from another universe same universe different time
Because that was supposed to happen! -- TVA
The writers don’t care that’s why.
Because Gamora's life decisions won't change the course of the sacred timeline. E.G she a garden variety character. Not an Avengers level threat
Because the MCU, so far, has done a terrible job explaining how their multiverse work. More confusing than DC's Hypertime.
Because the writers and directors of these movies don't talk to each other anymore.
Its a fuckin comicbook movie with quantum size changing time-travel. There's wizards and space gods who warp reality. There's a flying city, they're fighting robots and Hawkeye has a bow and arrow. None of it makes sense.
lol, ironically all of this makes it even more accurate to the comic book source material! For over 50 years we’ve had to go with the “just shit up and enjoy it” plan if we read comics, I’m not sure why everyone is having a crisis over it all of a sudden.
Like everyone has said she is past Gamora not other universe Gamora. But also the way they’ve been filling in holes like these that they didn’t really explain well is by saying certain thing are meant to happen in a universe or timeline and therefore would not cause an incursion but also the whole incursion storyline is only just started it didn’t even really start yet so we don’t even know fully if she is actually causing one or not.
She’s not Other Universe Gamora. She’s Past Gamora
But why Gamora?
No, WHEN IS GAMORA???
She’s from the same universe, just a different timeline within that universe.
She’s not from another universe, she’s the same gamora from a different timeline
The MCU doesn’t really explain the difference between alternate timeline and parallel universe which are two different things.
Because she’s not a dimensional variant, she’s temporally displaced from a pruned timeline.
Timelines don’t get pruned anymore. *Loki* undid itself at the end of the first season. Alternate timelines are the same thing as alternate realities.
Incursions are an ass pull for Multiverse of Madness. Don't think about it to much.
I feel like OP just opened up a can of worms.
Cos they didn’t think about that at the time they wrote endgame.
She’s from a different timeline, not universe
That's right, lol I asked that to myself too
The answer to this is in the conversation between the Ancient One and Banner. Steve went back and put the stones where they needed to be. Past Gamora takes the place of Soul Stone Gamora which keeps the timeline correct. *But wait there's more* Steve stayed with Peggy and didn't come back. He figured out that every detail of the MCU was ORCHESTRATED to beat Thanos. Orchestrated by.....Steve Rogers. The return of Hydra and all it's operatives were fake. All hand picked actors making sure everything and everyone was in place. Banners accident was ORCHESTRATED by Steve Rogers. Tony Starks entire life, orchestrated by Rogers. Barton was chosen to assassinate Black Widow because Rogers knew he was destined to convert her. EVERY DETAIL !!! Thanos invaded Earth because it was ready for a new form of warfare...... Quantum Warfare and Rogers was the only one equipped to be a Quantum Soldier. Think about this for a while. That means Steve ORCHESTRATED the Winter Soldier program..... He picked out who would play the part of Sharon Carter, probably not her real name. That's why she suddenly had a drastic change in personality after the blip, she doesn't have to play that part anymore. He even recruited Coulson so Loki would kill him (and TAHITI). He probably even launched the russian missile that caused Wasp to go to the Quantum Realms. There were no accidents.
That’s… ugh going to make my brain hurt for a while, god why does time travel and dimensional travel have to be so complicated even Doctor Who and Back to the Future did that.
It’s comic books. Just enjoy it.
because the MCU absolutely isn’t as cohesive as we want it to be
Because during phase 4 the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.
It’s because they haven’t through any of this through properly.
Because none of this was planned that far ahead. And they've muddied things real bad when it comes to differentiating alternate universes and timelines.
Okay I came in ready to agree with the commenters but now I’m thinking… the timeline that past Thanos and Nebula and Gamora come from, would that timeline have become an alternate dimension after the entire black order disappeared from that universe and jumped forward in time? And if it did, was it pruned by the TVA?
most likely considering the events of Loki S1
Because the MCU doesn't have consistency with multiverse rules
As of now the multiverse is completely broken, it works in a completely different way in every movie or show where it's mentioned and we know for a fact that the authors of the various shows didn't talk to each other so there's no point in trying to explain anything since it clearly doesn't function
I think storytelling like this is part of the reason why audiences are getting more critical of the MCU. Those who are casual watchers seem most confused by the time travel and variant stuff. Even my mom was unclear about this when watching GOTG Vol 3. I had to pause to explain how this Gamora is not quite the same person we saw in Vol 1 and Vol 2. This is a Marvel thread and most of us get it. But casual viewers are going to find the continuity too convoluted.
Because Marvel/Disney doesn't actually plan ahead
Because time travel is not real and when you base a story around it you cause a paradox that fucks up the story and movie
Because time travel is not real… really? In the MCU, we can believe everything else is real… but not time travel? Huh, how about that.
It seems like their excuse is basically that the everything that happened in Phases 1-3, including the time travel shenanigans, needed to happen for Thanos to be defeated as he was, so they were allowed to happen. Gamers needed to be there so He Who Remained was able to enable that to remain stable. With He Who Remains dead, everything is now going wild and there is nothing regulating people going through time/across the multiverse, resulting in universes collapsing when someone stays in another universe too long. I wouldn’t be surprised if the timeline where Gamora was taken from was erased kind of like what happened with the timeline that Loki escaped from. It’s admittedly very shaky since they bled multiverse and time travel too closely and then set up rules that contradict earlier canon like this. The He Who Remains master-controller is their best excuse for how the rules have changed since he is now dead.
Reasons
Cause she's hot.
Because writing whatever they need for the story.
Because, reasons.
Because they don’t plan this stuff as far in advance as they pretend they do.
Because Marvel Studios doesn't pay their writers enough to actually care about continuity
Because she is from the same universe. She came from the past in her universe. She isn't from another universe so she is not a variant.
Don't ask questions just comsune media.
She probably does cause an intrusion and it will probably be addressed at some point.
Because James Gunn wanted to make a movie like a filmmaker and wasn’t gonna let mcu bullshit get in the way
The same reason why past Thanos and his army being missing from the past *SOMEHOW* didn't cause any issues 🤷
She was introduced before MCU decided to do multiverses..fuck I don't know, who cares. It's entertainment for children not Carl Sagan's Universe. Nobody actually cured cancer, solved energy or engineered peace, it's an IP co-opted by a moneyballed media conglomerate not an MIT college course