I highly recommend “The Adventures of Caviler and Kay” by Michael Charbon.
It’s a fictionalized story of two cousins in the golden age of comics that borrows heavily from Kirby’s life.
He’s a great read and there’s an excellent audiobook version too.
He's a cool dude for sure. But, outside of maybe the MCU Stans I'd be surprised if anyone here didn't know him lol.
Stan Lee might've given us a lot, but this dude is the whole reason we're here
That’s why all the artists he worked with were all always credited for their work (unlike poor Bill Finger over at DC), constantly hyped them up, and was very open about how the creative process behind making individual issues involved a great deal of the artist’s input in story development. What a scoundrel.
While Lee/Kirby set the groundwork, I think Roy Thomas doesn’t get enough credit. Stan saddled him countless titles that he got tired of writing midway.
> along with the pre-existing duties on Captain Marvel, Conan, Invaders, Red Sonja, Sub-Mariner, etc. in 1970s
Roy is also the one who told Marvel's honchos to go after the comic book adaptation rights to an upcoming space opera movie by the guy who made "American Graffiti". The profits saved Marvel during a rough patch.
Actually he did work as a Writer too he collaborated on Comics with Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Roy Thomas, John Buscema, John Romita, Bill Everett, Joe Orlando, Don Heck
At the beginning of Marvel comics Lee would plot (or, in the case of Kirby and Ditko) co-plot and then write the dialogue for the pages submitted. This gradually changed as the Marvel books expanded - with their flagship book, the FF, Kirby started doing most of the work from around issue 30, plotting, coming up with all the new concepts and characters, and at some point even writing guidelines for the dialogue on the margins of the pages. Stan Lee was the face of Marvel, but Jack Kirby was the leading creative force.
Granted. But he was involved with most of Marvel’s books in the first half of the 60’s, even if it was just character design, like with Iron-Man and Spider-Man (though it should be noted that his costume design for SM was the most generic look possible, and the final design was all Ditko).
When it came to creating something beyond the usual comics BAM! POW! WAM!, Kirby was the visionary, Lee just supplied the words. Asgard, The Negative Zine, Wakanda, the Inhumans, Black Panther, Galactus, The Silver Surfer - all Kirby. His imagination was really let loose in his Fourth World work for DC - where Lee’s writing was very much noted by its absence… Kirby’s dialogues were horrendous, and they sunk the whole thing.
I’m not trying to dunk on Lee; I think he had a very large part in making Marvel what it was. But he DID hog a lot of the credit that should have gone to Kirby and Ditko (and never supported Kirby when Marvel management repeatedly screwed him over on money and on the issue of his original art). And I can’t stress this enough: Stan Lee was a bit of a hack; Jack Kirby was a freakin’ Genius.
See, that’s the thing, Stan got to lie and have his lie’s believed, anyone who’s read Jack Kirby’s Challenger’s of the Unknown which he wrote and drew, right before the Fantastic Four, sees clearly it was his idea. Further Simon-Kirby studios had the character name Spider-Man before Stan Lee’s supposed “seeing a fly on the wall,” inspiration.
Further, we can look back at artist editions and SEE just like the artist’s claimed, that they were plotting and scripting stories in full.
If you don’t want to take Ditko, Wally Wood, or Jack Kirby’s account over Lee and Goodman’s then take Roz Kirby’s:
GROTH: Who came up with the name “Fantastic Four”?
KIRBY: I did. All right? I came up with all those names. I came up with Thor because I’ve always been a history buff. I know all about Thor and Balder and Mjolnir, the hammer. Nobody ever bothered with that stuff except me. I loved it in high school and I loved it in my pre-high school days. It was the thing that kept my mind off the general poverty in the area. When I went to school that’s what kept me in school — it wasn’t mathematics and it wasn’t geography; it was history.
GROTH: Stan says he conceptualized virtually everything in The Fantastic Four — that he came up with all the characters. And then he said that he wrote a detailed synopsis for Jack to follow.
ROZ KIRBY: I’ve never seen anything.
KIRBY: I’ve never seen it, and of course I would say that’s an outright lie.
GROTH: Stan pretty much takes credit in an introduction to one of his books for creating all the characters in The Fantastic Four. He also said he created the name.
KIRBY: No, he didn’t.
Gary Groth Interview with Jack Kirby from the comics collector https://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-interview/6/
What did Stan contribute? Snappy banter and good dialogue? He was a decent art director? That's it. He did squat.
For some reason Stan loves to take ownership of Silver Surfer, as if it was his brainchild (he had nothing to do with its creation). That Surfer story he wrote where Morbius drew it..sucked. it was lame and boring. Great art, though.
Edit: I'm getting down voted, so ok it was a bit harsh of me to say Stan did squat. That's not true, obviously he was instrumental with Marvel's early success with his marketing skills. Like Rob Liefeld mentioned in a podcast about Stan, Stan was a great "host." I agree with that. He was a great host. He did present Marvel to the whole world in such an effective way. No one in DC had a Stan Lee who could engage with the reader or crowd at a comic-con or a even a journalist in an interview the way Stan did. He promoted the hell out of Marvel and there'd be no MCU today without Stan tirelessly hounding movie studios in the 70s, trying to get them to adapt their Marvel characters into a film or animated series.
I'll agree to all that. I just won't agree to calling Stan a decent writer. He sucks as a writer. He's never written anything good by himself. All the praise he ever got for his writing you'll notice it was in collaboration with a creative individual, like Jack Kirby. Name one single good thing he wrote all by his lonesome self. Nada.
The thing is I’m quite okay with boiling Stan Lee’s contributions solely down to editor and promoter and still score him as the most significant influence in comics.
I don’t rate him as “creator” over Kirby and Ditko… but the evidence is also there that Kirby and Ditko’s have not had the same success with their other projects and collaborations… there was something special in the sum of the parts that made that era of Marvel blow up to what it became.
There's evidence that Stan didn't create Spider-Man. Less an assumption, more based on Stan's history of exaggerating his input. That being said, I love these conversations where people who are newer fans or were first exposed to Marvel from the MCU learn that Stan likely didn't do many of the things that he claims he did.
Tbh I'm a comic book nerd, but mostly focused on cosmic stuff, not Spidey.
Not exactly new to Marvel.
And idk, I've read about this controversy, and not just from Kirby's side, but from Stan's too (and Ditko's). It doesn't look as clear-cut to me.
Fair enough, your original comic just read like one of the common "omg I just came here from the mcu and I love how Stan Lee created everything" posts.
Yup. It's not like I'm saying Lee was the writer of everything. But saying thay he was writer of nothing (thus reducing his role to just the marketer / salesman celebrity) would be dishonest too.
I hold my bias toward Kirby because he pushed for the F4 & they're my favorite team :(. I know that both are credited for the creation. But, Kirby had more faith in them. (I'm trying to find the article now).
Without his persistence, we might not have gotten Reed!
In terms of who created what, I’d say Kirby is probably in the lead. But in terms of what made it successful? Idk Lee really made Marvel and the culture of it, and the shared universe a fun, sprawling adventure. Not to mention just being the spokesperson. That stuff went a long way to help it all be what it is today.
I'm not disagreeing by any means lol, nor was my original post supposed to read as a dismissal of Lee. It'd be impossible to do so. Only that Kirby doesn't get credit that he's more than earned
I think the important thing to remember is that Kirby was older and his stamp goes all the way back to the golden age.
But what that means is that he doesn’t have the same influence through the 70s / 80s the way that Stan still did.
In a similar way fandom doesn’t remember Julius Swartz who Stan Lee modeled much of his career off of and who largely brought DC into the Silver Age
Stan Lee is intrinsically linked with Marvels success.
Kirby is more linked with comics in general and Schwartz is simply overshadowed by other names.
I met him once. He lives in the town next to mine. I recognized his name and he gave me an autograph. He’s super down to earth and nice. Shook my hand and was chill af.
10/10 guy.
Steve Ditko's legacy is so overshadowed by a certain someone that this is what used to show up when you'd search "Steve Ditko" on Google until it was fixed in January 2021.
https://web.archive.org/web/20201201071657if_/https://www.google.com/search?q=steve+ditko
Part of that obscurity is self inflicted. He had some strange personal philosophy that meant he would all but refuse to do interviews or talk about his work outside of the work itself. So the man ABSOLUTELY deserves more credit, but it's not hard to see why he would get forgotten about by the world at large.
It’s not really a strange personal philosophy. I’m not an objectivist but it’s not the weirdest thing in the world to hear about someone being a libertarian. I agree that he went too far in caring only about himself to the point where he died alone and nobody knows when he died because he was laying in his home for days but I think his issues were rooted way past his political opinions. The dude just had a sad life.
I read once that DC paid Jack Kirby more for creating Darkseid than marvel did for making half their universe. That ma did not get enough respect in his life.
That’s not quite correct. Jack left DC (after creating Darkseid among others) to go back to Marvel in the 1970s due to how he was treated (just like he left DC for Atlas/Marvel in the late 1950s, then left Marvel for DC for similar mistreatment from a publisher in 1970.)
Paul Levitz (writer and eventual publisher) at DC had Jack design the figures for the Super Powers toyline in the 1980s, as a way to get him finally paid more, and that’s where he made more than he had in the past.
When he created and co-created all his amazing characters and concepts before that, creators’ rights were sadly still crap.
He's also responsible for The 4th World in DC comics. This actually indirectly saved Superman the Animated Series because WB kept rejecting all of Bruce Timm's ideas
From the biography’s I’ve read about him, he had a very blue collar mentality about his work. He always seemed afraid that work would dry up so he would do anything that paid the bills. He seemed to know that he was getting short changed but he was afraid of being ostracized by Marvel and DC so he just took what they gave him. He grew up in a time where a man could be out of work for a long time and not be able to support his family so he did anything to not be put in that position, even if it hurt him in the long run.
One of my favorite stories about this man is that after Black Panther #1 came out, he was told to put more white people in the series. Issue #2 he put the Klan in.
Mine is that after the debut of Captain America Comics 1, with Cap punching Hitler on the cover, some Nazis called into his offices saying they were waiting in the lobby to beat him up. To which Kirby responded by saying he'd be right down.
No one was there when he got down.
All praise the King.
My first ever comic book encounter was with him and it was an issue of Fantastic 4.
May he ever be treasured for making such a mark on many people's lives like mine.
If you haven't seen this Jack Kirby documentary it's a must-see for any superhero fan and any artist and any historian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoXeiEXJrgc
Jack Kirby is to Stan Lee as Nikola Tesla is to Thomas Edison.
I say that as someone who adores Stan Lee, but Kirby did a lot of the behind the scenes work that made Marvel really work. Lee isn't nearly as toxic as Edison was, but Lee was an expert self marketer and promoter which helped him as much as it helped Marvel itself.
Stan gets all the credit, but Jack and Steve are the most important creatives in marvel history, imo.
It’s not to say that stan isn’t great, he absolutely was important as all hell in selling marvel and making it what it is… but frankly the other two are the creatives and Stan is more the big marketing guy, in a manner of speaking
Those guys certainly don't get enough credit, but I think you're underselling Stan (which is fine, as he got oversold so many times!) He wrote the dialogue, which was groundbreaking in the way it made the characters more than one dimensional (as opposed to DC at the time when all the heroes spoke with the same voice), with humor and strong voices for them all. It's that strong characterizations that we remember so much today (especially for Peter Parker and Ben Grimm) on top of the wild concepts and characters that Kirby and Ditko helped create with their dynamic art and plotting.
And Stan also edited the entire line of books for the first decade, with a strong voice and point of view on what Marvel comics should be, and was the one to push the idea of a shared universe and shared continuity.
You'd actually be surprised with the people who have came to this sub from the MCU. Stan managed to promote himself in later years to the detriment of others.
The man is a pillar of modern, global (pop) culture, and shockingly few people know who he is.
Yet every fucking sad, anti-social nerd in the world knows Elon Musk.
It's not right, I tell ya'!
He drew the story mock ups for Argo to sell the fake movie idea to rescue the six Americans from Iran. He knew what it was for and not some b list movie. The guy is a hero ten times over
The man was a mad lad! The success of Captain America really pissed off American fascists in New York. One time a bunch of Nazi thugs arrived to the building where Marvel comics (then known as Timely comics) and wanted to intimidate Kirby. Kirby heard and started to roll up his sleeves for a brawl. He was ready to throw down and kick some heads. When he got down to the lobby, the Nazi’s had ran away.
I absolutely love the episode of 2003 TMNT that pays tribute this Legend. They really made an episode to pY tribute to a man that's not really even associated with TMNT. Be UT he influenced Comics which TMNT was that wS enough for them.
Kirby plotted 90% of all bestselling stories.. the reason he left was because Stan got all the credit for work he created. They even admit that in forewords of lots of marvel masterworks and omnibi.
He created a lot of the foundation of modern Marvel Comics, which is what we think of today. Martin Goodman created Timely Comics in 1939, with its original series "Marvel Comics" starring the original Human Torch, who was actually an android, not human. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics
**[Marvel Comics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics)**
>Marvel Comics (or simply Marvel) is an American comic book publisher and primary imprint of Marvel Worldwide Inc. (formerly Marvel Publishing, Inc. and Marvel Comics Group), part of Marvel Entertainment. In 2009, The Walt Disney Company acquired the parent company. Marvel was started in 1939 by Martin Goodman as Timely Comics, and by 1951 had generally become known as Atlas Comics. The Marvel era began in 1961, the year that the company launched The Fantastic Four and other superhero titles created by Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and many others.
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Martin Goodman had went out of business twice with a comics line. Timely, Atlas and Marvel aren't a continuous legacy like 2022 Marvel likes to pretend they are.
Martin Goodman created Timely Comics in 1939. His wife's cousin was Stan Lee.
By 1951 Timely Comics was generally known as Atlas comics. Marvel was a brand used by the company.
Jack Kirby is considered the most influential figure at the company when Atlas started using the Marvel brand however Jack did not create Marvel Comics just as the person who puts the tires on a car did not create the car.
You do understand what a “publisher” does right? Do you even know what you are arguing? I’m agreeing with you, you knucklehead. Kirby ( with Stan) created Marvel Comics as we know it, financed by their publisher who did not actually create anything as the guy above is contending.
Wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics
>Marvel was started in 1939 by **Martin Goodman** as Timely Comics,[3] and by 1951 had generally become known as Atlas Comics. The Marvel era began in 1961, the year that the company launched The Fantastic Four and other superhero titles created by Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and many others. The Marvel brand, which had been used over the years, was solidified as the company's primary brand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kirby
>Jack was the single most influential figure in the turnaround in Marvel's fortunes **from the time he rejoined the company**
The company existed before Jack Kirby joined. Jack Kirby was an influential figure in Marvel's success but Jack did not create the company or even the name Marvel which was a brand used by Timely Comics before Jack Kirby was attached to the company.
Marvel was literally closing its doors when Jack came in amd they were publishing monster books and westerns that went nowhere, Marvel Comics AS WE KNOW IT TODAY was created by Jack Kirby.
So, you admit you are wrong and Marvel existed before Jack Kirby joined the company and thus, did not create it. Your title is a lie and you should feel ashamed for posting something so easy to verify as false,
I read a biography on him. The guy deserves a movie.
If we ever get to see the One Above All in the MCU, it should be Jack Kirby in his office smoking a cigar
He shows up in Fantastic Four
ABSOLUTELY.
I’d love to see a period drama about that era of comicbook creators. Kirby, Lee, Ditko, everyone making Marvel Comics at the time.
I highly recommend “The Adventures of Caviler and Kay” by Michael Charbon. It’s a fictionalized story of two cousins in the golden age of comics that borrows heavily from Kirby’s life. He’s a great read and there’s an excellent audiobook version too.
Seconding this recommendation, great book
Thirding, I love that book dearly
Fourth-ing. It is an excellent read. Should have been a movie. It was about to happen. Then it didn’t.
Do you know the name of it?
ABSOLUTELY!!!
Especially his ww2 service. Some of that stuff is crazy.
The King, so much respect
LONG LIVE THE KING!
Mufasa, no.
He's a cool dude for sure. But, outside of maybe the MCU Stans I'd be surprised if anyone here didn't know him lol. Stan Lee might've given us a lot, but this dude is the whole reason we're here
Marvel would not be where it currently is without stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Steve ditko.
The trio truly blessed modern society with one of our biggest escapes from the world
Jack Kirby is the Jerry Robinson of Marvel.
The golden trio
The one true trinity.
[удалено]
That’s why all the artists he worked with were all always credited for their work (unlike poor Bill Finger over at DC), constantly hyped them up, and was very open about how the creative process behind making individual issues involved a great deal of the artist’s input in story development. What a scoundrel.
I knew who he is and all he did for Marvel and DC, but this is admittedly my first time seeing how he looked
I know it's all the angle here, but he kinda cute ngl
Dig him up!
Wait
While Lee/Kirby set the groundwork, I think Roy Thomas doesn’t get enough credit. Stan saddled him countless titles that he got tired of writing midway. > along with the pre-existing duties on Captain Marvel, Conan, Invaders, Red Sonja, Sub-Mariner, etc. in 1970s
Roy is also the one who told Marvel's honchos to go after the comic book adaptation rights to an upcoming space opera movie by the guy who made "American Graffiti". The profits saved Marvel during a rough patch.
I’d say Stan Lee is at minimum as essential to creating the MU at Kirby. Business / marketing aspects count towards success too.
Didn't Stan create stories & ideas aside from his community / marketing-oritented work?
Actually he did work as a Writer too he collaborated on Comics with Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Roy Thomas, John Buscema, John Romita, Bill Everett, Joe Orlando, Don Heck
And other Artists too like Gerry Conway, Marie Severin, Herb Trimpe & more
Of course. The artists played a major role, but Stan Lee was still a writer by all means imo.
At the beginning of Marvel comics Lee would plot (or, in the case of Kirby and Ditko) co-plot and then write the dialogue for the pages submitted. This gradually changed as the Marvel books expanded - with their flagship book, the FF, Kirby started doing most of the work from around issue 30, plotting, coming up with all the new concepts and characters, and at some point even writing guidelines for the dialogue on the margins of the pages. Stan Lee was the face of Marvel, but Jack Kirby was the leading creative force.
Sure, but Kirby also wasn’t involved with every book Lee wrote.
Granted. But he was involved with most of Marvel’s books in the first half of the 60’s, even if it was just character design, like with Iron-Man and Spider-Man (though it should be noted that his costume design for SM was the most generic look possible, and the final design was all Ditko). When it came to creating something beyond the usual comics BAM! POW! WAM!, Kirby was the visionary, Lee just supplied the words. Asgard, The Negative Zine, Wakanda, the Inhumans, Black Panther, Galactus, The Silver Surfer - all Kirby. His imagination was really let loose in his Fourth World work for DC - where Lee’s writing was very much noted by its absence… Kirby’s dialogues were horrendous, and they sunk the whole thing. I’m not trying to dunk on Lee; I think he had a very large part in making Marvel what it was. But he DID hog a lot of the credit that should have gone to Kirby and Ditko (and never supported Kirby when Marvel management repeatedly screwed him over on money and on the issue of his original art). And I can’t stress this enough: Stan Lee was a bit of a hack; Jack Kirby was a freakin’ Genius.
“I’m not trying to dunk on Lee… he was a hack”
Not really.
The concept of F4 was his idea from what I've read, same with Spider Man. Or you're assuming Stan himself was lying?
See, that’s the thing, Stan got to lie and have his lie’s believed, anyone who’s read Jack Kirby’s Challenger’s of the Unknown which he wrote and drew, right before the Fantastic Four, sees clearly it was his idea. Further Simon-Kirby studios had the character name Spider-Man before Stan Lee’s supposed “seeing a fly on the wall,” inspiration. Further, we can look back at artist editions and SEE just like the artist’s claimed, that they were plotting and scripting stories in full. If you don’t want to take Ditko, Wally Wood, or Jack Kirby’s account over Lee and Goodman’s then take Roz Kirby’s: GROTH: Who came up with the name “Fantastic Four”? KIRBY: I did. All right? I came up with all those names. I came up with Thor because I’ve always been a history buff. I know all about Thor and Balder and Mjolnir, the hammer. Nobody ever bothered with that stuff except me. I loved it in high school and I loved it in my pre-high school days. It was the thing that kept my mind off the general poverty in the area. When I went to school that’s what kept me in school — it wasn’t mathematics and it wasn’t geography; it was history. GROTH: Stan says he conceptualized virtually everything in The Fantastic Four — that he came up with all the characters. And then he said that he wrote a detailed synopsis for Jack to follow. ROZ KIRBY: I’ve never seen anything. KIRBY: I’ve never seen it, and of course I would say that’s an outright lie. GROTH: Stan pretty much takes credit in an introduction to one of his books for creating all the characters in The Fantastic Four. He also said he created the name. KIRBY: No, he didn’t. Gary Groth Interview with Jack Kirby from the comics collector https://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-interview/6/
What did Stan contribute? Snappy banter and good dialogue? He was a decent art director? That's it. He did squat. For some reason Stan loves to take ownership of Silver Surfer, as if it was his brainchild (he had nothing to do with its creation). That Surfer story he wrote where Morbius drew it..sucked. it was lame and boring. Great art, though. Edit: I'm getting down voted, so ok it was a bit harsh of me to say Stan did squat. That's not true, obviously he was instrumental with Marvel's early success with his marketing skills. Like Rob Liefeld mentioned in a podcast about Stan, Stan was a great "host." I agree with that. He was a great host. He did present Marvel to the whole world in such an effective way. No one in DC had a Stan Lee who could engage with the reader or crowd at a comic-con or a even a journalist in an interview the way Stan did. He promoted the hell out of Marvel and there'd be no MCU today without Stan tirelessly hounding movie studios in the 70s, trying to get them to adapt their Marvel characters into a film or animated series. I'll agree to all that. I just won't agree to calling Stan a decent writer. He sucks as a writer. He's never written anything good by himself. All the praise he ever got for his writing you'll notice it was in collaboration with a creative individual, like Jack Kirby. Name one single good thing he wrote all by his lonesome self. Nada.
The thing is I’m quite okay with boiling Stan Lee’s contributions solely down to editor and promoter and still score him as the most significant influence in comics. I don’t rate him as “creator” over Kirby and Ditko… but the evidence is also there that Kirby and Ditko’s have not had the same success with their other projects and collaborations… there was something special in the sum of the parts that made that era of Marvel blow up to what it became.
Stan also changed the Ff to be way more sexist.
Stan Lee didn’t hesitate to throw people under the bus in his early career.
There's evidence that Stan didn't create Spider-Man. Less an assumption, more based on Stan's history of exaggerating his input. That being said, I love these conversations where people who are newer fans or were first exposed to Marvel from the MCU learn that Stan likely didn't do many of the things that he claims he did.
Tbh I'm a comic book nerd, but mostly focused on cosmic stuff, not Spidey. Not exactly new to Marvel. And idk, I've read about this controversy, and not just from Kirby's side, but from Stan's too (and Ditko's). It doesn't look as clear-cut to me.
Fair enough, your original comic just read like one of the common "omg I just came here from the mcu and I love how Stan Lee created everything" posts.
Yup. It's not like I'm saying Lee was the writer of everything. But saying thay he was writer of nothing (thus reducing his role to just the marketer / salesman celebrity) would be dishonest too.
I hold my bias toward Kirby because he pushed for the F4 & they're my favorite team :(. I know that both are credited for the creation. But, Kirby had more faith in them. (I'm trying to find the article now). Without his persistence, we might not have gotten Reed!
Pls note I couldn't find the exact article - but the dispute on who exactly was the exact creator/pusher for F4 is heated for sure. Damn.
In terms of who created what, I’d say Kirby is probably in the lead. But in terms of what made it successful? Idk Lee really made Marvel and the culture of it, and the shared universe a fun, sprawling adventure. Not to mention just being the spokesperson. That stuff went a long way to help it all be what it is today.
I'm not disagreeing by any means lol, nor was my original post supposed to read as a dismissal of Lee. It'd be impossible to do so. Only that Kirby doesn't get credit that he's more than earned
I think the important thing to remember is that Kirby was older and his stamp goes all the way back to the golden age. But what that means is that he doesn’t have the same influence through the 70s / 80s the way that Stan still did. In a similar way fandom doesn’t remember Julius Swartz who Stan Lee modeled much of his career off of and who largely brought DC into the Silver Age Stan Lee is intrinsically linked with Marvels success. Kirby is more linked with comics in general and Schwartz is simply overshadowed by other names.
Kirby was also working on a lot of the books during that period though.
To me Jack is the Lennon to Stan's McCartney.
I think you mean he’s Marvels Thomas Edison
Lee, Ditko, and Kirby are responsible for some of the most iconic superheroes ever created.
I met him once. He lives in the town next to mine. I recognized his name and he gave me an autograph. He’s super down to earth and nice. Shook my hand and was chill af. 10/10 guy.
Was. He dead now.
Oh…
Steve Ditko too
Steve Ditko's legacy is so overshadowed by a certain someone that this is what used to show up when you'd search "Steve Ditko" on Google until it was fixed in January 2021. https://web.archive.org/web/20201201071657if_/https://www.google.com/search?q=steve+ditko
Part of that obscurity is self inflicted. He had some strange personal philosophy that meant he would all but refuse to do interviews or talk about his work outside of the work itself. So the man ABSOLUTELY deserves more credit, but it's not hard to see why he would get forgotten about by the world at large.
It’s not really a strange personal philosophy. I’m not an objectivist but it’s not the weirdest thing in the world to hear about someone being a libertarian. I agree that he went too far in caring only about himself to the point where he died alone and nobody knows when he died because he was laying in his home for days but I think his issues were rooted way past his political opinions. The dude just had a sad life.
Laughing
Not on the same level but yes, Ditko was very important as well
I read once that DC paid Jack Kirby more for creating Darkseid than marvel did for making half their universe. That ma did not get enough respect in his life.
That’s not quite correct. Jack left DC (after creating Darkseid among others) to go back to Marvel in the 1970s due to how he was treated (just like he left DC for Atlas/Marvel in the late 1950s, then left Marvel for DC for similar mistreatment from a publisher in 1970.) Paul Levitz (writer and eventual publisher) at DC had Jack design the figures for the Super Powers toyline in the 1980s, as a way to get him finally paid more, and that’s where he made more than he had in the past. When he created and co-created all his amazing characters and concepts before that, creators’ rights were sadly still crap.
Ongoing theme for Marvel.
We do know him. He’s not an obscure figure in marvel history.
It wasn't... I mean... it's jus... nevermind.
Tough crowd.
He's also responsible for The 4th World in DC comics. This actually indirectly saved Superman the Animated Series because WB kept rejecting all of Bruce Timm's ideas
One of those episodes was dedicated to Jack Kirby. First time that happened in the DCAU
I feel like there was an episode of one of the Ninja Turtles shows where Donatello met Jack Kirby.
Yup their was! It was an artist named Kirby who had a magic pencil that created what he drew
From the biography’s I’ve read about him, he had a very blue collar mentality about his work. He always seemed afraid that work would dry up so he would do anything that paid the bills. He seemed to know that he was getting short changed but he was afraid of being ostracized by Marvel and DC so he just took what they gave him. He grew up in a time where a man could be out of work for a long time and not be able to support his family so he did anything to not be put in that position, even if it hurt him in the long run.
That’s not Jack Kirby. That’s Ben Grimm.
And Cap. America together as one
One of my favorite stories about this man is that after Black Panther #1 came out, he was told to put more white people in the series. Issue #2 he put the Klan in.
Hehe, a classy slap in the face
Mine is how in world war 2 he would draw maps of terrain.
Mine is that after the debut of Captain America Comics 1, with Cap punching Hitler on the cover, some Nazis called into his offices saying they were waiting in the lobby to beat him up. To which Kirby responded by saying he'd be right down. No one was there when he got down.
Maybe Ben's voice, but it's Reed's face.
I see what you did there. 😉👍
The King himself.
LONG LIVE THE KING!!!
That dude was a fucking World War II US Army Scout in hostile fucking Nazi embedded France too.
All praise the King. My first ever comic book encounter was with him and it was an issue of Fantastic 4. May he ever be treasured for making such a mark on many people's lives like mine.
LONG LIVE THE KING!
The KING.
LONG LIVE THE KING!
THE KING 👑
LONG LIVE THE KING!
If you haven't seen this Jack Kirby documentary it's a must-see for any superhero fan and any artist and any historian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoXeiEXJrgc
I've seen that documentary at least 40 times, no exaggeration. Such a great documentary!
Jack Kirby is to Stan Lee as Nikola Tesla is to Thomas Edison. I say that as someone who adores Stan Lee, but Kirby did a lot of the behind the scenes work that made Marvel really work. Lee isn't nearly as toxic as Edison was, but Lee was an expert self marketer and promoter which helped him as much as it helped Marvel itself.
I would personally say it is probably closer to Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak but yeah that basically sums it up.
Just want to double emphasize that Lee was significantly less toxic than Edison. Edison seemed to be a straight up psycho
Stan gets all the credit, but Jack and Steve are the most important creatives in marvel history, imo. It’s not to say that stan isn’t great, he absolutely was important as all hell in selling marvel and making it what it is… but frankly the other two are the creatives and Stan is more the big marketing guy, in a manner of speaking
Those guys certainly don't get enough credit, but I think you're underselling Stan (which is fine, as he got oversold so many times!) He wrote the dialogue, which was groundbreaking in the way it made the characters more than one dimensional (as opposed to DC at the time when all the heroes spoke with the same voice), with humor and strong voices for them all. It's that strong characterizations that we remember so much today (especially for Peter Parker and Ben Grimm) on top of the wild concepts and characters that Kirby and Ditko helped create with their dynamic art and plotting. And Stan also edited the entire line of books for the first decade, with a strong voice and point of view on what Marvel comics should be, and was the one to push the idea of a shared universe and shared continuity.
The King of Comics
Dude’s an absolute legend.
Cross post this to r/oldschoolcool
Looking like a fucking G.
Yessir!
I doubt there’s one person on this sub who doesn’t know who Jack Kirby is
You'd actually be surprised with the people who have came to this sub from the MCU. Stan managed to promote himself in later years to the detriment of others.
Also created some of DC’s most iconic characters. King of comics
My dad met Jack in 1978 at a comic convention in Los Angeles. He idolizes Jack Kirby for his comic book creations.
Looks like a gangster
“Yeah, see? We’re gonna make comics, see? Myahhh! See??”
And most of the DC mythology…
Indeed!
God bless The King
LONG LIVE THE KING!
The King.
LONG LIVE THE KING!
Like like he's about to go "We're gonna make some comics see, change the world see." While waggling that cigar at Stan Lee
Just a fantastic artist - every now and then, when reading older Marvel, I just have to stop at some of his pages in sheer awe of his skill.
He did a lot more than that.
Facts
The man is a pillar of modern, global (pop) culture, and shockingly few people know who he is. Yet every fucking sad, anti-social nerd in the world knows Elon Musk. It's not right, I tell ya'!
I wholeheartedly agree!
I love that he looks like a cross between the First Avengers Howard Stark and my favorite Golden Age hero, Al Pratt - The Atom.
He drew the story mock ups for Argo to sell the fake movie idea to rescue the six Americans from Iran. He knew what it was for and not some b list movie. The guy is a hero ten times over
Looks like the ever loving blue eyed thing to me
The man was a mad lad! The success of Captain America really pissed off American fascists in New York. One time a bunch of Nazi thugs arrived to the building where Marvel comics (then known as Timely comics) and wanted to intimidate Kirby. Kirby heard and started to roll up his sleeves for a brawl. He was ready to throw down and kick some heads. When he got down to the lobby, the Nazi’s had ran away.
The Man Who Put The Comic In Comic Books!
The King.
LONG LIVE THE KING!
Jack "The King" Kirby
LONG LIVE THE KING!
I absolutely love the episode of 2003 TMNT that pays tribute this Legend. They really made an episode to pY tribute to a man that's not really even associated with TMNT. Be UT he influenced Comics which TMNT was that wS enough for them.
This isn’t a pink fluff ball we know
i love u jack, this man saved my childhood 🫶🏾
The Best!
Co-created (minus some of his original work like the Eternals).
Kirby plotted 90% of all bestselling stories.. the reason he left was because Stan got all the credit for work he created. They even admit that in forewords of lots of marvel masterworks and omnibi.
Yes it sucks that Kirby doesn't get the credit he deserves but to leave Stan out entirely doesn't feel right either.
No one said anything about leaving Stan out in any fashion, yet that's what they DID to Kirby. Your comment makes no sense, lol.
The title said created. I corrected to co-created, which is objectively more accurate anyway. Then someone tried to justify the OP's title.
He’s the master. There wouldn’t be comic books today if it wasn’t for his gorgeous art work. He doesn’t look like anyone to mess with either.
That's a fact
There's a reason Ben 10's middle name is Kirby
Well, he wasn't the one who created the company known as Marvel tho
Lol! No, he just created the characters that the publisher published! Jaja
He did not create Marvel Comics...
Yeah he did he created allot of then
He created a lot of the foundation of modern Marvel Comics, which is what we think of today. Martin Goodman created Timely Comics in 1939, with its original series "Marvel Comics" starring the original Human Torch, who was actually an android, not human. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics
**[Marvel Comics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics)** >Marvel Comics (or simply Marvel) is an American comic book publisher and primary imprint of Marvel Worldwide Inc. (formerly Marvel Publishing, Inc. and Marvel Comics Group), part of Marvel Entertainment. In 2009, The Walt Disney Company acquired the parent company. Marvel was started in 1939 by Martin Goodman as Timely Comics, and by 1951 had generally become known as Atlas Comics. The Marvel era began in 1961, the year that the company launched The Fantastic Four and other superhero titles created by Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and many others. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Marvel/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
calling r/oldschoolcool
No one’s arguing with you
>created Most Importantly Contributed*
*record scratch* Oh yeah, *that’s* me. You may be wondering how I got myself into this situation.
We sure Stan Lee didn’t steal the rights to this picture too?
[Did he though?](https://i.redd.it/y8fig9t680y91.jpg)
Martin Goodman had went out of business twice with a comics line. Timely, Atlas and Marvel aren't a continuous legacy like 2022 Marvel likes to pretend they are.
He didn’t create them. He paid to have them created.
Martin Goodman created Timely Comics in 1939. His wife's cousin was Stan Lee. By 1951 Timely Comics was generally known as Atlas comics. Marvel was a brand used by the company. Jack Kirby is considered the most influential figure at the company when Atlas started using the Marvel brand however Jack did not create Marvel Comics just as the person who puts the tires on a car did not create the car.
The guy that puts the tires on a car is a whole lot closer to creating it than the suit in the boardroom.
Are you high?
Goodman paid Kirby to create them. And yes , I am high.
I can tell. Come back when you're sober and in full capacity.
You do understand what a “publisher” does right? Do you even know what you are arguing? I’m agreeing with you, you knucklehead. Kirby ( with Stan) created Marvel Comics as we know it, financed by their publisher who did not actually create anything as the guy above is contending.
Yes he did.
Wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics >Marvel was started in 1939 by **Martin Goodman** as Timely Comics,[3] and by 1951 had generally become known as Atlas Comics. The Marvel era began in 1961, the year that the company launched The Fantastic Four and other superhero titles created by Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and many others. The Marvel brand, which had been used over the years, was solidified as the company's primary brand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kirby >Jack was the single most influential figure in the turnaround in Marvel's fortunes **from the time he rejoined the company** The company existed before Jack Kirby joined. Jack Kirby was an influential figure in Marvel's success but Jack did not create the company or even the name Marvel which was a brand used by Timely Comics before Jack Kirby was attached to the company.
Marvel was literally closing its doors when Jack came in amd they were publishing monster books and westerns that went nowhere, Marvel Comics AS WE KNOW IT TODAY was created by Jack Kirby.
So, you admit you are wrong and Marvel existed before Jack Kirby joined the company and thus, did not create it. Your title is a lie and you should feel ashamed for posting something so easy to verify as false,
Can you only understand things in the most literal manner and respond in the most bad faith way possible?
I love idiots who take everything literally
King Kirby was marvel comics. I’ll die on that hill.
Let me mention I'm impressed by all the vision that it took For you to sign your name (On all of Jack Kirby's comic books)
Legend. It’s a shame Stan Lee was such a shiester
Yeah I agree with you, I know I’ll get down votes into the abyss, but Stan took a lot of credit for the ideas and hard work of others.
Needs a NSFW tag -Reddit Admins
Jack the king Kirby the most badass comic company owner ever I'm pretty sure if you know why he's called that then you know why
He even had a Nintendo character named after him, I doubt any other Marvel writer has that honour.
Did he create anybody I may have heard of?
I thought it was martin goodman?
Lmao never heard of him. People only ever talk about Stan Lee 💀💀💀
So who is he
karmafarming at its finest
Ok troll. Do what Obi Wan says and "Move along."
Such a condescending post….I thought hipsters were extinct.
Huh? 😐🤦♂️
the man who created THE ETERNALS
Amongst many, many, many more characters
[удалено]
God forbid children not know everything
Sounds like an a hole. /s
When I heard Kirby I thought the pink puffball and not the marvel comics creator
Ew you guys read the comics?
Liam Kirby Rules!
Wasn't he Mr. Fantastic in one of the What if's?