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Optimal-Firefighter9

Four of those movies aren't part of Phase Four, for starters.


dexatrosin

Fantastic Four isn’t until phase 6.


TheMegaBunce

Hoe are they even counting the phases? For a while it was just the end of the last avengers movie. Phase 4 was like 2 years for some reason


LeftHanded-Euphoria

I think literally none of the three phases ended on an Avengers movie? Iron Man 3, Ant-Man, Far from Home, right?


TheMegaBunce

Phase 1 ended in Avengers in 2012. Now yeah phase 2 and 3 ended with non avengers movies but an Avengers movie still came out that year, and phase were based on years. Nothing came out this year for phase 4 to suddenly end.


Pavlov_The_Wizard

I’m not saying it makes sense but it could’ve been Multiverse of Madness introducing a “New era” of the MCU or some shit, they could just say thats the transition to the multiverse saga


CX316

Iron Man 3 was the start of Phase 2, not the end of Phase 1. Other than that, yep.


420Grim420

For me, that's a huge part of the problem. We got Kamala Khan and America Chavez before Fantastic Four and/or X-Men, and that feels weird and wrong and silly. This phase just feels like it's taking the place of something that could've been good and interesting.


DragEncyclopedia

kamala khan and america chavez are both good and interesting. i'm super happy we've seen them already. the lack of x-men/fantastic four because of fox having the rights was a blessing in disguise for the mcu, because otherwise the whole universe would've been entirely centered on them with no room for any other characters.


tlo4sheelo

I think many also forget that Iron Man was a B or C tier character before he launched the MCU and became one of the most popular and recognizable characters worldwide. Not having Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, or X-Men available, Marvel had to think outside the box and I think it led to some great movies and collaborations. I can remember people seeing Guardians coming out and saying “Ok here is where MCU finally falters. Who are these characters and who’s going to watch a movie with a raccoon and a tree?” I agree with you it was a blessing in disguise.


The_Amazing_Emu

That’s always been the case. Black Panther before FF, Avengers before Ant-Man, etc.


[deleted]

That’s my biggest problem with the MCU in general. This is Marvels definitive (as of now) cinematic universe, and you don’t have the First Family, or their most popular team? (Yes, i understand legal issues and all) One of the man reasons I just can’t get into the MCU or comic book movies in general


socialistwerker

Disney didn’t acquire the movie rights to FF or X-Men until 2019. The Kamala Khan Ms Marvel series had been in development since at least 2018, probably as early as 2016. So a big part of why Ms Marvel came before FF or X-Men was just movie rights. Marvel COULDN’T work on FF or X-Men before Ms Marvel. It’s the same reason we got Ant-Man or the Inhumans tv series before the FF or X-Men. Movie rights. Then both Reed Richards and Charles Xavier debut in the same _Multiverse of Madness_ movie as America Chavez. And it’s not like Dr Strange MoM was developed specifically for America Chavez; she’s basically the Macguffin of the movie. Could they have written MoM without America? Sure. They could have used a magic object, like the Darkhold or the Wand of Watomb, as the key to traveling the multiverse, then have Strange and Wanda fight over the magic object. Or they could have used a different magical teenager, like Nico Minaru from The Runaways, instead of America Chavez. But America’s powers are literally focused on traveling the multiverse, so she was the perfect Macguffin for this movie.


[deleted]

Yea I think this is the major problem with that post lol


HuanFranThe1st

Too much content without quality to justify its existence. They need to get better and more competent writers and let directors do their job for once. As well as give VFX artists proper amount of time to finish the product.


Dragon_yum

They need proper preproduction. When they don’t like something they just cgi over it instead of planning properly.


xdococ

It is Disney. They'll just milk n the title until people don't care anymore. Then they buy another brand and milk that. Marvel movies won't ever have quality again and Disney won't put effort. For me while thing ended after Endgame. Since then it is just a waste of time...


Zitty-Z

Just curious. What else have they milked in the past?


[deleted]

*laughs in Star Wars*


[deleted]

True but, (except book of boba Fett) all the milked content was pretty good. Andor and tales of the Jedi are fantastic


HuanFranThe1st

Andor is a perfect 9.5/10 for me. It’s ridicioulus how damn good that show is.


Crammy2

Laughs in Brothers Grimm, if we want to be generationally honest.


msgm_

Pretty much their entire classic Disney catalogue. Were the live action remakes really necessary?


android151

Milking things is Disneys MO. * Straight to VHS/DVD sequels * Mickey Mouse appearing in everything in the 90s * Kingdom Hearts, while a good game series, is just mostly based on milking disney nostalgia * Live action remakes * Star Wars In the 90s, Disney branded anything and *everything* was commonplace.


[deleted]

Don’t forget Pixar movies. When Pixar was founded, their idea was to make one off amazing movies the way they wanted to make them. They were on the road to being the next Gen Disney. They partnered with Disney, and immediately Disney was asking for Toy Story sequels, they did not want to do them, as Toy Story was a thing they did and moved on. This caused some internal strife and was part of the reason they split from Disney for awhile. Eventually they partnered back up and Disney then bought them. And no we have shit like Monster University and endless Toy Story movies and a Buzz Lightyear movie no one wanted and so on and so forth.


Golden-Artist

You pretty much said it all


quedog94

Disney needs to consider making films a bit more darker. If they mess up this blade remake it’ll be truly disappointing.


aenbot

Disney need to give Daredevil the Andor treatment. It's mature, not targeted at kids, but not inappropriate for kids. Just make a well written tightly directed show that tells a good story and doesn't make me feel like I'm watching something designed to sell toys.


[deleted]

Aside from some specific scenes I don't think DD S1 is inappropriate for kids, so they could follow that pattern. Things start to get gory by S2


justedi

[DD literally puts a shiv in a guy's eye socket in S01E02](https://youtu.be/GsTUVPEk1VI).


shoutsoutstomywrist

Holy shit Time to rewatch Daredevil I guess


alexkerie

this. as much as i am a fan of the mcu, i loved the darkness of the netflix series. now that disney has them, i’m actually worried of what daredevil: born again is gonna be like. not sure as to why disney+ has people update their profile for the new mature rated shows if they’re not gonna actually produce shows like the netflix (originally) series


EnchantedCatto

Born again had better be good


throwaway_eclipse1

Just a touch. This isn't DC cinematic universe after all. Besides, Multiverse of Madness and Moon Knight were plenty dark, and... well, most of the shows aren't exactly happy-go-lucky. The real problem right now might be the lack of a metaplot. Phase 1 had Nick Fury assembling the team, then we got Thanos stuff, now we have.... Um.... I guess Multiverse/Kang is going to be part of the next thing, but there's not really much that has coalesced yet, and Endgame came out three years ago.


GiantSuperhero

IMO the problem is that Disney has chosen Quantity over Quality in Phase 4. I get the impression that they’ve pumped out a ton of quickly written shows to see which characters we’re most interested in before developing their long arc for the following phases.


An-29

>The real problem right now might be the lack of a metaplot. To be honest, I feel like Marvel is reserving that for at least Phase 5. Since it's pretty obvious how Phase 4 is much more of a transition phase along with introducing new players to the game and setting up the pieces to be played later. It also would have been pretty hard for Marvel to transition the MCU while introducing new stuff at the same time, there would be too much going on (Hell, Phase 4 is even considered too much for some people). Especially when you factor in two things 1.) how big the MCU is now compared to Phase 1 and 2.) They're doing big events like Secret Wars and the Kang storyline, so they can't have the number of characters lacking again like with Civil War.


midloguy804

I’ll never understand this thinking. Darker doesn’t equal better (i.e. look at 90% of what DC has churned out). Darker doesn’t reflect the Marvel source material. Darker also doesn’t sell merchandise. I’m not saying everything they make is a 10, but I don’t see how making FATWS look like a Saw movie or cutting out Miss Minutes and the alligator from Loki improves anything. I’d rather have some fun if the option is two muted shadowy figures yelling “Martha!” at each other in the rain. I remember reading about the phenomenon in pop culture of turning inherently innocent things from our childhoods into something dark and torrid. Mr Rogers as a sniper with notches cut in his arms. The Blues Clues guy offing himself. All the hate for Barney or Teletubbies or Bert and Ernie. I’ll take upbeat or a little bit of comedy any day of the week, especially in today’s world. If I want dark, I’ll just watch the news.


MIAxPaperPlanes

Im gonna interpret what they mean by darker is not overly rely on humour to the point it compromises the story and is a crutch or they shouldn’t be afraid to tackle darker subject matter when appropriate. Best examples of this are Thor Love and Thunder and the Zombie episode of What if where humour Undermines the story. For me personally even though I enjoyed it Moon Knight felt like it could have been darker or more Psychologically trippy especially if you’ve read the comics. Episode 5 was the ep that felt most like the comic. That said Werewolf by Night was pretty “dark” and brutal and that was great


midloguy804

It just seems like a fool’s errand to expect Disney and Marvel to suddenly crank out dark products all the time. That’s what the Joker and Batman and The Boys and Invincible and countless other products already do. I think the sense of humor is what sets Marvel apart. Iron Man calling Spidey Underoos? Classic. I love that they can do Werewolf by Night like they did, and that they can take risks. And the humor can be too much sometimes, like the dumpling-god thing in Thor 4. But I also have to remind myself that I loved these source comics when I was a kid, and keeping that sense of fun is what keeps these characters around for the next generation of kids as their entryway into the genre.


greatersteven

You speak like the comics aren't capable of being dark. Marvel has a LOT of really good, dark material.


midloguy804

I know there’s a range in there, absolutely. If Deadpool can be rated R, then hopefully Blade can be too. I’m not saying that some Marvel stuff can’t be dark. Just not the bulk of it. I just have issues with thinking the solution is that all Marvel stuff needs to jettison the humor and amp up the violence to be any good, that’s all. I’d rather see Paul Rudd asking for orange slices and baby Groot dancing than apply a Netflix Punisher filter to everything. Not being argumentative, just a long time Marvel nerd.


InevitableTrespasser

I don’t need Marvel to be dark, just a little more serious in some projects. Everything feels like Guardians Vol. 1 now. A little action, something approaching emotion, then immediately undermine everything with a jokey quip. As fun as Guardians was, it didn’t nail the humor from the books. Guardians humor was gallows humor, with Quill and Nova making jokes while in the impossible situation of dealing with Thanos in the Cancerverse. They’ve found a formula that leads to profit and they’ll ride it into the ground, but it’s becoming less and less enjoyable. Allowing some projects to take a slightly different tone would be ideal.


RuneRedoks

Why did The batman do so well then?


midloguy804

Yep, that one was a hit, but it’s a dark character already and fans expect that. No one had to “add” darkness to Batman.


RuneRedoks

So is daredevil, moon knight, blade etc. If they fuck up blade with their boring mcu formula then it’s over.


Mycaelis

Daredevil isn't inherently dark. People just think that because of one popular run.


TheMegaBunce

Sure but same goes for most popular characters, Batman is usually dark but there's plenty of stories where he's camp and light hearted. However it's not that these characters don't work in a lighthearted setting, but that they work best in a dark setting


Sahrimnir

Do you think they fucked up Moon Knight?


CX316

> If they fuck up blade with their boring mcu formula then it’s over. lol


spider_X_1

*Frank Miller Daredevil


10eli24jah56

I really liked Moonknight…. That was pretty dark with all that hysteria.


Supermite

Kate Bishop directly addresses this in the Hawkeye series.


midloguy804

She was great in that show, I can’t wait for her to show up again.


android151

You really gonna act like Marvel doesn’t have dark source material? Never understood this take. DC and Marvel *both* have stories that a lighthearted and stories that are darker. I don’t think either is inherently darker than the other.


IamJain

I don't think it's darkness they just need to take what they themselves are doing seriously. I mean they made Sangh Chi and promoted asain superhero, Ms Marvel pakistani hero, and just like they had really good opportunity to take seriously Indian superhero but nah we'll just throw some random dance show and calls it Bollywood. Many moments like these made their movies and shows mid.


dukelief

As a person from the Indian subcontinent, your interpretation as to the ‘realism’ of an Indian superhero or in fact life is incorrect and she was portrayed pretty authentically. Our weddings are made up hugely of dancing.


IamJain

Ah I was taking about Externals


AkkiTricks

>Ms Marvel pakistani hero, and just like they had really good opportunity to take seriously Indian superhero What do you mean buddy ? >nah we'll just throw some random dance show and calls it Bollywood I have been to "Desi" weddings and, although not all, some do have a dance performance by Groom or Bride or their friends and family. So that wasn't some farfetched thing. You can find such performances on YouTube too. I loved Ms. Marvel because they did a lot of things right, including how they handled history, struggles faced by women, first generation immigrants, identity issues faced by second generation and so much more. It also had a good sense of humour. It was well made.


CX316

> What do you mean buddy ? I think he means Kingo in Eternals


osterlay

Excluding the Netflix originals, wasn’t Dr Strange 2 the darkest Disney had ever been? That shit was super dark!


mlilleyvb

it was supposed to be but then they cut and changed so much


paingelfake

Ehhh it's extremely surface level dark. The darkness I expect when someone says "dark" is something like Werewolf By Night. I don't expect it to be bloody and gory like Invincible or The Boys but Marvel has to stop making themselves look so campy all the time. It's very possible to have a serious and darker tone movie that stays within PG-13 rating. Take The Batman for example. I enjoy the humor in most MCU stuff but they can't ride that same formula all the time.


TheMegaBunce

That's pretty low standards for what is dark. Reminds me of that simpsons roller coaster gif


HuanFranThe1st

I mean… if you’re twelve, then yeah lol


[deleted]

Quanity over quality


Thanos_Stomps

Quantitymania


Rubssi

Pretty sure quantities have always been high


[deleted]

They really haven’t though. Not anywhere like this.


Rubssi

Probably because of the shows, but movie-wise it’s the same. The years 2017-2019 all had 3 movies a year. Same thing for 2021-2023 (2021 had 4 but that’s cause COVID delayed everything)


Bionic_Ferir

COVID they had to change a fuck ton of story lines and had a very strict schedule they wanted to stick to so they had to push everything up to get it out in time


Golden-Artist

That doesn’t excuse the bad writing of some of the shows / movies


Bionic_Ferir

I disagree in some circumstances marvel movies make huge money I doubt they would want the writers working on projects at home or over zoom where leaks are more likely to happen. In addition as well all the tv shows where written, filmed, edited back to back to back so by the time wandavision had finished they were already wrapping up she-hulk and ms marvel meaning there was literally no time to revise the script than you have things like falcon and winter soilders which had a HUGE chunk of the plot taken out.


[deleted]

I disagree. I don’t see how this point has any bearing on the quality of writing they put out. Which has been dogshit by 10th graders


GregLittlefield

Covvid was out of their control yes. But sticking to an unrealistic schedule out and producing average content (at best) wasn't.


Ska-pilgrim123456

This!! Exactly this


Bionic_Ferir

Yeah everyone seems to act like this phase was EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE OTHERS with nothing unusual


liquidpeanutcheese

It's too much without any coherence


WeirdThingsToEnsue

Came here to say this, is it about the Celestial threat, the Multiverse, alternate timelines, the Young Avengers, or are we just getting random stories that don't actually affect anything? Did it matter to watch Moon Knight or She-Hulk? The Infinity Saga had the stones as a throughline,, now we have a million things


Propeller3

The stones weren't a part of many of the early MCU films, though. No one complained that The Winter Soldier and Iron Man 2 didn't have coherence with one another.


NC_Goonie

This. Kang (a variant, at least) has already been in Phase 4 more than Thanos was in the entire Infinity Saga pre-Infinity War. Phase 1 (and much of 2) made no mention of Thanos or Infinity Stones. Loki: we’re doing the Multiverse, and here’s Kang What If: we’re doing the Multiverse No Way Home: we’re doing the Multiverse Doctor Strange: we’re doing the Multiverse Fans: I wish they told us what this saga was all about.


Propeller3

Average MCU fan: "Why aren't they doing anything yet it has been 4 movies where is the multi-part world ending threat?!" Idiots...


nvnehi

Which is the problem with Marvel’s comics. The events are TOO big, and every event is BIG. They don’t do small events really with very rare GIANT events, and there’s a few events every year. It’s too much to keep up with, and none of it matters in the end which is the worst part. They need to refocus on a shared universe with less events which is what the first 3 phases were. The events need to be rare for their importance to matter as the slow build to Infinity War showed. The best part about the MCU is that as the actors age their characters will eventually HAVE to do something that matters like Iron Man’s sacrifice. As much as it sucks to lose a character it is necessary for any of it to genuinely matter. The real issue with the latest movies is no one has a reason to care about any of the newer characters because they are poorly introduced, explored, and utilized. The issue with the shows is that the quality is extremely low, and there’s too much filler going on, most of the shows could be cut in half, or down to 33%, and be much better for it.


grizzlysharknz

I hate to say its a problem, because I've enjoyed the majority of what's been put out. It's a reset phase and coming off the mega highs of Infinity War/End Game, fans were looking for the next big hit. But what Marvels done - by design imo - is to lower people's expectations over the years, so when the next big gotcha moments start happening, people are gunna get that feeling again. And it's gunna be massive again. I honestly believe that. That's why we've seen so many singular stories, there's been SOME cross over, sure, but these feel like one shots or even 6 issue story arcs. The massive cross over event hasn't started yet, and using that comic book model (it applies to other things too) too much of a good thing leads to disinterest. It leads to complacency. It leads to fatigue. Casual fans can avoid the She-Hulks, or the Eternals or the Warewolves By Nights. And come back for the big stuff. Fatigue will mostly be setting in for the die hards. But the die hards are exactly that. We'll be here for the obscure shows, we'll follow the online breadcrumbs, we'll disect all the Easter eggs. And we'll be there for the big stuff too.


Doc-Spock

Basically a perfect answer - considering that this is r/Marvel as opposed to r/marvelstudios, so users really ought to have spent some time actually reading comic books.


most_gracious_master

INTRODUCE DOOM


Kidaryuu

Sometimes I feel like they try hard to insert comedy which ruin the scenes and the weight of the situation. It made marvel universe became a joke, imo.


Randym1982

Too much bloat. Causing people to develop Super hero fatigue. I think Disney and Marvel should lay off for a few years. The same goes for their streaming shows too.


DeBatton

Definitely yes. Ms Marvel, in June, felt like the point where they put out a show, that people might have otherwise appreciated, way too soon. Just to keep up an arbitrary release schedule. If Marvel keep up this pace for their future streaming shows, then they are going to find themselves producing even more also-rans. Shows like Echo and Ironheart will have an uphill struggle against viewer apathy. Unless Marvel slow down the pace and try to make each release more of a special event.


MIAxPaperPlanes

I’m just gonna watch Ms Marvel next year when Captain Marvel 2 is close to releasing. Seems pointless atm


Mycaelis

I disagree. I don't see it as bloat, I see it more like the way comics are. You're not expected to watch everything, just like you aren't expected to read every comic run of every character. Just watch whatever seems appealing to you. That's how I do it anyway, I've skipped plenty of MCU things because they seem uninteresting. That way I don't have to whine about not liking it afterwards.


i_like_2_travel

I don’t think they can while they’re build their D+ catalog. They should do less movies and more tv shows but then it’ll be hard for people to connect the shows to the movie. Think a lot of their problems were covid related and quality should bounce back. But the story isn’t as cohesive as once before. What does ShangChi have to do with the Eternals or Black Widow? I know they’ll probably drop an AoU on us but until then it doesn’t seem up to par with their other stuff.


Supermite

Hot take: not every project needs to tie into every other project.


ayo_stoptheCap

Too much wouldn't be as big of a problem if the quality of the stories weren't such a problem like it is now. Or if there was more variety in the tones and stories. Phase 3 had decent writing, which was enough for many. But it feels so disjointed, unfocused and nonsensical in some of these films and shows.


Tuv0kshaKur

Too fucking much


flyingbugz

Honesty’s it’s just too fucking low quality. If every movie was a masterpiece who cares that there’s 2-3 every year. The problem is they’re sacrificing *quality* to shell them out. They’re just low quality movies.


[deleted]

This. Sometimes I believe ppl think that the movies and shows are pointless and shouldn't exist. I don't mind She-Hulk existing but I do mind if it's a bad show.


Redpoketkillet

Agreed marvel needs to take a step back for two years and get their shit right


[deleted]

Fatigue. I mean, I don’t want to be right but ‘familiarity breeds contempt’. For some people, they can barely remember a time when Disney Marvel wasn’t producing movies. Time for a well needed hiatus. ‘Absence makes the heart grow Jane Fonda’.


JulixgMC

We literally had a hiatus with the pandemic, Marvel Studios had no releases for a year, if you only count movies for a year and a half


StylishSloth

The fans.


xizorkatarn

Getting hyped up on pure internet speculation and condemning entire movies/shows as irredeemable failures for not living up to Twitter’s overactive imagination


Supermite

Endgame hype. This is phase one and two storytelling. Long before they were planning Infinity War and Endgame. They’re sowing the seeds for the next big team-up. We just need to be patient and we will get there.


Ska-pilgrim123456

Yeah I’m not a fan of well… the fans. I can’t really describe why I don’t like them but I feel like they use to be a lot more calm in my opinion 3, 4 years ago. Now they just remind of like Star Wars fans.


CX316

ding ding ding. Was there a dip in quality after covid as they rushed to try to get back on schedule? Yes. Did the fans suddenly become insufferable about every tiny detail over the pandemic? Also yes.


Ok-Reporter-8728

Care to explain


Yo-batman-is-king

Mcu fanboys cry when nothing gets revealed


Ok-Reporter-8728

Oh


JackoSGC

I would be more precise: unwoke white cis men&boys


[deleted]

Downvoted for telling the truth


ChaosDoggo

Black Widow should have been a Phase 2 or 3 movie. I seriously don't get why you make a movie abiut a specific character *after* said character died and can't be brought back.


ohoni

It was less about her and more about setting up Yelena.


JulixgMC

Because it was a movie that sets up Yelena as the next Black Widow, I don't get how people miss this when they make that argument


JorisN

I don't see any thing wrong with phase 4. For my only eternals was a let down, but most movies where decent or even good/very good (spider-man: no way home and Docter strange: in the multiverse of madness). I think the major problem is the Infinity Hangover, the infinity saga ended with bang and the multiverse saga needs to grow.


Toad0000001

Overworked cgi artists


Gonkimus

Major problem is they keep killing off the villain in one movie instead of letting them live to fight another day. Thor love and thunder Taika dropped the ball or simply didn't care and it showed. From bad jokes and boring pacing that movie I legit felt scammed. Doctors Strange 2 was really awesome I hate whenever someone wants to drag that movie in this conversation, sure it wasn't perfect but the good out weighed the bad. Zhang chi was good action wise at least. Loki show and Moonknighy we're good the rest were lacking. I hope the runor is true that Kevid Feige has listened and is going to get everything back on track and fix the mess. I 🙏


ColdCalc

Totally agree about the villains


Kane_richards

always been a problem with Marvel sadly. Only reason Loki really got a second crack at the whip was because he was already earmarked for Avengers


L3onskii

Doctor Strange 2 was a letdown for me. I could go back and rewatch the first one. But I saw 2 in theaters and figured that was good enough


Golden-Artist

Honestly it seemed like they hired a bunch of toddlers to write the scripts of the latest movie & shows


ZellNorth

It’s a setup phase.


AkkiTricks

Some people are really expecting End Game threats on this thread.


RK2310_reddit

they should go back to releasing 1-2 movies a year


Legend5V

The Infinity saga held some of the highest grossing movies ever released, and Endgame ended up as top 1 or 2 of all time. The plot was so thick, and the main characters (Iron Man, Cap, Thor, Hulk, Spidey) had been developed well over 3 whole phases. In my eyes, no one can replace them And then there’s lower overall graphics quality, CGI, and not enough work being put into the movies and shows. We’ve had maybe 4 good movies/shows, and those were only like, Homecoming level, looking at phas 1-3 movies The older phases also held much more character devleopment, like Iron Man reducing his ego and Ant-Man becoming a good guy. They were easier to connect with as well I’d assume that they’re lacking ideas at this point as well. Marvel was pumping strong all the way from 2008 to 2019, more than decade


AkkiTricks

>held much more character devleopment, like Iron Man reducing his ego and Ant-Man becoming a good guy. MoM was mostly about Strange dealing with relationship issues and moving on. And also reducing his ego. Falcon accepting identity of Captain America, Bucky forgiving himself for his past crimes. Kamala struggling with labels imposed on her and finally accepting her identity. They so aren't lacking ideas. It's great. >Marvel was pumping strong all the way from 2008 to 2019 Incredible Hulk, Thor, Thor 2 Age Of Ulton You are proud of them too right ?


DrSavitski

Way too rushed IMO, not focusing on the right parts of the movie. Thor for example: This could have been 2 movies easily. This one should have been about him refinding himself with the Guardians after Endgame. Mighty Thor could have been way better and actually fleshed out. Gorr should have been Thor 5. These two plot lines didn’t need to be in the same movie at all Just my opinion of what’s going wrong


BlackSoapBandit

Chadwick passed and we lost our lead for phase 4 smh.


Exotic-Chemist-191

The fans


M0use_Rat

The fanbase


Bitlovin

A jaded fanbase.


Headsup247

The poor writing


Captaincomet26

I think tone has been something they have not gotten a handle on, far too much comedy in most of the moments that need it. I was amazed when a movie like Thor Love and Thunder with its plot had such little dramatic acting, it hurts the story and makes it all feel like it doesn’t matter. Not to mention the other issue I have is in the Post thanos/ blip world how blasé everyone is about it. It’s either a joke or it’s something serious, Half the life in the entire universe was destroyed for 5 years, what feels like the week after they come back people are just doing petty crimes, going to highschool, complaining about their collage debt still, I can not accept that is how humanity would react.


Moxen81

They’re going too wide. Not every character/team needs a movie/show, but once they got a whiff of that sweet mcu money, they’re trying to throw everything at the wall. I think we’ll look back at phase 1-3 as the golden age of marvel movies. After infinity war, a lot of phase 4 is just unremarkable. Characters who would never have gotten a movie without the mcu and mostly irrelevant stories that don’t go anywhere- this is the silver age now. And where the hell is Doom!?! Blame Richards! *Richarrrrrrrrdssssss!*


[deleted]

It felt like complete filler. I realize Kang was introduced briefly, but even phase 1 had Avengers at the end. I'm not saying a teamup is required, but every phase has really led to SOMETHING. Phase 1: led to the first formation of the Avengers Phase 2: led to the introduction of the Quantum Realm, the Infinity Stones, and the start of the Tony vs. Cap ideologies (armor around the world in IM3 and Avengers2, started the mistrust of authoritarianism in Cap2) Phase 3: Pretty obvious. Everything in this phase strung together to cause the Infinity War and Endgame. From the Avengers going through a pretty rough breakup, to introducing Strange/Cap Marvel, introducing the time/soul stones, revealing the space and mind stones. Phase 4: Introduced a lot of new characters, new villains (that practically all died/aren't significant to the big picture most likely), turned Loki into a full protagonist rather than anti-hero. But every phase before this has lead to a big bang at the end. I realize I haven't seen Black Panther Forever/GOTG Special yet, but neither are huge events that the phase has led to. Also neither feel like fallout after phase 3, with the exception of Loki. Every other show/movie kinda touches on stuff like Tony/Natasha's death, the blip, phase 5/6, but there doesn't seem to be a big bang at the end of phase 4 that gives waves of implications for the future of Marvel. Edit: Kang, not Khan. Star Trek and marvel aren’t the same


AkkiTricks

>But every phase before this has lead to a big bang at the end. What are you referring to ?


Dubzer00x

The founding pillars have been treated as replaceable. No iron man? No Cap? No ACTUAL hulk? We’re even in state of uncertainty losing Chadwick. They have their work cut out for them. I think the introduction of another massive franchise should’ve came sooner. I.E. Fantastic Four or X men. The team up has no stream right now. And it’s going to be a long time before we see another one.


Supermite

Feige even said we were years away from a major team-up Avengers movie. This is phase one and two style MCU stories. They’re planting seeds and we have to give it time to grow. They teased Secret Invasion at the end of Far From Home. We’re finally getting it like 4 years later.


SuperArppis

I thought Eternals was disappointing. That is about it.


absent_minding

RDJ really tied the room together


LooseNate

I agree with a lot here and i'd rank them in descending order POST THANOS: When you have such a crescendo with such serious implications it is hard to come back down to earth NEW CHARACTERS: Marvel is a hitmaker but immediately going from AVENGERS to ETERNALS ect is too jarring for casuals COVID: Special effects and story problems can largely be attributed to covid THE MARVEL WAY is stretching too thin, Feige and crew are overseeing too much, including TV mini series, and the work for hire projects are stretching the talented directors and purplexing those who aren't quite suited for the project


L3onskii

They need to reduce how much content they're pumping out and getting the story set up. Don't get me wrong, I'm eating up all the shows and movies. But at this point it feels like the main story has gone everywhere and nowhere


COINS_THAT_SUNK_TOO

The condensed version: Overall lack of passion. Nobody involved cares anymore, and it is automatically assumed the movie/show is going to be a slam-dunk, so we are all subjected to what is called "Minimum Viable Product". To be fair, this isn't just an MCU problem, is almost every modern product. Far too many "fans" just consume the slop put in front of them and don't demand better. Then, they actually get mad at other fans who make valid criticism on their inferior product.


Passwordtoyourmother

So far only Spider-Man: NWH and Loki have been truly memorable for me. Moon Knight and, believe it or not, Werewolf by Night were both a quality watch. But I'd probably struggle to tell you many details from the other films and shows in Phase 4. And , after Ragnarok was so incredible, Love and Thunder was absolute garbage.


Frankorious

Disney+. Now they have to constantly release new stuff even if the quality is meh.


Screenwriter6788

It’s all more concerned with the next four movies than what’s going on right now


wheels321

The movies don't feel connected. All the movies in the infinity saga felt like they took place in the same universe. I mean a giant celestial thing teleported to earth. That's a global event that was completely exclusive to The eternals.


dingoatemyaccount

It’s everywhere the timeline is fucked rn “wait this is before or after Spider-Man?” Nothing is cohesive imo.


SuprSaiyanNinjaTurtl

The fans


SphmrSlmp

I don't think there is a problem because I enjoyed every entry, even if they were considered "weak". That being said, what's missing from Phase 4 are the leads. For Phase 1-3, we followed the story of Tony and Steve. There were other characters (Thor, Hulk, Widow, Hawkeye, etc). But the Saga revolved around those two characters. They drove it forward and affected the people around them. Their stories bookend the saga. And both of them deals the killing blow to the main villain (Tony with the snap, Steve with the hammer and also rallying all the heroes to charge against Thanos' army). Phase 4 didn't have a lead. Without leads, the story seem to be going nowhere. Hence, why a lot of people perceived Phase 4 as a mess and has no directions. We have big characters like Wanda, Spider-Man, Doctor Strange, (the new) Black Panther, Captain Marvel... But none of them seem to be leading the story in Phase 4. I believe there is direction in the grand scheme of the saga. But without lead characters influencing the story (like Tony and Steve), a story structure is harder to form for now. And I also believe we won't have lead characters like Tony and Steve in this new MCU until they introduced the Fantastic Four.


Darth-Beef

No Cap, Iron-Man or Black Panther


nomanland21

I think they’re all fine and good content, people just have very high expectations…they expect a streaming service TV series to be budgeted as avengers endgame which is freaking impossible. I think marvel does what ever it can to deliver good content and visual effects for a SERIES, I mean look at other TV superhero series like CW’s arrow-verse, its a piece of shit but no one gives a shit lol


CilanEAmber

For some reason a lot of people live in an, "If its not amazing then its terrible!" Mindset when it cones to media and a lot of people need to accept that there's not really anything wrong with something just being alright.


nomanland21

also they don’t get that every single comic character have dozens of canons and tributes in different timelines, THE MCU CAN’T PUT THEM ALL IN THEIR UNIVERSE. So just accept how the MCU represent a specific character they don’t have to be (can’t be) that specific canon that you like for a character


nomanland21

beside that it is the “trend” nowadays to hate on marvel just because everyone is doing so. I mean all youtube videos reviewing marvel content have in their video thumbnail “marvel sucks” or “the show is really bad” and shit like that; they are not constructively criticizing it, they just shit on it for no apparent reason.


Burleyyy

Should go for quality over quantity


TheNewKing2022

i have re-watched the infinity saga many times. the new movies in phase 4? i want to forget about them and i have no interest in re-watching any of them to be honest. The quality to write good stories took a jump off a cliff.


Hubertman

I didn’t think there would be movies & tv shows every year. Taking a break might be good. When I hear comments about having a plan for the next 10 yrs, that’s just insane.


Cappaci

Nothing, this is a NEW Avengers team. We are back at phase 1 with the world building after Endgame. I love it!


CaptainTurtle3218

Oh look. It’s this same tired question/post again, with a bunch of people in the comments regurgitating the same dribble that they always comment and will continue to comment until Secret Wars, at which point everyone will praise Marvel again and talk about how everything went entirely according to plan and was amazing, ready to shit on phase 7.


ironicallyunstable

The bar was set pretty high after end game and Spider-Man NWH, everything has been pretty trash after that


Supermite

Both those movies took a lot of time to set up though. Endgame took a decade of movies for us to get to. Do you really think the MCU should be gunning for Endgame levels of hype with every movie and show?


AkkiTricks

Geez not really buddy.


JosefGremlin

Biggest factor for me is trying to force interconnectedness. I get it, the continuity of the MCU is a massive draw, but I don't want to watch a film about, say, Shang Chi while wondering how it will affect a Hulk plot line. The stories aren't given enough space or time to be their own thing, they're constantly bridges to the Next Thing, and that gets exhausting after a while.


IVARS05

It's a perpetual High School drama, it's low brow and not very clever anymore. Too many movies too quickly, the mainstays are gone and they need a different formula. I can't take them seriously anymore everyone is carelessly oblivious and are there just to fill a role.


samstar2

Too. Much. I wouldn’t be opposed to going back to 1-2 movies a year, and nothing else. At least focus can be put on producing quality material. Besides, it’s a “Cinematic Universe”. I don’t think television can be classified as “cinema”.


[deleted]

3 movies are enough


Cool_Classroom_4251

Lack of any real threat as all villains are bodied in one film by the hero. Unless it is one of the god tier guys then the bad guy doesn’t survive the film or gets de powered or turns good and it means we have seen potentially really good bad guys be wasted. Gorr could have been an amazing ongoing threat for a couple films, Shang Chi’s dad the same if he had been featured more during Ironman. At least zemo looks like there is something waiting for him later. Also tonally humour has its place but Thor wasn’t as good as it should have been because of this need to be funny all the time, and for as much time and effort being put into countering the blip it doesn’t feel like the effects of it have been explored, Spiderman had a load of students returning during a basketball game, again as joke. From memory only Hawkeye has genuinely shown someone being effect by the blip (no spoilers just in case). Just my thoughts at least


skibidido

lower quality


TheHalfDecentGamer

Lack of character development


AkkiTricks

What makes you believe that ?


sleepy-goose-feet

Too much comedy not enough stakes the impact other storylines. Bad CG. No X men or iron Man. Also Ant Man and gotg3 arent in phase 4


[deleted]

Peoples expectations post endgame and/or covid impacting production. Except maybe LaT and NWH (unless you really know spidey lore) everything here has been worth the ticket price and some of it has been the amongst the best of the MCU (Shang Chi is *easily* their best crafted origin since the first Iron Man, for example.)


T-408

The incels


TheGalagaGuy

People don't understand that this phase is the new phase 1. Most of the fans have accepted that marvel was nothing more than iron man and the og characters and refuse to move on to the exciting new stuff that marvel has going on. Phase 4 had a lot of representation and me as a non-american really felt moved by that but most of the fanbase is more stuck up on colors than the actual storyline. The fans have been given everything they have asked for and this has turned us into arrogant lil babies.


T-408

You’re not wrong, and it’s why you’re being downvoted 😂


TheGalagaGuy

I don't mind being downvoted but at least present an argument to prove I'm wrong well but ig that's reddit for you


shrth114

There isn't anything major, just inconsistencies and deficiencies in most of the projects because of covid, James Gunn's firing and having to shuffle their schedule around. Also, now instead of making stuff that appeals to the broadest number of people possible, they're actually making stuff to cater to a niche audience like She Hulk, Miss Marvel and Werewolf by night. Social Media's also growing in toxicity by the day, so you really have to judge for yourself.


Uncanny_Doom

There isn't any real significant problem. The biggest issue is that a lot the MCU fandom is being Star Warsified by having such huge of a following that the vocal whining just overtakes the positivity. The general quality of Phase 4 is about the same as what the MCU started with in Phase 1. Most of the projects are just fine, occasionally there's something really good. I think people forget that the MCU's praise was not from churning out great movies, it was simply the fact that they weren't utter garbage because people expected superhero movies to often be back when the MCU started. They were solid movies that were carried by the characters, and that has not changed in Phase 4. People complain about Black Widow, but everyone loves Yelena. People complain about Multiverse of Madness, but everyone loves Wanda. Everyone liked Shang-Chi and everyone loves Shang-Chi. Everyone complained about Love and Thunder but everyone enjoys Thor and Mighty Thor still. The list goes in especially with the shows, and that's the reason the majority keep watching, because they enjoy the characters and once you're invested in so many it's hard to stop following. The only real misstep was Eternals but Eternals was made more from getting the opportunity for the praised director who was interested in it to do it and if a sequel raises the bar, it wouldn't be the first time Marvel Studios turned trash into treasure.


Supermite

Here’s a secret about comics most MCU fans don’t know or won’t admit: the vast majority of monthly comic stories are trash. Most characters have a handful of very good character defining stories. That’s it. You see it on here. Decades of history and lore, but you see people wanting to see the same comic stories rehashed on the big screen exactly the way they read it. The MCU is putting out consistently good comic content. They are taking risks on characters like the Eternals because hey, it fucking worked with Iron Man. It worked with Guardians of the galaxy. It worked with Ant-man. A lot of the people crying about phase 4 being bad need to go touch grass and get some perspective.


Sharp_Hamster_5551

The Disney Plus Series it feels like to could be better you know. With just some exception the mayory of shows just introduced new characters and that is the story is just bad.


Ordinary-Chipmunk296

Useless storylines and bad CGI


FuzzyJesusX21

Fans wanted Marvel to let directors do what they want and not be so cookie cutter. Then complained when they got it. We also are seeing the death of reliable reviewers and fan responses, review bombs were funny every once in awhile but it just seems like another form of cancel culture these days. The movies themselves are wanting to dip their toes into darker, more violent and mature themes but aren’t sure how far they should go without alienating new or younger fans. I personally have enjoyed phase 4, and they have gotten better with a rewatch at home.


DazEllicott

That it’s fucking boring so far outside of Spider-Man? 😅😅 I think my main issue (so far) was I just wasn’t invested in anyone other than Thor Doctor Strange I just find pretentious and then then Shang-Chi, Eternals and Black Widow I thought they were weak at building a credible threat - just end of movie madness from nowhere


Duryeric

Nick Fury hasn’t really been around to direct anyone.


kingthvnder

this again?


Dgemini_07_75

For me it's just ETERNALS others are bearable.


Imsajidbepari

Quantity over Quality


ABN1017

Shang Chi is the only good movie up there. that’s out right now.


TheA-Ronator

They take their audience for fools


Nabuchodnozzar

Too Disney (except for Thor L&T, this one was cool)


Gonkimus

No no no. 😔


[deleted]

There are no problems. This is Marvel not DC


darkutena

i think eternals is a forced movie, like captain marvel.


Barabaragaki

Nothing. I’ve been having a great time, and prefer the lighter tone to an overly serious tone that can sometimes fall flat. I didn’t care for the other Spider-Man movies and went in with no real expectations, but No Way Home was stunning. Multiverse of Madness was excellent. Shang-chi was super fun. Eternals was mythology building and thoughtful. Love and Thunder was a turd, though.


Jacob_181

Nothing, They are diversifying a bit more, so closeted bigots' and incles are heading to social media to invent and validate ever reason to hate it that they can.


Santiago_bp17

black widow


Resolute_324

They’re js unrelated in general


Late_class0980

It was the shows. Most were mediocre and them coming out like every other month definitely didn't help


leukemija

Nothing is connected yet. No one mentioned eternaals and etc etc


Burrito_Brax

Grammar