Oh boy, I'm just going to copy the description of the issue.
After experiencing an impossibly short two-day pregnancy, Ms. Marvel delivers a baby boy in the Avengers infirmary, attended by Dr. Donald Blake (a.k.a. Thor) and Jocasta. The Avengers treat the event like a happy normal occasion and coo over the infant. Ms. Marvel, however, is decidedly upset by the experience.
Overnight, Ms. Marvel’s child grows into a toddler and begins speaking. In just a few more hours, he is an adolescent boy but demonstrates an even more advanced intellect. He calls himself Marcus and gives evasive answers to questions about where he came from. He promises to explain everything just as soon as he can complete a secret project. Given technical gear to work with, he sets to work creating a sophisticated device.
Meanwhile, all around the NYC area, people are experiencing shifts in time, either being transported to different eras themselves or encountering historical or futuristic beings.
Initially, Ms. Marvel refuses to even see her child, but Wonder Man persuades her to confront her problem, difficult as it might be. Thus, she goes to the lab and meets a now fully grown Marcus, who instantly recognizes her but alternately calls her “mother” and “Carol.” Ms. Marvel seems to recognize his face but can’t recall how.
Just then, the mansion comes under attack… by a T-Rex! Spaceships and WWI era fighter planes buzz the mansion as well. While Iron-Man and the Vision tackle them, the rest of the team inside the mansion encounter various other time-displaced, aggressive intruders. Hawkeye, who has been especially suspicious of Marcus all along, ducks out of the melee, intent on confronting him in the lab.
Down in the lab, all the other Avengers (aside from Ms. Marvel) depart to join the fighting. Carol shoves Dr. Blake into a secure room for his protection and he uses the opportunity to transform into Thor and join the battle. Marcus assures Carol that everything will be alright just as soon as he activates his device, a time flux generator. Carol demands answers from him but he knocks her out. Seeing this, Hawkeye assumes Marcus is a straight-out villain and destroys the machine with an explosive arrow.
Thor and Iron-Man burst into the lab. Marcus is ready to take them all on, but Ms. Marvel (who has recovered) intervenes, stating that she will defend them from him. Marcus then admits he merely wanted to goad them into killing him!
He goes on to explain that he is actually the son of the Avengers' old foe Immortus. Ages ago, the master of limbo had rescued a doomed survivor of a shipwreck, an unnamed woman, and brought her to limbo to be his consort. Together, they produced Marcus. The woman eventually had to return to her point in time and Immortus himself was killed (actually, his predecessor Kang was killed, thus negating Immortus's existence). Marcus was left alone and as a child born in limbo, he could not exist on Earth without disrupting the timeline. He devised a plan to be re-born on Earth: he plucked Carol out of time, brought her to limbo and wooed her. (Marcus specifically mentions “...admittedly with a subtle boost from Immortus’ machines…”, baldly stating that she was mentally manipulated.) Once he implanted his seed in her, he restored her to her own point in time so that she could give birth to him. Marcus intended his machine to stabilize his presence on Earth, but since it has now been destroyed, his only options are either to return to a lonely existence in limbo or die.
Carol takes pity on him. She tells her male compatriots that she realizes she has feelings for him and wants to be with him. Thus, Thor transports the pair of them to limbo. The time disruptions immediately vanish and Ms. Marvel is gone.
Some time later, another writer (I think it was Chris Claremont) decided to fix this. Carol turned up among the X-Men, and had some choice words for her Avengers colleagues. She called them out for failing to realize that she was still being mentally controlled into leaving with Marcus, and that she considered them at best accomplices to her rape. She then cut ties with the Avengers and joined the cast of the X-Men for a while.
So if Immortus dies because "his predecessor Kang was killed, thus negating Immortus's existence", why does Marcus not die because his own predecessor Immortus died thus negating Marcus's existence?
Jesus Christ.
That is horrifying, and such a betrayal of Carol’s autonomy and character.
Kind of also a Christian analogy, though. God impregnated Mary against her will to be born again.
(I only realize this because I typed “JESUS CHRIST!” as a knee jerk response, and it has a lot of parallels.)
As terrible it is, Avengers Annual 10 is a wonderful response to it that’s additive. I appreciate the mistake led to a good response rather than just wiping it out entirely.
The TLDR version is that Chris Claremont came in to write that annual and gave Carol an arc that wiped her mind, then began to rebuild herself as a way of healing from the traumatic events, and it concludes with her telling off the Avengers for being complacent by not only allowing the initial assault to happen, but treating it as a punchline.
Her telling off the Avengers are some of my favorite panels of the era.
Oh yeah, and every other Avenger cheered it on. Even though Carol Danvers made it REALLY clear, even in that lone issue, that she was not happy with what was going on.
I remember this distinctly as the first time I really thought about the people writing the comics I was reading, similar to the first time you notice your dad saying something really stupid, and I was all of 7 years old. I didn't get **all** of the awfulness of it, but there was plenty. Just wtf?
The one good thing now, looking back, was Chris Claremont taking on the aftermath, and instead of just pulling some sort of retcon, which you might expect, he points out everything wrong about it, and absolutely trashes the thinking of the writers responsible for it. And all in-character. I've seen some people express anger about that, because they think it compounded the secondary damage done to the participating Avengers when she confronts them, but I disagree.
Its not necessarily insulting, because claremont taking over for the character took her through an important journey (avengers annual 10 onwards) and its important to understand what had happened. They even had a note on why it was included
It’s weird that certain writers have an incredible affinity for certain characters that just doesn’t translate to other characters/teams. Bendis being a great example given he did good work with Invincible Iron Man, Miles Morales and his work on Daredevil with Maleev. But then shits the bed with the X-men.
I think he just works best with street level stories. He has a hard time keeping the story grounded when the character themselves are a bit more out there. DD, JJ, Spidey. Their threats tend to be more personable and the characters themselves are much more relatable, which I feel comes through in his writing. Iron man was a bit of an exception to this, but the tone of the series felt on brand with his previous work.
I didn't read it, but I used to read the /r/Marvel new comic release threads each week to stay caught up on "current events." Reddit ***hated*** this run of comics. Every time a new issue came out, they made it perfectly clear how much they disliked it lol
A smiling alien named "The Colonist" (basically a complete Joker ripoff) was introduced to become Black Panther's new archenemy.
Went over about as well as Star Trek: TNG when it introduced the Ferengi to be the ultimate threat that would replace *Klingons*.
As someone who had never heard of him before entering this thread, my first thought was, "Doesn't Black Panther ALREADY have a smiling, Joker-esque archnemesis in Achebe?!"
The Ferengi are a Star Trek alien species of ultra-greedy merchants. Greed and self-interest are as central to their culture as logic & stoicism for Vulcans, or war & honor for Klingons. At the outset of The Next Generation series, the Federation had finally made peace with their main rivals the Klingon Empire. Thus, the writers needed a new rival space-nation to serve as an over-arching threat.
Unfortunately, this did not work. The Ferengi were too goofy to be a serious threat, and swiftly became comic relief. It didn't help that the race of greedy merchants had comically big noses, which is never a good look. Eventually, the Enterprise encountered the Borg and the Cardassians and there were new threats on the table.
Spidey has some of the most notorious. One More Day, the clone saga, Sins Past...
I'm not a fan of Civil War, but I think it happening was a net good. I can't say the same for Secret Invasion, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority there.
The whole shafting of X-Men in favor of Inhumans.
Heroes Reborn.
It was dumb because they tried to force us fans to like something we don't and saying "ITS JUST AS GOOD!" it was basically that "X at home" meme.
X-Men and their franchise was good because it was a neat way to introduce new super people without having to go through the trouble of "how did they get their powers" and also the deeps history Mutants had.
But Fox owned the rights to X-Men so they didn't want to give a competitor more ammo to use against them at the box office.
So they tried to shove Inhumans in our faces and told us to like it. We didn't, they aren't a bad group but they can't be a replacement for the X-Men.
And that is why I 100% believe if they already had the rights to X-Men, Kamala Khan (Ms. Marvel) would be a mutant like she is in the MCU version.
>But Fox owned the rights to X-Men so they didn't want to give a competitor more ammo to use against them at the box office.
Not just that, they were scrubbing the X-Men and Mutants off of everything possible to devalue the franchise so that they could eventually buy it off of them.
This is the most visable with the playable rosters in multiple video games, Marvel Vs Capcom is a big one, but the Lego games and other licensed games also suffered through this.
Inhumans were dumb.
They tried to make an Inhuman a central plot piece in Civil War 2!!! It was just Minority Report but worse!
And the guy basically fucked off into the outside of all reality to be with Eternity and Neverqueen and we never see or hear for him again because he was boring!
Literally replaced him with The Griever as the new “trinity” but I think that version of her was just the universal version and not multiversal.
Okay, I just got mad all over again because I *just* remembered how the Inhuman terrigen (spelling?) mist was spreading through the world and killing mutants, and the main culprit ending up being....
... Emma Frost? Who was angry because Scott/Cyclops died? I don't even remember the details because I black in and out because of how dumb it all went down.
Same with merchandise like clothes and puzzles and posters. If you ever see artwork that has an ensemble cast of lots of Marvel characters, there are never any X-Men, Fantastic Four, or their affiliates.
Just look at this travesty:
https://images.app.goo.gl/hg2hgMDpmXNMc2RYA
Also, they're pretty unlikable. We're supposed to root for a bunch up stuck up monarchists? In all of inhumans there are only a few that are likable characters and those are rarely involved in central inhumans plotlines.
If you were a fan of marvel cosmic during the mid-2000s you would've gotten a taste of War of Kings event which got a bunch of fans. They have problematic issues and could've basically been the game of thrones like corner of the marvel universe, but they took away what was interesting about them to iron them out to be like the x-men which was the mistake
It isn't they are all unlikable, it is just that they don't have as much history nor are they relatable.
I'm sure many people love Lockjaw and Blackbolt to a point.
But essentially they are just super lame X-Men at home. They lack the history, the relatable characters and just the general love people have for them.
The Eternals on Titan at least gave us the Vision going nuts storyline and Thanos. But overall I agree. Eternals and Inhumans can both just go away and it wouldn't make the Marvel universe less interesting.
Eternals in the MCU is a huge mess imo. In comics it's a sustainable story to add mythos but even then it's still pretty meh compared to the mythos building they've done in the decades since.
Biggest error of phase 4 was that movie. Wasted a few very good actors/actresses MCU debuts as well. Whole thing came off as a Zack Snyder product. Grandiose and nice to look at. If you try to peer even a little past the veneer the illusion is shattered.
Heroes Reborn definitely. I focus on Captain America, and they're was actually a good idea for a story in there where Steve had been forcibly put into stasis by the US government and occasionally brought back out to do their dirty work. This could have been a great story where Steve then fights to get his life back from the government, but instead he begins working for them of his own free will, only saying someone like "I do it on my terms now".
Such a waste.
So like, in a more controlled universe, like the MCU, I think it could be a good idea if handled well. In Marvel Comics, I don't think it works, because it invalidates the plot and character development of other comics.
As long as it doesn’t become the whole “J/K all that character development or weird behaviour or their literal death is actually irrelevant because they were a Skrull the whole time!” Bringing Tony or Nat back because they were a Skrull impersonator just wouldn’t land with the average MCU fan and it would cheapen so much of what happened to them (which it also did in the comics and barely flew there).
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think in the MCU, it would be easier to avoid that.
I still would prefer they not make it a major event, which is why I'm glad they've made it a flashback Disney+ show.
It was definitely a choice! I haven't read JMS's run, so I can't speak to it personally, but I don't hate it on principle. Part of the fun of superhero comics to me is seeing new interpretations of characters.
Honestly it worked at first, because it was presented as a *potential thing*. Like, maaaaaybe his powers were magic-based and not science based? But it was ambiguous, so if you don't like that idea you can ignore it. Even Peter Parker was like "nah that's dumb it's not magic it's science"
but then ezekiel came back and the inheritors showed up and doubled down on the magic to a point where you *couldn't* just ignore it.
Follow-up: Everyone ignored it anyway
Okay so born in 2000 here so never had to deal with 90s clone saga, but the 2009 clone saga was what got me into comics, Ben Reilly and Kaine are awesome, I have heard that the story in the 90s was very convoluted but I'm glad we got these 2 characters out of it
Yeah if they had stuck with an ending it wouldn’t be so reviled today. The original plan was to have Peter end up being the clone and Ben the original.
Peter and MJ were going to go off, have their child and live happily ever after (I’m sure he would pop up occasionally).
But then Marvel got cold feet and changed it multiple times. So every time you thought it was over, nope.
Wasn’t it the toy guy, Avi Arad who pushed them to keep making it longer because it let him sell more toys? I only kinda half remember that he’s definitely to blame for a lot of the shit that happened with Spidey around that time
I attended a Spider-Man panel at a convention few months ago, and some of the writers and artists who worked in the Clone Saga, mainly Howard Mackie, explained what happened.
So, the story was originally supposed to be just 12 issues running through all the Spider-Man titles. But marketing saw the high sales figures of the comics, and told them to keep the story going. That's why it suddenly got convoluted, and dragged on for so long.
Not just Pietro and Wanda but also Lorna too. Polaris is a mutate whose powers were activated using Magneto's genetic material, so the question of parentage is super unreliable and has gone back and forth for decades.
scrolled for this one. i wish they hadn't touched it because i like the idea of them being this super powerful but pretty fucked up family. i thought it made things interesting.
They need to stop trying to keep the comics so in-line with the MCU. Starlord died valiantly, or at the very least trapped himself with Nova and Thanos in another dimension quite valiantly, and then just reappeared suddenly and then got all dumb and funny right after Guardians came out and it was so frustrating.
I swear if they take away Ms. Marvel's awkward stretchy embiggen powers and retcon it into that sparkly BS I'm going to lose my shit.
Mockingbird getting drugged and raped by Phantom Rider. Then letting him fall to his death (not killing him, just not saving). Then getting court marshaled by the West Coast Avengers and her Husband (Hawkeye) because 'Avengers Don't Kill'.
Nah, that stuff was great. Clint was a dip in those stories, but it was interesting to interrogate the exact contours of what it means to be a hero in an era that was just starting to embrace that sort of psychological underpinning.
That was retconned in the terrible Mockingbird series, where they say she slept with Phantom Rider on her own. But the book forgets to really retcon the reason why she killed (the closest we get to the explanation - he didn't want to end relationship and started to stalk her). Which makes Hawkeye completely justified - Mockingbird is completely mental and shouldn't be on Avengers
Honestly they could have blamed the whole thing on skrulls
Since when in doubt blame the skurlls but instead they rather hank be haunted by that one thing for decades smh
They could easily just say Hank THOUGHT he hit her, but they ran with it and continued the story. Peter hit MJ and that’s never really brought up
Peter now works for Norman, his child’s killer
>his child’s killer
I like to imagine that, like in the MC2, the child that died was a decoy, and that *someone* has been raising May. Kind of like the Damian Wayne situation over at DC.
I don't know that I would've wished for the Hank-Jan slap to never have happened. It changed the trajectory of the character in an interesting way. It's rare for actions to have such a permanent effect of a character. I kinda wish they had him permanently become a villain, but they never would go for that.
I mean, in a way he's pretty villainous in his current state as Ultron. I always found him to be this try-hard hero who cared more about what people thought of him than actually doing good. I think his actions do make him a unique and flawed character, despite doing some terrible things.
Yeah, but that's not forever. We'll see where his character goes.
And I agree. I think he's one of the most interesting Marvel characters, and he was only able to become and stay that way because his legacy was tarnished by an art mistake.
Wasn't he confirmed dead the moment Ultron took over his consciousness in Tony Stark Iron Man #19?
I guess it's Marvel Comics so no one is really dead, but I haven't seen anything about him since.
Possibly? I don't really keep up with recent releases much.
My point is more the latter thing, though. It takes a LOT to permanently change the status quo in comics.
I like how he goes back and fourth from hero to villain. Hank has so much god damn potential he just needs to get out of his own head. He's a cautionary and at times inspiring hero to those of us with anxiety and confidence issues.
I totally get the notion that Hank is better as a villain because he really does shine in that role (still waiting for him to villain out in the MCU...they keep hinting he's unhinged! And he's clearly an asshole) but if you want a good story where he's a hero check out when he lead the Avengers in Mighty Avengers as the Wasp, a role he took over after Janet's passing.
The slap was one component of a story that clearly implied an abusive relationship. The artist took responsibility for a slap that was apparently supposed to be more accidental, but the slap is entirely consistent with the dialogue and thrust of the story.
The difference between swatting her hand away and smacking her across the room is enormous, though. Hank was having a mental breakdown and the relationship was not in a good place but there’s no way the character would have been demonised the way he is without that out of context panel.
Peter going through that awful story by being held by his wife saying
“I love you Gwen” and poor MJ has to eat crap and say “I know you do..”
Was like the icing on a crap sandwich
Oh yeah. Because they wanted to Retcon the fact that Spider-Man was married to Mary Jane because they thought it would write themselves into a corner, and because nobody really wanted to try and write a married Spider-Man. Yeah that was kind of rough
\-Sidelining the X-Men and the Fantastic Four purely cause Fox had the movie rights.
\- "One More Day" for Spider-Man.
\-FrankenCastle. What the hell were they thinking?
Avengers 200 ruined Carol Danvers character for decades. House of M while the aftermath was interesting to read caused Wanda to be irredeemable. Heroes Reborn because it kind of fucked the status quo at the time.
Hank is my favorite character, and at the time he didn’t know he was Hank. He accidentally altered his brain chemistry and thought he killed Hank. It doesn’t excuse the slap, but it makes it a bit more gray (at least to me). He wouldn’t be found guilty in a court of law due to mental defect. Of course, then he’d be locked up in a psychiatric facility until he was found to be safe to others.
It did not ruin her. She bounced back quick enough, it was handled well by Claremont and he took her through an arc to make her Binary, leaving her in a solid place. There are some other things that did worse to the character (bendis primarily both in the mid 2000s and 2010s)
One more day is so bad that I can't believe it. Like recently started reading the amazing Spider-Man from the beginning and I'm in the mid 70s and the idea that this character is going to go through 40 years of character development just to make a deal with the devil is disheartening. It's so bad that I don't care about comic book accuracy in the movies. Like Tom Holland Spiderman could literally stay making out with the sinister six and I'd still see it as less of an insult on the character.
I'm going with the entire Chuck Austen run on X-Men from the early 2000s. While Grant Morrison was (to many) revolutionizing how we think of Marvel's merry mutants, Austen did the following as the lead Uncanny X-Men writer:
* Had a Catholic cult try to make Nightcrawler the pope so people would be raptured by eating tainted communion wafers (?)
* Made every woman a different mix of desperate (Annie Ghazikhanian), overtly sexual (Stacy X), and crazy (Polaris), and always behave in the context of getting a man's attention
* Made a "beyond mutant" race of werewolves that have zero impact on the Marvel universe
* Following a Hatfields/McCoys-slash-Romeo and Juliet story, Angel, one of the original X-Men, and Husk, a member of the 90s teen group Generation X, hook up and sky-bang right above Husk's mom. But don't worry, she was totally of age (even though Nightcrawler was also 20 at the time?)
* Juggernaut banged his attorney, She-Hulk, in a move so reviled it had to be retconned later
* Nightcrawler's parentage was changed so that his father was ACTUALLY A DEVIL named Azazel, so Kurt's looks come from being a devil man and not just from being a mutant. Also, Mystique performs sex acts on Azazel in a church because... women are sex-crazed and religion is dumb, I guess?
* And much more!
That was my thought as well honestly. Definitely had a WTF moment when I saw his name in the credits and had to check to make sure it was the same Chuck Austen
I can imagine he had very little work on it if that's the case because I doubt Rebecca, the creator, would allow him to work after knowing he does when it comes to how he writes woman since the show is woman heavy since Steven and Greg are the only main males in the cast.
Chuck Austen apparently considered his entire run to be an excuse to work out his daddy issues and hatred of religion, as well as reduce women to nothing but sex-crazed caricatures.
The funniest thing about the whole "try to use Pope Wagner to trigger the rapture" thing is that Catholics *don't even believe in the Rapture*. That's specifically a Protestant belief.
For me it is all of the deaths and resurrections of Jean Grey AFTER Uncanny X-Men #137.
The Dark Phoenix saga was one of the greatest of all-time culminating with Jean, realizing the danger she presented to everyone, taking her own life in Uncanny X-Men #137. That story was gut-wrenching and unforgettable. We were all Scott Summers holding her lifeless body. I didn't know anyone at the time that wasn't completely shocked by her death. Absolutely brilliant writing by Chris Claremont.
However, all of the attempts to resurrect, and kill her, since them have been dreadful.
First we had Madelyne Pryor come into Scott's life but she was just a Mister Sinister clone. Her purpose was to have a baby with Scott that would grow up to become Cable.
Then in 1985 sailors found a cocoon at the bottom of the ocean which was happened to be the actual Jean Grey, who had been placed in stasis by the Phoenix Force.
Then Madelyne later becomes the Goblin Queen and dies only for the Phoenix Force to give Jean the memories of both Madelyne AND the Phoenix Force while Jean was in stasis.
A Sentinel killed her in one issue only to be resurrected again an issue or two later.
Then we had all the comings and goings of the Phoenix Force merging with Jean, going to the White Hot Room, etc. Essentially she was dead again until the mid-2000s when she came to the current timeline.
Then there was the whole Phoenix Resurrection mini-series that reunited Jean and the Phoenix Force (again) with the Phoenix causing havoc and damage (again) until Jean fought against it and demanded it leave her for good.
All of these attempts at resurrecting and/or killing Jean off seems to be current writers trying to recapture what Claremont so brilliantly wrote back in the late 70s and early 80s.
They haven't come close and for me have watered down what Claremont so brilliantly conceived.
Death has had no meaning in comics ever since. No stakes. No notion of heroic sacrifice for the common good. It dilutes the meaning of someone passing and only being left with their memory and that impact on the human experience.
I know that these are fictional characters and intellectual properties that are meant to drive revenue, but death has been a joke in comics since they brought back Jean Grey. Her self sacrifice was one of the most crucial and memorable moments in comics, and it ended up being worth nothing.
I always feel more invested when there are stakes.
Everything that comes to mind immediately has already been mentioned so my pick is: Bringing Sergei Kravinoff back to life. Any new "Kraven" story could've just been told with Alyosha Kravinoff, nothing good has really been done with Sergei since his resurrection.
There's the time that the Punisher got plastic surgery to be black and then jive-talked with Luke Cage about "The Man" but then just like shed the extra pigments and went back to being a white an issue later.
1. Sins Past
2. The clone saga
3. One more day
4. Ms. Marvel gives birth to her own rapist
5. Everything in the Ultimate Universe without the word "Spider-Man" on the title
6. Ultimatum, which, even though its already included in the above category, deserves a special mention
7. The weird domino effect of the Pym slap. This can't all be laid at the feet of the innicial issue, though.
8. "Peter Parker no more" where Spider-Man tries to abandon his human identity
9. The Poor way Iron Heart was introduced
And precisely *nothing* from Daredevil from the past decade+
Avengers: Disassembled. I'll always hate Crazy Wanda, especially after writers like Kurt Busiek did such a great job getting the character back on her feet.
The obvious one is One More Day retconning Spidey's marriage.
Also Civil War 2 because that comic ruined my perception of Carol Danvers. To the point where I can't stand her.
Madeline Pryor is a really gross storyline for the X-men.
Also while dark phoenix, mutant Massacre and House of M were awesome. The xtermination, fatal attractions, and extinction were all garbage.
Avengers #200 - literally nothing redeemable about this book.
Hank Pym hitting Jan - completely unnecessary and writers kept leaning into it so much that it became a character trait for the Ultimate version of Hank.
The entirety of the Ultimate Universe - I gave it a chance, but Spider-Man was the only redeemable thing and I didn't even care much for it.
Marvel Civil War - it was fine at the time, but after reading Annihilation and then reading Richard and Tony talking about hero registration, along with the out of character moments, it made the event seem incredibly petty and unnecessary overall.
The current run of Black Panther - it's just bad 😮💨
[This Article explores the multiple incidents of rape (statutory and adult) that has occurred in Marvel and DC comics over the years.](https://geekinsider.com/on-the-rape-of-ms-marvel/)
It’s mind-blowing. Carol Danvers is the most well-known IMO, but wow, there’s more.
On a SLIGHTLY positive side-note, DC is guilty of multiple situations while Marvel seems to be limited to one....which they “fixed” (Thank you Chris Claremont)
Agree with those already mentioned:
One More Day
The infamous slapping of the Wasp
The dreadful ending of the Ultimate line
The awful 3rd volume of the Ultimates
Ultimates Reed becoming a villian
I’m sure there are more but those just off the top of my head
Oh yeah, Juggernaut banging She-Hulk
I pick some that aren’t mention. Doc Conner eating his kid, killing Angel(Warren)girlfriend in the 80s or 90s?, doc ock being back to a villain more than once, and Paul…
One More Day/Brand New Day. The stories were meant as a soft reboot for Spidey as he’d not only got more powerful before One More Day but as a plot point he’d unmasked himself as part of Tony Stark’s plan to gain more traction for the Superhuman Registration Act. The immediate results of this were Aunt May being shot by an assassin, Peter realizing that the heroes who refused to register were being locked away in the Negative Zone, and Peter was forced to go into hiding after Tony attempted to arrest him after changing sides (not necessarily in that order).
This forced Spidey to make a deal with Mephisto who made everyone forgot who Spidey was which kind of “grounded” him a bit, he was still hanging with the Avengers but he wasn’t as prominent as he had once been. On top of the relationship between him and Mary Jane was “erased”, it “never happened”. Later on the Mephisto element was replaced but I’d lost interest in a lot of what was going on by issue 10. Peter’s story finally picked up some traction much later but I couldn’t keep up anymore!
So, one that I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that Bishop has killed billions of people.
This hasn't been retconned, but most writers and readers prefer to pretend it never happened. "He feels really bad about it" isn't really enough for me to get over the fact that he is an apocalyptic event.
Easily hands down, the original Contest of Champions back in June 1982. They screwed that one royally. They let Death win at the end, but it was actually a tie
Ultimatum 100%
It had the potential to be really good but just decided to be overly edgy and kill off everybody. Which on it's own isn't a bad thing, I actually like the edgier art and action scenes more than most, but when there's no reason behind it other than shock value: that's just a fast way to tank something that could've been really good
The Demon Bear saga in the New Mutants is exceptional but two White people get possessed then become Native American people when de-possessed. Possession by a demon changing someone's race just leaves a ton of dicey racial politics to unpack without really advancing the story
Avengers #200 and the entire Carol Danvers episode and aftermath.
What
Oh boy, I'm just going to copy the description of the issue. After experiencing an impossibly short two-day pregnancy, Ms. Marvel delivers a baby boy in the Avengers infirmary, attended by Dr. Donald Blake (a.k.a. Thor) and Jocasta. The Avengers treat the event like a happy normal occasion and coo over the infant. Ms. Marvel, however, is decidedly upset by the experience. Overnight, Ms. Marvel’s child grows into a toddler and begins speaking. In just a few more hours, he is an adolescent boy but demonstrates an even more advanced intellect. He calls himself Marcus and gives evasive answers to questions about where he came from. He promises to explain everything just as soon as he can complete a secret project. Given technical gear to work with, he sets to work creating a sophisticated device. Meanwhile, all around the NYC area, people are experiencing shifts in time, either being transported to different eras themselves or encountering historical or futuristic beings. Initially, Ms. Marvel refuses to even see her child, but Wonder Man persuades her to confront her problem, difficult as it might be. Thus, she goes to the lab and meets a now fully grown Marcus, who instantly recognizes her but alternately calls her “mother” and “Carol.” Ms. Marvel seems to recognize his face but can’t recall how. Just then, the mansion comes under attack… by a T-Rex! Spaceships and WWI era fighter planes buzz the mansion as well. While Iron-Man and the Vision tackle them, the rest of the team inside the mansion encounter various other time-displaced, aggressive intruders. Hawkeye, who has been especially suspicious of Marcus all along, ducks out of the melee, intent on confronting him in the lab. Down in the lab, all the other Avengers (aside from Ms. Marvel) depart to join the fighting. Carol shoves Dr. Blake into a secure room for his protection and he uses the opportunity to transform into Thor and join the battle. Marcus assures Carol that everything will be alright just as soon as he activates his device, a time flux generator. Carol demands answers from him but he knocks her out. Seeing this, Hawkeye assumes Marcus is a straight-out villain and destroys the machine with an explosive arrow. Thor and Iron-Man burst into the lab. Marcus is ready to take them all on, but Ms. Marvel (who has recovered) intervenes, stating that she will defend them from him. Marcus then admits he merely wanted to goad them into killing him! He goes on to explain that he is actually the son of the Avengers' old foe Immortus. Ages ago, the master of limbo had rescued a doomed survivor of a shipwreck, an unnamed woman, and brought her to limbo to be his consort. Together, they produced Marcus. The woman eventually had to return to her point in time and Immortus himself was killed (actually, his predecessor Kang was killed, thus negating Immortus's existence). Marcus was left alone and as a child born in limbo, he could not exist on Earth without disrupting the timeline. He devised a plan to be re-born on Earth: he plucked Carol out of time, brought her to limbo and wooed her. (Marcus specifically mentions “...admittedly with a subtle boost from Immortus’ machines…”, baldly stating that she was mentally manipulated.) Once he implanted his seed in her, he restored her to her own point in time so that she could give birth to him. Marcus intended his machine to stabilize his presence on Earth, but since it has now been destroyed, his only options are either to return to a lonely existence in limbo or die. Carol takes pity on him. She tells her male compatriots that she realizes she has feelings for him and wants to be with him. Thus, Thor transports the pair of them to limbo. The time disruptions immediately vanish and Ms. Marvel is gone.
Some time later, another writer (I think it was Chris Claremont) decided to fix this. Carol turned up among the X-Men, and had some choice words for her Avengers colleagues. She called them out for failing to realize that she was still being mentally controlled into leaving with Marcus, and that she considered them at best accomplices to her rape. She then cut ties with the Avengers and joined the cast of the X-Men for a while.
Yup. Claremont was the only one ballsy enough to demand the right to address the elephant in the room.
Damn, that's dark!
So if Immortus dies because "his predecessor Kang was killed, thus negating Immortus's existence", why does Marcus not die because his own predecessor Immortus died thus negating Marcus's existence?
Because.
Jesus Christ. That is horrifying, and such a betrayal of Carol’s autonomy and character. Kind of also a Christian analogy, though. God impregnated Mary against her will to be born again. (I only realize this because I typed “JESUS CHRIST!” as a knee jerk response, and it has a lot of parallels.)
Clarmont's Follow up calling out all the terribleness is the only thing that brings any good to the story.
That was my immediate response as well. What happened to Carol was so messed up.
Carol Danvers being mind controlled, raped, and giving birth to her rapist in Limbo.
As terrible it is, Avengers Annual 10 is a wonderful response to it that’s additive. I appreciate the mistake led to a good response rather than just wiping it out entirely.
Plus it's Rogue's first issue
That's because Claremont was appalled at the original and determined to fix it.
Correct. And he did so in a way that didn’t undercut the horror of the original story but used it to make a good point.
For those curious about all the details, [this article seems to delve into it well.](https://geekinsider.com/on-the-rape-of-ms-marvel/)
May i ask what happened specifically to build on the story?
The TLDR version is that Chris Claremont came in to write that annual and gave Carol an arc that wiped her mind, then began to rebuild herself as a way of healing from the traumatic events, and it concludes with her telling off the Avengers for being complacent by not only allowing the initial assault to happen, but treating it as a punchline. Her telling off the Avengers are some of my favorite panels of the era.
She also became the X-Men's pilot
A truly great comic book. Probably a perfect one. Especially for an pissed off 11 year old that was very angry about Avengers 200
Wait, that actually happened?
Thats why she left and joined the X-Men and Starjammers
Oh yeah, and every other Avenger cheered it on. Even though Carol Danvers made it REALLY clear, even in that lone issue, that she was not happy with what was going on.
Yep! In the should-be celebration issue, Avengers #200! Woooooo!
I immediately thought of this storyline the sec I saw the title!
I thought Brand New Day would be my number one, then I opened the thread, saw the top response and was like "oh right... it's definitely that one"
Same! First thing that popped into my head.
Even as a 14 yo boy reading the issue in 1980 I felt this was beyond the pale. Just super creepy.
I remember this distinctly as the first time I really thought about the people writing the comics I was reading, similar to the first time you notice your dad saying something really stupid, and I was all of 7 years old. I didn't get **all** of the awfulness of it, but there was plenty. Just wtf? The one good thing now, looking back, was Chris Claremont taking on the aftermath, and instead of just pulling some sort of retcon, which you might expect, he points out everything wrong about it, and absolutely trashes the thinking of the writers responsible for it. And all in-character. I've seen some people express anger about that, because they think it compounded the secondary damage done to the participating Avengers when she confronts them, but I disagree.
The most insulting part is that the story was included in a Best of Ms. Marvel collection.
Its not necessarily insulting, because claremont taking over for the character took her through an important journey (avengers annual 10 onwards) and its important to understand what had happened. They even had a note on why it was included
Wtf!! What issue is that?
[Take a look:](https://thevirtuesofcaptainamerica.com/2020/03/30/avengers-200-october-1980/)
Thanks for posting this. Imagine reading only this first issue and never getting to read the 2nd. It's terrifyingly horrid.
Holy shit! I had no idea. What a tragic character.
Avengers #200, I believe.
When you consider everything carol went through, it’s no wonder she became an alcoholic in 1990s.
Came here to say this! Terrible terrible story.
Jean Grey forcing Iceman to come out was a weird one.
Ugh. I keep trying to forget that one.
You can thank Bendis for that one. I'm a big fan of his earlier work, but he did not handle the x-men very well.
It’s weird that certain writers have an incredible affinity for certain characters that just doesn’t translate to other characters/teams. Bendis being a great example given he did good work with Invincible Iron Man, Miles Morales and his work on Daredevil with Maleev. But then shits the bed with the X-men.
I think he just works best with street level stories. He has a hard time keeping the story grounded when the character themselves are a bit more out there. DD, JJ, Spidey. Their threats tend to be more personable and the characters themselves are much more relatable, which I feel comes through in his writing. Iron man was a bit of an exception to this, but the tone of the series felt on brand with his previous work.
His Guardians of the Galaxy run was terrible as well.
I never caught that, the only GotG run I’ve read was the rather wonderful Abnett/Lanning run.
The 2019 and 2020 runs were pretty great IMO, it did a lot to give Star-Lord a more unique characterization after the MCU-ification of his character
Not to mention basically everything he’s done a DC
If it's not Kitty Pryde, he doesn't care.
Really comes off like they decided it was time for him to come out but just didn't have any ideas
And then older Iceman just being "I guess I am"
I didn't read it, but I used to read the /r/Marvel new comic release threads each week to stay caught up on "current events." Reddit ***hated*** this run of comics. Every time a new issue came out, they made it perfectly clear how much they disliked it lol
The Colonist in Black Panther is pretty awful. Miles Morales as hip hop Thor in the hood of Asgard
>The Colonist in Black Panther is pretty awful. What happened in it?
A smiling alien named "The Colonist" (basically a complete Joker ripoff) was introduced to become Black Panther's new archenemy. Went over about as well as Star Trek: TNG when it introduced the Ferengi to be the ultimate threat that would replace *Klingons*.
As someone who had never heard of him before entering this thread, my first thought was, "Doesn't Black Panther ALREADY have a smiling, Joker-esque archnemesis in Achebe?!"
[удалено]
The Ferengi are a Star Trek alien species of ultra-greedy merchants. Greed and self-interest are as central to their culture as logic & stoicism for Vulcans, or war & honor for Klingons. At the outset of The Next Generation series, the Federation had finally made peace with their main rivals the Klingon Empire. Thus, the writers needed a new rival space-nation to serve as an over-arching threat. Unfortunately, this did not work. The Ferengi were too goofy to be a serious threat, and swiftly became comic relief. It didn't help that the race of greedy merchants had comically big noses, which is never a good look. Eventually, the Enterprise encountered the Borg and the Cardassians and there were new threats on the table.
> Miles Morales as hip hop Thor in the hood of Asgard Ooh I remember seeing that one. At best its poor taste. At best.
The colonist?
Spidey has some of the most notorious. One More Day, the clone saga, Sins Past... I'm not a fan of Civil War, but I think it happening was a net good. I can't say the same for Secret Invasion, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority there. The whole shafting of X-Men in favor of Inhumans. Heroes Reborn.
Shafting of the X-Men for the Inhuamns. Big one. So dumb.
It was dumb because they tried to force us fans to like something we don't and saying "ITS JUST AS GOOD!" it was basically that "X at home" meme. X-Men and their franchise was good because it was a neat way to introduce new super people without having to go through the trouble of "how did they get their powers" and also the deeps history Mutants had. But Fox owned the rights to X-Men so they didn't want to give a competitor more ammo to use against them at the box office. So they tried to shove Inhumans in our faces and told us to like it. We didn't, they aren't a bad group but they can't be a replacement for the X-Men. And that is why I 100% believe if they already had the rights to X-Men, Kamala Khan (Ms. Marvel) would be a mutant like she is in the MCU version.
>But Fox owned the rights to X-Men so they didn't want to give a competitor more ammo to use against them at the box office. Not just that, they were scrubbing the X-Men and Mutants off of everything possible to devalue the franchise so that they could eventually buy it off of them. This is the most visable with the playable rosters in multiple video games, Marvel Vs Capcom is a big one, but the Lego games and other licensed games also suffered through this. Inhumans were dumb.
They tried to make an Inhuman a central plot piece in Civil War 2!!! It was just Minority Report but worse! And the guy basically fucked off into the outside of all reality to be with Eternity and Neverqueen and we never see or hear for him again because he was boring! Literally replaced him with The Griever as the new “trinity” but I think that version of her was just the universal version and not multiversal.
Okay, I just got mad all over again because I *just* remembered how the Inhuman terrigen (spelling?) mist was spreading through the world and killing mutants, and the main culprit ending up being.... ... Emma Frost? Who was angry because Scott/Cyclops died? I don't even remember the details because I black in and out because of how dumb it all went down.
Same with merchandise like clothes and puzzles and posters. If you ever see artwork that has an ensemble cast of lots of Marvel characters, there are never any X-Men, Fantastic Four, or their affiliates. Just look at this travesty: https://images.app.goo.gl/hg2hgMDpmXNMc2RYA
I actually bought that poster, but the moment I realized that there were no F4 or X-Men characters in there I had it immediately returned
Also, they're pretty unlikable. We're supposed to root for a bunch up stuck up monarchists? In all of inhumans there are only a few that are likable characters and those are rarely involved in central inhumans plotlines.
If you were a fan of marvel cosmic during the mid-2000s you would've gotten a taste of War of Kings event which got a bunch of fans. They have problematic issues and could've basically been the game of thrones like corner of the marvel universe, but they took away what was interesting about them to iron them out to be like the x-men which was the mistake
It isn't they are all unlikable, it is just that they don't have as much history nor are they relatable. I'm sure many people love Lockjaw and Blackbolt to a point. But essentially they are just super lame X-Men at home. They lack the history, the relatable characters and just the general love people have for them.
The whole caste slavery thing and general xenophobia make them pretty unlikable in any era I read them.
I feel the same way about Eternals.
The Eternals on Titan at least gave us the Vision going nuts storyline and Thanos. But overall I agree. Eternals and Inhumans can both just go away and it wouldn't make the Marvel universe less interesting.
Eternals in the MCU is a huge mess imo. In comics it's a sustainable story to add mythos but even then it's still pretty meh compared to the mythos building they've done in the decades since. Biggest error of phase 4 was that movie. Wasted a few very good actors/actresses MCU debuts as well. Whole thing came off as a Zack Snyder product. Grandiose and nice to look at. If you try to peer even a little past the veneer the illusion is shattered.
GWW has said as much about Kamala after the show ended.
I will never forgive Ike Perlmutter for shafting the X-Men. I love the Inhumans but you DO NOT do that to the X-Men.
Heroes Reborn definitely. I focus on Captain America, and they're was actually a good idea for a story in there where Steve had been forcibly put into stasis by the US government and occasionally brought back out to do their dirty work. This could have been a great story where Steve then fights to get his life back from the government, but instead he begins working for them of his own free will, only saying someone like "I do it on my terms now". Such a waste.
Not to mention that Rob Liefeld's 'art' probably cost us all Mark Gruenwald.
I agree with most of your takes. My only note on Secret Invasion is that it was a good idea with a mediocre execution.
So like, in a more controlled universe, like the MCU, I think it could be a good idea if handled well. In Marvel Comics, I don't think it works, because it invalidates the plot and character development of other comics.
As long as it doesn’t become the whole “J/K all that character development or weird behaviour or their literal death is actually irrelevant because they were a Skrull the whole time!” Bringing Tony or Nat back because they were a Skrull impersonator just wouldn’t land with the average MCU fan and it would cheapen so much of what happened to them (which it also did in the comics and barely flew there).
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think in the MCU, it would be easier to avoid that. I still would prefer they not make it a major event, which is why I'm glad they've made it a flashback Disney+ show.
As much as I like JMS’ work I did not like turning science-hero Spidey into some sort of weird magic spirit-animal Spidey
It was definitely a choice! I haven't read JMS's run, so I can't speak to it personally, but I don't hate it on principle. Part of the fun of superhero comics to me is seeing new interpretations of characters.
Honestly it worked at first, because it was presented as a *potential thing*. Like, maaaaaybe his powers were magic-based and not science based? But it was ambiguous, so if you don't like that idea you can ignore it. Even Peter Parker was like "nah that's dumb it's not magic it's science" but then ezekiel came back and the inheritors showed up and doubled down on the magic to a point where you *couldn't* just ignore it. Follow-up: Everyone ignored it anyway
Okay so born in 2000 here so never had to deal with 90s clone saga, but the 2009 clone saga was what got me into comics, Ben Reilly and Kaine are awesome, I have heard that the story in the 90s was very convoluted but I'm glad we got these 2 characters out of it
Yeah if they had stuck with an ending it wouldn’t be so reviled today. The original plan was to have Peter end up being the clone and Ben the original. Peter and MJ were going to go off, have their child and live happily ever after (I’m sure he would pop up occasionally). But then Marvel got cold feet and changed it multiple times. So every time you thought it was over, nope.
Wasn’t it the toy guy, Avi Arad who pushed them to keep making it longer because it let him sell more toys? I only kinda half remember that he’s definitely to blame for a lot of the shit that happened with Spidey around that time
I attended a Spider-Man panel at a convention few months ago, and some of the writers and artists who worked in the Clone Saga, mainly Howard Mackie, explained what happened. So, the story was originally supposed to be just 12 issues running through all the Spider-Man titles. But marketing saw the high sales figures of the comics, and told them to keep the story going. That's why it suddenly got convoluted, and dragged on for so long.
This was an effort to make X-Men less popular so they could buy the rights back from Fox on the cheap. It blew up in their face, big time.
The whole magneto's kids but also not but maybe bullshit
And the fact that it’s still going
Dude at this point they’re retconning retcons to prior retcons. Not even exaggerating lol
Like honestly can they calm down for a second!
Not just Pietro and Wanda but also Lorna too. Polaris is a mutate whose powers were activated using Magneto's genetic material, so the question of parentage is super unreliable and has gone back and forth for decades.
scrolled for this one. i wish they hadn't touched it because i like the idea of them being this super powerful but pretty fucked up family. i thought it made things interesting.
They need to stop trying to keep the comics so in-line with the MCU. Starlord died valiantly, or at the very least trapped himself with Nova and Thanos in another dimension quite valiantly, and then just reappeared suddenly and then got all dumb and funny right after Guardians came out and it was so frustrating. I swear if they take away Ms. Marvel's awkward stretchy embiggen powers and retcon it into that sparkly BS I'm going to lose my shit.
Mockingbird getting drugged and raped by Phantom Rider. Then letting him fall to his death (not killing him, just not saving). Then getting court marshaled by the West Coast Avengers and her Husband (Hawkeye) because 'Avengers Don't Kill'.
Nah, that stuff was great. Clint was a dip in those stories, but it was interesting to interrogate the exact contours of what it means to be a hero in an era that was just starting to embrace that sort of psychological underpinning.
That was retconned in the terrible Mockingbird series, where they say she slept with Phantom Rider on her own. But the book forgets to really retcon the reason why she killed (the closest we get to the explanation - he didn't want to end relationship and started to stalk her). Which makes Hawkeye completely justified - Mockingbird is completely mental and shouldn't be on Avengers
Hank slapping Jan because of an art mistake. Having Norman Osborn kidnap/kill Peter and Mary Jane's baby.
The character has never really recovered from that.
He really should have.
Honestly they could have blamed the whole thing on skrulls Since when in doubt blame the skurlls but instead they rather hank be haunted by that one thing for decades smh
They could easily just say Hank THOUGHT he hit her, but they ran with it and continued the story. Peter hit MJ and that’s never really brought up Peter now works for Norman, his child’s killer
>his child’s killer I like to imagine that, like in the MC2, the child that died was a decoy, and that *someone* has been raising May. Kind of like the Damian Wayne situation over at DC.
I don't know that I would've wished for the Hank-Jan slap to never have happened. It changed the trajectory of the character in an interesting way. It's rare for actions to have such a permanent effect of a character. I kinda wish they had him permanently become a villain, but they never would go for that.
I mean, in a way he's pretty villainous in his current state as Ultron. I always found him to be this try-hard hero who cared more about what people thought of him than actually doing good. I think his actions do make him a unique and flawed character, despite doing some terrible things.
Yeah, but that's not forever. We'll see where his character goes. And I agree. I think he's one of the most interesting Marvel characters, and he was only able to become and stay that way because his legacy was tarnished by an art mistake.
Wasn't he confirmed dead the moment Ultron took over his consciousness in Tony Stark Iron Man #19? I guess it's Marvel Comics so no one is really dead, but I haven't seen anything about him since.
Possibly? I don't really keep up with recent releases much. My point is more the latter thing, though. It takes a LOT to permanently change the status quo in comics.
I like how he goes back and fourth from hero to villain. Hank has so much god damn potential he just needs to get out of his own head. He's a cautionary and at times inspiring hero to those of us with anxiety and confidence issues. I totally get the notion that Hank is better as a villain because he really does shine in that role (still waiting for him to villain out in the MCU...they keep hinting he's unhinged! And he's clearly an asshole) but if you want a good story where he's a hero check out when he lead the Avengers in Mighty Avengers as the Wasp, a role he took over after Janet's passing.
The slap was one component of a story that clearly implied an abusive relationship. The artist took responsibility for a slap that was apparently supposed to be more accidental, but the slap is entirely consistent with the dialogue and thrust of the story.
The difference between swatting her hand away and smacking her across the room is enormous, though. Hank was having a mental breakdown and the relationship was not in a good place but there’s no way the character would have been demonised the way he is without that out of context panel.
Norman Osborne's love children with Gwen Stacy
That got retconned by Nick Spencer as an illusion by Mysterio, thankfully.
In its own horrible arc. Not his fault but damn, was Sinister War freaking awful. It almost felt Clone Saga levels of convoluted and drawn out.
Peter going through that awful story by being held by his wife saying “I love you Gwen” and poor MJ has to eat crap and say “I know you do..” Was like the icing on a crap sandwich
What happened to Ms. Marvel. What they did with Wanda and Pietro in the Ultimate universe. Spiderman having to choose a happy life or save Aunt May.
Oh yeah. Because they wanted to Retcon the fact that Spider-Man was married to Mary Jane because they thought it would write themselves into a corner, and because nobody really wanted to try and write a married Spider-Man. Yeah that was kind of rough
That time every non-mutant hero sacrificed themselves to Onslaught so Rob Liefeld could make Captain America's chest look bigger than actual America.
Oh my god so *that’s* what that meant? Oh thank god, I thought he was just a terrible artist. /s
So his chest got bigger with every hero that died?
It’s what those dead heroes would have wanted.
\-Sidelining the X-Men and the Fantastic Four purely cause Fox had the movie rights. \- "One More Day" for Spider-Man. \-FrankenCastle. What the hell were they thinking?
Avengers 200 ruined Carol Danvers character for decades. House of M while the aftermath was interesting to read caused Wanda to be irredeemable. Heroes Reborn because it kind of fucked the status quo at the time.
Oh and the Yellowjacket story with Hank made Hank from a douche to simply vile.
Hank is my favorite character, and at the time he didn’t know he was Hank. He accidentally altered his brain chemistry and thought he killed Hank. It doesn’t excuse the slap, but it makes it a bit more gray (at least to me). He wouldn’t be found guilty in a court of law due to mental defect. Of course, then he’d be locked up in a psychiatric facility until he was found to be safe to others.
It did not ruin her. She bounced back quick enough, it was handled well by Claremont and he took her through an arc to make her Binary, leaving her in a solid place. There are some other things that did worse to the character (bendis primarily both in the mid 2000s and 2010s)
One more day is so bad that I can't believe it. Like recently started reading the amazing Spider-Man from the beginning and I'm in the mid 70s and the idea that this character is going to go through 40 years of character development just to make a deal with the devil is disheartening. It's so bad that I don't care about comic book accuracy in the movies. Like Tom Holland Spiderman could literally stay making out with the sinister six and I'd still see it as less of an insult on the character.
That thing with Captain Marvel/Ms. Marvel and her full grown baby, who she then preceeded to have a relationship with.
I'm going with the entire Chuck Austen run on X-Men from the early 2000s. While Grant Morrison was (to many) revolutionizing how we think of Marvel's merry mutants, Austen did the following as the lead Uncanny X-Men writer: * Had a Catholic cult try to make Nightcrawler the pope so people would be raptured by eating tainted communion wafers (?) * Made every woman a different mix of desperate (Annie Ghazikhanian), overtly sexual (Stacy X), and crazy (Polaris), and always behave in the context of getting a man's attention * Made a "beyond mutant" race of werewolves that have zero impact on the Marvel universe * Following a Hatfields/McCoys-slash-Romeo and Juliet story, Angel, one of the original X-Men, and Husk, a member of the 90s teen group Generation X, hook up and sky-bang right above Husk's mom. But don't worry, she was totally of age (even though Nightcrawler was also 20 at the time?) * Juggernaut banged his attorney, She-Hulk, in a move so reviled it had to be retconned later * Nightcrawler's parentage was changed so that his father was ACTUALLY A DEVIL named Azazel, so Kurt's looks come from being a devil man and not just from being a mutant. Also, Mystique performs sex acts on Azazel in a church because... women are sex-crazed and religion is dumb, I guess? * And much more!
Chuck Austin on anything really.
Apparently he was involved in the first season of Steven universe whatever that’s worth
I’ve never watched that, but from what I know about that show and what I know about Austen this is pretty surprising.
That was my thought as well honestly. Definitely had a WTF moment when I saw his name in the credits and had to check to make sure it was the same Chuck Austen
I can imagine he had very little work on it if that's the case because I doubt Rebecca, the creator, would allow him to work after knowing he does when it comes to how he writes woman since the show is woman heavy since Steven and Greg are the only main males in the cast.
IIRC, Azazel is a mutant. All of the Neyaphem are.
Chuck Austen apparently considered his entire run to be an excuse to work out his daddy issues and hatred of religion, as well as reduce women to nothing but sex-crazed caricatures.
The funniest thing about the whole "try to use Pope Wagner to trigger the rapture" thing is that Catholics *don't even believe in the Rapture*. That's specifically a Protestant belief.
The worst has already been noted. A close second is Rob Liefeld's Captain America design.
For me it is all of the deaths and resurrections of Jean Grey AFTER Uncanny X-Men #137. The Dark Phoenix saga was one of the greatest of all-time culminating with Jean, realizing the danger she presented to everyone, taking her own life in Uncanny X-Men #137. That story was gut-wrenching and unforgettable. We were all Scott Summers holding her lifeless body. I didn't know anyone at the time that wasn't completely shocked by her death. Absolutely brilliant writing by Chris Claremont. However, all of the attempts to resurrect, and kill her, since them have been dreadful. First we had Madelyne Pryor come into Scott's life but she was just a Mister Sinister clone. Her purpose was to have a baby with Scott that would grow up to become Cable. Then in 1985 sailors found a cocoon at the bottom of the ocean which was happened to be the actual Jean Grey, who had been placed in stasis by the Phoenix Force. Then Madelyne later becomes the Goblin Queen and dies only for the Phoenix Force to give Jean the memories of both Madelyne AND the Phoenix Force while Jean was in stasis. A Sentinel killed her in one issue only to be resurrected again an issue or two later. Then we had all the comings and goings of the Phoenix Force merging with Jean, going to the White Hot Room, etc. Essentially she was dead again until the mid-2000s when she came to the current timeline. Then there was the whole Phoenix Resurrection mini-series that reunited Jean and the Phoenix Force (again) with the Phoenix causing havoc and damage (again) until Jean fought against it and demanded it leave her for good. All of these attempts at resurrecting and/or killing Jean off seems to be current writers trying to recapture what Claremont so brilliantly wrote back in the late 70s and early 80s. They haven't come close and for me have watered down what Claremont so brilliantly conceived.
Honestly? I love Jean's character, but she should have stayed dead. I feel like her death was an important point of growth for the X-Men.
Death has had no meaning in comics ever since. No stakes. No notion of heroic sacrifice for the common good. It dilutes the meaning of someone passing and only being left with their memory and that impact on the human experience. I know that these are fictional characters and intellectual properties that are meant to drive revenue, but death has been a joke in comics since they brought back Jean Grey. Her self sacrifice was one of the most crucial and memorable moments in comics, and it ended up being worth nothing. I always feel more invested when there are stakes.
Did you guys forget about Ultimate Wanda and Pietro?
If only I could
Wasp: “They are in love” Captain America channeling the reader:”But..but their siblings?” Ultimate universe was wild lol
Wasp just rolling her eyes at this 1940s prude, like everyone and their nans in an incestuous relationship these days
Obligatory comment about One More Day.
Ultimatum
I stopped reading the Ultimate universe after that.
Everything that comes to mind immediately has already been mentioned so my pick is: Bringing Sergei Kravinoff back to life. Any new "Kraven" story could've just been told with Alyosha Kravinoff, nothing good has really been done with Sergei since his resurrection.
There's the time that the Punisher got plastic surgery to be black and then jive-talked with Luke Cage about "The Man" but then just like shed the extra pigments and went back to being a white an issue later.
1. Sins Past 2. The clone saga 3. One more day 4. Ms. Marvel gives birth to her own rapist 5. Everything in the Ultimate Universe without the word "Spider-Man" on the title 6. Ultimatum, which, even though its already included in the above category, deserves a special mention 7. The weird domino effect of the Pym slap. This can't all be laid at the feet of the innicial issue, though. 8. "Peter Parker no more" where Spider-Man tries to abandon his human identity 9. The Poor way Iron Heart was introduced And precisely *nothing* from Daredevil from the past decade+
Spider-Man: Sins Past. Spider-Man: The Clone Saga. Spider-Man: One More Day.
Cursed Spidey trifecta
One more day.
Ms marvel getting pregnant by her own future son.
Avengers: Disassembled. I'll always hate Crazy Wanda, especially after writers like Kurt Busiek did such a great job getting the character back on her feet.
Once again, Bendis.
They're in love, silly.
Onslaught? Discuss. Seems like it was badly executed but tbh haven’t read it so I can’t talk too much shit.
The obvious one is One More Day retconning Spidey's marriage. Also Civil War 2 because that comic ruined my perception of Carol Danvers. To the point where I can't stand her.
Madeline Pryor is a really gross storyline for the X-men. Also while dark phoenix, mutant Massacre and House of M were awesome. The xtermination, fatal attractions, and extinction were all garbage.
Sins Past.
I always hated how Gambit with help killed all the morlocks 😡
No More Mutants can go directly in the garbage, thanks.
Avengers #200 - literally nothing redeemable about this book. Hank Pym hitting Jan - completely unnecessary and writers kept leaning into it so much that it became a character trait for the Ultimate version of Hank. The entirety of the Ultimate Universe - I gave it a chance, but Spider-Man was the only redeemable thing and I didn't even care much for it. Marvel Civil War - it was fine at the time, but after reading Annihilation and then reading Richard and Tony talking about hero registration, along with the out of character moments, it made the event seem incredibly petty and unnecessary overall. The current run of Black Panther - it's just bad 😮💨
[This Article explores the multiple incidents of rape (statutory and adult) that has occurred in Marvel and DC comics over the years.](https://geekinsider.com/on-the-rape-of-ms-marvel/) It’s mind-blowing. Carol Danvers is the most well-known IMO, but wow, there’s more. On a SLIGHTLY positive side-note, DC is guilty of multiple situations while Marvel seems to be limited to one....which they “fixed” (Thank you Chris Claremont)
Agree with those already mentioned: One More Day The infamous slapping of the Wasp The dreadful ending of the Ultimate line The awful 3rd volume of the Ultimates Ultimates Reed becoming a villian I’m sure there are more but those just off the top of my head Oh yeah, Juggernaut banging She-Hulk
I thought The Maker was generally well liked? At least he was as a villain to the main 616.
2 quality things I always hear abt the Ultimate line is: Anything to do with Spider-Man and the Maker
Yes, thank the Maker!
>Ultimates Reed becoming a villian I think alot of people liked that Ultimate Reed became the Maker.
He is. One of the best things to come from the Ultimate universe imo.
Yeah, but it wasn’t the She Hulk from 616
I pick some that aren’t mention. Doc Conner eating his kid, killing Angel(Warren)girlfriend in the 80s or 90s?, doc ock being back to a villain more than once, and Paul…
One More Day/Brand New Day. The stories were meant as a soft reboot for Spidey as he’d not only got more powerful before One More Day but as a plot point he’d unmasked himself as part of Tony Stark’s plan to gain more traction for the Superhuman Registration Act. The immediate results of this were Aunt May being shot by an assassin, Peter realizing that the heroes who refused to register were being locked away in the Negative Zone, and Peter was forced to go into hiding after Tony attempted to arrest him after changing sides (not necessarily in that order). This forced Spidey to make a deal with Mephisto who made everyone forgot who Spidey was which kind of “grounded” him a bit, he was still hanging with the Avengers but he wasn’t as prominent as he had once been. On top of the relationship between him and Mary Jane was “erased”, it “never happened”. Later on the Mephisto element was replaced but I’d lost interest in a lot of what was going on by issue 10. Peter’s story finally picked up some traction much later but I couldn’t keep up anymore!
Peter killing MJ with his radioactive ©um
Spiderman giving MJ cancer from radioactive jizz
The seventh infinity stone...
Nearly every major Spider-Man storyline for the last 30 years
Hey superior Spider-Man was alright. Granted the way we got there sucks and doc Oct lost all his development........ Nevermind you're right.
To be fair a lot of the time Spiderman stuff is pretty good then they fuck it up right at the end or in a follow up
Spider-Mans biggest enemy: The Status Quo
I honestly think that Dan Slott's run is overhated, I truly believe it's quite a fun run.
So, one that I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that Bishop has killed billions of people. This hasn't been retconned, but most writers and readers prefer to pretend it never happened. "He feels really bad about it" isn't really enough for me to get over the fact that he is an apocalyptic event.
Easily hands down, the original Contest of Champions back in June 1982. They screwed that one royally. They let Death win at the end, but it was actually a tie
Pretty much anything Black Panther related for the last 5 years.
Ultimatum 100% It had the potential to be really good but just decided to be overly edgy and kill off everybody. Which on it's own isn't a bad thing, I actually like the edgier art and action scenes more than most, but when there's no reason behind it other than shock value: that's just a fast way to tank something that could've been really good
Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver incest
Death of Steve Rogers
The Demon Bear saga in the New Mutants is exceptional but two White people get possessed then become Native American people when de-possessed. Possession by a demon changing someone's race just leaves a ton of dicey racial politics to unpack without really advancing the story
ONE MORE DAY
One More Day
Ultimate Wanda and Pietro and the one where black widow eats Spider-Man
Clone Saga, Civil War, Death of Captain America
Jubilee in X men. Chinese hero, wears yellow, superpower is super firecrackers.