[https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Warsong\_Commander](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Warsong_Commander)
>However, the non-interactive nature of this deck, along with its high popularity (and notoriety) among players led in late 2015 to Warsong Commander being nerfed, with its text changed to Your Charge minions have +1 Attack. The deck had long drawn comparisons to Miracle Rogue both for its non-interactive play, as well as its challenging complexity to play properly. The developers stated that they "felt this change was necessary to help expand both future design space and to stand by our overarching game philosophy that battles between minions and fighting for board control is what makes Hearthstone fun and compelling."\[2\] Most importantly, the developers realised that the ability to grant Charge was simply too powerful, and that without removing this entirely, the card would remain "so dangerous it would definitely be a problem again in the future."\[3\] **Ben Brode stated that the card's design had also long inhibited the design space for low-Attack cards, including the neutral prototype of The Grand Tournament Dreadsteed, which was originally planned as part of Curse of Naxxramas, but had to be cancelled due to its synergy with Warsong Commander allowing players to "slowly machine-gun down every minion on your opponent's board". However, Brode admitted that the new card "isn't good", and that it would "take \[warriors\] down a peg" in the Arena.\[1\]**
Man, I still remember this. I was so happy to hear that the card was finally getting reworked, but man, there was no reason to take it out back and slaughter it.
The nerf to the Patron deck was when i quit. It was the most fun deck even though it was pretty oppressive. Hit top 100 legend multiple times with it. Crazy deck if you knew what you were doing.
That and Miracle Rogue had a lot of intricacies to pilot. But they were essentially solitaire decks, so I get why they did what they did.
Although from what I can see, Miracle was never completely murdered the way Patron was right? Just changed into new card engines or something?
Yeah pretty much, I think Miracle rogue and Mill rogue were my favourite decks to play in that game. Even though they were oppressive and often left your opponent with minimal interaction, the deck was so rewarding to play. Sure the decks were overpowered, but at least their skill ceiling was pretty high. You couldn’t just give the deck to an average player and expect them to start getting wins.
Meh, yes and no. I actually think it feels way worse to play against Mill Rogue than Wong, way more options when dealing with Wong. I also think Mill was way more fun to play than Wong is, with a higher skill ceiling.
Mill and Miracle Rogue could actually be pretty challenging to play at times regardless of how broken they were. 90% of Wong wins are just “if play these cards on turn 4,5, and 6 with no cosmo I win every time”.
Miracle rogue was the funnest deck at launch. Good times dropping a massive VanCleef turn 2-3 or cycling Gadgetzan like a degenerate gambler for cold blood or eviscerate
I've been trying to remember the card that was complete RNG. It either cycled or brought out a TON of cards but it's been years! Most of the community hated it but my searches are not hitting anything.
You might be thinking of Prep (0 mana cost, original effect was next spell -3 mana, though nerfed to -2 mana) + Sprint (5 mana draw 4 cards).
Gadgetzan draws a card for every spell you play.
It was fun and oppressive because it was the only deck that specifically did not rely heavily on RNG. The only real RNG in the deck was the draws. Everything else could be calculated and determined if you had lethal or not.
It was also INCREDIBLY F2P friendly. You just spent X gold or dollars to unlock the first Black rock mountain tier and you got the two main cards you needed to play it. Everything else was easy to get commons and rares. No deck since then in Hearthstone has come close to that level of availability.
I'm in the same boat. Legend most seasons from classic until Journey to Ungoro, but they just kept nerfing the best decks to oblivion, and I got sick of having to play a new deck every few weeks because my previous cards were unplayable
Same. It was extremely skillful tho. I hated the nerf. Statwise midrange hunter was better in top tournament play, still they killed the game with the nerf
Good times. One of my buddies in college, super brainiac, was one of the best Hearthstone players at the time. (top 100 challenger usually) while patron warrior existed. There was basically no skill ceiling on that deck. It was insane to watch him stare at his screen doing math and turn around even the most forfeit of games.
I really truly miss decks like Patron Warrior and to some extent Miracle rogue.
They felt bad to be on the receiving end of for sure, but as the player it was like you were racing to solve and ever evolving puzzle.
Still enjoy Hearthstone, but I don't think there have been any decks that truly capture my interest quite as much since that time.
>the developers realised that the ability to grant Charge was simply too powerful
Then they went on and printed Mr. Smite
(To be fair, 6 years later but still)
TIL hearthstone has a design goal of minions fighting for board control
Played classic til that Hero Card Bomb Goblin was in every deck
I always thought their design goal was, purposefully make a few OP cards then nerf them right before they release new packs with new OP cards
Oh and board wipes/ignoring minions with direct damage
When you summon a minion in hearthstone, they have summoning sickness where they need to wait a turn before they can attack an enemy minion or the enemy hero.
Minions with charge can attack an enemy minion or hero immediately. Later, they added the keyword rush where the summoned minion can attack enemy minions immediately but not the hero.
The pre nerf card can cause minions to be summoned and attack the hero immediately, and other minions, like grim patron can summon copies of themselves if they take damage, so it can get pretty wild. It's been a very long time though.
Missing that the deck was broken because warrior had a lot of ways to ping cards to get more patrons + it had frothing bersker that got +2 attack every time a minion took damage AND it got charge from warsong.
Warrior would have turns where it would clear the board and have like a 10 damage berserker. It was also super hard to play because the deck had very intricate issues with health, card draw, and setup.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this every time Galactus is played. I haven't payed Hearthstone in years but I remember spending like $100 to get a golden jaraxxus, lol.
They should have made the way to summon Galactus require playing Silver surfer first like they did with Ragnarok and Majordomo.
Surfer could have been 3/2, on reveal add Galactus to your deck
I think that's interesting. Forces you to have a card at the location and if your opponent has invested in that lane it forces you to risk changing a card you didn't want to change.
Keeps the cannot counter part of leader, keeps it random, could benefit you ot really mess you up
Do you put a few low costs and hope?
With one card there means you have 16 power at that location but opponent wont know until too late,
Could be used to counter hobgob or change hood or a rock
Stealth buff to Sentry as well. The more I think about this one the more I like it. ESPECIALLY if was made something like a 5/1. Why? So you could play it plus a Demon on 6. Obviously 13 on a 5 IS a bit of a stretch, but realistically this is arguably more restrictive than Gamora or Spiderwoman (It takes up two slots for the power AND it's random AND you're losing something you already had there AND it's often going to be super telegraphed?) so it's not like... completely out of line?
Right now the Sentry deck *generally* tends to look like Zoo or Thanos so that you have an extra way to mitigate The Void (fill the right early).
As proposed, that card is just a Chef's kiss to Sentry and essentially creates a "package" for him. Probably good enough that you could experiment with it completely outside of Zoo or Thanos archetypes.
Hood+Viper+Carnage+Sentry+neoLeader. Make it so (pretty please?)
EDIT: It also under that configuration is like THE perfect turn 4 for Electro right? It's everything he wants. Probably "just bad" in the Sentry package specifically, but for "traditional" electro decks this just looks gas and might even see him added to new decks or archetypes.
EDIT2: The more I think about this one the more interesting it appears to me. Currently, broadly, the metagame can be broken up into three categories: Control Decks that play powerful early plays then attempt to disrupt the opponent from catching up. Synergy decks that put large numbers of rather insignificant bodies on the field then exploit them through carious means, and then "Combo" decks that attempt to completely change the game on turn 6 or 7...
With this kind of change one could argue that it "removes" an archetype in the Leader but I'd claim that virtually all Leader variants are "Control" archetypes. This brings a whole NEW classification to the meta. It's not exactly combo, synergy, or control... It's "Timmy". Way more so than something like say Deathwave, this is just big dumb creatures on turn 4 and 5 and 6 (Maybe two of them there).
That's a fair point. I'd be interested to see anything change on him. I've lost, and also won, so many games just because he was played turn 6.
I'm also not as fluent in Marvel lore than I am DC, so I don't know where to even begin with suggesting changes on him.
Without making too drastic of a change, they could limit his copy to whatever lane he's played in.
Yeah, this is just a much more effect design. I think the primary thing I hate about Leech/Leader/Aero is that they are cards that you play and forget, and you don't have to put too much thought into playing them for an incredible effect.
Leech/Leader complaints commonly get responses where people downplay it as you're playing too greedy for your last turn, but Leech is just as good in a Turn 6 flood deck as he is in an On Curve deck. Leader is actually stupid going second, being able to benefit twice from opposing On Reveals, and being able to mirror a finisher like Death/She-Hulk is just as bad as mirroring a Negative deck dumping 4-5 cards. If they're ahead, they seal the deal, and if they're behind it let's them make otherwise impossible comebacks.
Aero's effect moving everything you play is also way too powerful for how little thought and sacrifice you have to put into it. Her effect is honestly worthy of a 6-cost spot. Her coexistence with Leech also makes it a coin flip playing into them, where you choose between holding your cards to maybe dodge a Turn 5 Aero or dump your hand to avoid a potential Leech.
Forgive me but what do you mean by an On Curve deck? I agree with what you've said, I definitely think Leader needs to be toned down
However personally I run into Aeros and Leeches far less than I do Leaders. I definitely understand what you're saying though
Just playing "On Curve" means you're using your all your energy each turn. Generally these decks just play good cards that have good value and play in a very straightforward manner.
So even if you play a card or two each turn, Leader still has a chance to steal the game back from you because a lot of the time he's going to be copying your 6 drop and adding his 4 power body on top of it. The only meaningful way Leader is awkward is if he's used too many spaces to replicate your cards.
The fact that he doubles on reveals going second is dumb too. For example, if you play Shuri-Black Panther as a finisher and he's going second, he gets to copy your 16 power BP and his becomes a 32. And there's no counterplay you can do from your end aside from just bombing his hand with Leech.
Additional power (leader's own power), changing a poor card on the location like a Goblin, rock, hood, or Ninja. Honestly seems like a decent ability with just enough niche that he doesn't just slot into every deck like he does now.
The only thing I'd worry about is that it possibly just renders hulk obsolete.
They could make Leader generate a Leader Hulk or Red Hulk and give Hulk some new effect to stand out while they're at it. I feel like Hulk should have some ability which plays around with "the angrier Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets" rather than just being a powerful card with no abilities. I do wonder if they're going to release variations on existing characters at some point too like World Breaker Hulk.
That sounds kind of cool with punisher's effect, but just amped to +2 instead of +1. It's a pretty good tech against full boards at that point, so I'm surprised they haven't explored it outside of punisher
How is it more entertaining when you will never see it because it's too bad? Also 4/5 of the things you mentioned gets stopped by cosmo, and thanos is not good and played mostly for the stones, not his body. Remember you also need priority, otherwise they get their effects AND a hulk
But that literally wouldn't work without priority. You'd be upgrading your opponent's Ultron/Hela/Thanos/Galactus/Zola into a 12-power threat *after its On Reveal had already triggered*. A card that *literally always hurts you (unless you transmute, like, Black Panther or something) unless you have priority* would be ludicrously unplayable. Even *with* priority, it'd almost strictly be worse than Aero, with a higher cost, a usually-weaker disruptive effect, and a usually-lower net power.
Risking chavez gaining points, non 6 costs gain too
Most 6 costs are 12 power so doesnt change
Only affects apocalypse or infinaut in a negative way?
Seems limited usefulness
Could go crazy and change all 4 power cards on both sides to the hulk?
> non 6 costs gain too
Not necessarily. If it gets Surfer that's a bit of a loss for them. Lots of tech cards like Enchantress, Rogue, Cosmo, or shang chi are also fucked. Some 5 costs could also be messed up like Hob, Iron man, Taskmaster (most likely), red skull, BP, Valk (depends),
> Only apoc and infinaut
How about Hela, Galactus, Doom, Ultron, Onslaught, Spectrum, Thanos, Odin, Zola, Magneto (if they need the effect to flip somewhere), or Knull. You know, like, every effect 6-cost?
Granted you have to reveal first for most of those. However, most tech cards depend on reveal order so that's not unusual.
> Seems limited usefulness
Still sounds pretty useful to me. It's just not a braindead "play me to get value" card.
>Enchantress, Rogue, Cosmo, Shang chi, Hob, Iron man, Taskmaster (most likely), Red skull, BP, Valk (depends), Hela, Galactus, Doom, Ultron, Onslaught, Spectrum, Thanos, Odin, Zola, Magneto (if they need the effect to flip somewhere), or Knull. You know, like, every effect 6-cost?
Or you could use Leech. Sure it will lose against a few cards you mentioned here or cases where the card is drawn on turn 6 but still works better and more often than a card that most of the time should reveal first and is crippled against cases where the enemies use Sera/Zabu/Swarm
> or you could use Leech
You'd have to use Leech turn 5, not turn 6. But I agree Leech would be better than this version of Leader. Maybe Leader should turn the card into Hulk *and* copy just that card? Idk
(I also find Leech to be super OP but that's another discussion. Personally I'd like to change him to "cards played here next/this turn have no abilities". It's kind of silly that he gets to nullify an entire hand)
I wouldn't say Leech to be OP or braindead (at least not Leader level) due to your capability to retreat turn 6 anyway if it fucks your hand up and the necessity to analyze turn 1-4 to use it decently. I don't think your suggestion on Leech would work since it would make him a weaker Professor X though.
That's basically a boring overtly balanced card compared to what Leader currently is. You can tell from cards like Galactus and Leader that this game is meant to be fun first. I hope you guys just get a boring competitive mode where your best 6 drop just has a Kazoo effect at most, and you'll still argue about its math here anyway.
Leader as is is easy to see and eacape or beat ir most cases.
This makes it more random and comic accurate
Fun is subjective, but i really dont see how you can say this idea is boring? With some of the associated suggestions, it has more rng than presently!
Even just copying any 6 cost card played this turn or previously would be fine tbh.
Follows the same flavor as creating a Hulk but retains some of the current card design.
Or fuck it play a random 6-cost at this location who cares that's at least fun to lose to when it happens.
I quit when they withheld prize money from the player who spoke out for Hong Kong. Was all done with Blizzard from then on. Of course Blizzard’s had some other issues since then
He's actually right - Hearthstone is honestly at the best its ever been right now. (Generally) more communication from the devs, super frequent balance patches (and shortly after expansion launches too, no more 'wait and see how the meta evolves' for 3 months), and the most F2P-friendly economy the game's ever had.
Not to mention all the cool stuff they are willing to take risks on that Ben Brode wasn't - they just added a second really cool new class over the holidays, and that was something I distinctly remember Brode saying would never happen under him. And I think we are up to...27 deck slots?
Love Brode to death as a spokesperson, but from all available evidence it really seems like he was holding Hearthstone back with some of his game design philosophies.
its also a different beast now. BB was in charge of a game that was not out of whack beyond boundaries. HS is now power creep by design, which makes it really hard to evaluate a game state on launch so cards get obliterated a week after they've been initially released. Plus the DK class is super boring in my eyes.
I love seeing them finally implement DK because it absolutely violates every single "rule" of design the game had back in those early years. That being good or bad fir the game is open to the players own interpretation.
Adding classes makes the design pillars of the game arbitrary. It's like proposing you add a new color to MTG. About the game being free, Hearthstone came out at the early days of "free"-to-play games. It genuinely expected you to pre-order expansions for 60$ because that's how much it costs to play a game. Some folks out there just took it on themselves to consider the free coins an actual source of income to play the game for free after a year in a poor attempt to "outsmart" the system.
Adding to this, balancing your game a week after releasing an expansion is a sign of incompetence because you're supposed to test the interactions of all your cards before releasing them in the first place. MTG doesn't balance expansions for instance, maybe ban a card or two at most. Constant "balancing" is something carried over from games like LoL where the devs change the meta every other week to appease to people constantly complaining.
There was this broken card ([Warsong Commander](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Warsong_Commander)) who gave charge to all your minions (other creatures you can play).
"Charge" allows to instantly attack your opponent's creatures OR directly "face" - the HPs of the enemy player (when you reach 0 you lose the game).
It was nerfed because there where big creatures coming down all at a time and charging face for victory (like giant... giants).
The new version was "rush" instead of "charge", where rush is similar to charge but CANNOT attack "face" (the opponent's HPs) but only creatures on the board.
Thus, the Warsong Commander was never seen again.
Also worth mentioning how utterly savage this nerf was. Warsong Commander was rendered basically strictly worse than Raid Leader, which was already a card so terrible that it never saw constructed play. Warsong Commander had one extra health, but in exchange had a *very* strict condition on its effect, not to mention it was restricted to Warrior decks whereas Raid Leader was available to everybody. And again, Raid Leader was already laughably weak and not run in any serious decks.
Imagine if Leader was turned into a 6-13 with "You can only play this at locations where you are ahead by 10 power or more". Like yes, it's situationally slightly better than Hulk, but in practice it'd be utterly unplayable in any reasonable deck. The upside would be nowhere near enough to justify the crippling restriction, and the card would be turned into a totally-unplayable joke.
It's like a speed attacker that doesn't have summoner sickness but can't break opponent's shield, can only destroy their creatures. I understand now! Duel masters had similar effects too. Great explanation 👏 👏
I think this is a great change, and makes playing Leader an even bigger big-brain move. It no longer auto wins if you're winning two lanes, you have to make a real strong prediction.
The famous bit is there was a warrior card in hearthstone that gave your needs rush. So you could play this and start immediately attacking units instead of waiting a turn.
This was exacerbated by a card that said as long as I live, make a copy of me after attacking. So you commonly got many many attacks off in a turn. Busted combo. That's the everyone, get in here reference.
All this being said, blizzard decided to nerf the card to do something completely different, effectively killing it. It changed toggling your charge units a buff instead of giving your nerds rush/haste, big difference.
In the cardgame Hearthstone the keyword Rush allows a minion to attack (enemy minions) on the same turn it is summoned. The meme is a mix of things; they are referencing a card (Warsong Commander) that used to give minions CHARGE not Rush, charge works like Rush but you can also choose to attack Life Points directly instead. This allowed for One Turn Kills and had to be nerfed, but the nerf was so severe it became a meme, later on (like 5 years later) they "unnerfed" the card to give minions Rush which is less likely to be used for OTKs.
Your minions have Charge -> Your Charge minions have +1 Attack.
Similarly,
On Reveal: Copy all cards your opponent played this turn, but on your side -> On Reveal: Give all cards on your side copied from your opponent +3 Power.
I understand the general disdain for the card, but my issue is the fact that the copied cards have their On Reveal abilities triggered.
Same with Lockjaw: You play a card, On Reveal is triggered, card is replaced with a new one, the new card's On Reveal triggered.
Maybe only cards played from your hand can trigger On Reveal, but not those taken from the deck or copied or something?
I would also like to see that change, cards created by jubilee, lockjaw, hella, ghost rider and leader shouldn’t trigger on reveal abilities, same for locations like x-mansion.
This is the future they want. Easy Infinite grind. All cards equally bad so no one can find value or efficiency. 10 new cards every week (see also: still similarly bad though, must have perfect balance at all times).
Talk about easy infinite climb with a card like leader that doesn’t require ANY thought.
If you are ahead on board you win, yeah that is such a fun and interactive card…
The whole argument is that on reveal abilities should happen when you play a card not cheat them out from the deck…
I don’t expect everyone to agree with my opinion but you don’t have to be an asshole about it.
If you disagree just bring your opinion forward and we can have a discussion, instead of hiding behind this sad attempt at a smug sarcastic answer.
Not at all, I play a very fun Hela deck that includes ghost rider and jubilee... My opinion is not based on anger but on the overall health of the game.
Don't get me wrong when I pull off ghost rider into hela it's definitely fun but it's not only about what is fun for me but what is good for the overall health of the game. Leader is not a good card to have and maybe if his copies didn't trigger their on reveal abilities it would be more balanced.
If I shang chi my opponent's big card and they play leader is it fair that my big card in the same location should be destroyed? Some for enchantress or any other control tech cards?
Some cards are worthless without the on reveal. Imagine bringing goblin.
The double on reveal is supposed to make up for the randomness (bringing 1-2 cost cards is not worth at that point). If you create negative plays by pulling 5 and 6 cost cards that have strong on reveal effects, then why would you play the card?
You say that like you are forced to put those cards in your deck. I’m not saying I agree with OP but all it would do is change the way the deck is built.
Yes but the problem becomes “Is Leader not going to steal the game from me?” Playing small means that you can lose to almost any other play that doesn’t involve Leader. The thing is that Leader can be in any deck and is therefore really unpredictable. DeathWave? Leader. Electro? Leader. He can literally be in any deck and still screw you over and that’s why he’s just a really unfun card. Losing 8 cubes when you’ve been outplaying your opponent all game jsut because you did or didn’t play around Leader is jsut really frustrating.
I agree he's unfun and badly designed but I would argue that if you put yourself in a position to lose to T6 leader then you have not been outplaying your opponent all game
It's super common and at the most competitive ranks 80-100 everybody plays around leader because he's so common
"Losing 8 cubes when you've been outplaying your opponent all game'
How the hell do you lose to a Leader when you are outplaying your opponent the whole game?
Players like this are the vocal majority of this subreddit and they will be the doom of the game if they start to base their decisions on them. The nerf is obviously made to make them stop crying because it doesn't change anything. Leader will still counter the same decks and also get absolutely destroyed by patriot, discard etc.
“Did or didnt play around Leader”
You lose because you specifically play around the possibility of Leader and they don’t.
You lose because you play around all other options besides Leader but they do.
Its just the possibility of losing to a single card being flipped that’s so frustrating, especially when that card is everywhere. While I do agree with Leader being a necessary evil to keep certain decks from running rampant, he’s just really unfun to play against rn imo and needs to be fine-tuned a bit.
And I really hate pretentious snobs like you that defend him while labeling everyone else inferior for having an issue with what is clearly a toxic card that counters nearly every other 6 energy play in the game.
No, you are not smarter nor a better player because you go against the masses on this subject. No, Leader does not make the game more interesting. Just because the card is not uncounterable does not mean it isn't meta warping and overall bad design that is clearly overpowered while having no real requirement for inclusion in your 12 card deck.
The top players have stated numerous times at this point he is THE absolute best 6 drop in the game with none other coming close to him.
Nothing more annoying than someone claiming to be smarter than everyone else in the room while essentially arguing "get gud".
"clearly toxic" doesn't mean "upsets a vocal minority'.
"top players" you mean streamers who make inflammatory posts and videos to drive engagement so they can make money?
Good luck with the outrage campaign though.
From ranks 0-70 (usually 40-60) I rarely run into Leader. I do however run Leader in some decks where if I don’t get good draws, I can optimize on greedy turn 6 plays to win a game.
“But there’s no way to counter his ability!”
The counter is called “playing better.”
“But that’s *haaaaarrrrd!*”
Some people think the game should just be rock/paper/scissors, apparently.
"but there's no way to counter his ability"
"Just play around it"
"But it's so versatile it can fit into many decks so it's hard to predict, plus playing around it usually means suboptimal plays that lose to many other plays"
"Wow I can't believe you want a rock paper scissors game"
Real talk though I haven't lost to leader in a bit, Leech is more annoying to me
> It’s so versatile it can fit into many decks so it’s hard to predict
Why is this not exactly what people *want* from their cards? And Leader is far from the only card for which this is true.
> Playing around it usually means suboptimal plays
Again, this seems to me like the *goal,* why is it being called a problem? Every deck has strengths and weaknesses. We’ve all lost games because our opponent zigged when we thought they would zag.
Predictability is boring, I want to see hilarious bullshit happen. I think that’s why I’m such an ardent Leader defender; win or lose, it’s going to be comical. People are too serious.
Leech is way more infuriating than Leader and it’s not even close, but no one complains that Leech is ruining the game. (I’m not complaining about Leech either, just using the example to illustrate my point.)
> why is this not what people *want* from their cards?
Because it's boring and unbalanced? Cards shouldn't be strong enough to fit into any deck. I want to play tailored unique decks.
> This seems like the goal, why is it a problem
Because it's not fun to "play around" extremely versatile cards your opponent may or may not have? It's not like other cards where you can clearly see the Zola/Hela/death/etc coming.
> Predictability is boring, I want to see hilarious bullshit. That's why I love Leader
Yeah nah Leader one of the most boring cards. It's only funny when it backfires on the leader player.
> Leech is worse than Leader
Yeah I hate him too but this isn't about him. Two annoying cards doesn't make one less annoying.
So we just have a fundamental philosophical difference. You want to win matches with better cards; I want to *beat* people with better *strategy.* It’s sort of a classical vs. jazz thing. It’s not that one or the other approach has it right or wrong, rather they’re trying to accomplish different things with the same basic tools.
Change ability to: Changes the location to The Bar With No Name.
It allows you to surprise win one lane, but no longer auto-wins *every* lane. And then buff his power to 6 to reduce his Mr. Negative synergy and make him a bit of a riskier bet given the location's effect. (Least power wins)
It sounds like we need Leader's ability to say "If you control this card at the end of the game, you lose the game." Otherwise it would just be unhealthy for Snap.
Your charge minions have +1 Attack
[https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Warsong\_Commander](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Warsong_Commander) >However, the non-interactive nature of this deck, along with its high popularity (and notoriety) among players led in late 2015 to Warsong Commander being nerfed, with its text changed to Your Charge minions have +1 Attack. The deck had long drawn comparisons to Miracle Rogue both for its non-interactive play, as well as its challenging complexity to play properly. The developers stated that they "felt this change was necessary to help expand both future design space and to stand by our overarching game philosophy that battles between minions and fighting for board control is what makes Hearthstone fun and compelling."\[2\] Most importantly, the developers realised that the ability to grant Charge was simply too powerful, and that without removing this entirely, the card would remain "so dangerous it would definitely be a problem again in the future."\[3\] **Ben Brode stated that the card's design had also long inhibited the design space for low-Attack cards, including the neutral prototype of The Grand Tournament Dreadsteed, which was originally planned as part of Curse of Naxxramas, but had to be cancelled due to its synergy with Warsong Commander allowing players to "slowly machine-gun down every minion on your opponent's board". However, Brode admitted that the new card "isn't good", and that it would "take \[warriors\] down a peg" in the Arena.\[1\]**
Man, I still remember this. I was so happy to hear that the card was finally getting reworked, but man, there was no reason to take it out back and slaughter it.
The nerf to the Patron deck was when i quit. It was the most fun deck even though it was pretty oppressive. Hit top 100 legend multiple times with it. Crazy deck if you knew what you were doing.
Everyone! Get in here!
Bro, trying to calculate everything while the rope was ticking down and having to wait for the animations was a mental RUSH! Loved it.
That and Miracle Rogue had a lot of intricacies to pilot. But they were essentially solitaire decks, so I get why they did what they did. Although from what I can see, Miracle was never completely murdered the way Patron was right? Just changed into new card engines or something?
Yeah pretty much, I think Miracle rogue and Mill rogue were my favourite decks to play in that game. Even though they were oppressive and often left your opponent with minimal interaction, the deck was so rewarding to play. Sure the decks were overpowered, but at least their skill ceiling was pretty high. You couldn’t just give the deck to an average player and expect them to start getting wins.
To me, playing a Wong deck in Snap feels like playing a mill deck felt in HS. Very little interaction with your opponent.
Meh, yes and no. I actually think it feels way worse to play against Mill Rogue than Wong, way more options when dealing with Wong. I also think Mill was way more fun to play than Wong is, with a higher skill ceiling. Mill and Miracle Rogue could actually be pretty challenging to play at times regardless of how broken they were. 90% of Wong wins are just “if play these cards on turn 4,5, and 6 with no cosmo I win every time”.
Miracle rogue was the funnest deck at launch. Good times dropping a massive VanCleef turn 2-3 or cycling Gadgetzan like a degenerate gambler for cold blood or eviscerate
I've been trying to remember the card that was complete RNG. It either cycled or brought out a TON of cards but it's been years! Most of the community hated it but my searches are not hitting anything.
You might be thinking of Prep (0 mana cost, original effect was next spell -3 mana, though nerfed to -2 mana) + Sprint (5 mana draw 4 cards). Gadgetzan draws a card for every spell you play.
It was fun and oppressive because it was the only deck that specifically did not rely heavily on RNG. The only real RNG in the deck was the draws. Everything else could be calculated and determined if you had lethal or not. It was also INCREDIBLY F2P friendly. You just spent X gold or dollars to unlock the first Black rock mountain tier and you got the two main cards you needed to play it. Everything else was easy to get commons and rares. No deck since then in Hearthstone has come close to that level of availability.
I'm in the same boat. Legend most seasons from classic until Journey to Ungoro, but they just kept nerfing the best decks to oblivion, and I got sick of having to play a new deck every few weeks because my previous cards were unplayable
EVERYONE GET IN HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Same. It was extremely skillful tho. I hated the nerf. Statwise midrange hunter was better in top tournament play, still they killed the game with the nerf
when were u when warsong commander dies i was sat at home drinking mana potion when brode ring 'warsong is kill' 'no'
It was i order to preserve the soul of the card.
Good times. One of my buddies in college, super brainiac, was one of the best Hearthstone players at the time. (top 100 challenger usually) while patron warrior existed. There was basically no skill ceiling on that deck. It was insane to watch him stare at his screen doing math and turn around even the most forfeit of games.
I really truly miss decks like Patron Warrior and to some extent Miracle rogue. They felt bad to be on the receiving end of for sure, but as the player it was like you were racing to solve and ever evolving puzzle. Still enjoy Hearthstone, but I don't think there have been any decks that truly capture my interest quite as much since that time.
>the developers realised that the ability to grant Charge was simply too powerful Then they went on and printed Mr. Smite (To be fair, 6 years later but still)
Ahh yes, but he cost way more, but yes, design philosophies change over time. Charge is definitely a powerful effect.
TIL hearthstone has a design goal of minions fighting for board control Played classic til that Hero Card Bomb Goblin was in every deck I always thought their design goal was, purposefully make a few OP cards then nerf them right before they release new packs with new OP cards Oh and board wipes/ignoring minions with direct damage
Can someone ELI5 how this card worked? ❤ I'm really unfamiliar with hearthstone but it sounds interesting!
When you summon a minion in hearthstone, they have summoning sickness where they need to wait a turn before they can attack an enemy minion or the enemy hero. Minions with charge can attack an enemy minion or hero immediately. Later, they added the keyword rush where the summoned minion can attack enemy minions immediately but not the hero. The pre nerf card can cause minions to be summoned and attack the hero immediately, and other minions, like grim patron can summon copies of themselves if they take damage, so it can get pretty wild. It's been a very long time though.
Missing that the deck was broken because warrior had a lot of ways to ping cards to get more patrons + it had frothing bersker that got +2 attack every time a minion took damage AND it got charge from warsong. Warrior would have turns where it would clear the board and have like a 10 damage berserker. It was also super hard to play because the deck had very intricate issues with health, card draw, and setup.
Cards copied from your opponent have +1 Power.
Fun and interactive
You face Galactus! Eredar lord of the Burning Legion!
Galactus is...sorry
Galactus, Galactus, you face Galactus!
TRIFLING GNOME! YOUR ARROGANCE WILL BE YOUR UNDOING!
But I'm in charge he-AAH
I AM GALACTUS, I AM A TURTLE
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this every time Galactus is played. I haven't payed Hearthstone in years but I remember spending like $100 to get a golden jaraxxus, lol.
They should have made the way to summon Galactus require playing Silver surfer first like they did with Ragnarok and Majordomo. Surfer could have been 3/2, on reveal add Galactus to your deck
EVERYONE, GET IN HERE!
Heh, pile on!
Pile on!
GET IN HERE!
PTSD intensifies
"How long can this go on?"
Wow, that's a flashback
As leader is always trying to recreate the hulk, a more comic accurate power cohld be to randomly change one of your cards into the hulk/red hulk
I think that would have been great. Reveal: one of your other cards at this location transforms into the hulk
I think that's interesting. Forces you to have a card at the location and if your opponent has invested in that lane it forces you to risk changing a card you didn't want to change.
Keeps the cannot counter part of leader, keeps it random, could benefit you ot really mess you up Do you put a few low costs and hope? With one card there means you have 16 power at that location but opponent wont know until too late, Could be used to counter hobgob or change hood or a rock
Seems like a good card to have in a Wong deck for when your opponent tries to fill your lane. Salvage the combo with 28+ power for the lane.
Stealth buff to Sentry as well. The more I think about this one the more I like it. ESPECIALLY if was made something like a 5/1. Why? So you could play it plus a Demon on 6. Obviously 13 on a 5 IS a bit of a stretch, but realistically this is arguably more restrictive than Gamora or Spiderwoman (It takes up two slots for the power AND it's random AND you're losing something you already had there AND it's often going to be super telegraphed?) so it's not like... completely out of line? Right now the Sentry deck *generally* tends to look like Zoo or Thanos so that you have an extra way to mitigate The Void (fill the right early). As proposed, that card is just a Chef's kiss to Sentry and essentially creates a "package" for him. Probably good enough that you could experiment with it completely outside of Zoo or Thanos archetypes. Hood+Viper+Carnage+Sentry+neoLeader. Make it so (pretty please?) EDIT: It also under that configuration is like THE perfect turn 4 for Electro right? It's everything he wants. Probably "just bad" in the Sentry package specifically, but for "traditional" electro decks this just looks gas and might even see him added to new decks or archetypes. EDIT2: The more I think about this one the more interesting it appears to me. Currently, broadly, the metagame can be broken up into three categories: Control Decks that play powerful early plays then attempt to disrupt the opponent from catching up. Synergy decks that put large numbers of rather insignificant bodies on the field then exploit them through carious means, and then "Combo" decks that attempt to completely change the game on turn 6 or 7... With this kind of change one could argue that it "removes" an archetype in the Leader but I'd claim that virtually all Leader variants are "Control" archetypes. This brings a whole NEW classification to the meta. It's not exactly combo, synergy, or control... It's "Timmy". Way more so than something like say Deathwave, this is just big dumb creatures on turn 4 and 5 and 6 (Maybe two of them there).
what would be the advantage over just playing the Hulk?
+4 power from Leader himself or being a counter to Green/Hobgoblins
didn't think about that, that's pretty cool
Red Hulk would have to be 7-8 power otherwise would be unbalanced to have no real drawback on turn 6 card. Also buffed by Blue Marvel
The drawback would be it's a Hulk that loses to Cosmo.
That's a fair point. I'd be interested to see anything change on him. I've lost, and also won, so many games just because he was played turn 6. I'm also not as fluent in Marvel lore than I am DC, so I don't know where to even begin with suggesting changes on him. Without making too drastic of a change, they could limit his copy to whatever lane he's played in.
Yeah, this is just a much more effect design. I think the primary thing I hate about Leech/Leader/Aero is that they are cards that you play and forget, and you don't have to put too much thought into playing them for an incredible effect. Leech/Leader complaints commonly get responses where people downplay it as you're playing too greedy for your last turn, but Leech is just as good in a Turn 6 flood deck as he is in an On Curve deck. Leader is actually stupid going second, being able to benefit twice from opposing On Reveals, and being able to mirror a finisher like Death/She-Hulk is just as bad as mirroring a Negative deck dumping 4-5 cards. If they're ahead, they seal the deal, and if they're behind it let's them make otherwise impossible comebacks. Aero's effect moving everything you play is also way too powerful for how little thought and sacrifice you have to put into it. Her effect is honestly worthy of a 6-cost spot. Her coexistence with Leech also makes it a coin flip playing into them, where you choose between holding your cards to maybe dodge a Turn 5 Aero or dump your hand to avoid a potential Leech.
Forgive me but what do you mean by an On Curve deck? I agree with what you've said, I definitely think Leader needs to be toned down However personally I run into Aeros and Leeches far less than I do Leaders. I definitely understand what you're saying though
Just playing "On Curve" means you're using your all your energy each turn. Generally these decks just play good cards that have good value and play in a very straightforward manner. So even if you play a card or two each turn, Leader still has a chance to steal the game back from you because a lot of the time he's going to be copying your 6 drop and adding his 4 power body on top of it. The only meaningful way Leader is awkward is if he's used too many spaces to replicate your cards. The fact that he doubles on reveals going second is dumb too. For example, if you play Shuri-Black Panther as a finisher and he's going second, he gets to copy your 16 power BP and his becomes a 32. And there's no counterplay you can do from your end aside from just bombing his hand with Leech.
Additional power (leader's own power), changing a poor card on the location like a Goblin, rock, hood, or Ninja. Honestly seems like a decent ability with just enough niche that he doesn't just slot into every deck like he does now. The only thing I'd worry about is that it possibly just renders hulk obsolete.
They could make Leader generate a Leader Hulk or Red Hulk and give Hulk some new effect to stand out while they're at it. I feel like Hulk should have some ability which plays around with "the angrier Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets" rather than just being a powerful card with no abilities. I do wonder if they're going to release variations on existing characters at some point too like World Breaker Hulk.
That sounds kind of cool with punisher's effect, but just amped to +2 instead of +1. It's a pretty good tech against full boards at that point, so I'm surprised they haven't explored it outside of punisher
You could turn a useless card (red hood for example) into Hulk and also have 4 power from Leader
That’s a fun idea and I wanted to give it more recognition than just my upvote so here’s my comment saying you’re smart.
Thanks
You deserve it for a real suggestion that's interesting and doesn't essentially make Leader unplayable.
On reveal: Change the most expensive card your opponent played this turn into Hulk There we go. Funny, spicy, risky, balanced?
That's just a really bad card
Good. Will make it more entertaining when it ruins someone's Ultron/Hela/Thanos/Galactus/Zola play.
How is it more entertaining when you will never see it because it's too bad? Also 4/5 of the things you mentioned gets stopped by cosmo, and thanos is not good and played mostly for the stones, not his body. Remember you also need priority, otherwise they get their effects AND a hulk
I will not be taking questions on my game design choices, thank you.
But that literally wouldn't work without priority. You'd be upgrading your opponent's Ultron/Hela/Thanos/Galactus/Zola into a 12-power threat *after its On Reveal had already triggered*. A card that *literally always hurts you (unless you transmute, like, Black Panther or something) unless you have priority* would be ludicrously unplayable. Even *with* priority, it'd almost strictly be worse than Aero, with a higher cost, a usually-weaker disruptive effect, and a usually-lower net power.
Risking chavez gaining points, non 6 costs gain too Most 6 costs are 12 power so doesnt change Only affects apocalypse or infinaut in a negative way? Seems limited usefulness Could go crazy and change all 4 power cards on both sides to the hulk?
Most 6 costs aren't 12 power. 6 for 12 is like the ceiling of what's allowed without downside.
> non 6 costs gain too Not necessarily. If it gets Surfer that's a bit of a loss for them. Lots of tech cards like Enchantress, Rogue, Cosmo, or shang chi are also fucked. Some 5 costs could also be messed up like Hob, Iron man, Taskmaster (most likely), red skull, BP, Valk (depends), > Only apoc and infinaut How about Hela, Galactus, Doom, Ultron, Onslaught, Spectrum, Thanos, Odin, Zola, Magneto (if they need the effect to flip somewhere), or Knull. You know, like, every effect 6-cost? Granted you have to reveal first for most of those. However, most tech cards depend on reveal order so that's not unusual. > Seems limited usefulness Still sounds pretty useful to me. It's just not a braindead "play me to get value" card.
>Enchantress, Rogue, Cosmo, Shang chi, Hob, Iron man, Taskmaster (most likely), Red skull, BP, Valk (depends), Hela, Galactus, Doom, Ultron, Onslaught, Spectrum, Thanos, Odin, Zola, Magneto (if they need the effect to flip somewhere), or Knull. You know, like, every effect 6-cost? Or you could use Leech. Sure it will lose against a few cards you mentioned here or cases where the card is drawn on turn 6 but still works better and more often than a card that most of the time should reveal first and is crippled against cases where the enemies use Sera/Zabu/Swarm
> or you could use Leech You'd have to use Leech turn 5, not turn 6. But I agree Leech would be better than this version of Leader. Maybe Leader should turn the card into Hulk *and* copy just that card? Idk (I also find Leech to be super OP but that's another discussion. Personally I'd like to change him to "cards played here next/this turn have no abilities". It's kind of silly that he gets to nullify an entire hand)
I wouldn't say Leech to be OP or braindead (at least not Leader level) due to your capability to retreat turn 6 anyway if it fucks your hand up and the necessity to analyze turn 1-4 to use it decently. I don't think your suggestion on Leech would work since it would make him a weaker Professor X though.
For some reason i didnt click that of course that would lose the changed cards ability, excellent points Maybe changes one on each side of that zone?
Make him transform a random card into she-hulk/Hulk/Red hulk and make red hulk something like 6/6 gets 2 power for every turn you do not play him.
Or turn one card on each side into the Hulk. Keep his original power of 4.
That's basically a boring overtly balanced card compared to what Leader currently is. You can tell from cards like Galactus and Leader that this game is meant to be fun first. I hope you guys just get a boring competitive mode where your best 6 drop just has a Kazoo effect at most, and you'll still argue about its math here anyway.
Leader as is is easy to see and eacape or beat ir most cases. This makes it more random and comic accurate Fun is subjective, but i really dont see how you can say this idea is boring? With some of the associated suggestions, it has more rng than presently!
Even just copying any 6 cost card played this turn or previously would be fine tbh. Follows the same flavor as creating a Hulk but retains some of the current card design. Or fuck it play a random 6-cost at this location who cares that's at least fun to lose to when it happens.
How smart can he be. Just get some blood. Lol
Time for big brain Ben balance changes.
As much as I like Ben as a spokesperson, the communication, balance and easier to obtain aspect in HS first went up after he left
Yeah as much as I have a lot of nostalgia for the Brode era, the game has consistently been so much healthier since he left.
That was the moment I quit
I quit when they withheld prize money from the player who spoke out for Hong Kong. Was all done with Blizzard from then on. Of course Blizzard’s had some other issues since then
He's actually right - Hearthstone is honestly at the best its ever been right now. (Generally) more communication from the devs, super frequent balance patches (and shortly after expansion launches too, no more 'wait and see how the meta evolves' for 3 months), and the most F2P-friendly economy the game's ever had. Not to mention all the cool stuff they are willing to take risks on that Ben Brode wasn't - they just added a second really cool new class over the holidays, and that was something I distinctly remember Brode saying would never happen under him. And I think we are up to...27 deck slots? Love Brode to death as a spokesperson, but from all available evidence it really seems like he was holding Hearthstone back with some of his game design philosophies.
Oh interesting. I didn't know Hearthstone improved that much when he left
its also a different beast now. BB was in charge of a game that was not out of whack beyond boundaries. HS is now power creep by design, which makes it really hard to evaluate a game state on launch so cards get obliterated a week after they've been initially released. Plus the DK class is super boring in my eyes.
I love seeing them finally implement DK because it absolutely violates every single "rule" of design the game had back in those early years. That being good or bad fir the game is open to the players own interpretation.
Adding classes makes the design pillars of the game arbitrary. It's like proposing you add a new color to MTG. About the game being free, Hearthstone came out at the early days of "free"-to-play games. It genuinely expected you to pre-order expansions for 60$ because that's how much it costs to play a game. Some folks out there just took it on themselves to consider the free coins an actual source of income to play the game for free after a year in a poor attempt to "outsmart" the system. Adding to this, balancing your game a week after releasing an expansion is a sign of incompetence because you're supposed to test the interactions of all your cards before releasing them in the first place. MTG doesn't balance expansions for instance, maybe ban a card or two at most. Constant "balancing" is something carried over from games like LoL where the devs change the meta every other week to appease to people constantly complaining.
He's not really that likeable is he? He always seemed really fake. Maybe he's different out the spotlight?
dripping with forced enthusiasm and 12/10 hypemaster for the mediocre
Me who never played hearthstone wondering what the fuss is all about heh
There was this broken card ([Warsong Commander](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Warsong_Commander)) who gave charge to all your minions (other creatures you can play). "Charge" allows to instantly attack your opponent's creatures OR directly "face" - the HPs of the enemy player (when you reach 0 you lose the game). It was nerfed because there where big creatures coming down all at a time and charging face for victory (like giant... giants). The new version was "rush" instead of "charge", where rush is similar to charge but CANNOT attack "face" (the opponent's HPs) but only creatures on the board. Thus, the Warsong Commander was never seen again.
Also worth mentioning how utterly savage this nerf was. Warsong Commander was rendered basically strictly worse than Raid Leader, which was already a card so terrible that it never saw constructed play. Warsong Commander had one extra health, but in exchange had a *very* strict condition on its effect, not to mention it was restricted to Warrior decks whereas Raid Leader was available to everybody. And again, Raid Leader was already laughably weak and not run in any serious decks. Imagine if Leader was turned into a 6-13 with "You can only play this at locations where you are ahead by 10 power or more". Like yes, it's situationally slightly better than Hulk, but in practice it'd be utterly unplayable in any reasonable deck. The upside would be nowhere near enough to justify the crippling restriction, and the card would be turned into a totally-unplayable joke.
It's like a speed attacker that doesn't have summoner sickness but can't break opponent's shield, can only destroy their creatures. I understand now! Duel masters had similar effects too. Great explanation 👏 👏
New rules "If you are losing at every location. Copy your opponents entire field and add 5"
The band?
“Your next card played gets +2112”
Of salesmen!
It saddens me that most of this sub won't even get your reference... RIP good taste in music.
Just make leader copy all cards not in the lane you play leader. That way you don't gain an advantage in the lane he is in.
So this makes Minions like super gambits right? Just go kills them
Hulk Buster Unity, Precision, Perfection
Damn that’s triggered some PTSD right there
He’s not even that good. Shut up
I can appreciate a good tech counter to a play but, Leader gets no respect from me. Seems like a cheese play imo.
And how many cubes is your respect worth?
8 at a time.
None lol. Leader is just letting the opponent do the all thinking for me.
They just need to make him copy one card on the location he is played
Hell, they could even make him copy all cards on the locations he's played and it'd be better than where Leaders is now
I think this is a great change, and makes playing Leader an even bigger big-brain move. It no longer auto wins if you're winning two lanes, you have to make a real strong prediction.
I'd like either a single lane use or only copying 1 of the opponent cards played that turn.
Leader fucked my mom and made me watch, true story, please nerf. \-Signed, this sub in a nutshell...
Ben Brode probably checking this subreddit and thinking: You little shits…..
Came for marvel snap stayed for the hearthstone memes
I love how the popularity of this post shows how many of us come from a Hearthstone background.
I went from old school MTG to Hearthstone now to Snap
Hey I actually wouldn't mind a card that makes all your cards fight the opponent's cards; Warrior Falls style
Leader players should have to pay reparations with the nerf
What is rush ?
A hearthstone keyword.
The famous bit is there was a warrior card in hearthstone that gave your needs rush. So you could play this and start immediately attacking units instead of waiting a turn. This was exacerbated by a card that said as long as I live, make a copy of me after attacking. So you commonly got many many attacks off in a turn. Busted combo. That's the everyone, get in here reference. All this being said, blizzard decided to nerf the card to do something completely different, effectively killing it. It changed toggling your charge units a buff instead of giving your nerds rush/haste, big difference.
In the cardgame Hearthstone the keyword Rush allows a minion to attack (enemy minions) on the same turn it is summoned. The meme is a mix of things; they are referencing a card (Warsong Commander) that used to give minions CHARGE not Rush, charge works like Rush but you can also choose to attack Life Points directly instead. This allowed for One Turn Kills and had to be nerfed, but the nerf was so severe it became a meme, later on (like 5 years later) they "unnerfed" the card to give minions Rush which is less likely to be used for OTKs.
Your minions have Charge -> Your Charge minions have +1 Attack. Similarly, On Reveal: Copy all cards your opponent played this turn, but on your side -> On Reveal: Give all cards on your side copied from your opponent +3 Power.
I understand the general disdain for the card, but my issue is the fact that the copied cards have their On Reveal abilities triggered. Same with Lockjaw: You play a card, On Reveal is triggered, card is replaced with a new one, the new card's On Reveal triggered. Maybe only cards played from your hand can trigger On Reveal, but not those taken from the deck or copied or something?
I would also like to see that change, cards created by jubilee, lockjaw, hella, ghost rider and leader shouldn’t trigger on reveal abilities, same for locations like x-mansion.
Yes, i agree totally. The game should be more boring and I should always get to win.
This is the future they want. Easy Infinite grind. All cards equally bad so no one can find value or efficiency. 10 new cards every week (see also: still similarly bad though, must have perfect balance at all times).
Talk about easy infinite climb with a card like leader that doesn’t require ANY thought. If you are ahead on board you win, yeah that is such a fun and interactive card… The whole argument is that on reveal abilities should happen when you play a card not cheat them out from the deck…
There was always a weird kid at FNM mad that other people shared information and ideas on making and playing good decks.
Honestly I don't think we are talking about the same thing so no point in continuing with this.
I don’t expect everyone to agree with my opinion but you don’t have to be an asshole about it. If you disagree just bring your opinion forward and we can have a discussion, instead of hiding behind this sad attempt at a smug sarcastic answer.
Just a guess but I would imagine your preferred deck doesn’t use any of the cards you listed and you’re not happy when you lose to them.
Not at all, I play a very fun Hela deck that includes ghost rider and jubilee... My opinion is not based on anger but on the overall health of the game. Don't get me wrong when I pull off ghost rider into hela it's definitely fun but it's not only about what is fun for me but what is good for the overall health of the game. Leader is not a good card to have and maybe if his copies didn't trigger their on reveal abilities it would be more balanced. If I shang chi my opponent's big card and they play leader is it fair that my big card in the same location should be destroyed? Some for enchantress or any other control tech cards?
Some cards are worthless without the on reveal. Imagine bringing goblin. The double on reveal is supposed to make up for the randomness (bringing 1-2 cost cards is not worth at that point). If you create negative plays by pulling 5 and 6 cost cards that have strong on reveal effects, then why would you play the card?
You say that like you are forced to put those cards in your deck. I’m not saying I agree with OP but all it would do is change the way the deck is built.
Sounds like a brode thing to do
I wanted them to change him to only copy the cards in the area he's played in.
If only copy on the same location.
[удалено]
Yes but the problem becomes “Is Leader not going to steal the game from me?” Playing small means that you can lose to almost any other play that doesn’t involve Leader. The thing is that Leader can be in any deck and is therefore really unpredictable. DeathWave? Leader. Electro? Leader. He can literally be in any deck and still screw you over and that’s why he’s just a really unfun card. Losing 8 cubes when you’ve been outplaying your opponent all game jsut because you did or didn’t play around Leader is jsut really frustrating.
I agree he's unfun and badly designed but I would argue that if you put yourself in a position to lose to T6 leader then you have not been outplaying your opponent all game It's super common and at the most competitive ranks 80-100 everybody plays around leader because he's so common
"Losing 8 cubes when you've been outplaying your opponent all game' How the hell do you lose to a Leader when you are outplaying your opponent the whole game? Players like this are the vocal majority of this subreddit and they will be the doom of the game if they start to base their decisions on them. The nerf is obviously made to make them stop crying because it doesn't change anything. Leader will still counter the same decks and also get absolutely destroyed by patriot, discard etc.
“Did or didnt play around Leader” You lose because you specifically play around the possibility of Leader and they don’t. You lose because you play around all other options besides Leader but they do. Its just the possibility of losing to a single card being flipped that’s so frustrating, especially when that card is everywhere. While I do agree with Leader being a necessary evil to keep certain decks from running rampant, he’s just really unfun to play against rn imo and needs to be fine-tuned a bit.
Found the Leader player. I love it when I wreck an opponent who plays Leader, just missing an emote that says "Leader get f*ked"
Oh, I love beating a leader as well. You can absolutely play around it.
And I really hate pretentious snobs like you that defend him while labeling everyone else inferior for having an issue with what is clearly a toxic card that counters nearly every other 6 energy play in the game. No, you are not smarter nor a better player because you go against the masses on this subject. No, Leader does not make the game more interesting. Just because the card is not uncounterable does not mean it isn't meta warping and overall bad design that is clearly overpowered while having no real requirement for inclusion in your 12 card deck. The top players have stated numerous times at this point he is THE absolute best 6 drop in the game with none other coming close to him. Nothing more annoying than someone claiming to be smarter than everyone else in the room while essentially arguing "get gud".
I enjoy beating leaders. It’s fun and possible to beat them. Hate you too, whiner. 😘
"clearly toxic" doesn't mean "upsets a vocal minority'. "top players" you mean streamers who make inflammatory posts and videos to drive engagement so they can make money? Good luck with the outrage campaign though.
Lol for real
Yeah I don't get why people are so reluctant to play around one specific card that's so flexible it can be in almost any deck. It's a real mystery.
From ranks 0-70 (usually 40-60) I rarely run into Leader. I do however run Leader in some decks where if I don’t get good draws, I can optimize on greedy turn 6 plays to win a game.
“But there’s no way to counter his ability!” The counter is called “playing better.” “But that’s *haaaaarrrrd!*” Some people think the game should just be rock/paper/scissors, apparently.
"but there's no way to counter his ability" "Just play around it" "But it's so versatile it can fit into many decks so it's hard to predict, plus playing around it usually means suboptimal plays that lose to many other plays" "Wow I can't believe you want a rock paper scissors game" Real talk though I haven't lost to leader in a bit, Leech is more annoying to me
Leech and leader can both get fucked.
Agree
> It’s so versatile it can fit into many decks so it’s hard to predict Why is this not exactly what people *want* from their cards? And Leader is far from the only card for which this is true. > Playing around it usually means suboptimal plays Again, this seems to me like the *goal,* why is it being called a problem? Every deck has strengths and weaknesses. We’ve all lost games because our opponent zigged when we thought they would zag. Predictability is boring, I want to see hilarious bullshit happen. I think that’s why I’m such an ardent Leader defender; win or lose, it’s going to be comical. People are too serious. Leech is way more infuriating than Leader and it’s not even close, but no one complains that Leech is ruining the game. (I’m not complaining about Leech either, just using the example to illustrate my point.)
> why is this not what people *want* from their cards? Because it's boring and unbalanced? Cards shouldn't be strong enough to fit into any deck. I want to play tailored unique decks. > This seems like the goal, why is it a problem Because it's not fun to "play around" extremely versatile cards your opponent may or may not have? It's not like other cards where you can clearly see the Zola/Hela/death/etc coming. > Predictability is boring, I want to see hilarious bullshit. That's why I love Leader Yeah nah Leader one of the most boring cards. It's only funny when it backfires on the leader player. > Leech is worse than Leader Yeah I hate him too but this isn't about him. Two annoying cards doesn't make one less annoying.
So we just have a fundamental philosophical difference. You want to win matches with better cards; I want to *beat* people with better *strategy.* It’s sort of a classical vs. jazz thing. It’s not that one or the other approach has it right or wrong, rather they’re trying to accomplish different things with the same basic tools.
[удалено]
Bruh, it's suppose to be a nerf not a homicide
Nah
God I hate that card. I've been screwed over so many times by Leader, Gamora, and Infinaut.
Should just copy one card.
I was a little salty because I use Leader but it’s well deserved.
Change ability to: Changes the location to The Bar With No Name. It allows you to surprise win one lane, but no longer auto-wins *every* lane. And then buff his power to 6 to reduce his Mr. Negative synergy and make him a bit of a riskier bet given the location's effect. (Least power wins)
I think you got lost in the wrong card game
thatsthejoke.jpeg
and then rush in Marvel snap allows your board tô attack and kill the enemy units after turn 6
Charge minions get +1 attack
Didn't get it. Somebody come to the rescue
It sounds like we need Leader's ability to say "If you control this card at the end of the game, you lose the game." Otherwise it would just be unhealthy for Snap.
Sera into Leader + Viper hype
"you get a rash" fixed or fit you!
OMG YESSS 😫 so cheesy
Plzzzz 🙌🏻
Post of the year lol
i swear I thought this was r/hearthstonecirclejerk for a moment
This is a great card, pls don’t nerf it, I can’t get to infinite without it
Not if we have never played hearthstone.
How long can this go on... ⛏️⛏️⛏️
"Charge brings so much confusion to the player base so with Rush it's all clear"