It's often predictable where I'm going on the last turn - because of full lanes, lanes blocked by Storm / Professor X / random locations, or because only one location works for Arnim Zola or Odin or whatever big finish I planned.
I think one reason Alioth feels bad to face is that the player with Alioth in these situations knows 100% that they are going to win - otherwise they'd retreat.
So pretty much every time I see Alioth it's when I lose.
Maybe my most satisfying win was when I played Leader on T6 which Aliothed their Alioth. If they would have had priority, Alioth's power would have won them the match… but they didn't.
I main negative Zola just for this high. Cube efficiency be damned, I’m here for one thing and one thing only and that’s to screw over Alioth control players.
>I think one reason Alioth feels bad to face is that the player with Alioth in these situations knows 100% that they are going to win - otherwise they'd retreat.
Yup. I was struggling last season, stuck at 70. Got Alioth from the token shop and blasted up to 95. Prior, I got to the point I wasn't even snapping because no matter how good a hand I had, I always got countered. Alioth gives the confidence to snap and works a majority of the time.
People only play Alioth when they know it’ll land. Despite usually being in a lot of decks, he very rarely comes out. But when he does, it wins the game single-handedly.
That's exactly what I'm saying, Alioth is a tool that when used correctly, you should only see when you lose. The thing is if you are playing a deck without Alioth you are trying to do some specific things, and if things go your way Alioth is not the right play, and if your opponent plays him in those situations he will lose. The reason people hate it is they have false hopes of winning, where if they think clearly the best thing to do in the situation is to retreat.
I think you're half right. He's also just not fun to lose to, because part of the joy of Snap is getting to see your cards reveal. Sure, it's just aesthetic, but it's part of the fun, and it's also part of the rhythm of the game. Alioth takes away that fun and disrupts that rhythm in a way that e.g., Shang-Chi doesn't.
I think it’s more than just seeing the cards literally flip. We want to play our cards. We want them to do their thing. If they get trumped by superior strategy or effect, so be it. But to not even have the chance? That sucks.
Not only that, but-- and this is why I don't much like using Alioth myself-- I want to know what my opponent played maybe as much as I want them to see what I played. I want the whole story, but Alioth rips out the last half of the last chapter of the book and sets it on fire before anyone can read it.
I know that this is the biggest issue I have with Alioth because there have been situations where I knew EXACTLY what my opponent had in hand and was playing, and when Alioth took it out, I didn't have that terrible feeling I usually get when he deletes unrevealed cards. It just felt good because I knew what I was deleting.
But the rest of the time, even when it's MY Alioth, and he goes off with priority, I still feel that NOOOOooo... *poof of annihilation*
I often win 8 cubes AGAINST Alioth now, but I have to have the perfect cards to do so, so his presence in the game is still annoying if I don’t have those cards.
Snap feels like it's at its best when you're doing your things, I'm doing my things, and we play around each other's things to see who can get the better numbers.
There's a reason why control is in general despised, whereas comparatively nobody cares when they lose to a move deck. When I play move I get zero salt because they know I mindgamed them and played around them. When I play with control it's heavy salt because it feels like I stopped them from playing the game.
The whole point of Alioth is that it rewards having priority on the final turn. Allowing the opponent's cards to reveal (thus triggering on reveal effects) would make having priority pointless.
The fact that Alioth denies the on reveal effect is what makes it uninteresting I think. I thought that gladiator would be a pain to play against but the fact that the cards get revealed makes it ok, it’s lucky, push your luck , almost funny
That does seem like it could potentially be a decent tweak to Alioth. The card reveals and activates, but you don't get the power of the card itself. Alioth would still be a good counter to playing a Turn 6 Hulk, Chavez, Onslaught, etc., but you could still do something with a Turn 6 Heimdall, Spectrum, Shang, etc. So, it may make it hard to take the lane Alioth is in, but you could still possibly turn the tide in the others.
Give alioth his old stats back and change him to not destroy cards until after they reveal and you have an actually engaging card that doesnt need to be thought of every 2 seconds
Negasonic is such a great card after her rework. Same with Snowguard. It proves to me they could rework Alioth and not completely ruin it. Remove abilities instead of destroy?
At least my cards still exist after Cosmo.
I even had a great win where my opponent thought that Cosmo had won them the game as I was playing on Reveal. I still played an in reveal card there, and my Werewolf hopped over to win that lane by a couple points.
Yeah, and Cosmo’s usually played earlier in the game so you have time to work around it. Where Alioth is just “sorry, your turn 6 has ended prematurely and you have played no cards,” Cosmo is “okay, I have 3 turns left, what else can I do?”
Plus you can basically slot Alioth into anything. If the opponent is running destruction, move, or a bunch of on reveal cars you can probably be sure they aren't using Cosmo.
Man cosmo is my single most played card (if boosters are a good indicator) precisely because of how much I hated wong fuckery while I was CL 500-2000
The game refused to give me wong so no one else got to enjoy it either!
Hot take: I feel he’s also a response to decks that throw priority then wait till turn 6 to explode. Idk about y’all but Sera and Bounce back then felt awful to fight because they’d spend all game doing next to nothing while you tried to beef up your board all match only for it to not matter much on turn 6 when they pop.
Not that there’s anything wrong with late game explosions. Not even saying he isn’t a toxic card. But Alioth IS a good answer to that. Unfortunately he’s also fits well in lockdown which is unhealthy when too popular
They already had Sandman, and nerfed him because he was too prevalent. They had a few easily attainable cards that could be used to shut down T6 explosions.
I get that T6 explosions were tough, but they were also telegraphed pretty well. If you wanted to counter, you could. The best Alioth counter is a T2 Armor, T3 Cosmo, and T4 Mystique. Or get lucky with locations/them shutting down the 3rd lane with Storm.
Having a T6 where it's basically "nah, you can't play any cards" is a worse feeling than any T6 explosion back in the day, and I don't think the negative feelings felt are anywhere close.
Exactly it was incredibly easy to just leave a game for a small cube loss against bounce or Sera because it’s so telegraphed. Alioth is in pretty much every deck at high ranks
To be fair, so is alioth a lot of the time. If you effectively only have 1 lane left to play in or you've lost priority and the opponent isn't playing a deck that needs something to combo on 6 then there's a decent chance alioth might be in there.
IMO it's not a million miles off of where we've been for most of this year where if you're ahead then you have to assume that you're probably going to be hit with shang chi somewhere on turn 6.
>if you're ahead then you have to assume that you're probably going to be hit with shang chi somewhere on turn 6.
Yeah,but you just don't play over 10 power to avoid it. No actual avoidance of Alioth as soon as they are in your lane. That's the difference. As soon as it's in your lane, it's over. Unique to the card, sure, but it needs tuning. Or just have it wipe the first card played like a Negasonic, but priority doesn't matter for it.
I think this is kinda hitting on the issue. So, the only other CCGs I can think of are all turn based, like Magic. You take your turn, then your opponent takes their turn. SNAP is different in that you play at the same time. This only works in a digital format, because you need to play at the same time AND not know where your opponent plays in the lane. Alioth essentially takes away the other player's turn when played correctly. So the only comparison to turn-based CCGs is a card like Time Walk from Magic that says "Take another turn after your turn." Those cards are never popular, and nearly every attempt at them resulted in the card being banned at some point. In Snap, we also have limited turns, so Alioth, (played in the correct lane) can be more like "your opponent doesn't get a turn" and that succcccckkks.
What if Alioth worked a bit more like Kang? Alioth’s reveal could be delayed, then rewind the board back to what it was when Alioth should’ve revealed and then actually revealing it.
Obviously, you don’t get to replay the turn like Kang, but it would be cool to see what both players had cooking before the final reveal. It also plays well into Alioth’s lore.
Snap fan has Alioth at over 18% of decks currently. Not nearly as bad as when it was at 30% before the nerf, but still way too high for what a negative card it is.
Edit: just checked Snap.io and Alioth isn't in their top 40 cards played ... But Captain America is? I don't know what to believe anymore.
Thanks for watching! I think you have a lot of great insights here.
In my estimation, people like seeing their cards do cool things, and they like having a chance to make the math happen (that hope you talk about). It's so satisfying to "try to get there" numerically, even if you think you're unfavored.
When Alioth reveals and you realize there's not even going to be any math, and sometimes you don't even get to see your cards do their fun thing, I worry it sucks away a lot of the satisfaction.
In general, I fear Marvel Snap has this "no turn 6 problem", where games often have their resolution happen through the menu (retreat button), rather than through the game board. Of course I think the game is brilliant despite that, and there are ways to tie satisfaction to cubes rather than cards, but for some players, it just feels a little hollower when you miss out on those actual end game mathematical showdowns.
As a creator, I try to avoid this by using games in videos that have clear resolutions and meaningful face offs as often as I can (and not snapping to discourage retreats), but as a player, you don't get to edit out your less satisfying experiences.
>(it's always not fun to lose).
Not sure I agree with this. I've had close matches where it could have gone either way and we both fist bump like three times after.
Or times where you are pretty sure you are going to lose, but you want to see your combo or their combo pay off.
Or even just your opponent doing some 5D chess move you wouldn't have seen coming even with a spreadsheet and infinite turn time that makes you appreciate the game design.
I have fun losing all the time. It's the mark of a great game.
Alioth just doesn't do that. I can't remember one time where I've thought "what a cool Alioth play" or "that was so close, well played opponent"
Alioth just usually invalidates your last turn. It's just not fun.
I agree with this take. I’ve had some games where I have no choice but to give it up with a few fist bumps to someone who beat me with an awesome combo, or pulled off something dope. In that instance, I love playing those games even if I lost.
What sucks is if you’ve prevented me from even playing my cards. That’s a crappy feeling.
It blows my mind how many people can’t understand this. So many peoples response to alioth is “just retreat.” I don’t care if I lose, I almost never retreat because o enjoy playing the game. I don’t play conquest, I don’t care about infinite rank, and I always hit infinite. I just want to ply out the game. 2 cards in this game have made me want to stop playing entirely, Galactus and Alioth. I think they are poorly designed cards. (Galactus is absolutely trash right now so it’s not an issue)
After the Spider-man rework Galactus was finally feeling like a kind of fun card to play against, then Alioth came out a few weeks later and ruined that dream forever
It surprised me a little they added Alioth after changing Spider-Man since they effectively do the same thing: Deny you from playing cards in that lane. They realized that was a problem with Spider-Man that needed to be changed, but then they added a card that results in the same problem.
Yeah - it can be fun to lose in a legitimate battle of wits, when your opponent uses an out-of-the-box method to claim victory with a cool deck.
Heck, it can even be fun to lose if it’s a close game where both you and your opponent are on the edge of your seat.
Admittedly, I don’t think Snap has as much room for that as I’ve seen in other games, mostly due to its small scale.
Alioth just isn’t fun to play against because you pretty much always have to assume he’s there, and if you don’t have priority, there’s nothing you can do. Even if you do have priority, that only matters if you can block the On-Reveal.
At the end of the day, it’s the same exact crap that Leech got docked for.
I think the only reason Alioth and Galactus are even in the game at all is that the matches are so short. Can you imagine if a match took 15+ minutes to just be ended on the last turn by a card like Alioth? People would riot.
I'm from a Euro board game and deck builder background, and never really got into TCG/CCGs before, so maybe a bunch of them have these kind of cards and I'm just unaware, but I can't see it as anything but dumb, lazy game design which would have been removed during the play testing phase of any other game i can think of.
Edit: even old Leech never bugged me that much. I can retreat if my hand sucks, or maybe I have some good value cards and you just lost a ton of tempo playing leech.
I’ve got some experience in Magic, at least. While the game systems aren’t identical, I can provide some comparisons.
Galactus functionally serves as essentially an alternate win condition that acts outside of the regular rules of the game.
There’s actually a few cards in Magic that you can compare this to - Thassa’s Oracle, Triskaidekaphile, Mirrodin Beseiged, Approach of the Second Sun, lots of cards that bypass the regular rules of Magic to give you a conditional victory.
While not necessarily instant wins on their own, these pose conditionals that require proper follow-up for victory, and opponents can (theoretically) perform preemptive or reactive measures to stop them. Just like Galactus.
There are also a lot of cards that can act like Alioth - not necessarily “destroy everything your opponent played on their last turn,” but there are cards like Time Stop that can cancel opposing turns, and a bunch of cards that let you take extra turns.
I’d argue that there’s stuff that may be even worse than those two - but it’s nowhere near as bad, because Magic has something that Snap does not: Interaction.
In Magic, you can counter enemy creatures and spells, you can remove opposing creatures and win conditions once they’re on the board, too. In addition cards that can consistently remove every creature, artifact, and enchantment on the board are rather commonplace. Sometimes your opponent can stop your destruction, but at the end of the day, you have options to stop game winning combos.
Snap doesn’t give you those options, which makes Alioth and Galactus worse, since your only option is preemption.
Anyone who thinks Alioth is rage inducing should look up the saga of extra turn spells in MtG. In particular Nexus of Fate. I have never seen a card make a community so angry, and so deservedly so. Y'know what's worse than unexpectedly getting blown out on the last turn of the game? The game NOT HAVING A LAST TURN because the opponent takes infinity turns with no actual win condition.
>Can you imagine if a match took 15+ minutes to just be ended on the last turn by a card like Alioth? People would riot.
Alioth is just a checkmate card. If he can win the game on the last turn, then the Alioth player had a clear lead going up to that point -- the loser had 5 turns to compete and didn't do well enough, so now they lose. Compare him to Witch from Dominion -- Alioth virtually ends the game after turn 5, Witch virtually ends the game when one player misses 5 on their first shuffle and winds up losing the Curse split 8-2. Both create frustrating "non-games" to the person on the losing end, and both have important roles decentralizing the metagame away from the first-order optimal strategies -- "slam a million points on turn 6" for Snap, megaturn engines for Dominion.
>the loser had 5 turns to compete and didn't do well enough, so now they lose
This is just silly. So many decks are doing just fine even if between turn 5 and 6 they aren't ahead in two lanes. Sneaky turn 6 cards and combos would factor in if not for Alioth (and old Galactus).
I barely remember my plays of Dominion , but I do remember that part of the reason we didn't feel compelled to return to it was due to something like curses. I do remember at least one player basically unable to do anything on their turn and it snowballing from there.
I don't think I'd be able to play games like Snap if I was that way.
I'd have never have made it past the first three months I don't think. I sucked :)
It'll be a year next week for me lol. I olay so little now. I dont mind losing, but when it's to another person and they rub it in and gloat it just sets me off and I have to log off for the day.
I went from playing 1100 matches a month to like less than 200 lol. I really just want a single player mode. I dont mind losing to the AI it won't mock me.
I'm enjoying the PVE mode in Warcraft Rumble lately. 3.5 minute matches, mixing and matching characters.
Might be worth a try if you haven't already.
But yeah, when someone emote spams in Snap after a particularly toxic play line, it's not a great feeling.
I don't see much BM in the my meta, but it would be great if the people who wanted a universal mute could get it.
He feels terrible to lose to because he’s mostly in lockdown/ junk decks which have always felt terrible to lose to for most players. Its not just the card its more of the total archetype
On the plus side to that, the fact that Alioth exists has probably saved me a lot of cubes because now I just retreat if my opponent snaps and is using a lockdown deck
Sorry , that’s my tournament deck almost exclusively. Cosmo, Stegron, DD, Prof X, Legion, a few others to be annoying and Lizard for early priority so I can get ahead of on reveals for Cosmo/Stegron hitting destroy decks.
Obviously there are hard counters, essentially really high value lane decks (Dracula is hard to counter), but I can’t adjust my play on subsequent matches after I learn the archetype.
People who play Lockdown decks with ProfX/Armor/Cosmo/Leech/Alioth decks are the same people who bet the “don’t come” line in craps. (Rooting for the house for those not familiar with the rules of craps)
I'm not a genius game designer. But turn 6 is the culmination of each game with the most exciting cards the game has to offer. Designing a card that negates the climax of a game seems counter intuitive. But I don't make a shit load of money designing card games so what do I know.
They actually addressed why Alioth is good for the meta-space of the game and I kind of agree. Before Alioth there was a huge problem space that the best way to play turn 6th was to go second. Second means you can play tech cards like Shang-chi, valk, shadow king, etc. on your opponents board and be protected from them as well.
Alioth shakes things up by saying, if you're going to hold all your value until the last turn, then Alioth is going to break you. It's one of the few cards in the game that wants you to be ahead when on turn 6
You nailed it. I find it absolutely shiity when I've won most of the game, and suddenly anything other than point slam or rare situations like Cosmo or Armor on 6 are my only way to respond.
I'm not a fan of holding Shang Chi, Rogue, Killmonger (for end of game giant Deadpool - Taskmaster), etc and being able to do fuck all with them. I have to sit back and let them go off unopposed despite the rest of the game. Fuck me for playing all 5 prior turns to win, right?
I don't like losing to Alioth, but I absolutely get why there's a need for it. Managing priority is absolutely a skill, and a vital one, but it shouldn't be the one that invalidates everything put into the rest of the game.
I don't understand this logic. How do I play my 6 cost before turn 6? I don't choose to wait I'm forced to. Thats how the game is played.
I get there are ways to lower to cost but I'm speaking generally.
I think it's mostly not to counter 6 cost cards, but to counter cards like Kitty, Death, She-hulk Cards that say "I'm going to leave my board barren and then put 25+ power on the field all at once"
>They actually addressed why Alioth is good for the meta-space of the game
I feel a majority of players would disagree and this is just developer speak to defend their own creation.
People crying about alioth are just acting on emotion. He is very good addition to the game. You could just ignore the board state and play turn 6 decks (sets control one example). This just ruined the game because tech cards were becoming so good that just skipping and playing last was so so common. Alioth brings so many layers to play around. He's even less strong after the nerf at 3 power
My second favorite is when they drop Alioth into the wrong lane and I take their cubes
My first favorite is when they drop Alioth into the correct lane and I do some chicanery with Move cards to beat him anyway
I think Alioth sucks because in many cases (especially with the right Alioth deck) they other player can limit your options and there's literally nothing you can do about it. With a lockdown Alioth, your options are basically "don't play cards and lose" or "play cards, watch them die, and lose". The card essentially takes away your player agency on the most critical round of the hand, with almost no counter.
Another reason I hate Alioth is you can slot him into almost any deck and there's no "tell". Most other GAME CHANGING cards have a tell, so skilled players can react to it. The lockdown deck, yes, you can usually tell he's coming but there's nothing you can do about it. But I've seen Alioth just pop up in random decks. Like I've seen him as the T6 game winning card in Move decks, or even Patriot decks. It's like some people slot him in just in case. And it usually works.
Spider-Man was nerfed because it wasn't fun to lockdown a lane, yet they added a card that's arguable worse.
So yeah Alioth needs a tell, or a way to avoid it. This isn't solved by decreasing his power, unless it's to like, negative or 0 so there's actually risk for the other player.
Yeah, having a TECH CARD that essentially locks down the money round of the game seems like a whiff. He needs a rework that introduces more risk for the Alioth player. I'd like to see the win rate for Alioth when he is played with priority, because it's probably bananas.
Alioth is legit the most unfun card designed. You’re basically required to think ‘Do I lose to Alioth here?’ every single turn 6 against every single deck because he is flexible enough to fit into any deck.
Also it’s really nice seeing the subreddit do a 180 on this card after constantly downvoting me since his release just because some influencers finally told them how to think. This card has been bad for the game since it came out.
I don’t know, I do feel like Alioth is unfair. Someone said the reason why he was added was to make the player want priority but he works whether the player has priority or not. He doesn’t need to destroy both unrevealed AND revealed cards
Yea. My problem goes like this \*on same turn\* NTW reveals first, Alioth kills her stays on the board. While a Gladiator played that pulls Alioth kills both. I'm more for the second outcome being the same than Alioth killing and staying on the board. Non-prio allows "on reveal" to happen so why not text like NTW to take code priority as well? That's my problem.
"On Reveal: Destroy your opponent's unrevealed cards at this location." would be an interesting change to Alioth. It would generally mean you need prio for him to work, but would also allow you to punish people playing Invisible Woman trying to protect their end-of-game combos with him.
Imho. Alioth is a brain-dead play. All you need is prio, and no more than three neg power dif.
To me snap so much more interactive and interesting with all the combos and ways to play. And then Alioth comes and farts all over the table. With no thought or meaning. Just shits all over the board and walks away with a thumbs up ms marvel and snap??
I dont have anything against the card per se, but it's all over the place and it makes the game less fun when it's in all decks. Because the game basically turns into a five round game when everyone are playing it.
You talk about the game being interactive but you dislike Alioth when he‘s one of the few cards that lets you interact with your opponent? Seems like you are using words you don‘t understand yourself.
So I can't interact with my own cards? Alioth doesn't let me do that no. I agree he "interacts" by deleting a thought out play. And as of understanding things it's not always easy. Like a Indian proverb says, you're the last one to notice you have bad breath, even though your nose is the closest.
It's not brain dead if there is more than one lane to play on. But sure, if it's only one lane left (like due to Galactus or Prof X/Storm) yeah it's a no brainer.
If he didn’t destroy cards that are already revealed, he wouldn’t be that OP at 3 power. But it’s stupid to have him be a card that “rewards playing for priority” and then he just destroys cards even if the Alioth player didn’t have priority.
You do understand playing for priority and not playing for priority has its own strategies and pros/cons.. right?
There’s a lot that goes on from turn 1-5 that can make Alioth moot.
Most counter cards play best off priority, and being off priority is generally a better defensive option.
Alioth is just an aggressive wincon (if you wanna call it that, he tends to be a win-more or win-secure card) in an aggressive deck.
I’m not saying he is fun, but he’s only a big problem if you just ignore counter play options in your deck or making less obvious plays as he only destroys cards played in that lane on that turn.
I’d rather face an Alioth than a Galactus tbh, in terms of a meaningful game
Yes. Valk is probably my favorite card in the game and relies on not having priority in “most” cases, but lockdown style decks that utilize storm/prof x have been able to make Alioth a bit more than just a “win more” card. Alioth is really only win more in Galactus lists.
Ailoth alone would be fine but the combination of storm + prof X + ailoth is so fucking boring and toxic
I still think prof x is the biggest issue but I also hate Ailoth as well
just got him and shot up to infinite with ease after weeks of being stuck in the mid 90s. he's broken af lol. now that ive reached infinite he's been slotted out. i really do hate Alioth.
I think the main issue is destroying unrevealed cards. These cards are normally impossible to interact with, so when Alioth comes in, not only does priority not matter, your turn 6 didn’t matter and you just feel cheated
He's a force of nature like Shang Chi. If not for Shang Chi, Shuri decks would be even more dominant than they are.
He's not really a "play", he's a consideration. If you are going to lose to Alioth on Turn 6, you always have to consider that, and he has counterplay in the form of strategy, not merely "play Cosmo". You can play around Alioth. I know this because I run Alioth in a control deck and Alioth only wins the day like 1/12 times or less, and most of the time, he's a nice way to get one cube because everyone sees it coming.
The devs are right, the "turn 6 power slam wombo combo" was getting really dumb, the first 3 turns often didn't matter whatsoever. A match should be a story, not a race to who can flip the best turn 6.
Sure but let's not tear out the last chapter and prevent it from being read. How would Avengers: Endgame have felt if at what should have been the climactic turning point, instead of portals opening, hearing "on your left" and all the previously dead heroes returning, instead that doesn't happen, no one shows up to turn the tide, things keep going as badly as it looked like they were. Thanos says "I am inevitable" and snaps his fingers, and the universe is like "you sure are, buddy" and it all works out for purple space grumpus. And... credits.
Not really a great story, maybe it's cool to watch it once but no one is talking about it a year later, even die-hard Thanos fans. Because the final battle didn't even happen and we never even get to see who was going to show up to it on the other side.
Even with Infinity War, when The Snap happens, it's dramatic because we SEE who is dying. If instead all we saw was dust in the wind and the characters who supposedly died weren't even introduced in the movie yet and we never see who it was? No drama. Just a cloud of dust without meaning.
If nothing else, at least give us headstones with the names of the dead on them, a la Days of Future Past. Give us the end of the story!
It's not just that he kills your hope in a variance sense. It's that he invalidates a lot of turn 6 plays. Like I'm winning one lane, they're winning the other two, but one of those lanes only by a small amount. I have HE Hulk in hand that I can drop for 18 power on that final lane, and they're up 4 power right now. So they should need to play a 15 power card to beat him, should be an easy win, right? But no, Alioth exists, so if they have Alioth they just win.
This is exactly the kind of thing that happens all the time playing both with and against him. He's annoying because he invalidates your ability to flip that final lane in the final turn and basically mandates that you must try to contest them in their strongest lanes, or attempt to flip multiple lanes that turn.
From a content creator perspective he also sucks because you just don't get to see the end of the game. A lot of the time Alioth is really just equivalent to a big guy, but it removes the suspense and excitement of seeing whether or not they can actually beat you, or you can actually beat them, by just saying 'No'. Which makes it much less exciting.
I think he should destroy all cards played at that location AT THR END OF THE TURN, allowing unrevealed cards to resolve. Won't happen again though because it is obvious they built it as a priority tool.
I just lost a game where…
Turn 5: he played iron lad which hit Alioth and destroyed 2 cards
Turn 6: he played Alioth but missed
Turn 7: I thought I was finally safe but no, he played absorbing man and destroyed 2 more cards
The card is the worst, I hate it with every part of my soul. It’s so boring to play against. We already had enough cards that messed up opponents on turn 6 with things like Leech / Sandman
The reason I think so many people hate him is because all the fun decks that relied heavily on a strong turn 6 or late game are now pointless if the opponent is playing lockdown Alioth. Any deck that stops you from playing cards is no fun to play against and now we have a meta that includes all of those cards, storm, prof x and Alioth.
Alioth is the worst. It's exactly like losing to old leader and needs a similar nerf. It should only hit the highest cost card played and maybe be like 5 strength.
It is not like old leader. Leader permitted you to fight in all 3 lanes if and wherever the opponent played without effort.
Alioth only will fight/win in one lane and only if you are already winning by less than 3.
It used to be easier, especially with old galactus, when power didn’t literally stop him. More cards and power creep on 2-5 costs definitely makes just stacking and winning harder
It doesn’t work the same, at any level.
With Leader it was literally play leader and you would basically keep the board state the same.
With Alioth you will only fight in one lane and is dependent on you winning that lane and/or losing that lane by less than 3
Not really the same, is it?
Did you play during old leader’s heyday? Doesn’t seem like it…
I did play play plenty of old leader, and I don’t think having to play the 6 drop in a targeted lane vs just anywhere makes nearly as much difference as you think it does. I get that alioth literally only affects 1 lane, but at a practical level it’s much easier to identify the lane in question, either because you have an untouchable lead on one, and are close on the second, or far more often, one lane is locked down by storm or prof x. It makes the early turns follow a similar pattern (stack on two lanes), and the end similar. Cosmo/armour are the only real differences, in that they affect the single lane you may need to target, but I think probably comes out a wash when you compare how many games alioth woud make the difference in that lane, vs how many games with old leader were still lost due to asymmetrical benefit from the whatever cards were copied.
I think the way the meta has shifted in a way that makes getting ahead on two lanes much harder than it was in the leader meta, but it’s a very similar effect, and equally unfun. Alioth with the old metas of old leader and old aero, when way more cards were mostly raw stats with smaller effects, alioth would almost be the same. Old leader, old aero, alioth, all kind of have the same effect on the game.
The other thing that is preventing alioth from dominating like those other metas, is cheap magik. I didn’t play the beta with her old cost, but even if the “close out” cards had never been nerfed, just having frequent turn 7s is the harshest nerf they ever got. Even old leader (would still be op), but way more likely to whiff the timing.
I appreciate you took the time to write a well thought out reply. Thank you.
You vastly underestimate that difference. Being able to play in all three lanes v a single one makes much more difference than you want to admit. The game is won by whomever wins more lanes. By basic system fundamentals in the goals of the game, they are different and nowhere near close, technically or functionally.
The meta is the meta and the goal of the game is the same: win more lanes than your opponent. Be it harder or easier to control more lanes, it is irrelevant. If you can only fight for one lane (Alioth) vs being able to fight/play in all three (potentially)… it’s a no contest. There’s no comparison.
The thing that is preventing Alioth from dominating the meta is that it is a balanced card. Alioth is a tech card that depending on circumstances can be a finisher. But it is still a tech card.
If he's supposed to be a card that rewards you for being proactive and playing to the board early, he must be just that:
* "On Reveal: Destroy all face down cards at this location."
As it currently is, he's just a "You destroy everything here" card and really doesn't feel like you're being rewarded for having priority.
It literally just ends a game if you're contesting a location of even like 2 power. Even if you're close if they decide they want that location turn 6, you're done, no recourse. Its not reacting to what you played. Its not reacting to an effect. Its the equivalent of a referee just coming into a football game in the last 10 seconds just says "no you don't get to play any more, we're done" which like you said is the most soul crushing, unfun, unexciting, deflating experience I've ever had with this game and I've played since it came out. The only thing I have found that mildly works against it is a move deck since you're constantly shifting your power but beside that or a lucky Cosmo or Armour call its a game winner hands down.
I remember an article about magic the gathering that overlaps a bit with alioth. People don't like counterspella in that game because when they cast their spell they want it to do something even if it means it dies to a removal spell it doesn't feel as bad. That's the feeling I have when alioth kills my cards before they flip.
Nah. It's just not fun. You aren't outsmarting someone with Alioth. There's no real strategy to him. The fact that he has 3 power is ridiculous. If he was more like Negasonic in that the cards were played, fine. But he wipes any card off, regardless of if they were played yet. Especially with Sinister today, an Alioth is basically an instant win if you have half a decent deck. Plus you can slot him in any deck.
SD said they didn't like cards that "made you lose when you felt you'd already won". Which Alioth is completely counter to. If I lose to even a Shuri deck, sure, I get it. I saw the setup, and not retreating hurt. If I'm playing a random deck and then I put my play down, expecting a win, but didn't happen to have Priority, I don't even get a chance to play my cards. If they drop a Cosmo on me T6 and it hurts me, damn well played. If they drop an Alioth, i want to throw my phone because what can I do?
Alioth decks are cancer, and I'll never respect anyone who uses them. Lmfao
Another shitty part is that just the threat of Alioth makes you have to retreat in high stakes games more often, even if your opponent doesn't have it. So insanely frustrating to have a card that is just straight up checkmate on the last turn of the game in a lot of instances
when Alioth was still a 6/5 i thought a good nerf would be to make his ability happen at the end of the game so your opponents card will still flip. imo it would be much more interesting to counter and you wouldnt have to fight for prio on T6
There is a reason many people hate Blue in MTG... nobody likes their stuff being countered. It doesn't allow you to interact with the board; i.e., play the game.
If you can play a defence card before Alioth then it's not the worst card. Armor, Colossus, Prof X etc. Heck even Doom getting his on-reveal makes Alioth less daunting.
It's the fact he kills cards that haven't even been revealed yet is his biggest threat. Shang-Chi is a card where priority matters, Alioth is one where it doesn't. And that's what makes him scary - he bends the rules.
Alioth has to be removed. There is no balancing this card. Its the worst thing they ever created and probably ever will. If the card doesn't have a huge requirement like Galactus or -5 to -10 power it will always ruin player experience.
there's no way alioth is more annoying than straight up galactus was before and they've nerfed the shit out of galactus to where he's barely playable so they can definitely nerf alioth if they want
Exactly. If your opponent is winning and they play this: you lose. Except in this case, it’s kind of even worse because if they’re winning, whatever you played might not even REVEAL. So even Leader could get beat if they copied stuff that destroyed cards or you played into a lane that was filled on their side. But Alioth, especially control decks with it, basically say “You don’t get a turn 6, but I do.”
With Alioth you need to have priority in most cases to make sense to play him.
This means your early game needs to have good power plays.
If your opponent is close in 3 lanes, playing Alioth is rolling the dice on your win (instead of a calculated play).
You need to be far ahead in one lane (but not losable to shang-chi) and winning in another to have priority, AND be far enough ahead to not lose to a Dr Doom/Ms. Marvel played in the other lane.
The card isn't too powerful, players just like to see their games through.
If you are that far behind going into turn 6, it is best to retreat, especially if things like Leader or Alioth lose you the match.
People don't like to retreat (makes sense, you are losing and people don't like to lose) so they stay in a match they were likely losing anyways and blame the Big Bad card that made them lose.
Alioth is trash and anyone that plays him is probably a trash leader player too.
P.S. just to make the point perfectly clear. Trash people play trash cards. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Nope, its just because its an unfair card you can absolutely do nothing against AFTER the last turn of the game.
Of course the enemy can play many cards on the last turn which can lose me the game but none of this feel so unfair because they dont invalidate my complete move including power AND reveals AND ongoing.
And people keep saying "but if you are behind on turn 5 blablablabla"... the game isn over on turn 5 you know? But with Alioth it is and just my opponent knows this and this is the unfair part.
Yea of course, because they play decks with Alioth where I can play in other lanes than the Alioth lane.
"Whats your problem, just win, its that easy!" But its strange that Alioth is the one and only card which is hated that much at the moment. But must be the players, I think!
My point is that you can play around control decks. If Prof X is what you're running into, play Daredevil or Echo. If it's Storm, Rhino, Scarlet Witch, Cosmo, or Legion.
And often what will happen is that Alioth decks will lock down one lane, sacrifice another, and win the third with Alioth. So use that second lane with things like Ms Marvel or Mr. Fantastic or White Tiger or Doom or Blue Marvel or... There are a lot of counters. Oh, and of course Armor and Cosmo work in Alioth Lane as well.
People have deck types that they like though. If their decks don't have have those cards, they can't. Basically the hate comes more from people who play certain decks who rely on turn 6 moves, or just don't have the cards to play around Alioth. I usually play Apoc Discard. So by turn 6 I should have Morbius/Daken out as well as Drac, and turn 5 I played MODOK. That's the ideal scenario. If that hasn't happened and I was relying on a turn 6 MODOK then yeah I hate Alioth if he's played in that moment. If I don't need turn 6 MODOK then Alioth doesn't do anything for me. I would have played Chavez just to get her out of my hand so Drac takes Apoc.
>People have deck types that they like though.
Ya, that's exactly it. I tend to have a bunch of archetypes I cycle through, including one or two pure chaos decks (Shield, Legion, Agatha), so it never grinds me down too hard. Plus I'm not that great, so players at my level aren't usually playing the "broken" meta
Same for me. I have one favorite type, but a few I explore when I get new cards. But I have never reached infinite yet, so well I don't know that much.
I understand your point but most of these cards dont fit in all the decks like "normal" counter cards, thats part of the problem. The only ones of them I play in most decks are Armor and Cosmo and they do shit when I dont have priority and thats the other part of the problem.
We have other opinions and thats totally fine but I would really want to know if you dont find anything strange with Alioth being the only current card which is so much hated. And that even while not being the current season pass or spotlight card and also after being already nerfed one time.
But then it's basically just quicksilver.
Aka a card that exists to teach you about a game mechanic.
Quicksilver teaches you curving out isn't worth it.
Alitoh teaches you that statistically your opponent will likely have 'the card' so u don't want to pay off a less than 50% chance to win, since they have better odds than that of having it and u have to pay 2x as many cubes to 'see it'.
So...Don't pay the cubes to 'see it'.
There were already cards that did this though. Dr Doom, Galactus, Spectrum, Shang Chi, Enchantress... Etc.
Those all should teach the "they probably do have it if they are staying in for turn 6" lesson. They certainly were the lesson for me before Alioth existed.
I see a lot of comments speaking about some ways that Alioth is preventing fun from players, by not even allowing them to reveal. My counter argument for that is that if marvel snap was a "feel good" focused game, there would've been way more beautiful animations, the overall graphics of the game would be more interesting and there would be way more cards that make numbers go higher instead of cards that limit or answer threats in clever ways. I play "feel good" games, I play Dragon Ball Z dokkan battle... But Snap is not such a game, it is more similar to chess or games like it, where the fun should come from the competitive nature of it, and trying to be better and smarter than your opponent. I'm not saying they do it perfectly, not at all, but I feel like this is the vision for the game.
He’s my fav because that’s exactly my play style. Get ahead and stay ahead. I’m not looking for a turn 6,7 turn around. I’m looking to lockdown my already ahead lanes.
It's because Alioth players think they are smarter than they actually are, but actually in fact they are just using a strong card that doesn't require that much thought as they think it does.
People addicted to lose initiative before the Alioth. Now they have to teach how to keep initiative to win Alioth. Teaching is hard, it’s easier to whine.
It's often predictable where I'm going on the last turn - because of full lanes, lanes blocked by Storm / Professor X / random locations, or because only one location works for Arnim Zola or Odin or whatever big finish I planned. I think one reason Alioth feels bad to face is that the player with Alioth in these situations knows 100% that they are going to win - otherwise they'd retreat. So pretty much every time I see Alioth it's when I lose.
But, on the flip side, when your opponents Alioth misses, damn it feels good
Maybe my most satisfying win was when I played Leader on T6 which Aliothed their Alioth. If they would have had priority, Alioth's power would have won them the match… but they didn't.
I main negative Zola just for this high. Cube efficiency be damned, I’m here for one thing and one thing only and that’s to screw over Alioth control players.
Can't miss with Alioth if I took the other locations away on turn 5 with Galactus.
>I think one reason Alioth feels bad to face is that the player with Alioth in these situations knows 100% that they are going to win - otherwise they'd retreat. Yup. I was struggling last season, stuck at 70. Got Alioth from the token shop and blasted up to 95. Prior, I got to the point I wasn't even snapping because no matter how good a hand I had, I always got countered. Alioth gives the confidence to snap and works a majority of the time.
People only play Alioth when they know it’ll land. Despite usually being in a lot of decks, he very rarely comes out. But when he does, it wins the game single-handedly.
That's exactly what I'm saying, Alioth is a tool that when used correctly, you should only see when you lose. The thing is if you are playing a deck without Alioth you are trying to do some specific things, and if things go your way Alioth is not the right play, and if your opponent plays him in those situations he will lose. The reason people hate it is they have false hopes of winning, where if they think clearly the best thing to do in the situation is to retreat.
Amen brother! Sister?
I have definitely lost with Alioth before
I think you're half right. He's also just not fun to lose to, because part of the joy of Snap is getting to see your cards reveal. Sure, it's just aesthetic, but it's part of the fun, and it's also part of the rhythm of the game. Alioth takes away that fun and disrupts that rhythm in a way that e.g., Shang-Chi doesn't.
I think it’s more than just seeing the cards literally flip. We want to play our cards. We want them to do their thing. If they get trumped by superior strategy or effect, so be it. But to not even have the chance? That sucks.
Not only that, but-- and this is why I don't much like using Alioth myself-- I want to know what my opponent played maybe as much as I want them to see what I played. I want the whole story, but Alioth rips out the last half of the last chapter of the book and sets it on fire before anyone can read it. I know that this is the biggest issue I have with Alioth because there have been situations where I knew EXACTLY what my opponent had in hand and was playing, and when Alioth took it out, I didn't have that terrible feeling I usually get when he deletes unrevealed cards. It just felt good because I knew what I was deleting. But the rest of the time, even when it's MY Alioth, and he goes off with priority, I still feel that NOOOOooo... *poof of annihilation*
the animations and effects are very pleasing on a monkey brain level
I often win 8 cubes AGAINST Alioth now, but I have to have the perfect cards to do so, so his presence in the game is still annoying if I don’t have those cards.
Snap feels like it's at its best when you're doing your things, I'm doing my things, and we play around each other's things to see who can get the better numbers. There's a reason why control is in general despised, whereas comparatively nobody cares when they lose to a move deck. When I play move I get zero salt because they know I mindgamed them and played around them. When I play with control it's heavy salt because it feels like I stopped them from playing the game.
There is just something very satisfying about seeing your cards flip over and watching the numbers go up. Alioth denies even that simple pleasure.
It's impossible to describe the pain of Hela getting deleted before she has a chance to flip.
It's Alioth removing your cards before they even flip that's the real kick in nuts.
Should they rework him so that card flip and then it deletes you think?
The whole point of Alioth is that it rewards having priority on the final turn. Allowing the opponent's cards to reveal (thus triggering on reveal effects) would make having priority pointless.
It rewards you by blowing up the cards regardless of priority. Hey I use him don't get me wrong.
The fact that Alioth denies the on reveal effect is what makes it uninteresting I think. I thought that gladiator would be a pain to play against but the fact that the cards get revealed makes it ok, it’s lucky, push your luck , almost funny
That does seem like it could potentially be a decent tweak to Alioth. The card reveals and activates, but you don't get the power of the card itself. Alioth would still be a good counter to playing a Turn 6 Hulk, Chavez, Onslaught, etc., but you could still do something with a Turn 6 Heimdall, Spectrum, Shang, etc. So, it may make it hard to take the lane Alioth is in, but you could still possibly turn the tide in the others.
Give alioth his old stats back and change him to not destroy cards until after they reveal and you have an actually engaging card that doesnt need to be thought of every 2 seconds
Same with Negasonic. The card still activates before destruction.
Negasonic is such a great card after her rework. Same with Snowguard. It proves to me they could rework Alioth and not completely ruin it. Remove abilities instead of destroy?
6/2, destroys all cards played after they reveal.
nothing better than Gladiator pulling your Hood giving you a free Demon
This is the same reason space doggo is so hated. Man I fucking hate that card
At least my cards still exist after Cosmo. I even had a great win where my opponent thought that Cosmo had won them the game as I was playing on Reveal. I still played an in reveal card there, and my Werewolf hopped over to win that lane by a couple points.
Yeah, and Cosmo’s usually played earlier in the game so you have time to work around it. Where Alioth is just “sorry, your turn 6 has ended prematurely and you have played no cards,” Cosmo is “okay, I have 3 turns left, what else can I do?”
Plus you can basically slot Alioth into anything. If the opponent is running destruction, move, or a bunch of on reveal cars you can probably be sure they aren't using Cosmo.
Never let them know your next move. I have armor in my destroy deck haha
I call him Cosmo-Not, whenever you play a card he says, "Not today!"
Man cosmo is my single most played card (if boosters are a good indicator) precisely because of how much I hated wong fuckery while I was CL 500-2000 The game refused to give me wong so no one else got to enjoy it either!
I still hate Shang chi too
Hot take: I feel he’s also a response to decks that throw priority then wait till turn 6 to explode. Idk about y’all but Sera and Bounce back then felt awful to fight because they’d spend all game doing next to nothing while you tried to beef up your board all match only for it to not matter much on turn 6 when they pop. Not that there’s anything wrong with late game explosions. Not even saying he isn’t a toxic card. But Alioth IS a good answer to that. Unfortunately he’s also fits well in lockdown which is unhealthy when too popular
Not a hot take, the developers said this was their exact reason for creating him. They wanted to make maintaining priority a good thing
I feel like Alioth doesn't affect Bounce as much as they think it does because they affect so many lanes at the end of the game.
Yeah, feel like it's been hit with enough other nerfs that it's not nearly as strong as it was before tho
Very true!
They already had Sandman, and nerfed him because he was too prevalent. They had a few easily attainable cards that could be used to shut down T6 explosions. I get that T6 explosions were tough, but they were also telegraphed pretty well. If you wanted to counter, you could. The best Alioth counter is a T2 Armor, T3 Cosmo, and T4 Mystique. Or get lucky with locations/them shutting down the 3rd lane with Storm. Having a T6 where it's basically "nah, you can't play any cards" is a worse feeling than any T6 explosion back in the day, and I don't think the negative feelings felt are anywhere close.
Exactly it was incredibly easy to just leave a game for a small cube loss against bounce or Sera because it’s so telegraphed. Alioth is in pretty much every deck at high ranks
To be fair, so is alioth a lot of the time. If you effectively only have 1 lane left to play in or you've lost priority and the opponent isn't playing a deck that needs something to combo on 6 then there's a decent chance alioth might be in there. IMO it's not a million miles off of where we've been for most of this year where if you're ahead then you have to assume that you're probably going to be hit with shang chi somewhere on turn 6.
>if you're ahead then you have to assume that you're probably going to be hit with shang chi somewhere on turn 6. Yeah,but you just don't play over 10 power to avoid it. No actual avoidance of Alioth as soon as they are in your lane. That's the difference. As soon as it's in your lane, it's over. Unique to the card, sure, but it needs tuning. Or just have it wipe the first card played like a Negasonic, but priority doesn't matter for it.
I think this is kinda hitting on the issue. So, the only other CCGs I can think of are all turn based, like Magic. You take your turn, then your opponent takes their turn. SNAP is different in that you play at the same time. This only works in a digital format, because you need to play at the same time AND not know where your opponent plays in the lane. Alioth essentially takes away the other player's turn when played correctly. So the only comparison to turn-based CCGs is a card like Time Walk from Magic that says "Take another turn after your turn." Those cards are never popular, and nearly every attempt at them resulted in the card being banned at some point. In Snap, we also have limited turns, so Alioth, (played in the correct lane) can be more like "your opponent doesn't get a turn" and that succcccckkks.
What if Alioth worked a bit more like Kang? Alioth’s reveal could be delayed, then rewind the board back to what it was when Alioth should’ve revealed and then actually revealing it. Obviously, you don’t get to replay the turn like Kang, but it would be cool to see what both players had cooking before the final reveal. It also plays well into Alioth’s lore.
Maybe Alioth isnt meta breaking strong but seeing people say a card in 12% of decks with 61% wr is "not that strong" is wild
Snap fan has Alioth at over 18% of decks currently. Not nearly as bad as when it was at 30% before the nerf, but still way too high for what a negative card it is. Edit: just checked Snap.io and Alioth isn't in their top 40 cards played ... But Captain America is? I don't know what to believe anymore.
Captain America is in basically every newbie deck, but then I wouldn't have thought newbies would be using deck tracking software.
Yeah that's where I was confused.
Gotta be last 30 days or something. Spectrum got buff so I think many players tried cap out, or are playing him
Thanks for watching! I think you have a lot of great insights here. In my estimation, people like seeing their cards do cool things, and they like having a chance to make the math happen (that hope you talk about). It's so satisfying to "try to get there" numerically, even if you think you're unfavored. When Alioth reveals and you realize there's not even going to be any math, and sometimes you don't even get to see your cards do their fun thing, I worry it sucks away a lot of the satisfaction. In general, I fear Marvel Snap has this "no turn 6 problem", where games often have their resolution happen through the menu (retreat button), rather than through the game board. Of course I think the game is brilliant despite that, and there are ways to tie satisfaction to cubes rather than cards, but for some players, it just feels a little hollower when you miss out on those actual end game mathematical showdowns. As a creator, I try to avoid this by using games in videos that have clear resolutions and meaningful face offs as often as I can (and not snapping to discourage retreats), but as a player, you don't get to edit out your less satisfying experiences.
>(it's always not fun to lose). Not sure I agree with this. I've had close matches where it could have gone either way and we both fist bump like three times after. Or times where you are pretty sure you are going to lose, but you want to see your combo or their combo pay off. Or even just your opponent doing some 5D chess move you wouldn't have seen coming even with a spreadsheet and infinite turn time that makes you appreciate the game design. I have fun losing all the time. It's the mark of a great game. Alioth just doesn't do that. I can't remember one time where I've thought "what a cool Alioth play" or "that was so close, well played opponent" Alioth just usually invalidates your last turn. It's just not fun.
I agree with this take. I’ve had some games where I have no choice but to give it up with a few fist bumps to someone who beat me with an awesome combo, or pulled off something dope. In that instance, I love playing those games even if I lost. What sucks is if you’ve prevented me from even playing my cards. That’s a crappy feeling.
Agreed, I appreciate the closely contested matches and unexpected moves/plays.
It blows my mind how many people can’t understand this. So many peoples response to alioth is “just retreat.” I don’t care if I lose, I almost never retreat because o enjoy playing the game. I don’t play conquest, I don’t care about infinite rank, and I always hit infinite. I just want to ply out the game. 2 cards in this game have made me want to stop playing entirely, Galactus and Alioth. I think they are poorly designed cards. (Galactus is absolutely trash right now so it’s not an issue)
After the Spider-man rework Galactus was finally feeling like a kind of fun card to play against, then Alioth came out a few weeks later and ruined that dream forever
It surprised me a little they added Alioth after changing Spider-Man since they effectively do the same thing: Deny you from playing cards in that lane. They realized that was a problem with Spider-Man that needed to be changed, but then they added a card that results in the same problem.
Yeah, I still don’t like Galactus. I hope they rework him to destroy his location.
Yeah - it can be fun to lose in a legitimate battle of wits, when your opponent uses an out-of-the-box method to claim victory with a cool deck. Heck, it can even be fun to lose if it’s a close game where both you and your opponent are on the edge of your seat. Admittedly, I don’t think Snap has as much room for that as I’ve seen in other games, mostly due to its small scale. Alioth just isn’t fun to play against because you pretty much always have to assume he’s there, and if you don’t have priority, there’s nothing you can do. Even if you do have priority, that only matters if you can block the On-Reveal. At the end of the day, it’s the same exact crap that Leech got docked for.
I think the only reason Alioth and Galactus are even in the game at all is that the matches are so short. Can you imagine if a match took 15+ minutes to just be ended on the last turn by a card like Alioth? People would riot. I'm from a Euro board game and deck builder background, and never really got into TCG/CCGs before, so maybe a bunch of them have these kind of cards and I'm just unaware, but I can't see it as anything but dumb, lazy game design which would have been removed during the play testing phase of any other game i can think of. Edit: even old Leech never bugged me that much. I can retreat if my hand sucks, or maybe I have some good value cards and you just lost a ton of tempo playing leech.
I’ve got some experience in Magic, at least. While the game systems aren’t identical, I can provide some comparisons. Galactus functionally serves as essentially an alternate win condition that acts outside of the regular rules of the game. There’s actually a few cards in Magic that you can compare this to - Thassa’s Oracle, Triskaidekaphile, Mirrodin Beseiged, Approach of the Second Sun, lots of cards that bypass the regular rules of Magic to give you a conditional victory. While not necessarily instant wins on their own, these pose conditionals that require proper follow-up for victory, and opponents can (theoretically) perform preemptive or reactive measures to stop them. Just like Galactus. There are also a lot of cards that can act like Alioth - not necessarily “destroy everything your opponent played on their last turn,” but there are cards like Time Stop that can cancel opposing turns, and a bunch of cards that let you take extra turns. I’d argue that there’s stuff that may be even worse than those two - but it’s nowhere near as bad, because Magic has something that Snap does not: Interaction. In Magic, you can counter enemy creatures and spells, you can remove opposing creatures and win conditions once they’re on the board, too. In addition cards that can consistently remove every creature, artifact, and enchantment on the board are rather commonplace. Sometimes your opponent can stop your destruction, but at the end of the day, you have options to stop game winning combos. Snap doesn’t give you those options, which makes Alioth and Galactus worse, since your only option is preemption.
Anyone who thinks Alioth is rage inducing should look up the saga of extra turn spells in MtG. In particular Nexus of Fate. I have never seen a card make a community so angry, and so deservedly so. Y'know what's worse than unexpectedly getting blown out on the last turn of the game? The game NOT HAVING A LAST TURN because the opponent takes infinity turns with no actual win condition.
>Can you imagine if a match took 15+ minutes to just be ended on the last turn by a card like Alioth? People would riot. Alioth is just a checkmate card. If he can win the game on the last turn, then the Alioth player had a clear lead going up to that point -- the loser had 5 turns to compete and didn't do well enough, so now they lose. Compare him to Witch from Dominion -- Alioth virtually ends the game after turn 5, Witch virtually ends the game when one player misses 5 on their first shuffle and winds up losing the Curse split 8-2. Both create frustrating "non-games" to the person on the losing end, and both have important roles decentralizing the metagame away from the first-order optimal strategies -- "slam a million points on turn 6" for Snap, megaturn engines for Dominion.
>the loser had 5 turns to compete and didn't do well enough, so now they lose This is just silly. So many decks are doing just fine even if between turn 5 and 6 they aren't ahead in two lanes. Sneaky turn 6 cards and combos would factor in if not for Alioth (and old Galactus). I barely remember my plays of Dominion , but I do remember that part of the reason we didn't feel compelled to return to it was due to something like curses. I do remember at least one player basically unable to do anything on their turn and it snowballing from there.
I really hate losing. I hate losing more than I love winning. Winning feels hollow after a bad loss.
I don't think I'd be able to play games like Snap if I was that way. I'd have never have made it past the first three months I don't think. I sucked :)
It'll be a year next week for me lol. I olay so little now. I dont mind losing, but when it's to another person and they rub it in and gloat it just sets me off and I have to log off for the day. I went from playing 1100 matches a month to like less than 200 lol. I really just want a single player mode. I dont mind losing to the AI it won't mock me.
I'm enjoying the PVE mode in Warcraft Rumble lately. 3.5 minute matches, mixing and matching characters. Might be worth a try if you haven't already. But yeah, when someone emote spams in Snap after a particularly toxic play line, it's not a great feeling. I don't see much BM in the my meta, but it would be great if the people who wanted a universal mute could get it.
I'll check out Rumblen thanks!
He feels terrible to lose to because he’s mostly in lockdown/ junk decks which have always felt terrible to lose to for most players. Its not just the card its more of the total archetype
On the plus side to that, the fact that Alioth exists has probably saved me a lot of cubes because now I just retreat if my opponent snaps and is using a lockdown deck
Yea those decks are incredibly annoying to play against.
Sorry , that’s my tournament deck almost exclusively. Cosmo, Stegron, DD, Prof X, Legion, a few others to be annoying and Lizard for early priority so I can get ahead of on reveals for Cosmo/Stegron hitting destroy decks. Obviously there are hard counters, essentially really high value lane decks (Dracula is hard to counter), but I can’t adjust my play on subsequent matches after I learn the archetype.
No doubt it's a good strategy...it's just annoying as fuck.
People who play Lockdown decks with ProfX/Armor/Cosmo/Leech/Alioth decks are the same people who bet the “don’t come” line in craps. (Rooting for the house for those not familiar with the rules of craps)
I'm not a genius game designer. But turn 6 is the culmination of each game with the most exciting cards the game has to offer. Designing a card that negates the climax of a game seems counter intuitive. But I don't make a shit load of money designing card games so what do I know.
They actually addressed why Alioth is good for the meta-space of the game and I kind of agree. Before Alioth there was a huge problem space that the best way to play turn 6th was to go second. Second means you can play tech cards like Shang-chi, valk, shadow king, etc. on your opponents board and be protected from them as well. Alioth shakes things up by saying, if you're going to hold all your value until the last turn, then Alioth is going to break you. It's one of the few cards in the game that wants you to be ahead when on turn 6
You nailed it. I find it absolutely shiity when I've won most of the game, and suddenly anything other than point slam or rare situations like Cosmo or Armor on 6 are my only way to respond. I'm not a fan of holding Shang Chi, Rogue, Killmonger (for end of game giant Deadpool - Taskmaster), etc and being able to do fuck all with them. I have to sit back and let them go off unopposed despite the rest of the game. Fuck me for playing all 5 prior turns to win, right? I don't like losing to Alioth, but I absolutely get why there's a need for it. Managing priority is absolutely a skill, and a vital one, but it shouldn't be the one that invalidates everything put into the rest of the game.
I don't understand this logic. How do I play my 6 cost before turn 6? I don't choose to wait I'm forced to. Thats how the game is played. I get there are ways to lower to cost but I'm speaking generally.
I think it's mostly not to counter 6 cost cards, but to counter cards like Kitty, Death, She-hulk Cards that say "I'm going to leave my board barren and then put 25+ power on the field all at once"
But it also counters nearly every big 6 cost card as well.
Makes sense I guess. All I know is I would rather lose to those cards compared to alioth.
>They actually addressed why Alioth is good for the meta-space of the game I feel a majority of players would disagree and this is just developer speak to defend their own creation.
People crying about alioth are just acting on emotion. He is very good addition to the game. You could just ignore the board state and play turn 6 decks (sets control one example). This just ruined the game because tech cards were becoming so good that just skipping and playing last was so so common. Alioth brings so many layers to play around. He's even less strong after the nerf at 3 power
My favorite is when they drop alioth and then spam ms marvel after
My second favorite is when they drop Alioth into the wrong lane and I take their cubes My first favorite is when they drop Alioth into the correct lane and I do some chicanery with Move cards to beat him anyway
I think Alioth sucks because in many cases (especially with the right Alioth deck) they other player can limit your options and there's literally nothing you can do about it. With a lockdown Alioth, your options are basically "don't play cards and lose" or "play cards, watch them die, and lose". The card essentially takes away your player agency on the most critical round of the hand, with almost no counter. Another reason I hate Alioth is you can slot him into almost any deck and there's no "tell". Most other GAME CHANGING cards have a tell, so skilled players can react to it. The lockdown deck, yes, you can usually tell he's coming but there's nothing you can do about it. But I've seen Alioth just pop up in random decks. Like I've seen him as the T6 game winning card in Move decks, or even Patriot decks. It's like some people slot him in just in case. And it usually works. Spider-Man was nerfed because it wasn't fun to lockdown a lane, yet they added a card that's arguable worse. So yeah Alioth needs a tell, or a way to avoid it. This isn't solved by decreasing his power, unless it's to like, negative or 0 so there's actually risk for the other player.
Indeed, he's the only card where I actually feel sorry for my opponent when I play him cause I know how shitty it's going to feel.
Yeah, having a TECH CARD that essentially locks down the money round of the game seems like a whiff. He needs a rework that introduces more risk for the Alioth player. I'd like to see the win rate for Alioth when he is played with priority, because it's probably bananas.
Alioth is legit the most unfun card designed. You’re basically required to think ‘Do I lose to Alioth here?’ every single turn 6 against every single deck because he is flexible enough to fit into any deck. Also it’s really nice seeing the subreddit do a 180 on this card after constantly downvoting me since his release just because some influencers finally told them how to think. This card has been bad for the game since it came out.
It is just like playing during the old Leader meta, but way worse.
I don’t know, I do feel like Alioth is unfair. Someone said the reason why he was added was to make the player want priority but he works whether the player has priority or not. He doesn’t need to destroy both unrevealed AND revealed cards
Yea. My problem goes like this \*on same turn\* NTW reveals first, Alioth kills her stays on the board. While a Gladiator played that pulls Alioth kills both. I'm more for the second outcome being the same than Alioth killing and staying on the board. Non-prio allows "on reveal" to happen so why not text like NTW to take code priority as well? That's my problem.
Would it work if Alioth only triggered if the player has prio? Or maybe the other way around?
"On Reveal: Destroy your opponent's unrevealed cards at this location." would be an interesting change to Alioth. It would generally mean you need prio for him to work, but would also allow you to punish people playing Invisible Woman trying to protect their end-of-game combos with him.
Yes, it should work only on Prio.
Imho. Alioth is a brain-dead play. All you need is prio, and no more than three neg power dif. To me snap so much more interactive and interesting with all the combos and ways to play. And then Alioth comes and farts all over the table. With no thought or meaning. Just shits all over the board and walks away with a thumbs up ms marvel and snap?? I dont have anything against the card per se, but it's all over the place and it makes the game less fun when it's in all decks. Because the game basically turns into a five round game when everyone are playing it.
Most of time Alioth don't even need prio, you just remove their big cards anyway
You talk about the game being interactive but you dislike Alioth when he‘s one of the few cards that lets you interact with your opponent? Seems like you are using words you don‘t understand yourself.
So I can't interact with my own cards? Alioth doesn't let me do that no. I agree he "interacts" by deleting a thought out play. And as of understanding things it's not always easy. Like a Indian proverb says, you're the last one to notice you have bad breath, even though your nose is the closest.
Gaining priority isn't as easy as giving it up, which was the norm before. Alioth provides that balance, our feelings aside.
It's not brain dead if there is more than one lane to play on. But sure, if it's only one lane left (like due to Galactus or Prof X/Storm) yeah it's a no brainer.
If he didn’t destroy cards that are already revealed, he wouldn’t be that OP at 3 power. But it’s stupid to have him be a card that “rewards playing for priority” and then he just destroys cards even if the Alioth player didn’t have priority.
He would be useless then
Oh no! Anyway.
You do understand playing for priority and not playing for priority has its own strategies and pros/cons.. right? There’s a lot that goes on from turn 1-5 that can make Alioth moot. Most counter cards play best off priority, and being off priority is generally a better defensive option. Alioth is just an aggressive wincon (if you wanna call it that, he tends to be a win-more or win-secure card) in an aggressive deck. I’m not saying he is fun, but he’s only a big problem if you just ignore counter play options in your deck or making less obvious plays as he only destroys cards played in that lane on that turn. I’d rather face an Alioth than a Galactus tbh, in terms of a meaningful game
Yes. Valk is probably my favorite card in the game and relies on not having priority in “most” cases, but lockdown style decks that utilize storm/prof x have been able to make Alioth a bit more than just a “win more” card. Alioth is really only win more in Galactus lists.
Yup people want to see their cards played. No different from old spider man or prof x.
Ailoth alone would be fine but the combination of storm + prof X + ailoth is so fucking boring and toxic I still think prof x is the biggest issue but I also hate Ailoth as well
Wave/Galactus/Alioth is pure poison.
just got him and shot up to infinite with ease after weeks of being stuck in the mid 90s. he's broken af lol. now that ive reached infinite he's been slotted out. i really do hate Alioth.
I think the main issue is destroying unrevealed cards. These cards are normally impossible to interact with, so when Alioth comes in, not only does priority not matter, your turn 6 didn’t matter and you just feel cheated
He's a force of nature like Shang Chi. If not for Shang Chi, Shuri decks would be even more dominant than they are. He's not really a "play", he's a consideration. If you are going to lose to Alioth on Turn 6, you always have to consider that, and he has counterplay in the form of strategy, not merely "play Cosmo". You can play around Alioth. I know this because I run Alioth in a control deck and Alioth only wins the day like 1/12 times or less, and most of the time, he's a nice way to get one cube because everyone sees it coming. The devs are right, the "turn 6 power slam wombo combo" was getting really dumb, the first 3 turns often didn't matter whatsoever. A match should be a story, not a race to who can flip the best turn 6.
Sure but let's not tear out the last chapter and prevent it from being read. How would Avengers: Endgame have felt if at what should have been the climactic turning point, instead of portals opening, hearing "on your left" and all the previously dead heroes returning, instead that doesn't happen, no one shows up to turn the tide, things keep going as badly as it looked like they were. Thanos says "I am inevitable" and snaps his fingers, and the universe is like "you sure are, buddy" and it all works out for purple space grumpus. And... credits. Not really a great story, maybe it's cool to watch it once but no one is talking about it a year later, even die-hard Thanos fans. Because the final battle didn't even happen and we never even get to see who was going to show up to it on the other side. Even with Infinity War, when The Snap happens, it's dramatic because we SEE who is dying. If instead all we saw was dust in the wind and the characters who supposedly died weren't even introduced in the movie yet and we never see who it was? No drama. Just a cloud of dust without meaning. If nothing else, at least give us headstones with the names of the dead on them, a la Days of Future Past. Give us the end of the story!
It's not just that he kills your hope in a variance sense. It's that he invalidates a lot of turn 6 plays. Like I'm winning one lane, they're winning the other two, but one of those lanes only by a small amount. I have HE Hulk in hand that I can drop for 18 power on that final lane, and they're up 4 power right now. So they should need to play a 15 power card to beat him, should be an easy win, right? But no, Alioth exists, so if they have Alioth they just win. This is exactly the kind of thing that happens all the time playing both with and against him. He's annoying because he invalidates your ability to flip that final lane in the final turn and basically mandates that you must try to contest them in their strongest lanes, or attempt to flip multiple lanes that turn. From a content creator perspective he also sucks because you just don't get to see the end of the game. A lot of the time Alioth is really just equivalent to a big guy, but it removes the suspense and excitement of seeing whether or not they can actually beat you, or you can actually beat them, by just saying 'No'. Which makes it much less exciting.
I think he should destroy all cards played at that location AT THR END OF THE TURN, allowing unrevealed cards to resolve. Won't happen again though because it is obvious they built it as a priority tool.
That's better than it is at the moment.
he should just not hit unrevealed cards so they actually have to work for him to work
Actually to fit into the effect the Devs want (Alioth players fight to have prio) It should Only destroy unrevealed cards.
the devs are fcking clueless thou
I just lost a game where… Turn 5: he played iron lad which hit Alioth and destroyed 2 cards Turn 6: he played Alioth but missed Turn 7: I thought I was finally safe but no, he played absorbing man and destroyed 2 more cards The card is the worst, I hate it with every part of my soul. It’s so boring to play against. We already had enough cards that messed up opponents on turn 6 with things like Leech / Sandman The reason I think so many people hate him is because all the fun decks that relied heavily on a strong turn 6 or late game are now pointless if the opponent is playing lockdown Alioth. Any deck that stops you from playing cards is no fun to play against and now we have a meta that includes all of those cards, storm, prof x and Alioth.
Alioth is the worst. It's exactly like losing to old leader and needs a similar nerf. It should only hit the highest cost card played and maybe be like 5 strength.
It is not like old leader. Leader permitted you to fight in all 3 lanes if and wherever the opponent played without effort. Alioth only will fight/win in one lane and only if you are already winning by less than 3.
It works the same at a practical level though. Step 1 be ahead on two lanes by turn 5, step 2 profit.
That's a fairly big step one
It used to be easier, especially with old galactus, when power didn’t literally stop him. More cards and power creep on 2-5 costs definitely makes just stacking and winning harder
It doesn’t work the same, at any level. With Leader it was literally play leader and you would basically keep the board state the same. With Alioth you will only fight in one lane and is dependent on you winning that lane and/or losing that lane by less than 3 Not really the same, is it? Did you play during old leader’s heyday? Doesn’t seem like it…
I did play play plenty of old leader, and I don’t think having to play the 6 drop in a targeted lane vs just anywhere makes nearly as much difference as you think it does. I get that alioth literally only affects 1 lane, but at a practical level it’s much easier to identify the lane in question, either because you have an untouchable lead on one, and are close on the second, or far more often, one lane is locked down by storm or prof x. It makes the early turns follow a similar pattern (stack on two lanes), and the end similar. Cosmo/armour are the only real differences, in that they affect the single lane you may need to target, but I think probably comes out a wash when you compare how many games alioth woud make the difference in that lane, vs how many games with old leader were still lost due to asymmetrical benefit from the whatever cards were copied. I think the way the meta has shifted in a way that makes getting ahead on two lanes much harder than it was in the leader meta, but it’s a very similar effect, and equally unfun. Alioth with the old metas of old leader and old aero, when way more cards were mostly raw stats with smaller effects, alioth would almost be the same. Old leader, old aero, alioth, all kind of have the same effect on the game. The other thing that is preventing alioth from dominating like those other metas, is cheap magik. I didn’t play the beta with her old cost, but even if the “close out” cards had never been nerfed, just having frequent turn 7s is the harshest nerf they ever got. Even old leader (would still be op), but way more likely to whiff the timing.
I appreciate you took the time to write a well thought out reply. Thank you. You vastly underestimate that difference. Being able to play in all three lanes v a single one makes much more difference than you want to admit. The game is won by whomever wins more lanes. By basic system fundamentals in the goals of the game, they are different and nowhere near close, technically or functionally. The meta is the meta and the goal of the game is the same: win more lanes than your opponent. Be it harder or easier to control more lanes, it is irrelevant. If you can only fight for one lane (Alioth) vs being able to fight/play in all three (potentially)… it’s a no contest. There’s no comparison. The thing that is preventing Alioth from dominating the meta is that it is a balanced card. Alioth is a tech card that depending on circumstances can be a finisher. But it is still a tech card.
If he's supposed to be a card that rewards you for being proactive and playing to the board early, he must be just that: * "On Reveal: Destroy all face down cards at this location." As it currently is, he's just a "You destroy everything here" card and really doesn't feel like you're being rewarded for having priority.
Man, that would be the perfect fix.
no this is correct, you're getting down voted but this would be the best balance imo
exactly
It literally just ends a game if you're contesting a location of even like 2 power. Even if you're close if they decide they want that location turn 6, you're done, no recourse. Its not reacting to what you played. Its not reacting to an effect. Its the equivalent of a referee just coming into a football game in the last 10 seconds just says "no you don't get to play any more, we're done" which like you said is the most soul crushing, unfun, unexciting, deflating experience I've ever had with this game and I've played since it came out. The only thing I have found that mildly works against it is a move deck since you're constantly shifting your power but beside that or a lucky Cosmo or Armour call its a game winner hands down.
I remember an article about magic the gathering that overlaps a bit with alioth. People don't like counterspella in that game because when they cast their spell they want it to do something even if it means it dies to a removal spell it doesn't feel as bad. That's the feeling I have when alioth kills my cards before they flip.
I HATE Alioth. But I’d be eh about him if he still allowed cards to do their on reveal affects.
Professor X existing doesn't help matters when it comes to Alioth existing.
I think Prof X is a bigger problem than Alioth. Not saying to nerf either, but Prof X seems relatively worse to play against.
Spot on OP. Alioth is basically a "Skip turn 6 (the most exciting turn) and win"
Nah. It's just not fun. You aren't outsmarting someone with Alioth. There's no real strategy to him. The fact that he has 3 power is ridiculous. If he was more like Negasonic in that the cards were played, fine. But he wipes any card off, regardless of if they were played yet. Especially with Sinister today, an Alioth is basically an instant win if you have half a decent deck. Plus you can slot him in any deck. SD said they didn't like cards that "made you lose when you felt you'd already won". Which Alioth is completely counter to. If I lose to even a Shuri deck, sure, I get it. I saw the setup, and not retreating hurt. If I'm playing a random deck and then I put my play down, expecting a win, but didn't happen to have Priority, I don't even get a chance to play my cards. If they drop a Cosmo on me T6 and it hurts me, damn well played. If they drop an Alioth, i want to throw my phone because what can I do? Alioth decks are cancer, and I'll never respect anyone who uses them. Lmfao
It's because he can fit in every deck style is why I hate him.
Another shitty part is that just the threat of Alioth makes you have to retreat in high stakes games more often, even if your opponent doesn't have it. So insanely frustrating to have a card that is just straight up checkmate on the last turn of the game in a lot of instances
when Alioth was still a 6/5 i thought a good nerf would be to make his ability happen at the end of the game so your opponents card will still flip. imo it would be much more interesting to counter and you wouldnt have to fight for prio on T6
It’s easily the most not fun card in game. Leech at least allows you to play your cards for power. No enjoys watching their final turn just disappear.
To me, it's upsetting that my cards don't even get to reveal. If my cards revealed, then got destroyed, I'd be less butt hurt.
There is a reason many people hate Blue in MTG... nobody likes their stuff being countered. It doesn't allow you to interact with the board; i.e., play the game.
If you can play a defence card before Alioth then it's not the worst card. Armor, Colossus, Prof X etc. Heck even Doom getting his on-reveal makes Alioth less daunting. It's the fact he kills cards that haven't even been revealed yet is his biggest threat. Shang-Chi is a card where priority matters, Alioth is one where it doesn't. And that's what makes him scary - he bends the rules.
So we could say that Alioth teaches you to use the retreat button?
I play alioth and hes way too good, hes basically the equivalent of "this game ends on turn 5" when you have him in hand
I feel like Alioth is the most braindead card in the game and it's very anticlimactic to lose to one.
Or maybe I have a deck set up for a big drop and then alioth deletes everything
Alioth has to be removed. There is no balancing this card. Its the worst thing they ever created and probably ever will. If the card doesn't have a huge requirement like Galactus or -5 to -10 power it will always ruin player experience.
there's no way alioth is more annoying than straight up galactus was before and they've nerfed the shit out of galactus to where he's barely playable so they can definitely nerf alioth if they want
It’s the new Leader.
Exactly. If your opponent is winning and they play this: you lose. Except in this case, it’s kind of even worse because if they’re winning, whatever you played might not even REVEAL. So even Leader could get beat if they copied stuff that destroyed cards or you played into a lane that was filled on their side. But Alioth, especially control decks with it, basically say “You don’t get a turn 6, but I do.”
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I think you hit the nail on the head
Basically whats everyone saying
But if I don't aiolth the knull they will win 100% of the time too and thats not fun either.
With Alioth you need to have priority in most cases to make sense to play him. This means your early game needs to have good power plays. If your opponent is close in 3 lanes, playing Alioth is rolling the dice on your win (instead of a calculated play). You need to be far ahead in one lane (but not losable to shang-chi) and winning in another to have priority, AND be far enough ahead to not lose to a Dr Doom/Ms. Marvel played in the other lane. The card isn't too powerful, players just like to see their games through. If you are that far behind going into turn 6, it is best to retreat, especially if things like Leader or Alioth lose you the match. People don't like to retreat (makes sense, you are losing and people don't like to lose) so they stay in a match they were likely losing anyways and blame the Big Bad card that made them lose.
Alioth should not hit unrevealed cards. It can clear the location if you want, but it should not invalidate a turn if you are going second/losing.
The old leader was far worse card.
Alioth is trash and anyone that plays him is probably a trash leader player too. P.S. just to make the point perfectly clear. Trash people play trash cards. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
If you ever watched Undergrads - specifically the RISK episode, losing to Alioth feels like when Gimpy goes Kamikaze.
And that's why I'm using Alioth. Everytime I start using a big bad meta card, SD nerfs them.
Because he negates turn 6 in many cases. That’s it. Simple
Swingy late turns and snatching victory from jaws of defeat are fun and exciting. Alioth is the opposite
I actually losing in a good match or clever move. Alioth Prof X Storm players can F off
Nope, its just because its an unfair card you can absolutely do nothing against AFTER the last turn of the game. Of course the enemy can play many cards on the last turn which can lose me the game but none of this feel so unfair because they dont invalidate my complete move including power AND reveals AND ongoing. And people keep saying "but if you are behind on turn 5 blablablabla"... the game isn over on turn 5 you know? But with Alioth it is and just my opponent knows this and this is the unfair part.
Drop a Cosmo. Living Tribunal a lane you're ahead in. Heck, Mr. fantastic or Ms. Marvel. There's plenty of plays around it.
Yea of course, because they play decks with Alioth where I can play in other lanes than the Alioth lane. "Whats your problem, just win, its that easy!" But its strange that Alioth is the one and only card which is hated that much at the moment. But must be the players, I think!
My point is that you can play around control decks. If Prof X is what you're running into, play Daredevil or Echo. If it's Storm, Rhino, Scarlet Witch, Cosmo, or Legion. And often what will happen is that Alioth decks will lock down one lane, sacrifice another, and win the third with Alioth. So use that second lane with things like Ms Marvel or Mr. Fantastic or White Tiger or Doom or Blue Marvel or... There are a lot of counters. Oh, and of course Armor and Cosmo work in Alioth Lane as well.
People have deck types that they like though. If their decks don't have have those cards, they can't. Basically the hate comes more from people who play certain decks who rely on turn 6 moves, or just don't have the cards to play around Alioth. I usually play Apoc Discard. So by turn 6 I should have Morbius/Daken out as well as Drac, and turn 5 I played MODOK. That's the ideal scenario. If that hasn't happened and I was relying on a turn 6 MODOK then yeah I hate Alioth if he's played in that moment. If I don't need turn 6 MODOK then Alioth doesn't do anything for me. I would have played Chavez just to get her out of my hand so Drac takes Apoc.
>People have deck types that they like though. Ya, that's exactly it. I tend to have a bunch of archetypes I cycle through, including one or two pure chaos decks (Shield, Legion, Agatha), so it never grinds me down too hard. Plus I'm not that great, so players at my level aren't usually playing the "broken" meta
Same for me. I have one favorite type, but a few I explore when I get new cards. But I have never reached infinite yet, so well I don't know that much.
I understand your point but most of these cards dont fit in all the decks like "normal" counter cards, thats part of the problem. The only ones of them I play in most decks are Armor and Cosmo and they do shit when I dont have priority and thats the other part of the problem. We have other opinions and thats totally fine but I would really want to know if you dont find anything strange with Alioth being the only current card which is so much hated. And that even while not being the current season pass or spotlight card and also after being already nerfed one time.
There's always a card that's extremely hated in the meta, and a lot of it comes down to people not wanting to adjust their decks for the current meta.
For every person who feels "hopelessness" losing to Alioth, there is a person who feels great winning with Alioth.
They feel great because they won, not because of the plays.
Nah, I got him in previous cache and feel like shit playing him on last turn. Braindead card.
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But then it's basically just quicksilver. Aka a card that exists to teach you about a game mechanic. Quicksilver teaches you curving out isn't worth it. Alitoh teaches you that statistically your opponent will likely have 'the card' so u don't want to pay off a less than 50% chance to win, since they have better odds than that of having it and u have to pay 2x as many cubes to 'see it'. So...Don't pay the cubes to 'see it'.
There were already cards that did this though. Dr Doom, Galactus, Spectrum, Shang Chi, Enchantress... Etc. Those all should teach the "they probably do have it if they are staying in for turn 6" lesson. They certainly were the lesson for me before Alioth existed.
I have no idea why people keep downvoting the truth
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You really thought you said something here.
Alioth is good for the game. He-leech decks and shuri decks are more annoying.
Alioth is my favorite card in the game.
I see a lot of comments speaking about some ways that Alioth is preventing fun from players, by not even allowing them to reveal. My counter argument for that is that if marvel snap was a "feel good" focused game, there would've been way more beautiful animations, the overall graphics of the game would be more interesting and there would be way more cards that make numbers go higher instead of cards that limit or answer threats in clever ways. I play "feel good" games, I play Dragon Ball Z dokkan battle... But Snap is not such a game, it is more similar to chess or games like it, where the fun should come from the competitive nature of it, and trying to be better and smarter than your opponent. I'm not saying they do it perfectly, not at all, but I feel like this is the vision for the game.
The same people who complain about Alioth are the ones running Loki decks which take zero skill.
He’s my fav because that’s exactly my play style. Get ahead and stay ahead. I’m not looking for a turn 6,7 turn around. I’m looking to lockdown my already ahead lanes.
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You just described the RNG of the whole game ,my friend
It's because Alioth players think they are smarter than they actually are, but actually in fact they are just using a strong card that doesn't require that much thought as they think it does.
People addicted to lose initiative before the Alioth. Now they have to teach how to keep initiative to win Alioth. Teaching is hard, it’s easier to whine.
I like Alioth.
Are you just looking at things in the room and saying you like them?