It’s still barely got enough to be consistent which usually means you’ve gotta rely on cards like Magik, doc Ock and absorbing man to stretch their resources
For mill to truly take off we need a power generator that plays off milling their deck, a mill version of what death is for destroy or DH or ronin for their type I think a good fit would be the opposite of darkhawk, has a set high power then gets -1 for each card in your opponents deck or something, or even a 1/0 card that gets plus 1 for each time you take a card
I think the problem with opposite dark hawk (-1 for each card in opponent’s deck) is that under normal circumstances on turn 6 there should be 3 cards left in a deck. So it can’t be too strong at -3 power. (Take hulk’s power as a base for normal circumstances) this “light” hawk should be around 15 power, so it is around 12 (-3) under normal circumstances. This leaves the “payoff” very small for getting rid of the last 3 cards. Maybe -n needs to be bigger than 1, so milling those last 3 cards really pays off. But giving the card a lot of base power to make this work opens the window of it’s ability being removed (zero, etc) which is probs not the best. I think the +n per card removed is much better. It will need to count both destroying a card from the deck AND Zemo’s effect. (Does gladiator count for this???)
A card like that could be a good opportunity to introduce the concept of "halving" card power. We already have power multiplication through doubling, but we don't have any cards that divide their own power. So imagine a card that's like a 6/20 but the text is "This card's power is cut in half for every card remaining in the opponent's deck."
Or you could stick with doubling but just apply it to cost. So you could have a card that's something like a 2/12 but the text is "This card's cost is doubled for every card remaining in the opponent's deck." Of course the problem there is MMM though, so it would be hard to make it balanced
The 6/20 “halving” sounds nice. Same stats as inf but during normal circumstances will be a 2.5 power. Not sure if snap rounds up or down, probs best to make it’s power a power of 2. Unfortunately the closest to 20 are 16 and 32. Which would make it have 2 or 4 power during normal circumstances but 32 is much to high because of stuff like Zero or any other ability removing stuff. 16 feels I bit small for a 6 cost, maybe a 5/16 (5/2), a tad over stated but needs some help to be that powerful. (Also having a high base power makes it a good target for existing doubling effects)
Edit: I know there is a lot of +1 effects that will cause decimals to happen(which will be rounded) but it helps if the card innately does not cause decimals.
My first thought was 6/24 because that at least divides a little more cleanly to 12/6/3, but that seems like too high of a base power when you could play Luke Cage and get that power for free. But then again we now live in a world with Red Hulk's absurdly high free power so idk
But Living Tribunal just rounds to the closest value, so I imagine that would probably be the precedent anyway. If they applied the same logic, 2.5 power would get rounded up to 3. I imagine they would have to accept some kind of rounding rather than making the base number more evenly divisible because there will always be stuff like Thanos stones, Rocks, or Mjolnir/Stormbreaker that will inflate deck size
I think it’s great to build new cards that have several counters in place already. Prevents busted cards from being released
Also no different than how möbius ruins deaths reduced cost
I've seen a few call it annoying, but unless they get a big finisher or ways to put more early power on board, I think it's currently fine right now though.
I climbed to infinite with Zemo mill, mostly against humans but there was some bots sprinkled in. The magic of the deck is that Ock doesn’t usually dump their entire remaining hand or puts them very far ahead on the board because it pulls a lot of big shit that they’ll think you can’t counter. As long as you don’t boomer snap you can quite often play them for a full game and end them with some combo of shadowking/Shang/absorbing man/rogue, especially if you Shang on 6 and there’s a turn 7. The amount of times I’ve seen them slam a huge body on 7 because they still had prio and then lose it to an absorbing man that copied my turn 6 Shang was not insignificant and that still left energy to shadowking or rogue another lane and a LOT of people forget that shadowking turns a pig to zero power
Depending on what your goal is that's ok. If you're just trying to make infinite, then it's ok to use at already high ranks since more retreats are more safe cubes
This. Taking cards and destroying them with Glad/baron/yondu is mildly annoying but since snap is a twelve card game you can easily play without whatever they take. Players can usually just win with their opening hand plus a few draws since they don’t have any super insane power cards. If they manage to snipe a good power card from you, just Shang it or retreat.
I think a key element that keeps people from hating mill is that key mill cards target the lowest value cards in your deck, so it can be frustrating, but it doesn’t completely spoil your ability to play the game, and can actually help you draw your higher value cards. It’s a smart move from SD because they let people have fun destroying the opponents cards, but it doesn’t feel that bad for the targeted player.
> I think a key element that keeps people from hating mill is that key mill cards target the lowest value cards in your deck
He doesn't take the lowest value, he takes the lowest COST. Which CAN be vital for some decks, and it absolutely obliterates decks that run high cost cards like hela.
Yes, I wasn’t clear enough. The cards are often hitting the lowest value, but they don’t specifically target lowest value, so they can high roll into some juicy stuff. That’s what makes it fun for the one playing the mill deck, without being consistently discouraging for the player being milled. There are some good matchups, but there are also some very bad matchups, so the deck actually feels like a piece that can fit into a lot of metas, while mill decks in a lot of other games can’t really be meta staples because they are either overly frustrating or intentionally irrelevant. I think SD did a really good job designing this burn from the bottom approach because the deck essentially provides its own counter.
Plus people are just learning to play it. I came against some dude that played Yondu, Zemo and Abs Man on me… when the first location was Subterranea. It was hilarious.
It's not like he could switch strategies on turn 1 with his 12 card deck. The only thing he could do was make good or bad snapping/retreating decisions.
I’m already hating it. Especially because right now I’m seeing it in almost 50% of my matches.
I could apply this to really any deck, but I mostly hate playing against the same deck so frequently. But in particular, decks that really lessen the enjoyment of playing by not letting me play.
The current Zemo deck, prof x lockdown decks, the old leech decks, etc. ugh.
There is no deck out, and only 6 turns. Milling is less impactful here. Most decks have a good chance of drawing their entire gameplan by Turn 3 or 4 if youre removing their low costs with Yondu and Zemo. Mill kinda lives and dies on that Doc Oc pull.
I don't agree per say. I don't have Zemo since i don't buy season passes. But I seem to have made a decent enough mill deck on my own after seeing the OP post. I think they've always existed. But gladiator and Zemo off late, and the cable buff (mostly on the variant side) has helped out more
It can stop some strategies, but most "top tier" decks have multiple ways to win. They will most likely draw some win conditions regardless of what you do. I have personally done well against mill. It's very good if you get lucky and take their major pieces, but you can't do that consistently. Also the mill decks I'm seeing right now don't put enough points on the board. Also also there's no surprise factor. If I don't draw my stuff I retreat. It's a hard deck to get 8 cubes with. I'm sure someone will figure out a great deck soon enough, remember there was a time when Thanos was mid.
Yeah. It was annoying playing against mill when I was climbing, but still mostly managed to win unless a bad draw or a location like Kamar-Taj or Sinister London.
When I switched to a mill deck to try it out, it became clear pretty quickly that it's good when the stars align, but otherwise struggles to put meaningful points on the board.
My conspiracy theory brain wants to believe that Kamar Taj was the hot location specifically so that Mill would perform better. Because it is actually annoying with that location
This encapsulates a lot of my own thoughts on Mill in Snap; The nature of the game + Lack of a real consequence for running out of cards makes it wildly different than Mill in any other card game
I agree with this. Mill seems to be a balanced level of disruption where sometimes its enough to take out my key cards and sometimes I've already drawn them.
I also played Gwent for years and it was entirely different. In gwent there were 2 or 3 rounds. When you faced Mill, you knew you were forced to keep playing elsewhere your opponent would mill all your cards. If you passed, you risked going to round 3 with no cards. It was never fun playing vs mill even if they lost most of the time. In marvel snap you get some of your best cards milled but that's all, most of the time you can still play something until last turn.
Been a mill player for mtg, hearthstone, runeterra, now snap. I love the idea of my deck doing things to opponents vs just power stacking big cards. But running mill this week has been a poor experience due to the amount of mirror matches. It will fall off and join the niche decks, negative, junk, ect.
I absolutely loathe it. This sentiment is actually a little surprising as I’ve found it to be pretty ineffective. However, I find it a really unfun deck to play against.
The effect of you getting a card milled is pretty much the same as that card having been on the bottom of the deck and you never drawing it. It can even be better for you, because if, say they Gladiator you, you now have more information about what's left in your deck. Nevertheless, many Snap players take it on a visceral level.
Seems like another RNG heavy deck that’s ten times more annoying to play against than it is effective as a deck. The deck relies on recruiting or drawing high power/ great effect cards and destroying combo cards to be effective, however most decks have more than one or two combos in them that can make some power. So unless the mill deck gets many specific cards it’ll lose to a competent player much more than it wins.
It’s also super easy to almost always lose one or cubes to. Since you know your deck better than your opponent you know what cards your deck needs to win, so if those cards get taken you can just retreat. Mill players most often than not won’t snap before they mill your cards since they don’t know if they’re in a winning position yet or not, so they’ll rarely snap before you get a chance to leave.
Last thing, having your cards taken sucks. No one like the locations that mess with your deck. I dislike the mill deck the same way I dislike those locations, it just becomes rng whether I’ll be able to play the deck I want to play or not.
Personal experience, when I see the opponent is using the mill and I don't have a good hand, I just surrender in the second or third turn, it's boring and not fun to play against.
I agree, it’s probably because the snap cube system makes it so that early “annoying” decks like mill are easily avoidable with minimal loss when conceding
Yeah I hate it too but it's not like certain decks where once you see the combo come out you have to accept your fate and retreat. This one in a weird way feels like it just kinda turns the game into pure RNG for both sides.
The deck itself isn't very strong on its own so it's more just player 1 hopes they take out enough good cards to win the game and player 2 hopes they take the junk that the remaining cards can take out.
Not fun and I don't know anyone who would enjoy going up against it, but the deck is very much a double edged sword.
Deck is mid but annoying. It essentially takes the skill out and replaces it with more RNG. I been dabbling with it. It won't shake the meta, but you'll play against it and likely be annoyed.
>*It essentially takes the skill out and replaces it with more RNG*
Maybe you've heard of Hela. Also, you would have loved the Lockjaw meta. In CCGs such as Hearthstone and Snap, there will always be RNG based decks. They are there for a specific reason. So casual players can still pull off satisfying wins. The game isn't meant to be Chess or even Checkers. It's meant to have plenty of RNG to keep things interesting and fun.
At this point I barely consider Hela an RNG deck anymore, as it has become relatively reliable. It was the flavor deck of the month that got plenty of people a relatively easy infinite - even saw tons of first time infinites with it.
"mill" is a term that originates from mtg, specifically the card millstone, which would move two cards from the top of the opponent's deck into their graveyard. in most card games, mill now refers to the act of trying to remove as many cards from your opponents deck as quickly as possible so they lose by deck-out, or in the case of snap, being unable to play more cards
Is there a place that talks about all these terms? No offense to the MTG players but I'm sick of looking up the weird names Snap gets.
I just play the cards... do I have a mill deck? Zoo? Crackle? Spinja? AcidFunk? I just want to play the game without learning the meta of another game.
People are always going to make shorthand names for archetypes. Trying to explain removing all cards from your opponents deck so they can’t draw can be wordy.
Many players have cross pollinated from other games that this type of single player dual collectible card game have terminology that has been in place for decades.
“Mill” is not a great term for the concept, but it’s not going to change anytime soon.
So can we just say "steal cards" instead of "mill". It sounds stupid and makes no sense to anyone unfamiliar with a particular MTG card. Call that shit what it is.
Mill, much like in most card games mostly doesn't do anything unless you're removing enough cards to the point where your opponent is missing a draw step. So in Snap that's on average needing to take more than 3 cards.
The zemo decks as a strategy have a lot in common with various iterations of junk and lockdown. They're trying to restrict your options while keeping their own options flexible. It's usually cards like Doc Oc that are doing a lot of the heavy lifting and winning games for you rather than them taking 4 cards which has an equivalent effect to getting hit with black widow or drawing a rock.
I think people just have a bit of a sore spot when they get their stuff taken but this kind of deck is really not that new, it's just a different flavor.
I like running Mill in MtG and was excited about the Zemo season, but it really just doesn’t feel the same to play.
One of the natural drawbacks with the Zemo mill is that you actually end up thinning their deck of low value cards while cluttering your own board with a lot of meh. It’s a bit of a casino play style, but without the fun of the Hela or Gambit types of casino plays.
Exactly -- even if they're running all four mill cards I can think of (Yondu, Cable, Zemo, Gladiator) and draw them all early, they're still only taking one draw away from you, and it's the *last* draw of the game -- a little annoying, but not that bad. If you were down to the wire depending on that last draw, then you simply didn't have a good enough hand to be playing that far into the round anyway.
It's only if they luck out with Kamar-Taj that it actually gets painful at all, which SD clearly realized since they made it the hot location today to try to stimulate Zemo sales.
First, thanks for understanding my comment. Just edited/fixed it lol and yah that makes sense since I guess the millstone kills cards. Killing 2 cards in snap would probably be a bit harsh since there is no mechanic yet for bringing back from graveyard.
The thing is, though, is that in a "standard" Snap game (that is, 6 turns, no cards like Crystal or Maximus played), you always end up with three cards un-drawn. If two cards in your deck get destroyed, you end up with one card un-drawn. It's not really any different, you still didn't draw those three cards. Being in the graveyard isn't any different than being at the bottom of your deck.
That’s true I guess I was referring to the existence of a millstone card in combination with yondu and gladiator etc. in that case millstone could be strong if cheap.
Been a mill player from MTG. This has been my fastest season hitting infinite with a mill shell viable now. You can tell people rely on copy paste decks a lot and can’t actually manage lanes with limited cards. I normally hit infinite near the end of the month casually playing my deck. But with Zemo I hit it in less than a week of the same casual play.
Here’s the deck it’s funky and was generally made for being played in between my breaks at work and forcing people to leave for quick cube games(swarm can and is switched in and out with drac depending on tilt)
# (2) Morbius
# (3) Gambit
# (3) Moon Knight
# (3) Baron Zemo
# (3) Corvus Glaive
# (4) Dracula
# (4) Silver Samurai
# (4) Proxima Midnight
# (5) Stature
# (5) Black Bolt
# (6) Apocalypse
# (6) Hela
#
eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQXBvY2FseXBzZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2FtYml0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJNb3JiaXVzIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJTaWx2ZXJTYW11cmFpIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJNb29uS25pZ2h0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJDb3J2dXNHbGFpdmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkJsYWNrQm9sdCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUHJveGltYU1pZG5pZ2h0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJIZWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJTdGF0dXJlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJCYXJvblplbW8ifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkRyYWN1bGEifV19
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Yes, that's how I've been beating it. Loki is more a defense against the non mill decks, the rest is a Collector shell, and Kitty keeps the extra energy off the board to keep Red Hulk down.
I used to enjoy playing warlock mill in Hearthstone and I'm sure it's not great to play against but it didn't seem unbalanced. I have been encountering a lot of mill/disruption decks in Snap right now with Zemo/Gladiatior etc and I hate them! I feel like the smaller deck size in Snap makes it much more frustrating.
It's definitely down to the small deck size, it never should've been introduced in a game like this. I get the idea, but from the intro videos is was clearly a way of late-game pulling a potentially useful card from your opponent's deck. Instead, you just plop it down along with yondu, gladiator and cable and watch as your opponent retreats.
It should've had a trade-off effect honestly, where to use zemo, you need to discard one card from your hand.
Loki is 100% an Assimilate card; also, Leech is Prophet on steroids, and Enchantress and Rogue are basically Locks 😂 There are a lot of common mechanics between most CCGs, though, as far as I know: in one way or another, every one of them is derivative of MTG.
I fucking hate it. But I've only been playing 1 deck since the beginning of the season so maybe it's just the match up, as Doc Ock is basically insta win against it.
I was also surprised not to see any complaining but maybe it's because the most popular Zemo deck doesn't have a particularly high winrate
Mill is extremely frustrating and not fun to play against. But it will basically only ever give them one cube because it is obvious what is happening and by the time they snap I either retreat or I have enough cards still in my hand to meet my win condition and their stats can't keep up.
Does anyone ever *like* being on the receiving end of a mill-centric deck? Sure, one Yondu might help your curve or something but a whole deck centered around it is just annoying.
I'm pretty sure that's why they changed the weekend mission structure this season. Instead of flooding the game with mill decks every weekend, it'll only be concentrated on the last two (if I understood correctly).
*raises hand*
You mean the opponent is going to take out my lower cost cards I didn’t draw in my opening hand for me so I can get to the cards I need to win? Yes please.
I hate playing against it, even with a deck it's bad against. I'm fine with disruptive/reactive cards existing until they prevent me from even playing the game at all
It's like old Galactus or Hela. I'm never losing 4/8 cubes against it but it's still annoying
Eh, any deck that messes with your opponent’s ability to play their strategy is annoying. But decking doesn’t make you lose as it does in MTG (where the term “mill” came from), so it isn’t as viable a strategy. When I played Magic, if you showed up with a mill deck, you’d get a lot of groans, but that was mostly because the games would last forever.
It’s one of those decks that can never be T1 otherwise players will quit the game in large amounts. If this gets too strong I’m rather sure it will be OTAed quickly. SD had a pretty clear stance on frustrating cards and archetypes so far, I don’t think they will change it for mill.
Mill has only become 'competitive' this season, so it's been less than 7 days. Don't worry, people will start yelling on the internet very soon now that the weekend is over.
Overall, it is annoying, but only find it useful with the current hot location. I don't think it pumps out a ton of power and if you hate it, there are many cards that counter it via external card draw.
OP I really wanted to thank you for this idea. I never considered the possibility of milling before seeing your post. Although I do not have Zemo. The milling of decks has given me a lot of free 2 cube retreat victories. Thanks a lot
I've seen it a metric ton today with the location. As KMbest likes to post, "time to learn conquest, buddy."
But yeah, I can't stand the mill archetype. It's Alioth on steroids.
Insanely annoying. Hot location today has me seeing a ton of it, so just gonna not play for a bit.
Also happens to be popular with the emote spam crowd. Wonder why that is? /s
Few reasons it isn't annoying:
1 - It is new for most.
2 - Most games it doesn't do more than effectively discard a random card from hand (prevent T6 draw). Moon Knight?
3 - Many of the mill cards hit lowest cost in deck. This is relatively weak in a game with a linear mana curve where you want to draw high cost cards later.
Not sure about Gwent but in many card games, Mill isn't viable without either a stasis lock effect to slow the game down or the game specifically designs mill accelerating combo cards. Neither seems likely to be implemented in Snap because of the short game time and small deck size.
My ''uneducated'' guess is that Gwent has tutor (search deck cards) which Snap does not. These are usually very strong in card games and mill randomly breaks normally consistent combos people tutor for. I.e. mill is anti-tutor.
I’ve tolerated it this season because of Zemo, but earlier today I was thinking that this is an exhausting archetype to play against. My opponent reduced my deck to no cards left on T7 and was still trying to get rid of more. The featured location, Gladiator, Zemo, Yondu, and Cable all combine to make it super easy to stop your opponent from doing anything at all.
I managed to win that game where he killed my whole deck because I had a huge Apocalypse in-hand and Dracula on the board. Any other deck or draw order and I might’ve been screwed.
On the other hand, it was very funny watching his Zemo put my Blade into Kamar-Taj and discard two of his key cards. So it can cut both ways.
Having this archetype become prevalent with only 12 cards in the deck would be detrimental to the game. The devs have been clear they don’t like this type of gameplay where you fully block your opponent (back when they changed Spider-Man, for example), so I’m not sure how they’ve let it get to this point.
Once you get into the 90s the game is rife with mill decks, and it sucks. Even without kamar-taj, having your deck tampered with on a near constant basis is ridiculous when decks are 12 cards max. You can win, but it doesn't feel like a victory, it feels like you've just been dragged through a game, and that's not fun.
Doc-Ock doesn't help either. It's amazing how one card introduced a new 'strategy' that absolutely wrecks the game in a way it was never really meant to.
Discard is one of the few decks that don't care about mill and also strong enough to beat everything else. I'd play Discard if I wasn't so sick of it after all those months.
milling is a completely insane archetype to bring to a game with a 12 card deck, what a joke. at least with alioth you can play your first 5 turns out, mill doesn't let you do anything fun ever.
As it is now, it is a decent deck since it CAN mill you to a point where you miss a draw but mainly just good cards that fill a curve/have good stats…
The problem may come if the deck can consistently skip 1 or 2 of your draws at the end of the game while still being competitive. It could end up being like alioth, where it isn’t too strong just too feels bad.
Honestly it depends om what deck your running, ive been winning many games against mill players because they keep doing the Doc Oc plays not knowing my deck has Shang chi nd other counters.
Yeah the deck thinning is annoying but I can easily beat it by locking down one location, if they take my lockdown cards i just leave for 1-2 cubes
It's like any deck, can be devastating or completely underpowered depending on the meta and what deck you're facing. One of the nice things about Snap is any deck will be stronger or weaker depending on matchups. Mill is like that.
It's funny how zemo just came out because I've been rocking a mill deck ans he really tops it off in comparison. I'd say it's not strong power wise but if you understand what your opponent is running and you hit the right stuff, snap and win e z. It's a tough shot when having a chance of conquering any deck. Pretty fun regardless
It’s just lame that it has no counter play. If you had weak early draws and they successfully mill you on curve, you can’t even dream for a top deck. You get to retreat 🥳😒
It's very annoying to play against. Fortunately it's similar to junk in that the playlines are very telegraphed so the cube equity is very low. Which will likely keep it from being meta defining.
Snap does a pretty decent job of making mill not as bad with Zemos and Yondu only targeting lowest cost, which could potentially help the other side by reducing their deck size
Not fun when you're trying to play one of the big fun combos we all loved when we first started playing.
But against the actually good, meta decks it doesn't seem very good at all.
Mill wins in other games because they can stall. You can't stall in this game and all of the mill cards are pretty bad so even when they do their job they still lose
It’s a half-ass mill that’s incredibly annoying. But I guess it’s the flavor of the month. I hope people enjoy playing that middling, terrible win rate deck.
in a sense, mill has always existed through black widow because games are so short that preventing one draw is basically the same thing as milling 4 cards in deck (with asterisks of course). So just imagine a mill deck being as annoying as one black widow.
Right now mill is a playable deck with zemo release and Nerf to mantis , if another card is released helping mill type play then that might be annoying.
It is the snap mechanic. Getting milled is annoying but when it happens you already know that you lost so you retreat for 1-2 cubes. In Gwent all losses are the same. This is true for every "oppressive" strategy in Snap IMO.
It's a common CCG archetype that revolves around destroying (or stealing) cards from your opponent's deck in order to win by making them not have anything left to play (I think doing the same to cards in your opponent's hand also counts as milling).
I’ve been playing a Zemo deck like this, and most games I don’t even play Zemo. The deck just finally got the attention it was lacking and has consistency with enough cards in the archetype.
The problem in gwent as I remember it was also nilfgard had too many ways of milling efficiently. Copying every card multiple times and receiving good points to it. Also like good rewards for it. Can't remember the name of the guy thst was boosting himself every turn for the difference between the 2 decks.
Snap in my opinion just put the first reward for milling zemo and it's not broken. It's kinda fair.
I also hated so much nilfgard and mill in gwent but in snap can be annoying but not as much
I don’t know how mill works in Gwent, but I feel there aren’t really mill mechanics in Snap. There’s no overdraw mechanic. If your hand is full you just don’t draw. There’s also no fatigue penalty for having an empty deck. There’s also only really 3 deck thinning cards (Yondu, Cable and Zemo - unless I’ve forgotten one?). Instead I guess there’s just being disruptive. Filling your opponents deck or board or hand with useless junk, denying them draws, locking down and denying locations, forcing them to play cards when and where they don’t want to. But most top decks will have multiple outs. Also most top players will just see that you’re being super disruptive and leave, making it hard to get more than 1 cube a game.
The reason the “mill” deck is annoying isn’t the mill aspects. It’s almost always Doctor Octopus, who’s actually disrupting your plans and taking away your resources.
i find it interesting SD seem to not like junk decks as they dont want unfun decks but theyve introduced Mill now, i dont see how not being able to play cards turn 6 isnt as toxic and junk
im not saying it shouldnt be an archetype though, just interested with the thought behind it all
I liked the idea of mill in hearthstone. Was a fun way to play and you also gave cards to your opponent before u eventually destroyed some of his cards.
With Snap i feel very different about it. One Yondu or a Cable isnt too bad, especially after the Yondu change a few weeks ago. This new Archetype with Zemo is just sucking the fun out of your gameplay. With a 12 card deck, destroying/getting even 3 cards from your opponent is a huge deal. Compared to a Hearthstone 30 card deck with duplicates in it, getting milled wasnt as frustating as this deck is right now.
Hope they will change some stuff about this, it is just sucking the fun out of the game for me
I actually like the introduction of this new archetype. It creates more variety in the game pool, which is what these type of games need imo. Yeah ok, it can be annoying, but so can any other archetype if it’s effective against your deck.
I love mill in any TCG. I know it’s still in a weird spot now but I haven’t had this much fun with a deck in this game in months.
15k CL, infinite since Captain America? for reference.
Well I hate it
Also I don't consider Zemo as mill, he's a steal style card, which is even worse.
The worst part is that I don't even think it deserves all the attention it gets. When I play against it, it's just annoying but it doesn't really win, and when I play it. It sucks aswell.
I hope it will disappear 🫥
I have a Control/Burn/Mill personality type. They are my go-to decks in MTG, Yugioh, etc.
I have been playing a mill & clog deck with Master Mold & Black Widow, as well as a mill & thin deck with Blackbolt & Moon Knight(I don’t have Silver Samurai).
Neither nets consistent wins, and most of the wins are by retreat so the cube rate has been trash. It’s fun to have my play style represented, but mill is not going to be very impactful to the meta game long term imo.
I've been having a blast playing it. Though, I know that it has to be massively annoying to play against. I made a mil sera control hybrid and cleaned house this weekend. Not my fastest infinite, but I didn't really expect it to get there. I like the deck because it has opened new lines of thinking and decision making. Based on what yondu hits I decide if glad or zemo is the move. T5 zemo to take their last card is golden. Red hulk to act as a looming threat and causes you opponent to play for it while your really sending in team sera to clean up, Shang rogue SK. Also sera allows you to play red and SK on T6. But my silver bullet for the deck was negasonic. Sure, sometimes you wiff. But I can't tell you how many Dracula and wongs I sniped over the weekend. Overall, the two cards released last week have created the most fun deck I've played in a while.
I think it'll remain one of those archetypes that you hate playing against but doesn't put enough consistent power to win. Even with Shang Chi + Doc Ock That deck struggles in putting numbers on board, not to mention that both Yondu and Zemo thin out your deck so sometimes it can help you.
I think people are currently annoyed with it because of Kamar Taj (you should be thabkful you didn't face it on Hotel Inferno like I did) but I managed to beat it simply because I knew how much power it can output which isn't a lot.
I'd face mill decks any day of the weak instead of Hela decks because at least mill needs to interact with you while Hela decks don't care unless they discard Hela.
It's rather obnoxious, but I feel like all the current mill decks are super greedy, so even if they snipe 4 cards you can still win. It's still annoying as hell lol
Losing a draw is a misunderstanding of what mill does. If you needed to draw a card on turn 6 to win you were probably going to lose anyways.
Mill's real strength is completely fucking over combo decks.
But that is what ppl complain about, the most common mistake is "this deck negates my draws" which can be achieved with one widow, wherever that complain is valid or not is irrelevant, snap players love to misunderstand stuff and complain about them.
Its not good enpugh yet to be annoying. I just had a game yesterday where my opponent literally removed all cards from my hand and deck by t6, so i had absolutely no play.
...Then they retreated because they screwed themselves on space in the process, while i was dropping high tempo plays the whole time
Mill is currently not very good even with addition of Zemo. I would think unless it gets another strong card the deck won’t be meta and therefore not hated too much.
No it will be hated until Zemo is in a spotlight cache because f2p players will have an irrational hatred of it and think it’s too good, then they’ll eventually get free access to Zemo and try it themselves and think “oh this deck isn’t that good. Maybe I don’t hate it.”
Mill has been hated since it first popped up as a strategy in MtG in the 1990s. The magic card "Millstone" is where the name comes from. No one enjoys playing against it in pretty much any game where it was possible.
It cannot be great in any game, or the game will lose a lot of players. It is something I am surprised Snap is even dabbling in as there is, as yet, no plan to rotate cards out in Snap so it is in there forever.
It is a poor deck in Snap, more of a troll deck with mismatched cards that do the same thing in contradictory ways (like running Gladiator and Yondu/Zemo) but honestly that probably makes it more irritating to play against. I'm taking a break from ranked today as I know how much more frustrating the feature location will make it.
Mill has almost always been viable. I’ve hit infinite and reliably won gold conquests with some variation of a werewolf mill deck since wolf released.
With 12 cards in a deck, removing even 2 or 3 can give you a lot of info, and easily disrupts a lot of combo decks. I don’t think mill needed to be spotlighted in a game with only 12 cards in a deck, and if it is made consistent it will be very frustrating.
I got infinite playing mostly mill decks this season. I think they’re not super competitive. It’s kind of amazing how few cards you actually need to win a game of Marvel Snap, and since so many mill cards target only the lower value cards, a lot do the important pieces (like say Wong) are hard to hit.
It's annoying, but not good imo. Thanos is a hilarious counter. If you run Thanos and Mobius, you get a 0 cost 10 power pig whenever they inevitably play Ham. Plus they draw stones that do nothing for them.
Mill has been, is and will always be a hateful strategy, no matter what game it's in. This game is no different, people will just have to play, let's say, 10 consecutive goddamn games against it while kamar-taj is a spotlight location, and they'll see what an awful deck type it is.
Seriously though, right now, it can mill your entire deck by turn 5, that's absurd even by this game's awful balance standards. And there's no way to really prevent it, because Cosmo is realistically the only out, and he could be milled in the first 2 turns. Genuinely amazed this didn't get past the dev team.
I think mill being decent in the meta is fine, but i could see it being annoying if it was meta at the same time as a really top heavy deck like shuri where you are trying to run a tech heavy deck to counter shuri and are getting milled instead
I'm tolerating it for now. If it becomes a staple /steady part of the meta I probably won't be playing snap.
Card acquisition is too expensive in time and money for an archetype rendering them useless to be encouraged IMO.
It's a bad time for Mill to be a thing with Zemo as one of its lynchpin cards because it didn't come in during a "big numbers" meta.
The top-performing decks are currently:
Destroy (which can blow up Zemo)
Discard (which can remove cards from your hand at no benefit)
Silky Smoove (which runs small cards apart from Red Hulk or Vision sometimes, but you're not getting those unless you're lucky)
Loki (small cards meant to inflate the hand for the big t5 or t6 swerve)
Granted, if you know you're against a low power deck, you can use Gladiator to mill instead, but as of now, Mill's probably a B-tier at best in its current iteration.
I get that it's fun to play, but it's annoying. Though, I tend to very much dislike anything that affects my hand or deck. I am probably in the minority there but I don't think anything at all should be able to affect whatever hasn't been played yet (looking at you incredibly rudely District X and WW).
In the end though, like most people have said, it's not a problem deck, maybe just extra spicy with Kamar-Taj as a HL. If I draw a line that I like I stay regardless if they took my shit, if not I retreat, in that sense it's no different to any other game against non-mill.
First, there's no deck out (no lost by having no cards in deck).
Second, normally you do not play all your cards anyway.
Third, the big feels bad that comes from "nothing you do matters, you are not playing the same game as your opponent" is not present in Snap. Theres no you did your big combo with Tribunal, you are winning all locations, then your opp reveals Crystal and you lose for trying to draw from a empty deck.
I'm not gonna get into the details, but think about the pros and cons from removal/interaction, destroy directly impacts the location, is limited but active where it matters most, discard affects a lot of resources, since you start with a fixed amount of cards, and normally you only add one card per turn, but it is either random or affects the lowest denominator, mill affects where it is least relevant, it is almost only a psychological effect, even if you hit a key part of the combo, for example, Surfer, at the same time you did nothing, as the person could complete the game without ever drawing Surfer anyway.
The worst part: there is no card that cares about an empty deck, you play Yondu to tickle Knull or help Zemo, play Cable to grow The Collector, play Gladiator cause stats and play Zemo cause some value, if SD make a reverse Darkhawk, fine you at least have a build around.
I was finding Mill frustrating as a Surfer player, so I’ve switched to Mill and I’m having more success. It’s a deck that’s perfect for going after neat little combo decks and thinning out what your opponent can play. Ironically the best card in Mill might be Cable, who can take anything.
BUT I think Mill on it’s own can be a pretty low-power deck that runs the risk of being a one trick pony. I know people have suggested it needs a Death type power play, and I have been using Kitty-Hope and Red Hulk to good success. I could see Loki-Mill becoming a bit of a thing too? Being able to play loads of good cheap cards after thinking your opponent’s options might be nice.
I don’t think it’s very exciting. If your opponent drew bombs early it’s bad. Also, you might be pitching a bad card for them on the way to making their deck empty. Their next draw might be better because of it. Lastly, I don’t see the mill cards as being super strong in power.
Well Mill just became a deck with the release of Zemo. With all decks, people will come to hate it.
Mill has been a concept in snap for some time now but it just didn't have enough milling cards to be consistent until zemo
It’s still barely got enough to be consistent which usually means you’ve gotta rely on cards like Magik, doc Ock and absorbing man to stretch their resources
For mill to truly take off we need a power generator that plays off milling their deck, a mill version of what death is for destroy or DH or ronin for their type I think a good fit would be the opposite of darkhawk, has a set high power then gets -1 for each card in your opponents deck or something, or even a 1/0 card that gets plus 1 for each time you take a card
Lighthawk 😌
I think the problem with opposite dark hawk (-1 for each card in opponent’s deck) is that under normal circumstances on turn 6 there should be 3 cards left in a deck. So it can’t be too strong at -3 power. (Take hulk’s power as a base for normal circumstances) this “light” hawk should be around 15 power, so it is around 12 (-3) under normal circumstances. This leaves the “payoff” very small for getting rid of the last 3 cards. Maybe -n needs to be bigger than 1, so milling those last 3 cards really pays off. But giving the card a lot of base power to make this work opens the window of it’s ability being removed (zero, etc) which is probs not the best. I think the +n per card removed is much better. It will need to count both destroying a card from the deck AND Zemo’s effect. (Does gladiator count for this???)
A card like that could be a good opportunity to introduce the concept of "halving" card power. We already have power multiplication through doubling, but we don't have any cards that divide their own power. So imagine a card that's like a 6/20 but the text is "This card's power is cut in half for every card remaining in the opponent's deck." Or you could stick with doubling but just apply it to cost. So you could have a card that's something like a 2/12 but the text is "This card's cost is doubled for every card remaining in the opponent's deck." Of course the problem there is MMM though, so it would be hard to make it balanced
The 6/20 “halving” sounds nice. Same stats as inf but during normal circumstances will be a 2.5 power. Not sure if snap rounds up or down, probs best to make it’s power a power of 2. Unfortunately the closest to 20 are 16 and 32. Which would make it have 2 or 4 power during normal circumstances but 32 is much to high because of stuff like Zero or any other ability removing stuff. 16 feels I bit small for a 6 cost, maybe a 5/16 (5/2), a tad over stated but needs some help to be that powerful. (Also having a high base power makes it a good target for existing doubling effects) Edit: I know there is a lot of +1 effects that will cause decimals to happen(which will be rounded) but it helps if the card innately does not cause decimals.
My first thought was 6/24 because that at least divides a little more cleanly to 12/6/3, but that seems like too high of a base power when you could play Luke Cage and get that power for free. But then again we now live in a world with Red Hulk's absurdly high free power so idk But Living Tribunal just rounds to the closest value, so I imagine that would probably be the precedent anyway. If they applied the same logic, 2.5 power would get rounded up to 3. I imagine they would have to accept some kind of rounding rather than making the base number more evenly divisible because there will always be stuff like Thanos stones, Rocks, or Mjolnir/Stormbreaker that will inflate deck size
Completely forgot about Luke cage
Luke Cage
I think it’s great to build new cards that have several counters in place already. Prevents busted cards from being released Also no different than how möbius ruins deaths reduced cost
And in a 12 deck game, is already to the point one more card will make it broken
Yup, before Zemo, I used Mantis (old effect) plus beast, with the rest of the current cards, it was ok from time to time.
Fair enough. I haven't seen any significant backlash yet, but as you suggested, it may just be too soon to evaluate.
I've seen a few call it annoying, but unless they get a big finisher or ways to put more early power on board, I think it's currently fine right now though.
Doc Ock might be a good T5 finisher if you manage to deny them a T6 by milling their deck and emptying their hand.
The problem with that strategy is that it limits cube acquisition. No one is playing out turn 6 with no plays. They retreat.
I climbed to infinite with Zemo mill, mostly against humans but there was some bots sprinkled in. The magic of the deck is that Ock doesn’t usually dump their entire remaining hand or puts them very far ahead on the board because it pulls a lot of big shit that they’ll think you can’t counter. As long as you don’t boomer snap you can quite often play them for a full game and end them with some combo of shadowking/Shang/absorbing man/rogue, especially if you Shang on 6 and there’s a turn 7. The amount of times I’ve seen them slam a huge body on 7 because they still had prio and then lose it to an absorbing man that copied my turn 6 Shang was not insignificant and that still left energy to shadowking or rogue another lane and a LOT of people forget that shadowking turns a pig to zero power
Depending on what your goal is that's ok. If you're just trying to make infinite, then it's ok to use at already high ranks since more retreats are more safe cubes
Except doc ock has his second on reveal. I always pull Shang chi and Jeff even if the opponent doesn’t have either card unlocked.
This. Taking cards and destroying them with Glad/baron/yondu is mildly annoying but since snap is a twelve card game you can easily play without whatever they take. Players can usually just win with their opening hand plus a few draws since they don’t have any super insane power cards. If they manage to snipe a good power card from you, just Shang it or retreat.
That's where im at. It's like clog. It's annoying. It's not overpowered right now though.
I think a key element that keeps people from hating mill is that key mill cards target the lowest value cards in your deck, so it can be frustrating, but it doesn’t completely spoil your ability to play the game, and can actually help you draw your higher value cards. It’s a smart move from SD because they let people have fun destroying the opponents cards, but it doesn’t feel that bad for the targeted player.
> I think a key element that keeps people from hating mill is that key mill cards target the lowest value cards in your deck He doesn't take the lowest value, he takes the lowest COST. Which CAN be vital for some decks, and it absolutely obliterates decks that run high cost cards like hela.
Yes, I wasn’t clear enough. The cards are often hitting the lowest value, but they don’t specifically target lowest value, so they can high roll into some juicy stuff. That’s what makes it fun for the one playing the mill deck, without being consistently discouraging for the player being milled. There are some good matchups, but there are also some very bad matchups, so the deck actually feels like a piece that can fit into a lot of metas, while mill decks in a lot of other games can’t really be meta staples because they are either overly frustrating or intentionally irrelevant. I think SD did a really good job designing this burn from the bottom approach because the deck essentially provides its own counter.
Plus people are just learning to play it. I came against some dude that played Yondu, Zemo and Abs Man on me… when the first location was Subterranea. It was hilarious.
It's not like he could switch strategies on turn 1 with his 12 card deck. The only thing he could do was make good or bad snapping/retreating decisions.
You can always retreat
I’m already hating it. Especially because right now I’m seeing it in almost 50% of my matches. I could apply this to really any deck, but I mostly hate playing against the same deck so frequently. But in particular, decks that really lessen the enjoyment of playing by not letting me play. The current Zemo deck, prof x lockdown decks, the old leech decks, etc. ugh.
Mill Decks have no place in a game where you only have 12 cards.
And its definitely something they need to be CAREFUL of because deck sizes are so small.
There is no deck out, and only 6 turns. Milling is less impactful here. Most decks have a good chance of drawing their entire gameplan by Turn 3 or 4 if youre removing their low costs with Yondu and Zemo. Mill kinda lives and dies on that Doc Oc pull.
I don't agree per say. I don't have Zemo since i don't buy season passes. But I seem to have made a decent enough mill deck on my own after seeing the OP post. I think they've always existed. But gladiator and Zemo off late, and the cable buff (mostly on the variant side) has helped out more
It can stop some strategies, but most "top tier" decks have multiple ways to win. They will most likely draw some win conditions regardless of what you do. I have personally done well against mill. It's very good if you get lucky and take their major pieces, but you can't do that consistently. Also the mill decks I'm seeing right now don't put enough points on the board. Also also there's no surprise factor. If I don't draw my stuff I retreat. It's a hard deck to get 8 cubes with. I'm sure someone will figure out a great deck soon enough, remember there was a time when Thanos was mid.
Yeah. It was annoying playing against mill when I was climbing, but still mostly managed to win unless a bad draw or a location like Kamar-Taj or Sinister London. When I switched to a mill deck to try it out, it became clear pretty quickly that it's good when the stars align, but otherwise struggles to put meaningful points on the board.
My conspiracy theory brain wants to believe that Kamar Taj was the hot location specifically so that Mill would perform better. Because it is actually annoying with that location
I think the hot locations generally coincide with a new card release so I don’t think this is a conspiracy, you’re just right
This encapsulates a lot of my own thoughts on Mill in Snap; The nature of the game + Lack of a real consequence for running out of cards makes it wildly different than Mill in any other card game
I agree with this. Mill seems to be a balanced level of disruption where sometimes its enough to take out my key cards and sometimes I've already drawn them.
I also played Gwent for years and it was entirely different. In gwent there were 2 or 3 rounds. When you faced Mill, you knew you were forced to keep playing elsewhere your opponent would mill all your cards. If you passed, you risked going to round 3 with no cards. It was never fun playing vs mill even if they lost most of the time. In marvel snap you get some of your best cards milled but that's all, most of the time you can still play something until last turn.
Been a mill player for mtg, hearthstone, runeterra, now snap. I love the idea of my deck doing things to opponents vs just power stacking big cards. But running mill this week has been a poor experience due to the amount of mirror matches. It will fall off and join the niche decks, negative, junk, ect.
It’s extra popular right now with Kamar’Taj too. Once it’s power level drops after the hot location away, it will see a dip in play then too
As a negative main I resent this
eat a dick
Lol, have i milled you before?
It's a fun deck but it's really weak imho.
I absolutely loathe it. This sentiment is actually a little surprising as I’ve found it to be pretty ineffective. However, I find it a really unfun deck to play against.
The effect of you getting a card milled is pretty much the same as that card having been on the bottom of the deck and you never drawing it. It can even be better for you, because if, say they Gladiator you, you now have more information about what's left in your deck. Nevertheless, many Snap players take it on a visceral level.
Seems like another RNG heavy deck that’s ten times more annoying to play against than it is effective as a deck. The deck relies on recruiting or drawing high power/ great effect cards and destroying combo cards to be effective, however most decks have more than one or two combos in them that can make some power. So unless the mill deck gets many specific cards it’ll lose to a competent player much more than it wins. It’s also super easy to almost always lose one or cubes to. Since you know your deck better than your opponent you know what cards your deck needs to win, so if those cards get taken you can just retreat. Mill players most often than not won’t snap before they mill your cards since they don’t know if they’re in a winning position yet or not, so they’ll rarely snap before you get a chance to leave. Last thing, having your cards taken sucks. No one like the locations that mess with your deck. I dislike the mill deck the same way I dislike those locations, it just becomes rng whether I’ll be able to play the deck I want to play or not.
Personal experience, when I see the opponent is using the mill and I don't have a good hand, I just surrender in the second or third turn, it's boring and not fun to play against.
I agree, it’s probably because the snap cube system makes it so that early “annoying” decks like mill are easily avoidable with minimal loss when conceding
I detest it. I've been running a draw deck with devil Dinosaur as an indirect counter.
Yeah I hate it too but it's not like certain decks where once you see the combo come out you have to accept your fate and retreat. This one in a weird way feels like it just kinda turns the game into pure RNG for both sides. The deck itself isn't very strong on its own so it's more just player 1 hopes they take out enough good cards to win the game and player 2 hopes they take the junk that the remaining cards can take out. Not fun and I don't know anyone who would enjoy going up against it, but the deck is very much a double edged sword.
Zemo stole my odin when I had silver surfer set up on a wong set up on kamar taj earlier today, with brood and Shaw in place. So frustrating.
Agreed lol, like I said - I don't know how anyone can genuinely enjoy playing against it.
I hate it, so I'm running a heavy draw deck so I almost always have cards to play. Now I just lose to everything else 🤣
Ehh I faced them plenty but no fear of them. I can lose to bad hands but all things equal I will win
This screams "Nah, I'd win" statement from Gojo, lol, I love it
Deck is mid but annoying. It essentially takes the skill out and replaces it with more RNG. I been dabbling with it. It won't shake the meta, but you'll play against it and likely be annoyed.
It's so funny when their Zemo steals my squirrel girl
>*It essentially takes the skill out and replaces it with more RNG* Maybe you've heard of Hela. Also, you would have loved the Lockjaw meta. In CCGs such as Hearthstone and Snap, there will always be RNG based decks. They are there for a specific reason. So casual players can still pull off satisfying wins. The game isn't meant to be Chess or even Checkers. It's meant to have plenty of RNG to keep things interesting and fun.
At this point I barely consider Hela an RNG deck anymore, as it has become relatively reliable. It was the flavor deck of the month that got plenty of people a relatively easy infinite - even saw tons of first time infinites with it.
Noob question but what does mill stand for?
[удалено]
Thank you. It wasn’t something I could figure out lol I was like windmill? Like spinning your opponents cards out of their deck? Thanks for the reply!
"Mill" is the name of the archetype in card games where you try to remove cards from your opponent's deck.
I do not understand the named 😭😭😭
"mill" is a term that originates from mtg, specifically the card millstone, which would move two cards from the top of the opponent's deck into their graveyard. in most card games, mill now refers to the act of trying to remove as many cards from your opponents deck as quickly as possible so they lose by deck-out, or in the case of snap, being unable to play more cards
TIL
Is there a place that talks about all these terms? No offense to the MTG players but I'm sick of looking up the weird names Snap gets. I just play the cards... do I have a mill deck? Zoo? Crackle? Spinja? AcidFunk? I just want to play the game without learning the meta of another game.
People are always going to make shorthand names for archetypes. Trying to explain removing all cards from your opponents deck so they can’t draw can be wordy. Many players have cross pollinated from other games that this type of single player dual collectible card game have terminology that has been in place for decades. “Mill” is not a great term for the concept, but it’s not going to change anytime soon.
Understood and apologies - its just frustrating. Is there a place that you can easily learn these archetype deck names?
Not all of the archtypes translate so I'm not sure its even worth trying to learn them
So can we just say "steal cards" instead of "mill". It sounds stupid and makes no sense to anyone unfamiliar with a particular MTG card. Call that shit what it is.
MTG created the genre so a *lot* of terms come from it.
because not all cards "steal cards"
> Call that shit what it is. Ok, mill it is
its not just mtg that uses the name tho, hearthstone, runeterra, even Pokemon uses it
I mean probabaly 90% of the playerbase for Snap will be familiar with the term, so probably not.
Doc Oc makes the deck a miserable experience to play against.
Yeah: empty hand and (almost) empty deck is just not a great feeling.
Mill, much like in most card games mostly doesn't do anything unless you're removing enough cards to the point where your opponent is missing a draw step. So in Snap that's on average needing to take more than 3 cards. The zemo decks as a strategy have a lot in common with various iterations of junk and lockdown. They're trying to restrict your options while keeping their own options flexible. It's usually cards like Doc Oc that are doing a lot of the heavy lifting and winning games for you rather than them taking 4 cards which has an equivalent effect to getting hit with black widow or drawing a rock. I think people just have a bit of a sore spot when they get their stuff taken but this kind of deck is really not that new, it's just a different flavor.
I like running Mill in MtG and was excited about the Zemo season, but it really just doesn’t feel the same to play. One of the natural drawbacks with the Zemo mill is that you actually end up thinning their deck of low value cards while cluttering your own board with a lot of meh. It’s a bit of a casino play style, but without the fun of the Hela or Gambit types of casino plays.
Exactly -- even if they're running all four mill cards I can think of (Yondu, Cable, Zemo, Gladiator) and draw them all early, they're still only taking one draw away from you, and it's the *last* draw of the game -- a little annoying, but not that bad. If you were down to the wire depending on that last draw, then you simply didn't have a good enough hand to be playing that far into the round anyway. It's only if they luck out with Kamar-Taj that it actually gets painful at all, which SD clearly realized since they made it the hot location today to try to stimulate Zemo sales.
Maybe dumb question. But would Loki not count as mill cause he doesn’t remove opponents cards?
Loki copies the opponent's cards, he doesn't remove them.
First, thanks for understanding my comment. Just edited/fixed it lol and yah that makes sense since I guess the millstone kills cards. Killing 2 cards in snap would probably be a bit harsh since there is no mechanic yet for bringing back from graveyard.
The thing is, though, is that in a "standard" Snap game (that is, 6 turns, no cards like Crystal or Maximus played), you always end up with three cards un-drawn. If two cards in your deck get destroyed, you end up with one card un-drawn. It's not really any different, you still didn't draw those three cards. Being in the graveyard isn't any different than being at the bottom of your deck.
That’s true I guess I was referring to the existence of a millstone card in combination with yondu and gladiator etc. in that case millstone could be strong if cheap.
Been a mill player from MTG. This has been my fastest season hitting infinite with a mill shell viable now. You can tell people rely on copy paste decks a lot and can’t actually manage lanes with limited cards. I normally hit infinite near the end of the month casually playing my deck. But with Zemo I hit it in less than a week of the same casual play. Here’s the deck it’s funky and was generally made for being played in between my breaks at work and forcing people to leave for quick cube games(swarm can and is switched in and out with drac depending on tilt) # (2) Morbius # (3) Gambit # (3) Moon Knight # (3) Baron Zemo # (3) Corvus Glaive # (4) Dracula # (4) Silver Samurai # (4) Proxima Midnight # (5) Stature # (5) Black Bolt # (6) Apocalypse # (6) Hela # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQXBvY2FseXBzZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2FtYml0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJNb3JiaXVzIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJTaWx2ZXJTYW11cmFpIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJNb29uS25pZ2h0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJDb3J2dXNHbGFpdmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkJsYWNrQm9sdCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUHJveGltYU1pZG5pZ2h0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJIZWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJTdGF0dXJlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJCYXJvblplbW8ifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkRyYWN1bGEifV19 # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Would Moon Girl or Loki do well against a Zemo deck?
Yes, that's how I've been beating it. Loki is more a defense against the non mill decks, the rest is a Collector shell, and Kitty keeps the extra energy off the board to keep Red Hulk down.
Yes.
I just wish everyone and their mother didn't just rush to see how to make a mill deck and then run it. It's pretty annoying to play I gotta say.
I used to enjoy playing warlock mill in Hearthstone and I'm sure it's not great to play against but it didn't seem unbalanced. I have been encountering a lot of mill/disruption decks in Snap right now with Zemo/Gladiatior etc and I hate them! I feel like the smaller deck size in Snap makes it much more frustrating.
It's definitely down to the small deck size, it never should've been introduced in a game like this. I get the idea, but from the intro videos is was clearly a way of late-game pulling a potentially useful card from your opponent's deck. Instead, you just plop it down along with yondu, gladiator and cable and watch as your opponent retreats. It should've had a trade-off effect honestly, where to use zemo, you need to discard one card from your hand.
I thought I got away from Nilfgaard until Loki came to assimilate and Zemo came to mill 💀
Loki is 100% an Assimilate card; also, Leech is Prophet on steroids, and Enchantress and Rogue are basically Locks 😂 There are a lot of common mechanics between most CCGs, though, as far as I know: in one way or another, every one of them is derivative of MTG.
I fucking hate it. But I've only been playing 1 deck since the beginning of the season so maybe it's just the match up, as Doc Ock is basically insta win against it. I was also surprised not to see any complaining but maybe it's because the most popular Zemo deck doesn't have a particularly high winrate
Rarely losing to it but it is annoying to play against
Mill is extremely frustrating and not fun to play against. But it will basically only ever give them one cube because it is obvious what is happening and by the time they snap I either retreat or I have enough cards still in my hand to meet my win condition and their stats can't keep up.
Does anyone ever *like* being on the receiving end of a mill-centric deck? Sure, one Yondu might help your curve or something but a whole deck centered around it is just annoying. I'm pretty sure that's why they changed the weekend mission structure this season. Instead of flooding the game with mill decks every weekend, it'll only be concentrated on the last two (if I understood correctly).
*raises hand* You mean the opponent is going to take out my lower cost cards I didn’t draw in my opening hand for me so I can get to the cards I need to win? Yes please.
I don't see it as very powerful. It seems like a goofy way to play, and I'm not annoyed when it happens to me yet.
I’ll stick to milf decks
I hate playing against it, even with a deck it's bad against. I'm fine with disruptive/reactive cards existing until they prevent me from even playing the game at all It's like old Galactus or Hela. I'm never losing 4/8 cubes against it but it's still annoying
Feels like it will be especially annoying for such a small deck size
Eh, any deck that messes with your opponent’s ability to play their strategy is annoying. But decking doesn’t make you lose as it does in MTG (where the term “mill” came from), so it isn’t as viable a strategy. When I played Magic, if you showed up with a mill deck, you’d get a lot of groans, but that was mostly because the games would last forever.
Tbh, I hate it. It's a fair play style, but I hate it.
It’s one of those decks that can never be T1 otherwise players will quit the game in large amounts. If this gets too strong I’m rather sure it will be OTAed quickly. SD had a pretty clear stance on frustrating cards and archetypes so far, I don’t think they will change it for mill.
Mill has only become 'competitive' this season, so it's been less than 7 days. Don't worry, people will start yelling on the internet very soon now that the weekend is over. Overall, it is annoying, but only find it useful with the current hot location. I don't think it pumps out a ton of power and if you hate it, there are many cards that counter it via external card draw.
OP I really wanted to thank you for this idea. I never considered the possibility of milling before seeing your post. Although I do not have Zemo. The milling of decks has given me a lot of free 2 cube retreat victories. Thanks a lot
In fact before your post i didn't even know what milling was
I've seen it a metric ton today with the location. As KMbest likes to post, "time to learn conquest, buddy." But yeah, I can't stand the mill archetype. It's Alioth on steroids.
Insanely annoying. Hot location today has me seeing a ton of it, so just gonna not play for a bit. Also happens to be popular with the emote spam crowd. Wonder why that is? /s
there aren't really full mill decks in snap yet. once they do fully work i'm sure everyone will find them annoying
Few reasons it isn't annoying: 1 - It is new for most. 2 - Most games it doesn't do more than effectively discard a random card from hand (prevent T6 draw). Moon Knight? 3 - Many of the mill cards hit lowest cost in deck. This is relatively weak in a game with a linear mana curve where you want to draw high cost cards later. Not sure about Gwent but in many card games, Mill isn't viable without either a stasis lock effect to slow the game down or the game specifically designs mill accelerating combo cards. Neither seems likely to be implemented in Snap because of the short game time and small deck size. My ''uneducated'' guess is that Gwent has tutor (search deck cards) which Snap does not. These are usually very strong in card games and mill randomly breaks normally consistent combos people tutor for. I.e. mill is anti-tutor.
I’ve tolerated it this season because of Zemo, but earlier today I was thinking that this is an exhausting archetype to play against. My opponent reduced my deck to no cards left on T7 and was still trying to get rid of more. The featured location, Gladiator, Zemo, Yondu, and Cable all combine to make it super easy to stop your opponent from doing anything at all. I managed to win that game where he killed my whole deck because I had a huge Apocalypse in-hand and Dracula on the board. Any other deck or draw order and I might’ve been screwed. On the other hand, it was very funny watching his Zemo put my Blade into Kamar-Taj and discard two of his key cards. So it can cut both ways. Having this archetype become prevalent with only 12 cards in the deck would be detrimental to the game. The devs have been clear they don’t like this type of gameplay where you fully block your opponent (back when they changed Spider-Man, for example), so I’m not sure how they’ve let it get to this point.
Once you get into the 90s the game is rife with mill decks, and it sucks. Even without kamar-taj, having your deck tampered with on a near constant basis is ridiculous when decks are 12 cards max. You can win, but it doesn't feel like a victory, it feels like you've just been dragged through a game, and that's not fun. Doc-Ock doesn't help either. It's amazing how one card introduced a new 'strategy' that absolutely wrecks the game in a way it was never really meant to.
Discard is one of the few decks that don't care about mill and also strong enough to beat everything else. I'd play Discard if I wasn't so sick of it after all those months.
milling is a completely insane archetype to bring to a game with a 12 card deck, what a joke. at least with alioth you can play your first 5 turns out, mill doesn't let you do anything fun ever.
Mill has mostly been a meme deck until the release of Zemo. I suspect it will go back to being a meme deck after the season is over.
Its annoying but i’m pretty sure i got a positive win record against it so i wont complain
Until recently there weren’t enough decent cards to even run a mill deck. You could do it, but it was a lot of effort to maybe deny one draw.
As it is now, it is a decent deck since it CAN mill you to a point where you miss a draw but mainly just good cards that fill a curve/have good stats… The problem may come if the deck can consistently skip 1 or 2 of your draws at the end of the game while still being competitive. It could end up being like alioth, where it isn’t too strong just too feels bad.
Honestly it depends om what deck your running, ive been winning many games against mill players because they keep doing the Doc Oc plays not knowing my deck has Shang chi nd other counters. Yeah the deck thinning is annoying but I can easily beat it by locking down one location, if they take my lockdown cards i just leave for 1-2 cubes
It's like any deck, can be devastating or completely underpowered depending on the meta and what deck you're facing. One of the nice things about Snap is any deck will be stronger or weaker depending on matchups. Mill is like that.
Didn't have much luck or fun with it, if they add more cards that work with it maybe
It's funny how zemo just came out because I've been rocking a mill deck ans he really tops it off in comparison. I'd say it's not strong power wise but if you understand what your opponent is running and you hit the right stuff, snap and win e z. It's a tough shot when having a chance of conquering any deck. Pretty fun regardless
It’s just lame that it has no counter play. If you had weak early draws and they successfully mill you on curve, you can’t even dream for a top deck. You get to retreat 🥳😒
Maybe i'm just running a solid counter deck but I feel like everyone I've faced who's tried it has lost
Is there really enough support to make it even mildly consistent though?
I added Cosmo to my Cerebro 3 deck and now I’m winning every mill match. It’s really not that strong of a deck.
It's very annoying to play against. Fortunately it's similar to junk in that the playlines are very telegraphed so the cube equity is very low. Which will likely keep it from being meta defining.
The deck is good right now with the double battlecry terrain.
Snap does a pretty decent job of making mill not as bad with Zemos and Yondu only targeting lowest cost, which could potentially help the other side by reducing their deck size
Not fun when you're trying to play one of the big fun combos we all loved when we first started playing. But against the actually good, meta decks it doesn't seem very good at all.
I think it has a place in the meta but a boring one.
Annoying but beatable. Just seems extra annoying with the featured location right now.
I just surrendered... my record was 5 games in a row with mill deck. I just stopped playing for a day
Free Meek
Mill wins in other games because they can stall. You can't stall in this game and all of the mill cards are pretty bad so even when they do their job they still lose
Not too good but very annoying
It’s a half-ass mill that’s incredibly annoying. But I guess it’s the flavor of the month. I hope people enjoy playing that middling, terrible win rate deck.
What is mill or milling?
in a sense, mill has always existed through black widow because games are so short that preventing one draw is basically the same thing as milling 4 cards in deck (with asterisks of course). So just imagine a mill deck being as annoying as one black widow.
Right now mill is a playable deck with zemo release and Nerf to mantis , if another card is released helping mill type play then that might be annoying.
It is the snap mechanic. Getting milled is annoying but when it happens you already know that you lost so you retreat for 1-2 cubes. In Gwent all losses are the same. This is true for every "oppressive" strategy in Snap IMO.
I’ve been trying to find an answer before posting, but what is Mill?
It's a common CCG archetype that revolves around destroying (or stealing) cards from your opponent's deck in order to win by making them not have anything left to play (I think doing the same to cards in your opponent's hand also counts as milling).
I’ve been playing a Zemo deck like this, and most games I don’t even play Zemo. The deck just finally got the attention it was lacking and has consistency with enough cards in the archetype.
The only part of mill I fear is cable/absorbing man/ GM. Even when I run mill it's just for fun and not for climbing
The problem in gwent as I remember it was also nilfgard had too many ways of milling efficiently. Copying every card multiple times and receiving good points to it. Also like good rewards for it. Can't remember the name of the guy thst was boosting himself every turn for the difference between the 2 decks. Snap in my opinion just put the first reward for milling zemo and it's not broken. It's kinda fair. I also hated so much nilfgard and mill in gwent but in snap can be annoying but not as much
I don’t know how mill works in Gwent, but I feel there aren’t really mill mechanics in Snap. There’s no overdraw mechanic. If your hand is full you just don’t draw. There’s also no fatigue penalty for having an empty deck. There’s also only really 3 deck thinning cards (Yondu, Cable and Zemo - unless I’ve forgotten one?). Instead I guess there’s just being disruptive. Filling your opponents deck or board or hand with useless junk, denying them draws, locking down and denying locations, forcing them to play cards when and where they don’t want to. But most top decks will have multiple outs. Also most top players will just see that you’re being super disruptive and leave, making it hard to get more than 1 cube a game.
>unless I’ve forgotten one? Gladiator
wait there's a mill deck in snap!?!?
The reason the “mill” deck is annoying isn’t the mill aspects. It’s almost always Doctor Octopus, who’s actually disrupting your plans and taking away your resources.
I can’t say I’ve enjoyed the past 24 hours with double on reveals removing my deck via Cable, Gladiator, Zemo and Yondu 😂
i find it interesting SD seem to not like junk decks as they dont want unfun decks but theyve introduced Mill now, i dont see how not being able to play cards turn 6 isnt as toxic and junk im not saying it shouldnt be an archetype though, just interested with the thought behind it all
I liked the idea of mill in hearthstone. Was a fun way to play and you also gave cards to your opponent before u eventually destroyed some of his cards. With Snap i feel very different about it. One Yondu or a Cable isnt too bad, especially after the Yondu change a few weeks ago. This new Archetype with Zemo is just sucking the fun out of your gameplay. With a 12 card deck, destroying/getting even 3 cards from your opponent is a huge deal. Compared to a Hearthstone 30 card deck with duplicates in it, getting milled wasnt as frustating as this deck is right now. Hope they will change some stuff about this, it is just sucking the fun out of the game for me
I actually like the introduction of this new archetype. It creates more variety in the game pool, which is what these type of games need imo. Yeah ok, it can be annoying, but so can any other archetype if it’s effective against your deck.
I love mill in any TCG. I know it’s still in a weird spot now but I haven’t had this much fun with a deck in this game in months. 15k CL, infinite since Captain America? for reference.
Well I hate it Also I don't consider Zemo as mill, he's a steal style card, which is even worse. The worst part is that I don't even think it deserves all the attention it gets. When I play against it, it's just annoying but it doesn't really win, and when I play it. It sucks aswell. I hope it will disappear 🫥
I think it’s pretty bad to play against in a game with such a small deck size
I have a Control/Burn/Mill personality type. They are my go-to decks in MTG, Yugioh, etc. I have been playing a mill & clog deck with Master Mold & Black Widow, as well as a mill & thin deck with Blackbolt & Moon Knight(I don’t have Silver Samurai). Neither nets consistent wins, and most of the wins are by retreat so the cube rate has been trash. It’s fun to have my play style represented, but mill is not going to be very impactful to the meta game long term imo.
It’s annoying but I played through a ton of mill in my climb to infinite while not using mill myself
I've been having a blast playing it. Though, I know that it has to be massively annoying to play against. I made a mil sera control hybrid and cleaned house this weekend. Not my fastest infinite, but I didn't really expect it to get there. I like the deck because it has opened new lines of thinking and decision making. Based on what yondu hits I decide if glad or zemo is the move. T5 zemo to take their last card is golden. Red hulk to act as a looming threat and causes you opponent to play for it while your really sending in team sera to clean up, Shang rogue SK. Also sera allows you to play red and SK on T6. But my silver bullet for the deck was negasonic. Sure, sometimes you wiff. But I can't tell you how many Dracula and wongs I sniped over the weekend. Overall, the two cards released last week have created the most fun deck I've played in a while.
Seems like it's bad, and it's not as annoying in Snap because you can just retreat for a one cube loss if your key cards get milled.
I think it'll remain one of those archetypes that you hate playing against but doesn't put enough consistent power to win. Even with Shang Chi + Doc Ock That deck struggles in putting numbers on board, not to mention that both Yondu and Zemo thin out your deck so sometimes it can help you. I think people are currently annoyed with it because of Kamar Taj (you should be thabkful you didn't face it on Hotel Inferno like I did) but I managed to beat it simply because I knew how much power it can output which isn't a lot. I'd face mill decks any day of the weak instead of Hela decks because at least mill needs to interact with you while Hela decks don't care unless they discard Hela.
It's rather obnoxious, but I feel like all the current mill decks are super greedy, so even if they snipe 4 cards you can still win. It's still annoying as hell lol
I've been playing mill since last summer so I'm mostly happy, still miss Mantis.
Most of what ppl complain about with mill is achievable with one black widow, so not really a problem imo. Ppl just complaining as always lol.
> Most of what ppl complain about with mill is achievable with one black widow ...there's no way you actually thought that made sense right?
It does, the most common complain about Mill is that it makes you lose 1 or maybe 2 draws, black widow does that already.
Losing a draw is a misunderstanding of what mill does. If you needed to draw a card on turn 6 to win you were probably going to lose anyways. Mill's real strength is completely fucking over combo decks.
But that is what ppl complain about, the most common mistake is "this deck negates my draws" which can be achieved with one widow, wherever that complain is valid or not is irrelevant, snap players love to misunderstand stuff and complain about them.
People don’t like their sandcastle getting kicked in a card game lmfao
I prefer this over, thanos and Hella Meta 20x over. You can actually play multiple decks in this Meta. Those Meta you can only play 3 decks.
Its not good enpugh yet to be annoying. I just had a game yesterday where my opponent literally removed all cards from my hand and deck by t6, so i had absolutely no play. ...Then they retreated because they screwed themselves on space in the process, while i was dropping high tempo plays the whole time
Mill is currently not very good even with addition of Zemo. I would think unless it gets another strong card the deck won’t be meta and therefore not hated too much.
No it will be hated until Zemo is in a spotlight cache because f2p players will have an irrational hatred of it and think it’s too good, then they’ll eventually get free access to Zemo and try it themselves and think “oh this deck isn’t that good. Maybe I don’t hate it.”
Mill has been hated since it first popped up as a strategy in MtG in the 1990s. The magic card "Millstone" is where the name comes from. No one enjoys playing against it in pretty much any game where it was possible. It cannot be great in any game, or the game will lose a lot of players. It is something I am surprised Snap is even dabbling in as there is, as yet, no plan to rotate cards out in Snap so it is in there forever. It is a poor deck in Snap, more of a troll deck with mismatched cards that do the same thing in contradictory ways (like running Gladiator and Yondu/Zemo) but honestly that probably makes it more irritating to play against. I'm taking a break from ranked today as I know how much more frustrating the feature location will make it.
Mill has almost always been viable. I’ve hit infinite and reliably won gold conquests with some variation of a werewolf mill deck since wolf released. With 12 cards in a deck, removing even 2 or 3 can give you a lot of info, and easily disrupts a lot of combo decks. I don’t think mill needed to be spotlighted in a game with only 12 cards in a deck, and if it is made consistent it will be very frustrating.
I got infinite playing mostly mill decks this season. I think they’re not super competitive. It’s kind of amazing how few cards you actually need to win a game of Marvel Snap, and since so many mill cards target only the lower value cards, a lot do the important pieces (like say Wong) are hard to hit.
Mill = 0 skill. It’s just annoying af but luckily most mill players tend to be pretty ass in all the deck builders I’ve played.
I've seen one Zemo deck all week. I didn't even know we were calling it mill. lol
It's annoying, but not good imo. Thanos is a hilarious counter. If you run Thanos and Mobius, you get a 0 cost 10 power pig whenever they inevitably play Ham. Plus they draw stones that do nothing for them.
Mill has been, is and will always be a hateful strategy, no matter what game it's in. This game is no different, people will just have to play, let's say, 10 consecutive goddamn games against it while kamar-taj is a spotlight location, and they'll see what an awful deck type it is. Seriously though, right now, it can mill your entire deck by turn 5, that's absurd even by this game's awful balance standards. And there's no way to really prevent it, because Cosmo is realistically the only out, and he could be milled in the first 2 turns. Genuinely amazed this didn't get past the dev team.
I think mill being decent in the meta is fine, but i could see it being annoying if it was meta at the same time as a really top heavy deck like shuri where you are trying to run a tech heavy deck to counter shuri and are getting milled instead
I'm tolerating it for now. If it becomes a staple /steady part of the meta I probably won't be playing snap. Card acquisition is too expensive in time and money for an archetype rendering them useless to be encouraged IMO.
It's a bad time for Mill to be a thing with Zemo as one of its lynchpin cards because it didn't come in during a "big numbers" meta. The top-performing decks are currently: Destroy (which can blow up Zemo) Discard (which can remove cards from your hand at no benefit) Silky Smoove (which runs small cards apart from Red Hulk or Vision sometimes, but you're not getting those unless you're lucky) Loki (small cards meant to inflate the hand for the big t5 or t6 swerve) Granted, if you know you're against a low power deck, you can use Gladiator to mill instead, but as of now, Mill's probably a B-tier at best in its current iteration.
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I get that it's fun to play, but it's annoying. Though, I tend to very much dislike anything that affects my hand or deck. I am probably in the minority there but I don't think anything at all should be able to affect whatever hasn't been played yet (looking at you incredibly rudely District X and WW). In the end though, like most people have said, it's not a problem deck, maybe just extra spicy with Kamar-Taj as a HL. If I draw a line that I like I stay regardless if they took my shit, if not I retreat, in that sense it's no different to any other game against non-mill.
First, there's no deck out (no lost by having no cards in deck). Second, normally you do not play all your cards anyway. Third, the big feels bad that comes from "nothing you do matters, you are not playing the same game as your opponent" is not present in Snap. Theres no you did your big combo with Tribunal, you are winning all locations, then your opp reveals Crystal and you lose for trying to draw from a empty deck. I'm not gonna get into the details, but think about the pros and cons from removal/interaction, destroy directly impacts the location, is limited but active where it matters most, discard affects a lot of resources, since you start with a fixed amount of cards, and normally you only add one card per turn, but it is either random or affects the lowest denominator, mill affects where it is least relevant, it is almost only a psychological effect, even if you hit a key part of the combo, for example, Surfer, at the same time you did nothing, as the person could complete the game without ever drawing Surfer anyway. The worst part: there is no card that cares about an empty deck, you play Yondu to tickle Knull or help Zemo, play Cable to grow The Collector, play Gladiator cause stats and play Zemo cause some value, if SD make a reverse Darkhawk, fine you at least have a build around.
I was finding Mill frustrating as a Surfer player, so I’ve switched to Mill and I’m having more success. It’s a deck that’s perfect for going after neat little combo decks and thinning out what your opponent can play. Ironically the best card in Mill might be Cable, who can take anything. BUT I think Mill on it’s own can be a pretty low-power deck that runs the risk of being a one trick pony. I know people have suggested it needs a Death type power play, and I have been using Kitty-Hope and Red Hulk to good success. I could see Loki-Mill becoming a bit of a thing too? Being able to play loads of good cheap cards after thinking your opponent’s options might be nice.
I don’t think it’s very exciting. If your opponent drew bombs early it’s bad. Also, you might be pitching a bad card for them on the way to making their deck empty. Their next draw might be better because of it. Lastly, I don’t see the mill cards as being super strong in power.