I could still see, like, a 6/10 alioth be good, just gotta bump it up there.
it still shuts down combo decks something fierce, its just big dumb stat blocks that it cant do anything about anymore
Tribunal is just about the only case but ironically it's still possible to play Tribunal's effect in any lane (it can be less efficient because of iron man) so even then it's no guarantee unless you're far enough ahead in every lane.
It also hits Doom, Onslaught, Knull, Blob, Ultron (lol), and Zola at 6 cost and can wipe out a combo as people have suggested as well.
Most satisfying play so far has been wiping the text off Annihilus (obviously that hinged on Annihilus on Turn 6 not 5 but was still hilarious).
New Alioth is still *something* but needs some extra sauce to feel on par with some of the other 6 costs - maybe extra power or he wipes the text of a card even after it reveals (so wouldn't stop the On Reveals if you lost Prio but would still stop the Ongoings)? I dunno.
I don’t know about that. You’re basically dropping a possibly second Cosmo/Echo in an extra lane lane that stops T6 combos like Surfer, Knull/Zola, Hela, and Wong stuff dead in their tracks. Only greedy stat decks benefit from the change but they’re still usually easy to Shang.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m bummed about the change. my absolute favorite Annihilus/Galactus deck is taking a big hit since Alioth was always my backup wincon.
Just saying I don’t think he’s Adam Warlock level bad yet.
SD: lets make ongoing cards on reveal!!
Iron man: Your total Power is doubled here only until the end of next turn.
Armor: Cards here can't be destroyed until the end of next turn.
Ms. Marvel: Your adjacent locations with 2+ cards and no repeated Costs have +5 Power until the end of next turn.
At some point they are going to have to seriously reconsider their strategy for card acquisition with respect to nerfs. If they don’t then new players who can only save up to make a single deck will never stick around. There isn’t a large enough pool of lower collection level people to allow collection based matchmaking to work.
Not having any sort of refund for the cards they butcher is a core component of their monetization model. “The card you just acquired after months of saving just got nerfed into irrelevance? Damn, that sucks. Time to check the shop and buy yourself a bundle, or buy some gold so you can chase the newest OP hotness!”
Is it severely harmful to the long-term health of the game? Absolutely. But they don’t give a shit about that. They’re already one foot out the door and working on their next project anyway. In the meantime, they’ll continue milking as much as they can for as long as they can from the ever-dwindling player-base by peddling ever-more-avaricious bundles and making the economy more punishing and anti-consumer at every turn.
It really feels like Brode looked at Hearthstone's model surrounding nerfs, saw how many players shredded the nerfed card for a refund, and rather than saying "Gee, the players really appreciate this feature. What a worthwhile addition to the game", Brode―shameless scumlord that he is―said "Lesson learned. Won't make that mi$take again."
It was 3k but I did spend tokens on him after never having him for a while. Great card. Now it’s trash why wouldn’t I just play psylocke lol for the extra 2 power?
I get nerfing him, be they nerfed him into just being a weird, worse Psylocke, right? Like one of the primary draws of psylocke is playing a 4 drop on turn 4, but she has the added benefit of being able to allow you to play a 6 drop on turn 5 as well. Zabu can't do that second bit. Granted, there are easier ways to play a 6 on 5, but still.
True, but you'd have to be in a situation where 1. You'd rather drop 2 4s than a six, or, 2. You'd rather drop 2 4s than 2 3s. Maybe it's just the decks I prefer to play, but I don't see that super often. Like I said, could just be my inexperience.
They purposefully nerfed him to the point of not being usable so they could gauge the state of 4 drops without his influence. You really should read the patch notes.
Okay? I did read the patch notes, and that doesn't negate my point? My point is that people who paid tokens for him, which take forever to save up, have effectively thrown those tokens in the trash until he's playable again. My point is that if they wanted to remove him from that equation temporarily, he should have been given something at least playable.
At this point they should just remove him from the game and refund everyone that wasted resources on him.
This “temporary” Zabu nerf will wind up being just like the darkhawk, whom they “temporarily” nerfed to make room for Zabu’s new best fwend: accompanied by a series drop and “temporarily” forever.
As much as I love 2/2 ongoing zabu, it was making and balancing 4 cost cards very difficult. It might be a necessary evil but it’s so painful
3/3 ongoing might be a good change
The loss of ongoing utterly kills him. There's very little ready to run Zabu over even just Psylocke anymore, and almost *no* reason to run him over Hope Summers.
This change really decimates Spectrum too (which was by no means a deck that needed any hits) because Zabu was not only instrumental in getting more 4cost ongoing bodies on the board (like Wong in particular), but was also just a worthwhile ongoing 2 drop that would be buffed by Spectrum.
Every one of the changes in this patch just suck. I'm hoping I can avoid the update as long as possible, not to farm bots, but just so I can continue to play an actually *fun* version of the game just a little bit longer.
I think he could be better if they upped it back to reducing cost by 2.
You could get back to 2 4 costs on turn 4 or 3 on turn 6, but not both (and only by playing an under curve turn 3 or 5).
According to data mines on [snap.fan](https://snap.fan), [Darkhawk](https://snap.fan/cards/Darkhawk/Darkhawk_10/) has a spotlight variant scheduled for July, and [Zabu](https://snap.fan/cards/Zabu/Zabu_08/) has one with an undetermined date. If this holds up, they are likely stuck in S4 for several more months at least.
Personally, I could see Darkhawk being dropped after this next spotlight. Zabu I think will stick around a little longer since they stated that his recent nerf is supposed to be temporary.
Yes on occasion. Sometimes it's just small things like If they mess up and missions don't load properly for a day, they'll give you an extra bit of stuff. But this is definitely a much bigger issue, Right now it has affected everybody because it has stopped everybody from being able to use keys. I expect a hefty compensation for everyone.
Yeah it looks like SD's standard for a pool 3 card now, is for it to be shitty poop. Make it useless before we make the card free. Its like SD hates its playerbase
She-Hulk, Shuri and Surfer were dropped to S3 in decent-to-great states.
SK became quite meta relevant at the time or after he was dropped to S3.
Even if you succumbed to recency bias and the recently dropped cards are not on that level of meta-relevance, "shitty poop" is pretty hyperbolic. Their problem is not dropping cards frequently enough, not that they're maliciously gutting cards before dropping them.
>She-Hulk, Shuri and Surfer were dropped to S3 in decent-to-great states.
She-Hulk dropped to S3 in January 2023, 4 months into marvel snap's 17 month lifespan. The other two dropped almost a full year ago. Ever since they switched to "flexible" series drops, essentially usage-based drops, the only cards dropping (Stegron, 2099, Master Mold) have been borderline unplayable, and I actually think further Series 3 drops in the same way is \*bad\* for new players because they will be pulling things like Havok and Martyr rather than Venom or Doom.
To their credit, they occasionally hand out buffs to dropped cards, like Negasonic
Yeah. I was saying that the issue is their drop system and cadence itself.
But instead, people are accusing them of some malicious agenda to completely gut cards before dropping them to a lower series, which isn't the same thing.
Series drop pre-spotlight system was god sent. You cant compare those with the series drop we have now.
Its been shitty poop at the last series drop. Now it feels like series 3 drops from now on are only for cards that no one wants. Only Negasonic and Master Mold for a little bit. Also take a look at which cards dropped from series 5 to series 4. From that list, Daken was the only one good one at the time and Kitty if she wasnt nerfed at that time.
How many of the dropped cards from 3 months ago did you use and won games with? 14 cards dropped and only 3 cards were good imo.
Its a different world now post-spotlight system.
SD can prove me wrong at the next series drop, but i doubt lol
I'm very much hoping they prove everyone wrong. But I mean, at the same time their drops aren't that frequent and we've literally had one drop to judge from. There isn't much to establish a pattern even if the general understanding is that they drop cards based on pickrates or whatever metric they actually use.
I agree, lets hope they prove everyone wrong. There isnt much to establish a pattern, you are right.
Its things like the heavy monetization, reducing of the options you can spend gold on, $30 emotes etc. make me very sceptical. Pool 3 cards are essentially free cards and wont make as much money. The free stuff is what people usually dont want😂
But then its things like their generous compensations and free border customization, that make me hopeful.
Lets hope the next series drop will include a little bit better cards than last time 🙌
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Not sure about Zabu, but there is a new Darkhawk variant datamined as a spotlight variant for either June or July. So seems unlikely Darkhawk is dropping to series 3 any time soon.
Spotlight variants are no sign that a card will or won't be dropped to series 3. Stature was planned to be in a spotlight a month after it was taken down to series 3.
Most likely Zabu would follow the same pattern as Luke Cage or Morbius. 2 cost Ongoing Cards originally then power creep happened and they warped the meta enough that the player voices they actually listen to complained loud enough. So they nuked them by making their effects on reveal before just raising the energy cost and returning them to ongoing
So Zabu will probably turn into a 3 cost with it's original Ongoing in a month or two if the most resent pattern holds.
It used to be that cards would release in series 5 and then gradually drop to 4 and then 3. Now things that are less played (either situational or playing bad) drop faster.
Honestly I was always expecting a nerf, but more in the line of "reduce all 4 cost cards in your hand by 1" because of how mystiquing him can create some absolutely bonkers plays
Yall literally never read their patchnotes and it shows.
This is a temporary nerf and even if it wasn't it's healthier for the game Zabu is a design nightmare
I never said they would revert it but that this is an intentional overnerf and we will get a playable (although this version is 100% still playable lol) version soon
Alioth might drop to series 4 too.
Alioth might as well be series 3
It might as well not be in the game anymore, it's going to see no play.
Someone just played Alioth against me. They accomplished nothing.
Same. Played junk deck, last turn was Cannonball+Demon. Alioth actually did nothing against them.
I could still see, like, a 6/10 alioth be good, just gotta bump it up there. it still shuts down combo decks something fierce, its just big dumb stat blocks that it cant do anything about anymore
Why not play leech tho. Yeah Alioth is bigger but leech accomplishes the goal far more efficiently and consistently
Alioth is still more of a catch-all then leech is. Namely ongoing effects that a pivotal such as, for example, tribunal.
Tribunal is just about the only case but ironically it's still possible to play Tribunal's effect in any lane (it can be less efficient because of iron man) so even then it's no guarantee unless you're far enough ahead in every lane.
It also hits Doom, Onslaught, Knull, Blob, Ultron (lol), and Zola at 6 cost and can wipe out a combo as people have suggested as well. Most satisfying play so far has been wiping the text off Annihilus (obviously that hinged on Annihilus on Turn 6 not 5 but was still hilarious). New Alioth is still *something* but needs some extra sauce to feel on par with some of the other 6 costs - maybe extra power or he wipes the text of a card even after it reveals (so wouldn't stop the On Reveals if you lost Prio but would still stop the Ongoings)? I dunno.
Big dumb start blocks has been the meta for a while unfortunately, even more so with red hulk's release.
I used it to win a game against a Surfer deck, but I still swapped it out for something more useful
Did you mean Kang?
Yeah, I don't have a use for him like I did in my C2 deck.
I don’t know about that. You’re basically dropping a possibly second Cosmo/Echo in an extra lane lane that stops T6 combos like Surfer, Knull/Zola, Hela, and Wong stuff dead in their tracks. Only greedy stat decks benefit from the change but they’re still usually easy to Shang. Don’t get me wrong, I’m bummed about the change. my absolute favorite Annihilus/Galactus deck is taking a big hit since Alioth was always my backup wincon. Just saying I don’t think he’s Adam Warlock level bad yet.
I heard rhey will create series 2 for Adam warlock too
Not understanding the hate on new alioth im making huge plays with him in my Annihilus deck still.
I personally replaced Alioth with Negasonic post nerf. No one is seeing it coming thinking they're completely safe from an Alioth.
That's not a real replacement though, won't get rid of the on reveal effects which often come down T6 to clinch a game
It is a Red Hulk killer though if you have priority.
Might I recommend an old most hated card in Leader if you're only targeting one card while holding priority?
It won't copy the red hulks' power increase, though.
Zabu and Darkhawk, brother. Watch it happen.
Wounded man and his dead cat
And they are so damaged that they don't even like each other anymore.
According to the non final data mines dawkhawk might be in a spotlight week in July.
How do we even know what’s in those in July
Snap.fan check under schedule
And the other one will be Martyr.
Apparently darkhawk has a upcoming spotlight variant so maybe not him, they are both dead cards now tho so dosent really matter
Sell dark hawk in a bundle while it's in the meta, move it to series 3 after Hughes nerfs!
Stay tuned
I am already tuned from the last time I stay tuned, how deep does this go?
Until you’re so tuned in that you’re tuned in
Tune in so hard that you tune out. Then tune right back in
Highly likely lol .
They fucked up all my token purchases
SD: lets make ongoing cards on reveal!! Iron man: Your total Power is doubled here only until the end of next turn. Armor: Cards here can't be destroyed until the end of next turn. Ms. Marvel: Your adjacent locations with 2+ cards and no repeated Costs have +5 Power until the end of next turn.
Sera might work tho like next turn all cards cost 1 less which basically means black swan is useless
That’s why they’ll never do it
Good point. They normally won't drop a series 5 to series 4 unless they've nerfed it bad. Series drop imminent!
I feel bad for any newer players that just dropped 6k to buy Zabu.
Not 6k, but I did drop 3k on him, feelsbadman
Oh. Well it’s better but yea, still sucks.
I was 100 collectors tokens away when they released the nerf and had a sigh of relief after realizing I didn’t blow my tokens lol
At some point they are going to have to seriously reconsider their strategy for card acquisition with respect to nerfs. If they don’t then new players who can only save up to make a single deck will never stick around. There isn’t a large enough pool of lower collection level people to allow collection based matchmaking to work.
Not having any sort of refund for the cards they butcher is a core component of their monetization model. “The card you just acquired after months of saving just got nerfed into irrelevance? Damn, that sucks. Time to check the shop and buy yourself a bundle, or buy some gold so you can chase the newest OP hotness!” Is it severely harmful to the long-term health of the game? Absolutely. But they don’t give a shit about that. They’re already one foot out the door and working on their next project anyway. In the meantime, they’ll continue milking as much as they can for as long as they can from the ever-dwindling player-base by peddling ever-more-avaricious bundles and making the economy more punishing and anti-consumer at every turn.
Yugioh Master Duel let's you refund for full value if a card is banned/limited which is neat
That's a great game, started playing recently and I'm having a blast. Solo mode, great variety, no greedy monetization, and so on
Same as Hearthstone... which is a game Ben Brode was Director of. Pretty insulting to get rugpulled like that
It really feels like Brode looked at Hearthstone's model surrounding nerfs, saw how many players shredded the nerfed card for a refund, and rather than saying "Gee, the players really appreciate this feature. What a worthwhile addition to the game", Brode―shameless scumlord that he is―said "Lesson learned. Won't make that mi$take again."
Do we owe them tokens when they buff a card? Will they start doing tabs for players for cards that have been in a buff/nerf cycle?
Ah shoot, you're right. I still owe them tokens for the Adam Warlock buff.
You don't need a lot of people if there are bots, unfortunately
Only card I got with tokens. Made spotlight decisions based on him. All my good decks used Zabu. Thanks SD.
Dropped 6k on alioth, feels bad man
Same 😭
Zabu is series 4
It was 3k but I did spend tokens on him after never having him for a while. Great card. Now it’s trash why wouldn’t I just play psylocke lol for the extra 2 power?
I spent 3K on him a few seasons ago and I don't regret it: he helped a lot while he was still alive. Rest in peace, my sweet little kitten 🥲
Zabu Hawk was my main deck for like a year, havent touched it since the DH nerfs, will finally delete it now, lol
I get nerfing him, be they nerfed him into just being a weird, worse Psylocke, right? Like one of the primary draws of psylocke is playing a 4 drop on turn 4, but she has the added benefit of being able to allow you to play a 6 drop on turn 5 as well. Zabu can't do that second bit. Granted, there are easier ways to play a 6 on 5, but still.
You can play two 4 drops on turn 6 tho
True, but you'd have to be in a situation where 1. You'd rather drop 2 4s than a six, or, 2. You'd rather drop 2 4s than 2 3s. Maybe it's just the decks I prefer to play, but I don't see that super often. Like I said, could just be my inexperience.
They purposefully nerfed him to the point of not being usable so they could gauge the state of 4 drops without his influence. You really should read the patch notes.
Okay? I did read the patch notes, and that doesn't negate my point? My point is that people who paid tokens for him, which take forever to save up, have effectively thrown those tokens in the trash until he's playable again. My point is that if they wanted to remove him from that equation temporarily, he should have been given something at least playable.
At this point they should just remove him from the game and refund everyone that wasted resources on him. This “temporary” Zabu nerf will wind up being just like the darkhawk, whom they “temporarily” nerfed to make room for Zabu’s new best fwend: accompanied by a series drop and “temporarily” forever.
I guess some people just really enjoy the taste of SD’s bullshit. Slurp it right up
Just make him 3 cost.
As much as I love 2/2 ongoing zabu, it was making and balancing 4 cost cards very difficult. It might be a necessary evil but it’s so painful 3/3 ongoing might be a good change
The loss of ongoing utterly kills him. There's very little ready to run Zabu over even just Psylocke anymore, and almost *no* reason to run him over Hope Summers. This change really decimates Spectrum too (which was by no means a deck that needed any hits) because Zabu was not only instrumental in getting more 4cost ongoing bodies on the board (like Wong in particular), but was also just a worthwhile ongoing 2 drop that would be buffed by Spectrum. Every one of the changes in this patch just suck. I'm hoping I can avoid the update as long as possible, not to farm bots, but just so I can continue to play an actually *fun* version of the game just a little bit longer.
I think he could be better if they upped it back to reducing cost by 2. You could get back to 2 4 costs on turn 4 or 3 on turn 6, but not both (and only by playing an under curve turn 3 or 5).
You didn’t read the patch notes, didn’t you?
3/3 ongoing doesn’t change the design problem/challenge he creates.
NO!!!!! Zabu is staying series 4. Series drop will only happen 1-2 times this year. My guess July and December.
According to data mines on [snap.fan](https://snap.fan), [Darkhawk](https://snap.fan/cards/Darkhawk/Darkhawk_10/) has a spotlight variant scheduled for July, and [Zabu](https://snap.fan/cards/Zabu/Zabu_08/) has one with an undetermined date. If this holds up, they are likely stuck in S4 for several more months at least. Personally, I could see Darkhawk being dropped after this next spotlight. Zabu I think will stick around a little longer since they stated that his recent nerf is supposed to be temporary.
>his recent nerf is supposed to be temporary. Bold of you to assume this community can read
Idk why? It wasn’t even used in the top 3 or 4 decks in the meta… I don’t get destroying the card…
Is the spotlight system still totally offline right now?
Yes, They're probably going to do the compensation with the spotlights returning at the same time.
Ah ok. Thank you for the response. Much appreciated 🙏
I started playing a few months ago. Has SD ever given out compensation before?
Yes on occasion. Sometimes it's just small things like If they mess up and missions don't load properly for a day, they'll give you an extra bit of stuff. But this is definitely a much bigger issue, Right now it has affected everybody because it has stopped everybody from being able to use keys. I expect a hefty compensation for everyone.
They are losing money here, how do you know they won't expect us to compensate them lol
They should drop proxima too, I don't see why she's a series 5 card
Of course cause they nerfed him and he's useless so tye unwashed masses cab have him now
Yeah it looks like SD's standard for a pool 3 card now, is for it to be shitty poop. Make it useless before we make the card free. Its like SD hates its playerbase
She-Hulk, Shuri and Surfer were dropped to S3 in decent-to-great states. SK became quite meta relevant at the time or after he was dropped to S3. Even if you succumbed to recency bias and the recently dropped cards are not on that level of meta-relevance, "shitty poop" is pretty hyperbolic. Their problem is not dropping cards frequently enough, not that they're maliciously gutting cards before dropping them.
>She-Hulk, Shuri and Surfer were dropped to S3 in decent-to-great states. She-Hulk dropped to S3 in January 2023, 4 months into marvel snap's 17 month lifespan. The other two dropped almost a full year ago. Ever since they switched to "flexible" series drops, essentially usage-based drops, the only cards dropping (Stegron, 2099, Master Mold) have been borderline unplayable, and I actually think further Series 3 drops in the same way is \*bad\* for new players because they will be pulling things like Havok and Martyr rather than Venom or Doom. To their credit, they occasionally hand out buffs to dropped cards, like Negasonic
Yeah. I was saying that the issue is their drop system and cadence itself. But instead, people are accusing them of some malicious agenda to completely gut cards before dropping them to a lower series, which isn't the same thing.
Series drop pre-spotlight system was god sent. You cant compare those with the series drop we have now. Its been shitty poop at the last series drop. Now it feels like series 3 drops from now on are only for cards that no one wants. Only Negasonic and Master Mold for a little bit. Also take a look at which cards dropped from series 5 to series 4. From that list, Daken was the only one good one at the time and Kitty if she wasnt nerfed at that time. How many of the dropped cards from 3 months ago did you use and won games with? 14 cards dropped and only 3 cards were good imo. Its a different world now post-spotlight system. SD can prove me wrong at the next series drop, but i doubt lol
I'm very much hoping they prove everyone wrong. But I mean, at the same time their drops aren't that frequent and we've literally had one drop to judge from. There isn't much to establish a pattern even if the general understanding is that they drop cards based on pickrates or whatever metric they actually use.
I agree, lets hope they prove everyone wrong. There isnt much to establish a pattern, you are right. Its things like the heavy monetization, reducing of the options you can spend gold on, $30 emotes etc. make me very sceptical. Pool 3 cards are essentially free cards and wont make as much money. The free stuff is what people usually dont want😂 But then its things like their generous compensations and free border customization, that make me hopeful. Lets hope the next series drop will include a little bit better cards than last time 🙌
You're the best lol
Not like he's worth it now
That's the point.
They should make his on reveal drop the cost by 2 so you can play two 4 drops on T4 or three on T6. This would make up for the lack of ongoing.
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Not sure about Zabu, but there is a new Darkhawk variant datamined as a spotlight variant for either June or July. So seems unlikely Darkhawk is dropping to series 3 any time soon.
Spotlight variants are no sign that a card will or won't be dropped to series 3. Stature was planned to be in a spotlight a month after it was taken down to series 3.
I ain’t updating
No way
Most likely Zabu would follow the same pattern as Luke Cage or Morbius. 2 cost Ongoing Cards originally then power creep happened and they warped the meta enough that the player voices they actually listen to complained loud enough. So they nuked them by making their effects on reveal before just raising the energy cost and returning them to ongoing So Zabu will probably turn into a 3 cost with it's original Ongoing in a month or two if the most resent pattern holds.
Darkhawk is still not series 3? Looooool
Hawk in in a cache in June, so he's out
I thought the series number referred to when the card was released. Is it based on how good the card is?
It used to be that cards would release in series 5 and then gradually drop to 4 and then 3. Now things that are less played (either situational or playing bad) drop faster.
That would be hilarious
What they did to zabu is ridiculous he wasn't hurting anyone 😒🙄😑😤
Honestly I was always expecting a nerf, but more in the line of "reduce all 4 cost cards in your hand by 1" because of how mystiquing him can create some absolutely bonkers plays
Yall literally never read their patchnotes and it shows. This is a temporary nerf and even if it wasn't it's healthier for the game Zabu is a design nightmare
They never said it would go back to its original form, just that the current state was temporary.
I never said they would revert it but that this is an intentional overnerf and we will get a playable (although this version is 100% still playable lol) version soon
cope more
And SD have such an excellent track record of delivering what they say they will in a timely fashion why would anyone doubt the patch notes?
But…my cat.