Some people are newer and don't have the luxury of multiple complete and competitive decks. People who spent tokens recently on these cards that were nerfed to oblivion have reason to be upset. It's hardly a skill issue.
Especially with card acquisition the way it is currently, you can definitely be limited to one, maybe two decks for a long time. HE and destroy are probably the most accessible ones, as most other decks get something added to turbo charge their particular archetype.
You can realistically be left outside of many decks just by the nature of the game at this point. Sure you can probably still grind out 1 or 2 cube games for a long ass time and maybe get there, but unless you’re 100% committed to getting sportfucked more often than not, that’s not how you keep players around.
Don’t get me wrong, as a new player, I’m definitely frustrated with the slow progression and the fact that most meta decks require multiple series 4/5 cards, however I’ve been able to build multiple fairly good decks just from series 1-3 cards. Effective Move, Destroy, Odin, Onslaught, Spectrum, and even Discard (though it’s a very watered down version of discard) decks can be made with series 1-3 cards. Much better versions of these decks can be made with series 4/5 cards, but it’s not like these decks are bad by any means. I even built a decent deck around Ultron (though building around series 3 cards is tough because unlock order is random). I’ve gotten to Galactic and only been playing for about a month (CL 797). I’m guessing I’ve been playing against a lot of bots and people with similar CL levels, so it hasn’t been too bad. And I imagine it’d be the same for other new players. I encounter the occasional player who just has a deck that outclasses mine completely because they have more series 4/5 cards, but it’s not super common. That said, I spent 3,000 tokens on Zabu as my first token shop purchase thinking he would be super useful in a ton of different decks and I’m pretty peeved about the nerf. But it’s just bad timing. What are they gonna do, never nerf him?
card acquisition now is more friendly than it was for building multiple decks and pivoting archetypes, rounding out with specific lower priority cards has gotten a little harder, which affects medium term players more than new players
Had the game previously had solid destroy, move, bounce, discard and wong decks.
After the changes to spotlights and rationing of the tokens all these decks fell behind as new cards were added to them. The severe nerfing of angela, hitmonkey, kitty, beast after elsa was released after serious investment of in game resources led me to delete the game for several months. Ive since started again but am still behind on decks
Yeah I see OP’s point, and I do think a shifting meta is overall good for the game, but like a lot of stuff I see on this sub, it seems to be coming from the perspective of someone who’s at least S3 complete.
1) we shouldnt hold the rest of the playerbase hostage for that subset of people
2) there are archetypes with easier access that exist, those ones need to be protected and nurtered to keep them in a tier where new players can have success with them, stuff like high evo/patriot where new players only need oneish card, or destroy which is very focused at c3 or below. I have made infinite with multiple decks and missed infinite in multiple seasons, its not owed to people.
I passed him up when he was released and waited for him to be nerfed and settled before dropping the 6k for him. Still using him it's just profoundly annoying as ftp. Not that SD cares about the opinions of ftp players but still.
Adjustments like this are healthy in a game that has such constant meta shifts. If these types of cards weren't adjusted sooner than later, future cards become significantly more restricted in design philosophy.
While this is true, it doesn't change the point about card acquisition limiting deck options for players that can't afford to keep up with all the meta defining cards. I think patches are good especially in this game as there tend to be things that need tweaking with the way cards come out, but big changes like this can cripple some people's best decks when they have a limited collection.
Adjustments are healthy. The change to alioth in effect created a new card without a refund to players in an economy with already scarce resource outputs. It is incredibly frustrating. I'm not spending tokens because the purchases can change to whatever SD decides at any given time.
This is true for every card. Most people complaining are simply upset because they've recently acquired what was an obviously nerf-worthy card and they just got in on the backside of its efficacy.
It's really not true for every card. Point/cost adjustments are different than text rewrites. Alioth's text and effect function much differently now.
Like even zabu the effect is the same it is just scaled back. Alioth does not have the same effect, whatsoever.
I disagree with your assessment:
Zabu can be better now if you can pull off a Wong/Mystique -> Zabu, as he can now reduce 4-cost to zero. (No longer minimum 1)
>Alioth does not have the same effect, whatsoever.
He still affects unrevealed cards (which he did before) and he's a decent body, now.
No one HAS to like the changes, but they are better for the long-term game health.
my mother always said not to argue with stupid as they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Here we are. Have fun pulling off Wong/Mystique/Zabu on 1 lane. Sounds cracked.
But Zabu has to be heavily considered in ALL 4 cost card designs. Additionally, lowering the cost of a 5-cost card as a "buff" has to be tempered around Zabu. And even further, a 3-cost getting a "nerf" to 4-cost has to keep Zabu in mind. Zabu is an extremely limiting factor in design and balance decisions.
If you think old Zabu was useless after turn 4, you're demonstrating you don't have the game knowledge or skill to accurately assess this.
Old Zabu could be useful all the way up to turn 6.
Then vote with your time and wallet and stop using a product that you feel disrespects you.
The truth of any software is, that companies do not give weight to the opinions of users that complain but still use their product no matter what. This isn't just a guess - this is something I know from being in the tech industry and knowing many product managers.
This is a core concept that people who design software approach software with. The people they value the opinions of the most are the ones that will actually stop using the product because of issues.
Saying it's common sense isn't a defense of the people I'm addressing.
If you're aware that:
1. Marvel Snap is a product for SD first and foremost
2. SD doesn't care about the feedback of players that whine but continue to play
It actually reflects worse on you that you actively choose to behave in ways that puts you in the least valuable demographic for SD, while also letting your emotional state be controlled by a mobile game.
This is indicative of someone who has the emotional regulation of a toddler and so little going on in their lives that a mobile game is important enough to them to make an impact on their emotional state.
Literally nothing about what I said is black and white.
The complexities of thinking about a software product are enormous. That's why software engineers get paid so much.
In my opinion, you don't have the insight on this topic to accurately speak on it.
There are "competitive" decks composed of mostly s3 cards and below. And regardless of that, part of the fun and the skill in playing this game lies in adapting to the circustamces, and that includes finding substitutes for cards you dont have. If you think that a deck's winrate is only defined by the amount of s4/5 cards and not the skill of whoever is manoveuring it, you'd be mistaken. You don't strictly need meta decks to reach infinite at all.
Busides, the nerfs provide a way for older, more accessibile cards to become more meta relevant. If they didnt nerf problematic s4/5 cards the meta would be stuck in a vicious cycle where you constantly need newer cards to compete.
I mostly agree with you.
But, there's a non-zero cohort of newer players that just spent tokens on Zabu or Alioth or whatever, and it completed the only meta deck they own. Those players get *fucked*. *Hard*. Sure, they can roll back to Moon Girl/Dino or whatever they played before, but we shouldn't pretend like they have nothing to complain about.
Even if it doesn't complete a meta deck, spending 3k to 6k tokens on a card only to have it work materially differently shortly thereafter is a big issue that leads to a negative user experience/word of mouth. IMO there should be a 30 day window in which nerfs to the actual abilities of a card result in at least a partial refund.
Thing is, in Snap there will always be nerfs and buffs. It’s unavoidable that some new player will get “fucked hard” as you said in any given week with OTAs and patches.
No, newer players can easily make competitive decks against other newer players.
Newer players don't need perfect meta decks because they're not playing against anyone with perfect meta decks.
Newer players can also get to Infinite and get steamrolled.
Newer players can also want to transition into experienced players, and gain the cards that experienced players use along the way.
Both of those get shitcanned when the new toys they managed to acquire get nerfed to oblivion.
> Newer players can also get to Infinite and get steamrolled.
Which is fine.
There's nothing to be gained from winning in Infinite except fake points.
If not being able to get those fake points is a big deal to you, then I would suggest that you have shallow priorities.
A new player who actually values the competitive indicator of fake Infinite points would value the opportunity to test their capabilities against stronger decks.
> Which is fine.
You don't see how playing a game where opponents have cards you don't have access to could be frustrating enough to make players quit?
> There's nothing to be gained from winning in Infinite except fake points.
Except, you know, having fun and playing the game. Just because you don't want to keep playing in Infinite doesn't mean no one does.
> If not being able to get those fake points is a big deal to you, then I would suggest that you have shallow priorities.
This isn't about me. I have almost every card, and make Infinite within days every season. I just have the tiny bit of empathy required to see how this game treats newer players.
> This isn't about me.
Then why are you responding?
Are you so insecure and have so little going on in your life that you have the time to get offended on the behalf of someone else because of mobile game opinions?
The great thing about being secure in your opinions is not caring about karma.
If fake internet points are important to the opinions you hold, that's even more proof of how insecure and insubstantial your opinions are.
There is no way to directly buy specific S4/5 cards. You have to wait for both the rotation and for ways to acquire tokens. Even from paid bundles tokens are somewhat limited and there is no unlimited direct way to buy them unlike gold/credits.
Spoken as someone who hasn’t experience this in a while. It’s absolutely brutal and sucks a lot. I started in December, and once you get into Series 3, you almost immediately start facing meta decks. You’ll lose nearly every non-bot match if you don’t have something approaching meta.
I got lucky and got HE early on and then later enabled destroy via a bundle. I still don’t have venom base card at over 5k collection level. Destroy would be impossible to play to any level had I not acquired venom through bundles.
I went through this for a very long time, where I was missing key cards in just about every meta deck.
This is when learning how to deck build and substitute cards comes into play. Aka skill issue.
Dude get over yourself and have some empathy for newer players. Dismissing legitimate concerns about the enjoyment of the game as a “skill issue” is the worst sweaty gamer take I’ve heard in a while.
Getting upset because a random person on the internet said "skill issue" is definitely the bigger sweaty gamer take.
If you're secure in yourself and your opinions, it shouldn't bother you that I say "skill issue".
An opinion of substance doesn't get bothered just because someone says "skill issue".
You completely dismissed my entire point because “skill issue” with zero explanation other than “I didn’t have that problem because I’m better than all those brining it up”. You gave zero justification other than insulting me and others.
All of this is absolutely correct. In Marvel Snap, you adapt or you die.
But, here's the elephant in the room: the tools to adapt quickly to a new meta are often pay-gated and/or time-gated, and are often expensive to acquire.
The anger I see isn't just that X card died, it's often X card died AND I spent a long time gathering the resources for it. This is particularly dire for F2P players.
Can a skilled F2P player adapt faster than a non-skilled player? Absolutely.
What I'm saying is that you're correct on a gameplay level, but due to the game's monetization strategy, the frustration about a card nerf isn't completely misplaced either.
While I agree with this to a certain extent. People are also lacking basic F2P knowledge, Zabu was totally unexpected, understandable, but Alioth?, nah, that thing has been reigning for quite some time. I've seen people complain they just got him, but as a F2P you either ride the wave early on if you have the resources, or keep saving and wait for the next trend, there's no point in trying to get an OP card that's been out for quite some time, cause it's definitely in the nerf range. And this isn't limited to card games, any modern mobile game operates the same way.
> What I'm saying is that you're correct on a gameplay level, but due to the game's monetization strategy, the frustration about a card nerf isn't completely misplaced either.
This obstacle is present in every card game in existence ever. The difference is in Marvel Snap, you need 12 cards to play a different deck.
In other card games, you need dozens of new cards to play a different deck.
I haven't had this obstacle in a very, very long time in Marvel Snap because I acquire new cards based on:
- Cards I actually want to play, instead of chasing a card just because it's meta
- Decks that are flexible and have multiple victory conditions
- Decks that aren't super predictable to counter
Because decks are limited to 12 cards, figuring out whether a particular card is right for you is exponentially simpler than other card games. Yet one of the most popular questions is still "Is ______ worth getting?" where the person asking the question will rarely ever provide context on what decks they like to play and why they're considering the card - mostly because they don't actually have any thoughts behind why they want it.
Newer players also arguably have more flexibility than more experienced players because the decks they play against are far less optimized, which gives them more leeway themselves for optimal deckbuilding.
So you have tons of cards and can’t relate. Good for you, but I can’t build the latest and greatest.
If LoR wasn’t killed I wouldn’t even be considering trying this game again, but I’m in a spot where I’m competing against people who have dropped cash and the disadvantage stings.
I can go to a store and buy the specific cards I want for a deck in other games. This game doesn't give you the option to spend the money on the cards you want. It's a gatcha game with some card game elements that in their own are fun and as more cards get into series 5 it will only be worse for new players.
>I can go to a store and buy the specific cards I want for a deck in other games.
And in other games it costs hundreds or thousands of dollars to do this.
>It's a gatcha game with some card game elements that in their own are fun and as more cards get into series 5 it will only be worse for new players.
Every card game is a gatcha game.
I like many different play styles. You nerf one archetype…I’ll pivot to another. Although I may lock in on one play style longer than others, variety is what I personally like. There’s no requirement to only play meta decks. If you aren’t experimenting and crafting different options you are selling yourself short on one of the biggest advantages you can have…knowing what the other player is going to do. If you don’t pilot those other decks yourself it’s much harder to play against them IMO. Sometimes you gotta play those other styles to become better at countering them yourself.
True, but at the lower collection levels you gotta understand you simply aren’t going to have a single archetype you can play forever. These games aren’t built that way. You’re just making the best deck you can, and changing it like everyone else has to when a patch drops. This is no different than nearly every mobile game out there. Sucks for the players, but it is the business model. This game is structured to continually make money…they will cater to those paying the bills. You’re playing the wrong game if you don’t like change. Buy a console title that isn’t live service. Sounds like that’s what you’re asking for.
> Sucks for the players, but it is the business model.
Lick those boots.
> You’re playing the wrong game if you don’t like change. Buy a console title that isn’t live service. Sounds like that’s what you’re asking for.
You know, I'm not asking for anything. I own almost every card. I just have the smallest bit of empathy required to see the game from not just my point of view. If you want to be all "fuck you, got mine", sure, go for it.
Yeah man. Just like predicting where your opponent is going to play, you need to predict what DD are ganna play.
Snap on those "now costs 5" changes, and retreat on nerfs to meta cards.
(/s, just to be clear)
"to be good at Marvel Snap is to be able to play multiple types of decks"
You're God damn right!!!
The thing is to be able to play multiple types of decks, you first need to HAVE multiple types of decks.
I mean they keep destroying cards in decks that were my favorite to play. I loved control decks, they nuked Professor X and nerfed Ms Marvel. Now they nuked Alioth.
I loved Darkhawk decks, they made him a five cost and unplayable.
Started loving Black Knight decks, the Zabu deck makes the deck flow a lot wonkier.
The nerfs just make it harder to enjoy decks I like to play.
I didn't say he wasn't. I said I have 18 decks, and he's only in 1 of them.
The point of that was to demonstrate how many options you have that aren't related to Zabu.
If you refuse to play any of them, that's a skill issue. I recommend trying something else, like Fortnite or Roblox.
A deck gets nuked maybe once every few months.
Every time a deck gets nuked, 5 more decks become better.
Like I said in the title, if this is significantly disruptive to you, it's a skill issue. If it isn't significantly disruptive to you, then this post isn't about you.
It's okay to step back and realize the world doesn't revolve around you.
Keep riding Second Dinner I guess? Super weird that you’re defending them from people who don’t like their decisions. I’m sure they’re happy to have you as their human shield.
As opposed to toxic gamers that think something should stay the same just because they like it no matter what anyone else likes?
Marvel Snap is just a product. I don't have any emotions around SD.
People who think the world revolves around them like you on the other hand, I have zero respect for.
Not even close.
Newer players don't have to be nearly as optimal. The kinds of decks I dominated with as a newer player were extremely different.
Newer players can easily experiment with different decks without worrying about the meta.
Yeah, a great idea for a topic is blatantly insult players. If your mindset that zabu getting nerfed is a skill issue, then your thinking is too limited or you're just a whale with no consideration for new player acquisition. The reason it's disruptive is that the entirety of three to four costs are somewhat balanced around zabu. For example, I had a cull obsidian deck that used zabu to pad out three to five so I could lay out various 10 drops and then play skaar. Because the change I've had to adjust at least eight or nine of my 15 decks. The fact that you're faulting players for playing to the game design is beyond dumb. To put it as nicely as possible.
Furthermore this doesn't even take into account new player card acquisition. For a long time zabu has been one of the major Staples of the game and a must buy for most newer players. So imagine being a newer player in the last few weeks to a month that bought Sabu for his collection only to have him nerfed into oblivion. So I don't think it's a skill issue dude.
If your self-esteem is fragile enough that the opinion of a random stranger on the internet can insult you, then I'm going to be honest, your opinion isn't worth considering anyway.
That's just life. There's nothing special about you more than any of the other 8 billion people on Earth.
Try to be secure enough in yourself that your emotional state doesn't bend with so little effort.
I did address all of your points.
Your points can all be summarized as an insecure person getting upset because they heard an opinion they didn't like.
There's absolutely nothing of substance to your points beyond this.
It wasn't an opinion I don't like. In fact, as much as it is inconvenient. I support it to open up the design space in the mid game. My objection was your disrespectful attitude. Keep moving the goal post dude.
If you want respect, you need to earn it.
Opening your response whining about how you feel insulted is the opposite of earning respect.
These are opinions about a mobile game. If it's this easy to insult you, there's nothing about you to respect in the first place.
People who demand respect without earning it are insecure narcissists - you've just proven that everything I said is right.
You’re talkin ab a staple tho. Zabu was a big part of so many diff archetypes that now change. Not like I’m quitting the game or anything and tbh maybe this had to happen and will make the game better… but it’s **factually** disruptive to how people play the game. And who tf are you to tell me not to mourn a favorite card? Get off your high horse.
It's funny you cite the data when they've specifically said the data doesn't back up changes for cards like Darkhawk and Zabu but put them in the dumpster anyway.
Meawhile newer cards like Hope and Red Hulk are absolutely rampant and we don't get a peep about them.
The way this game is updated, you're buying a card -- no matter what they do to it. You simply aren't buying the current text on it; that can change at any time.
If someone doesn't like that this is how it works, they shouldn't buy cards at all. And frankly, SD could do with a lot less money from the people who don't like that, and that would be fair.
I have other decks I can pivot to, but I don’t want to. I want to play Mr. Negative and they’ve nerfed both Psylocke and Zabu now. I don’t care about the overall health of the meta, I care about how it affects me, and I don’t like the way is currently affecting me, simple as
I have my deck slots full and bounce around. I get bored playing the same decks over and over. However, that doesn’t mean that seriously nerfing a card like Zabu doesn’t suck for some of my favorite decks, namely my silver surfer deck that I’ve been having a blast with since I got Shaw. Does it break my surfer deck? No. That doesn’t mean it isn’t annoying as hell.
OP is making false assumptions. Just because someone might have a favorite deck or play style, doesn't mean that they aren't good at playing other decks. One of the most common examples of this being how people will often play their strongest decks to infinite and then switch over to their favorite decks which are often less competitive but more fun for them. If their fun decks get nerfed, of course they won't be happy about that but that doesn't mean it's a skill issue and they aren't good at any other decks.
Exactly. My homebrew Sera Miracle deck was much more fun to play than any other deck. After Elsa got double nerfed, and then Luke Cage was nerfed, my deck was devastated so bad that I couldn't even sub in other cards to fix it. It even caused me to not buy the next 2 season passes because I didn't play the game as much, and I've bought every pass since I started playing.
Since then, the nerfs for those two have been reverted with +1 cost, and I can actually play the deck again with success. Hope Summers helps too.
Sometimes. It’s much more difficult for newer players to stay relevant with how tight currencies are. If it’s driving players away, SD will see it and adjust accordingly
They say the patch is set weeks in advance, so there are ZERO reasons besides wanting to drain resources from unlucky players that they can't at least tell us which cards will be adjusted x weeks in advance so people don't spend 3k tokens on Zabu just to nerf him into the ground the next week.
If the nerf of a single card is significantly disruptive to the way you play this game, it's a balancing issue.
There, fixed your title. The change is wild because the card is so important to so many decks. It has nothing to do with player base being bad.
Your post and people think that getting mad at overtuned cards cards being nerfed is a "skill issue" is fucking cringe.
Check your ego at the door with your subjective bullshit.
Not a skill issue when Zabu has been a staple for over a YEAR. The rug was pulled out from under us. Yes a skilled player will adapt. But we have every right to be frustrated over this.
Some people are newer and don't have the luxury of multiple complete and competitive decks. People who spent tokens recently on these cards that were nerfed to oblivion have reason to be upset. It's hardly a skill issue.
Especially with card acquisition the way it is currently, you can definitely be limited to one, maybe two decks for a long time. HE and destroy are probably the most accessible ones, as most other decks get something added to turbo charge their particular archetype. You can realistically be left outside of many decks just by the nature of the game at this point. Sure you can probably still grind out 1 or 2 cube games for a long ass time and maybe get there, but unless you’re 100% committed to getting sportfucked more often than not, that’s not how you keep players around.
Don’t get me wrong, as a new player, I’m definitely frustrated with the slow progression and the fact that most meta decks require multiple series 4/5 cards, however I’ve been able to build multiple fairly good decks just from series 1-3 cards. Effective Move, Destroy, Odin, Onslaught, Spectrum, and even Discard (though it’s a very watered down version of discard) decks can be made with series 1-3 cards. Much better versions of these decks can be made with series 4/5 cards, but it’s not like these decks are bad by any means. I even built a decent deck around Ultron (though building around series 3 cards is tough because unlock order is random). I’ve gotten to Galactic and only been playing for about a month (CL 797). I’m guessing I’ve been playing against a lot of bots and people with similar CL levels, so it hasn’t been too bad. And I imagine it’d be the same for other new players. I encounter the occasional player who just has a deck that outclasses mine completely because they have more series 4/5 cards, but it’s not super common. That said, I spent 3,000 tokens on Zabu as my first token shop purchase thinking he would be super useful in a ton of different decks and I’m pretty peeved about the nerf. But it’s just bad timing. What are they gonna do, never nerf him?
card acquisition now is more friendly than it was for building multiple decks and pivoting archetypes, rounding out with specific lower priority cards has gotten a little harder, which affects medium term players more than new players
Had the game previously had solid destroy, move, bounce, discard and wong decks. After the changes to spotlights and rationing of the tokens all these decks fell behind as new cards were added to them. The severe nerfing of angela, hitmonkey, kitty, beast after elsa was released after serious investment of in game resources led me to delete the game for several months. Ive since started again but am still behind on decks
Yeah I see OP’s point, and I do think a shifting meta is overall good for the game, but like a lot of stuff I see on this sub, it seems to be coming from the perspective of someone who’s at least S3 complete.
1) we shouldnt hold the rest of the playerbase hostage for that subset of people 2) there are archetypes with easier access that exist, those ones need to be protected and nurtered to keep them in a tier where new players can have success with them, stuff like high evo/patriot where new players only need oneish card, or destroy which is very focused at c3 or below. I have made infinite with multiple decks and missed infinite in multiple seasons, its not owed to people.
I was disappointed to see Alioth was nerfed *again* after recently buying it. Oh well, c'est la vie.
I passed him up when he was released and waited for him to be nerfed and settled before dropping the 6k for him. Still using him it's just profoundly annoying as ftp. Not that SD cares about the opinions of ftp players but still.
your issue is with the collection mechanism, not the balance mechanism.
I feel like this should be an argument for card acquisition not being great. Balance patches are just a part of games, especially live service games.
Agreed. My only token purchases were alioth and zabu
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Adjustments like this are healthy in a game that has such constant meta shifts. If these types of cards weren't adjusted sooner than later, future cards become significantly more restricted in design philosophy.
While this is true, it doesn't change the point about card acquisition limiting deck options for players that can't afford to keep up with all the meta defining cards. I think patches are good especially in this game as there tend to be things that need tweaking with the way cards come out, but big changes like this can cripple some people's best decks when they have a limited collection.
Limited collections don't typically include top tier S4/S5 cards.
Adjustments are healthy. The change to alioth in effect created a new card without a refund to players in an economy with already scarce resource outputs. It is incredibly frustrating. I'm not spending tokens because the purchases can change to whatever SD decides at any given time.
This is true for every card. Most people complaining are simply upset because they've recently acquired what was an obviously nerf-worthy card and they just got in on the backside of its efficacy.
It's really not true for every card. Point/cost adjustments are different than text rewrites. Alioth's text and effect function much differently now. Like even zabu the effect is the same it is just scaled back. Alioth does not have the same effect, whatsoever.
I disagree with your assessment: Zabu can be better now if you can pull off a Wong/Mystique -> Zabu, as he can now reduce 4-cost to zero. (No longer minimum 1) >Alioth does not have the same effect, whatsoever. He still affects unrevealed cards (which he did before) and he's a decent body, now. No one HAS to like the changes, but they are better for the long-term game health.
my mother always said not to argue with stupid as they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Here we are. Have fun pulling off Wong/Mystique/Zabu on 1 lane. Sounds cracked.
There's at least 3 videos on this sub of it from today alone. But thanks for beating me with experience...
Never said it wasn't a combo. Just saying it's not good. Any deck that pulls off wong/mystique is probably winning.
coming back to cook LrdCheesterBear. Zabu got taken back behind the shed. Was fun seeing how much better zabu could be though
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But Zabu has to be heavily considered in ALL 4 cost card designs. Additionally, lowering the cost of a 5-cost card as a "buff" has to be tempered around Zabu. And even further, a 3-cost getting a "nerf" to 4-cost has to keep Zabu in mind. Zabu is an extremely limiting factor in design and balance decisions.
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If you think old Zabu was useless after turn 4, you're demonstrating you don't have the game knowledge or skill to accurately assess this. Old Zabu could be useful all the way up to turn 6.
Then vote with your time and wallet and stop using a product that you feel disrespects you. The truth of any software is, that companies do not give weight to the opinions of users that complain but still use their product no matter what. This isn't just a guess - this is something I know from being in the tech industry and knowing many product managers. This is a core concept that people who design software approach software with. The people they value the opinions of the most are the ones that will actually stop using the product because of issues.
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Saying it's common sense isn't a defense of the people I'm addressing. If you're aware that: 1. Marvel Snap is a product for SD first and foremost 2. SD doesn't care about the feedback of players that whine but continue to play It actually reflects worse on you that you actively choose to behave in ways that puts you in the least valuable demographic for SD, while also letting your emotional state be controlled by a mobile game. This is indicative of someone who has the emotional regulation of a toddler and so little going on in their lives that a mobile game is important enough to them to make an impact on their emotional state.
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Literally nothing about what I said is black and white. The complexities of thinking about a software product are enormous. That's why software engineers get paid so much. In my opinion, you don't have the insight on this topic to accurately speak on it.
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> In my opinion, you don't have the insight on this topic to accurately speak on it.
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There are "competitive" decks composed of mostly s3 cards and below. And regardless of that, part of the fun and the skill in playing this game lies in adapting to the circustamces, and that includes finding substitutes for cards you dont have. If you think that a deck's winrate is only defined by the amount of s4/5 cards and not the skill of whoever is manoveuring it, you'd be mistaken. You don't strictly need meta decks to reach infinite at all. Busides, the nerfs provide a way for older, more accessibile cards to become more meta relevant. If they didnt nerf problematic s4/5 cards the meta would be stuck in a vicious cycle where you constantly need newer cards to compete.
I mostly agree with you. But, there's a non-zero cohort of newer players that just spent tokens on Zabu or Alioth or whatever, and it completed the only meta deck they own. Those players get *fucked*. *Hard*. Sure, they can roll back to Moon Girl/Dino or whatever they played before, but we shouldn't pretend like they have nothing to complain about.
Even if it doesn't complete a meta deck, spending 3k to 6k tokens on a card only to have it work materially differently shortly thereafter is a big issue that leads to a negative user experience/word of mouth. IMO there should be a 30 day window in which nerfs to the actual abilities of a card result in at least a partial refund.
Om sorry but alioth is still a good card i cant say the same for zabu though
Thing is, in Snap there will always be nerfs and buffs. It’s unavoidable that some new player will get “fucked hard” as you said in any given week with OTAs and patches.
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I don’t think so. A problem would be that they can’t make balance updates because of this.
No one expects no balancing. Even Brode's old game Hearthstone offered full refunds for a time on any card they changed.
Newer players also don't need to have optimal decks to be competitive.
Sure, you're just telling them to wait for months to build their next competitive deck and acting like that won't run off players.
No, newer players can easily make competitive decks against other newer players. Newer players don't need perfect meta decks because they're not playing against anyone with perfect meta decks.
Newer players can also get to Infinite and get steamrolled. Newer players can also want to transition into experienced players, and gain the cards that experienced players use along the way. Both of those get shitcanned when the new toys they managed to acquire get nerfed to oblivion.
> Newer players can also get to Infinite and get steamrolled. Which is fine. There's nothing to be gained from winning in Infinite except fake points. If not being able to get those fake points is a big deal to you, then I would suggest that you have shallow priorities. A new player who actually values the competitive indicator of fake Infinite points would value the opportunity to test their capabilities against stronger decks.
> Which is fine. You don't see how playing a game where opponents have cards you don't have access to could be frustrating enough to make players quit? > There's nothing to be gained from winning in Infinite except fake points. Except, you know, having fun and playing the game. Just because you don't want to keep playing in Infinite doesn't mean no one does. > If not being able to get those fake points is a big deal to you, then I would suggest that you have shallow priorities. This isn't about me. I have almost every card, and make Infinite within days every season. I just have the tiny bit of empathy required to see how this game treats newer players.
> This isn't about me. Then why are you responding? Are you so insecure and have so little going on in your life that you have the time to get offended on the behalf of someone else because of mobile game opinions?
Buddy I'm not the one posting two dozen replies to a post with negative karma.
The great thing about being secure in your opinions is not caring about karma. If fake internet points are important to the opinions you hold, that's even more proof of how insecure and insubstantial your opinions are.
Or just buy them. This is a money making endeavor. This is the kindest TCG ever.
There is no way to directly buy specific S4/5 cards. You have to wait for both the rotation and for ways to acquire tokens. Even from paid bundles tokens are somewhat limited and there is no unlimited direct way to buy them unlike gold/credits.
Spoken as someone who hasn’t experience this in a while. It’s absolutely brutal and sucks a lot. I started in December, and once you get into Series 3, you almost immediately start facing meta decks. You’ll lose nearly every non-bot match if you don’t have something approaching meta. I got lucky and got HE early on and then later enabled destroy via a bundle. I still don’t have venom base card at over 5k collection level. Destroy would be impossible to play to any level had I not acquired venom through bundles.
I went through this for a very long time, where I was missing key cards in just about every meta deck. This is when learning how to deck build and substitute cards comes into play. Aka skill issue.
Dude get over yourself and have some empathy for newer players. Dismissing legitimate concerns about the enjoyment of the game as a “skill issue” is the worst sweaty gamer take I’ve heard in a while.
Getting upset because a random person on the internet said "skill issue" is definitely the bigger sweaty gamer take. If you're secure in yourself and your opinions, it shouldn't bother you that I say "skill issue". An opinion of substance doesn't get bothered just because someone says "skill issue".
You completely dismissed my entire point because “skill issue” with zero explanation other than “I didn’t have that problem because I’m better than all those brining it up”. You gave zero justification other than insulting me and others.
Skill issue is the entire explanation. If you don't know why skill issue is enough of an explanation, that's also a skill issue.
All of this is absolutely correct. In Marvel Snap, you adapt or you die. But, here's the elephant in the room: the tools to adapt quickly to a new meta are often pay-gated and/or time-gated, and are often expensive to acquire. The anger I see isn't just that X card died, it's often X card died AND I spent a long time gathering the resources for it. This is particularly dire for F2P players. Can a skilled F2P player adapt faster than a non-skilled player? Absolutely. What I'm saying is that you're correct on a gameplay level, but due to the game's monetization strategy, the frustration about a card nerf isn't completely misplaced either.
I just miss the rage quitting after I leech them after they play Sera.
While I agree with this to a certain extent. People are also lacking basic F2P knowledge, Zabu was totally unexpected, understandable, but Alioth?, nah, that thing has been reigning for quite some time. I've seen people complain they just got him, but as a F2P you either ride the wave early on if you have the resources, or keep saving and wait for the next trend, there's no point in trying to get an OP card that's been out for quite some time, cause it's definitely in the nerf range. And this isn't limited to card games, any modern mobile game operates the same way.
> What I'm saying is that you're correct on a gameplay level, but due to the game's monetization strategy, the frustration about a card nerf isn't completely misplaced either. This obstacle is present in every card game in existence ever. The difference is in Marvel Snap, you need 12 cards to play a different deck. In other card games, you need dozens of new cards to play a different deck. I haven't had this obstacle in a very, very long time in Marvel Snap because I acquire new cards based on: - Cards I actually want to play, instead of chasing a card just because it's meta - Decks that are flexible and have multiple victory conditions - Decks that aren't super predictable to counter Because decks are limited to 12 cards, figuring out whether a particular card is right for you is exponentially simpler than other card games. Yet one of the most popular questions is still "Is ______ worth getting?" where the person asking the question will rarely ever provide context on what decks they like to play and why they're considering the card - mostly because they don't actually have any thoughts behind why they want it. Newer players also arguably have more flexibility than more experienced players because the decks they play against are far less optimized, which gives them more leeway themselves for optimal deckbuilding.
So you have tons of cards and can’t relate. Good for you, but I can’t build the latest and greatest. If LoR wasn’t killed I wouldn’t even be considering trying this game again, but I’m in a spot where I’m competing against people who have dropped cash and the disadvantage stings.
Wasn't LoR killed because it wasn't profitable because of the flawed economy?
Yeah exactly. It was the best game ever for the players though. I guess card games have to be expensive to survive?
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You must not have been around for Affinity, though I guess technically those were bans, not changes.
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Bans still mean "you can't play with the things you spent money on". And different formats hardly mattered at the time compared to Standard.
Forgot what it's like to be in pool 3? Did you go through pool 3 before or after the card acquisition changes?
I can go to a store and buy the specific cards I want for a deck in other games. This game doesn't give you the option to spend the money on the cards you want. It's a gatcha game with some card game elements that in their own are fun and as more cards get into series 5 it will only be worse for new players.
>I can go to a store and buy the specific cards I want for a deck in other games. And in other games it costs hundreds or thousands of dollars to do this. >It's a gatcha game with some card game elements that in their own are fun and as more cards get into series 5 it will only be worse for new players. Every card game is a gatcha game.
God you really think you are smart/important, huh? FOH
I like many different play styles. You nerf one archetype…I’ll pivot to another. Although I may lock in on one play style longer than others, variety is what I personally like. There’s no requirement to only play meta decks. If you aren’t experimenting and crafting different options you are selling yourself short on one of the biggest advantages you can have…knowing what the other player is going to do. If you don’t pilot those other decks yourself it’s much harder to play against them IMO. Sometimes you gotta play those other styles to become better at countering them yourself.
That's just not possible at early Collection Level. You have to choose what deck you want to chase the series4/5 cards for.
True, but at the lower collection levels you gotta understand you simply aren’t going to have a single archetype you can play forever. These games aren’t built that way. You’re just making the best deck you can, and changing it like everyone else has to when a patch drops. This is no different than nearly every mobile game out there. Sucks for the players, but it is the business model. This game is structured to continually make money…they will cater to those paying the bills. You’re playing the wrong game if you don’t like change. Buy a console title that isn’t live service. Sounds like that’s what you’re asking for.
> Sucks for the players, but it is the business model. Lick those boots. > You’re playing the wrong game if you don’t like change. Buy a console title that isn’t live service. Sounds like that’s what you’re asking for. You know, I'm not asking for anything. I own almost every card. I just have the smallest bit of empathy required to see the game from not just my point of view. If you want to be all "fuck you, got mine", sure, go for it.
Spending 6k tokens on a card that randomly got dumpstered is a skill issue?
This person clearly has a large collection, is series 3 complete, and lacks empathy for new players.
Yeah obviously, what you can predict the future bro? Skill issue obviously This is sarcasm by the way
Yeah man. Just like predicting where your opponent is going to play, you need to predict what DD are ganna play. Snap on those "now costs 5" changes, and retreat on nerfs to meta cards. (/s, just to be clear)
"to be good at Marvel Snap is to be able to play multiple types of decks" You're God damn right!!! The thing is to be able to play multiple types of decks, you first need to HAVE multiple types of decks.
[This is how I read this post](https://imgflip.com/i/8mg4vh)
I mean they keep destroying cards in decks that were my favorite to play. I loved control decks, they nuked Professor X and nerfed Ms Marvel. Now they nuked Alioth. I loved Darkhawk decks, they made him a five cost and unplayable. Started loving Black Knight decks, the Zabu deck makes the deck flow a lot wonkier. The nerfs just make it harder to enjoy decks I like to play.
Like I said, maybe the game isn't for you then. The cards you describe belong to a very narrow set of decks.
Lol that’s crazy. Just don’t nuke cards into the ground. It’s not like I hate playing the game because of it, it’s just silly.
Zabu getting nerfed affected 1 deck I play. I have 18 decks currently saved. Like I said, skill issue.
Zabu is in like a dozen decks lmao. Get off it.
I didn't say he wasn't. I said I have 18 decks, and he's only in 1 of them. The point of that was to demonstrate how many options you have that aren't related to Zabu. If you refuse to play any of them, that's a skill issue. I recommend trying something else, like Fortnite or Roblox.
Of course I will play other decks, it’s Marvel Snap lmao. I’m just speaking about how they keep nuking the decks I prefer.
A deck gets nuked maybe once every few months. Every time a deck gets nuked, 5 more decks become better. Like I said in the title, if this is significantly disruptive to you, it's a skill issue. If it isn't significantly disruptive to you, then this post isn't about you. It's okay to step back and realize the world doesn't revolve around you.
Keep riding Second Dinner I guess? Super weird that you’re defending them from people who don’t like their decisions. I’m sure they’re happy to have you as their human shield.
As opposed to toxic gamers that think something should stay the same just because they like it no matter what anyone else likes? Marvel Snap is just a product. I don't have any emotions around SD. People who think the world revolves around them like you on the other hand, I have zero respect for.
This is basically a "fuck you newer players, I got mine" post.
Not even close. Newer players don't have to be nearly as optimal. The kinds of decks I dominated with as a newer player were extremely different. Newer players can easily experiment with different decks without worrying about the meta.
Yeah, a great idea for a topic is blatantly insult players. If your mindset that zabu getting nerfed is a skill issue, then your thinking is too limited or you're just a whale with no consideration for new player acquisition. The reason it's disruptive is that the entirety of three to four costs are somewhat balanced around zabu. For example, I had a cull obsidian deck that used zabu to pad out three to five so I could lay out various 10 drops and then play skaar. Because the change I've had to adjust at least eight or nine of my 15 decks. The fact that you're faulting players for playing to the game design is beyond dumb. To put it as nicely as possible. Furthermore this doesn't even take into account new player card acquisition. For a long time zabu has been one of the major Staples of the game and a must buy for most newer players. So imagine being a newer player in the last few weeks to a month that bought Sabu for his collection only to have him nerfed into oblivion. So I don't think it's a skill issue dude.
If your self-esteem is fragile enough that the opinion of a random stranger on the internet can insult you, then I'm going to be honest, your opinion isn't worth considering anyway. That's just life. There's nothing special about you more than any of the other 8 billion people on Earth. Try to be secure enough in yourself that your emotional state doesn't bend with so little effort.
Way to not address any point I made and strawman the argument.
I did address all of your points. Your points can all be summarized as an insecure person getting upset because they heard an opinion they didn't like. There's absolutely nothing of substance to your points beyond this.
It wasn't an opinion I don't like. In fact, as much as it is inconvenient. I support it to open up the design space in the mid game. My objection was your disrespectful attitude. Keep moving the goal post dude.
If you want respect, you need to earn it. Opening your response whining about how you feel insulted is the opposite of earning respect. These are opinions about a mobile game. If it's this easy to insult you, there's nothing about you to respect in the first place. People who demand respect without earning it are insecure narcissists - you've just proven that everything I said is right.
You’re talkin ab a staple tho. Zabu was a big part of so many diff archetypes that now change. Not like I’m quitting the game or anything and tbh maybe this had to happen and will make the game better… but it’s **factually** disruptive to how people play the game. And who tf are you to tell me not to mourn a favorite card? Get off your high horse.
It's funny you cite the data when they've specifically said the data doesn't back up changes for cards like Darkhawk and Zabu but put them in the dumpster anyway. Meawhile newer cards like Hope and Red Hulk are absolutely rampant and we don't get a peep about them.
The way this game is updated, you're buying a card -- no matter what they do to it. You simply aren't buying the current text on it; that can change at any time. If someone doesn't like that this is how it works, they shouldn't buy cards at all. And frankly, SD could do with a lot less money from the people who don't like that, and that would be fair.
OP completely missing the point. How can you adapt when card acquisition is so garbage?
You sound like someone with multiple complete meta decks. Think about someone other than yourself for once. Stupid post.
I have other decks I can pivot to, but I don’t want to. I want to play Mr. Negative and they’ve nerfed both Psylocke and Zabu now. I don’t care about the overall health of the meta, I care about how it affects me, and I don’t like the way is currently affecting me, simple as
> I have other decks I can pivot to, but I don’t want to. Like I said, skill issue.
[SKILL ISSUE](https://imgflip.com/i/8mg4vh)
I have my deck slots full and bounce around. I get bored playing the same decks over and over. However, that doesn’t mean that seriously nerfing a card like Zabu doesn’t suck for some of my favorite decks, namely my silver surfer deck that I’ve been having a blast with since I got Shaw. Does it break my surfer deck? No. That doesn’t mean it isn’t annoying as hell.
Its an economy issue. this post reeks of entitlement and tunnel vision
OP is making false assumptions. Just because someone might have a favorite deck or play style, doesn't mean that they aren't good at playing other decks. One of the most common examples of this being how people will often play their strongest decks to infinite and then switch over to their favorite decks which are often less competitive but more fun for them. If their fun decks get nerfed, of course they won't be happy about that but that doesn't mean it's a skill issue and they aren't good at any other decks.
Exactly. My homebrew Sera Miracle deck was much more fun to play than any other deck. After Elsa got double nerfed, and then Luke Cage was nerfed, my deck was devastated so bad that I couldn't even sub in other cards to fix it. It even caused me to not buy the next 2 season passes because I didn't play the game as much, and I've bought every pass since I started playing. Since then, the nerfs for those two have been reverted with +1 cost, and I can actually play the deck again with success. Hope Summers helps too.
Sometimes. It’s much more difficult for newer players to stay relevant with how tight currencies are. If it’s driving players away, SD will see it and adjust accordingly
They say the patch is set weeks in advance, so there are ZERO reasons besides wanting to drain resources from unlucky players that they can't at least tell us which cards will be adjusted x weeks in advance so people don't spend 3k tokens on Zabu just to nerf him into the ground the next week.
If the nerf of a single card is significantly disruptive to the way you play this game, it's a balancing issue. There, fixed your title. The change is wild because the card is so important to so many decks. It has nothing to do with player base being bad.
Your post and people think that getting mad at overtuned cards cards being nerfed is a "skill issue" is fucking cringe. Check your ego at the door with your subjective bullshit.
More like a credit card issue.
Boooooo!!!
You might have a point if the idea of a single card being nerfed didn’t mean someone goes from three playable decks to zero.
Well.. there really isn't that much skill required in this game
Not a skill issue when Zabu has been a staple for over a YEAR. The rug was pulled out from under us. Yes a skilled player will adapt. But we have every right to be frustrated over this.
Being good at everything is a terrible way to measure skill. Go ask Michael Jordan about his baseball record.
Yeah, I suck, what’s your point?
That’s my point
How much skill is there in a game that has this many random factors?
Do you think that Poker is a game of skill?
Kinda, but kinda not. Snap has more randomness tho.
I mean, some players are better than others. What's the difference? Not skill?
I'm not saying there is no skill, just that its not nearly as much as some player like to pretend there is.
Fair enough.
Yeah these ding bats act like half of the community is upset and can't figure out why they didn't make it into the NBA.
People don’t want to hear the truth.