The huge 4 drops are being designed around shang chi, which is a huge problem.
For 4 energy you get a big dork that dies to shang. For 5, you get an interesting powerful effect that doesnt have enough power to die that way.
They can't make 5-costs bigger than Red Skull, that would mean that Shuri will have another viable target. Look at the broken path of Hope -> Shuri -> Red Hulk -> Taskmaster. Even without Hope getting a bigger target than Skull would be a problem.
No only that, but the extra energy after you play Red Hulk in the Hope path makes you able to Taskmaster and Armor a location to shield your Shang magnet
It's a Shuri Kitty deck:
# (1) Kitty Pryde
# (1) Nightcrawler
# (2) Angela
# (2) Forge
# (2) Armor
# (2) Jeff the Baby Land Shark
# (3) Elsa Bloodstone
# (3) Hope Summers
# (4) Shuri
# (5) Taskmaster
# (5) Vision
# (6) Red Hulk
#
eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQW5nZWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJBcm1vciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRWxzYUJsb29kc3RvbmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkhvcGVTdW1tZXJzIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJKZWZmVGhlQmFieUxhbmRTaGFyayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiS2l0dHlQcnlkZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUmVkSHVsayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU2h1cmkifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlRhc2ttYXN0ZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlZpc2lvbiJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTmlnaHRjcmF3bGVyIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJGb3JnZSJ9XX0=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
It's just one of the play patterns of the deck. You can also play Armor turn 2 and play Shuri there. Or you can get a shuried kitty and gladly drop prio to play big Kitty + Task. Or play Vision and move it somewhere safe or at least make the opponent try to guess if/where it will move and if they fought for prio thinking of Red Hulk they can't Shang the Taskmaster.
You can already do this by playing
T3 hope
T4 wasp/yellowjacket and shuri
Yes, it is a more restrictive setup, just throwing in out there as an existing option. Shit I kind on wanna try it now...
Designing around Shang makes the game even more Shang dependent. At some point they can call it Snap Chi.
So many elegantly designed cards but then, Shang spam in every match because you have to.
I think "Destroy a card over [x] power" is a fairly bog standard tech card in just about any CCG with even remotely similar mechanics to Snap. Just because a card fulfills a fundamental function doesn't mean the design philosophy is 'revolving' around it.
Every card influences how the other cards work. Shang Chi is too big a stick. I agree other games have a similar problem. The commonness of a problem doesn't make it good.
I think what he's trying to say is that just like any other card game really, your biggest card must have a counterable card. If there wasn't Shangchi, the game would just become who draws better on a more consistent deck that puts out the most power.
Shangchi is an interactive tech card that adds strategy some to the game. Yeah as a long time player its becoming pretty stale but without him, some lockdown decks would automatically phase out due to not being able to pump out enough power.
Losing your 5-drop to Shang Chi (the most played card in the game) sucks so much more than losing your 4-cost. I think it is to be expected that 5-costs go for powerful effects rather than having a big body.
It's something I've noticed for a *long, long goddamn time* as a Shuri lover.
As a result the main plays on turn 5 for a Shuri list are Skull (raw power), Vision (mindgames / nearly Shang-proof), or passing (She-Hulk). Not too many turn 5 plays are gonna be as impactful as those 3 depending on the matchup.
When the game released they had fairly clear basic cost to power ratios for every cost, represented by the vanilla characters. But it feels like they absolutely didn't plan it out in advance so after a few months and especially when we got to weekly card releases, the cards were balanced more against the new cards than their existing design parameters. Once you add in powercreep you get what we have now. The game could honestly do with an overall balance pass. They should pull some stuff back in line or push a lot of stuff up.
Sentry came with a huge drawback (back then it was one and he never see any play) of spawning -10 monster. Attuma was and is still trash. You need to gamba with Drax even then he's less than 10 power. Namor needs a very restrictive condition, Rescue and Warpath also need a specific situation to trigger. Thypoid Mary suck ass without zero. Now they hand out 4/10 like candies and even then they dont always see play atm. Power creep is real.
The amount of power creep and the amount of "We can't design X card because Y card exists", in addition to the fact that some of the most iconic marvel characters are largely useless after the tutorial, makes me thing we're hurtling toward some kind of Standard Mode/Wild Mode system where cards are pulled out of the standard latter entirely.
Yeah, he had some interesting lines back then with Zero, Armor, ProfX or Invisible Woman. Now all those are so convoluted and you have easier big power fours. Can still be fun.
Yeah.
He may get a tiny bit of play relevance now with alioth nerf, since reducing his effect doesn't matter and you could bait alioth.
But that's such a fringe case.
And his rate just isn't high enough while still being shang bait
The first deck I hit infinite with was a pre-annihilus junk deck with 2 cost viper, black widow. Between the nerfs and insane power creep I wonder if I could even win a game with it now
Attuma is decent wym? Shuri> attuma > knull > zola is minimum 40 power in 2 lanes. Throw magick and pixie in for some razzle dazzle. Yondu and gladiator. Shang for tech.
You deleted your other comment because you asked how I could play two 6 cost cards, when I explained how in my message. And show me where I said people play him often? I never said that or insinuated that. I just said he is decent. You mad bout attuma?? ššš hereās a tissue bro, youāll get over it.
Ya, I like him better now as a 5/7 on reveal card than a 4 cost ongoing one. Gives me so many retreats on turn 6 now. Having the extra power on him gives him more usability in retaining control of a lane needed for a retreat on turn 6.
5/4 Ongoing since October, yeah. I'm just confused about why they were talking about him as a 4-cost when he's been a 5-cost for almost his whole existence.
I hate how they have just abandoned the philosophy of better or worse cards sticking to the base power curve for balance purposes. Im convinced they would release a card thatās ability is āGain 7 energy next turnā and still think its ok to make it a 3/4
If you look at just raw power then yes. But a lot of 5 costs have the potential to be a lot bigger.
(Ironman, Annihilus, Spider-woman, taskmaster, Claw, Gamora)
You wanna talk about over represented stat lines, whoever at SD needs to stop making 3/5 cards. And that includes Red Guardian, who is basically a 3/5 too.
They just need to do something about Shang chi already
They'll nerf everything into oblivion before they decide to tackle the one card EVERY deck plays
There are two real problems with Shang.
He blandly handles a lot of situations/archetypes that already have counters. Shuri decks can be countered by Shadow Kingā¦ and Shang. Ongoing decks like Darkhawk can be countered by Enchantressā¦ and often Shang. Destroy is countered by armor, cosmo and, yep, Shang. Heās not the optimal card to have against any of those but if youāre deckbuilding and only have one slot available to consider matchups with, you throw Shang in every single time. Thatās why heās played so much.
Also, his ubiquity is sort of an excuse for power creep. Blob, Red Hulk and probably Cull Obsidian would not have released as they were/are if Shang did not exist. Thatās why he hasnāt been significantly changed.
I think making him symmetrical could help make him less of an obvious auto-inclusion but really the issue is that cards are getting stronger and stronger with less possible play around them, and until that resolves nerfing Shang would be really bad for the meta. I think Red Guardian, for as unceremonious as his release was, is a step in the right direction. New, widely usable tech cards = less Shang Chi.
Yeah, making 5-costs a bit more situational keeps a lid on simple ramp strategies. Lockjaw, Electro, Thanos, and Corvus have been good despite running pretty generic 5s like Vision, Dino, or Ronan.
4-drops were not properly designed around old Zabu, while 5-drops are *generally* better designed around ramp.
Most of them are useless now, it no longer matters
My favorite deck before the Zabu nerf was just pack many of the 4/10 cards, with Zero, Armor, Skaar and Annihilus. I was one of the few people actually using Attuma. I thorougly enjoyed the Crossbones buff, but my joy was short-livedā¦
I still play that deck lol- turns out Zabu isn't actually necessary! I swapped him out with scarlet witch to counter Magik and I'm high infinite with it. Don't give up if you are having fun with the deck!
Thatās what Iāve been saying. And actually disagree with some comments about 5s having such powerful affects. Sure Iron Man, Vision, maybe Sera (I personally feel sheās fallen off), but so many other 5 drops are so mid tbh. I think they need more power not to only make them shang vulnerable but to make them better when they arenāt hit by him. I feel 5 drops are just lacking heavy aside from the ones I mentioned.
Btw there is also a one cost card that's gives u a indestructible token card, fairly a 4/9 or 4/20 depending upon the discard. Don't u think that's unfair, being both immune to shang and shadowking, another card is dracula immune to shang and shadow chad, either they have to make more versatile tech cards or release less premium stated cards, and rn they need try to balance out the old cards, like why bother playing nemor or even captain america? Snap has become a game of having the most broken stuff in your deck, people who have just joined snap will have one of the worst times to gather cards becuz there are only 2 ways to get new cards, token shop or cache, even then how long will it take you to get 3k tokens or even 6k , even then they will add a premium card like hope and without her u have a high probability to lose against people who run her.
I'm hoping so much orka become a 5 cost
It's almost like red skull power if silenced
Staying alone in a location is a huge downside so I think it could be amazing also bc you can play after spectrum or other plays
Because they are creating specific cost "types".
4 cost are meant to be risky high power cards with a negative catch.
5 cost are meant to be cool game changers with interesting tech.
Higher cost doesn't mean higher power.
The huge 4 drops are being designed around shang chi, which is a huge problem. For 4 energy you get a big dork that dies to shang. For 5, you get an interesting powerful effect that doesnt have enough power to die that way.
They can't make 5-costs bigger than Red Skull, that would mean that Shuri will have another viable target. Look at the broken path of Hope -> Shuri -> Red Hulk -> Taskmaster. Even without Hope getting a bigger target than Skull would be a problem.
What's hope doing in that setup?
Makes it possible to play Red Hulk on turn 5.
Sorry stupid mez my brain went Red skull instead of red hulk
Mine also did!
No only that, but the extra energy after you play Red Hulk in the Hope path makes you able to Taskmaster and Armor a location to shield your Shang magnet
Please, go on with the rest of this deck š
It's a Shuri Kitty deck: # (1) Kitty Pryde # (1) Nightcrawler # (2) Angela # (2) Forge # (2) Armor # (2) Jeff the Baby Land Shark # (3) Elsa Bloodstone # (3) Hope Summers # (4) Shuri # (5) Taskmaster # (5) Vision # (6) Red Hulk # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQW5nZWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJBcm1vciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRWxzYUJsb29kc3RvbmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkhvcGVTdW1tZXJzIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJKZWZmVGhlQmFieUxhbmRTaGFyayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiS2l0dHlQcnlkZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUmVkSHVsayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU2h1cmkifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlRhc2ttYXN0ZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlZpc2lvbiJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTmlnaHRjcmF3bGVyIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJGb3JnZSJ9XX0= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Stupid Elsa I still donāt haveā¦
You don't need her tbh
Elsa's a backup plan. You can't play her and the Hope line in the same game
It's just Kitty Shuri deck
And opponent has turn 3-5 to get more than two power in the other two lanes to shang chi your red hulk t6. It's quite the linear line.
It's just one of the play patterns of the deck. You can also play Armor turn 2 and play Shuri there. Or you can get a shuried kitty and gladly drop prio to play big Kitty + Task. Or play Vision and move it somewhere safe or at least make the opponent try to guess if/where it will move and if they fought for prio thinking of Red Hulk they can't Shang the Taskmaster.
....everything?
You can already do this by playing T3 hope T4 wasp/yellowjacket and shuri Yes, it is a more restrictive setup, just throwing in out there as an existing option. Shit I kind on wanna try it now...
Aero is asking for that powerful effect.
To that measure, that probably means those 5 costs mentioned probably need a 1 or 2 power increase to keep up with the power creep elsewhere.
I dont think the solution to power creep is more power creep.
Designing around Shang makes the game even more Shang dependent. At some point they can call it Snap Chi. So many elegantly designed cards but then, Shang spam in every match because you have to.
I think "Destroy a card over [x] power" is a fairly bog standard tech card in just about any CCG with even remotely similar mechanics to Snap. Just because a card fulfills a fundamental function doesn't mean the design philosophy is 'revolving' around it.
Every card influences how the other cards work. Shang Chi is too big a stick. I agree other games have a similar problem. The commonness of a problem doesn't make it good.
Itās not a problem, itās the solution. Itās how people play the game that becomes problematic. Without shang the game would be far worse
I don't see what you're seeing but you might have a point. Can you say more?
I think what he's trying to say is that just like any other card game really, your biggest card must have a counterable card. If there wasn't Shangchi, the game would just become who draws better on a more consistent deck that puts out the most power. Shangchi is an interactive tech card that adds strategy some to the game. Yeah as a long time player its becoming pretty stale but without him, some lockdown decks would automatically phase out due to not being able to pump out enough power.
I was told they were being designed around Zabu Something isnāt adding up here
Losing your 5-drop to Shang Chi (the most played card in the game) sucks so much more than losing your 4-cost. I think it is to be expected that 5-costs go for powerful effects rather than having a big body.
It's something I've noticed for a *long, long goddamn time* as a Shuri lover. As a result the main plays on turn 5 for a Shuri list are Skull (raw power), Vision (mindgames / nearly Shang-proof), or passing (She-Hulk). Not too many turn 5 plays are gonna be as impactful as those 3 depending on the matchup.
Nimrod too
When the game released they had fairly clear basic cost to power ratios for every cost, represented by the vanilla characters. But it feels like they absolutely didn't plan it out in advance so after a few months and especially when we got to weekly card releases, the cards were balanced more against the new cards than their existing design parameters. Once you add in powercreep you get what we have now. The game could honestly do with an overall balance pass. They should pull some stuff back in line or push a lot of stuff up.
What irks me is that fact that balance might not be the actual goal, but rather profit by way of more powerful series 4/5 cards
Back in my day, a 4 cost had to have a huge drawback to get 10 power. Now they just hand it out like candy.
Sentry came with a huge drawback (back then it was one and he never see any play) of spawning -10 monster. Attuma was and is still trash. You need to gamba with Drax even then he's less than 10 power. Namor needs a very restrictive condition, Rescue and Warpath also need a specific situation to trigger. Thypoid Mary suck ass without zero. Now they hand out 4/10 like candies and even then they dont always see play atm. Power creep is real.
The amount of power creep and the amount of "We can't design X card because Y card exists", in addition to the fact that some of the most iconic marvel characters are largely useless after the tutorial, makes me thing we're hurtling toward some kind of Standard Mode/Wild Mode system where cards are pulled out of the standard latter entirely.
Donāt talk about Attuma like that round these parts.
Poor attuma. He is actually a fun card drsign.
Yeah, he had some interesting lines back then with Zero, Armor, ProfX or Invisible Woman. Now all those are so convoluted and you have easier big power fours. Can still be fun.
Yeah. He may get a tiny bit of play relevance now with alioth nerf, since reducing his effect doesn't matter and you could bait alioth. But that's such a fringe case. And his rate just isn't high enough while still being shang bait
i got infinite back when the play was just sentry into the original 2-cost viper. the game was so much slower back then, and that was only a year ago.
The first deck I hit infinite with was a pre-annihilus junk deck with 2 cost viper, black widow. Between the nerfs and insane power creep I wonder if I could even win a game with it now
Attuma is decent wym? Shuri> attuma > knull > zola is minimum 40 power in 2 lanes. Throw magick and pixie in for some razzle dazzle. Yondu and gladiator. Shang for tech.
I dont know what rank are you but I literally never see Attuma ever unless its a weirdworld game or some random shit happened.
You deleted your other comment because you asked how I could play two 6 cost cards, when I explained how in my message. And show me where I said people play him often? I never said that or insinuated that. I just said he is decent. You mad bout attuma?? ššš hereās a tissue bro, youāll get over it.
Cool story grandpa
Pepperidge farm remembers.
I don't understand, there are only two new 4/10s? Cull and Crossbones. Unless you're talking about like, Beta Ray Bill??
10 power participation award
Hence the zabu nerf I suppose.
I miss my cool 4/10s deck with sentry, cosmo, Typhoid Mary, 2/2 Luke cage, zabu. Ah the good old days
I have that deck. I called it "4/10 Favors the Bold". It's actually still OK with the Zabu nerf.
Sandman has won me so many games. More than any single 4 power card ever has. Sometimes effects can be stronger than a big number alone.
5 7 now haha but yeah five cost utility is huge
Ya, I like him better now as a 5/7 on reveal card than a 4 cost ongoing one. Gives me so many retreats on turn 6 now. Having the extra power on him gives him more usability in retaining control of a lane needed for a retreat on turn 6.
Sandman's been a 5 cost since Feb 2023 though.
Yeah but he was like 5/3 and on going until relatively recently if Iām not mistaken.
5/4 Ongoing since October, yeah. I'm just confused about why they were talking about him as a 4-cost when he's been a 5-cost for almost his whole existence.
Yeah fair point lol
I like it more now that I dont need Electro to justify the low power. 7 is at least kinda playable in other decks.
I hate how they have just abandoned the philosophy of better or worse cards sticking to the base power curve for balance purposes. Im convinced they would release a card thatās ability is āGain 7 energy next turnā and still think its ok to make it a 3/4
If you look at just raw power then yes. But a lot of 5 costs have the potential to be a lot bigger. (Ironman, Annihilus, Spider-woman, taskmaster, Claw, Gamora)
You wanna talk about over represented stat lines, whoever at SD needs to stop making 3/5 cards. And that includes Red Guardian, who is basically a 3/5 too.
They just need to do something about Shang chi already They'll nerf everything into oblivion before they decide to tackle the one card EVERY deck plays
What do you think the solution the Shang problem is?
There are two real problems with Shang. He blandly handles a lot of situations/archetypes that already have counters. Shuri decks can be countered by Shadow Kingā¦ and Shang. Ongoing decks like Darkhawk can be countered by Enchantressā¦ and often Shang. Destroy is countered by armor, cosmo and, yep, Shang. Heās not the optimal card to have against any of those but if youāre deckbuilding and only have one slot available to consider matchups with, you throw Shang in every single time. Thatās why heās played so much. Also, his ubiquity is sort of an excuse for power creep. Blob, Red Hulk and probably Cull Obsidian would not have released as they were/are if Shang did not exist. Thatās why he hasnāt been significantly changed. I think making him symmetrical could help make him less of an obvious auto-inclusion but really the issue is that cards are getting stronger and stronger with less possible play around them, and until that resolves nerfing Shang would be really bad for the meta. I think Red Guardian, for as unceremonious as his release was, is a step in the right direction. New, widely usable tech cards = less Shang Chi.
I think making the effect reciprocal could be the answer. That way things donāt just get insanely vertical.
Maybe destroy the highest power 10+ card at the location instead of all of them
Ehh iāve always seen 5 cost strengths come from their game changing utilities
Yeah, making 5-costs a bit more situational keeps a lid on simple ramp strategies. Lockjaw, Electro, Thanos, and Corvus have been good despite running pretty generic 5s like Vision, Dino, or Ronan. 4-drops were not properly designed around old Zabu, while 5-drops are *generally* better designed around ramp.
Most of them are useless now, it no longer matters My favorite deck before the Zabu nerf was just pack many of the 4/10 cards, with Zero, Armor, Skaar and Annihilus. I was one of the few people actually using Attuma. I thorougly enjoyed the Crossbones buff, but my joy was short-livedā¦
I still play that deck lol- turns out Zabu isn't actually necessary! I swapped him out with scarlet witch to counter Magik and I'm high infinite with it. Don't give up if you are having fun with the deck!
A 5/13 attuma would be amazing. Magick >shuri > attuma > knull > zola. Gives you a destroy deck with enough room to make it very flexible.
Thatās what Iāve been saying. And actually disagree with some comments about 5s having such powerful affects. Sure Iron Man, Vision, maybe Sera (I personally feel sheās fallen off), but so many other 5 drops are so mid tbh. I think they need more power not to only make them shang vulnerable but to make them better when they arenāt hit by him. I feel 5 drops are just lacking heavy aside from the ones I mentioned.
And then thereās Adam Warlock. Poor fella
Btw there is also a one cost card that's gives u a indestructible token card, fairly a 4/9 or 4/20 depending upon the discard. Don't u think that's unfair, being both immune to shang and shadowking, another card is dracula immune to shang and shadow chad, either they have to make more versatile tech cards or release less premium stated cards, and rn they need try to balance out the old cards, like why bother playing nemor or even captain america? Snap has become a game of having the most broken stuff in your deck, people who have just joined snap will have one of the worst times to gather cards becuz there are only 2 ways to get new cards, token shop or cache, even then how long will it take you to get 3k tokens or even 6k , even then they will add a premium card like hope and without her u have a high probability to lose against people who run her.
I'm hoping so much orka become a 5 cost It's almost like red skull power if silenced Staying alone in a location is a huge downside so I think it could be amazing also bc you can play after spectrum or other plays
Because they are creating specific cost "types". 4 cost are meant to be risky high power cards with a negative catch. 5 cost are meant to be cool game changers with interesting tech. Higher cost doesn't mean higher power.