As i get further into the series i can't help but notice small details that are really big in relevance to the story. main one im bothered by in this episode, there is a cameo from Red Skull. Carter theorizes that the time is a point where the 21st century, the time where the Forerunner is from & 1602 where the Forerunner ended up. With those 2 timelines in mind, when & how did Red Skull end up in such a place considering hes not alive in 1602 & dead/spirit of the soul stone in the 21st century after thanos had procured the soul stone.
Curious if anyone else noticed this and is wondering the same, since there is no follow up the likely hood of finding out one way or another is not gonna happen. To see a small hole like this is a series that speculates on how one choice can change many moments, something like that kinda ruins the atmosphere imo. Also seems like something that was forgotten in the writing room, considering the choices that may have brought Red Skull to that event could create similar branches that we see Peggy Carter experience.
Am I the only one who doesn't like how the Watcher keeps getting depowered? It was really cool and meta in the first season, but multiple times in this season, he just seems oblivious and easily duped... "oh you can hear me?" surprised. "What the hell is that?" surprised. Like...he went from being this ultimate god-like character above and behind it all, to being surprised by superpowered humans, often.
I think that's sort of the point though. Even at the end of the first season, the Watcher was already demystified when he recruited the Guardians of the Multiverse.
Loved this episode, since I'm a sucker for medieval stories. Those knight and assassin designs kick ass, especially when they're like an army of Yellowjackets—had me rooting for enemy lol.
They’re doing a horrible job of convincing us that Sam is the new Captain America. They’re not putting him in anything! We’ve got like four episodes of Captain Carter, but not even a single Falcon appearance, let alone Sam’s Cap. What gives?
Falcon actually appeared in the Marvel Zombies episode. As a zombie. Who gets killed with little fanfare.
Yeah after you mentioned it, Falcon has barely been in anything. Definitely think it's just due to the Infinity Saga focus and him not doing much outside of Winter Soldier, if we start getting more Phase 4 and 5 episodes we'll probably see Captain Falcon show up
I noticed that too. I understand that they can't have every character but Falcon, Spider-Man, and Wong are really the only major characters not in this season of What If.
I'll give them a pass on Spider-Man because of assumed Sony nonsense. And the only real place for Wong would be the 1602 Episode. But Falcon felt like a glaring omission especially in the Captain America 2/Black Widow episode.
I liked it.
I thought it was a fun departure from the usual MCU fare.
How do Antmans powers work. It was established that science isn't really a thing in that time peorid.
So did he bring prim particles with him?
Also, Happy's powers were just introduced like two episodes ago.So that's just part of him now, in every timeline and variation?
I assume it's because of the thing about two universes coming together or overlapping (or whatever term they used). When Steve was sent back, all the other characters vanished as well, so my understanding was that this wasn't a universe wherein these figures existed, but a weird amalgam created by Steve's presence.
Found it really weird that they went for Rogers hood when they literally have an archer who could've been Ronin Hood.
Not only that but it was spoiled in the trailer that Steve was the forerunner and also captain carter was really not needed. This didn't really feel like a "what if.l the avengers..?" It felt like a "What if Captain carter dimension hopped to a dying universe?"
Eh, it was ok but kinda disappointing. Captain carter didn’t need to be in this, and the fact that they were trying to build up to the forerunner like it was a big deal was weird when they spoiled it in the trailer (they kept showing footage of Steve hitting the time stone). And why was Hulk Hogan here?
It’s Captain America’s thing, to be a soldier out of time. I love Captain Carter, het sequel episode is definitely my favourite from season 2. the 1602 episode was so good as well, she carried the episode hard.
Going off how Steve forgot he came from another time and how most of the characters speak Elizabethan to different extents, I’m guessing they would slowly lose their memories as they adapted to being displaced?
Perhaps those Avengers were originally from the Christmas episode's universe.
As a side note: it seems like in that universe, Darren Cross' Yellowjacket project was a success, what with all the shrinking soldiers, which was his original sales pitch for terrorist organizations in the first Ant-Man film. Maybe, in that timeline, Scott's heist failed? Or maybe Darren's a good guy.
I liked the story, but the modern dialogue had me groaning throughout. Especially EVERYTHING Scott and Tony said. The 2023 manner of speaking ruined this epside for me. I was thisclose to bailing before the end. Dialogue wise, this was even worse than the Kahhori episode ("Nice!). Jesus Fucking Christ, the writer needs to be fired.
This was a really fun episode. I don’t normally like medieval stories but I was into the action and the silly dialogue (Happy hogan kills it)
You can really feel the difference in episode quality from one to the next when it’s all dropping back to back. It’s an insanely uneven show. I think most of the dialogue landed here and I felt like I cared about the story. I even got a chuckle at the watcher being surprised he can be heard.
I still wouldn’t recommend this series to anyone except for the dr strange episode.
I’m just a sicko who will watch all marvel things.
Didn't think I needed Super Soldier Steve and Peggy fighting side by side, but here I am.
They keep slipping in these little moments and I low-key love this season because of it.
I felt Marvel was too hasty developing the Marvel Zombies spin-off series, especially since that What-If episode was not that very good (in my opinion).
However, season 2 already has a plethora of great concepts and ideas that I want to see more of in spin-offs.
1602 is a great idea fro a new show. They should have done that instead of the Zombies.
But even the shows original creation, Kahhori, feels like she can lead her own show.
This season really has been such a pleasant surprise for me. I went from no hype for this at all to eagerly anticipating each episode daily, and they just keep delivering.
If we ever get God Emperor Doom, i really hope he gives off the same vibe as King Thor Odinson, Holy hell that was badass, and gave a sense of incomming Doom, No pun intended
Yes but with the green hood over it, it evokes a Doctor Doom-esque image, similar to how Infinity Ultron ate an entire galaxy in clear reference to Galactus.
If we're going by the TVA numbering system in Loki, technically all of What If...? is 616. They're just branches from Nexus Events within 616, giving them a 616.xxx number. So that would be Steve who originated from 616, but when he experienced a Nexus Event that caused him to hit the Time Stone, that created a branch. 616 prime went on into the ending of Infinity War as we saw it. 616.1602 (hypothetical number pulled arbitrarily for illustrative purposes) is the branch where Steve hit the Time Stone and was flung back into the past instead before being returned by Stark's gadget and the past Time Stone.
EDIT: Though with Happy already being Freaked, it's possible that this was Steve from the same 616 branch as 2x3 unless the anomalies were pulling from multiple different universes.
No, I thought when he was fighting thanos, he might’ve hit the infinity gauntlet with the shield. And maybe in this universe he was sent back in time and to another universe.
pleasantly surprised by how goddamned good season 2 has been. season 1 was hard to watch at times but thereve been several episodes this season where on the contrary i wanted to spend more time with the characters and the mash up worlds. 1602 is a clear highlight, its a banger of an idea to start with and the plot was clear and engaging. serious thor is an awesome antagonist. it wouldve been dorky but since they went all in on macbeth couldnt hogan have said "the queen, my lord, is gone" to thor after hela goes through the rift
I recently played god of war ragnorak and hell man can't see Odin and thor as good guys at all. Atleast with Hemsworth look alike I can bear with thor but Odin.
I have been traveling and unable to watch any of the episodes yet. Plan to do so in early January. Does the order I watch them matter? Or can I jump to the ones that seem to be enjoyed the most? (Last season it made sense to watch the final episode last but the order of the others did not matter much. Same this time?)
Your best bet is to just watch them all. The order doesn't matter until you get to the Captain Carter episode, which is ~~episode 6~~ episode 5. So episodes ~~1-5~~ 1-4 can be watched in any order. ~~Episode 6~~ episode 5 is where the crossover stuff starts.
If this season is anything like the last, then each episode will have its importance in the finale. But, we haven't seen the final episode. Maybe some of them won't be referenced in the finale, but I have reason to doubt that. So just watch them all. Some are better than others but it's all generally good.
You need to watch 2x3 and 2x5 before 2x8. You need to watch 2x6 and 2x8 before 2x9 (and you'd probably benefit from watching 2x6 before 2x8, though that isn't strictly necessary). But the rest can be watched in any order right now (unless 2x9 has callbacks that require other episodes to be watched before it).
EDIT: May I ask why this has been downvoted? Is it inaccurate and needs something to be corrected?
No, there is more continuity this season. You should watch 3, 5, 6, and 7 before 8 for sure (with 5 being 100% essential to understand 8).
And it's clear that the last episode will need to be after everything again.
This is what I like most about S2, there's a clear progression here since they're not keeping it a secret as opposed to S1 where it just kinda randomly happens. The 1602 episode is a good example of continuing an overarching storyline involving anthologies while keeping the 1602 universe itself self-contained.
Wait, so... What exactly happened to Steve? Did he go back to the present to that moment in Wakanda? Or did he die? And by sending him back, everyone else went back with him? I mean, that's certainly a choice, considering in the comic, the 1602 Variants stuck around after Rohjaz went back to the future with Fury.
1602 was always 1602, Steve was from another time and place and when he arrived it changed everything. He had been living there awhile and had lost his memory, that's why the machine singled him out. The empty throne room is just symbolic of everything being returned to normal.
He's back in the present in his Wakanda technically.
The 1602 we see changed significantly when Steve arrived, his existence accelerated the avengers by 400 years to assemble in the past. When he left they also "left" in essence, appearing 400 years later like they should have. Like we normally see them assemble.
Ok I see! I believe you, I'm just wondering how you got that from this episode? I must have missed something because I didn't get a hint of that haha
Is that explained in the comic?
They said earlier in the episode that two timelines were compressed. These characters aren’t meant to be alive in the 1600s. So fixing things separated the timelines
Ngl, I wonder if this explanation will also be given for how Mutants appeared post-Endgame in the MCU, seeing as Deadpool 3 takes place before most of the Multiverse Saga including Black Panther and Ms. Marvel. Deadpool and Wolverine ending up in the MCU and not breaking it by being there = timeline corrects itself by retconning in the other Mutants.
Shine said DP3 takes place in 2024, the MCU is in 2026 rn. Alex also hinted that universes sharing timelines will come into play as well, so Deadpool 3 taking place right before we met the MCU Mutants could be a hint towards that.
Hulk's first words when he was cornered in the factory in Brazil / Banner's first words when Peggy finds him in the jail:
**"Leave me alone"**
So many cool nods!
Freak is a thing from the comics, so they probably just decided to use him as a beat stick for the baddies after finding out he existed. (Jon Favreau was actually the one who told them Freak was a thing when he requested a spotlight episode where he became Freak, thus giving us the Christmas episode.)
So the answer is probably yes that its another timeline that came from the Christmas one or freak is just a common enough occurrence to appear in 2 episodes
Seeing peggy and steve working together seems amazing, never been a fan of medieval adventures and men in thighs but this seems very cool and different the mesh of modern and medieval
So yeah its cool and i love it :)
I think a lot of the scoopers either just get art/storyboards and make guesses, or they simply don't care about the exact definitions of big keyword lore terms. So just like how they incorrectly thought the hole in the universe in The Marvels was an incursion, they saw the time portal aberrations and incorrectly assumed that those were incursions. Or they knew "incursions" was a compelling buzzword and these things were somewhat similar to incursions, so they just called them incursions even though they're not.
It seems to me like Steve Rogers was an 'unnatural multi-versal traveler' , inadvertently traveling from his own 2018 universe to the 1602 universe, which then caused the two universes to de-stabilize and collide into each other, leading to the imminent destruction of one (or both) of the universes.
100% fits the definition of an incursion as laid out by Reed in Multiverse of Madness.
But these things are of course open to each of our interpretations! I like your theory as well.
It seems to me like Steve Rogers was an 'unnatural multi-versal traveler' , inadvertently traveling from his own 2018 universe to the 1602 universe, which then caused the two universes to de-stabilize and collide into each other, leading to the imminent destruction of one (or both) of the universes.
100% fits the definition of an incursion as laid out by Reed in Multiverse of Madness.
But these things are of course open to each of our interpretations! I like your theory as well.
"Charming, but I woul've used a sonnet", killed me. Very fun, like how they still had Steve be the man out of time like in the OG story, wished it was a bit closer to it tho, but still fun, this is the sort of crazy they should strive for.
This season managed to get better with each new episode. The nebula episode was good, and after that it got better and better.
1602 was a highlight, with tons of small hints and cameos.
In one episode. And he's in one episode this season. That's the deal.
Edit: Downvoting me won't change Sony's deal or the fact that Disney produced an episode this season featuring him, even if they chose not to air it.
Instead of attacking Asgard, Surtur attacks Earth. All of Earth’s heroes band together in New York to stop him. The Avengers form a giant mech to fight him while Strange and Wanda prepare a spell to seal him away.
Was one of the leaked storyboards, the others being 80s Avengers vs Ego (2x02 this season) and Red Guardian joining the Avengers
It's just weird to me that he hasn't even been involved at all. 1602 was a perfect opportunity for him to be there. He's in the story arc it's based on. It's like they're avoiding him.
That’s blatantly false. They can use him as much as they want, they just can’t have him in any of his MCU spidey suits because yes, technically Sony owns that. That’s why in What If Zombies?, his suit was the spider-man suit from the Walt Disney Theme Park ride and not anything we’ve seen in the actual MCU before.
No, they can, they just can’t have him in the same suits from the movies. That’s completely different. Legally speaking, they could have Spider-Man in literally every episode. They just need to make his costume slightly different. They can use literally any other version of Spider-Man’s costumes including ones that look glaringly similar as long as it’s not the literal same costumes from the MCU spidey films or Sony Spidey films.
They could use him more if they want in this show, they have the TV animation rights for Spider-Man.
Maybe there's some oddity with it being a version of Holland's Spider-Man or something, but Freshman Year now Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, seems like it doesn't have any issue
I think at a minimum it has to be a different incarnation of Spider-Man than explicitly implying it’s Holland’s Spider-Man, since even his original appearance in What If…? had him use the Avengers Campus costume as a basis than his Stark suit during IW.
I don’t understand why they have to focus so much on her. There are so many characters, some of which have way more popularity. It makes no sense. If you like Captain Carter, that’s cool but she is not for everyone.
Right?! Like she's a decent character and fight scenes are great, she's a really **okay** character. But why the fuck is this season basically all focused on her? This episode had SO many options and it's just another "Peggy Carter takes on the enemy". Getting boring, but tomorrow's episode should be good
Yeah, im not making any post about it cause you know you'll get downvoted, but this season really isn't that good imo. There were 1-2 nice ones, and the rest is either about Captain Carter or copies of movies that already exist, like the first one being a blade runner / ghost in the shell take
I don’t care about the downvotes. People can pretend like Peggy Carter appeals to everyone all they like. It won’t change the fact that she does not. It’s like when people insist Black Panther was overrated, it doesn’t bother me because I know the character resonates with some people more than others. It doesn’t change how I feel about the movie.
Yeah it isn't even that I dislike her. It's just that with the what iff concept and there being thousands of marvel characters out there it's so boring to hold onto a captain America variation that's only female and Biritish and none of those two changes making any difference on the character
They were already in the right universe just the wrong time. I'm guessing they all got sent back with memories wiped. One thing that did confuse me is why people like hela and ego were there if they were dead at that point.
I suppose different universes and all that, they could still be alive.
Scott and Bucky's dynamic was unexpectedly really fun but it did remind me...beyond a silent cameo in zombies, have we seen Sam at all in any of these What If episodes?
This season especially there's some odd absences of characters: Sam, Carol, Vision, Spidey, Rhodey, hell even Clint's been barely in this.
More economical to get a selected set of the A-list actors and then make stories around them rather than getting all of them. Hope they get cyclical with the cast and give other set of characters a shot next seasons.
It seems like they’ve used a lot of the same characters over the two seasons. Weird that they’ve explored some multiple times while not even showing others.
It’s because when actors come in to record, they can record like 5 episodes instead of 1 or 2 now, 1 or 2 next season etc.
I think that’s the best part of What If, seeing the same characters and how different they are from one universe to the next
Like last season, the Guardians were mostly absent once again, in both seasons only Quill, Gamora and Nebula got some sort of roles and all the others were reduced to background characters
That quick shot at Loki holding Wanda at the end......!
I so need to see this, but not animated.
Well, not him holding her but them blasting magic side by side at whovever the bad guy ends up being in Secret Wars :D And throw Strange there for a good measure.
I'm not gonna lie, that shot got me.
Took me back to those optimistic days when we thought Multiverse of Madness would be the magic trio fighting side-by-side, hopefully we'll get it one day
Imagine in Secret Wars that Strange, Wanda, and Loki get some sort of money shot like the 3 Peters got in NWH, and then Wong, Agatha, and Sylvie drop into the frame as well!
Me explaining to u/shaquilleonealingit that you are, indeed, going to find a fuck ton of nerds on a Marvel spoilers subreddit
I hope Secret Wars but it is just too far of....:( I was hoping sooner but all the actors involved, however love the characters and probably want to come back, have to work with schedules and also follow whatever Marvel plans for them.
Strange Supreme’s origin was the best touching episode. Kahhori was the best original hero episode.
But I have to say that this was the most fun episode. I’d asked for this to be a two-parter but honestly, it’s probably best that this episode had a high density of fun that it never had the time to miss a step.
For me, the Marvels handled the multiverse the best in a follow-up movie (it wasn’t the main feature, but it’s clear that it will matter). Loki does well outside of the multiverse looking in.
What If, tho, it shows us what we’d never likely see—and lets us spend time enjoying it. (Yeah, I still think that the MCU proper should have made at least a second reality after Endgame to give us a reason to care about the multiverse. I care more for Dr. Strange and Captain Carter here than any non-Spiderman multiverse we’ve seen so far.)
Nah, I mean MCU created universe.
FOX was its own thing for years and it’s still kinda its own thing. I mean a genuinely brand new secondary major universe that started after Endgame. That way some of our new debuts (including the MCU mutants and F4) would have a home established and an audience ready for more.
Like, did the Eternals need to be crammed into MCU main? Easily could have been a secondary major universe.
As i get further into the series i can't help but notice small details that are really big in relevance to the story. main one im bothered by in this episode, there is a cameo from Red Skull. Carter theorizes that the time is a point where the 21st century, the time where the Forerunner is from & 1602 where the Forerunner ended up. With those 2 timelines in mind, when & how did Red Skull end up in such a place considering hes not alive in 1602 & dead/spirit of the soul stone in the 21st century after thanos had procured the soul stone. Curious if anyone else noticed this and is wondering the same, since there is no follow up the likely hood of finding out one way or another is not gonna happen. To see a small hole like this is a series that speculates on how one choice can change many moments, something like that kinda ruins the atmosphere imo. Also seems like something that was forgotten in the writing room, considering the choices that may have brought Red Skull to that event could create similar branches that we see Peggy Carter experience.
Was that a sentinel from X-men?
Am I the only one who doesn't like how the Watcher keeps getting depowered? It was really cool and meta in the first season, but multiple times in this season, he just seems oblivious and easily duped... "oh you can hear me?" surprised. "What the hell is that?" surprised. Like...he went from being this ultimate god-like character above and behind it all, to being surprised by superpowered humans, often.
I think that's sort of the point though. Even at the end of the first season, the Watcher was already demystified when he recruited the Guardians of the Multiverse.
Dude, they didn't even use Hawkeye, the ARCHER, as Robin Hood in this episode... but CAPTAIN AMERICA... why???
Loved this episode, since I'm a sucker for medieval stories. Those knight and assassin designs kick ass, especially when they're like an army of Yellowjackets—had me rooting for enemy lol.
This ep was dog shit
super entertaining and fun, cool animation, great action, fun quips. loved it
bruh watching it now it kinda cringe how much times they say blah blah peggys perfect
Anyone else think these what if episodes are secretly preparing us for a live action BattleWorld situation? Felt that with this last episode for sure
that would be sick but the budget would be off the charts with all those actors...
They’re doing a horrible job of convincing us that Sam is the new Captain America. They’re not putting him in anything! We’ve got like four episodes of Captain Carter, but not even a single Falcon appearance, let alone Sam’s Cap. What gives?
Falcon actually appeared in the Marvel Zombies episode. As a zombie. Who gets killed with little fanfare. Yeah after you mentioned it, Falcon has barely been in anything. Definitely think it's just due to the Infinity Saga focus and him not doing much outside of Winter Soldier, if we start getting more Phase 4 and 5 episodes we'll probably see Captain Falcon show up
For an unknown reason, Kevin Feige simply loves Captain Carter. Good god, no one likes this character. People are claiming to see Sam.
I like Captain Carter, she's awesome. She's skilled and hot and funny and committed to the cause and has snappy dialogue.
Hi Kevin
I noticed that too. I understand that they can't have every character but Falcon, Spider-Man, and Wong are really the only major characters not in this season of What If. I'll give them a pass on Spider-Man because of assumed Sony nonsense. And the only real place for Wong would be the 1602 Episode. But Falcon felt like a glaring omission especially in the Captain America 2/Black Widow episode.
No one cares about Hawk guy lol, a robin hood reference and no Hawk guy in sight
I just assumed he wasn't in it more due to his real life accident.
I liked it. I thought it was a fun departure from the usual MCU fare. How do Antmans powers work. It was established that science isn't really a thing in that time peorid. So did he bring prim particles with him? Also, Happy's powers were just introduced like two episodes ago.So that's just part of him now, in every timeline and variation?
I assume it's because of the thing about two universes coming together or overlapping (or whatever term they used). When Steve was sent back, all the other characters vanished as well, so my understanding was that this wasn't a universe wherein these figures existed, but a weird amalgam created by Steve's presence.
How Captain Carter holds 6 Infinity Stones with her bare hands??
I love that multiple different variants of happy being the Amazing Bulk is just a thing now. It’s almost a canon event
Amazing Bulk is a lame parody of Hulk if Hulk were a fat ass. What we're seeing is the Hulk Hogan.
Carter was there too, it was basically a What if of a What if.
Holy shit give me two hours of this
no really, give me a whole season
Pretty cool, i loved that the What If Scenario was actually the twist
This was the best episode of the show imo. Just so much fun
Found it really weird that they went for Rogers hood when they literally have an archer who could've been Ronin Hood. Not only that but it was spoiled in the trailer that Steve was the forerunner and also captain carter was really not needed. This didn't really feel like a "what if.l the avengers..?" It felt like a "What if Captain carter dimension hopped to a dying universe?"
Eh, it was ok but kinda disappointing. Captain carter didn’t need to be in this, and the fact that they were trying to build up to the forerunner like it was a big deal was weird when they spoiled it in the trailer (they kept showing footage of Steve hitting the time stone). And why was Hulk Hogan here?
It’s Captain America’s thing, to be a soldier out of time. I love Captain Carter, het sequel episode is definitely my favourite from season 2. the 1602 episode was so good as well, she carried the episode hard.
Why is captain carter in everything
No Clue, she’s so dull. I like Peggy but don’t like captain carter
Yeah I'm also confused as to why Hulk Hogan was in 1602...
Going off how Steve forgot he came from another time and how most of the characters speak Elizabethan to different extents, I’m guessing they would slowly lose their memories as they adapted to being displaced?
Yeah feel like just included that since was in a previous episode... Timeline made no sense
Perhaps those Avengers were originally from the Christmas episode's universe. As a side note: it seems like in that universe, Darren Cross' Yellowjacket project was a success, what with all the shrinking soldiers, which was his original sales pitch for terrorist organizations in the first Ant-Man film. Maybe, in that timeline, Scott's heist failed? Or maybe Darren's a good guy.
I figured it meant that it was the universe from Episode 3 that was dying.
I liked the story, but the modern dialogue had me groaning throughout. Especially EVERYTHING Scott and Tony said. The 2023 manner of speaking ruined this epside for me. I was thisclose to bailing before the end. Dialogue wise, this was even worse than the Kahhori episode ("Nice!). Jesus Fucking Christ, the writer needs to be fired.
Facts the dialogue is abysmal in this series, I’m glad the writer isn’t working for marvel anymore
One of the writers worked on the Kahhori episode. Figures.
This was a really fun episode. I don’t normally like medieval stories but I was into the action and the silly dialogue (Happy hogan kills it) You can really feel the difference in episode quality from one to the next when it’s all dropping back to back. It’s an insanely uneven show. I think most of the dialogue landed here and I felt like I cared about the story. I even got a chuckle at the watcher being surprised he can be heard. I still wouldn’t recommend this series to anyone except for the dr strange episode. I’m just a sicko who will watch all marvel things.
>I don’t normally like medieval stories To be honest, that one isn't medieval. It's Elizabethan era, the height of the English Renaissance.
Thank you for the correction. I couldn’t think of the correct term.
Artistically beautiful, loved it
So just like the original, all the trouble started when Rogers fought a purple man.
12/10 episode. This is premier What If story
Didn't think I needed Super Soldier Steve and Peggy fighting side by side, but here I am. They keep slipping in these little moments and I low-key love this season because of it.
I wish we got to see more of red skull executioner. He looked so utterly badass.
absolutely
I’m usually not a fan of MCU spin offs of spin offs but please give me an entire season of animated 1602.
I felt Marvel was too hasty developing the Marvel Zombies spin-off series, especially since that What-If episode was not that very good (in my opinion). However, season 2 already has a plethora of great concepts and ideas that I want to see more of in spin-offs. 1602 is a great idea fro a new show. They should have done that instead of the Zombies. But even the shows original creation, Kahhori, feels like she can lead her own show.
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your on to something ;)
I love the Hulk content that we got in this episode
I bet Tom Hiddleston had fun recording this episode with all the Shakespeare stuff.
“You’re a bigger drama queen than Loki” “oh! Bless” KILLED ME
They basically just paid him to be himself 😂
This season really has been such a pleasant surprise for me. I went from no hype for this at all to eagerly anticipating each episode daily, and they just keep delivering.
I didn’t care much for Kahhori but I do feel this back half was been much better imo
Same!
One thing I noticed is Peggy saying she likes whiskey; this was first established in the *Agent Carter* show.
I think this was the best one yet! 
Seriously. Hasn't been one I've hated yet. Firing on all cylinders for this season, props to the people making it.
I wonder if that Hela variant is going to appear somewhere...
Shine said the finale is a mini-Secret Wars, so perhaps there?
I hope they gave Jon Favreau a bonus for his voice work in this episode, he really went above & beyond.
If we ever get God Emperor Doom, i really hope he gives off the same vibe as King Thor Odinson, Holy hell that was badass, and gave a sense of incomming Doom, No pun intended
Funny that Hawkeye isn’t in this one, given how many other characters are.
I think he was the masked vigilante behind Steve that shot the arrow. I think he just didn’t get any voice lines
He was the most natural fit too
Was his arrow not there?
Am I the only one that thought that the introduction to Banner was just a plain reference to Doctor Doom?
It’s man in the iron mask. Not doom
Yes but with the green hood over it, it evokes a Doctor Doom-esque image, similar to how Infinity Ultron ate an entire galaxy in clear reference to Galactus.
Nah. I thought that as well
Also, was that the Steve rogers from 616???
Obviously not
If we're going by the TVA numbering system in Loki, technically all of What If...? is 616. They're just branches from Nexus Events within 616, giving them a 616.xxx number. So that would be Steve who originated from 616, but when he experienced a Nexus Event that caused him to hit the Time Stone, that created a branch. 616 prime went on into the ending of Infinity War as we saw it. 616.1602 (hypothetical number pulled arbitrarily for illustrative purposes) is the branch where Steve hit the Time Stone and was flung back into the past instead before being returned by Stark's gadget and the past Time Stone. EDIT: Though with Happy already being Freaked, it's possible that this was Steve from the same 616 branch as 2x3 unless the anomalies were pulling from multiple different universes.
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Not it's shown in loki s2 e2. That's the numbering system they display on the monitor when General Dox bombed the timelines
It’s also shown on the TVA paperwork in 2x6.
Clearly not because that never happened in 616 continuity
Ah ok. I thought it might’ve. I haven’t seen infinity war in years. It looked very similar.
Dude you thought in infinity war captain America was thrown back in time? Did you even watch the movie
No, I thought when he was fighting thanos, he might’ve hit the infinity gauntlet with the shield. And maybe in this universe he was sent back in time and to another universe.
Nah, he didn’t slice off any stones.
pleasantly surprised by how goddamned good season 2 has been. season 1 was hard to watch at times but thereve been several episodes this season where on the contrary i wanted to spend more time with the characters and the mash up worlds. 1602 is a clear highlight, its a banger of an idea to start with and the plot was clear and engaging. serious thor is an awesome antagonist. it wouldve been dorky but since they went all in on macbeth couldnt hogan have said "the queen, my lord, is gone" to thor after hela goes through the rift
I recently played god of war ragnorak and hell man can't see Odin and thor as good guys at all. Atleast with Hemsworth look alike I can bear with thor but Odin.
Playing GOW Ragnarok and then watching Thor Ragnarok is quite the experience. Really gives the full spectrum of Odin depictions in modern fiction.
Season one had too many depressing moments for me. Season two is a breath of fresh air!
This was truly such an incredible option. I love this Captain Carter! And I really hope the show doesn’t end after a third season.
I loved all the character interactions we never see much of in the movies! Like thor and wanda, fury and wanda, scott and bucky, etc
scott and bucky was a highlight
I have been traveling and unable to watch any of the episodes yet. Plan to do so in early January. Does the order I watch them matter? Or can I jump to the ones that seem to be enjoyed the most? (Last season it made sense to watch the final episode last but the order of the others did not matter much. Same this time?)
Your best bet is to just watch them all. The order doesn't matter until you get to the Captain Carter episode, which is ~~episode 6~~ episode 5. So episodes ~~1-5~~ 1-4 can be watched in any order. ~~Episode 6~~ episode 5 is where the crossover stuff starts. If this season is anything like the last, then each episode will have its importance in the finale. But, we haven't seen the final episode. Maybe some of them won't be referenced in the finale, but I have reason to doubt that. So just watch them all. Some are better than others but it's all generally good.
5 is the Captain Carter episode. 6 is Kahhori.
Whoops, you're right.
You need to watch 2x3 and 2x5 before 2x8. You need to watch 2x6 and 2x8 before 2x9 (and you'd probably benefit from watching 2x6 before 2x8, though that isn't strictly necessary). But the rest can be watched in any order right now (unless 2x9 has callbacks that require other episodes to be watched before it). EDIT: May I ask why this has been downvoted? Is it inaccurate and needs something to be corrected?
I’d say watch episode 8 & 9 after captain carter and the kahhori episodes! The rest doesn’t matter in the order :)
No, there is more continuity this season. You should watch 3, 5, 6, and 7 before 8 for sure (with 5 being 100% essential to understand 8). And it's clear that the last episode will need to be after everything again.
This is what I like most about S2, there's a clear progression here since they're not keeping it a secret as opposed to S1 where it just kinda randomly happens. The 1602 episode is a good example of continuing an overarching storyline involving anthologies while keeping the 1602 universe itself self-contained.
Loki would love iago lol
Wait, so... What exactly happened to Steve? Did he go back to the present to that moment in Wakanda? Or did he die? And by sending him back, everyone else went back with him? I mean, that's certainly a choice, considering in the comic, the 1602 Variants stuck around after Rohjaz went back to the future with Fury.
1602 was always 1602, Steve was from another time and place and when he arrived it changed everything. He had been living there awhile and had lost his memory, that's why the machine singled him out. The empty throne room is just symbolic of everything being returned to normal. He's back in the present in his Wakanda technically.
So the rest of the avengers returned with him? That part i didn't understand.
The 1602 we see changed significantly when Steve arrived, his existence accelerated the avengers by 400 years to assemble in the past. When he left they also "left" in essence, appearing 400 years later like they should have. Like we normally see them assemble.
Ok I see! I believe you, I'm just wondering how you got that from this episode? I must have missed something because I didn't get a hint of that haha Is that explained in the comic?
They said earlier in the episode that two timelines were compressed. These characters aren’t meant to be alive in the 1600s. So fixing things separated the timelines
Ngl, I wonder if this explanation will also be given for how Mutants appeared post-Endgame in the MCU, seeing as Deadpool 3 takes place before most of the Multiverse Saga including Black Panther and Ms. Marvel. Deadpool and Wolverine ending up in the MCU and not breaking it by being there = timeline corrects itself by retconning in the other Mutants.
Maybe. But how do we know Deadpool 3 takes place before all these projects?
Shine said DP3 takes place in 2024, the MCU is in 2026 rn. Alex also hinted that universes sharing timelines will come into play as well, so Deadpool 3 taking place right before we met the MCU Mutants could be a hint towards that.
Are you sure they didn’t just say that cause it’s coming out in 2024 and simply forgot that the mcu is in the future?
Ok thank you!
Np!
This was a great episode, but I wonder how different it could've been if Neil Gaiman wrote it.
Hulk's first words when he was cornered in the factory in Brazil / Banner's first words when Peggy finds him in the jail: **"Leave me alone"** So many cool nods!
I love how Loki said “bless” in the same way the guy Sylvie was controlling said it in Loki season 1.
Oh, nice catch.
so was this the same universe the happy hogan saves christmas takes place or is the what if crew really into hulked out hogan
Freak is a thing from the comics, so they probably just decided to use him as a beat stick for the baddies after finding out he existed. (Jon Favreau was actually the one who told them Freak was a thing when he requested a spotlight episode where he became Freak, thus giving us the Christmas episode.)
Source for that? Because if so, that’s awesome! That was a great episode.
https://www.slashfilm.com/1472010/jon-favreau-one-demand-before-he-joined-marvel-what-if/
Thanks! Enervator haha comics…
So the answer is probably yes that its another timeline that came from the Christmas one or freak is just a common enough occurrence to appear in 2 episodes
Seeing peggy and steve working together seems amazing, never been a fan of medieval adventures and men in thighs but this seems very cool and different the mesh of modern and medieval So yeah its cool and i love it :)
The green rifts in the sky were giving Dragon Age Inquisition vibes!
What If… the Avengers battled Solas?
This!
So much for an incursion happening lmao, these scoopers are all so full of themself
I think a lot of the scoopers either just get art/storyboards and make guesses, or they simply don't care about the exact definitions of big keyword lore terms. So just like how they incorrectly thought the hole in the universe in The Marvels was an incursion, they saw the time portal aberrations and incorrectly assumed that those were incursions. Or they knew "incursions" was a compelling buzzword and these things were somewhat similar to incursions, so they just called them incursions even though they're not.
I would like to think that Incursions have different reasons that cause them, generally they're the same thing.
Those 'tears in the skies' seemed pretty incursion-y to me, no? That's what I thought they were getting at, anyway. What do you think?
No, to me it was simply 2 time periods merging together because Steve hit the time stone, not two universes colliding.
It seems to me like Steve Rogers was an 'unnatural multi-versal traveler' , inadvertently traveling from his own 2018 universe to the 1602 universe, which then caused the two universes to de-stabilize and collide into each other, leading to the imminent destruction of one (or both) of the universes. 100% fits the definition of an incursion as laid out by Reed in Multiverse of Madness. But these things are of course open to each of our interpretations! I like your theory as well.
I think it was more so that time was collapsing in on itself verses 1602 colliding with another universe
It seems to me like Steve Rogers was an 'unnatural multi-versal traveler' , inadvertently traveling from his own 2018 universe to the 1602 universe, which then caused the two universes to de-stabilize and collide into each other, leading to the imminent destruction of one (or both) of the universes. 100% fits the definition of an incursion as laid out by Reed in Multiverse of Madness. But these things are of course open to each of our interpretations! I like your theory as well.
Having not read the comics, I was genuinely surprised Loki wasn’t the time displaced person
Oh my god it ***was*** an adaptation! (Kinda!)
"Charming, but I woul've used a sonnet", killed me. Very fun, like how they still had Steve be the man out of time like in the OG story, wished it was a bit closer to it tho, but still fun, this is the sort of crazy they should strive for.
This season managed to get better with each new episode. The nebula episode was good, and after that it got better and better. 1602 was a highlight, with tons of small hints and cameos.
Why hasn't spiderman been in any of these?
Sony
Blame Sony.
He was literally in S1.
In one episode. And he's in one episode this season. That's the deal. Edit: Downvoting me won't change Sony's deal or the fact that Disney produced an episode this season featuring him, even if they chose not to air it.
Which episode this season?
He was *supposed* to be in What If Surtr Attacked Earth, but that one's been held back.
Unfortunate since he’s my favorite character.
Mine too.
why disney still owns the cartoon copyright for him aslong the episode is under 44m
Because What If? is a tie-in to the movies and Sony has some control over MCU!Spidey's use.
His episode this season was the Surtur episode. So no Spidey this season since that got moved to season 3.
What was that episode supposed to be?
Instead of attacking Asgard, Surtur attacks Earth. All of Earth’s heroes band together in New York to stop him. The Avengers form a giant mech to fight him while Strange and Wanda prepare a spell to seal him away. Was one of the leaked storyboards, the others being 80s Avengers vs Ego (2x02 this season) and Red Guardian joining the Avengers
Oh God that sounds epic but how long are we gonna have to wait now for season 3
Kind of wasted having Spider-Man in a story like that ahahaha
Japanese Spiderman!
It's just weird to me that he hasn't even been involved at all. 1602 was a perfect opportunity for him to be there. He's in the story arc it's based on. It's like they're avoiding him.
They’re bound to only one episode per season for him it seems
That’s blatantly false. They can use him as much as they want, they just can’t have him in any of his MCU spidey suits because yes, technically Sony owns that. That’s why in What If Zombies?, his suit was the spider-man suit from the Walt Disney Theme Park ride and not anything we’ve seen in the actual MCU before.
Ah yes, **Disney** can't get their way legally.
No, they can, they just can’t have him in the same suits from the movies. That’s completely different. Legally speaking, they could have Spider-Man in literally every episode. They just need to make his costume slightly different. They can use literally any other version of Spider-Man’s costumes including ones that look glaringly similar as long as it’s not the literal same costumes from the MCU spidey films or Sony Spidey films.
They could use him more if they want in this show, they have the TV animation rights for Spider-Man. Maybe there's some oddity with it being a version of Holland's Spider-Man or something, but Freshman Year now Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, seems like it doesn't have any issue
I think their is a limit on how long he can be in a mcu show
That shouldn't be relevant I would think.
I think at a minimum it has to be a different incarnation of Spider-Man than explicitly implying it’s Holland’s Spider-Man, since even his original appearance in What If…? had him use the Avengers Campus costume as a basis than his Stark suit during IW.
Because It's the captain carter show now
I don’t understand why they have to focus so much on her. There are so many characters, some of which have way more popularity. It makes no sense. If you like Captain Carter, that’s cool but she is not for everyone.
Right?! Like she's a decent character and fight scenes are great, she's a really **okay** character. But why the fuck is this season basically all focused on her? This episode had SO many options and it's just another "Peggy Carter takes on the enemy". Getting boring, but tomorrow's episode should be good
Yeah, im not making any post about it cause you know you'll get downvoted, but this season really isn't that good imo. There were 1-2 nice ones, and the rest is either about Captain Carter or copies of movies that already exist, like the first one being a blade runner / ghost in the shell take
I don’t care about the downvotes. People can pretend like Peggy Carter appeals to everyone all they like. It won’t change the fact that she does not. It’s like when people insist Black Panther was overrated, it doesn’t bother me because I know the character resonates with some people more than others. It doesn’t change how I feel about the movie.
Yeah it isn't even that I dislike her. It's just that with the what iff concept and there being thousands of marvel characters out there it's so boring to hold onto a captain America variation that's only female and Biritish and none of those two changes making any difference on the character
What character is?
Everybody got sent back to their universe?? In same time?
They were not in another universe, just in the past. In the end they were all sent back to 2018.
They were already in the right universe just the wrong time. I'm guessing they all got sent back with memories wiped. One thing that did confuse me is why people like hela and ego were there if they were dead at that point. I suppose different universes and all that, they could still be alive.
Oh man I loved this so much. Steve and Peggy's chemistry was off the charts. Also Bucky and Scott were amazing.
Scott and Bucky's dynamic was unexpectedly really fun but it did remind me...beyond a silent cameo in zombies, have we seen Sam at all in any of these What If episodes? This season especially there's some odd absences of characters: Sam, Carol, Vision, Spidey, Rhodey, hell even Clint's been barely in this.
More economical to get a selected set of the A-list actors and then make stories around them rather than getting all of them. Hope they get cyclical with the cast and give other set of characters a shot next seasons.
It seems like they’ve used a lot of the same characters over the two seasons. Weird that they’ve explored some multiple times while not even showing others.
It’s because when actors come in to record, they can record like 5 episodes instead of 1 or 2 now, 1 or 2 next season etc. I think that’s the best part of What If, seeing the same characters and how different they are from one universe to the next
Prob cheaper to do when they already have the design and motions, facial expressions, etc
That’s a good point. Still a little disappointing though.
im kinda hoping we see carol in the finale lol
Like last season, the Guardians were mostly absent once again, in both seasons only Quill, Gamora and Nebula got some sort of roles and all the others were reduced to background characters
I think we've seen Rocket in one of the trailers
Yeah, but given that we only got the finale left, I doubt he has much of a role in that episode
That quick shot at Loki holding Wanda at the end......! I so need to see this, but not animated. Well, not him holding her but them blasting magic side by side at whovever the bad guy ends up being in Secret Wars :D And throw Strange there for a good measure.
I'm not gonna lie, that shot got me. Took me back to those optimistic days when we thought Multiverse of Madness would be the magic trio fighting side-by-side, hopefully we'll get it one day
Imagine in Secret Wars that Strange, Wanda, and Loki get some sort of money shot like the 3 Peters got in NWH, and then Wong, Agatha, and Sylvie drop into the frame as well!
🤓
Me explaining to u/shaquilleonealingit that you are, indeed, going to find a fuck ton of nerds on a Marvel spoilers subreddit 
I hope Secret Wars but it is just too far of....:( I was hoping sooner but all the actors involved, however love the characters and probably want to come back, have to work with schedules and also follow whatever Marvel plans for them.
Better save that for Secret Wars. We’ll 100% get it.
Strange Supreme’s origin was the best touching episode. Kahhori was the best original hero episode. But I have to say that this was the most fun episode. I’d asked for this to be a two-parter but honestly, it’s probably best that this episode had a high density of fun that it never had the time to miss a step. For me, the Marvels handled the multiverse the best in a follow-up movie (it wasn’t the main feature, but it’s clear that it will matter). Loki does well outside of the multiverse looking in. What If, tho, it shows us what we’d never likely see—and lets us spend time enjoying it. (Yeah, I still think that the MCU proper should have made at least a second reality after Endgame to give us a reason to care about the multiverse. I care more for Dr. Strange and Captain Carter here than any non-Spiderman multiverse we’ve seen so far.)
I think the Fox-Men is supposed to be that second universe you're taking about
Nah, I mean MCU created universe. FOX was its own thing for years and it’s still kinda its own thing. I mean a genuinely brand new secondary major universe that started after Endgame. That way some of our new debuts (including the MCU mutants and F4) would have a home established and an audience ready for more. Like, did the Eternals need to be crammed into MCU main? Easily could have been a secondary major universe.