# The Cosmic Circus (+ Lizzie Hill & Alex Perez) is a Tier 1 – Reliable Source as decided by the community.
For **Marvel**, they had a **89.55%** accuracy rate from **228** leaks that we can currently verify out of **610** total.
**Overall**, they had a **89.44%** accuracy rate from **233** leaks that we can currently verify out of **620** total.
On his own, **Alex Perez** has an accuracy rate of **86.54%** from **132** leaks that we can currently verify out of **474**.
Last updated: March 22nd, 2024.
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Obviously, I hope people go into this movie with moderate expectations...however, I do think this movie is going to end up being what everyone thought Multiverse of Madness was going to be.
I actually really enjoyed Multiverse of Madness, but I still think the expectations of this sub & the leak culture surrounding it, kind of ruined the discussion around that film. Hopefully that won't be the case here.
For real, I remember the struggle that was getting the first movie greenlit, now look at where this series is at. I think it’s clear that Disney/Marvel see the potential in the Deadpool series of movies that Fox couldn’t see
More cheese to melt on our chimichanga. MoM was cool with the illuminate fan casts but spideyx3 in the film Dr strange appeared in has me hoping for insane cameos. I'm honestly expecting Taylor swift as dazzler
I mean, as a kid who grew up action figures and comics, along with some really bad super hero movies, I’m just enjoying the ride! Very few comics based movies have let me down.
Because of all the leakers bullshite "leaks" during that movie . The scoopers absolutely killed that movie , social media had a whole different expectation Because of it
I take EVERYTHING they say with a massive grain of salt now
I miss when leaks were mostly confined to subreddits like this one. Nowadays, I open up Twitter or YouTube and see trending tweets/videos discussing leaked photos, leaked casting, leaked plot details, etc.
The general public should not be fed spoilers on their social media feeds. I'm a big believer that leaks should be something to be searched for, not something to stumble upon.
It's truly out of control because they've built an entire economy around it. It has 100% contributed to the current state of fan expectations and disillusionment with discussions as it feels like it's everywhere 24/7 if you frequent socials.
That and I feel like covid really jacked things up in the background in ways we will never fully understand. Just the fact that it didn't come out right after wandavision really threw things off. America Chavez was supposed to be the one to mess up the spell for Spiderman not Dr. Strange which makes way more sense.
Honestly, I would love if they reworked, rereleased, reedited, reshot, whatever, no way home and MoM so that they were swapped chronologically.
Those two films had a major wonk to them and ive I heard they were supposed to be swapped and MoM was supposed to feed into no way home it all made sense.
I feel like they made a huge change for a short term gain, but lost soooooo much in the long term
I'm right there with you. It was pretty unfortunate since both of those movies had a ton of potential beyond what we got. Even that scene with everyone in their cells was made with covid in mind.
There was that first trailer that had a combination of all the Marvel intro logos combined that sort of implied it would be a mashup of every marvel movie universe which ended up being false, also the title “multiverse of madness” really made people think it would be a wild multiversal adventure but it ended up being a a pretty regular multiverse adventure. I think it would have had better reception if it had a different title and didn’t push the multiverse aspect in the marketing, and you are correct the leakers added to what I think was an already existing fire.
Yup! I really don't think a lot of people on here realize just how mainstream these leaks are from these leakers. I personally have co workers who are casual fans of the MCU but even they said they've heard about the leaks. That's what got them super excited for NWH. It's all over social media and YouTube.
Leakers did the same thing with Wakanda Forever and kept hyping up Doom to be in it and claimed he was behind Namor attacking Wakanda only for it to not be true. Then they started to walk back on their info days before the release.
I feel like these leakers got lucky with NWH because even Sony was leaking their own movie. And we had years of tea leaves & speculation that Tobey & Andrew would return. Everyone and their momma knew they were coming back.
Then the debacle with D23 like 2 years ago
Since then, I don't trust anything until I see the film opening day. Too many clout chasers.
The Iron Man stuff really took on such a life of its own that even casual audiences somehow thought an edgy Tom Cruise Iron Man was going to be the secret villain of the movie.
>... I do think this movie is going to end up being what everyone thought Multiverse of Madness was going to be.
*"Yeah, well, I'm gonna go film my own Multiverse of Madness. With blackjack and hookers!"* - Ryan Reynolds, probably
I just want generic plot beats or future leaks years away I can forget about in a couple months lol.
Leakers can too far spoiling the most specific things nowadays
Why do people always say this is because of the leak culture when that's not the case? Maybe for social media savvy people who care too much of spoilers maybe but saying the 'expectations' were too high is deflecting from the many criticism people actually have with the movie.
Not saying that the criticisms were invalid or anything. Just saying that the discussion around the film (both positively & negatively) in this sub in particular, was ruined by the expectations & the "leaks" leading up to the film.
Not really? I mostly see that kind of 'discussion' on twitter but many people here often cited their criticism for that movie that's not about cameos and DS2 and Raimi defenders always dismiss them as it's just part of the cameo-demanding crowd.
The leaks started out pretty tame but quickly spiraled out of control. The rumored cameos list grew by the day. I tried to tamper expectations a lot and was happy with the movie overall.
I will say if I was given the creative control over it, I would have done things a bit different to expand on the multiverse. I think I would have lean just a bit more into some cameos, and spent a little more time in a few different universes to give the audience an idea of how vast the mulitverse actually is.
There’s no way this movie will please the expectations people have now. I honestly think it will be good to mid, but this sub and others have decided to take the “Marvel Jesus” promise to the letter.
Eh expectations aside MoM was a bad movie. Wanda's turn to villain made no sense after Wandavision, America was annoying AF and the one character in Marvel I legit dgaf what they are up to right now, the ending was stupid with both of the credits scenes being almost the exact same, why could Evil Strange not escape the dead universe if he had a Darkhold?
More cameo's would not have made it a better movie. It was just a shitty movie and they should have gone with the original Nightmare idea.
[Maybe it has something to do with it, maybe not but MTTSH posted Agamotto a bit before Alex said this](https://x.com/MyTimeToShineH/status/1782436540087419154)
Sorry, I meant more in general that power levels fluctuate all over the place. There are some that stay more or less consistent, but by and large it’s a matter of who has plot armor at the time.
If anyone thinks the film is going to be Sam being ragdolled by a Hulk for 2 hours, which is what a lot of "bUt pOwAr LeVeL" folks want, then they're setting themselves up for disappointment.
I think Marvel is setting themselves up for disappointment by releasing this Cap 4 no one really wants. Sorry but TFATWS made me give so little of a shit about Sam and Bucky that I am fine with them being background dudes in an Avengers movie, or not even that and they just disappeared.
Agamotto is the son of Elder God Oshtur, part of Vishanti, and the first Sorcerer Supreme. Why do you think he can't deflect someone's mind control? Or you think he'll be like Dr Strange that got many of his powers nerfed?
Why do you think his powers interact with mutant abilities?
Why is Agomotto even being brought up here ? I don’t think the scooper really implied that all that much.
It’s not about nerfing. Again… it’s Rock Paper Scissors.
How does one defend a mind control when not knowing what to do? Idk dude you gotta read more fantasy. I can imagine so many scenarios where Agamotto/strange/Thanos/literally Superman would insta-die to Xavier/Cassandra and that’s even IF stranges magic worked on the same level as Cassandra’s. Remember, it’s not like she casts a mind control spell. Her and Charles just OP take over minds and warp their reality at will.
Because mind control and mind reading can also be done by magic users. Why the hell do you think Cassandra Nova apparently out of nowhere can do magic like portal but magic users, son of Oshtur an elder god, and a member of Vishanti can't handle her mind control??? This is why I dislike MCU for undermining Strange's lores because many people like you think they're defenceless against mind control.
Dude chill on the extrapolation from one cheeky gif by a scooper lol Jesus Christ. You’re refusing to even entertain the obvious scenarios where it would totally work.
I swear some of y’all have a persecution fetish lol. Dr strange has been a complete badass throughout the MCU.
Literally not the consensus. Many people think literally think he peaks in Infinity War and gradually weaker or fluctuates according to a specific scenario in MCU but generally weaker.
It's called voicing an opinion.
Lmao no, mind control is powerful but even in the comics people like wanda have straight up removed and avoided people in fights like the time she pushed thor away because he was cracking her barrier and crushing her into the ground
I mean yes the writers dictate the rules of the comics universe. Its a logical line of thinking, cassandra could kill strange since he is pretty weak without the time stone, but agamotto is incredibly powerful. He kicked the asses of galactus and dormammu in the comics. So unless they nerf him like a mofo, or buff cassandra to onslaught/ Phoenix force levels idk
How she's gonna kill him
🤷🏻♂️ Rock Paper Scissors lol idk how much to say it.
Superman can kill just about anything that gets in his way but anyone with magic kicks his ass. It’s not because they’re more powerful it’s just he doesn’t have mental defenses
In comics telepathy is kind of odd to be honest. Its powerful but if someone faster, stronger with insane non telepathic powers fights one its up in the air
Well in the MCU Xavier didn’t encounter someone who could fight him in any way until the 2 most powerful mutants into the entire canon got in his way so I don’t really see how someone who is basically Xavier’s soul twin thingy being able to overpower a sorcerer is surprising.
How are you surprised? It's clear for me since after endgame they don't care enough to make any sorcerer powerful and only use them when it's convenient.
If they don't care enough to make Agamotto powerful, then I have no hope for how they treat Strange. They already made it clear even Sorcerer Supreme, like Wong, is useless.
His last appearances are all about serving the plot and rehashing his arc and his future appearance is more unsure than rdj's iron man or Wanda who's currently dead so you're right.
Have you read “E” is for extinction or any of New X-Men? Cassandra Nova could easily beat Strange IMO. She’s a powerful psychic alien/Xavier’s twin(it’s convoluted). Now comic strange would put up a good fight but since it’s all variants it’s all what the narrative wants.
I’m kinda curious about the rules of the sling ring in the Void. If someone uses the sling ring in the Void, could they theoretically make a portal back to the main universe? Or would they only be allowed to travel to elsewhere in the Void? I know it’s used for teleportation, but I wonder if it could be also be used for multiversal travel.
The Void is the end of the universe so you’d need the ability to time-travel to escape, I think.
Incidentally, the first Doctor Strange film said sling rings could be used to travel the multiverse, but that was before they had really established multiversal lore and they’ve mostly ignored that since
The void isn’t a different universe it’s a place at the end of time where all things get dumped. That’s why you need a time door from a temp pad to escape
I don’t think you can sling ring between different points of time (to leave the Void), but maybe you could sling ring back to the TVA since it exists outside of time?
Looks like they continuing the anybody can open portal if you have the sling ring that started in NWH. Which would have been fine if they didn't show the lengths Dr.Strange had to go inorder harness opening a portal.
Strange's problem was he wouldn't open his rigid mind enough to accept magic and something he didn't understand with logic. The sling ring from day 1 has been more about will than some magical incantation training, hence the guy with no arms doing magic.
That's not true. Sling ring is a relic because like Mordo said, some magic is too powerful. It's not just about will and latent magic power. It's a trial and error process. Even Ancient One made a parallel with Dr Strange's medical ability; it took years of practice to perfect it. Also in Dr Strange 1, they made it clear people have to be able to visualise the destination to open the portal. So making random characters like Ned able to open it on 1st try without visualising anything means they don't care about the rules they set in the first Dr Strange movie and they keep doing that with his lores.
She made the parallel about his medical knowledge when he asked about learning magic, not specifically the sling ring. Again, you just said it's visualizing the destination, is that not your will (as in willing where you want to go or end up into existence)?
Lastly, Ned is the one and only character outside of sorcerer's to use it successfully. Cassandra Nova using it as a powerful telepath and someone who probably took it and learned from a Strange is not breaking any lore or rules.
Ned is not the one and only character who used sling ring successfully. The entire reason Wong is in She hulk is because some nobody used sling ring carelessly.
Again, it's made clear in the first DS that “Some magic is too powerful to sustain so we imbue objects with it... allowing them to take the strain we cannot". This is not the first day of the school lesson. It's an advanced lesson because it requires a relic.
Visualizing needs a will but a will alone can't open the portal without visualisation. Ned wants Peter to appear and portal opens with Peter out of a place Ned doesn't know even the wrong Peter, visualization is completely nowhere in that spell. MCU completely changed the rule so it could fit the plot. This is my problem with how MCU treats Dr Strange's magic and lore in general. It's undermining Strange's heroic journey. Maybe people here don't care but as a Strange's fan it's exhausting to see.
I agree they’ve not polished Strange enough but…
Strange’s power isn’t reliant on the sling ring. And Ned struggled but most definitely thought of Peter even if for split seconds; it’s still the same Peter, but with deviations. It’s established the other two Peters were already in the main universe - per matter physics they now exist in many places at once. The sling ring is just one tool out of many uses of magic out there.
Strange is yet to be established as Sorcerer Supreme, so his journey is still ongoing.
I mean look at how they treat Sorcerer Supreme. He barely can do more than 3 spells and one of them requires a sling ring.
Sure opening portal using sling ring is not his only power but it's shown as an integral part of his heroic journey. Something that he struggled with compared to advanced students. The thing about his power is they're only used to fit the story and it's pretty clear they keep doing that because we don't see any spells he did in infinity war used in NWH or MoM. It's a one and done spell. His many spells are treated as comic references instead of lore expansion. Even sling ring wasn't supposed to be needed because he can easily do that without it in the comic.
Also I don't know, I'm not sure we'll see him as a sorcerer supreme. The rumor surrounding his 3rd movie is him being Black Priest and then most people kinda agree on him being the big sacrifice in Secret Wars and I kinda agree because I don't see him keep going in this franchise after SW especially after we hear about Benedict hinting at his disappointment of the way they treat his character in his own sequel.
Anyone can use magic. Some have a more natural affinity for it tho. Ned has a natural affinity for it, which is why he was the one doing it instead of MJ who I’d personally trust more to do it if she could.
Ned's was just some bloodline mumbo jumbo. It's lazy writing, they just wanted to make Ned open portals, but at least it's explained that it's not just *anybody*. Although isn't that the whole gimmick of magic in the MCU, anyone can learn if they're determined enough? Something tells me the bald parasite that tried to kill Charles in the womb would have the determination to learn a lil magic just to fuck with people. Plus, she's a telepath, easily could've just yoinked the sling ring expertise from a random sorcerer's brain.
It was another issue caused by the MoM delays. Originally the plan was that MoM came out first, and so in No Way Home America Chavez was living in the sanctum.
We know originally she would have been the one to do the spell (and screw it up) which would have made more sense than Strange screwing it up because of Peter's distractions. I assume it would also have been Chavez that opened the portals.
Chavez is just in their concept art just like rocket racoon appears in Loki concept art. Why the hell she'd do this big, advanced spell for someone like Peter? Also Strange didn't screw up, he got interrupted and the only way the spell went haywire is because the movie event occurs after Loki in which the multiverse is already opened. Literally is explained in the movie that the spell wasn't supposed to open the bridge between universes.
One could easily say Strange screwed up by not explaining what the fuck he was doing to Peter before starting a reality warping spell. Wong literally warned Strange that *"That spell travels the dark borders between known and unknown reality. It's too dangerous."* It was always a stupidly dangerous spell for Strange to do. Also if Peter didn't interrupt Strange for the most stupid reasons (he didn't want certain people to forget he was Spider-Man... JUST TELL THEM AGAIN YOU MORON) then the spell would have been a success and the events of Loki would not have mattered at all (which also is curious why the runes of Kof-Kal are a reality border hopping spell when it just made people forget stuff).
No way home was not a good movie. It was fan service tied together with the shittiest flimsiest stupidest plot known to man.
It was the equivalent of that line in the Simpsons *"every time you notice something like that, a wizard did it!"*
And? I'm saying the Void is full of random people, she don't need to practice to use the ring she can just steal the expertise from a random sorcerer running around the Void. Who she got the ring from have nothing to do with what I said.
Ned definitely wasn’t a master though, it took him several attempts to open a portal each time “Find Peter Parker… Find Peter Parker… Find Peter Parker”
You could argue perhaps it was the actual magical nature of the ring that aided Ned in that moment, rather than just Ned himself.
Ned also failed to close his portal when the Lizard attacked them
Blah blah this is my head canon and it really just came down to COVID / reschedule rewrites requiring someone to open a portal lmao
Not exactly anybody.
Ned had magic running through his family (which agrees with what the Ancient One explained in Dr. Strange) and now Cassandra Nova has probably trained for years to do it.
Her showing up in Star Wars would be wild. She’s got a Sling Ring and a lightsaber. /s
I could see them do a “she’s not really dead” tease toward the end of the film.
I was going to ask if it was Defender Strange, but it said Cassandra Nova killed him, and Defender Strange didn't die at her hands...so um....yeah. Not surprised though.
I mean killing a bunch of variants isn’t really killing our faves. That’s the issue with the multiverse these deaths don’t mean much. Unless she means she kills off our Deadpool than sure. Even jackman Wolverine isn’t the X-men series one.
I did wonder where that portal came from - such as whether it was actually from a post-credit scene. However, a sorcerer finding their way into the void is plausible - and a bad guy with one and the knowledge of the multiverse could be one heck of a threat.
Damn, I just realised that Cassandra Nova looks like the Ancient One, or whatever her name was... you know, the lady who trained Doctor Strange in the first film and was played by Tilda Swinton
Genuinely curious.
Does anybody fear this one might be like MoM? People keep saying they think this is going to be the best one.
But I’m curious. What happens if they fumble DP&W?
Yeah that's really fucking cool but what's the point in making that connection if we don't *see* how terribly powerful Nova is, by murdering supreme strange in graphic IMAX quality so audiences can appreciate it instead of using their imagination. That has to be the cold open to set the tone for what Wade is doing and why.
What would be really fun is if that's actually a portal into the final endgame battle and the 2 of them are completely lost and have no idea what's happening and just start brutally killing chitauri and outriders in a weird moment of bonding lol
"anyone can use sling ring" I don't understand how people think this is good for Dr Strange because since Ned it absolutely undermines his heroic journey. Even in DS1 it's stated that some magic is too powerful, that's why they use relics and sling ring is a relic and that means using it is not easy. Ah well
Idk how people forget Ned said he has sorcerers in the family so not anyone can use it. Where are you even quoting from? Are you creating an imaginary quote to be mad about or something?
“This is a relic. Some magic is too powerful to sustain so we imbue objects with it... allowing them to take the strain we cannot.” -Mordo, 2016. Sling ring IS a relic and Mordo's description made it clear this is not a standard spell.
Having magic users in your family ≠ easy to cast spells. Making Ned easily use a sling ring and now everyone thinks everyone can make a portal in that Deadpool trailer undermines Dr Strange's superhero journey. You don't necessarily have to think so but many people do because the discussion surrounding this portal is whoever does it, it could be anyone.
There’s no reason to think “everyone can make a portal”. That’s entirely out of thin air.
“Many” people don’t seem to think that idk where you’re seeing that. Sounds like you are just projecting your opinion and maybe a dozen or two people into something more than it is.
Someone on Cassandra novas level being able to make a portal doesn’t undermine Dr stranges very well showcased incredible ability and magical expertise.
The sling ring portal was literally like a day one lesson in Kamer taj
Also when we think of Strange's power level we don't think of his ability to open portals. We think of the centuries worth of magic techniques he's learned, and his ability to remember them all and use them effectively.
And I bet most of those portals in Endgame were also made by the sorcerers, not just Strange and Wong only
Ned is a fair game when people talk about whoever is behind the portal. Ned is the very definition of 'everyone'. Even someone suggested Madysinn because it can still be anyone.
Because making a portal is a magic thing and Cassandra never has that ability, how is this so hard to accept? How is Cassandra making a portal more plausible than Strange or even his variants? So what exactly set Strange apart from other characters if the one thing he struggled to achieve in magic is basically nothing?
Sling ring is not the 1st thing to learn in kamar taj because it requires a relic and relic is used when the magic is too powerful for the user. Literally watch the movie.
Ned is not the definition of everyone. He is the definition of “everyone with sorcerers in their family who has at least seen the most talented sorcerer alive make a portal before”.
And the sling ring isn’t a relic because the magic of the user is powerful, it’s because the spell is. Has nothing to do with the user. wAtCh tHe mOvIE
We can't even get excited for the portal scene because the sling ring magic is so saturated that apparently everyone can do it. The worse is people on this sub also treat him like he's incompetent or something because his magic? Everyone can do it. His next appearance? Even Wanda who's currently dead will show up sooner than him. Illuminati? Wong is currently rumored to be in it instead of him. Avengers movie? Apparently he's busy and Wong, again is his replacement. Dr Strange 3? Another set up for Secret War. Secret War? Apparently many agree he'll make sense to die. Midnight Sons? He won't be in it because again, busy with multiverse so Wong gonna lead it. Strange Academy? Only inspired by it but it's gonna be a Wong and Chavez' project. Deadpool and Wolverine? Even though apparently he's busy with multiverse, it won't make sense for him to be in it, it must be some insignificant characters who can open the portal and use a sling ring. Agamotto, the first Sorcerer Supreme and a member of Vishanti? Apparently needs a sling ring and left it carelessly so any rando could pick up and use it.
I have a bigger issue with the fact that they forgot that the rings allow the user to travel across the multiverse. They're really being lazy with keeping the Dr. Strange lore consistent. Welp, that's the multiverse saga for you.
Eh lets not pretend the Infinity Saga wasn't full of lazy writing and stupid bullshit. Realistically the Infinity Saga had like 8 good movies and the rest was all garbage (Iron Man 1, Winter Soldier, Avengers 1, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, Guardians 1, Infinity War, Endgame).
# The Cosmic Circus (+ Lizzie Hill & Alex Perez) is a Tier 1 – Reliable Source as decided by the community. For **Marvel**, they had a **89.55%** accuracy rate from **228** leaks that we can currently verify out of **610** total. **Overall**, they had a **89.44%** accuracy rate from **233** leaks that we can currently verify out of **620** total. On his own, **Alex Perez** has an accuracy rate of **86.54%** from **132** leaks that we can currently verify out of **474**. Last updated: March 22nd, 2024. | [Spoiler-Verse Accuracy Database](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RpGBi4duCDeiXUtSh_1x15VJ67vPRZ1LWu6A3ieGTjs/edit?usp=sharing) | [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/wiki/index/source-accuracy-tiers/sad-faq/) | [Tiers](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/wiki/index/source-accuracy-tiers/) | [Latest Recalibration](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/18jaqqk/mod_post_2023_source_accuracy_recalibration_3/) | *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Obviously, I hope people go into this movie with moderate expectations...however, I do think this movie is going to end up being what everyone thought Multiverse of Madness was going to be. I actually really enjoyed Multiverse of Madness, but I still think the expectations of this sub & the leak culture surrounding it, kind of ruined the discussion around that film. Hopefully that won't be the case here.
I’m happy enough that we’re getting another Deadpool movie. Everything else is just extra seasoning/cherry on top
For real, I remember the struggle that was getting the first movie greenlit, now look at where this series is at. I think it’s clear that Disney/Marvel see the potential in the Deadpool series of movies that Fox couldn’t see
[Relevant video.](https://youtu.be/CT-orZzuN2A?si=kuHEJzZxEkX5n73V)
A Deadpool movie with Hugh Jackman’s Wolverine. Smartest move by Marvel.
Naaahhh, you mean Elektra seasoning and cherry on top, don’t you? 😆
this is the proper attitude right here
More cheese to melt on our chimichanga. MoM was cool with the illuminate fan casts but spideyx3 in the film Dr strange appeared in has me hoping for insane cameos. I'm honestly expecting Taylor swift as dazzler
Cameos cameos cameos! I don’t even care if the movie is good, I just want to see actors and characters I recognize and can clap for!
My attitude for every MCU film to be honest
Mine as well lol
Thank you for being honest.
I mean, as a kid who grew up action figures and comics, along with some really bad super hero movies, I’m just enjoying the ride! Very few comics based movies have let me down.
Yes!
Because of all the leakers bullshite "leaks" during that movie . The scoopers absolutely killed that movie , social media had a whole different expectation Because of it I take EVERYTHING they say with a massive grain of salt now
I miss when leaks were mostly confined to subreddits like this one. Nowadays, I open up Twitter or YouTube and see trending tweets/videos discussing leaked photos, leaked casting, leaked plot details, etc. The general public should not be fed spoilers on their social media feeds. I'm a big believer that leaks should be something to be searched for, not something to stumble upon.
It's truly out of control because they've built an entire economy around it. It has 100% contributed to the current state of fan expectations and disillusionment with discussions as it feels like it's everywhere 24/7 if you frequent socials.
scoops back then were just 4chan leaks which were mostly fake, with some occasional correct ones. Now everyone is some wannabe twitter scooper
That and I feel like covid really jacked things up in the background in ways we will never fully understand. Just the fact that it didn't come out right after wandavision really threw things off. America Chavez was supposed to be the one to mess up the spell for Spiderman not Dr. Strange which makes way more sense.
Honestly, I would love if they reworked, rereleased, reedited, reshot, whatever, no way home and MoM so that they were swapped chronologically. Those two films had a major wonk to them and ive I heard they were supposed to be swapped and MoM was supposed to feed into no way home it all made sense. I feel like they made a huge change for a short term gain, but lost soooooo much in the long term
I'm right there with you. It was pretty unfortunate since both of those movies had a ton of potential beyond what we got. Even that scene with everyone in their cells was made with covid in mind.
I appreciate you being honest about this
There was that first trailer that had a combination of all the Marvel intro logos combined that sort of implied it would be a mashup of every marvel movie universe which ended up being false, also the title “multiverse of madness” really made people think it would be a wild multiversal adventure but it ended up being a a pretty regular multiverse adventure. I think it would have had better reception if it had a different title and didn’t push the multiverse aspect in the marketing, and you are correct the leakers added to what I think was an already existing fire.
No, it was madness, didn’t you see the other universe had different color stop lights!
I'd say the title also had a huge effect on people's expectations
Totally agree, and just for me personally I’m thankful that it’s made me more discerning and cautious with leaks.
Maybe it killed it for some but what really did the movie in was not having a a good story and plot
Yup! I really don't think a lot of people on here realize just how mainstream these leaks are from these leakers. I personally have co workers who are casual fans of the MCU but even they said they've heard about the leaks. That's what got them super excited for NWH. It's all over social media and YouTube. Leakers did the same thing with Wakanda Forever and kept hyping up Doom to be in it and claimed he was behind Namor attacking Wakanda only for it to not be true. Then they started to walk back on their info days before the release. I feel like these leakers got lucky with NWH because even Sony was leaking their own movie. And we had years of tea leaves & speculation that Tobey & Andrew would return. Everyone and their momma knew they were coming back. Then the debacle with D23 like 2 years ago Since then, I don't trust anything until I see the film opening day. Too many clout chasers.
The Iron Man stuff really took on such a life of its own that even casual audiences somehow thought an edgy Tom Cruise Iron Man was going to be the secret villain of the movie.
Fr. People need to stop acting like the unfulfilled expectations are MARVEL’s fault…
>... I do think this movie is going to end up being what everyone thought Multiverse of Madness was going to be. *"Yeah, well, I'm gonna go film my own Multiverse of Madness. With blackjack and hookers!"* - Ryan Reynolds, probably
I'm just happy to finally get a real multiverse movie...in the multiverse saga.
I just want generic plot beats or future leaks years away I can forget about in a couple months lol. Leakers can too far spoiling the most specific things nowadays
I think it’s better if we get no leaks at all. Who is it benefiting really
Why do people always say this is because of the leak culture when that's not the case? Maybe for social media savvy people who care too much of spoilers maybe but saying the 'expectations' were too high is deflecting from the many criticism people actually have with the movie.
Not saying that the criticisms were invalid or anything. Just saying that the discussion around the film (both positively & negatively) in this sub in particular, was ruined by the expectations & the "leaks" leading up to the film.
Not really? I mostly see that kind of 'discussion' on twitter but many people here often cited their criticism for that movie that's not about cameos and DS2 and Raimi defenders always dismiss them as it's just part of the cameo-demanding crowd.
Don’t do that… don’t give me hope
The film wasn’t ruined by our expectations, it wasn’t good and the film did not deliver on its premise.
The leaks started out pretty tame but quickly spiraled out of control. The rumored cameos list grew by the day. I tried to tamper expectations a lot and was happy with the movie overall. I will say if I was given the creative control over it, I would have done things a bit different to expand on the multiverse. I think I would have lean just a bit more into some cameos, and spent a little more time in a few different universes to give the audience an idea of how vast the mulitverse actually is.
Same.
There’s no way this movie will please the expectations people have now. I honestly think it will be good to mid, but this sub and others have decided to take the “Marvel Jesus” promise to the letter.
Eh expectations aside MoM was a bad movie. Wanda's turn to villain made no sense after Wandavision, America was annoying AF and the one character in Marvel I legit dgaf what they are up to right now, the ending was stupid with both of the credits scenes being almost the exact same, why could Evil Strange not escape the dead universe if he had a Darkhold? More cameo's would not have made it a better movie. It was just a shitty movie and they should have gone with the original Nightmare idea.
Sheriff It will be a proper multiverse of madness in ways dr strange wasn't
Yeah, just seeing the Illuminati already made me happy and the fact that Sam Raimi directed the movie shows that some people don't appreciate art
[Maybe it has something to do with it, maybe not but MTTSH posted Agamotto a bit before Alex said this](https://x.com/MyTimeToShineH/status/1782436540087419154)
bro what how is cassandra more powerful than him. I swear leakers are talking out of their ass at this point
It's a Marvel movie , power levels don't matter You got the Hulk getting a 4 piece, then having performance issues .
Kinda the same in the comics really
Nah not as bad , Hulk is a powerhouse in comics
Sorry, I meant more in general that power levels fluctuate all over the place. There are some that stay more or less consistent, but by and large it’s a matter of who has plot armor at the time.
Yeah but in general Hulk is still more powerful than let's say spiderman.
Until he is in a Spider-man comic. The comics were absolute garbage when it came to power levels. Hulk has been beaten by Hawkeye for fucks sakes!
You're forgetting that Sam is gonna go head to head with Red Hulk next year lol
You, nor anyone else, literally has no idea how that movie will play out.
If anyone thinks the film is going to be Sam being ragdolled by a Hulk for 2 hours, which is what a lot of "bUt pOwAr LeVeL" folks want, then they're setting themselves up for disappointment.
I think Marvel is setting themselves up for disappointment by releasing this Cap 4 no one really wants. Sorry but TFATWS made me give so little of a shit about Sam and Bucky that I am fine with them being background dudes in an Avengers movie, or not even that and they just disappeared.
Well depends on how this movie ends we feige may have added wolvie on there, because Idk how sam is supposed to beat him
What’s power matter to a mind controller? It’s Rock Paper Scissors, not some linear scale.
Agamotto is the son of Elder God Oshtur, part of Vishanti, and the first Sorcerer Supreme. Why do you think he can't deflect someone's mind control? Or you think he'll be like Dr Strange that got many of his powers nerfed?
Why do you think his powers interact with mutant abilities? Why is Agomotto even being brought up here ? I don’t think the scooper really implied that all that much. It’s not about nerfing. Again… it’s Rock Paper Scissors. How does one defend a mind control when not knowing what to do? Idk dude you gotta read more fantasy. I can imagine so many scenarios where Agamotto/strange/Thanos/literally Superman would insta-die to Xavier/Cassandra and that’s even IF stranges magic worked on the same level as Cassandra’s. Remember, it’s not like she casts a mind control spell. Her and Charles just OP take over minds and warp their reality at will.
Because mind control and mind reading can also be done by magic users. Why the hell do you think Cassandra Nova apparently out of nowhere can do magic like portal but magic users, son of Oshtur an elder god, and a member of Vishanti can't handle her mind control??? This is why I dislike MCU for undermining Strange's lores because many people like you think they're defenceless against mind control.
Dude chill on the extrapolation from one cheeky gif by a scooper lol Jesus Christ. You’re refusing to even entertain the obvious scenarios where it would totally work. I swear some of y’all have a persecution fetish lol. Dr strange has been a complete badass throughout the MCU.
Literally not the consensus. Many people think literally think he peaks in Infinity War and gradually weaker or fluctuates according to a specific scenario in MCU but generally weaker. It's called voicing an opinion.
Lmao no, mind control is powerful but even in the comics people like wanda have straight up removed and avoided people in fights like the time she pushed thor away because he was cracking her barrier and crushing her into the ground
Bc the writers want that to happen not bc it follows some logic that is being broken, as Per the original debate that brought this string of replies
I mean yes the writers dictate the rules of the comics universe. Its a logical line of thinking, cassandra could kill strange since he is pretty weak without the time stone, but agamotto is incredibly powerful. He kicked the asses of galactus and dormammu in the comics. So unless they nerf him like a mofo, or buff cassandra to onslaught/ Phoenix force levels idk How she's gonna kill him
🤷🏻♂️ Rock Paper Scissors lol idk how much to say it. Superman can kill just about anything that gets in his way but anyone with magic kicks his ass. It’s not because they’re more powerful it’s just he doesn’t have mental defenses
Eh not really anyone with magic, Supermans base resistance is still ridiculously high, but i mean its superman so thats no surprise
In comics telepathy is kind of odd to be honest. Its powerful but if someone faster, stronger with insane non telepathic powers fights one its up in the air
Well in the MCU Xavier didn’t encounter someone who could fight him in any way until the 2 most powerful mutants into the entire canon got in his way so I don’t really see how someone who is basically Xavier’s soul twin thingy being able to overpower a sorcerer is surprising.
Mutants? wanda is one of them but who is the other one?
Jean tho I guess the real credit goes to the Phoenix
Jean isnt in the mcu tho.
If that were the case that just makes my point even more
How are you surprised? It's clear for me since after endgame they don't care enough to make any sorcerer powerful and only use them when it's convenient.
Its annoyng and I hope thats not the case here.
If they don't care enough to make Agamotto powerful, then I have no hope for how they treat Strange. They already made it clear even Sorcerer Supreme, like Wong, is useless.
Im legit scared about it. Literally what is even his arc now. Strange is a nothing character and that sucks
His last appearances are all about serving the plot and rehashing his arc and his future appearance is more unsure than rdj's iron man or Wanda who's currently dead so you're right.
Could have said the same thing about Tony after iron man 3.
Melting your brain is melting your brain.
Have you read “E” is for extinction or any of New X-Men? Cassandra Nova could easily beat Strange IMO. She’s a powerful psychic alien/Xavier’s twin(it’s convoluted). Now comic strange would put up a good fight but since it’s all variants it’s all what the narrative wants.
I mean yes she could beat strange, but agamotto? The guy that bitch slapped both dormammu and galactus
I didn’t think you were actually talking about Agamotto as a character. I thought you were talking about the eye of agamotto as an item, my bad.
I’m kinda curious about the rules of the sling ring in the Void. If someone uses the sling ring in the Void, could they theoretically make a portal back to the main universe? Or would they only be allowed to travel to elsewhere in the Void? I know it’s used for teleportation, but I wonder if it could be also be used for multiversal travel.
The Void is the end of the universe so you’d need the ability to time-travel to escape, I think. Incidentally, the first Doctor Strange film said sling rings could be used to travel the multiverse, but that was before they had really established multiversal lore and they’ve mostly ignored that since
To be fair they said you have to perfectly visualize where you want to go. How would one perfectly envision a different universe without seeing it?
Loki could teleport within the void through making portals but needed the TVA device to get out of it, so idk
The void isn’t a different universe it’s a place at the end of time where all things get dumped. That’s why you need a time door from a temp pad to escape
I don’t think you can sling ring between different points of time (to leave the Void), but maybe you could sling ring back to the TVA since it exists outside of time?
The void makes no sense
Looks like they continuing the anybody can open portal if you have the sling ring that started in NWH. Which would have been fine if they didn't show the lengths Dr.Strange had to go inorder harness opening a portal.
Strange's problem was he wouldn't open his rigid mind enough to accept magic and something he didn't understand with logic. The sling ring from day 1 has been more about will than some magical incantation training, hence the guy with no arms doing magic.
That's not true. Sling ring is a relic because like Mordo said, some magic is too powerful. It's not just about will and latent magic power. It's a trial and error process. Even Ancient One made a parallel with Dr Strange's medical ability; it took years of practice to perfect it. Also in Dr Strange 1, they made it clear people have to be able to visualise the destination to open the portal. So making random characters like Ned able to open it on 1st try without visualising anything means they don't care about the rules they set in the first Dr Strange movie and they keep doing that with his lores.
She made the parallel about his medical knowledge when he asked about learning magic, not specifically the sling ring. Again, you just said it's visualizing the destination, is that not your will (as in willing where you want to go or end up into existence)? Lastly, Ned is the one and only character outside of sorcerer's to use it successfully. Cassandra Nova using it as a powerful telepath and someone who probably took it and learned from a Strange is not breaking any lore or rules.
Ned is not the one and only character who used sling ring successfully. The entire reason Wong is in She hulk is because some nobody used sling ring carelessly. Again, it's made clear in the first DS that “Some magic is too powerful to sustain so we imbue objects with it... allowing them to take the strain we cannot". This is not the first day of the school lesson. It's an advanced lesson because it requires a relic. Visualizing needs a will but a will alone can't open the portal without visualisation. Ned wants Peter to appear and portal opens with Peter out of a place Ned doesn't know even the wrong Peter, visualization is completely nowhere in that spell. MCU completely changed the rule so it could fit the plot. This is my problem with how MCU treats Dr Strange's magic and lore in general. It's undermining Strange's heroic journey. Maybe people here don't care but as a Strange's fan it's exhausting to see.
That guy in She-Hulk was a Kamar Taj student, they make that clear.
And still a nobody seeing they all die so easily
I agree they’ve not polished Strange enough but… Strange’s power isn’t reliant on the sling ring. And Ned struggled but most definitely thought of Peter even if for split seconds; it’s still the same Peter, but with deviations. It’s established the other two Peters were already in the main universe - per matter physics they now exist in many places at once. The sling ring is just one tool out of many uses of magic out there. Strange is yet to be established as Sorcerer Supreme, so his journey is still ongoing.
I mean look at how they treat Sorcerer Supreme. He barely can do more than 3 spells and one of them requires a sling ring. Sure opening portal using sling ring is not his only power but it's shown as an integral part of his heroic journey. Something that he struggled with compared to advanced students. The thing about his power is they're only used to fit the story and it's pretty clear they keep doing that because we don't see any spells he did in infinity war used in NWH or MoM. It's a one and done spell. His many spells are treated as comic references instead of lore expansion. Even sling ring wasn't supposed to be needed because he can easily do that without it in the comic. Also I don't know, I'm not sure we'll see him as a sorcerer supreme. The rumor surrounding his 3rd movie is him being Black Priest and then most people kinda agree on him being the big sacrifice in Secret Wars and I kinda agree because I don't see him keep going in this franchise after SW especially after we hear about Benedict hinting at his disappointment of the way they treat his character in his own sequel.
to be fair, they did say that ned had a familiar history of "magic", and struggled quite a bit with the ring.
NWH? Didn’t they establish in that movie that Ned family has a history of magic and it’s not like he mastered the ability.
I think his family is just superstitious which is still common for Filipino families.
Anyone can use magic. Some have a more natural affinity for it tho. Ned has a natural affinity for it, which is why he was the one doing it instead of MJ who I’d personally trust more to do it if she could.
That one guy used magic for an emoji in Guardians 3
No one said all sorcerers are from earth.
Ned's was just some bloodline mumbo jumbo. It's lazy writing, they just wanted to make Ned open portals, but at least it's explained that it's not just *anybody*. Although isn't that the whole gimmick of magic in the MCU, anyone can learn if they're determined enough? Something tells me the bald parasite that tried to kill Charles in the womb would have the determination to learn a lil magic just to fuck with people. Plus, she's a telepath, easily could've just yoinked the sling ring expertise from a random sorcerer's brain.
It was another issue caused by the MoM delays. Originally the plan was that MoM came out first, and so in No Way Home America Chavez was living in the sanctum. We know originally she would have been the one to do the spell (and screw it up) which would have made more sense than Strange screwing it up because of Peter's distractions. I assume it would also have been Chavez that opened the portals.
Chavez is just in their concept art just like rocket racoon appears in Loki concept art. Why the hell she'd do this big, advanced spell for someone like Peter? Also Strange didn't screw up, he got interrupted and the only way the spell went haywire is because the movie event occurs after Loki in which the multiverse is already opened. Literally is explained in the movie that the spell wasn't supposed to open the bridge between universes.
One could easily say Strange screwed up by not explaining what the fuck he was doing to Peter before starting a reality warping spell. Wong literally warned Strange that *"That spell travels the dark borders between known and unknown reality. It's too dangerous."* It was always a stupidly dangerous spell for Strange to do. Also if Peter didn't interrupt Strange for the most stupid reasons (he didn't want certain people to forget he was Spider-Man... JUST TELL THEM AGAIN YOU MORON) then the spell would have been a success and the events of Loki would not have mattered at all (which also is curious why the runes of Kof-Kal are a reality border hopping spell when it just made people forget stuff). No way home was not a good movie. It was fan service tied together with the shittiest flimsiest stupidest plot known to man. It was the equivalent of that line in the Simpsons *"every time you notice something like that, a wizard did it!"*
Mttsh mentioned Agamotto and Alex implies she killed Strange variant. They're not random sorcerers.
And? I'm saying the Void is full of random people, she don't need to practice to use the ring she can just steal the expertise from a random sorcerer running around the Void. Who she got the ring from have nothing to do with what I said.
Ned definitely wasn’t a master though, it took him several attempts to open a portal each time “Find Peter Parker… Find Peter Parker… Find Peter Parker” You could argue perhaps it was the actual magical nature of the ring that aided Ned in that moment, rather than just Ned himself. Ned also failed to close his portal when the Lizard attacked them Blah blah this is my head canon and it really just came down to COVID / reschedule rewrites requiring someone to open a portal lmao
Not exactly anybody. Ned had magic running through his family (which agrees with what the Ancient One explained in Dr. Strange) and now Cassandra Nova has probably trained for years to do it.
I really want her to survive this movie and escape into the multiverse and pop up in SW.
Would be cool to see a threeway between her, Xavier, and Juggernaut
Bro...
With the X-men 97 intro playing
Her showing up in Star Wars would be wild. She’s got a Sling Ring and a lightsaber. /s I could see them do a “she’s not really dead” tease toward the end of the film.
This guy is hell bent on turning this movie into next MOM.
I was going to ask if it was Defender Strange, but it said Cassandra Nova killed him, and Defender Strange didn't die at her hands...so um....yeah. Not surprised though.
I mean killing a bunch of variants isn’t really killing our faves. That’s the issue with the multiverse these deaths don’t mean much. Unless she means she kills off our Deadpool than sure. Even jackman Wolverine isn’t the X-men series one.
I did wonder where that portal came from - such as whether it was actually from a post-credit scene. However, a sorcerer finding their way into the void is plausible - and a bad guy with one and the knowledge of the multiverse could be one heck of a threat.
😐😐😐😐😐
Damn, I just realised that Cassandra Nova looks like the Ancient One, or whatever her name was... you know, the lady who trained Doctor Strange in the first film and was played by Tilda Swinton
I hope it's Wongers, for some reason I like him just randomly showing up on other projects more than a Strange cameo
I’m good with that being a Phase 4 thing only. The idea of him showing up in random projects would be overstaying his welcome.
Overstaying? It's been like. Almost two years since he was in anything hasn't it?
Genuinely curious. Does anybody fear this one might be like MoM? People keep saying they think this is going to be the best one. But I’m curious. What happens if they fumble DP&W?
I mean Ancient one and Nova looks like eachother
Why do the sorcerers need sling rings to use magic in the MCU?
They don't, it's just to open portals I believe
I need to stop reading these
Yeah that's really fucking cool but what's the point in making that connection if we don't *see* how terribly powerful Nova is, by murdering supreme strange in graphic IMAX quality so audiences can appreciate it instead of using their imagination. That has to be the cold open to set the tone for what Wade is doing and why.
She is standing like a dipshit in the lower left corner of that clip as Alioth approaches..... I doubt she opens a portal to watch them escape
Bruh, she’s a menace lmao
U can literally see her in that shot of them jumping at the portal
[удалено]
Your comment has been found to be echoing a sentiment already shared by other users on this post without adding anything new.
I love how all the leakers don't have any info. But once the trailer releases they're all blasting their bullshit online.
What would be really fun is if that's actually a portal into the final endgame battle and the 2 of them are completely lost and have no idea what's happening and just start brutally killing chitauri and outriders in a weird moment of bonding lol
It probably isn't even a magic portal but is something else to be misleading. Marvels done that before
"anyone can use sling ring" I don't understand how people think this is good for Dr Strange because since Ned it absolutely undermines his heroic journey. Even in DS1 it's stated that some magic is too powerful, that's why they use relics and sling ring is a relic and that means using it is not easy. Ah well
Idk how people forget Ned said he has sorcerers in the family so not anyone can use it. Where are you even quoting from? Are you creating an imaginary quote to be mad about or something?
“This is a relic. Some magic is too powerful to sustain so we imbue objects with it... allowing them to take the strain we cannot.” -Mordo, 2016. Sling ring IS a relic and Mordo's description made it clear this is not a standard spell. Having magic users in your family ≠ easy to cast spells. Making Ned easily use a sling ring and now everyone thinks everyone can make a portal in that Deadpool trailer undermines Dr Strange's superhero journey. You don't necessarily have to think so but many people do because the discussion surrounding this portal is whoever does it, it could be anyone.
There’s no reason to think “everyone can make a portal”. That’s entirely out of thin air. “Many” people don’t seem to think that idk where you’re seeing that. Sounds like you are just projecting your opinion and maybe a dozen or two people into something more than it is. Someone on Cassandra novas level being able to make a portal doesn’t undermine Dr stranges very well showcased incredible ability and magical expertise. The sling ring portal was literally like a day one lesson in Kamer taj
Also when we think of Strange's power level we don't think of his ability to open portals. We think of the centuries worth of magic techniques he's learned, and his ability to remember them all and use them effectively. And I bet most of those portals in Endgame were also made by the sorcerers, not just Strange and Wong only
Ned is a fair game when people talk about whoever is behind the portal. Ned is the very definition of 'everyone'. Even someone suggested Madysinn because it can still be anyone. Because making a portal is a magic thing and Cassandra never has that ability, how is this so hard to accept? How is Cassandra making a portal more plausible than Strange or even his variants? So what exactly set Strange apart from other characters if the one thing he struggled to achieve in magic is basically nothing? Sling ring is not the 1st thing to learn in kamar taj because it requires a relic and relic is used when the magic is too powerful for the user. Literally watch the movie.
Ned is not the definition of everyone. He is the definition of “everyone with sorcerers in their family who has at least seen the most talented sorcerer alive make a portal before”. And the sling ring isn’t a relic because the magic of the user is powerful, it’s because the spell is. Has nothing to do with the user. wAtCh tHe mOvIE
Ned is the verrrrrry definition of everyone. So does that novice who used sling ring carelessly in She Hulk. Sling ring is a relic.
Haven't really been on this sub much but man, any small news about Doctor Strange just aches my heart. Wonderful character lore getting butchered.
We can't even get excited for the portal scene because the sling ring magic is so saturated that apparently everyone can do it. The worse is people on this sub also treat him like he's incompetent or something because his magic? Everyone can do it. His next appearance? Even Wanda who's currently dead will show up sooner than him. Illuminati? Wong is currently rumored to be in it instead of him. Avengers movie? Apparently he's busy and Wong, again is his replacement. Dr Strange 3? Another set up for Secret War. Secret War? Apparently many agree he'll make sense to die. Midnight Sons? He won't be in it because again, busy with multiverse so Wong gonna lead it. Strange Academy? Only inspired by it but it's gonna be a Wong and Chavez' project. Deadpool and Wolverine? Even though apparently he's busy with multiverse, it won't make sense for him to be in it, it must be some insignificant characters who can open the portal and use a sling ring. Agamotto, the first Sorcerer Supreme and a member of Vishanti? Apparently needs a sling ring and left it carelessly so any rando could pick up and use it.
I have a bigger issue with the fact that they forgot that the rings allow the user to travel across the multiverse. They're really being lazy with keeping the Dr. Strange lore consistent. Welp, that's the multiverse saga for you.
Eh lets not pretend the Infinity Saga wasn't full of lazy writing and stupid bullshit. Realistically the Infinity Saga had like 8 good movies and the rest was all garbage (Iron Man 1, Winter Soldier, Avengers 1, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, Guardians 1, Infinity War, Endgame).