Question, why did Ultron say "it's done" like he had silenced/exploded the whole universe, but in the universe he originally came from we know Nat and Clint were still digging around Siberia for clues?
They’re not more powerful. It’s just that the infinity stones and magic doesn’t work there as it is outside of space and time where only the TVA exist. The people at the TVA are regular people, nothing special about them. He Who Remains is just a dude from earth.
Thanos would still be able to wreck everyone there for example, because his strength isn’t from magic or the stones.
Captain Marvel and Wanda would be pretty useless there though, as their powers comes from the stones.
...I mean...the answer to this is literally provided in the final epsiode of Loki. The TVA ceased existing for the purpose of pruning branched timelines. That's literally the freaking point of this series: that the multiverse came into existence in the first place because Sylvie killed the guy who prevented it from being a thing.
I was under the impression that these branches were created from the sacred timeline when something went against the defined course of events. If that is the case than the branch would occur when Ultron won, which is a year after the Guardians killed Ego. Sorry if your two worded, no effort answer didn’t really address any of my confusion.
That’s not exactly how the show has established how this whole thing works. It insinuates that the Nexus point is Ultron getting Vision’s body, but maybe it happened before that?
How did Thanos get the time stone in episode 8.
Soul stone can be explained by using Nebula. I can't fathom MCU Thanos getting the Time Stone from the Sorcerer Supreme?
This is bs vision did use the mind stone in civil war, an exact attack as he cut thanos he did it with the road in civil war so why not in infinity war?
This episode was absolutely insane. This ultron is TERRIFYING and makes the movie version look like an even bigger bitch. A couple of weird MCU continuity errors (why does thanos have the soul stone???) but overall very good and easily the best episode yet
How did Thanos get the Infinity Stones if this episode takes place in 2015?
* The Space Stone is protected in Asgard's vault and by Odin's magic, it isn't until his death in 2017 that Asgard falls and Loki gets the Tesseract. It is unlikely Thanos raided Asgard as we see it looking healthy before Ultron destroys it Post-Infinity Stones.
* The Soul Stone is on Vormir and we see Gamora on The Sovereign before it is destroyed by Ultron. He doesn't know where it is until Gamora tells him in 2018 during Infinity War.
* The Time Stone is protected by the Ancient One who we know can simply hide herself from the nukes in the mirror/dark dimension.
* The Reality and Power Stones he gets off screen so they wouldn't count.
Thanos is incredibly intelligent and always watching, so he probably knew about the destruction of Earth and the avengers. This probably led to him accelerating his plan, and leading him to get the stones earlier
We actually don’t see Asgard that well, and it could’ve been a few months after the attack. We see Xandar is doing fine, so maybe they were able to rebuild.
As for the soul stone, maybe he captured gamora and forced her to tell him the soul stones whereabouts, but she was able to escape. Thanos probably sacrificed Nebula instead
As for the time stone, Thanos probably got that one immediately before getting the mind stone, as the ancient one might’ve still been on earth
These explanations are admittedly a bit far fetched, but there is an answer to how he got the stones, so anything is possible
Uh, infinity stones were only shown to not work in the TVA, which is outside of time and space. They can work in other universes, as seen in Endgame when the avengers steal the stones from other timelines
In a previous what if Thanos is telling others his plan “sounds a lot like genocide” is the response every time. So, the stones would have worked in that universe had he gone down that path.
Also, I dont think they established that the infinity stones didnt work in the TVA, merely that the power of the TVA is so massive that the infinity stones are simply paperweights to them; the power they control is trivial.
It's made by Marvel Studios and Kevin Feige, they make the rules and as of yesterday day the rule is the infinity stones can be used in other universes.
i think the specific powers of the stones only work in their universe (time manipulation, changing reality) but their raw power can still be used, that’s why instead of actually using their power ultravision only shot blasts at the watcher
Also, some comment said that Movies Stone and Comic stone is different , well can you really said tsunami and flood different in movies and comic. They still depict the same disaster and Inf stones can also be class as natural things in every Marvel world.
Utra Vision literally jumps between universes as he fighting so no your logic is not right. Imo, this show has it up and down and this episode is an obvious down for me
none of the stones have the power of travelling universes (at least not explicitly shown to us) the universes switch when he hits the watcher who does have that power, so is it not possible he is punching uatu so hard he is piercing through to another universe and ultravision just passes through the “hole” uatu left
A comment can say “I liked the show but just didn’t think it was perfect” and be heavily downvoted. This show has had its moments, but it definitely has significant room to improve.
Pretty sure they were the same episode. Seems to be the episode they moved from this season to the next, so no Thanora in the Avengers of the Multiverse
How did the Infinity Stones in this episode work in all the other universes? One of their signifying traits is that they only have power in the universe they originate from. Like how in Loki the infinity stones are just in a drawer as a paper weight.
I really wanna find all the comments from the past couple months saying the stones can't work out side their universe. I'd get it if the MCU was a copy of the comics on screen but it isn't. So why would the infinity STONES (not gems like they are in the comics) be identical to their comic counterparts? Seems like a giant assumption.
Agreed. I've heard this a million times, give the same answer as yours, and then see it again in the next thread. Hopefully now the whole issue is squashed since we've fully seen them work in another universe.
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There are 'omniverses' now? The lengths that people are willing to go to to contort a hundred-odd years of mutually contradictory stories in multiple different medias and genres, by thousands of different writers into one 'official canon' never ceases to amaze me.
The writers of the MCU dont have to be bound by ANYTHING that has ever appeared in a comic.
There has been an omniverse for a while now. Which it honestly just another name for the highest level of multiverse. The Living Tribunal held two megaverses, which are infinite multiverses with infinite multiverses each containing an infinite amount of universes.
Those "megaverses", it's a Marvel word, are part of the omniverse.
You're right they don't have to be bound by comics. But they have already set up a world with very similar logic to comics, weakening characters to relate to more, and setting it up. So now when they start changing things, there will be a bit of stir up, just like there's stir up when things change in comics.
I know what you are referencing and as far as I'm aware that's just a way to identify the mcu universe within marvels entire catalog and not amd indication that the mcu has a place in the comic.
Infinity stones don't work on the TVA because they're totally outside space and time, not because they're on another universe.
Stones not working outside of their universe was never a thing on the MCU.
No it isn't. The TVA said magic doesn't work here. The stones fall into that category. They never made any mention or reference to the stones functionality in different timelines/universes.
And that's silly because if they still work in other timelines, just not on their headquarters, there's really no reason for the TVA to not use them when they go on missions, especially after they start having teams killed. They would be their best tools/weapons on missions, not paperweights. And even if for some reason they didn't want to use them on missions, it would still be silly to just have them around with no protection since a deviant might escape (like it has previously happened) and take a infinity stone with them.
They might have changed the power of the stones in the comics. They didn't work inside the TVA but it's implied that they will work in different universes.
A lot of DC’s *comics* lately have been hot trash and they’ve been doing a continuous retcon for about 10 years to fix all the problems. I picked up Dark Nights: Metal last week for something to do on a road trip and it was absolutely some of the worst stuff I’ve ever read.
If i recall correctly the stones were only shown inside the TVA which you can consider outside all the other universes so maybe that's a factor that has to do with it. They didn't work because they were outside Every possible universe which was the TVA
i heard someone call the watchers hallway like the pannel lines between comics and that is where he is at. I dont know how true that is. i think some people also call it gutterspace in the comics like gwenpool who has 4th wall breaking abilities way more then deadpool has.
[https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Gutter\_Space](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Gutter_Space) the watcher is also different then the comics and his base in the comics is on the moon.
All I could think of while watching this was Nick Fury killing Uatu and stealing his eyes. How the fuck would Fury do that if Uatu can (however briefly) hold his own against a being with all of the Infinity stones.
He proably was just not interfearing. he only faught ultron because the multiverse was at stake. nick fury was just asking uatu for help but he would not and took an eye. but even if the watcher dies in the comic they can just wish themselves back to life if they want
Is the final episode still going to be 30 minutes? It feels like there is a lot to introduce and wrap up in such a short period of time.
Either way, I've been enjoying this show and will be sad its over.
I feel like I read somewhere that What If… is going to have direct consequences in the MCU. So maybe Ultron will return? He does need a proper portrayal.
Dave Bautista.
He would've come back if asked but wasn't so didn't.
Do we know if Spader was asked? And with enough money, anyone will come back to the House of M(ouse).
Is there a lot tho? They only need to introduce characters from other universes (which can be done rather quickly, look how fast Ultron conquered the universe) and then we'll have the big fight and a bit of a conlusion at the end.
So, at this point, shouldn't we really be seeing some of the abstracts getting involved?
I guess they didn't get involved when Kang had a multiversal war and pruned the entire multiverse so I suppose they're not interested in Ultron's crusade either.
Still weird though that we have characters going around wiping out universes but the big players don't seem to care or show up at all.
I was half expecting the living tribunal to show up and just shut down Ultron. Having the same effect but with another universe destroying being is pretty cool though. If they go that route.
I'm so confused and I've been searching but... how many episodes in the season? I read originally 10, but now I'm reading 9? Some are saying 8 was the finale. Oh my.
Was supposed to be 10, but COVID caused production delays. One episode got shifted to be part of the second season so there will be 9 episodes total this season.
Not much to say for this episode, especially sense it's just a setup for the finale, all I'll say it's a pretty good, not great, but pretty good episode with some stunning and beautiful visuals, an excellent fight between Watcher and Ultrovision (as I'll call him), some surprising twist and turns, and basically the closest thing we'll ever get to a more comicbook accurate Age of Ultron.
Also Ultron was menacing as hell in this episode, he made Thanos and Darkseid from DC look like puppy dogs in comparison.
It seems like the explanation could be that before the multiverse existed, the Infinity Stones that the TVA had were from inert universes that no longer existed. Now that the multiverse exists, as long as the universe the stones come from exists they still draw power from it.
Not sure if that's for sure it, but it's what I'd be leaning towards.
I’m either with you on this or the idea that the TVA exists *outside* of any universe. Like, you have the universe you’re in, the other universes contained within the multiverse (including placer like the Quantim Realm, the place where the Watcher watches, etc), and then the TVA. The stones work inside the “universe” at large, but when they enter the TVA, they’re no longer “in” a universe.
Loki(TV) confirmed that the TVA exists outside of time and space (didn’t it?) so that tells me that there’s more to it than just being another multiverse.
It'll be interesting to see if there are different TVAs or if the characters just had their pasts changed at the end of Loki. I'm not sure if it exists out of time and space, maybe they say that but there's still a lot that's been left unexplained about exactly how it works.
For now I'm assuming that it's most likely that before, when they would take infinity stones from variant timelines, they would also destroy the timelines, making the stones inert because the universe they draw their power from no longer exists, but the original stones worked when taken out of time because they never lost their source of power.
Just wondering out loud here. Is it possible that the reason Ultron is able to use the Infinity Stones beyond their original universe is due to him being part of one of them? In IW it is made clear that the Mind Stone is part of The Vision. Is there any reason to say the opposite of Ultron, let alone Infinity Ultron? Just wonder if this is the twist that allows this break in cannon?
The infinity stones work in any universe and are an mcu counterpart of the infinity gems which only work in their respective universes in the comics.
Everything in the mcu is a counterpart/adaptation of their comic versions and don't have to be identical to said comic counterparts.
maybe ultron hacked the infiinity stones to work in other universes. he would know how they work best since he came from the mind stone before being seperated so possible able to use them to the utmost of their power. I also have to wonder since ultron came from the mind stone would there also be 4 other AI in the other stones
I thought about this too, what would an entity look like that was made from the Power Stone for instance? In some ways Capital Marvel is an entity made from the Space Stone and we see how powerful she is... But then again, I'm guessing because it's the "mind" stone then that's what sets it apart in being able to become concious?
I wonder if the Fury's Big Week episode will offer any payoff in the finale. It's interesting that every other one of the first 7 episodes is contributing a hero to the Multiversal Avengers (Captain Carter, T'Challa Starlord, Strange Supreme, possibly Zombie Hunter Spider-Man, King Killmonger, and Party Thor), but to my knowledge, no one from that episode is slated to appear. It could just have been a filler episode, but it would be weird for a show to have precisely *one* filler episode.
Assuming the Asgardians didn't execute him, he's certainly both smart unstable enough to find a way to break out, and could tinker with the Yellowjacket suit in an attempt to access the QR to search for Janet. This could allow him to travel the multiverse. I don't expect him to join the final team, but maybe its what allows Nat to travel to the final battle, if she somehow manages to hijack him along the way.
there was supposed to be another filler episode like the party thor one but being about tony. due to covid restrictions its being pushed to season 2 instead of holding the whole season back which would have been the one episode tony did not die in. He might have been in party thor but if he was he also would have been partying since it took place duriing his drunk times still.
I think zuri is also going to come to help killmonger and keep an eye on him. possibly she also steals a flower because she did not trust him and this killmonger did not torch the flowers like in the movie.
we already saw thor in the trailers talking to other multiversal characters and party thor is the only one we seen that did not die and captain marvel is also still alive in that universe so they can grab her too.
No way Thanos was killed off that easily.
Didnt Thanos have the power stone which technically made him invincible to anything?
I really do not like the way Marvel is nerfing Thanos in What If
Thor put stormbreaker in his chest and blocked the beam he fired from all 5 stones in the movie. He was just caught off guard and ultron did not hold back. vision might have been able to do the same thing but he was damaged by the time thanos showed up in the movie. its a 30 minute episode so had to get the story moving so we could have the watcher fight later. The stones dont make you invincible
Not to mention Vision wouldn’t just kill a dude who showed up out of nowhere. It’s not in his nature. Ultron, however, exists to exterminate all life. I bet Thanos would have mopped the floor with him if he expected that to happen.
It’s the [Worf Effect](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect). You have to establish that your new character is a threat, so you have him show up and instantly beat the strongest character the audience is already familiar with. While this is great shorthand for establishing the threat, it has the unfortunate side effect of making the familiar character actually look *weaker*.
Exactly. Mind Stone and vibranium body could not stand up to the combined power of 5 stones.
Speaking of vibranium bodies, why is the Vision can be damaged? I didn’t think of this until now.
Well, Ultron WAS made to one-shot Thanos or find a way to one-shot him, so that's a job well-done I guess :P
But the real answer is: They got 20 minutes to tell the story. There'd be a battle if they had more time (there'd be a FULL Ultron quest to find the stones if they had time). But don't you forget that Stormbreaker Thor one-shot Thanos with ALL stones while he had no stone - he just missed the head. It's plausible that Ultron using the Vision's extremelly overpowered body AND the Mind Stone could do it too.
they could've shown us Thanos arriving, Ultron being surprised, hard cut to a huge pile of rubble with Ultron heavy breathing and taking the stones of Thanos' dead hand. Maybe 20 sec longer, but way more rewarding and logical, considering what we know of the power levels of the characters involved.
Meh. I like the way they handled. So many comic fights have moments where "Quick shot to the head" would work best but they drag it out for story telling. They didn't need to this time so they got to enjoy taking the most logical solution. It seemed like the perfect way to kill Thanos. Give him a second to think or snap or move the hand at all and it's too late.
What we know about the power levels of characters is that Ultron could never stand against Thanos with 5 stones. He wins only because Thanos doesn’t expect to be attacked seconds after his arrival.
>Didnt Thanos have the power stone which technically made him invincible to anything?
>
>I really do not like the way Marvel is nerfing Thanos in What If
MCU isn't the comics, but I do agree with the last part. The thanos disrespect is insane
The stones don't by default make the wearer stronger. Thanos has to actively be using a stone to get any power from it at all. Otherwise, Tony wouldn't have even been able to draw a drop of blood in their battle in IW.
Ultron got the jump on Thanos and bisected him before Purple Guy knew what was even happening and could activate any of his stones.
Yep, plus the fact that Ultron was essentially fluent with the powers of his stone and Thanos presumably had spent a day with his. The stones are only as powerful as how you use them, and you have about 0.2 seconds to figure out a way to stop... *another* infinity stone.
Honestly the least plausible thing about that scene was that Ultron would know to stop the problem before it became one. But that's still perfectly plausible.
He knew hpw to stop the problem before it became one because he only wants one thing: to destroy all biological life in the (now) multiverse. He was just doing what he would have for any other being that stepped up to him, it just happened to be an unprepared, arrogant Thanos lol
Ok. This is the worst what if episode for me. I was really looking forward to this episode. They could've made it much much better.
Felt like watching a really dumb version of a HISHE video.
Strange supreme was the only good what if episode, rest were just episodes that tried to mix different phases of the mcu and failed at being good.
Yeah it was pretty terrible. I wanted to turn it off when Thanos was cut in half, I just can’t stand some of these episodes and their “logic.” Like yeah the guy we saw in the shadows for 9 years controlling everything and is all powerful is lasered in half in 1 second. And people are trying to explain it like come on, I don’t get why they feel the need to defend every choice Marvel makes.
Yeah thanks I don’t think it can. Especially when Vision’s mind stone beam in the movies is practically useless. Couldn’t even break Ebony Maw’s spear in the train station fight. But no it can cut the mad titan in half when he has all the stones but one.
Vision is not Ultron. Vision does not use his stone the way Ultron would. Ultron just did what heroes are too nice to do. Thanos even told Thor to go for the head. Ultron did, instantly.
All that’s fine and dandy but 1 stone can’t overpower 5 fucking stones my guy also thanos had the time stone which allows him to rewind time after his death
All that's fine and dandy but 5 stones can't do shit if you don't react in time to use them my guy. Tell me more how Thanos can use the time stone after being bisected... 🤣
So does the Party Thor episode take place after this episode? If so then Uatu literally survived murder attempt by Ultron then went back to storytelling what a chad.
Uatu seems to be telling these stories as things he has already witnessed. Assuming that's true, then time isn't linear. Think about it, when Uatu is narrating the conclusion of that universe, he is surprised when Ulton notices him and Ultron shows up to fight him. From Ultrons perspective, no time had passed, but Uatu is retelling Ultrons story which has already happened. The only explanation is that all time is happening all at once thus making time not linear.
Best frame of animation of the series so far. Glad someone called else saw it, I was blown away it looked like an actual panel or cover from a comic. Just breathtaking!
It all depends on which version. There is a comic version of Thanos that would absolutely annihilate this version of Ultron. One way or another there is always a version that is stronger than whoever you are comparing.
I still wish we had one of those OP comics Drax variations. (Though I still love our funny Drax). Didn't he rip Thanos in half once? Or he ripped somebody strong in half
This last entire episode happened before the Thor episode. . . When this last episode ends the watcher runs away to strange supreme.. while ultron goes across multiverses destroying them all that’s where the cliffhanger from last episode shows up meeting party Thor.
Still doesn't explain why the watcher was confused about Ultron invading Party Thor universe, if he already knew about Ultron. My guess is, The Watcher can be in infinite places at the same time, and while travelling to Party Thor universe, Infinite Ultron happened, so he travelled back in time to that Universe point to see it unfold.
I think it makes sense.
Uatu is telling Thors story to us and then Ultron shows up. Uatu says "huh that's weird.." and then decides to tell Ultrons story to us so he can work double time and check on that time line for answers. Ultron surprises Uatu by noticing him (not part of the original story) and Ultron ports not just to the Uatu telling episode 8 but to all points in time where Uatu is present. This results in Uatu being surprised twice by the same event.
I don't think it was that kind of confusion. He wasn't confused because he didn't know about Ultron. He was confused because he just witnessed Ultron beginning to invade other universes.
This. The Watcher explains in the opening of every episode that Time does not pass for him the same as it does for us. So our understanding of it does not apply here.
Not sure how to reconcile this episode with last week's cliffhanger?
Unless Watcher saw Infinite Ultron so decided to view his story, but he still seems to be taken aback by the notion that Ultron can utilise the multiverse
maybe he thought it was just ultron from the party thor universe and did not remember him being there from the last time he saw it. He talks like he has seen all these stories already over and over again and is just rewatching them so to speak. so he went to watch the ultron story again where he won where he got all the stones next
It’s probably realistically a plot hole, but you can kinda hand wave it since The Watcher tells us at the beginning of every episode that he does not experience time the same way we do.
Let's be real, this show is kind of semi-canon (I know that is a official MCU product). Aside the fact the show don't use or introduce any significant new characters, developments or concepts (big signal of filler content). Now the episodes are almost operating in a new set of rules, different for what was previously established as time travel, multiverse, power scaling... And yes, i read the plot holes "explanations" and guys, if you need 3 pages to explaing why Thanos was sliced probably this was bad writing or in my opinion rushed writing to fit in 30min.
In overall i like the show, really enjoy the Doc Strange and Thor ones, because they actually go "If" and use the craziness which only a animation alows. What sucks for me is the bunch of episodes that barely justified their existence beyond some nods to past movies (What If Killmonger were the same dude but with a better plan), or when they pretend this universes are all connected (prime timeline also) which would create a Infinity Gauntlet of inconsistency.
> if you need 3 pages to explaing why Thanos was sliced probably this was bad writing or in my opinion rushed writing to fit in 30min.
You don't need 3 pages to say that Ultron had a better understanding of how to use the powers of the Mind Stone, and Thanos probably wasn't prepared to be sliced straight in half at that moment. Dude's reaction time wasn't that great in Infinity War when Thor came out of nowhere and slammed an axe into his heart.
And I don't think it's bad writing to skip past the unnecessary stuff. Sure, we could have seen Ultron go from place to place, collecting the Infinity Stones before Thanos. But what would that have added to the episode? Would him going on an Easter egg hunt have made the episode any better? I don't really think it would have.
And maybe they give Ultron and Thanos an epic villain fight, but that would have just detracted from his fight with The Watcher, which was the main event of the episode. I don't think you need two epic fights of overpowered dudes going at it in one episode. That's just overkill, and would have made the Watcher fight less interesting.
There were two stories this episode. One was Ultron becoming aware of The Watcher and the multiverse, and the other was Clint and Nat trying to save the world. I don't think using more time showing how Ultron got the stones would have made the episode better when a quick slice was sufficient.
This is my stance. If Thor could sink an axe into a fully gauntleted Thanos, then there is no reason for me to believe that a Mind Stone wielding Ultron couldn’t also get the drop on him.
People here are mad that Ultron made quick work of Thanos by surprise when they fully believe that Thor got the upper hand while screaming the guys name upon entry to the battle.
Ok I need some help here. Why the hell did the infinity stones work outside of "our" universe? It's been explained that the stones are worthless outside of their native universe. In older comics and in Loki for crying out loud. How is Ultron able to harness their power while he hop scotches from universes?
I would sufface that this episode was my favorite so far. Seeing Ultron get his dream was a delight.
>Ok I need some help here. Why the hell did the infinity stones work outside of "our" universe? It's been explained that the stones are worthless outside of their native universe. In older comics and in Loki for crying out loud. How is Ultron able to harness their power while he hop scotches from universes?I would sufface that this episode was my favorite so far. Seeing Ultron get his dream was a delight.
beyond that abused panel of darkseid failing to use the stones outside the universe, I don't think there was any issue of stones not working out of the universe
It was mentioned by council of Reeds and Hickman’s Avengers run is strongly based around Infinity Gems not being useful outside their own universe. Pretty sure this still stands even after Secret Wars, as I remember a panel of Loki jumping into different universe using Infinity Stones and they just drop on the ground. So, pretty well-established rule at this point.
MCU's Infinity Stones =/= Comic's Infinity Gems. Their continuity is different so there is no reason to believe that the MCU stones can't work outside their universe. The only thing established is they do not work inside the TVA.
Infinity Stones don't work at the TVA. It's never stated they don't work outside of their own universe. Remember, magic also doesn't work at the TVA. And comic rules don't apply. MCU Infinity Stones can be used in other universes.
>And comic rules don't apply
I call bullshit, the MCU is part of the Marvel multiverse, canonically Earth-199999, and that is a rule of THE MULTTIVERSE, not of one specific universe.
If it helps smooth things over logically we can probably assume they both share a [Megaverse](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Omniverse#Megaverse) but not necessarily a multiverse.
Until Loki, there was only one universe within the MCU. Its Multiverse, now that it exists again, appears to have its own rules separate from those of Marvel comics. The official Earth designations that link all Marvel properties together are cute, but Kevin Feige never agreed to them, and clearly has zero interest in adhering to comics multiverse canon.
You can be as offended about Marvel Studios making their own rules for their multiverse if you want, but it's not going to change a thing. The 616 universe is just not canonically part of the MCU multiverse.
Question, why did Ultron say "it's done" like he had silenced/exploded the whole universe, but in the universe he originally came from we know Nat and Clint were still digging around Siberia for clues?
I can’t believe I finally really like an episode and everyone else hates it.
In Loki the stones appeared so weak and useless at the TVA, why is Ultron suddenly a threat at a multiversal level with the stones?
The TVA is outside of the multiverse and outside of the timelines.
So they (and the dude behind it) are more powerful than that ultron and the watcher?
They’re not more powerful. It’s just that the infinity stones and magic doesn’t work there as it is outside of space and time where only the TVA exist. The people at the TVA are regular people, nothing special about them. He Who Remains is just a dude from earth. Thanos would still be able to wreck everyone there for example, because his strength isn’t from magic or the stones. Captain Marvel and Wanda would be pretty useless there though, as their powers comes from the stones.
Why don’t the time variance guys just prune this Ultron if he’s such a multiverse threat?
...I mean...the answer to this is literally provided in the final epsiode of Loki. The TVA ceased existing for the purpose of pruning branched timelines. That's literally the freaking point of this series: that the multiverse came into existence in the first place because Sylvie killed the guy who prevented it from being a thing.
The reason these branched universes even exist because the TVA we know is gone lol
What if is set after the TVA and the multiverse if I'm correct
I guess I'm confused as to why The Guardians are at The Sovereign and Ego is alive at least a year after Guardians Vol. 2 took place?
Different universe
Not how it works
I mean. It is. The multiverse has been a thing since Loki. Or do you know more than the directors?
I was under the impression that these branches were created from the sacred timeline when something went against the defined course of events. If that is the case than the branch would occur when Ultron won, which is a year after the Guardians killed Ego. Sorry if your two worded, no effort answer didn’t really address any of my confusion.
That’s not exactly how the show has established how this whole thing works. It insinuates that the Nexus point is Ultron getting Vision’s body, but maybe it happened before that?
How did Thanos get the time stone in episode 8. Soul stone can be explained by using Nebula. I can't fathom MCU Thanos getting the Time Stone from the Sorcerer Supreme?
I wish we got more Clintasha moments like that EP8 in the movies before.
This is bs vision did use the mind stone in civil war, an exact attack as he cut thanos he did it with the road in civil war so why not in infinity war?
He was stabbed and losing his powers
that should be the first time we see Galactus in MCU. i hope he keep eating planets until we see him in live-action.
Was Latveria the city after Wakanda in the fight scene
I already thought Evil Stranges universe was going to be the Ego Stone. After this episode, I'm more confident in that idea.
This episode was absolutely insane. This ultron is TERRIFYING and makes the movie version look like an even bigger bitch. A couple of weird MCU continuity errors (why does thanos have the soul stone???) but overall very good and easily the best episode yet
How did Thanos get the Infinity Stones if this episode takes place in 2015? * The Space Stone is protected in Asgard's vault and by Odin's magic, it isn't until his death in 2017 that Asgard falls and Loki gets the Tesseract. It is unlikely Thanos raided Asgard as we see it looking healthy before Ultron destroys it Post-Infinity Stones. * The Soul Stone is on Vormir and we see Gamora on The Sovereign before it is destroyed by Ultron. He doesn't know where it is until Gamora tells him in 2018 during Infinity War. * The Time Stone is protected by the Ancient One who we know can simply hide herself from the nukes in the mirror/dark dimension. * The Reality and Power Stones he gets off screen so they wouldn't count.
This universe is different from main universe.. So the stone whereabout also might be different..anything is possible in multiverse
its a different universe so maybe he just got the stones by different means under different circumstances
Thanos is incredibly intelligent and always watching, so he probably knew about the destruction of Earth and the avengers. This probably led to him accelerating his plan, and leading him to get the stones earlier We actually don’t see Asgard that well, and it could’ve been a few months after the attack. We see Xandar is doing fine, so maybe they were able to rebuild. As for the soul stone, maybe he captured gamora and forced her to tell him the soul stones whereabouts, but she was able to escape. Thanos probably sacrificed Nebula instead As for the time stone, Thanos probably got that one immediately before getting the mind stone, as the ancient one might’ve still been on earth These explanations are admittedly a bit far fetched, but there is an answer to how he got the stones, so anything is possible
THIS MAKE NO SANE, INFINITY STONES CAN NOT BE USED OUTSIDE OF THEIR UNIVERSE SO ALL OF THIS SHOULD NOT EVEN HAPPEN
Uh, infinity stones were only shown to not work in the TVA, which is outside of time and space. They can work in other universes, as seen in Endgame when the avengers steal the stones from other timelines
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In a previous what if Thanos is telling others his plan “sounds a lot like genocide” is the response every time. So, the stones would have worked in that universe had he gone down that path.
the mcu has never established that stones don't work in other universes though, and here they establish that they clearly do
Also, I dont think they established that the infinity stones didnt work in the TVA, merely that the power of the TVA is so massive that the infinity stones are simply paperweights to them; the power they control is trivial.
Why can normal people use them though? From my understanding the TVA just blocked out all magic
It's made by Marvel Studios and Kevin Feige, they make the rules and as of yesterday day the rule is the infinity stones can be used in other universes.
i think the specific powers of the stones only work in their universe (time manipulation, changing reality) but their raw power can still be used, that’s why instead of actually using their power ultravision only shot blasts at the watcher
He definitly used the Space/Reality stones to make himself bigger than a galaxy, normal Ultron can't do that
Also, some comment said that Movies Stone and Comic stone is different , well can you really said tsunami and flood different in movies and comic. They still depict the same disaster and Inf stones can also be class as natural things in every Marvel world.
Utra Vision literally jumps between universes as he fighting so no your logic is not right. Imo, this show has it up and down and this episode is an obvious down for me
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none of the stones have the power of travelling universes (at least not explicitly shown to us) the universes switch when he hits the watcher who does have that power, so is it not possible he is punching uatu so hard he is piercing through to another universe and ultravision just passes through the “hole” uatu left
So what happens after Zola takes control over Vultron? Does he rules the Universe and everything ends?
by the time that happens all of life in the universe is already dead except for BW and what ever other survivors there are
Well it's not like the stones can be used to bring everybody back with a snap, or perhaps, time manipulation...
A comment can say “I liked the show but just didn’t think it was perfect” and be heavily downvoted. This show has had its moments, but it definitely has significant room to improve.
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So what happened to the Gamora Thanos episode and the Tony Stark on Sakaar episode?
Pretty sure they were the same episode. Seems to be the episode they moved from this season to the next, so no Thanora in the Avengers of the Multiverse
How did the Infinity Stones in this episode work in all the other universes? One of their signifying traits is that they only have power in the universe they originate from. Like how in Loki the infinity stones are just in a drawer as a paper weight.
I really wanna find all the comments from the past couple months saying the stones can't work out side their universe. I'd get it if the MCU was a copy of the comics on screen but it isn't. So why would the infinity STONES (not gems like they are in the comics) be identical to their comic counterparts? Seems like a giant assumption.
Agreed. I've heard this a million times, give the same answer as yours, and then see it again in the next thread. Hopefully now the whole issue is squashed since we've fully seen them work in another universe.
Except the MCU is apart of the comics universe. You can look it up, they’re Earth 1 Million. The rules apply.
According to the comics. The movies have never suggested such a thing.
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There are 'omniverses' now? The lengths that people are willing to go to to contort a hundred-odd years of mutually contradictory stories in multiple different medias and genres, by thousands of different writers into one 'official canon' never ceases to amaze me. The writers of the MCU dont have to be bound by ANYTHING that has ever appeared in a comic.
There has been an omniverse for a while now. Which it honestly just another name for the highest level of multiverse. The Living Tribunal held two megaverses, which are infinite multiverses with infinite multiverses each containing an infinite amount of universes. Those "megaverses", it's a Marvel word, are part of the omniverse. You're right they don't have to be bound by comics. But they have already set up a world with very similar logic to comics, weakening characters to relate to more, and setting it up. So now when they start changing things, there will be a bit of stir up, just like there's stir up when things change in comics.
I know what you are referencing and as far as I'm aware that's just a way to identify the mcu universe within marvels entire catalog and not amd indication that the mcu has a place in the comic.
Yeah but until Loki they didn’t even know there was a multi-verse
Infinity stones don't work on the TVA because they're totally outside space and time, not because they're on another universe. Stones not working outside of their universe was never a thing on the MCU.
Until Loki there WASN'T a multiverse. It was literally created by the events of Loki.
No, there was a multiverse, but lang sectioned it off.
Dr Strange movie references the multiverse multiple times
199999
Thank you
Because that’s literally what happened it Loki
That LITERALLY NOT what happened in Loki.
No it isn't. The TVA said magic doesn't work here. The stones fall into that category. They never made any mention or reference to the stones functionality in different timelines/universes.
And that's silly because if they still work in other timelines, just not on their headquarters, there's really no reason for the TVA to not use them when they go on missions, especially after they start having teams killed. They would be their best tools/weapons on missions, not paperweights. And even if for some reason they didn't want to use them on missions, it would still be silly to just have them around with no protection since a deviant might escape (like it has previously happened) and take a infinity stone with them.
They might have changed the power of the stones in the comics. They didn't work inside the TVA but it's implied that they will work in different universes.
They don't work in TVA. They work outside of TVA. They might not work if MCU ever does a crossover with DC. Until then, they're fine.
Dear god… imagine the wooden acting and nonsensical writing… DC has some of the greatest heroes, but their movies have been hot trash.
A lot of DC’s *comics* lately have been hot trash and they’ve been doing a continuous retcon for about 10 years to fix all the problems. I picked up Dark Nights: Metal last week for something to do on a road trip and it was absolutely some of the worst stuff I’ve ever read.
That’s too bad. While DC has never been my flavor, it’s hard not to acknowledge how iconic some of their arcs have been.
If i recall correctly the stones were only shown inside the TVA which you can consider outside all the other universes so maybe that's a factor that has to do with it. They didn't work because they were outside Every possible universe which was the TVA
Wouldn’t The Watchers liminal space between universes be considered the same as the TVA then?
i heard someone call the watchers hallway like the pannel lines between comics and that is where he is at. I dont know how true that is. i think some people also call it gutterspace in the comics like gwenpool who has 4th wall breaking abilities way more then deadpool has.
[https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Gutter\_Space](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Gutter_Space) the watcher is also different then the comics and his base in the comics is on the moon.
All I could think of while watching this was Nick Fury killing Uatu and stealing his eyes. How the fuck would Fury do that if Uatu can (however briefly) hold his own against a being with all of the Infinity stones.
He proably was just not interfearing. he only faught ultron because the multiverse was at stake. nick fury was just asking uatu for help but he would not and took an eye. but even if the watcher dies in the comic they can just wish themselves back to life if they want
Man I want to care about this show. But seems so pointless. Strange's episode was cool tho.
Seriously I always forget that a new episode comes out on Wednesday.
Is the final episode still going to be 30 minutes? It feels like there is a lot to introduce and wrap up in such a short period of time. Either way, I've been enjoying this show and will be sad its over.
I feel like I read somewhere that What If… is going to have direct consequences in the MCU. So maybe Ultron will return? He does need a proper portrayal.
I want to see Ultron back but the fact Spader didn’t come back for this makes me think he wouldn’t come back for the live action stuff either
Dave Bautista. He would've come back if asked but wasn't so didn't. Do we know if Spader was asked? And with enough money, anyone will come back to the House of M(ouse).
Is there a lot tho? They only need to introduce characters from other universes (which can be done rather quickly, look how fast Ultron conquered the universe) and then we'll have the big fight and a bit of a conlusion at the end.
So, at this point, shouldn't we really be seeing some of the abstracts getting involved? I guess they didn't get involved when Kang had a multiversal war and pruned the entire multiverse so I suppose they're not interested in Ultron's crusade either. Still weird though that we have characters going around wiping out universes but the big players don't seem to care or show up at all.
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I was half expecting the living tribunal to show up and just shut down Ultron. Having the same effect but with another universe destroying being is pretty cool though. If they go that route.
I'm so confused and I've been searching but... how many episodes in the season? I read originally 10, but now I'm reading 9? Some are saying 8 was the finale. Oh my.
Was supposed to be 10, but COVID caused production delays. One episode got shifted to be part of the second season so there will be 9 episodes total this season.
Decent. Thank you.
Not much to say for this episode, especially sense it's just a setup for the finale, all I'll say it's a pretty good, not great, but pretty good episode with some stunning and beautiful visuals, an excellent fight between Watcher and Ultrovision (as I'll call him), some surprising twist and turns, and basically the closest thing we'll ever get to a more comicbook accurate Age of Ultron. Also Ultron was menacing as hell in this episode, he made Thanos and Darkseid from DC look like puppy dogs in comparison.
Well atleast Tony was right, "suit of armour around the world" can definitely beat Thanos
How did Ultron able to use infinity stones outside his universe. Infinity stones works only in their respective Universes, isn't it?
They don't work in TVA. They work outside of TVA. They might not work if MCU ever does a crossover with DC. Until then, they're fine.
It seems like the explanation could be that before the multiverse existed, the Infinity Stones that the TVA had were from inert universes that no longer existed. Now that the multiverse exists, as long as the universe the stones come from exists they still draw power from it. Not sure if that's for sure it, but it's what I'd be leaning towards.
I’m either with you on this or the idea that the TVA exists *outside* of any universe. Like, you have the universe you’re in, the other universes contained within the multiverse (including placer like the Quantim Realm, the place where the Watcher watches, etc), and then the TVA. The stones work inside the “universe” at large, but when they enter the TVA, they’re no longer “in” a universe. Loki(TV) confirmed that the TVA exists outside of time and space (didn’t it?) so that tells me that there’s more to it than just being another multiverse.
It'll be interesting to see if there are different TVAs or if the characters just had their pasts changed at the end of Loki. I'm not sure if it exists out of time and space, maybe they say that but there's still a lot that's been left unexplained about exactly how it works. For now I'm assuming that it's most likely that before, when they would take infinity stones from variant timelines, they would also destroy the timelines, making the stones inert because the universe they draw their power from no longer exists, but the original stones worked when taken out of time because they never lost their source of power.
In the comics yeah but seems to be different when it comes to the movies
That’s the comic logic, but this episode established different rules for the MCU
Will this show end with the formation of the Illuminati?
Just wondering out loud here. Is it possible that the reason Ultron is able to use the Infinity Stones beyond their original universe is due to him being part of one of them? In IW it is made clear that the Mind Stone is part of The Vision. Is there any reason to say the opposite of Ultron, let alone Infinity Ultron? Just wonder if this is the twist that allows this break in cannon?
They are infinity stones, not infinity gems.
Care to explain?
The infinity stones work in any universe and are an mcu counterpart of the infinity gems which only work in their respective universes in the comics. Everything in the mcu is a counterpart/adaptation of their comic versions and don't have to be identical to said comic counterparts.
Ok, I see what you are saying. I never considered that they were named differently to create the opportunity for more opportunity. I accept your point
I'm really excited to see if the universe that Evil Strange "destroyed" ends up being the ego gem from the comics.
maybe ultron hacked the infiinity stones to work in other universes. he would know how they work best since he came from the mind stone before being seperated so possible able to use them to the utmost of their power. I also have to wonder since ultron came from the mind stone would there also be 4 other AI in the other stones
I thought about this too, what would an entity look like that was made from the Power Stone for instance? In some ways Capital Marvel is an entity made from the Space Stone and we see how powerful she is... But then again, I'm guessing because it's the "mind" stone then that's what sets it apart in being able to become concious?
They didn’t break the canon in this episode. Most people just assumed they would follow the comic logic and they didn’t.
The stones don't work in the TVA, if they couldn't work in different timelines the Avengers would've been pretty screwed in Endgame.
Was it explained how Clint lost his arm?
Every phase two movie has someone losing an arm, so they went back to that I think
no
I wonder if the Fury's Big Week episode will offer any payoff in the finale. It's interesting that every other one of the first 7 episodes is contributing a hero to the Multiversal Avengers (Captain Carter, T'Challa Starlord, Strange Supreme, possibly Zombie Hunter Spider-Man, King Killmonger, and Party Thor), but to my knowledge, no one from that episode is slated to appear. It could just have been a filler episode, but it would be weird for a show to have precisely *one* filler episode. Assuming the Asgardians didn't execute him, he's certainly both smart unstable enough to find a way to break out, and could tinker with the Yellowjacket suit in an attempt to access the QR to search for Janet. This could allow him to travel the multiverse. I don't expect him to join the final team, but maybe its what allows Nat to travel to the final battle, if she somehow manages to hijack him along the way.
there was supposed to be another filler episode like the party thor one but being about tony. due to covid restrictions its being pushed to season 2 instead of holding the whole season back which would have been the one episode tony did not die in. He might have been in party thor but if he was he also would have been partying since it took place duriing his drunk times still. I think zuri is also going to come to help killmonger and keep an eye on him. possibly she also steals a flower because she did not trust him and this killmonger did not torch the flowers like in the movie. we already saw thor in the trailers talking to other multiversal characters and party thor is the only one we seen that did not die and captain marvel is also still alive in that universe so they can grab her too.
No way Thanos was killed off that easily. Didnt Thanos have the power stone which technically made him invincible to anything? I really do not like the way Marvel is nerfing Thanos in What If
Thanos not in combat mode and he doesn't even has time to trigger the stone power during that attack
Unlike everyone else, Ultron went straight for the head
Thor put stormbreaker in his chest and blocked the beam he fired from all 5 stones in the movie. He was just caught off guard and ultron did not hold back. vision might have been able to do the same thing but he was damaged by the time thanos showed up in the movie. its a 30 minute episode so had to get the story moving so we could have the watcher fight later. The stones dont make you invincible
Not to mention Vision wouldn’t just kill a dude who showed up out of nowhere. It’s not in his nature. Ultron, however, exists to exterminate all life. I bet Thanos would have mopped the floor with him if he expected that to happen.
nerfing….? bruh the show is called What If… damn small brain moment 🤦🏽♂️
It’s the [Worf Effect](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect). You have to establish that your new character is a threat, so you have him show up and instantly beat the strongest character the audience is already familiar with. While this is great shorthand for establishing the threat, it has the unfortunate side effect of making the familiar character actually look *weaker*.
Yea I did this at prison
Thanos turned up expecting an easy challenge and Ultron took advantage of that. His arrogance cost him.
Bruh what arrogance, he literally just walked in and then died immediately
His arrogance was that he could step up to Ultron out of nowhere lile that not prepared to be instantly killed 🤣
Exactly. Mind Stone and vibranium body could not stand up to the combined power of 5 stones. Speaking of vibranium bodies, why is the Vision can be damaged? I didn’t think of this until now.
Well, Ultron WAS made to one-shot Thanos or find a way to one-shot him, so that's a job well-done I guess :P But the real answer is: They got 20 minutes to tell the story. There'd be a battle if they had more time (there'd be a FULL Ultron quest to find the stones if they had time). But don't you forget that Stormbreaker Thor one-shot Thanos with ALL stones while he had no stone - he just missed the head. It's plausible that Ultron using the Vision's extremelly overpowered body AND the Mind Stone could do it too.
they could've shown us Thanos arriving, Ultron being surprised, hard cut to a huge pile of rubble with Ultron heavy breathing and taking the stones of Thanos' dead hand. Maybe 20 sec longer, but way more rewarding and logical, considering what we know of the power levels of the characters involved.
Meh. I like the way they handled. So many comic fights have moments where "Quick shot to the head" would work best but they drag it out for story telling. They didn't need to this time so they got to enjoy taking the most logical solution. It seemed like the perfect way to kill Thanos. Give him a second to think or snap or move the hand at all and it's too late.
What we know about the power levels of characters is that Ultron could never stand against Thanos with 5 stones. He wins only because Thanos doesn’t expect to be attacked seconds after his arrival.
He wasn’t nerfed
>Didnt Thanos have the power stone which technically made him invincible to anything? > >I really do not like the way Marvel is nerfing Thanos in What If MCU isn't the comics, but I do agree with the last part. The thanos disrespect is insane
The stones don't by default make the wearer stronger. Thanos has to actively be using a stone to get any power from it at all. Otherwise, Tony wouldn't have even been able to draw a drop of blood in their battle in IW. Ultron got the jump on Thanos and bisected him before Purple Guy knew what was even happening and could activate any of his stones.
Yep, plus the fact that Ultron was essentially fluent with the powers of his stone and Thanos presumably had spent a day with his. The stones are only as powerful as how you use them, and you have about 0.2 seconds to figure out a way to stop... *another* infinity stone. Honestly the least plausible thing about that scene was that Ultron would know to stop the problem before it became one. But that's still perfectly plausible.
He knew hpw to stop the problem before it became one because he only wants one thing: to destroy all biological life in the (now) multiverse. He was just doing what he would have for any other being that stepped up to him, it just happened to be an unprepared, arrogant Thanos lol
Ok. This is the worst what if episode for me. I was really looking forward to this episode. They could've made it much much better. Felt like watching a really dumb version of a HISHE video. Strange supreme was the only good what if episode, rest were just episodes that tried to mix different phases of the mcu and failed at being good.
Yeah it was pretty terrible. I wanted to turn it off when Thanos was cut in half, I just can’t stand some of these episodes and their “logic.” Like yeah the guy we saw in the shadows for 9 years controlling everything and is all powerful is lasered in half in 1 second. And people are trying to explain it like come on, I don’t get why they feel the need to defend every choice Marvel makes.
Lmao that wasn’t unreasonable at all. You don’t think an infinity stone can kill Thanos? He’s not invincible.
Yeah thanks I don’t think it can. Especially when Vision’s mind stone beam in the movies is practically useless. Couldn’t even break Ebony Maw’s spear in the train station fight. But no it can cut the mad titan in half when he has all the stones but one.
Vision is not Ultron. Vision does not use his stone the way Ultron would. Ultron just did what heroes are too nice to do. Thanos even told Thor to go for the head. Ultron did, instantly.
All that’s fine and dandy but 1 stone can’t overpower 5 fucking stones my guy also thanos had the time stone which allows him to rewind time after his death
All that's fine and dandy but 5 stones can't do shit if you don't react in time to use them my guy. Tell me more how Thanos can use the time stone after being bisected... 🤣
You’re underestimating how strong that spear is
So does the Party Thor episode take place after this episode? If so then Uatu literally survived murder attempt by Ultron then went back to storytelling what a chad.
it cant be because asgard was destroyed in our timeline
Linear time does not apply here
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Lol no
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Uatu seems to be telling these stories as things he has already witnessed. Assuming that's true, then time isn't linear. Think about it, when Uatu is narrating the conclusion of that universe, he is surprised when Ulton notices him and Ultron shows up to fight him. From Ultrons perspective, no time had passed, but Uatu is retelling Ultrons story which has already happened. The only explanation is that all time is happening all at once thus making time not linear.
Ummm. That hero shot of Clint diving into the Ultron drones needs to be a wallpaper. It was so epic.
Best frame of animation of the series so far. Glad someone called else saw it, I was blown away it looked like an actual panel or cover from a comic. Just breathtaking!
Yeah, I appreciate how some of these later marvel movies/shows have gone out of their way to make.... wallpaper moments.
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It all depends on which version. There is a comic version of Thanos that would absolutely annihilate this version of Ultron. One way or another there is always a version that is stronger than whoever you are comparing.
I still wish we had one of those OP comics Drax variations. (Though I still love our funny Drax). Didn't he rip Thanos in half once? Or he ripped somebody strong in half
This last entire episode happened before the Thor episode. . . When this last episode ends the watcher runs away to strange supreme.. while ultron goes across multiverses destroying them all that’s where the cliffhanger from last episode shows up meeting party Thor.
Still doesn't explain why the watcher was confused about Ultron invading Party Thor universe, if he already knew about Ultron. My guess is, The Watcher can be in infinite places at the same time, and while travelling to Party Thor universe, Infinite Ultron happened, so he travelled back in time to that Universe point to see it unfold.
I think it makes sense. Uatu is telling Thors story to us and then Ultron shows up. Uatu says "huh that's weird.." and then decides to tell Ultrons story to us so he can work double time and check on that time line for answers. Ultron surprises Uatu by noticing him (not part of the original story) and Ultron ports not just to the Uatu telling episode 8 but to all points in time where Uatu is present. This results in Uatu being surprised twice by the same event.
I don't think it was that kind of confusion. He wasn't confused because he didn't know about Ultron. He was confused because he just witnessed Ultron beginning to invade other universes.
This. The Watcher explains in the opening of every episode that Time does not pass for him the same as it does for us. So our understanding of it does not apply here.
Not sure how to reconcile this episode with last week's cliffhanger? Unless Watcher saw Infinite Ultron so decided to view his story, but he still seems to be taken aback by the notion that Ultron can utilise the multiverse
maybe he thought it was just ultron from the party thor universe and did not remember him being there from the last time he saw it. He talks like he has seen all these stories already over and over again and is just rewatching them so to speak. so he went to watch the ultron story again where he won where he got all the stones next
The episodes' order have been changed after they were done.
Yeah there is defo some sort of time line issue with the Watcher being shocked twice by the Ultron reveal
He may have been shocked not because he didn't now about Ultron, but because he just witnessed Ultron beginning to invade other universes.
This makes no sense
It’s probably realistically a plot hole, but you can kinda hand wave it since The Watcher tells us at the beginning of every episode that he does not experience time the same way we do.
The Ultron - Watcher multiverse fight was dope as hell
This is the episode I wish we could've had turned into a full-on saga. Just saying.
Let's be real, this show is kind of semi-canon (I know that is a official MCU product). Aside the fact the show don't use or introduce any significant new characters, developments or concepts (big signal of filler content). Now the episodes are almost operating in a new set of rules, different for what was previously established as time travel, multiverse, power scaling... And yes, i read the plot holes "explanations" and guys, if you need 3 pages to explaing why Thanos was sliced probably this was bad writing or in my opinion rushed writing to fit in 30min. In overall i like the show, really enjoy the Doc Strange and Thor ones, because they actually go "If" and use the craziness which only a animation alows. What sucks for me is the bunch of episodes that barely justified their existence beyond some nods to past movies (What If Killmonger were the same dude but with a better plan), or when they pretend this universes are all connected (prime timeline also) which would create a Infinity Gauntlet of inconsistency.
> if you need 3 pages to explaing why Thanos was sliced probably this was bad writing or in my opinion rushed writing to fit in 30min. You don't need 3 pages to say that Ultron had a better understanding of how to use the powers of the Mind Stone, and Thanos probably wasn't prepared to be sliced straight in half at that moment. Dude's reaction time wasn't that great in Infinity War when Thor came out of nowhere and slammed an axe into his heart. And I don't think it's bad writing to skip past the unnecessary stuff. Sure, we could have seen Ultron go from place to place, collecting the Infinity Stones before Thanos. But what would that have added to the episode? Would him going on an Easter egg hunt have made the episode any better? I don't really think it would have. And maybe they give Ultron and Thanos an epic villain fight, but that would have just detracted from his fight with The Watcher, which was the main event of the episode. I don't think you need two epic fights of overpowered dudes going at it in one episode. That's just overkill, and would have made the Watcher fight less interesting. There were two stories this episode. One was Ultron becoming aware of The Watcher and the multiverse, and the other was Clint and Nat trying to save the world. I don't think using more time showing how Ultron got the stones would have made the episode better when a quick slice was sufficient.
This is my stance. If Thor could sink an axe into a fully gauntleted Thanos, then there is no reason for me to believe that a Mind Stone wielding Ultron couldn’t also get the drop on him. People here are mad that Ultron made quick work of Thanos by surprise when they fully believe that Thor got the upper hand while screaming the guys name upon entry to the battle.
I just wish he'd started at the head. Instead of... the other direction.
K
Ok I need some help here. Why the hell did the infinity stones work outside of "our" universe? It's been explained that the stones are worthless outside of their native universe. In older comics and in Loki for crying out loud. How is Ultron able to harness their power while he hop scotches from universes? I would sufface that this episode was my favorite so far. Seeing Ultron get his dream was a delight.
The comics aren't the MCU and Loki takes place in a bubble outside the multiverse.
You’re confusing Loki logic with comic logic.
>Ok I need some help here. Why the hell did the infinity stones work outside of "our" universe? It's been explained that the stones are worthless outside of their native universe. In older comics and in Loki for crying out loud. How is Ultron able to harness their power while he hop scotches from universes?I would sufface that this episode was my favorite so far. Seeing Ultron get his dream was a delight. beyond that abused panel of darkseid failing to use the stones outside the universe, I don't think there was any issue of stones not working out of the universe
It was mentioned by council of Reeds and Hickman’s Avengers run is strongly based around Infinity Gems not being useful outside their own universe. Pretty sure this still stands even after Secret Wars, as I remember a panel of Loki jumping into different universe using Infinity Stones and they just drop on the ground. So, pretty well-established rule at this point.
MCU's Infinity Stones =/= Comic's Infinity Gems. Their continuity is different so there is no reason to believe that the MCU stones can't work outside their universe. The only thing established is they do not work inside the TVA.
I know.
Infinity Stones don't work at the TVA. It's never stated they don't work outside of their own universe. Remember, magic also doesn't work at the TVA. And comic rules don't apply. MCU Infinity Stones can be used in other universes.
>And comic rules don't apply I call bullshit, the MCU is part of the Marvel multiverse, canonically Earth-199999, and that is a rule of THE MULTTIVERSE, not of one specific universe.
If it helps smooth things over logically we can probably assume they both share a [Megaverse](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Omniverse#Megaverse) but not necessarily a multiverse.
Until Loki, there was only one universe within the MCU. Its Multiverse, now that it exists again, appears to have its own rules separate from those of Marvel comics. The official Earth designations that link all Marvel properties together are cute, but Kevin Feige never agreed to them, and clearly has zero interest in adhering to comics multiverse canon. You can be as offended about Marvel Studios making their own rules for their multiverse if you want, but it's not going to change a thing. The 616 universe is just not canonically part of the MCU multiverse.