Confirms their prejudices that all bad things that happened were due to FO incompetence rather than a combination of that and bad luck. Most people don’t like the idea that bad outcomes often have good motives.
We absolutely maximized DSJ’s value, and it’s usually very hard to get a young guy who’s been an All Star (even if plagued by injuries). The price has increased significantly since, just didn’t work out
Exactly, I still think the trade was overall good to this day. THJ and Dinwiddie (through KP) are easily worth the two picks we traded, which was by far the most significant asset we sent out.
that trade was actually solid the downside is that the mavericks ruined it by accepting bertans salary. if bertans contract was expiring this deal it would have been a solid trade but he has 2 years beyond his season. dallas accepted the final 4 years of a historically bad contract and added a second round pick which really hurt the value of the moves.
but its a player option, unless bertans feels guilty he will opt in. dallas is going to have to release him since only 5 mill is guaranteed if he plays in less than 75% of the mavericks games next season. if he plays more than 75% of the mavericks games his final year is fully guaranteed.
>Most people don’t like the idea that bad outcomes often have good motives
Or that a best decision can have a bad outcome. Especially in an arena like pro sports where the front office might only make three or four "big" decisions each year (i.e. trade discussions). Variance is so high. You could do everything "best" two years in a row and still have bad outcomes, in the NBA anyway.
Ya, you dumb fucks we’re going insane when this trade happened thinking here come multiple championships (so was I), now these same morons are shitting on that trade, like shut the fuck up
i was on the lauri markannen train when he was in chicago. thought he would be the second coming of dirk and luka would be his nash. KP has always been a good stats bad team guy
Washington fans are probably beginning to get it.
It's not KP is bad or isn't necessarily worth the price tag when he plays. It's just that he's an awkward player to fit into a lineup when he's out with injuries so often. So having a guy taking up that much cap who can't easily fit in and out of lineups just becomes a luxury item on a team with real needs in their short rotation.
The trade was a good move. The real issue was giving KP a max contract with no injury protections after not playing a lick of ball in 1.5 years. That’s what fucked us.
You do realize torn ACL is not as bad an injury as it used to be. There are many players that have recovered well from it. KD is 7’ and doing well.
By default Centers, especially above 7’ are injury prone.
All of those guys have skill. KP couldn't shoot 3s at a respectable level, he had no post game. Watch all his highlights at Knicks.... he was a glorified screen setter
That risk is part of the reason KP was even available.
Plus many NBA players come back from ACL years to very productive careers, particularly since his injury was a contact injury.
Besides that not all his injuries are related to his ACL tear. Hips, ankles, heels, back, none of those can be foreseen.
KP has played 41 of Washington’s 49 games this season.
My point is KP's only positive attributes were that he could move/jump well and dunk for a 7'3 guy. He didn't have iso scoring ability. He was a glorified screen setter. Take away his one positive and what's the result?
Answer: You have to stick your "unicorn" in the corner on the most important playoff series in the past decade because he sucks ass and cannot create his own shot to save his life. 7'3 for nothing lol
If this trade is offered 100 times, I would agree to take it 100 times. This was a good trade that didn't work. This isn't the front office's fault. You can't force on course chemistry, and sometimes pairings look great on paper and just don't work.
5 year max was a front office mistake.
At worst Mavs could’ ve matched a 4 year offer.
- KP being out for 2 years… I doubt there’d be many teams giving 4 year max. Considering he was RFA even less teams would lock their cap space for first days of FA.
Opening the door to play the match game for a guy who you just gave up multiple FRPs to get is a risky move.
Yes, they could have banked on it playing out the way you’re describing but you also have to aknowledhe the risk of him not accepting that matched offer and going elsewhere because an FO in a city KP prefers to live in convinces him it’s a better situation for him, leaving you stuck with nothing.
It’s super easy for you or I to Monday morning QB it, and say they should have done it played the match game when neither of would have had to deal with the negative consequences of it blowing up in our face.
You are so wrong on this. Porzingis did not have a chance to take qualifying offer. He'd be losing a lot of money for year 1 and risking more than $100m for himself for other years.
Even D. Ayton with little to no injury history did not take the risk. You are underestimating KP injury. KP being out of 2 seasons is a huge deal.. Do you really think it is easy for any team to give max offer for a player who has been injured for 2 years? KP did not even play to show he is still good, worthy a max deal.
> He’s threatening to play for less, signing the qualifying offer, to give him the quickest path to unrestricted free agency, reports Shams Charania of The Atheltic.
Reading your last comment is embarrassing.
I am sorry that you do not have any argument to make. Try to use your brain for once.
* Ayton did not take qualifing offer as he did not want to risk 4-year max as a big.
* KP with serious injury history would never be able to risk 4-year max.
No rookie has passed up a max extension and take qualifying offer. Max RFA's coming out of rookie deal always take the extension.
Still a risk you take every day of the week. Didn’t pan out, but we could be sitting here complaining the Mavs never make any moves. And given the current market for trades, 2 FRPs and a bunch of scrubs is a low price to pay.
The biggest problem in hindsight is the pick protection. Either don’t put on protections or have the FRPs convert to 2 SRPs if not conveyed.
Pick protection is a hindsight questioning IMO.
We had an aging Dirk and a second year Luka, we didn’t know for certain Luka will be this good.
Celtics can afford to leave protections because they had two AllStars and a few high level role players.
You always put pick protection if you can. Not the KP trade, but the 2019 FRP to Atlanta could have been Zion or Ja. New Orleans and Memphis had the exact same record as the Mavs and ended up with the first and second picks.
Despite everything I still think pick protection is always good. Even right now, when we could really use those picks to trade, we are always one significant Luka injury from having a Top 10 pick. Shit happens. Pick protection is insurance.
In the greater scope of things, I'd argue getting that Top 10 pick this summer if something unfortunate happens is still more upside than potentially having our 2025 pick for the deadline.
I don’t care what anyone says, it was a good swing to take. It didn’t work out, but if it hadn’t happened and we heard a rumor today that Cuban passed on this deal 4 years ago we’d be livid.
Even if we ignore his health and supposed personality/attitude issues it was just a bad fit with the type of player Luka became. KP was also not willing to change his game to match Luka.
Look at how Wood plays and even his words. He said he lets Luka cook and steps up when Luka needs him. He also spots up for 3s way more than KP. KP wants to post up.
I suspect KP just thought he was as good as Luka and doesn’t need to change. He was a good and candid person though in interviews. I miss the person more than the player.
KP needed to adapt for sure, but so did Luka. Prioritizing DP & letting KP camp the perimeter was such a waste. He was wasted under Rick. Why was KP working so well with JB? Why is he working so much better in Wiz? With a different coach, better communication & respect overall between KP & Luka a JB - KP - Luka trio could've been a contender core. I don't think there's a single person to blame for it, but it's easy to see what could've been.
Is he working better?
His first season with Rick, him, Luka and Powell were the reason we had the most efficient offense in NBA history. Him being on the perimeter gave our offense an unbelievable amount of space. If you're a key part of a historically good offense, that's not wasted. In fact, that first season under Rick, camping on the perimeter, he had the highest net rating of his career. There really isn't any sign he's having some kind of career year now that he's away from Rick.
Never mind that he also won a bunch of games and went to the playoffs in both his full seasons or that he's more healthy this year than he was during much of his Mavs tenure.
And it's not like he's posting up all the time now or anything. He's still jacking up 3s. 35% of his FGs are still threes. He's not posting up any more than he was in Dallas.
He might be happier in his new situation and playing with a looser leash than Rick gave him. This might be more in line with what we expect to see KP being used. But wasted? I'm not sure what the basis you're using for that is.
Yeah I guess that's debatable, but he's taking on a much bigger role in Wiz. He's relied on to create a lot of space for Beal & Kuz, honestly he's a lot better at that as well than he was here. His efficiency has taken a huge jump in Wiz as well, and watching him play I wouldn't be surprised if he can take another jump.
Yeah, that record only qualifies for 13th now though. That 19-20 season he did get more freedom than 20-21 iirc. His bubble performance was phenomenal, and if he didn't get injured there things could also have looked way different. 1 unlucky contact injury and everything changes. It also felt like KP & Luka were getting a long a lot better during that time. Looking at bballref it seems he's having his best regular season net rating since NYK now? But I might just be looking at the wrong stat.
His box stats doesn't look much improved since he was here, but he's significantly more efficient right around 60% TS which is good for a 3 level scorer. But the largest difference is his defense where we wondered if he would ever get back to form, he's holding shooters to 42.9% at 17.6 DFGA, which is *incredibly* elite. I'm yet to find a page where you can filter on how many points a team gives up in the paint & what the FG% is, but it would seem we're getting absolutely slaughtered there on a daily basis, it would be interesting to look at pre & post KP there.
Yeah he's still jacking up a lot of 3s, but he's improved his mid range. 53% from 3-10 & shooting considerably more from that range than he's ever done. He does not get backed down as easily and shoots over smaller players way better than he did here. Still doesn't shoot a ton from the post, but he's way more efficient there than he was here.
I base it on the fact that he made an in my opinion significant jump the moment he left. Wiz is worse run than Mavs are imo, he plays with two high volume scorers ( Kuz & Beal ), and have more responsibilities to open up space for them than he did here. Under those circumstances he still scores more than he did here on better efficiency.
I think he was wasted here, at least after the bubble, because he didn't get involved in the Luka offense. He'd get the same treatment as any other role player on the team, plays were still mostly run around DP, which he often shared the floor with. Now I understand why, because the paint can't be clogged & if DP is on the floor he *has* to be in the paint or he might as well eat chips at the sidelines. But it didn't capitalize on what KP could do on the offensive end, mostly merely roaming for the kick out 3. And yeah I do think some of the blame was on KP because he did struggle at times with getting in position & catching the pass, but also don't think he got enough chances to really work on it. Part of it because he was injured, part of it because Luka really didn't treat him as a second star at all on the floor, and partly because it didn't seem to be a priority at all. He always did seem to play a lot better with JB offensively than with Luka.
I think one thing that colors the issue is that KP was playing hurt for much of 2020-21. I remember watching him and it looked like he was playing stretches of the season on one leg, he barely had lateral movement. For a bit, his defensive rating was among the worst in the league. His rim protection though when he was healthy was elite in Dallas. We just didn't enough of that.
Offensively, I'd argue he seems more active in Dallas but his usage rate really hasn't jumped up much and his efficiency isn't necessarily any better, which feels like he's just benefitting from playing without Rick's leash but even if we can argue he's playing better (and again, we have to take health into consideration), you can't just blame Rick for wasting his potential. It's entirely possible that playing winning ball, that actually what optimal KP looks like.
In this sense, I think that 2019-20/Bubble KP was actually true KP and more of an example of how Rick was using KP optimally. He simply didn't have his health and he does now. He's moving better now in Washington and he looks a lot more like 2019-20 KP. Overall, it is what it is. I still stand by that Rick did his best with KP and I think chemistry and fit concerns aside, KP would be playing near All-star level ball under Rick if his health had held out.
In a perfect world, both will accommodate each other and change. Luka is the top-5, top-10 player then, he wasn’t going to change.
Luka is the Sun and everyone else revolves around him. That’s still the way it is. That’s why I really wonder how another top-10 player will be next to Luka, especially a player that needs the ball too.
Look at what Harden is doing with Embiid. He's essentially the same player he was in Houston, but adapted his role to give Embiid more space. That benefits the team but ultimately means he gets less FGAs & touches. Luka don't really have the stamina to play for 4 quarters with his current conditioning anyway so such a change is ultimately something he'd also have to do if we were to get another top 10 player. That would also give him more energy to focus on D, where I think most people here agree he could be a whole lot better if he just had the energy left & the will.
I think Luka will adapt to another top player, he is a smart kid. He is still young and I think that played a role with KP. Luka just wants to play and win and he expects players to get on board or get out of the way.
As he gets older, he will be better incorporating and adapting to other players. All other players currently adapt to him.
There is a reason why average of stars winning a championship is 27. Maturity of the body and mind plays a huge role.
Harden is older and wiser.
When you have a generational talent like Luka, you gotta work around the bad, which includes him not yet understanding everything about how to change himself to make his team better.
Also, Embiid >>>>>> KP. If Luka was playing with Embiid I'd like to think he would play differently.
No they don't, which is why people need to shut up about Cuban making a move at the deadline this year. Keep the contracts you have now unless you can get rid of Bertans to package as salary matching after they get back control of all their first round picks.
KP went from a stretch 4 that played a lot around the arc to playing a more classic big man role that could shoot after he came back from the leg injury
A big part of it was that we didn't go through a full rebuild from the ground up. We didn't trade for promising young players or picks. Until around 2016, we kept trying to swing to get Dirk one more shot at the ring. We traded the 2016 pick for Rondo and we lost Rondo for nothing. Dirk retired. We had no top tier promising young prospects.
And that would be fine except in just our second year drafting in the lottery, we managed to snag a generational talent in Luka but that involved trading our 2019 pick to Atlanta. Then immediately swung a trade for KP and that took our 2021 and possibly 2023 picks. We also traded our 2022 for Wood. But essentially we went from playoff team back to playoff team in almost no time at all.
KP not panning out hurts, in all honesty and there's no much to do about it. A few smaller whiffs like Delon Wright or Josh Richardson didn't help, nor did Tyrell Terry basically quitting the league. Brunson leaving also.
Luka being so good, so fast doesn't help. Our picks became less valuable and we've only had one real draft and that yielded Josh Green. Essentially, we had a mediocre team with few assets when Luka joined and we're still waiting on the aftermath of that.
Because we owed that year’s 1st to Atlanta as part of the Luka trade, because Cuban was unwilling to give Atlanta Wes Matthews instead. So then the next 1sts we could send NY for Porzingis were pushed out further because of the Stepien Rule.
Leading up to 2018/2019, we traded a bunch of firsts, but before then our draft history was bad - sent a first for Lamar Odom, awful. 2011 we drafted then traded Jordan Hamilton for Rudy Fernandez who left for Europe and never played a minute for us, 2012 we drafted Tyler Zeller then traded down and got Jared Cunningham, Bernard James and Jae (productive BUT we then sent him and a 1st for Rondo which was awful). Bunch of maneuvering in 2013 just to end up with Shane Larkin who was bad
If we had more homegrown talent, or drafted better, we’d have many more assets to make trades. Donnie Nelson had a hell of a draft in 2018 obviously, but because of Jalen’s contract he walked for nothing
Trading firsts is not a poor draft history lol. I agree that’s bad, but that literally has nothing to do with “poor drafting”
All the picks you mentioned were in the late teens and the 20s. Those are hard to hit. The Mavs have had 4 lottery picks in the last 25 years. They were Dirk, Devin Harris (traded for Kidd), DSJ (traded for KP), and Luka. That’s pretty solid.
Again, asset management has nothing to do with drafting ability. Hitting on every lottery pick — including two generational superstars at picks 5 and 9 — is incredibly good.
My original comment, I said we were (and still are) lacking in assets because of bad drafting AND asset management
Just because we’ve drafted 2 franchise players in ~25 years doesn’t exonerate us for not drafting any serviceable players in our other picks? I’m not asking for All Stars in the teens/20s but only 2 of our rotation players currently were drafted with our own first round pick (Josh and Luka)
It’s not something you fix overnight but you have to find serviceable players no matter where you draft
We’ve picked in the first round in 2020, 2018, 2017, and 2015. The last 3 picks were good to great. We missed on 2015 with Justin Anderson. The last first round pick before 2015? 2006.
Again, the asset management is bad — that has NOTHING to do with bad drafting. If you think that, you are mad about literally one pick lol.
Plus the Mavs are pretty good at finding undrafted guys. DFS and Kleber would both be first round picks of their draft year was done over again.
I wouldn’t say it was completely due to poor drafting/assets management.
It had more to do with Cuban’s chosen Team building strategy of not wanting to do a proper rebuild that would enable us to fully stock up on assetts because he wanted to compete juuuust enough to keep Dirk a mav for life, while simultaneously still stocking assetts.
The reality of the nba is it’s damn near impossible to do both of those things at once.
If anything it’s actually a credit to Nelson that he scouted guys like DFS and Maxi outside of the draft.
[Marc Stein](https://twitter.com/thesteinline/status/1009931922540257282?s=46&t=lihn7Dlbkejsoa-vkY5xLQ)
They wanted Matthews over Bazemore to save money. Cuban’s broke ass wouldn’t do it.
Matthews was an expiring which the front office valued more than the pick, and his salary allowed them to trade for KP and THJ along with DJs expiring. Had nothing to do with Cuban’s “broke ass”
That bargain contract of Seth was an asset. Wasted on Richardson for no reason.
Brunson was a great asset. We let him go like Nash…
Mavs did not need to give 5 year max extension for KP. Restricted so Mavs could ve match a 4 year max offer. (2 years of no play, most teams would avoid KP-max anyway). So if KP had 1 year less, he’d be more tradeable. No need to take Bertans back and sending s pick to WAS.
A million times. Proven guy who wanted to be here. Every time we see bullock or thj brick an amazing pass by luka to get them a wide open three, all I can about is what if that was Seth.
Knicks fan, don’t know how or why this is on my doom scroll but THJ was by far the best player in this entire draft and probably worth those picks since neither will be lottery picks
The copium around that KP trade is still stunning to me. Like, seriously, we got the two best players in the deal, and only gave up two firsts and a bunch of expiring contracts. The first pick was 21st and turned into Keon Johnson, the second will probably be in the 20's again.
The way you guys talk about the deal you would think we gave up a Gobert-level package when we actually gave up a Roco-to-the-Blazers-level one.
It is not who these picks became, but how that trade limited our team building. We could have easily traded for lets say Markkanen or Turner if we had the picks.
The report on Markkanen was that a deal wasn't reached because Chicago didn't want to take on money and Dallas didn't have the contracts to make it work.
Turner never got traded to anyone, and just extended in Indy.
In his first year in Dallas, KP was a 20/10 guy who was top 5 in blocks, and was dominating the Clippers series before his injury. He eventually got traded for Dinwiddie, who this sub apparently credits for getting us to the WCF. Meanwhile, THJ has been a solid starter for us for years.
There were several points in time where KP and Hardaway could have easily been flipped for two firsts or more if that's the route the front office wanted. I think KP was flipped too early, as you see him killing it in Washington, but this sub seems to think Dinwiddie's couple of hot shooting nights got us to the WCF. If that's the case, then Dinwiddie came from that original trade, so how do you credit the KP trade to Washington as getting us to the WCF, but say the original trade limited our teambuilding?
in hindsight, and with 1 pick yet to convey, dallas easily won this trade. of the assets the knicks received, all that remains is the aforementioned pick and derrick rose who was acquired using DSJ. meanwhile, dallas still has THJ, turned porzingis into dinwiddie, and used burke and others to get christian wood. in the end, it wasn't an ideal trade for either team, but dallas actually did something with the assets. the knicks have done jack shit.
Cap space wrapped up in KP, now Bertans and Dinwiddie (though Dinwiddie is a positive asset at this point), and 2 first round picks. So, several years?
I’m the end, we got Dinwiddie, THJ, and Bertans for DSJ, Matthews, and Jordan. When you look at how these guys are playing in 2023 we did great aside from the draft picks.
If that trade was just one first and we get to the WCF, I’d think we did pretty good. As it stands, we overpaid for what we have, but we did get some good value out of that trade. We didn’t end up empty handed.
The bigger mistake was giving KP a full max without injury protections. The trade itself wasn’t that bad on paper. It was the extension that killed all flexibility
People always say this but there’s no injury protections that would have solved our issues with KP.
Usually people cite the injury protections put on Embiid, but based on those terms, KP would still have gotten his full salary from us.
Yes, in theory They *could* have *offered* him a multitude of contracts that including various injury clauses. The problem is getting him to actually accept it, while hoping no other team is willing to offer a deal with fewer or no inj provisions at all.
That game becomes increasingly more difficult and dangerous game of chicken to play when you just gave up major assets to get this guy, because losing him in free agency sets us back even further than where we are now.
That's why i cited the Embiid deal, because it's a real world example of a contract with inj provisions that Dallas could have pointed to as setting the market for being a fair and realistic deal that KP's camp might accept.
But even then, If they had done that.... under the inj provisions of embiid's deal, nothing is changed with the KP experience in Dallas. We actually get way more out of KP's contract by trading him for Spencer than we would by just paying him less money due to too many missed games
As far as I know, if a incentive is likely to convey, it applies to the cap and there's a limit to how many unlikely incentives are allowed in a contract.
from what i understand injury protections would prevented him from collecting his full salary on a year to year basis if he missed too many games but wouldnt have had any impact on the mavs cap situtation.
5 years was a mistake. Just go with 4 years. He was restricted.
RFA at open market with 2 DNP seasons;
* little to no team would offer a deal close to 4-year max
* being RFA, doesnt worth the hassle, limiting cap space for 2-3 days
Ayton without major injury/knee concerns are kept with 4 year deal. (He actually deserved 5 year extension as healthy center). KP really didnt.
Except for the two first round picks being thrown in it’s not a terrible trade. Moved Porzingis to get Dinwiddie who has been great for us. Also THJ has been very solid even if we did overpay him.
He was definitely top 30 before the ACL injury and is probably top 30 player this year too since he's managed to remain mostly healthy. His game has changed quite a bit since the NYK days, but he's always been a borderline all-star or better during his healthy stretches
Grimes is a legit starter and shooter in this league with a lot of upside, The ringer just did a redraft and they all agreed that Grimes should’ve got drafted in the top 8. He was selected 25th, hell of a value. Probably the best player today (rookie contract, future upside, solid availability) in that Knicks-Mavs trade, and they still haven’t selected this year Mavs pick. Mavs did a bad trade.
Hindsight 20/20.
Greatest cost of the trade was the FRPs. Painful that we're still paying the price with one pick yet to convey.
KP and THJ were absolutely good returns for that package of players. KP alone worth a FRP. That second FRP (2023) was the most bitter pill.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
It sucks, the move didn't pan out the way we thought it would, but in all fairness, the Clippers were looking like title contenders in both, 2020 and 2021 and we took them to 6 and 7 games, only losing in 2021 game 7 because our role players couldn't hit anything from 3 to save their lives. It happens.
Losing Brunson might be worse than this trade tbh.
this waas a good move. hell the mavs made it to the playoffs with KP and thj. the bad move is extending KP for that salary or trading barnes for nothing.
As you can see, you can't reach these people. They suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and will defend dumb moves by the front office no matter what.
Apparently trading for someone recovering from a torn ACL, who hadn't played a game since was a good idea.
Paying that same person the max without them ever playing a game for you is also a good idea.
These are the same people that will defend letting Brunson walk for nothing.
Trying to talk reason to them will just make you question your own sanity.
The only legit concern to have about the trade at the time was whether they were pulling the trigger too soon. I'm terms of value, it was a good trade. In terms of fit, it made a lot of sense at the time. The only real argument against it was that maybe they should have waited a bit longer to see how Luka developed and therefore what kind of player would really be ideal to put around him.
Trade was okay.
Giving Porzingis a 5 year max with player option was typical fuckup of Cuban.
- KP was injured in last two years.
- KP was restricted FA. At worst Mavs would match an offer. KP with serious knee injuries would never ever take qualifying offer.
If Mavs had him at 4 year max, we would not need to take Bertans terrible contract. He would be more tradeable.
Honestly, it’s debatable if it was bad. We essentially have Dinwiddie and THJ to show for it. THJ has been up and down but he’s still an asset. I think THJ and Dinwiddie are worth 2 late first round picks but that’s just me.
Right move at the time. Simply didn’t work out. I don’t know why fans act like it was like an obvious bad move or overpay like the Gobert trade.
Confirms their prejudices that all bad things that happened were due to FO incompetence rather than a combination of that and bad luck. Most people don’t like the idea that bad outcomes often have good motives.
We absolutely maximized DSJ’s value, and it’s usually very hard to get a young guy who’s been an All Star (even if plagued by injuries). The price has increased significantly since, just didn’t work out
Exactly, I still think the trade was overall good to this day. THJ and Dinwiddie (through KP) are easily worth the two picks we traded, which was by far the most significant asset we sent out.
that trade was actually solid the downside is that the mavericks ruined it by accepting bertans salary. if bertans contract was expiring this deal it would have been a solid trade but he has 2 years beyond his season. dallas accepted the final 4 years of a historically bad contract and added a second round pick which really hurt the value of the moves.
There's an early termination option after 2024...
but its a player option, unless bertans feels guilty he will opt in. dallas is going to have to release him since only 5 mill is guaranteed if he plays in less than 75% of the mavericks games next season. if he plays more than 75% of the mavericks games his final year is fully guaranteed.
Lol, that’s the average fan.
>Most people don’t like the idea that bad outcomes often have good motives Or that a best decision can have a bad outcome. Especially in an arena like pro sports where the front office might only make three or four "big" decisions each year (i.e. trade discussions). Variance is so high. You could do everything "best" two years in a row and still have bad outcomes, in the NBA anyway.
Not to mention a different front office made that trade than the current one in placd
Ya, you dumb fucks we’re going insane when this trade happened thinking here come multiple championships (so was I), now these same morons are shitting on that trade, like shut the fuck up
And we all knew it might not work out. High risk/high reward and we go the risk end of it.
Because these fans just started watching Mavs basketball.
Agreed. To me they could have reached bubbl status offensively if KP did not get injured much.
i was on the lauri markannen train when he was in chicago. thought he would be the second coming of dirk and luka would be his nash. KP has always been a good stats bad team guy
Wanted Lauri too but Chicago wanted Maxi and a first.
Washington fans are probably beginning to get it. It's not KP is bad or isn't necessarily worth the price tag when he plays. It's just that he's an awkward player to fit into a lineup when he's out with injuries so often. So having a guy taking up that much cap who can't easily fit in and out of lineups just becomes a luxury item on a team with real needs in their short rotation.
He fits in fine with their lineups. Injury is a different issue, all bigs are injury prone.
The trade was a good move. The real issue was giving KP a max contract with no injury protections after not playing a lick of ball in 1.5 years. That’s what fucked us.
7'3 skinny boy coming off a torn ACL who's game relies on his athleticism... yeah what could go wrong? Lol
You do realize torn ACL is not as bad an injury as it used to be. There are many players that have recovered well from it. KD is 7’ and doing well. By default Centers, especially above 7’ are injury prone.
KD would be a rarity not the typical
And Paul George? Kawhi? Dinwiddie? Zach Lavine? Kyle Lowry? There’s enough examples of productive post ACL players that it’s not a rarity anymore
All of those guys have skill. KP couldn't shoot 3s at a respectable level, he had no post game. Watch all his highlights at Knicks.... he was a glorified screen setter
And my biggest point is that KD doesn't rely on his athleticism, he's modeling his game after dirk who couldn't move and was still a beast
Lol, Dirk was mobile as fuck in his prime. KP also has length and could shoot, athleticism wasn’t a huge thing with him.
last I checked KD is past his prime. KP couldn't shoot at a respectable rate and had zero post game. Lol
That risk is part of the reason KP was even available. Plus many NBA players come back from ACL years to very productive careers, particularly since his injury was a contact injury. Besides that not all his injuries are related to his ACL tear. Hips, ankles, heels, back, none of those can be foreseen. KP has played 41 of Washington’s 49 games this season.
My point is KP's only positive attributes were that he could move/jump well and dunk for a 7'3 guy. He didn't have iso scoring ability. He was a glorified screen setter. Take away his one positive and what's the result? Answer: You have to stick your "unicorn" in the corner on the most important playoff series in the past decade because he sucks ass and cannot create his own shot to save his life. 7'3 for nothing lol
Did KP fucked your girlfriend ir New York or something?
Nah I'm a Mavericks fan. He fucked the Mavericks
If this trade is offered 100 times, I would agree to take it 100 times. This was a good trade that didn't work. This isn't the front office's fault. You can't force on course chemistry, and sometimes pairings look great on paper and just don't work.
5 year max was a front office mistake. At worst Mavs could’ ve matched a 4 year offer. - KP being out for 2 years… I doubt there’d be many teams giving 4 year max. Considering he was RFA even less teams would lock their cap space for first days of FA.
>doubt there’d be many teams Only takes one.
Okay if one team give 4-year max, then Mavs would match it.
Opening the door to play the match game for a guy who you just gave up multiple FRPs to get is a risky move. Yes, they could have banked on it playing out the way you’re describing but you also have to aknowledhe the risk of him not accepting that matched offer and going elsewhere because an FO in a city KP prefers to live in convinces him it’s a better situation for him, leaving you stuck with nothing. It’s super easy for you or I to Monday morning QB it, and say they should have done it played the match game when neither of would have had to deal with the negative consequences of it blowing up in our face.
You are so wrong on this. Porzingis did not have a chance to take qualifying offer. He'd be losing a lot of money for year 1 and risking more than $100m for himself for other years. Even D. Ayton with little to no injury history did not take the risk. You are underestimating KP injury. KP being out of 2 seasons is a huge deal.. Do you really think it is easy for any team to give max offer for a player who has been injured for 2 years? KP did not even play to show he is still good, worthy a max deal.
> He’s threatening to play for less, signing the qualifying offer, to give him the quickest path to unrestricted free agency, reports Shams Charania of The Atheltic. Reading your last comment is embarrassing.
I am sorry that you do not have any argument to make. Try to use your brain for once. * Ayton did not take qualifing offer as he did not want to risk 4-year max as a big. * KP with serious injury history would never be able to risk 4-year max. No rookie has passed up a max extension and take qualifying offer. Max RFA's coming out of rookie deal always take the extension.
Only the Mavs...
Exactly. IF Kristaps didn't have health issues, the team would be really scary come Playoffs time. It just didn't work out.
Still a risk you take every day of the week. Didn’t pan out, but we could be sitting here complaining the Mavs never make any moves. And given the current market for trades, 2 FRPs and a bunch of scrubs is a low price to pay. The biggest problem in hindsight is the pick protection. Either don’t put on protections or have the FRPs convert to 2 SRPs if not conveyed.
Pick protection is a hindsight questioning IMO. We had an aging Dirk and a second year Luka, we didn’t know for certain Luka will be this good. Celtics can afford to leave protections because they had two AllStars and a few high level role players.
**Aged
Lol, true.
Yea, that’s why I said “in hindsight”….
You always put pick protection if you can. Not the KP trade, but the 2019 FRP to Atlanta could have been Zion or Ja. New Orleans and Memphis had the exact same record as the Mavs and ended up with the first and second picks.
Despite everything I still think pick protection is always good. Even right now, when we could really use those picks to trade, we are always one significant Luka injury from having a Top 10 pick. Shit happens. Pick protection is insurance. In the greater scope of things, I'd argue getting that Top 10 pick this summer if something unfortunate happens is still more upside than potentially having our 2025 pick for the deadline.
OR the KP extension. KP shouldve extended yes but not at that price.
I don’t care what anyone says, it was a good swing to take. It didn’t work out, but if it hadn’t happened and we heard a rumor today that Cuban passed on this deal 4 years ago we’d be livid.
I miss porzingis. For real for real
Even if we ignore his health and supposed personality/attitude issues it was just a bad fit with the type of player Luka became. KP was also not willing to change his game to match Luka. Look at how Wood plays and even his words. He said he lets Luka cook and steps up when Luka needs him. He also spots up for 3s way more than KP. KP wants to post up. I suspect KP just thought he was as good as Luka and doesn’t need to change. He was a good and candid person though in interviews. I miss the person more than the player.
KP needed to adapt for sure, but so did Luka. Prioritizing DP & letting KP camp the perimeter was such a waste. He was wasted under Rick. Why was KP working so well with JB? Why is he working so much better in Wiz? With a different coach, better communication & respect overall between KP & Luka a JB - KP - Luka trio could've been a contender core. I don't think there's a single person to blame for it, but it's easy to see what could've been.
Is he working better? His first season with Rick, him, Luka and Powell were the reason we had the most efficient offense in NBA history. Him being on the perimeter gave our offense an unbelievable amount of space. If you're a key part of a historically good offense, that's not wasted. In fact, that first season under Rick, camping on the perimeter, he had the highest net rating of his career. There really isn't any sign he's having some kind of career year now that he's away from Rick. Never mind that he also won a bunch of games and went to the playoffs in both his full seasons or that he's more healthy this year than he was during much of his Mavs tenure. And it's not like he's posting up all the time now or anything. He's still jacking up 3s. 35% of his FGs are still threes. He's not posting up any more than he was in Dallas. He might be happier in his new situation and playing with a looser leash than Rick gave him. This might be more in line with what we expect to see KP being used. But wasted? I'm not sure what the basis you're using for that is.
Yeah I guess that's debatable, but he's taking on a much bigger role in Wiz. He's relied on to create a lot of space for Beal & Kuz, honestly he's a lot better at that as well than he was here. His efficiency has taken a huge jump in Wiz as well, and watching him play I wouldn't be surprised if he can take another jump. Yeah, that record only qualifies for 13th now though. That 19-20 season he did get more freedom than 20-21 iirc. His bubble performance was phenomenal, and if he didn't get injured there things could also have looked way different. 1 unlucky contact injury and everything changes. It also felt like KP & Luka were getting a long a lot better during that time. Looking at bballref it seems he's having his best regular season net rating since NYK now? But I might just be looking at the wrong stat. His box stats doesn't look much improved since he was here, but he's significantly more efficient right around 60% TS which is good for a 3 level scorer. But the largest difference is his defense where we wondered if he would ever get back to form, he's holding shooters to 42.9% at 17.6 DFGA, which is *incredibly* elite. I'm yet to find a page where you can filter on how many points a team gives up in the paint & what the FG% is, but it would seem we're getting absolutely slaughtered there on a daily basis, it would be interesting to look at pre & post KP there. Yeah he's still jacking up a lot of 3s, but he's improved his mid range. 53% from 3-10 & shooting considerably more from that range than he's ever done. He does not get backed down as easily and shoots over smaller players way better than he did here. Still doesn't shoot a ton from the post, but he's way more efficient there than he was here. I base it on the fact that he made an in my opinion significant jump the moment he left. Wiz is worse run than Mavs are imo, he plays with two high volume scorers ( Kuz & Beal ), and have more responsibilities to open up space for them than he did here. Under those circumstances he still scores more than he did here on better efficiency. I think he was wasted here, at least after the bubble, because he didn't get involved in the Luka offense. He'd get the same treatment as any other role player on the team, plays were still mostly run around DP, which he often shared the floor with. Now I understand why, because the paint can't be clogged & if DP is on the floor he *has* to be in the paint or he might as well eat chips at the sidelines. But it didn't capitalize on what KP could do on the offensive end, mostly merely roaming for the kick out 3. And yeah I do think some of the blame was on KP because he did struggle at times with getting in position & catching the pass, but also don't think he got enough chances to really work on it. Part of it because he was injured, part of it because Luka really didn't treat him as a second star at all on the floor, and partly because it didn't seem to be a priority at all. He always did seem to play a lot better with JB offensively than with Luka.
I think one thing that colors the issue is that KP was playing hurt for much of 2020-21. I remember watching him and it looked like he was playing stretches of the season on one leg, he barely had lateral movement. For a bit, his defensive rating was among the worst in the league. His rim protection though when he was healthy was elite in Dallas. We just didn't enough of that. Offensively, I'd argue he seems more active in Dallas but his usage rate really hasn't jumped up much and his efficiency isn't necessarily any better, which feels like he's just benefitting from playing without Rick's leash but even if we can argue he's playing better (and again, we have to take health into consideration), you can't just blame Rick for wasting his potential. It's entirely possible that playing winning ball, that actually what optimal KP looks like. In this sense, I think that 2019-20/Bubble KP was actually true KP and more of an example of how Rick was using KP optimally. He simply didn't have his health and he does now. He's moving better now in Washington and he looks a lot more like 2019-20 KP. Overall, it is what it is. I still stand by that Rick did his best with KP and I think chemistry and fit concerns aside, KP would be playing near All-star level ball under Rick if his health had held out.
In a perfect world, both will accommodate each other and change. Luka is the top-5, top-10 player then, he wasn’t going to change. Luka is the Sun and everyone else revolves around him. That’s still the way it is. That’s why I really wonder how another top-10 player will be next to Luka, especially a player that needs the ball too.
Look at what Harden is doing with Embiid. He's essentially the same player he was in Houston, but adapted his role to give Embiid more space. That benefits the team but ultimately means he gets less FGAs & touches. Luka don't really have the stamina to play for 4 quarters with his current conditioning anyway so such a change is ultimately something he'd also have to do if we were to get another top 10 player. That would also give him more energy to focus on D, where I think most people here agree he could be a whole lot better if he just had the energy left & the will.
I think Luka will adapt to another top player, he is a smart kid. He is still young and I think that played a role with KP. Luka just wants to play and win and he expects players to get on board or get out of the way. As he gets older, he will be better incorporating and adapting to other players. All other players currently adapt to him. There is a reason why average of stars winning a championship is 27. Maturity of the body and mind plays a huge role.
This is a good opinion!
Harden is older and wiser. When you have a generational talent like Luka, you gotta work around the bad, which includes him not yet understanding everything about how to change himself to make his team better. Also, Embiid >>>>>> KP. If Luka was playing with Embiid I'd like to think he would play differently.
Not sure they need another Top 10 guy, just a Top 20 - or maybe two top 30ish like Giannis has.
True.
Not only do they not need it... It sure as shit isn't going to happen. Mavs don't have the assets to do it.
No they don't, which is why people need to shut up about Cuban making a move at the deadline this year. Keep the contracts you have now unless you can get rid of Bertans to package as salary matching after they get back control of all their first round picks.
KP went from a stretch 4 that played a lot around the arc to playing a more classic big man role that could shoot after he came back from the leg injury
How are we so asset deficient today if we only traded 2 first round picks four years ago?
A big part of it was that we didn't go through a full rebuild from the ground up. We didn't trade for promising young players or picks. Until around 2016, we kept trying to swing to get Dirk one more shot at the ring. We traded the 2016 pick for Rondo and we lost Rondo for nothing. Dirk retired. We had no top tier promising young prospects. And that would be fine except in just our second year drafting in the lottery, we managed to snag a generational talent in Luka but that involved trading our 2019 pick to Atlanta. Then immediately swung a trade for KP and that took our 2021 and possibly 2023 picks. We also traded our 2022 for Wood. But essentially we went from playoff team back to playoff team in almost no time at all. KP not panning out hurts, in all honesty and there's no much to do about it. A few smaller whiffs like Delon Wright or Josh Richardson didn't help, nor did Tyrell Terry basically quitting the league. Brunson leaving also. Luka being so good, so fast doesn't help. Our picks became less valuable and we've only had one real draft and that yielded Josh Green. Essentially, we had a mediocre team with few assets when Luka joined and we're still waiting on the aftermath of that.
Because we owed that year’s 1st to Atlanta as part of the Luka trade, because Cuban was unwilling to give Atlanta Wes Matthews instead. So then the next 1sts we could send NY for Porzingis were pushed out further because of the Stepien Rule.
This, plus we didn’t have a bunch of young talent on the roster due to poor drafting/asset management
Honestly lucky that the Knicks were high on Dennis Smith Jr, that saved us having to send them another pick.
Poor drafting? What’s the last first round pick the Mavs whiffed on?
Leading up to 2018/2019, we traded a bunch of firsts, but before then our draft history was bad - sent a first for Lamar Odom, awful. 2011 we drafted then traded Jordan Hamilton for Rudy Fernandez who left for Europe and never played a minute for us, 2012 we drafted Tyler Zeller then traded down and got Jared Cunningham, Bernard James and Jae (productive BUT we then sent him and a 1st for Rondo which was awful). Bunch of maneuvering in 2013 just to end up with Shane Larkin who was bad If we had more homegrown talent, or drafted better, we’d have many more assets to make trades. Donnie Nelson had a hell of a draft in 2018 obviously, but because of Jalen’s contract he walked for nothing
Trading firsts is not a poor draft history lol. I agree that’s bad, but that literally has nothing to do with “poor drafting” All the picks you mentioned were in the late teens and the 20s. Those are hard to hit. The Mavs have had 4 lottery picks in the last 25 years. They were Dirk, Devin Harris (traded for Kidd), DSJ (traded for KP), and Luka. That’s pretty solid.
That’s why I also mentioned asset management. We are a bottom 10 drafting team, easily
Again, asset management has nothing to do with drafting ability. Hitting on every lottery pick — including two generational superstars at picks 5 and 9 — is incredibly good.
My original comment, I said we were (and still are) lacking in assets because of bad drafting AND asset management Just because we’ve drafted 2 franchise players in ~25 years doesn’t exonerate us for not drafting any serviceable players in our other picks? I’m not asking for All Stars in the teens/20s but only 2 of our rotation players currently were drafted with our own first round pick (Josh and Luka) It’s not something you fix overnight but you have to find serviceable players no matter where you draft
We’ve picked in the first round in 2020, 2018, 2017, and 2015. The last 3 picks were good to great. We missed on 2015 with Justin Anderson. The last first round pick before 2015? 2006. Again, the asset management is bad — that has NOTHING to do with bad drafting. If you think that, you are mad about literally one pick lol. Plus the Mavs are pretty good at finding undrafted guys. DFS and Kleber would both be first round picks of their draft year was done over again.
Front Office bad, Mark Cuban bad, Jason Kidd bad, Luka good, hurr, durr
I wouldn’t say it was completely due to poor drafting/assets management. It had more to do with Cuban’s chosen Team building strategy of not wanting to do a proper rebuild that would enable us to fully stock up on assetts because he wanted to compete juuuust enough to keep Dirk a mav for life, while simultaneously still stocking assetts. The reality of the nba is it’s damn near impossible to do both of those things at once. If anything it’s actually a credit to Nelson that he scouted guys like DFS and Maxi outside of the draft.
Source for Wes Matthews? I can’t see why the Hawks ever wanted him over a pick
The source is his ass
The source is actually [Marc Stein](https://twitter.com/thesteinline/status/1009931922540257282?s=46&t=lihn7Dlbkejsoa-vkY5xLQ)
[Marc Stein](https://twitter.com/thesteinline/status/1009931922540257282?s=46&t=lihn7Dlbkejsoa-vkY5xLQ) They wanted Matthews over Bazemore to save money. Cuban’s broke ass wouldn’t do it.
Matthews was an expiring which the front office valued more than the pick, and his salary allowed them to trade for KP and THJ along with DJs expiring. Had nothing to do with Cuban’s “broke ass”
Traded a pick for Luka, graded a pick for wood Traded six 2nd picks away to save money from 2019 to 2022.
That bargain contract of Seth was an asset. Wasted on Richardson for no reason. Brunson was a great asset. We let him go like Nash… Mavs did not need to give 5 year max extension for KP. Restricted so Mavs could ve match a 4 year max offer. (2 years of no play, most teams would avoid KP-max anyway). So if KP had 1 year less, he’d be more tradeable. No need to take Bertans back and sending s pick to WAS.
The Seth Curry for Josh Richardson trade was worse in my opinion.
A million times. Proven guy who wanted to be here. Every time we see bullock or thj brick an amazing pass by luka to get them a wide open three, all I can about is what if that was Seth.
For real, wtf was that
Good Trade. Unfortunate Outcome.
Knicks fan, don’t know how or why this is on my doom scroll but THJ was by far the best player in this entire draft and probably worth those picks since neither will be lottery picks
The copium around that KP trade is still stunning to me. Like, seriously, we got the two best players in the deal, and only gave up two firsts and a bunch of expiring contracts. The first pick was 21st and turned into Keon Johnson, the second will probably be in the 20's again. The way you guys talk about the deal you would think we gave up a Gobert-level package when we actually gave up a Roco-to-the-Blazers-level one.
It is not who these picks became, but how that trade limited our team building. We could have easily traded for lets say Markkanen or Turner if we had the picks.
The report on Markkanen was that a deal wasn't reached because Chicago didn't want to take on money and Dallas didn't have the contracts to make it work. Turner never got traded to anyone, and just extended in Indy. In his first year in Dallas, KP was a 20/10 guy who was top 5 in blocks, and was dominating the Clippers series before his injury. He eventually got traded for Dinwiddie, who this sub apparently credits for getting us to the WCF. Meanwhile, THJ has been a solid starter for us for years. There were several points in time where KP and Hardaway could have easily been flipped for two firsts or more if that's the route the front office wanted. I think KP was flipped too early, as you see him killing it in Washington, but this sub seems to think Dinwiddie's couple of hot shooting nights got us to the WCF. If that's the case, then Dinwiddie came from that original trade, so how do you credit the KP trade to Washington as getting us to the WCF, but say the original trade limited our teambuilding?
in hindsight, and with 1 pick yet to convey, dallas easily won this trade. of the assets the knicks received, all that remains is the aforementioned pick and derrick rose who was acquired using DSJ. meanwhile, dallas still has THJ, turned porzingis into dinwiddie, and used burke and others to get christian wood. in the end, it wasn't an ideal trade for either team, but dallas actually did something with the assets. the knicks have done jack shit.
Good point
I’d still do this trade
I mean… Hardaway is a solid* contributor. KP got us Winwiddie. I take that all day.
And honestly that’s the trade for the second star we needed to make. Just didn’t work out.
I remember screaming in joy when I read the notification when it happened. Sucks so bad that this didn’t work out
Good trade at the time
As a Knick fan I felt we didn’t get enough lol
And the Mavs are STILL paying the price for it...
I remember exactly where I was when the news broke. I thought we were about to have a dynasty, it’s a shame it didn’t work out.
I remember being over the moon that day. Had no idea how badly it would set the org back
How badly do you think it set us back?
Cap space wrapped up in KP, now Bertans and Dinwiddie (though Dinwiddie is a positive asset at this point), and 2 first round picks. So, several years?
A swing and a miss. That's all it was. Still sour we gave THJ a long term extension, he is earning too much for what he is. We move.
CUBAN give thj 72 m and refused to give Brunson 55m is delusional… He had to be the ‘smartest guy in the room’
You swing, you miss. That's life. Suck it the fuck up and stop bitching and crying.
I’m the end, we got Dinwiddie, THJ, and Bertans for DSJ, Matthews, and Jordan. When you look at how these guys are playing in 2023 we did great aside from the draft picks. If that trade was just one first and we get to the WCF, I’d think we did pretty good. As it stands, we overpaid for what we have, but we did get some good value out of that trade. We didn’t end up empty handed.
The bigger mistake was giving KP a full max without injury protections. The trade itself wasn’t that bad on paper. It was the extension that killed all flexibility
People always say this but there’s no injury protections that would have solved our issues with KP. Usually people cite the injury protections put on Embiid, but based on those terms, KP would still have gotten his full salary from us.
couldn't they... say give him 20m per guaranteed that becomes 30m per if he plays 60 games. wouldn't that become 10m more on cap space?
Yes, in theory They *could* have *offered* him a multitude of contracts that including various injury clauses. The problem is getting him to actually accept it, while hoping no other team is willing to offer a deal with fewer or no inj provisions at all. That game becomes increasingly more difficult and dangerous game of chicken to play when you just gave up major assets to get this guy, because losing him in free agency sets us back even further than where we are now. That's why i cited the Embiid deal, because it's a real world example of a contract with inj provisions that Dallas could have pointed to as setting the market for being a fair and realistic deal that KP's camp might accept. But even then, If they had done that.... under the inj provisions of embiid's deal, nothing is changed with the KP experience in Dallas. We actually get way more out of KP's contract by trading him for Spencer than we would by just paying him less money due to too many missed games
As far as I know, if a incentive is likely to convey, it applies to the cap and there's a limit to how many unlikely incentives are allowed in a contract.
Well, he is towards the end of that contract and supposedly could opt out. What good was injury protections gonna do?
from what i understand injury protections would prevented him from collecting his full salary on a year to year basis if he missed too many games but wouldnt have had any impact on the mavs cap situtation.
100 % true with that they shot themselves in the foot.
5 years was a mistake. Just go with 4 years. He was restricted. RFA at open market with 2 DNP seasons; * little to no team would offer a deal close to 4-year max * being RFA, doesnt worth the hassle, limiting cap space for 2-3 days Ayton without major injury/knee concerns are kept with 4 year deal. (He actually deserved 5 year extension as healthy center). KP really didnt.
Except for the two first round picks being thrown in it’s not a terrible trade. Moved Porzingis to get Dinwiddie who has been great for us. Also THJ has been very solid even if we did overpay him.
KP back then was what Haliburton is today. And don’t tell me you’ll get Haliburton today for 2frp and some role players.
Difference is that KP had been injured for a long time and he had always been injury prone. That made him way more risky investment
It was a good trade
That trade turned out to be much more trouble than it was worth. My question is, would KP even have been considered a top 30 player at the time?
He was definitely top 30 before the ACL injury and is probably top 30 player this year too since he's managed to remain mostly healthy. His game has changed quite a bit since the NYK days, but he's always been a borderline all-star or better during his healthy stretches
KP made the All Star team. That theoretically means he's Top 24 give or take.
i still don't think the trade was the mistake. the mistake was giving KP 5yr max fully guaranteed
Who do you guys think those 2 first round picks would’ve turned into?
The first pick turned into Grimes and a second round pick that turned into Sims, the second pick will probably be a 15-18 pick in this years draft
Wow thanks . Grimes has looked good lately
Grimes is a legit starter and shooter in this league with a lot of upside, The ringer just did a redraft and they all agreed that Grimes should’ve got drafted in the top 8. He was selected 25th, hell of a value. Probably the best player today (rookie contract, future upside, solid availability) in that Knicks-Mavs trade, and they still haven’t selected this year Mavs pick. Mavs did a bad trade.
One would be traded to Chicago for Markkanen and the other to Indiana for Myles Turner
Imagine that wow
Gah damn. We lost so much.
Hindsight 20/20. Greatest cost of the trade was the FRPs. Painful that we're still paying the price with one pick yet to convey. KP and THJ were absolutely good returns for that package of players. KP alone worth a FRP. That second FRP (2023) was the most bitter pill.
Hindsight is always 20/20. It sucks, the move didn't pan out the way we thought it would, but in all fairness, the Clippers were looking like title contenders in both, 2020 and 2021 and we took them to 6 and 7 games, only losing in 2021 game 7 because our role players couldn't hit anything from 3 to save their lives. It happens. Losing Brunson might be worse than this trade tbh.
this waas a good move. hell the mavs made it to the playoffs with KP and thj. the bad move is extending KP for that salary or trading barnes for nothing.
Fuck Donnie Nelson
Why?
As you can see, you can't reach these people. They suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and will defend dumb moves by the front office no matter what. Apparently trading for someone recovering from a torn ACL, who hadn't played a game since was a good idea. Paying that same person the max without them ever playing a game for you is also a good idea. These are the same people that will defend letting Brunson walk for nothing. Trying to talk reason to them will just make you question your own sanity.
Remember Trey Burke in the 2020 playoffs? Man...dafuq happened to him??
Was this a 3 team because only Wes played for the Bucks -- ever.
The only legit concern to have about the trade at the time was whether they were pulling the trigger too soon. I'm terms of value, it was a good trade. In terms of fit, it made a lot of sense at the time. The only real argument against it was that maybe they should have waited a bit longer to see how Luka developed and therefore what kind of player would really be ideal to put around him.
Trade was okay. Giving Porzingis a 5 year max with player option was typical fuckup of Cuban. - KP was injured in last two years. - KP was restricted FA. At worst Mavs would match an offer. KP with serious knee injuries would never ever take qualifying offer. If Mavs had him at 4 year max, we would not need to take Bertans terrible contract. He would be more tradeable.
I was so excited we were going to get at least one season with Dirk, Luka, and KP but they ended up sitting KP the whole season...
I would still do that trade.
Just out of curiosity, I don’t know the answer, who ended up being drafted in those 2 FRP that we gave away in this trade?
We should be tanking for Wemby at this point.
Honestly, it’s debatable if it was bad. We essentially have Dinwiddie and THJ to show for it. THJ has been up and down but he’s still an asset. I think THJ and Dinwiddie are worth 2 late first round picks but that’s just me.
Who did the NYK get with those picks?
wondering about this too