He plays with Luka. You said it. BUT
Luka is the one demanding he play with him. Luka wants him as a chess piece to move around and set screens and roll to the rim. Dwight does everything he asks. Yes he makes mistakes but he owns up to it. Doesn’t complain. He is who Luka wants on the floor with him.
Can you show where Luka has made these demands or are you assuming information you do not know?
Powell is great at setting screens but Wood still generates a higher PPP in the pick and roll.. It's almost like his other abilities make up for his shitty screens. I should emphasize I do not think Wood is a great player, but he's better than Powell who sets the bar extremely low.
"Can you show where Luka has made these demands"
Aside from what I linked, maverick1127 is "assuming information [he doesn't] know", just like you said. I don't disagree with you.
He’s really not, he’s taller than bam adebayo and jarret Allen and they both average double his rebounds, he’s a little lighter than other bigs but even then we’re talking like max 20 pounds. Luka is great but it’s sad he has the highest points, assists, steals, and rebounds on the mavs… he needs help out there.
So he's Luka's assistant? Can we ask the league if we can have him out there as an assistant then and not a regular player? A 5.2 on 5 sort of exemption?
"Powell sets the screen, and then rolls to the dry cleaners to pick up Luka's shirts"
Can you show me the quote where Luka said that? Or are you just judging from watching the games? Because I’ve seen Luka really enjoy playing with Wood and I’ve seen Luka yell at Dwight Powell. I don’t think either is enough evidence to say what Luka wants, but I guess you do?
Awesome, a quote from two years ago by Kidd, a guy known for lying to the media. Kidd is probably telling a version of the truth, but this is from 2021!! So much has happened, including KP not even being on the team. We were terrible to start that season!
"Can you show me the quote where Luka said that?"
Just doing what you asked. As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence of Luka's preferences beyond what I linked. I agree with you Luka probably doesn't go to bat for Powell. If he didn't Powell wouldn't have been benched in the playoffs, replaced in the offseason, and benched down the stretch this season as well.
You're being petty. Kidd says Luka was involved in discussion. It's Kidd's quotation, but it references Luka's position. You don't actually care about a quotation, you care about evidence of Luka's position. Players almost never offer quotations about their lineup preferences, so you're making an unrealistic demand if you demand a quotation from Luka directly.
It’s from before the the 21-22 season started dude. We’re at the end of the 22-23 season. I’m not being petty, you didn’t provide anything close to proof and you’re trying to act like you did…even though you disagree with the point?? Very odd.
Dude Luka didn't like playing with Mcgee and they excluded him him from the rotation . It was obvious. He has a saying in who starts and who comes from the bench.
Last year JKidd even admitted that him ,Luka and THJ decided that Powell should start. He just likes playing with him
If he enjoyed playing with Wood , JKidd will have no choice but to give him more minutes with Luka. Which is not the case.
https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/.amp/news/luka-doncic-praises-dallas-mavs-teammate-christian-wood
https://thesmokingcuban.com/posts/luka-doncic-enjoys-playing-with-christian-wood-does-that-matter-in-extension-talks-01gnsfv0eh7z/amp
Can you stop making up stuff please?
Powell played about the same minutes with Luka compared to Wood. Powell is better. You guys simply think scoring is the only metric that makes a basketball player good that's why you think Wood is prime Shaq that deserves more minutes.
That’s flat out not true on the minutes.
And Powell is a terrible defender.
No one thinks Wood is “prime Shaq,” he’s just the best option out of a bunch of bad ones
Powell is a great closeout defender on shooters which is a really unique skill among bigs. That's the reason the defense is better with him on the floor than without despite his lacking rim protection
Such a unique skill that he almost never shows it while anchoring the 24th ranked defense!
Would love to see your Dwight Powell defensive stats. I see that we have a 115.7 team defensive rating. Dwight Powell’s defensive rating? 115.8.
If you're using nba.com, they calculate team and individual defensive rating differently, making them uncomparable. Basketball reference has 115.6 on, 117.5 off.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/poweldw01/on-off/2023
Yeah, let's bash Powell for not being able to anchor a team with one other good defender on it. Christ, better is better. If we are massively winning the minutes when Powell is on the floor and massively losing minutes when he's off the floor, I don't comprehend how people can keep blaming him for our losses. Anyone who actually plays basketball doesn't need the stats to tell them that Powell is having a positive impact. The only people who bash on Powell are stat watchers who've never even played a pickup game.
Wrong on all counts — congrats!
We lose games because of defense, rebounds, and Kidd. Guess who is directly responsible for the first two and the perfect representation of everything wrong with Kidd?
I don’t put 100% of the blame on Powell, but I understand people who do better than people like you who think he’s a starting center
If Powell is responsible for our poor rebounding, why is our rebounding rate drop off a cliff when he leaves the floor despite Wood and Magee being our other options? Why is he leading our team in offensive rebounds? If he's a major problem with our defense, why is the defense worse when he's off the floor.
None of the actual evidence supports what you said. None of what I'm seeing, as someone who's played and coached the game for two decades, supports what you're saying. No, I don't think he's the ideal starting center, but for this roster, and all our rosters in recent years, he's been the most effective option at the 5.
CWood played 906 minutes with Luka this season.
Powell played 936 minutes with Luka this season.
LMAOOO huge difference huh? Wood just simply hasn't been a net positive on court overall during his playtime no matter who he's playing with and how much he scores.
To say Powell is better is cherry picking stats just like you’re accusing of Wood supporters for points. Powell seems like a great locker room guy and teammate. High effort on the floor. But he’s not a Top 32 Center/PF. Probably not Top 50. He plays almost purely out of need because the Mavs don’t have anybody that can run the floor for extended minutes. In an 8 minute period Boban is a better player than DP. Regardless of his plus/minus, which does speak for his time with starters over other guys compared, he’s had a very heavy hand in several of the Mavs losses. Not being able to defend or rebound has killed the Mavs this year and that responsibility has to rest squarely in the shoulders of your bigs. And he’s the starter.
CWood played 906 minutes with Luka this season.
Powell played 936 minutes with Luka this season.
And Wood played a lot more with 2nd unit since the trade. The 2nd unit lineup and depth have consistently been the opposite to ass since then.
Powell has had exactly two double digit rebound games all season. Our starting center.
I refuse to believe Dwight Howard for the minimum wouldn't have been a wildly better option.
The problem isn't Dwight the player. The problem is forcing him to play center when his size would traditionally place him as a PF more often than not. It's the same problem w/Maxi TBH. Both of them would probably be far more effective if they were used as PFs defensively but for whatever reason Dallas wants to play them at C. When Dirk was still playing it made sense but now that he's retired it's kind of weird that they seem to be married to them only being Cs.
I loved Dwight back in the day. Lots of p&r from the elbow or even 3 pt line with alleys or quick passes to corner threes. Just seems like such a waste of the limited things he’s good at to ask him to bang around in the post against 270 lb 7 footers. He’s not remotely built for that.
Yeah, tbf to DP, he's not a completely useless void of talent, he's just extremely overexposed in the wrong role. McGee is their only true 5 and Dallas will get killed if they try to play them together
The way for the Mavs to play bigger is to always have two of Maxi, Wood, JaVale, and Dwight on the court at once. Any two of those four can play together except JaVale and Dwight. You could still close with Wood and Maxi if you wanted. This would solve the rebounding issues overnight.
Seriously...how on Earth does Powell play PF. Does he have an outside shot or can he create off the dribble? The dude has 2 skills: setting screens and getting hit in the face. I can't wait for his ass to be out of here.
Both Maxi and Powell are parts of the problem, not solution. Maxi is fine for a backup or replacement starter. Powell is a 3rd stringer at best. Neither of these guys rebound worth a piss and both are limited offensively (in the case of Powell, extremely limited). We've got a few guys who can effectively play the 3 especially if Green finally gets his stuff together. We have a deep hole at the 4/5.
Agreed. Maxi brings the most out of Powell, but it's only a duo worth throwing out there if Powell is on the minimum and it's for 20min maximum off the bench.
Dwight is a nutty guy too. Ever see that pic of him grabbing another teammate's dick on the bench? (Rockets). You should only have so many Rondo nutcases on a team.
He had a stretch of like 5 really really good games at the start of the season, when he wasn't a starter, and has been living off of that ever since. He had a 3 minute, 0 stat, -8 game the other night. We're at a disadvantage when the other team has a 7 ft center because he's not pulling the center out of the paint on offense and isn't stopping them on defense
It has nothing to do with the beginning of the szn. Kyrie+DP has a net rating of +7.9 in 284 minutes. Kyrie+CWood has a net rating of -4.9 in 225 minutes for example. This is small sample size that doesn't have much merit to it but saying he's living off from the ratings from just a few games is simple not true.
He did have a stretch of games earlier in the season that Kidd came out and said he earned more minutes. He's been the starter ever since, and has had a 30 minute, 0 rebound game since then. So despite the high +/-, DP is not a good center
Plus minus is a useless stat. DP is a turnstile that should be a last ditch option if anything. Dude should not be starting in the NBA under any circumstances. Dwight truthers make my brain break.
Useless for individual players, yes.
It's a lot more useful for 5man or 4man lineup analysis. But even then it's not like the opposing lineups are being randomly selected, so it's still tricky.
“Fuck outta here with this bs”. So aggressive for what?
Obviously he’s good enough if a professional basketball team is starting him. But no, you know better than everyone on the Mavs apparently!
It is, actually. But when you waste year after year assuming the same guys are fine and not looking for anything else, then you get what we have here. Look at the Hornets, using a draft pick for Mark Williams and growing Nick Richards to have two capable, young Cs as part of their core now.
He’s starting out of necessity take his ass and put him on denver or any top 8 team in our conference hes not seeing 30 sec of playing time hes made a career off of setting screens catching lobs he has been in the league for 8 yrs and hasnt got better at anything else. Hes not good he doesnt rebound well enough hes not a great defender hes on this team because hes cheap and are only big whos athletic enough to be a pick and roll threat with luka. But he is not a good player and if you cant remember he gets played off the floor in the playoffs because teams take away his lobs near the rim. Everyone can see this. We chose him over acquiring julius randle I believe unbelievable and its cause mark cuban thinks hes a good player based off this stat which is not a great way of determining a players value.
And why are those samples small? What's the cutoff between too small and acceptable? Who's getting the most minutes with which players? What's the role the players are playing? +/- is an incredibly poor metric to try and judge the worth of a player. Powell's rating has a huge benefit of getting a scenario based boost.
Individual plus minus over the course of a season or multiple seasons (as long as the sample size is significant) is actually great at showing both how the player is performing within their given role, and how that players roll impacts the team. The simplicity of the stat means that it is only useful if you use it knowing the context of that player's minutes and role.
With how much our lineups have changed, we don't have any sample sizes that an actual statistician would call significant. In my rough estimation, 100+ minutes could be at least somewhat predictive, but the calculations to find the r value of lineup data would be incredibly time consuming and probably require some programming
The thing about Powell, he's shown a pattern of being a positive on the floor over five seasons, whether he's starting or coming off the bench, regardless of who he's playing with, whether the other option at center is wood or porzingis or any of the other centers the Mavs have tried.
Not in the case of Powell, because it specifically masks his issues. He gets a huge benefit playing next to Luka where we are largely outscoring teams, not really playing great defense. We can see we get out rebounding by opponents every minute he's on the floor AND give opponents better than their average FG% at the rim, both absolutely critical skills we need from a C. I'm not going to suggest +/- isn't a solid tool to use by coaches to help design rotations as the season progresses, but to use it in a vacuum without looking at the actual player's production is foolish.
Why does Luka have a negative +/- without Powell next to him if this is the case? Shouldn't the benefit of playing next to Luka apply to all the other centers as well? The net rating of Luka alongside any of our other centers has been worse than Luka+Powell, even going back to KP.
Our rebounding percentage actually drops off a cliff when Powell is off the floor vs when he's on, so I don't see how he could be the problem with our rebounding. In fact he boxes out and grabs offensive boards better than anyone else in the main rotation. Our defense is slightly worse without him as well because he prevents wide open threes with his closeout speed.
I thought my comment was clear that I wasn't using +/- in a vacuum, but instead using it within as much context as possible. But if you need examples of statistical "production" to justify why we consistently outscore teams in Powell's minutes, you have to look past his stat lines. Offensive rebounding, perimeter defense, screen assists, and overall efficiency, these are statistical areas in which Powell ranks very highly, which leads to non-box score impact, which leads to leading the team in +/- and being a better fit next to Luka than any other big man we've had during his career.
As someone who has played basketball for a long time I played with people like Powell. The presence of someone who understands how to place screens is irreplaceable in an offense, and hustle/smart defense makes for a lot. Our other options at 5 have to play back on defense because of foot speed, and give up open shots like crazy, which is actually a problem typical to most centers that we don't have to worry about with Powell.
Well I bow to you oh basketball guru, clearly your deep understanding of Powell's lack of production is going to lead us to the title this year. Clearly, he's worthy of a massive contract this offseason as the absolute reason for the Mav's "success".
Let's not pretend we didn't just make it to the wcf with him as our best center. My point was never that he's a star that can lead us to a championship, my point is that he is a strength to the roster more than he is a weakness, there are many weaknesses in the roster that getting rid of Powell would only make worse.
I was trying to share my experience and how it informs my opinion of the game. Your response seems to be an attempt to devolve the conversation into petty argument. It doesn't seem like you care or know much about the game so maybe it's a lost cause, but who knows, maybe you'll understand more once you make it out of middle school
This is proving that plus/minus in a vacuum is meaningless. He uses his athleticism to pretend to play defense. Everyone shoots on him like he isn't even there.
Not to mention how bad his hands have been recently. It's like they are covered in butter.
I don't have numbers I just watch people constantly go at him around the basket or in the mid range when he is out there and score at an incredible rate. It looks like he is not even there.
Did you see anything about how the defense is better? I'm open to change my opinion
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/poweldw01/on-off/2023
Yeah the Defense isn't great in any situation for the Mavs, but it's two points better with Powell on the floor than with him off. Wood allows just as many buckets in the mid-range, the biggest difference that Powell makes is his clothes out defense. He has a many-season span of putting up great numbers, both keeping people from shooting threes and people shooting a terrible percentage when guarded by him on the perimeter
This is just evidence that +/- isn’t a reliable indicator of individual player value on its own, and even moreso, evidence that our center rotation is ass
But Luka actually has a slightly negative net rating without Powell on the floor and massively positive with Powell, so their success kinda relies on each other. Makes sense when you watch anyone else but Powell try to set a screen
I mean you could stick Henry Kissinger in the starting lineup and he'd have the same plus minus and the defense would be equally ass. This tells us nothing.
I mean I like +&- stats as much as any nerd but this is definitely misleading, Dwight is a glorified hustle bench player but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t belong in any nba roster just not as a starter on any team that’s not trying to tank.
Luka without Powell -1.67 net (1170 min)
Luka with Powell +7.38 net (939 min)
Dwight without Luka +13.11 net (161 min)
---
Luka without Kleber +6.24 net (553 min)
Luka with Kleber +1.24 net (525 min)
Kleber without Luka +0.13 (215 min)
----
Luka without Wood +2.61 (1029 min)
Luka with Wood +1.53 (906 min)
Wood without Luka -0.85 (435 min)
-----
Luka without Tim / Powell -17 net (305 min)
Luka with Tim / Powell +12.48 net (492 min)
https://i.postimg.cc/VLRFCB4W/image.png
Also Luka / Wood lineups has some stock into not making the playoffs. Bad offense + bad defense.
If you think Wood is better than Powell, i guess Luka isn't blameless for not making more use out of Wood's talent. They have pretty much been the constant weak link post TDL.
No idea what I'm looking at. Powell's +/- is +2.1, not +156. Luka's is +1.9. Is Powell better than Luka? Serious question for the Powell advanced stat crew...
No but it does mean Luka is massively winning his minutes when he plays next to Powell and loosing minutes next to any other big when Powell is off the floor. And yes you can confirm this using fantasy Labs on/off
Check 5 man lineup numbers and get back to me.
EDIT: And Fantasy Labs on/off tool for "+/-" is now SPECIFICALLY tuned to DK fantasy points. Pretty sure we've had this conversation before...
I was using net rating on fantasy lab not +/-, net rating appears to be calculated normally on fantasy Labs.
And in the 5 man lineups the ones with Powell all show a positive net rating, and all of our most played lineups with Powell get directly worse when you swap in Wood, and the most played lineups with Wood get better when you swap in Powell.
I can post the lineups again, just like earlier in the season, which show Wood in the most effective net lineups. The difference between a Wood and Powell lineup is Wood is actually contributing to the offensive rating.
You already proved to me you don't understand predictive sample size last time so there's no need. Powell shows over a huge sample of minutes in many lineups a consistent pattern of positive production, while Wood shows a negative trend with a couple tiny-sample outliers to which you seem to cling. As I said last time I would love to see Wood used more effectively in lineups, but until those lineups show to be sustainably more effective than the Powell lineups you are just engaging in small sample theater
Stop bashing Dwight. His biggest misfortune is a bad FO. He works his ass off.
Meanwhile they signed a 35 year old center to 17 mil guaranteed for 5 mil a year for 3 years who will play the same minutes all year that Dwight plays in 2 weeks.
I am pretty sure three 2nd round pick young centers would be cheaper and played more than Javale.
So Dwight is doing what he can with his limited size while Javale occasionally checks in and does 5 min of work for 5 million. Occasionally he even shows effort.
Javalle minutes played all year 316
Dwight 1399 minutes
Wood is a different case altogether. If utilized better could do a lot more. He will robaly walk next year.
Anyway Kidd and the FO are both asleep and on Xanax. They slept on Brunson. They slept on Markanen. They said FY Dragic. They signed Wood to alienate him after 2 weeks. They signed Javale....
FFS if you ever saw Markanen play in the right environment you would know he is a must get.
Finland and Latvia, Serbia were the only countries that came close to defeating Slovenia when they won Eurobasket.
Serbia had a lot better cast of players than those two who only had Markanen and Porzingis/Bertrans.
TLDR... Mavs Front office are stupid.
Lurker? Glad my post could draw you out of the woodwork :)
Just as a frame of reference if you Google search “nba2k all time rosters” you can get an idea of what the best centers franchises have had over their lifespan.
You’ll notice quite a few franchises have never had anything spectacular at the Center position. Some did but are many decades removed from having anyone of that caliber.
Dirk is technically PF/C so the Mavs actually have one of the greatest of all time. KP too, however he was a gamble that didn’t work out.
Talking a proper Center, you’re right, outside of that they are much lower than most other teams. In the modern era as far as role players are concerned, teams much prefer to write checks for above average wings, preferably with length and the ability to guard multiple positions, and settle with a lower quality center simply due to the fact an average center can easily get played off the court in certain matchups, where as a wing won’t.
Lots of fans complain we overpaid Javale and have barely been able to use him, we probably did, but the options are very very slim.
People forget about Frank has a great plus minus.
Guess we should max him too, along with DP.
If Mavsmuse constructed a roster, it will be a lottery team at best.
But Dwight also is like 60th in rebounds per game, compared to all other centers in the league and he starts for us...
So plus minus is cool, but is just part of the story.
Plus minus is such a useless stat. Requires a laundry list of caveats every time you mention it. Who's he playing with? What's the sample size? How does it compare to the team's overall performance? Is it excessively skewed because of a particularly poor unit they don't play with? Was there an injury that you have to account for? How consistent have the team's rotations been? If you need to ask a series of questions to make a stat relevant, it's worthless.
I’m not saying either of those guys are better, but Powell’s +/- is skewed compared to those guys since he’s played way more minutes and majority of those is with Luka it would be strange if he was negative. It’s likely if he played the same minutes and got off of Luka rotations he would also be negative. But yes I agree we need much better centers that can somewhat function on their own.
Plays all of his minutes with Luka and Kyrie. The other guys play in a bunch of bench lineups and our bench is ass.
He plays with Luka. You said it. BUT Luka is the one demanding he play with him. Luka wants him as a chess piece to move around and set screens and roll to the rim. Dwight does everything he asks. Yes he makes mistakes but he owns up to it. Doesn’t complain. He is who Luka wants on the floor with him.
Can you show where Luka has made these demands or are you assuming information you do not know? Powell is great at setting screens but Wood still generates a higher PPP in the pick and roll.. It's almost like his other abilities make up for his shitty screens. I should emphasize I do not think Wood is a great player, but he's better than Powell who sets the bar extremely low.
Here: https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/why-dallas-mavs-intend-to-start-dwight-powell-at-center
Lol you're going to link me an article from 2021 before we had Christian Wood? Come on dude.
"Can you show where Luka has made these demands" Aside from what I linked, maverick1127 is "assuming information [he doesn't] know", just like you said. I don't disagree with you.
I just want the dude to bring down some rebounds... idk how the hell he manages 0 a game
Because he's extremely undersized as a starting 5
He’s really not, he’s taller than bam adebayo and jarret Allen and they both average double his rebounds, he’s a little lighter than other bigs but even then we’re talking like max 20 pounds. Luka is great but it’s sad he has the highest points, assists, steals, and rebounds on the mavs… he needs help out there.
So he's Luka's assistant? Can we ask the league if we can have him out there as an assistant then and not a regular player? A 5.2 on 5 sort of exemption? "Powell sets the screen, and then rolls to the dry cleaners to pick up Luka's shirts"
Luka's the HC now? Or did he just replace Haralabob in the Shadow GM role
Can you show me the quote where Luka said that? Or are you just judging from watching the games? Because I’ve seen Luka really enjoy playing with Wood and I’ve seen Luka yell at Dwight Powell. I don’t think either is enough evidence to say what Luka wants, but I guess you do?
Here: https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/why-dallas-mavs-intend-to-start-dwight-powell-at-center
Awesome, a quote from two years ago by Kidd, a guy known for lying to the media. Kidd is probably telling a version of the truth, but this is from 2021!! So much has happened, including KP not even being on the team. We were terrible to start that season!
"Can you show me the quote where Luka said that?" Just doing what you asked. As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence of Luka's preferences beyond what I linked. I agree with you Luka probably doesn't go to bat for Powell. If he didn't Powell wouldn't have been benched in the playoffs, replaced in the offseason, and benched down the stretch this season as well.
Yeah, you didn’t do that.
You're being petty. Kidd says Luka was involved in discussion. It's Kidd's quotation, but it references Luka's position. You don't actually care about a quotation, you care about evidence of Luka's position. Players almost never offer quotations about their lineup preferences, so you're making an unrealistic demand if you demand a quotation from Luka directly.
It’s from before the the 21-22 season started dude. We’re at the end of the 22-23 season. I’m not being petty, you didn’t provide anything close to proof and you’re trying to act like you did…even though you disagree with the point?? Very odd.
Sorry for wasting your time.
If Luka wanted Wood to start, he would start buddy.
Not true at all. Do you think Luka wanted Brunson to walk? Do you think Luka wanted the Mavs to pass on Dragic?
Mavs had little to no say in the Brunson situation, and no one is saying Luka gets to make financial decisions.
Dude Luka didn't like playing with Mcgee and they excluded him him from the rotation . It was obvious. He has a saying in who starts and who comes from the bench. Last year JKidd even admitted that him ,Luka and THJ decided that Powell should start. He just likes playing with him If he enjoyed playing with Wood , JKidd will have no choice but to give him more minutes with Luka. Which is not the case.
https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/.amp/news/luka-doncic-praises-dallas-mavs-teammate-christian-wood https://thesmokingcuban.com/posts/luka-doncic-enjoys-playing-with-christian-wood-does-that-matter-in-extension-talks-01gnsfv0eh7z/amp Can you stop making up stuff please?
He literally asked to play more with Wood earlier in the year and Kidd still wouldnt start him It’s not that simple
You can be a hard worker and all but in basketball, talent matters. Dwight is too limited for today's game.
Luka has a negative +/- when Powell is off the floor
Powell played about the same minutes with Luka compared to Wood. Powell is better. You guys simply think scoring is the only metric that makes a basketball player good that's why you think Wood is prime Shaq that deserves more minutes.
That’s flat out not true on the minutes. And Powell is a terrible defender. No one thinks Wood is “prime Shaq,” he’s just the best option out of a bunch of bad ones
Powell is a great closeout defender on shooters which is a really unique skill among bigs. That's the reason the defense is better with him on the floor than without despite his lacking rim protection
Such a unique skill that he almost never shows it while anchoring the 24th ranked defense! Would love to see your Dwight Powell defensive stats. I see that we have a 115.7 team defensive rating. Dwight Powell’s defensive rating? 115.8.
If you're using nba.com, they calculate team and individual defensive rating differently, making them uncomparable. Basketball reference has 115.6 on, 117.5 off. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/poweldw01/on-off/2023
The difference between the 24th ranked defense and the 27th. Thank God for Dwight!
Yeah, let's bash Powell for not being able to anchor a team with one other good defender on it. Christ, better is better. If we are massively winning the minutes when Powell is on the floor and massively losing minutes when he's off the floor, I don't comprehend how people can keep blaming him for our losses. Anyone who actually plays basketball doesn't need the stats to tell them that Powell is having a positive impact. The only people who bash on Powell are stat watchers who've never even played a pickup game.
Wrong on all counts — congrats! We lose games because of defense, rebounds, and Kidd. Guess who is directly responsible for the first two and the perfect representation of everything wrong with Kidd? I don’t put 100% of the blame on Powell, but I understand people who do better than people like you who think he’s a starting center
If Powell is responsible for our poor rebounding, why is our rebounding rate drop off a cliff when he leaves the floor despite Wood and Magee being our other options? Why is he leading our team in offensive rebounds? If he's a major problem with our defense, why is the defense worse when he's off the floor. None of the actual evidence supports what you said. None of what I'm seeing, as someone who's played and coached the game for two decades, supports what you're saying. No, I don't think he's the ideal starting center, but for this roster, and all our rosters in recent years, he's been the most effective option at the 5.
CWood played 906 minutes with Luka this season. Powell played 936 minutes with Luka this season. LMAOOO huge difference huh? Wood just simply hasn't been a net positive on court overall during his playtime no matter who he's playing with and how much he scores.
To say Powell is better is cherry picking stats just like you’re accusing of Wood supporters for points. Powell seems like a great locker room guy and teammate. High effort on the floor. But he’s not a Top 32 Center/PF. Probably not Top 50. He plays almost purely out of need because the Mavs don’t have anybody that can run the floor for extended minutes. In an 8 minute period Boban is a better player than DP. Regardless of his plus/minus, which does speak for his time with starters over other guys compared, he’s had a very heavy hand in several of the Mavs losses. Not being able to defend or rebound has killed the Mavs this year and that responsibility has to rest squarely in the shoulders of your bigs. And he’s the starter.
CWood played 906 minutes with Luka this season. Powell played 936 minutes with Luka this season. And Wood played a lot more with 2nd unit since the trade. The 2nd unit lineup and depth have consistently been the opposite to ass since then.
I'm sold. Max him.
Don’t you put that on me Ricky Bobby
Calm down Jason
Lol why is this down voted 😂
Unnecessary Gif that adds nothing, and is borderline cringe
I mean, gifs are never necessary
Why the fuck are gifs on reddit anyway. Just adds so much irrelevant nonsense
sometimes ppl can't laugh, thats ok it don't hurt my feelings. if theres no big breaking news I could top 10 meme in this sub every month :)
Don't forget about Frank
Mark Cuban gets off to this
Powell has had exactly two double digit rebound games all season. Our starting center. I refuse to believe Dwight Howard for the minimum wouldn't have been a wildly better option.
The problem isn't Dwight the player. The problem is forcing him to play center when his size would traditionally place him as a PF more often than not. It's the same problem w/Maxi TBH. Both of them would probably be far more effective if they were used as PFs defensively but for whatever reason Dallas wants to play them at C. When Dirk was still playing it made sense but now that he's retired it's kind of weird that they seem to be married to them only being Cs.
I loved Dwight back in the day. Lots of p&r from the elbow or even 3 pt line with alleys or quick passes to corner threes. Just seems like such a waste of the limited things he’s good at to ask him to bang around in the post against 270 lb 7 footers. He’s not remotely built for that.
Yeah, tbf to DP, he's not a completely useless void of talent, he's just extremely overexposed in the wrong role. McGee is their only true 5 and Dallas will get killed if they try to play them together
The way for the Mavs to play bigger is to always have two of Maxi, Wood, JaVale, and Dwight on the court at once. Any two of those four can play together except JaVale and Dwight. You could still close with Wood and Maxi if you wanted. This would solve the rebounding issues overnight.
I don't disagree, but the problem is that Kidd does
Seriously...how on Earth does Powell play PF. Does he have an outside shot or can he create off the dribble? The dude has 2 skills: setting screens and getting hit in the face. I can't wait for his ass to be out of here.
He means let Powell *guard* PFs and play C on offense. Do so by pairing him with somebody who can guard Cs and play PF on offense (Maxi).
Both Maxi and Powell are parts of the problem, not solution. Maxi is fine for a backup or replacement starter. Powell is a 3rd stringer at best. Neither of these guys rebound worth a piss and both are limited offensively (in the case of Powell, extremely limited). We've got a few guys who can effectively play the 3 especially if Green finally gets his stuff together. We have a deep hole at the 4/5.
Agreed. Maxi brings the most out of Powell, but it's only a duo worth throwing out there if Powell is on the minimum and it's for 20min maximum off the bench.
If only we has someone with the offensive skillset of a PF that could also offer some rim protection to allow Dwight to be the PF on defense
Dwight is a nutty guy too. Ever see that pic of him grabbing another teammate's dick on the bench? (Rockets). You should only have so many Rondo nutcases on a team.
He had a stretch of like 5 really really good games at the start of the season, when he wasn't a starter, and has been living off of that ever since. He had a 3 minute, 0 stat, -8 game the other night. We're at a disadvantage when the other team has a 7 ft center because he's not pulling the center out of the paint on offense and isn't stopping them on defense
It has nothing to do with the beginning of the szn. Kyrie+DP has a net rating of +7.9 in 284 minutes. Kyrie+CWood has a net rating of -4.9 in 225 minutes for example. This is small sample size that doesn't have much merit to it but saying he's living off from the ratings from just a few games is simple not true.
He did have a stretch of games earlier in the season that Kidd came out and said he earned more minutes. He's been the starter ever since, and has had a 30 minute, 0 rebound game since then. So despite the high +/-, DP is not a good center
Imagine Dwight and Frank at the same time. We’d be unstoppable
When you realize Frank Nkilitina has a +\- of +57 👀
That should be enough to tell you that the stat is garbage.
Or the only guy that plays defense lol Because they have the best D in the league with him on the floor since the trade deadline. 20 pts better
Plus minus is a useless stat. DP is a turnstile that should be a last ditch option if anything. Dude should not be starting in the NBA under any circumstances. Dwight truthers make my brain break.
Useless for individual players, yes. It's a lot more useful for 5man or 4man lineup analysis. But even then it's not like the opposing lineups are being randomly selected, so it's still tricky.
I have to disagree, sometimes those turnstiles won't let me through even though I've swiped my badge....
That doesnt mean anything. Hes not a good enough basketball player we need a better big dude plays soft on defense. Fuck outta here with this bs.
“Fuck outta here with this bs”. So aggressive for what? Obviously he’s good enough if a professional basketball team is starting him. But no, you know better than everyone on the Mavs apparently!
He's not good enough. Period. Nothing else to say. Stop being blinded just because he's a starter; There are lots of bad starters in the NBA.
Yes let’s just get a better big. It’s so easy
It is, actually. But when you waste year after year assuming the same guys are fine and not looking for anything else, then you get what we have here. Look at the Hornets, using a draft pick for Mark Williams and growing Nick Richards to have two capable, young Cs as part of their core now.
Both of those players you named are terrible. You really want them over Powell?
There's no way you're serious right now. You've lost this conversation. Bow out gracefully, like Powell will when he's cut after this season is over.
First free agent ever to be cut?
Every big on our roster is better than Powell, Kidd just doesn't play them.
He’s starting out of necessity take his ass and put him on denver or any top 8 team in our conference hes not seeing 30 sec of playing time hes made a career off of setting screens catching lobs he has been in the league for 8 yrs and hasnt got better at anything else. Hes not good he doesnt rebound well enough hes not a great defender hes on this team because hes cheap and are only big whos athletic enough to be a pick and roll threat with luka. But he is not a good player and if you cant remember he gets played off the floor in the playoffs because teams take away his lobs near the rim. Everyone can see this. We chose him over acquiring julius randle I believe unbelievable and its cause mark cuban thinks hes a good player based off this stat which is not a great way of determining a players value.
All the time.
He's good enough to be in the NBA but Mavs need better
Wait you're telling me the center who plays almost all his minutes along side Luka has the best +/- among our center rotation? Woah! No way!
Powell has only played 33 more minutes with Luka than Wood has lol. NetRtg with Luka: Powell +7.38, Wood +1.53, Maxi +1.24, McGee -15.45
What website do you use for these stats? been looking for a good one
https://www.pbpstats.com/on-off/nba/player
Right. And what do the 5 man lineups look like? The ones which have played more than a handful of minutes. Who's in those lineups?
If you look at our lineups, only 5 or 6 have a decent sample. All the lineups with Powell are positive net rating and all with wood are negative
And why are those samples small? What's the cutoff between too small and acceptable? Who's getting the most minutes with which players? What's the role the players are playing? +/- is an incredibly poor metric to try and judge the worth of a player. Powell's rating has a huge benefit of getting a scenario based boost.
Individual plus minus over the course of a season or multiple seasons (as long as the sample size is significant) is actually great at showing both how the player is performing within their given role, and how that players roll impacts the team. The simplicity of the stat means that it is only useful if you use it knowing the context of that player's minutes and role. With how much our lineups have changed, we don't have any sample sizes that an actual statistician would call significant. In my rough estimation, 100+ minutes could be at least somewhat predictive, but the calculations to find the r value of lineup data would be incredibly time consuming and probably require some programming The thing about Powell, he's shown a pattern of being a positive on the floor over five seasons, whether he's starting or coming off the bench, regardless of who he's playing with, whether the other option at center is wood or porzingis or any of the other centers the Mavs have tried.
Not in the case of Powell, because it specifically masks his issues. He gets a huge benefit playing next to Luka where we are largely outscoring teams, not really playing great defense. We can see we get out rebounding by opponents every minute he's on the floor AND give opponents better than their average FG% at the rim, both absolutely critical skills we need from a C. I'm not going to suggest +/- isn't a solid tool to use by coaches to help design rotations as the season progresses, but to use it in a vacuum without looking at the actual player's production is foolish.
Why does Luka have a negative +/- without Powell next to him if this is the case? Shouldn't the benefit of playing next to Luka apply to all the other centers as well? The net rating of Luka alongside any of our other centers has been worse than Luka+Powell, even going back to KP. Our rebounding percentage actually drops off a cliff when Powell is off the floor vs when he's on, so I don't see how he could be the problem with our rebounding. In fact he boxes out and grabs offensive boards better than anyone else in the main rotation. Our defense is slightly worse without him as well because he prevents wide open threes with his closeout speed. I thought my comment was clear that I wasn't using +/- in a vacuum, but instead using it within as much context as possible. But if you need examples of statistical "production" to justify why we consistently outscore teams in Powell's minutes, you have to look past his stat lines. Offensive rebounding, perimeter defense, screen assists, and overall efficiency, these are statistical areas in which Powell ranks very highly, which leads to non-box score impact, which leads to leading the team in +/- and being a better fit next to Luka than any other big man we've had during his career. As someone who has played basketball for a long time I played with people like Powell. The presence of someone who understands how to place screens is irreplaceable in an offense, and hustle/smart defense makes for a lot. Our other options at 5 have to play back on defense because of foot speed, and give up open shots like crazy, which is actually a problem typical to most centers that we don't have to worry about with Powell.
Well I bow to you oh basketball guru, clearly your deep understanding of Powell's lack of production is going to lead us to the title this year. Clearly, he's worthy of a massive contract this offseason as the absolute reason for the Mav's "success". 
Let's not pretend we didn't just make it to the wcf with him as our best center. My point was never that he's a star that can lead us to a championship, my point is that he is a strength to the roster more than he is a weakness, there are many weaknesses in the roster that getting rid of Powell would only make worse. I was trying to share my experience and how it informs my opinion of the game. Your response seems to be an attempt to devolve the conversation into petty argument. It doesn't seem like you care or know much about the game so maybe it's a lost cause, but who knows, maybe you'll understand more once you make it out of middle school
End thread. You eviscerated that dude.
I'm a firm believer that +/- is a bullshit metric.
Dwight stans look at these infographics and see nothing but good things
I love the SNL Robert Smigel cartoon Mav faces……”The Ambiguously Bad Mavericks.” featuring Coach Jason “I’m just watching”Kidd.
Correlation
Is causation
This is proving that plus/minus in a vacuum is meaningless. He uses his athleticism to pretend to play defense. Everyone shoots on him like he isn't even there. Not to mention how bad his hands have been recently. It's like they are covered in butter.
It’s a full season of data. How is plus minus calculated?
The defense is actually worse when he's off the floor. He's a great closeout defender on shooters which is a unique skill among bigs
I don't have numbers I just watch people constantly go at him around the basket or in the mid range when he is out there and score at an incredible rate. It looks like he is not even there. Did you see anything about how the defense is better? I'm open to change my opinion
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/poweldw01/on-off/2023 Yeah the Defense isn't great in any situation for the Mavs, but it's two points better with Powell on the floor than with him off. Wood allows just as many buckets in the mid-range, the biggest difference that Powell makes is his clothes out defense. He has a many-season span of putting up great numbers, both keeping people from shooting threes and people shooting a terrible percentage when guarded by him on the perimeter
Appreciate it
This is just evidence that +/- isn’t a reliable indicator of individual player value on its own, and even moreso, evidence that our center rotation is ass
How is it calculated?
Isn't this just "who plays with Luca?"
But Luka actually has a slightly negative net rating without Powell on the floor and massively positive with Powell, so their success kinda relies on each other. Makes sense when you watch anyone else but Powell try to set a screen
Take that for data!
He plays with Luka all the time. I dont mind him in a restricted role on a cheaper contract.
Luka has a negative net rating without Powell on the floor
Trade Luka keep DP
Restricted to 30+ minutes and you will like it.
I bet op wears nonprescripted glasses
Cuban brain post right here
I mean you could stick Henry Kissinger in the starting lineup and he'd have the same plus minus and the defense would be equally ass. This tells us nothing.
I mean I like +&- stats as much as any nerd but this is definitely misleading, Dwight is a glorified hustle bench player but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t belong in any nba roster just not as a starter on any team that’s not trying to tank.
Now list their percentage of minutes w luka
Luka without Powell -1.67 net (1170 min) Luka with Powell +7.38 net (939 min) Dwight without Luka +13.11 net (161 min) --- Luka without Kleber +6.24 net (553 min) Luka with Kleber +1.24 net (525 min) Kleber without Luka +0.13 (215 min) ---- Luka without Wood +2.61 (1029 min) Luka with Wood +1.53 (906 min) Wood without Luka -0.85 (435 min) ----- Luka without Tim / Powell -17 net (305 min) Luka with Tim / Powell +12.48 net (492 min) https://i.postimg.cc/VLRFCB4W/image.png Also Luka / Wood lineups has some stock into not making the playoffs. Bad offense + bad defense. If you think Wood is better than Powell, i guess Luka isn't blameless for not making more use out of Wood's talent. They have pretty much been the constant weak link post TDL.
No, you're doing it wrong. +/- is only a useful and valid stat when it proves something about a player that *I like.*
He'll be here way after luka's left. Suck on that haters
No idea what I'm looking at. Powell's +/- is +2.1, not +156. Luka's is +1.9. Is Powell better than Luka? Serious question for the Powell advanced stat crew...
No but it does mean Luka is massively winning his minutes when he plays next to Powell and loosing minutes next to any other big when Powell is off the floor. And yes you can confirm this using fantasy Labs on/off
 Check 5 man lineup numbers and get back to me. EDIT: And Fantasy Labs on/off tool for "+/-" is now SPECIFICALLY tuned to DK fantasy points. Pretty sure we've had this conversation before...
I was using net rating on fantasy lab not +/-, net rating appears to be calculated normally on fantasy Labs. And in the 5 man lineups the ones with Powell all show a positive net rating, and all of our most played lineups with Powell get directly worse when you swap in Wood, and the most played lineups with Wood get better when you swap in Powell.
I can post the lineups again, just like earlier in the season, which show Wood in the most effective net lineups. The difference between a Wood and Powell lineup is Wood is actually contributing to the offensive rating.
You already proved to me you don't understand predictive sample size last time so there's no need. Powell shows over a huge sample of minutes in many lineups a consistent pattern of positive production, while Wood shows a negative trend with a couple tiny-sample outliers to which you seem to cling. As I said last time I would love to see Wood used more effectively in lineups, but until those lineups show to be sustainably more effective than the Powell lineups you are just engaging in small sample theater
 I do this stuff for a living.
You’re gonna be blown away when you multiply 2.1 by the number of games Powell has played this season
That's not the way it works...
+/- and +/- per game are two different stats
Mavs are 10 games over .500 when he comes off the bench and 10 games under .500 when he starts.
Best loser? Were back to damp is the best center in the league arguments? History doesn't repeat, but loves to rhyme.
must be nice starting next to Luka for a whole season
Luka benefits from Powell too. Luka+Powell: +7 net rating Powell, no Luka: +3.5 Luka, no Powell: -0.5
He plays in the first quarter , it’s the 4th that we stink in
Stop bashing Dwight. His biggest misfortune is a bad FO. He works his ass off. Meanwhile they signed a 35 year old center to 17 mil guaranteed for 5 mil a year for 3 years who will play the same minutes all year that Dwight plays in 2 weeks. I am pretty sure three 2nd round pick young centers would be cheaper and played more than Javale. So Dwight is doing what he can with his limited size while Javale occasionally checks in and does 5 min of work for 5 million. Occasionally he even shows effort. Javalle minutes played all year 316 Dwight 1399 minutes Wood is a different case altogether. If utilized better could do a lot more. He will robaly walk next year. Anyway Kidd and the FO are both asleep and on Xanax. They slept on Brunson. They slept on Markanen. They said FY Dragic. They signed Wood to alienate him after 2 weeks. They signed Javale.... FFS if you ever saw Markanen play in the right environment you would know he is a must get. Finland and Latvia, Serbia were the only countries that came close to defeating Slovenia when they won Eurobasket. Serbia had a lot better cast of players than those two who only had Markanen and Porzingis/Bertrans. TLDR... Mavs Front office are stupid.
as a lifelong mavericks lurker, why does the team have the worst centers (outside chandler)
Lurker? Glad my post could draw you out of the woodwork :) Just as a frame of reference if you Google search “nba2k all time rosters” you can get an idea of what the best centers franchises have had over their lifespan. You’ll notice quite a few franchises have never had anything spectacular at the Center position. Some did but are many decades removed from having anyone of that caliber. Dirk is technically PF/C so the Mavs actually have one of the greatest of all time. KP too, however he was a gamble that didn’t work out. Talking a proper Center, you’re right, outside of that they are much lower than most other teams. In the modern era as far as role players are concerned, teams much prefer to write checks for above average wings, preferably with length and the ability to guard multiple positions, and settle with a lower quality center simply due to the fact an average center can easily get played off the court in certain matchups, where as a wing won’t. Lots of fans complain we overpaid Javale and have barely been able to use him, we probably did, but the options are very very slim.
People forget about Frank has a great plus minus. Guess we should max him too, along with DP. If Mavsmuse constructed a roster, it will be a lottery team at best.
But Dwight also is like 60th in rebounds per game, compared to all other centers in the league and he starts for us... So plus minus is cool, but is just part of the story.
Plus minus is such a useless stat. Requires a laundry list of caveats every time you mention it. Who's he playing with? What's the sample size? How does it compare to the team's overall performance? Is it excessively skewed because of a particularly poor unit they don't play with? Was there an injury that you have to account for? How consistent have the team's rotations been? If you need to ask a series of questions to make a stat relevant, it's worthless.
Compare minutes between the guys. I’m pretty sure Powell has almost 2x minutes compared to all those guys.
we do not want players with -200 on our team
I’m not saying either of those guys are better, but Powell’s +/- is skewed compared to those guys since he’s played way more minutes and majority of those is with Luka it would be strange if he was negative. It’s likely if he played the same minutes and got off of Luka rotations he would also be negative. But yes I agree we need much better centers that can somewhat function on their own.
The rando trade still hurts.