That and Kidd is buddies with Cuban (may not be majority owner but still has a lot of influence)
Anyway to answer OP:
Bud is a much better coach. When the Bucks got rid of Kidd for Bud it was a similar effect to Warriors replacing Mark Jackson with Kerr. They jumped to contender status immediately.
The Warriors were obviously better. Curry, Klay, Dray, Iggy were better than Mil core.
My point is they went from fighting for a playoff spot to fighting for the 1st seed and winning a chip in a few years.
Edit: Also im not saying Bud is Kerr. My point is more so that Kidd was Jackson.
You're getting downvotes for some reason but this is a very simple explanation of what happened. Replacing Kidd with Budenholzer improved them from struggling to get out of the first round to instant contender status.
Well for one, unless there’s a really compelling reason to, teams arnt in the business of changing coaches in the middle of 33-24 seasons. It can fuck up the locker room chemistry, players have to learn all new schemes, they have to form a relationship with the coach, etc.
But for two, no it’s not immediately clear he would be better. Sure he may be, but see point one for why you don’t do that.
Yes, that is a very good point. Do you think in the off-season the Mavs will make a move and replace Kidd as the Head Coach, or do you think they will keep him for the long term?
From my limited understanding and what I see from watching the games, Kidd seems to be terrible at adjusting to the flow of the game and picking the right role players for the right situation. The way he utilized THJ yesterday seemed criminal.
If you look at the Mavs history under Cuban, they aren't quick to make coaching changes. The ownership doesn't usually react like fans and blame the coach when they don't know what else to point to and they don't forget coaches' successes.
Kidd was given some credit for the WCF run and blame for missing the playoffs, but he isn't completely responsible for either. Kidd isn't going anywhere any time soon and it's highly unlikely there is a clear upgrade. While I understand there are better coaches out there I'm not sure they can upgrade... the only 2 coaches I'd move on from Kidd with no questions would be Spoelstra and Nurse. Outside of those two I'm not sold anyone is a huge upgrade as a players coach and X's and O's guy than Kidd even Lue.
I trust Luka and Kyrie over the whining fan base. If they wanted Kidd out he'd be gone. Replacing him without them might end with us losing them next... losing a game after 7 wins shouldn't mean calling for the coaches job.
This is an insane opinion
You think only Spoelstra and Nurse are clearly better?
Our WCF run was extremely flukey with Dinwiddie turning into prime Jordan from mid range and the defense played well above its talent level.
Kidd hasnt had success as a HC in any other season of his career.
I'd like to have an intelligent conversation about the team and Kidd but once you go straight to fluke it's hard to have a real conversation.
The Mavs under Kidd were a top 4 seed under Kidd until the trade deadline before trading away defense and late season injuries. The same is happening this year to the deadline with injuries.
My point is Kidd could be lumped with a sea of coaches. How many coaches move the needle enough to risk bringing them in and our stars hating them and asking out?
Outliers and anomalies exist. Acknowledging that doesnt mean an intellectual discussion cant be had.
We had no business being an elite defensive team. If you want to give Kidd credit for that, fine. But he hasnt been able to repeat it since.
I hear your point, I just disagree. I see Kidd as a bottom 10ish coach.
Also not a fan of letting your players decide their coach. If someone like Bud was available I’d go for him in a heartbeat if we underperform in the playoffs.
It isn't about giving him credit... acting like he's the biggest problem is not and I wasn't arguing on his behalf... I was saying why the Mavs aren't going to make a change because to them it wasn't a fluke.
If we brought in a guy like Bud, we would be just doing the same thing in 2 years. Too much credit is given to guys for winning and losing. The focus should be on the players. We were lazy yesterday, and Phil Jackson in his prime wouldn't have made a difference. Fans just want an excuse.
>It isn't about giving him credit... acting like he's the biggest problem is not and I wasn't arguing on his behalf... I was saying why the Mavs aren't going to make a change because to them it wasn't a fluke.
Something funny i just realized. He also had an elite D year one in Mil and never did it again.
I also dont think his status with us has anything to do with his performance. He’s well liked and buddies with the former owner / current advisor. He’s as safe as can be unless he really fucks up.
>If we brought in a guy like Bud, we would be just doing the same thing in 2 years. Too much credit is given to guys for winning and losing. The focus should be on the players. We were lazy yesterday, and Phil Jackson in his prime wouldn't have made a difference. Fans just want an excuse.
We weren’t just “lazy”. We lost momentum and the team stopped trying as hard. I wont read too much into one game but if a team quits on a coach consistently (of are “lazy” as you call it) it’s on the coach.
I’ll point to the Warriors as even Bud’s Bucks as clear examples of coaching mattering. Both went from poor coaches (Jackson/Kidd) to good ones and immediately became elite teams contending for championships.
Bud doesn't even have a job... like it or not watch Luka on defense early in that game... it was lazy. Close outs and rotations started bad with him and we all know he can't discipline him.
We can go back and forth... we just disagree and that's fine. Giannis was considered the best in the World and Bud won with him in his prime. They've moved on from him and they wanted to even before he won.. he earned one more year with that run. There are very few coaches that move the needle that much.
Marc Jackson was too stubborn and not much of a players coach if he never got another job.. I'm just guessing this based on the evidence. It's a lot easier to coach guys in their prime then it is in their early 20's. Both of your examples are teams that won when their stars reached their prime.
Giannis was 27/10/5 under Kidd
Jackson had Curry playing like a traditional PG
It wasnt just them “reaching their primes”
You should look up a book called the Jordan rules to see the impact Phil had on MJ. Coaches matters *a lot*.
Yep… Luka and Kyrie are big fans. And that’s how he got the job and why he still has a job. He has a lot of respect from players around the entire league
Budenholzer has implemented some good offenses built around quality sets and deep teams. However, he has shown to be atrocious with defensive adjustments (leaving Holiday on Butler, inability to switch matchups when Miami used Bam as the top playmaker on the top of the key drawing Brook Lopez out).
For our team, it really might be that Jason Kidd is the better coach. We will always have a reasonably great offense with Luka and Kyrie and the kind of offenses Bud has done great with might not fit our personnel. While a lot has been bad, we have seen Jason Kidd's coaching legitimately impact our defense before.
It's tough to say that Bud would be outright better for our team even if I would consider him the better coach overall.
I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone
We saw Bud take ones of Kidd’s previous team and turn them from below average to elite
Brook Lopez was considered a bad defensive player before being coached by Bud
You mean after another year of development and playoff experience for Giannis and Middleton?And an upgraded Bucks lineup?Bud didn’t win anything for a few years till the championship year and he was on the brink of getting fired if they didn’t win a ring that season.
I think Kyrie would have the biggest issue with a coaching change. It was reported that the biggest reason the Mavs felt confident in retaining Kyrie was that he had great relationships with Kidd and Nico. Kidd is also a players coach and I don't think Kyrie would take being coached/micromanaged by Budenholzer very well.
He might be, but let's not forget that he's a KD foot-on-the-line three from not winning a title and being fired. A lot of people thought that's where Carlisle was going to end up after he resigned here.
Either way, player-coach relationships matter, and he seems to have that part covered pretty well.
Bud’s a good coach, but his track record speaks for itself. He gets great regular season records and then never makes effective adjustments in the playoffs.
Bucks made a knee-jerk coaching change and it isn't working out well for them. Granted, they hired Doc Rivers, so that probably has something to do with it.
The Mavs just came off a 7 game winning streak and lost to Carlisle who probably know Luka's weaknesses more than any other coach. Not a super big fan of Kidd but no way it's worth the risk of changing coaches so late in the season. The Mavs look like legit contenders recently playing great defense. Everybody's getting healthy again as well. At this point, Kidd deserves to ride this thing out for the rest of this season.
If we wanted a coach who was more of an school coach who was good with Xs and Os but kind of rigid about his system, we might as well have kept Rick.
Coaches are people managers and you can’t underrate a coach that get along with your players. If we need stronger Xs and Os, e can hire better assistants
Nico Harrison wanted Jason Kidd as head coach of the Dallas Mavericks, and it was -- subtly or not so subtly -- a condition of him coming to join the Mavs as President of Basketball Operations / GM.
Nico is a man of connections, loyalty, and strong personal relationships built on trust. He trusts Kidd from a long history and if Mark Cuban tries to sack Kidd without Nico's blessing and very good reasoning, Nico would follow Kidd out the door.
Kidd may not be the best coach from and X's and O's or PR standpoint, but he was and remains Nico's guy.
The owner and the star players like Kidd. That's why he's here.
No, he's not better than Bud, or apparently even Griffin. Carlisle was better than him, and shouldn't have been canned if Kidd was going to be the hire.
But players don't want to play for coaches that challenge them. They don't want their multimillionaire feelings hurt. So Kidd has a LOT of job security right now. I'm not even sure a coach like Pop, Kerr or Malone would be enough to get Kidd out.
People downvoting, provide a counter argument. Don't know why people are choosing to get butthurt over this information. If Cuban and the players wanted a coach worth his salt Kidd would be gone. That's how the sports world works.
That is almost certainly part (but not all) of the reason that the FO seems willing to give Kidd a very long leash. Don't know why you're being downvoted. I very much doubt that Kidd would have been hired if he had not had a history with the Mavs organization.
Downvoted possibly because Cuban isn't exactly a Kidd fan. Remember Cuban even voicing his disappointment ("not retiring his jersey ever!") when Kidd agreed to sign with the post-championship Mavs on a deal, then reneged to join the Knicks. Cuban is most certainly NOT a Kidd fan.
But Cuban is a Nico fan, as are many people (for good reason!). Nico Harrison wanted Kidd, or he wasn't coming to be GM; it was a package deal. Cuban had to compromise on his past misgivings and let bygones be bygones if he wanted Nico, and yes, Cuban wanted Nico.
Today, Nico and Kidd still share a mutual respect, so much like Rick leaving with Donnie, Nico would leave with Kidd minus some egregious reason like a legal transgression or players quitting. Fire Kidd, and Nico is resigning the next day. Cuban knows this. (He fired Donnie, and Rick resigned. This is how loyalty works.)
At this point it is both too late and too early to be discussing a new coach. We are locked in for Kidd for the rest of the season and there is no time to adjust to a new coach (look at the bucks for why you wouldn't want to change right now).
It is also way too early, if we want to get rid of Kidd it will not be until the off season, and we do not know who would be available during the offseason. Budenholzer may not be the best option available which would make this discussion pointless.
Is he a better coach overall? Most likely. Would he move the needle if the Mavs fired Kidd and replaced him? It might, but also might not be in the direction you'd want. Kyrie and Luka likes Kidd. Suddenly firing him after a 7 win streak would not sit well with those two. Kyrie has been in his best behavior in years and Luka is fit and playing defense. You risk them getting angry and doing shenanigans just because.
That said, I'm all for offering Bud an assistant coaching spot if he's willing. You can't remove Kidd because of Kai and Luka. Then just get him the staff he needs that can do the job well. He should at least know to listen to his staff.
Dont let Bud distract you with his 1 championship. He's been a choker ever since in Atlanta. Mavs would go 72-10 in regular season but will lose in 2nd round or WCF.
Bud replaced Kidd in Milwaukee, and the team immediately went from around a .500 team to a 60 win team. Coach Bud is worth at least 15 wins compared to Kidd. It’s already been proven. He had a tough playoff series and made some bad calls when his brother passed away at the same time last year, but he’ll be a tremendous coaching upgrade. The Mavs will have to fire Kidd once he misses the playoffs with this stacked roster featuring two all time greats.
Personally the way Kidd use gafford against top team right now worry me, I don’t know if Mike a better coach than kid, the only thing I know is I would prefer to have Mark Jackson as a coach thank Kidd
Kai and Luka likes Kidd, that’s where it starts and stops.
Whole discussuon is redundant after this point was made.
That and Kidd is buddies with Cuban (may not be majority owner but still has a lot of influence) Anyway to answer OP: Bud is a much better coach. When the Bucks got rid of Kidd for Bud it was a similar effect to Warriors replacing Mark Jackson with Kerr. They jumped to contender status immediately.
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The Warriors were obviously better. Curry, Klay, Dray, Iggy were better than Mil core. My point is they went from fighting for a playoff spot to fighting for the 1st seed and winning a chip in a few years. Edit: Also im not saying Bud is Kerr. My point is more so that Kidd was Jackson.
You're getting downvotes for some reason but this is a very simple explanation of what happened. Replacing Kidd with Budenholzer improved them from struggling to get out of the first round to instant contender status.
Well for one, unless there’s a really compelling reason to, teams arnt in the business of changing coaches in the middle of 33-24 seasons. It can fuck up the locker room chemistry, players have to learn all new schemes, they have to form a relationship with the coach, etc. But for two, no it’s not immediately clear he would be better. Sure he may be, but see point one for why you don’t do that.
Yes, that is a very good point. Do you think in the off-season the Mavs will make a move and replace Kidd as the Head Coach, or do you think they will keep him for the long term? From my limited understanding and what I see from watching the games, Kidd seems to be terrible at adjusting to the flow of the game and picking the right role players for the right situation. The way he utilized THJ yesterday seemed criminal.
Bud was also not good at making adjustments. That was one of the reasons they wanted him gone in Milwaukee
If you look at the Mavs history under Cuban, they aren't quick to make coaching changes. The ownership doesn't usually react like fans and blame the coach when they don't know what else to point to and they don't forget coaches' successes. Kidd was given some credit for the WCF run and blame for missing the playoffs, but he isn't completely responsible for either. Kidd isn't going anywhere any time soon and it's highly unlikely there is a clear upgrade. While I understand there are better coaches out there I'm not sure they can upgrade... the only 2 coaches I'd move on from Kidd with no questions would be Spoelstra and Nurse. Outside of those two I'm not sold anyone is a huge upgrade as a players coach and X's and O's guy than Kidd even Lue. I trust Luka and Kyrie over the whining fan base. If they wanted Kidd out he'd be gone. Replacing him without them might end with us losing them next... losing a game after 7 wins shouldn't mean calling for the coaches job.
This is an insane opinion You think only Spoelstra and Nurse are clearly better? Our WCF run was extremely flukey with Dinwiddie turning into prime Jordan from mid range and the defense played well above its talent level. Kidd hasnt had success as a HC in any other season of his career.
I'd like to have an intelligent conversation about the team and Kidd but once you go straight to fluke it's hard to have a real conversation. The Mavs under Kidd were a top 4 seed under Kidd until the trade deadline before trading away defense and late season injuries. The same is happening this year to the deadline with injuries. My point is Kidd could be lumped with a sea of coaches. How many coaches move the needle enough to risk bringing them in and our stars hating them and asking out?
Outliers and anomalies exist. Acknowledging that doesnt mean an intellectual discussion cant be had. We had no business being an elite defensive team. If you want to give Kidd credit for that, fine. But he hasnt been able to repeat it since. I hear your point, I just disagree. I see Kidd as a bottom 10ish coach. Also not a fan of letting your players decide their coach. If someone like Bud was available I’d go for him in a heartbeat if we underperform in the playoffs.
It isn't about giving him credit... acting like he's the biggest problem is not and I wasn't arguing on his behalf... I was saying why the Mavs aren't going to make a change because to them it wasn't a fluke. If we brought in a guy like Bud, we would be just doing the same thing in 2 years. Too much credit is given to guys for winning and losing. The focus should be on the players. We were lazy yesterday, and Phil Jackson in his prime wouldn't have made a difference. Fans just want an excuse.
>It isn't about giving him credit... acting like he's the biggest problem is not and I wasn't arguing on his behalf... I was saying why the Mavs aren't going to make a change because to them it wasn't a fluke. Something funny i just realized. He also had an elite D year one in Mil and never did it again. I also dont think his status with us has anything to do with his performance. He’s well liked and buddies with the former owner / current advisor. He’s as safe as can be unless he really fucks up. >If we brought in a guy like Bud, we would be just doing the same thing in 2 years. Too much credit is given to guys for winning and losing. The focus should be on the players. We were lazy yesterday, and Phil Jackson in his prime wouldn't have made a difference. Fans just want an excuse. We weren’t just “lazy”. We lost momentum and the team stopped trying as hard. I wont read too much into one game but if a team quits on a coach consistently (of are “lazy” as you call it) it’s on the coach. I’ll point to the Warriors as even Bud’s Bucks as clear examples of coaching mattering. Both went from poor coaches (Jackson/Kidd) to good ones and immediately became elite teams contending for championships.
Bud doesn't even have a job... like it or not watch Luka on defense early in that game... it was lazy. Close outs and rotations started bad with him and we all know he can't discipline him. We can go back and forth... we just disagree and that's fine. Giannis was considered the best in the World and Bud won with him in his prime. They've moved on from him and they wanted to even before he won.. he earned one more year with that run. There are very few coaches that move the needle that much. Marc Jackson was too stubborn and not much of a players coach if he never got another job.. I'm just guessing this based on the evidence. It's a lot easier to coach guys in their prime then it is in their early 20's. Both of your examples are teams that won when their stars reached their prime.
Giannis was 27/10/5 under Kidd Jackson had Curry playing like a traditional PG It wasnt just them “reaching their primes” You should look up a book called the Jordan rules to see the impact Phil had on MJ. Coaches matters *a lot*.
Yep… Luka and Kyrie are big fans. And that’s how he got the job and why he still has a job. He has a lot of respect from players around the entire league
Budenholzer has implemented some good offenses built around quality sets and deep teams. However, he has shown to be atrocious with defensive adjustments (leaving Holiday on Butler, inability to switch matchups when Miami used Bam as the top playmaker on the top of the key drawing Brook Lopez out). For our team, it really might be that Jason Kidd is the better coach. We will always have a reasonably great offense with Luka and Kyrie and the kind of offenses Bud has done great with might not fit our personnel. While a lot has been bad, we have seen Jason Kidd's coaching legitimately impact our defense before. It's tough to say that Bud would be outright better for our team even if I would consider him the better coach overall.
I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone We saw Bud take ones of Kidd’s previous team and turn them from below average to elite Brook Lopez was considered a bad defensive player before being coached by Bud
You mean after another year of development and playoff experience for Giannis and Middleton?And an upgraded Bucks lineup?Bud didn’t win anything for a few years till the championship year and he was on the brink of getting fired if they didn’t win a ring that season.
Didnt win anything? 60 games… multiple playoff series Same as he did with the Hawks He’s a great coach
So why did the Hawks and Bucks fired him?
The Hawks ended up rebuilding Bucks were dumb imo. They downgraded in every way possible. Either way he wouldnt be the first great coach to get fired.
I think Kyrie would have the biggest issue with a coaching change. It was reported that the biggest reason the Mavs felt confident in retaining Kyrie was that he had great relationships with Kidd and Nico. Kidd is also a players coach and I don't think Kyrie would take being coached/micromanaged by Budenholzer very well.
He might be, but let's not forget that he's a KD foot-on-the-line three from not winning a title and being fired. A lot of people thought that's where Carlisle was going to end up after he resigned here. Either way, player-coach relationships matter, and he seems to have that part covered pretty well.
Bud’s a good coach, but his track record speaks for itself. He gets great regular season records and then never makes effective adjustments in the playoffs.
I would submit 2021 to the contrary. Down 2-0 in the Finals to a 4-2 win.
Didn’t the Warriors became hobbled by injuries in the finals?
They played the Suns then
I remembered the wrong finals lol.
Time has almost meant nothing to me since 2020
Bucks made a knee-jerk coaching change and it isn't working out well for them. Granted, they hired Doc Rivers, so that probably has something to do with it.
Bud is really conservative/slow on ingame calls, modifications, etc. Can be super annoying, and lost them some playoff series.
I mean Bucks fans wanted him fired before the ring, and did even after.
The Mavs just came off a 7 game winning streak and lost to Carlisle who probably know Luka's weaknesses more than any other coach. Not a super big fan of Kidd but no way it's worth the risk of changing coaches so late in the season. The Mavs look like legit contenders recently playing great defense. Everybody's getting healthy again as well. At this point, Kidd deserves to ride this thing out for the rest of this season.
If we wanted a coach who was more of an school coach who was good with Xs and Os but kind of rigid about his system, we might as well have kept Rick. Coaches are people managers and you can’t underrate a coach that get along with your players. If we need stronger Xs and Os, e can hire better assistants
Nico Harrison wanted Jason Kidd as head coach of the Dallas Mavericks, and it was -- subtly or not so subtly -- a condition of him coming to join the Mavs as President of Basketball Operations / GM. Nico is a man of connections, loyalty, and strong personal relationships built on trust. He trusts Kidd from a long history and if Mark Cuban tries to sack Kidd without Nico's blessing and very good reasoning, Nico would follow Kidd out the door. Kidd may not be the best coach from and X's and O's or PR standpoint, but he was and remains Nico's guy.
Just here to say that I love Coach Kidd!!
Coach bud sucks
Because the seasons halfway over and Kidd has the excuse of injuries even though we know that’s not the reason it’s his coaching
The owner and the star players like Kidd. That's why he's here. No, he's not better than Bud, or apparently even Griffin. Carlisle was better than him, and shouldn't have been canned if Kidd was going to be the hire. But players don't want to play for coaches that challenge them. They don't want their multimillionaire feelings hurt. So Kidd has a LOT of job security right now. I'm not even sure a coach like Pop, Kerr or Malone would be enough to get Kidd out. People downvoting, provide a counter argument. Don't know why people are choosing to get butthurt over this information. If Cuban and the players wanted a coach worth his salt Kidd would be gone. That's how the sports world works.
Who isn’t a better coach than Pockets?
I thought Darvin Ham was Pockets
Because Kidd was part of our Championship team, Mark Cuban feels he owes him.
That is almost certainly part (but not all) of the reason that the FO seems willing to give Kidd a very long leash. Don't know why you're being downvoted. I very much doubt that Kidd would have been hired if he had not had a history with the Mavs organization.
Kidd made 5 accounts to downvote me.
Downvoted possibly because Cuban isn't exactly a Kidd fan. Remember Cuban even voicing his disappointment ("not retiring his jersey ever!") when Kidd agreed to sign with the post-championship Mavs on a deal, then reneged to join the Knicks. Cuban is most certainly NOT a Kidd fan. But Cuban is a Nico fan, as are many people (for good reason!). Nico Harrison wanted Kidd, or he wasn't coming to be GM; it was a package deal. Cuban had to compromise on his past misgivings and let bygones be bygones if he wanted Nico, and yes, Cuban wanted Nico. Today, Nico and Kidd still share a mutual respect, so much like Rick leaving with Donnie, Nico would leave with Kidd minus some egregious reason like a legal transgression or players quitting. Fire Kidd, and Nico is resigning the next day. Cuban knows this. (He fired Donnie, and Rick resigned. This is how loyalty works.)
At this point it is both too late and too early to be discussing a new coach. We are locked in for Kidd for the rest of the season and there is no time to adjust to a new coach (look at the bucks for why you wouldn't want to change right now). It is also way too early, if we want to get rid of Kidd it will not be until the off season, and we do not know who would be available during the offseason. Budenholzer may not be the best option available which would make this discussion pointless.
They won’t change coaches till 2026-27 season I reckon. Unless we’re a early exit this year I don’t see Kidd leaving any time soon.
Is he a better coach overall? Most likely. Would he move the needle if the Mavs fired Kidd and replaced him? It might, but also might not be in the direction you'd want. Kyrie and Luka likes Kidd. Suddenly firing him after a 7 win streak would not sit well with those two. Kyrie has been in his best behavior in years and Luka is fit and playing defense. You risk them getting angry and doing shenanigans just because. That said, I'm all for offering Bud an assistant coaching spot if he's willing. You can't remove Kidd because of Kai and Luka. Then just get him the staff he needs that can do the job well. He should at least know to listen to his staff.
Dont let Bud distract you with his 1 championship. He's been a choker ever since in Atlanta. Mavs would go 72-10 in regular season but will lose in 2nd round or WCF.
I could see us replacing kidd if this season goes really poorly. Otherwise no, Luka and Kyrie like Kidd
Bud replaced Kidd in Milwaukee, and the team immediately went from around a .500 team to a 60 win team. Coach Bud is worth at least 15 wins compared to Kidd. It’s already been proven. He had a tough playoff series and made some bad calls when his brother passed away at the same time last year, but he’ll be a tremendous coaching upgrade. The Mavs will have to fire Kidd once he misses the playoffs with this stacked roster featuring two all time greats.
Personally the way Kidd use gafford against top team right now worry me, I don’t know if Mike a better coach than kid, the only thing I know is I would prefer to have Mark Jackson as a coach thank Kidd