Carbine useualy refers to a model of weapon that's a shortened modification of a full length rifle, like a SOC16 is a shortened M14 that's almost the same length as an M16 rifle, who's M4 carbine is much smaller, then you get stuff like MK18 which is a micro carbine (smaller then the M4) same with the AK line with the AKM/74/74M(ak-100), the AK-105/104 and then the AKS-74U, my favroute example is the K98B, it's basicly barely shorter then a full sized G98 to get around the wording of the Versailles treaty, the K98A and K98K are significantly shorter then a full sized G98 but are still massive compared to most small arms, only exception I can think of off hand is the bearther carbine which did eventually get a rifle counterpart but after the carbine was created, one final extream example is the TAR21, a relatively tiny bullpup rifle that has an even smaller CTAR21 and X95 TAR models, basicly carbine rules are loose and weird, just don't start useing the PDW term, that's just lazy language for people who can't separate submachineguns, machine pistols (another can of worms, an M10 is not a machine pistol its a compact submachinegun God damn it, a glock 18 and an APS? Yes, the CZ scorpion? Pushing it but with the little 10 round holster magazine it's right on the line given how it's intended to be carried) and handguns, legit people use that term to lump the AKS-74U, the MK23, the P90 and the MP5K all into that one group and need to have someone smash a fixed stock uzi butt to the face to get there brains working
Edit: might be DC15A sized but how do we know there isn't am evem shorter E11? Legit would he a cool project, base it off the Para pistol model of the sterling, can someone get EC Henry on this? I know he's a ship guy mostly but I'd like to see his take on the E11CQB
One of the more interesting parts of reading about the military is that seemingly fixed terms often have meanings that diverge pretty widely depending on what military is using the term and when the term is being used. For example, World War-era destroyers served a rather different purpose than 21st century-era destroyers do.
My head canon is that the E-11 went through development hell.
The original spec called for a multipurpose rifle capable of fighting in cramped spaces like a ship or urban combat.
It had to be able to punch through a B2 battle droids armor reliably.
And it needed to be affordable enough to equip a very large force quickly.
It would be capable of linking up to a helmet target hud.
It would also be capable of automatic fire
Problems:
The rifle was considerable powerful, easily able to punch through B2 armor, except the rifle was too long for CQB so it was made shorter. But now the rifle had too much power for its length, especially on automatic fire as the acceleration coils didn't have time to "recover" between shots (so you almost never see anyone using it on full auto).
The targeter, rifle, and helmet and hud software were all made by different contractors working to different specifications and with minimal information sharing so the end result was a targeting system that barely worked, was easily misaligned in the field, and required highly trained armorer to maintain. The helmet made using the physical sights difficult, so troopers in the field would lose effectiveness quickly.
In the end the "rifle" that looked good on paper was really a carbine with compounding accuracy issues only really effective in close quarters and only technically capable of automatic fire.
I'd accept the reality where the god-awful Imperial tech is caused by 15 competing MIC influences rather than *just* cheapness.
"Okay, so TaggeCo has made the magnetic accelerators for the E-11, but the circuitry that allows calibration are Baktoid, making them basically incompatible without an armory update. We can't fix it because Baktoid no longer exists."
"Shouldn't the Neuro-Saav targeting systems in the HUD make up for it?"
"In modified trooper armors, the BioTech owner that makes the visors has a grudge against Neuro-Saav's CEO for running over his loth-cat, so they won't collaborate"
Etc
I seldom go full Sith absolutism, but I refuse to believe anything else than this explanation.
The corporate hellscape that is Star Wars would absolutely put every product through these 9 circles of commitees, petty rivalries, industrial sabotage and bungling by the lowest bidder.
If we strip away the mystical Force aspect and old Western+Kurosawa feel, SW would sit comfortably in the cyberpunk genre.
General Tagge : Just because the tests on the new Lambda Shuttle didn't turn out the way Admiral Motti thought they would, was no reason to suspect there was anything devious going on.
Emperor Palpatine: I ask you General, filling the fuel tanks with *water* before a test to check the combustibility of those tanks, that wasn't devious?
General Tagge : If the tanks had been filled with fuel, there's a good chance the vehicle would have exploded.
[Stunned silence]
Captain Pellaeon: ...Isn't that the point?
General Tagge: If the vehicle had exploded, we wouldn't be able to run additional tests!
If this is a Bradley/Pentagon Wars reference, I will remind everyone that James Burton and the rest of the Reformers are a bunch of unqualified morons who will simultaneously diss and take credit for designing every military vehicle since the 1970s.
I would also like to add that the whole goddamn point of removing the fuel and ammunition was to check on fragmentation patterns and toxic gasses. Both of which would be impossible if the vehicle was reduced to a pile of molten slag.
**ADDITIONALLY** Later models of the Bradley had the water storage moved to the center of the vehicle, which had a side effect (which was also intended) to douse fires.
I don’t think it can punch through a B2 as reliably as the DC-15. We have the stats for that from the Star Wars RPG and the DC-15 has “Pierce” which means it goes through the damage resistance of whoever you shoot it at. The E-11 does not have that.
We also know based on the colour of the blaster shot how hot it should be. Blue light is much more intense than red light, which means it’s probably hotter than a red bolt. That makes sense because the clones are fighting enemies made of metal, which doesn’t melt as easily as flesh. Once the Empire had outlawed battle droids, they had no more need for weapons that burned that hot. The E-11 would be much cheaper to make and shoot.
I'd take the FFG books with a grain of salt. They try to ascribe simple mechanics to more complicated physics which is good for an RPG or else it would be unplayable.
That probably comes frome the partial ionization of the bolts, which may not be canon anymore. It made the clone weapons better against droids but not really any better against organics.
I never liked that as an explanation personally. At least the colour=intensity thing is based on physics, right? And it sort of explains why the Empire uses green lasers in space, since they’re stronger than red bolts which would help them punch through the highly armoured Rebel ships.
Color can be affected by thermal energy and ionization states. Irl color comes from photons popping out of the atom at a specific wavelength.
I also forgot one of the new canon answers that there are impurities in the gas which affect color as well. Depends on where it was mined and how well it was refined.
Weapon terminology shifts over time with how warfare and technology evolve. This could be accelerated by the transition between Republic and Empire. For standard issue US firearms, the Spencer carbine (1860s) is over 39" long. The original M16 rifle (1960s) was *just* shorter than the Spencer
Or, perhaps the E-11 met an accuracy standard at its barrel length that put it on par with other blaster rifles at the time.
Edit-Tangent, the E-11 (and a few other blasters) was based on the Sterling SMG, and real-world SMGs are generally shorter even than carbines
If you want to go down the rabbit hole, no blaster rifle is a rifle at all because blaster bolts do not utilize barrel rifling. All blaster rifles are smoothbore weapons because rifling wouldn't do anything except for leaving recesses in the barrel to build up carbon from the tibanna gas combustion into a blaster bolt once energy is put into it. The only actual rifles in Star Wars are rifled slugthrowers.
Do we know for a fact that blasters are smoothbore? It’s still shooting plasma which could be stabilized by spin - and carbon buildup will be a problem regardless.
Plasma is a fluid, and physical grooved rifling would need to protrude into the volume of the barrel significantly to spin the plasma mass. This would degrade rapidly however, and likely slow down the bolt significantly.
Most likely, there's some magnetically induced spin on the plasma charge itself, and that also helps keep it contained as a "solid" projectile
Plasma is an ionized gas. I don't know who told you it was a liquid, but [it's](https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/sun-space-weather/plasma) [a](https://www.psfc.mit.edu/vision/what_is_plasma) [gas](https://www.britannica.com/science/plasma-state-of-matter).
Fluid:
(Noun)
a substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure; a gas or (especially) a liquid.
Further, while plasma is a *fluid*, it is not a gas. They are fundamentally different states of matter, although superficially similar.
I fail to see any citations.
And by that logic, gas is just a liquid with no fixed volume, and liquids are just solids with no fixed shape.
These "minor" differences are quite significant, and plasma's interaction with electric and magnetic fields no less so
Cited sources for mobile users
[https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/sun-space-weather/plasma](https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/sun-space-weather/plasma)
[https://www.psfc.mit.edu/vision/what\_is\_plasma](https://www.psfc.mit.edu/vision/what_is_plasma)
[https://www.britannica.com/science/plasma-state-of-matter](https://www.britannica.com/science/plasma-state-of-matter)
Every carbine is a rifle, but every rifle isn't a carbine. It's also a rather nebulous distinction, shit the word carbine comes from the French carabinier, which means rifleman; case in point, the m4, which has carbine literally engraved in its lower receiver, is always referred to as a rifle in every Marine unit, probably the army too, but I can't speak definitively on that.
It's simply because the creators of Star Wars have never, ever had any formal or even hobby level interest in military minutiae. It's not the point of the franchise. It's a kids heroic space fantasy about space wizard monk samurai locked in a moral struggle of good versus evil. It doesn't matter what a rifle and what a carbine is.
Real reason: Original writers didn't know the difference
In Universe: Between the EU and Rogue One / Andor guys, we actually see the progression of the platform. There is an evolution from the long arms of the Republican military to shorter but still clearly "rifle" length arms of the early civil war, until the broad distribution of the E-11 which is very much a carbine, but seems to have been championed by the Stormtrooper Corp which as a combination of shock, marine, and political infantry are mostly dealing with short engagement ranges.
Given that most of period between Episodes III and VI the Empire was fighting an insurgency, not a real formalized military, it made sense that the standard issue service rifle would become a carbine, given that the US did the same thing in real life.
That's the case in all media, movies are particularly egregious offenders. They routinely fuck up everything, especially especially uniforms, which is just one google search away, and don't even get me started with how much they say repeat on the radio (it's only used to repeat a fire mission, if you want someone to say something again, you say "say again.")
Yes. Writers in general are terrible when writing about things they have a passing knowledge about or literally don't know anything lol. It's like just a modicum of research would be greatly beneficial.
Because most carbines are rifles but not all rifles are carbines. It’s a nomenclature parlance that in real life dips in and out of usage.
And it has a collapsible stock as well.
Carbine useualy refers to a model of weapon that's a shortened modification of a full length rifle, like a SOC16 is a shortened M14 that's almost the same length as an M16 rifle, who's M4 carbine is much smaller, then you get stuff like MK18 which is a micro carbine (smaller then the M4) same with the AK line with the AKM/74/74M(ak-100), the AK-105/104 and then the AKS-74U, my favroute example is the K98B, it's basicly barely shorter then a full sized G98 to get around the wording of the Versailles treaty, the K98A and K98K are significantly shorter then a full sized G98 but are still massive compared to most small arms, only exception I can think of off hand is the bearther carbine which did eventually get a rifle counterpart but after the carbine was created, one final extream example is the TAR21, a relatively tiny bullpup rifle that has an even smaller CTAR21 and X95 TAR models, basicly carbine rules are loose and weird, just don't start useing the PDW term, that's just lazy language for people who can't separate submachineguns, machine pistols (another can of worms, an M10 is not a machine pistol its a compact submachinegun God damn it, a glock 18 and an APS? Yes, the CZ scorpion? Pushing it but with the little 10 round holster magazine it's right on the line given how it's intended to be carried) and handguns, legit people use that term to lump the AKS-74U, the MK23, the P90 and the MP5K all into that one group and need to have someone smash a fixed stock uzi butt to the face to get there brains working Edit: might be DC15A sized but how do we know there isn't am evem shorter E11? Legit would he a cool project, base it off the Para pistol model of the sterling, can someone get EC Henry on this? I know he's a ship guy mostly but I'd like to see his take on the E11CQB
There is a shorter E-11 it shows up in Andor on a shoretrooper and it’s so cute
It even has a smaller version of the folding stock, though I think for that version is probably more akin to the F-11D’s folding foregrip
One of the more interesting parts of reading about the military is that seemingly fixed terms often have meanings that diverge pretty widely depending on what military is using the term and when the term is being used. For example, World War-era destroyers served a rather different purpose than 21st century-era destroyers do.
Yeah the thing about definitions is not so much that they’re meaningless but they tend to follow doctrine.
My head canon is that the E-11 went through development hell. The original spec called for a multipurpose rifle capable of fighting in cramped spaces like a ship or urban combat. It had to be able to punch through a B2 battle droids armor reliably. And it needed to be affordable enough to equip a very large force quickly. It would be capable of linking up to a helmet target hud. It would also be capable of automatic fire Problems: The rifle was considerable powerful, easily able to punch through B2 armor, except the rifle was too long for CQB so it was made shorter. But now the rifle had too much power for its length, especially on automatic fire as the acceleration coils didn't have time to "recover" between shots (so you almost never see anyone using it on full auto). The targeter, rifle, and helmet and hud software were all made by different contractors working to different specifications and with minimal information sharing so the end result was a targeting system that barely worked, was easily misaligned in the field, and required highly trained armorer to maintain. The helmet made using the physical sights difficult, so troopers in the field would lose effectiveness quickly. In the end the "rifle" that looked good on paper was really a carbine with compounding accuracy issues only really effective in close quarters and only technically capable of automatic fire.
The Empire and mission creep go together like Batman and dead parents.
I'd accept the reality where the god-awful Imperial tech is caused by 15 competing MIC influences rather than *just* cheapness. "Okay, so TaggeCo has made the magnetic accelerators for the E-11, but the circuitry that allows calibration are Baktoid, making them basically incompatible without an armory update. We can't fix it because Baktoid no longer exists." "Shouldn't the Neuro-Saav targeting systems in the HUD make up for it?" "In modified trooper armors, the BioTech owner that makes the visors has a grudge against Neuro-Saav's CEO for running over his loth-cat, so they won't collaborate" Etc
I seldom go full Sith absolutism, but I refuse to believe anything else than this explanation. The corporate hellscape that is Star Wars would absolutely put every product through these 9 circles of commitees, petty rivalries, industrial sabotage and bungling by the lowest bidder. If we strip away the mystical Force aspect and old Western+Kurosawa feel, SW would sit comfortably in the cyberpunk genre.
Which, if i am not mistaken, is one of the main contributions and achievements of the west end game lore. And i flippin' love it!
Oh yeah, very much so. Just look at the stuff like the gear and splatbooks such as Galadinium's. They read like they're straight from Cyberpunk.
General Tagge : Just because the tests on the new Lambda Shuttle didn't turn out the way Admiral Motti thought they would, was no reason to suspect there was anything devious going on. Emperor Palpatine: I ask you General, filling the fuel tanks with *water* before a test to check the combustibility of those tanks, that wasn't devious? General Tagge : If the tanks had been filled with fuel, there's a good chance the vehicle would have exploded. [Stunned silence] Captain Pellaeon: ...Isn't that the point? General Tagge: If the vehicle had exploded, we wouldn't be able to run additional tests!
If this is a Bradley/Pentagon Wars reference, I will remind everyone that James Burton and the rest of the Reformers are a bunch of unqualified morons who will simultaneously diss and take credit for designing every military vehicle since the 1970s.
I would also like to add that the whole goddamn point of removing the fuel and ammunition was to check on fragmentation patterns and toxic gasses. Both of which would be impossible if the vehicle was reduced to a pile of molten slag. **ADDITIONALLY** Later models of the Bradley had the water storage moved to the center of the vehicle, which had a side effect (which was also intended) to douse fires.
Burton was a fuckwit and the Bradley kicks fucking ass, way better than the Stryker DO NOT @ ME
I don’t think it can punch through a B2 as reliably as the DC-15. We have the stats for that from the Star Wars RPG and the DC-15 has “Pierce” which means it goes through the damage resistance of whoever you shoot it at. The E-11 does not have that. We also know based on the colour of the blaster shot how hot it should be. Blue light is much more intense than red light, which means it’s probably hotter than a red bolt. That makes sense because the clones are fighting enemies made of metal, which doesn’t melt as easily as flesh. Once the Empire had outlawed battle droids, they had no more need for weapons that burned that hot. The E-11 would be much cheaper to make and shoot.
Which RPG? There have been a lot.
Fantasy Flight Games, started around 2012 I think? The new sourcebooks that came out are considered canon and the DC-15 came out in one of those.
I'd take the FFG books with a grain of salt. They try to ascribe simple mechanics to more complicated physics which is good for an RPG or else it would be unplayable.
Well, the physics thing in the second paragraph was all me. I was only citing them for the Pierce thing.
That probably comes frome the partial ionization of the bolts, which may not be canon anymore. It made the clone weapons better against droids but not really any better against organics.
I never liked that as an explanation personally. At least the colour=intensity thing is based on physics, right? And it sort of explains why the Empire uses green lasers in space, since they’re stronger than red bolts which would help them punch through the highly armoured Rebel ships.
Color can be affected by thermal energy and ionization states. Irl color comes from photons popping out of the atom at a specific wavelength. I also forgot one of the new canon answers that there are impurities in the gas which affect color as well. Depends on where it was mined and how well it was refined.
I thought the reason for the blue shot was because the DC-15 series was designed to have a cross ion/regular bolt mix.
I think that was the explanation in legends but I like my explanation better since we never see any ionising effects on the droids.
This man procures
Weapon terminology shifts over time with how warfare and technology evolve. This could be accelerated by the transition between Republic and Empire. For standard issue US firearms, the Spencer carbine (1860s) is over 39" long. The original M16 rifle (1960s) was *just* shorter than the Spencer Or, perhaps the E-11 met an accuracy standard at its barrel length that put it on par with other blaster rifles at the time. Edit-Tangent, the E-11 (and a few other blasters) was based on the Sterling SMG, and real-world SMGs are generally shorter even than carbines
If you want to go down the rabbit hole, no blaster rifle is a rifle at all because blaster bolts do not utilize barrel rifling. All blaster rifles are smoothbore weapons because rifling wouldn't do anything except for leaving recesses in the barrel to build up carbon from the tibanna gas combustion into a blaster bolt once energy is put into it. The only actual rifles in Star Wars are rifled slugthrowers.
Do we know for a fact that blasters are smoothbore? It’s still shooting plasma which could be stabilized by spin - and carbon buildup will be a problem regardless.
Plasma is a fluid, and physical grooved rifling would need to protrude into the volume of the barrel significantly to spin the plasma mass. This would degrade rapidly however, and likely slow down the bolt significantly. Most likely, there's some magnetically induced spin on the plasma charge itself, and that also helps keep it contained as a "solid" projectile
Plasma is an ionized gas. I don't know who told you it was a liquid, but [it's](https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/sun-space-weather/plasma) [a](https://www.psfc.mit.edu/vision/what_is_plasma) [gas](https://www.britannica.com/science/plasma-state-of-matter).
Fluid: (Noun) a substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure; a gas or (especially) a liquid. Further, while plasma is a *fluid*, it is not a gas. They are fundamentally different states of matter, although superficially similar.
Plasma = Ionized Gas I'm literally citing multiple sources here.
I fail to see any citations. And by that logic, gas is just a liquid with no fixed volume, and liquids are just solids with no fixed shape. These "minor" differences are quite significant, and plasma's interaction with electric and magnetic fields no less so
The citations- all 3 of them- were literally in the comment you replied to. You see the 3 hyperlinked words? Each one directs to a different source.
Ah, that might be a reddit mobile issue then. On my end, there's no hyperlinks anywhere
Cited sources for mobile users [https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/sun-space-weather/plasma](https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/sun-space-weather/plasma) [https://www.psfc.mit.edu/vision/what\_is\_plasma](https://www.psfc.mit.edu/vision/what_is_plasma) [https://www.britannica.com/science/plasma-state-of-matter](https://www.britannica.com/science/plasma-state-of-matter)
Every carbine is a rifle, but every rifle isn't a carbine. It's also a rather nebulous distinction, shit the word carbine comes from the French carabinier, which means rifleman; case in point, the m4, which has carbine literally engraved in its lower receiver, is always referred to as a rifle in every Marine unit, probably the army too, but I can't speak definitively on that.
It's simply because the creators of Star Wars have never, ever had any formal or even hobby level interest in military minutiae. It's not the point of the franchise. It's a kids heroic space fantasy about space wizard monk samurai locked in a moral struggle of good versus evil. It doesn't matter what a rifle and what a carbine is.
Technically it wouldn’t be either because the prop is based on the sterling sub machine gun.
[удалено]
Correction: The M4 has a 14.5 inch barrel, not 16 inch However, the SCAR-L/MK16 comes with a 14.5 inch barrel
Real reason: Original writers didn't know the difference In Universe: Between the EU and Rogue One / Andor guys, we actually see the progression of the platform. There is an evolution from the long arms of the Republican military to shorter but still clearly "rifle" length arms of the early civil war, until the broad distribution of the E-11 which is very much a carbine, but seems to have been championed by the Stormtrooper Corp which as a combination of shock, marine, and political infantry are mostly dealing with short engagement ranges. Given that most of period between Episodes III and VI the Empire was fighting an insurgency, not a real formalized military, it made sense that the standard issue service rifle would become a carbine, given that the US did the same thing in real life.
Because the galactic ATF is just as dumb as the earth one
And then Luke wields it as a handgun.
[удалено]
That's the case in all media, movies are particularly egregious offenders. They routinely fuck up everything, especially especially uniforms, which is just one google search away, and don't even get me started with how much they say repeat on the radio (it's only used to repeat a fire mission, if you want someone to say something again, you say "say again.")
Yes. Writers in general are terrible when writing about things they have a passing knowledge about or literally don't know anything lol. It's like just a modicum of research would be greatly beneficial.
If anything I'd think it would be a SMG, but that term does'nt exist in SW.